Look, I have been waiting years to say this and I just can’t hold back anymore. Science fiction is full of horrible dad figures. We know this. There are so many that we’d be hard pressed to decide the winner of that Battle Royale, particularly given the scope of their terribleness. Anakin Skywalker Force-choked his pregnant wife and tortured his daughter. Howard Stark emotionally abused his son into creating the “future” he wanted to bring about, and never managed to utter the words I love you. Admiral Adama made his eldest son feel totally inferior to both his dead son and his surrogate daughter, and then left him alone on a new world so he could spend three minutes with his dying paramour. Sci-fi dads are generally bad at their jobs.
But you know who it the absolutely worst? Spock’s dad.
Yeah. I’m looking at you, Sarek of Vulcan.
[Spoilers up to the latest episode of Star Trek: Discovery.]
Obviously, Sarek has done some truly incredible things in his life as both a citizen of Vulcan and ambassador for his people. Those accomplishments matter a great deal. But as a parent? He’s flunked out so many times, it’s amazing that they keep letting him retake the course. And then he adopts more children under the auspice of being the one who knows how to raise “kids with emotions” on Vulcan when he’s really the worst at it ever. The truth is, Sarek would probably be a better parent if he owned up to something that he clearly feels great shame over—that he, himself, is super emotional for a Vulcan and happens to enjoy being surrounded by humans and emotional beings for that exact reason. He never says so out loud, but there is so much—in his past and in his actions—that suggest so.
A lot of effort has been made in zines, fan fiction, and licensed novels, to dig deeper into Sarek’s psyche and show that he is more than what we see on screen. But what we know of Sarek from Trek television and film is oddly telling. See for example: his marriage to Amanda Grayson, Spock’s mother. On more than one occasion, Sarek insists that marrying Amanda made sense, given that he was the Vulcan ambassador to Earth. If he’s married to a human, he can better understand them. If he’s married to a human, he can observe one up close consistently. “Marrying your mother was logical,” he tells tiny Spock in the alternate timeline provided by the 2009 film series. (And yes, I will count those as alternate canon, you cannot stop me.) When adult Spock and his father razz Amanda over being emotional in “A Journey to Babel,” Spock asks his father why he married her and receives the same reply: “At the time, it seemed the logical thing to do.”
Because that’s what Sarek of Vulcan is all about, right? He’s a Vulcan and they’re logical, they never make rash decisions, they are cool like cucumbers or ice or liquid nitrogen. Vulcans are very chill, rational people, and Sarek is a great example of an amazing Vulcan. Case in point: that time he had an affair with a Vulcan princess who gave birth to a radical exile—
Wait a minute.
Because remember, Spock isn’t Sarek’s only blood-related child. There’s still Sybok to account for, the product of Sarek and said unnamed Vulcan princess. And also the question of whether or not Sarek and this Vulcan princess had a fling or a more prominent relationship. It’s all a bit confusing because Amanda Grayson is referred to as Sarek’s first wife, but the novelization of Star Trek V: The Final Frontier suggests that T’Rea (that’s the name given to the Vulcan Princess) and Sarek were subject to one of those childhood emotional bonds that some Vulcans undergo. It’s “less than a marriage but more than a betrothal,” the way Spock was bonded to T’Pring. Sybok was meant to be the product of their only coupling before T’Rea got super into Kolinahr (the Vulcan process of purging all emotion), and had their marriage annulled. But Sarek raised Sybok alongside Spock as though they were brothers…that is, until Sybok became such an emotional fanatic that he was banished from Vulcan.
Still, why should that be Sarek’s fault? That probably has nothing to do with his parenting! It’s unfair to blame anyone for the events of The Final Frontier, really. (Except maybe William Shatner.) But Sybok’s resurfacing does bring us to perhaps our first concrete exhibit of Sarek’s bad parenting skills: when Sybok hijacks the Enterprise, he converts Kirk’s crew to his side by helping them “release their pain.” Sybok has the ability to telepathically show people their worst memories and traumas, and when he arrives at Spock, the event we witness is his birth. A bawling baby is handed to Sarek, and the Vulcan ambassador looks on the infant with disdain. “So human,” he says, before handing the child off.
It would be surprising if this scenario happened exactly as Sybok reveals it. The truth is, as the audience, we’re never completely certain about the nature of his powers—is he really showing people their pasts, or is it the past according to their perception? After all, it’s unlikely that Spock could “remember” the moment of his birth, so how could Sybok project that for him? But if Sybok’s powers are limited to a person’s perception of events, that would explain a great deal, including the increased levels of pain and anxiety each person feels in relation to that event. Which means that what Sybok is showing Spock is not a memory, but rather what Spock assumes happened the moment after his birth. And that is more telling than anything: Spock thinks his father’s first expression toward him was one of disgust at his humanity, even after all these years.
You would think that Spock would know better, given that his father married a human woman, but Sarek’s attitude toward his wife Amanda does very little to disabuse anyone of that notion. He continually insists that he only married Amanda because it was a logical practice, and he basically orders her around like she works for him in professional settings. The same is true of Sarek’s second wife, Perrin, who is pointedly also a human; she basically exists to hang around and make certain that he has everything he needs. Knowing that Vulcan is a society full of powerful women, you almost have to wonder if Sarek didn’t marry human women out of a belief that they might be easier to control. Spock carries around certain sexist beliefs that are likely a product of this environment; on more than one occasion we witness him frame women (in general) as irrational and over-emotional when compared to men, and it’s hardly surprising because his father says this about his own mother constantly, to the point where making fun of her for it is a bonding exercise between them.
So. Aside from teaching his half-human kid to belittle his mom for lolz and parenting his first son so well that the guy became a renegade against Vulcan society… well, there’s also the fact that Sarek is basically using two of his children as “experiments,” trying to integrate emotion into Vulcan society.
Star Trek: Discovery has expanded Sarek’s peculiar legacy with the addition of Michael Burnham, his adopted ward. Raised alongside Spock after the death of her parents, Michael clearly struggles with her logical upbringing. She does her best to live according to Vulcan principals, but has difficulty compartmentalizing when she feels strong emotions. This difficulty is part of what leads her to commit mutiny against her beloved captain, Philippa Georgiou. Sarek claims that he brought Michael to Starfleet and to Captain Georgiou’s ship in particular because he thought that Philippa would be the ideal mentor to help Michael learn about her human psyche. But we later find out that Michael’s entry into Starfleet was never Sarek’s desired plan….
Michael has a unique connection to Sarek; because he brought her back from the edge of death when she was young, she holds a piece of his katra, or soul. In the episode “Lethe,” Michael tries to aid Sarek as he’s dying on a deteriorating ship via this link. She finds him caught on a specific memory—the day she found out that she was rejected from the Vulcan Expeditionary Group. It turns out that a large portion of Vulcan elites were unhappy with Sarek’s continual experiment of infiltrating their ranks with beings of emotion. The leader of the group gave Sarek a choice: they would accept only one of his “not-quite Vulcans,” Michael or Spock. While Spock was too young to be considered for admission to the group—he had not yet even had the chance to apply for the Vulcan Science Academy—Sarek chose his son over his adopted daughter.
This decision is cruel enough, but Sarek did it one better by allowing Michael to believe that she had failed him, failed to achieve the Vulcan standard which Sarek touted as the very highest standard there was. Rather than tell the truth to both his daughter and his wife—that his own people were bigoted and should be made to answer for their prejudice and hypocrisy—he allows Michael to shoulder this burden. While he admits that this was his own failure when she finally insists on viewing this memory, he still turns a cold shoulder when she takes him to task for it; Michael notes that this was an awful thing to do to your own daughter, to which Sarek replies, “Technically, we are not related.”
Wow. Just… yeah, wow.
He later pretends that the does not remember the conversation he had with Michael inside of his mind, just so he doesn’t have to talk to her about it. A fact that Michael calls him on, reminding him that he’ll owe her that chat one day.
But it gets better. (I mean worse, obviously, it gets much worse.) When viewers were first introduced to Sarek back in the Original Series, it was with the caveat that he had not spoken to his son in eighteen years. The reason given was that Spock had forgone admission to the Vulcan Science Academy and chosen instead to enlist in Starfleet. Amanda tells Captain Kirk that Sarek had expected his son to follow his path the same way he had followed his own father. But now there’s an extra layer here: Spock tuned down the path that Sarek betrayed his adopted child to ensure for him. So he essentially hurt Michael for nothing. And the anger over Spock making that choice (yes, anger, because refusing to talk to your child is an emotional response, plain and simple, there is literally no way around that), leads to a rift in their relationship that lasts the rest of Sarek’s life.
The best part? Sarek was in the room (again, according to the alternate Kelvin timeline, which has no particular reason to diverge from the main timeline in this instance) when Spock turned down his spot at the Vulcan Science Academy. And the reason why he walked out and straight into a Starfleet recruitment office? It was because he could not accept the outright bigotry that the Vulcan elite displayed toward his human heritage—particularly the fact that they referred to his human mother as a “disadvantage.” Spock did a very brave and loving thing that day, making the choice to separate himself from people who viewed himself and his mother as far beneath their regard. And Sarek still chooses to express disappointment that his son wouldn’t shrug off Vulcan prejudice and direct insults to his own wife, all for the sake of following in his footsteps and making good on a bad decision he already made on behalf of his children.
And the sad part is, it never really gets any better. Whether Sarek ever makes good regarding Michael remains to be seen, but his relationship with Spock is permanently damaged. They make small talk and interact on occasion, but Spock seems to think that his father would rather not bother with him and treats him accordingly. When Sarek suffers from Bendii Syndrome late in life (a neurological disease that causes Vulcans to lose emotional control), he mind melds with Captain Picard, who gets a heavy dose of all the emotions breaking through Sarek’s mind. The aging ambassador laments never expressing love to the people in his life, something which Picard is finally able to communicate to Spock after his father’s death via another mind meld. While it is beneficial for Spock to know, to say it’s late-coming is laughable at best. Sarek indicates his affection via other parties—asking Kirk to retrieve Spock’s katra and body to restore his life, telling Captain Georgiou to guide Michael—but he cannot possibly summon the maturity it would take to own up to emotions that he insists he does not feel.
This is not a “he’s Vulcan, of course he behaves differently” issue. There are plenty of Vulcans who have to ability to indicate basic affection, warmth, and regard toward others without resorting to grander displays of emotion. Sarek would rather gaslight the people he cares about into believing that Vulcan philosophy requires the strictest adherence possible because it’s a “better” way of life (something that Spock and Amanda frequently parrot to anyone who questions the Vulcan way of doing things). This, despite the fact that the Vulcans think his choice to take care of an orphaned human child is a step too far, despite the fact that Vulcan children bully and assault his son on a regular basis, despite the fact that his wife’s very reasonable insistence that her children be safe from torment and respected for their impressive accomplishments falls on deaf ears. It points to Sarek’s inability to reconcile what wishes and believes Vulcan could be with what it actually is. And that is an unfettered emotional response to the situation, not a considered and rational one.
By the way, there is one way to get Sarek to open up to his kids—by literally destroying Vulcan. In 2009’s Star Trek, following the destruction of his home planet and the sudden death of his wife, Sarek witnesses Spock completely lose control; he nearly kills Jim Kirk when the man deliberately goads him into an emotional response to prove his unfitness for command. Following this display, Sarek opens up to Spock; he tells his son that Amanda wouldn’t have recommended trying control his grief, and admits, “You asked me once why I married your mother… I married her because I loved her.”
See? He can admit that he has some good emotions! After losing a loved one, witnessing genocide, and watching his son’s near nervous breakdown!
Sarek clearly believes that human emotion has some measure of value, or he wouldn’t work so hard to fold it into Vulcan culture. But he refuses to acknowledge that the prejudices of his own people make it impossible for this integration to take place. Doing so would force him to make peace with the fact that Vulcan society is not the beacon of evolved thinking that he believes it to be. He wants to introduce these children with emotions into Vulcan society, but he refuses to fight for them at every juncture. As a result, not one of his children carves the path he wanted for them. But more important than that is the simple fact that Sarek was a horrific paternal figure to his children. He belittled them for feeling, allowed them to believe they evoked nothing but disappointment from him, and took exception to the majority of their decisions. He made his children feel undervalued, unsupported, and unloved, then doubled down whenever those tactics were called into question.
He is the worst dad. It’s quantifiable.
Good thing he had some very special kids to make up for it. (Let’s not talk about Sybok, though.)
Emmet Asher-Perrin has always maintained this position on Sarek, and was happy enough to be vindicated yet again by Discovery. You can bug her on Twitter and Tumblr, and read more of her work here and elsewhere.
Why do people keep insisting Vulcan is full of powerful women based on T’Pau? Is there any indication at all that she’s the rule rather than the exception? How many powerful Vulcan women do we actually meet as opposed to powerful men??
T’Pring fears being over shadowed by Spock, reduced to his consort. She chooses Stonn because he is willing to give her first place. Raising the question of how many other Vulcan men would do that.
In JtB Amanda makes clear that Sarek’s behavior towards her is Vulcan normal. She goes along with it because following Vulcan custom is part of the deal. In private she is anything but submissive and makes gentle fun of Sarek’s rationalizations.
Perrin is the wife of a very sick man who really shouldn’t be out and about. She is trigger edged protective but no more so than his aides.
All that said Sarek is indeed a miserable father.
This is about Sarek being a lousy father, not a lousy husband, but it’s worth mentioning that he also kept a nasty heart condition from his wife in “Journey to Babel,” and his wife and staff enabled his denial over having Bendii Syndrome in “Sarek.”
It also bugged me that it all fell on Kirk to rescue Spock in The Search for Spock when Sarek is the ambassador with the political connections. He’s got the juice to violate the ban on the Mutara Sector, why doesn’t he take care of it? The out-of-the-box reason is because Kirk is Our Hero and he must Do The Thing, but in-story it fits nicely with Sarek’s perpetual inability to take responsibility for his kids.
—Keith R.A. DeCandido
I’ll withhold judgement on Sarek not speaking to Spock for years based on this one, little, unanswered question: What were the alternatives?
Amanda (maybe because she’s being defensive, maybe not) implies Vulcan cultural rules are to blame. Sarek himself was young enough by Vulcan standards that his own parents should have been alive. There certainly would have been other people in his clan who could bring pressure to bear against him.
There would be a lot of cases in our own world where a person might have faced a choice between actively opposing someone and ignoring them. For example, an ancient Roman had the power to end his daughter’s marriage, something a lot of them did when political winds changed (and, if he died, his next-of-kin inherited the right). The exception to this was if he declared his daughter had married “with hand,” that he had cut her ties with her birth family and allowed her to join her family-by-marriage. But, it was a very literal change of families. His daughter didn’t have inheritance rights or any other claim on the family. It cut her off from protections as well as interference.
From what we’ve seen of Vulcan society, I can imagine Sarek having to choose between ignoring Spock and actively opposing him. I can also see estrangement as the price he paid to protect Spock from others trying to get in the way of his choices.
@3 One alternative was being upfront about the sacrifices made to give Spock a chance at the Vulcan Academy; explaining to both Michael and Spock why it was logical to keep the space open for Spock and why it was illogical for Spock to reject it. There’s no particular reason to get emotional over the restrictions imposed on his integration project.
No wonder Vulcans have groupies because that sounds like a really convenient way of approaching problems.
I agree with you, Noblehunter. Sarek should have said something along the lines of ‘The Authorities will only accept one of my children into the VEG. Michael, while I wished both of you to enter, as I am forced to choose logically I must prefer Spock as Starfleet would be an equally good opportunity for you. Indeed, I believe it would be beneficial for you to learn more about your human heritage. I had planned for you to do so in a different way but Starfleet service will have the same effect.
Seriously Amanda ever finds out about this Sarek’s ass is grass. I guess that’s why he lies so much to his first wife, she is the only person who will call him on his nonsense.
Great piece but I have to call it on worse father in science fiction. Sarek hold’s nothing on Shou Tucker from Fullmetal Alchemist: Brotherhood.
4. noblehunter: This conflation of the Science Academy and Expeditionary Force is odd. I’ve seen it on multiple sites now, with some people getting worked up about Spock being denied the Academy.
The Academy is basically college. What we see in “Lethe” is a graduation ceremony. Burnham has just completed her studies and Spock is just beginning his. There is no question about them both attending school. The question is about their careers after. Burnham cannot join the Vulcan fleet because they must “titrate” the exposure to humans. So she joins Starfleet instead, even though she is one of the most qualified candidates.
The irony is that Spock will reject joining the Vulcans and also choose Starfleet, thus alienating him from Sarek.
@7 I think it’s because I assumed that the Academy referred to something like Starfleet Academy. I suspected I was getting something wrong but couldn’t be bothered to double-check. You knew what I meant.
@8: Yeah, sorry, I was trying to make a more general comment. Just puzzled about the issue. Sometimes wonder: Did they even watch the same show? Why do commenters get overwrought (not you, elsewhere) when they weren’t paying attention to the details?
1. princessroxana –
“Why do people keep insisting Vulcan is full of powerful women based on T’Pau? Is there any indication at all that she’s the rule rather than the exception? How many powerful Vulcan women do we actually meet as opposed to powerful men??”
Apparently the only Vulcan women who are powerful are those that haven’t gotten married. Remember this bit from Amok Time?
T’PAU: He will have to fight for her. It is her right. T’Pring, thee has chosen the kal-if-fee, the challenge. Thee are prepared to become the property of the victor?
Expecting someone to match up to human norms when your culture still has something like this on the books is, quite frankly, expecting too much.
@9 I was hoping that other commenters had made a similarly incorrect assumption.
Yes, we knew Sarek sucks, and I’m thankful to scifi for bad parents, because they make me look great in comparison in my kids eyes. But Spock could very well remember his birth; if you take into account that Vulcans are telepaths, and he was in intimate contact with his mother for months, and could still hold a link right after birth. Or he could have those memories from his father.
On another note, I have yet to rewatch “Lethe”; but does Sarek say he’s trying to incorporate human emotion into Vulcan society? I don’t remember that, and I actually took it as if he’s trying to show that Vulcan logic and discipline can be instilled into non-Vulcans.
@5 – princessroxana: How did Sarek plan for Michael to learn about her human heritage while working for the VEG?
@10–My assumption has always been “property of the victor” is a specific consequence of calling challenge and not how a normal Vulcan marriage works–that T’Pau is reminding T’Pring that if she invokes this archaic custom, she’s going to have to accept the archaic consequences. (Otherwise, why ask her at all?) Granted it doesn’t speak well of Vulcan society that either half of that is still legal, but I don’t think it follows that all married Vulcan women are property.
@13/Greenygal: But they don’t seem to be equals, either. In “Journey to Babel”, when Kirk comments that Sarek’s request “sounded more like a command”, Amanda answers: “Of course. He’s a Vulcan. I’m his wife.”
I’m starting to understand why Dr. McCoy felt the way he did about Vulcans. Not only are they “damn annoying” but they’re maybe the most unhealthy people in the Federation. Repressed for success, but failing at so many things.
@12/Magnus he’s trying to show that Vulcan logic and discipline can be instilled into non-Vulcans, yes, that’s my reading too. After all, Vulcan logic is cultural, it’s learned, so humans should be able to learn it too. Sarek probably thinks he’s like a missionary adopting an impoverished kid from “darkest Africa” (yes, those are sneer quotes).
@12, Maybe he had such a plan or maybe the whole thing about getting in touch with her human side. was just a little white lie – and opposed to the big black one.
Poor inept Sarek. I believe he really does love both Spock and Michael but is rubbish at showing it. I wonder what his father was like?
Hey, Tucker let his kid help him in his research. How many dads make time for their children in that way?
@16 – perihelion: Oh yeah, that’s exactly what I think. It’s like he’s civilizing them, “giving them shoes and a shirt”.
@17 – princessroxana: I think he does care for them, yes, but he’s a broken man from a broken society. Nothing will ever convince me that Vulcan culture is healthy.
@19/MaGnUs: Since Vulcans are inherently more aggressive than humans, Vulcan society may be healthy for Vulcans. An imperfect solution, but the best they could do.
Just because Surak’s philosophy worked for them to a degree, it doesn’t mean it’s healthy in the long run. It should have been, in my opinion, a stepping stone.
@21/MaGnUs: That’s what McCoy tries to tell Spock, isn’t it?
In between racist digs, yeah. :)
@19, well extremely problematic and pretty dysfunctional anyway. Yet somehow Vulcans have hypnotized the rest of the Federation into accepting their self image as enlightened and superior.
I’m pretty sure the rest of the Federation, particularly it’s founding cultures, are very aware of the Vulcans’ shortcomings.
Well. This certainly reinforces my long-time claim that my late mother was trying hard to be a Vulcan (if she’d known of Vulcans). She could really twist herself into knots to provide a rational reason for every action.
What really came home to me: “He belittled them for feeling, allowed them to believe they evoked nothing but disappointment from him, and took exception to the majority of their decisions.”
Sigh.
What makes you think any other Vulcan is any better?
@25,You could be right but that’s not the impression I got from TOS.
Sarek is certainly a crappy father, but SF/F has so many dads-from-hell that saying he’s the worst may be overstretch.
I’m not arguing, I just need more convincing.
Sarek is bad father who’s trying to be a good father and failing abysmally. He clearly thinks being remote and demanding is the properly Vulcan way to parent. And maybe it is. That is of course is a separate class from unashamedly and intentionally hurtful and abusive fathers.
This reminds me in some ways of the residential school scandal we are still dealing with in Canada.
First, a bit of background. In Canada, from 1880 util the last one closed in 1996, First nations children (American Indian) were routinely removed from their homes and sent to live in schools established by various Christian churches with the backing of the government. There, the children were punished for speaking their native language, their culture was derided. They were also in some cases used for various scientific experiments such as nutrition studies without their or their parents knowledge or approval. Many children died at the schools and in many cases, their bodies were not returned to their families but buried on the school grounds instead. All in all, a very bad situation by people who claimed they were doing good but in reality were acting quite evilly.
Sarek seems to be doing something similar with Michael. He’s raising her in a Vulcan way and ignoring her human heritage. Even Amanda is part of the problem, seeing as she sees the Vulcans as superior.
AMANDA: You don’t understand the Vulcan way, Captain. It’s logical. It’s a better way than ours. But it’s not easy. It has kept Spock and Sarek from speaking as father and son for eighteen years.
Amanda is basically acting as the government of Canada did, turning over people to a system she sees as “better” without regard for those people’s wished or the harm that will befall them.
All in all, this episode makes me view Sarek and Amanda in a much darker light than before. But, I suppose that’s edgy new storytelling. Take some people that were previously portrayed as sympathetic (In Sarek’s case, after the events of JtB) and make them much more unsympathetic.
@31 I see the parallels, but also significant differences: Michael was raised in a family, not an institution, with parents who can show love at least to each other. Rather than forbidding Michael to speak her birth language, Amanda exposed her to classic English literature. And the context is different: Earth isn’t governed by Vulcan and isn’t in any danger of having its culture overshadowed.
I hope this storyline ends with the Vulcan government acknowledging that Sarek’s experiment is a success — humans can be trained in Vulcan culture — but rather than taking children away from their birth culture, they’ll accept adult applicants. And the first class includes Miranda Jones.
32. perihelion – But the people at the residential schools also thought they were showing love to the children by “saving” them from “false” beliefs and instilling in them a strong “Christian” attitude. Just like the Vulcans would try to keep Michael from showing her “wrong” emotions and show her the superiority of their own beliefs. And as I said, Amanda was part of it too since ten years later she”s still touting the superiority of the Vulcan way of raising children. Vu;can children perhaps but as we’ve seen, Michael is anything but well adjusted around humans.
I wouldn’t hols out too much hope for Vulcans changing their ways. As we saw in Take Me Out to the Holosuite, Vulcans are still racists and tend to stay together in Starfleet as shown by the all Vulcan ship, the T’Kumbra. It may be Starfleet but like the Intrepid, it’s got an all Vulcan crew. In fact, the only ships in Starfleet that we’ve seen with all the crew being of one race are crewed by Vulcans.
@33/kkozoriz: Perhaps Vulcans prefer all-Vulcan ships because there’s a higher probability that their Pon Farr will be handled discreetly there.
For something that happens once every seven years, you keep most of a race sequestered on their own ships? Surely there must be a better way of handling it than something that looks suspiciously like “separate but equal”.
Or, possibly, Vulcans prefer their own race, seeing others as lesser. Much like we’ve seen so far is STD and the 2009 reboot movie. Even Sarek’s comment when Spock was born of “So human” shows that he sees his son’s humanity as a flaw and a weakness that doesn’t measure up to Vulcan ideals.
Like those Canadian educators Sarek and Amanda are doing harm while trying to do good. Amanda definitely believes in the Vulcan way as much as Sarek and wants her childr n to have the advantages she sees in it. She does expose them to aspects of Human culture like literature and she sometimes pleads for more patience and understanding of their emotional natures but basically she’s totally on board for the Vulcanization of her human daughter and half human son.
I wonder what effect if any she had on Sybok?
@35/kkozoriz: Since the thing that happens once every seven years is a source of great shame and a secret they never talk about, what else would they do? Besides, when there are many Vulcans on a ship, it happens much more often than once every seven years.
@36/Roxana: Amanda didn’t want Spock to be fully Vulcan. In “Journey to Babel” she’s disappointed that he hasn’t learned to smile, and in TVH she asks him how he feels.
@37, By then, ten years after Michael’s troubles, Amanda may have realized her mistake and wanted Spock to be more like his sister.
31. kkozoriz
“In Canada, from 1880 until the last one closed in 1996, First nations children (American Indian) were routinely removed from their homes and sent to live in schools established by various Christian churches with the backing of the government. There, the children were punished for speaking their native language, their culture was derided….”
In case some people don’t know, the United States had exactly these same schools, run by church organizations and underwritten by the government. There’s just no prominent on-going national dialog about it here.
I don’t know about dialog but I’ve both heard of the American schools and heard criticism of the idea.
40. princessroxana
Well, if you are interested I’d recommend Spirit Car by Diane Wilson, whose mother went to one such school in North Dakota (although it was not a really bad one like some).
Integrating Native Americans into the larger society wasn’t a bad idea. Doing it by forced indoctrination and suppress ion of their own culture was a VERY BAD idea.
Darth Vader respectfully refutes your article’s premise while simultaneously slaughtering your entire species.
You know, I’m kind of thinking that while I’ve always scratched my head a bit at Klingon-worship (obviously there are some great Klingon characters, but I never was into the whole ‘HONOR BEFORE ALL ELSE’ kind of cultures, or cultures built on warrior worship) this is kind of making me realize that Vulcan culture is its own messed up ball of wax despite how idealized it is in some circles. Some of the other comments are also reminding me of one of the DS9 episodes (is it the baseball game one?) where one of the Vulcans is constantly making really shitty/snide remarks about humans and even trying to publish some paper about it and I’m just like…’how do they get away with this crap in a supposedly progressive society?’.
Sarek – You must be more Vulcan. Your human half is a weakness.
Amanda – Show your human half. I know it’s in there.
Spock – I’m going to follow my own path.
Sarek and Amanda – You’re a bad son!
@@@@@ 12 — perhaps not strictly canon, but Savik did definitely say that she could remember her birth and infancy in one of the novels, and wondered (snarkily, for a Vulcan) why humans would automatically assume that they could not.
@@@@@ 43 HA! Yes! I’d say Vader was very much worse overall, but Sarek is more… complex-ly terrible. Honestly it would be easier to deal with Vader — you can just dislike and avoid your terrifying murderous absentee dad, rather than still trying for and holding out hope for Sarek’s posthumous love.
Vader gets a pass because of the Force; those silly Midchlorians (or whatever they’re called) could be making him do evil things because, you know, they’re a plot device.
@31, @39: In the US we tend to ignore such attempts at cultural obliteration by claiming that it was something only done by Spanish missionaries, but not the more enlightened Americans; bringing it up before, say, a local board of education tends to result in screaming accusations of a) revisionist history b) political correctness or c) anti-Americanism
37. JanaJansen What if, Vulcans sequestered in such close confines causes their Pon Farr cycles to sync up and most of/the whole crew hit it at the same time. Would the ship even survive? :)
@27 – pjcamp: I dunno, Tuvok seems better adjusted, plus he talks well of his children and wife.
@36 – princessroxana: I always thought Sybok and Amanda didn’t really live together.
@43 – Anthony: I know you’re just making a joke, but Vader is not a dad. He’s a biological father, but he wasn’t Leia’s or Luke’s dad.
Maybe they didn’t, maybe they did. Continuity doesn’t seem to be a concern anymore. More seriously if Sybok knew Spock as a boy he must have also known Spock’s mother.
But it doesn’t mean they lived together. Sybok could have visited at some point.
True. But if he knew Amanda at all she could have had some influence on him. Here is an emotional being living with his own father without wrecking havoc to all around her. How does she manage?
She gives in to the pressure to behave like a Vulcan.
I haven’t wanted to hijack the DISCO episode threads (is that the acronym we’re using now?), so I haven’t posted this link yet. But now it is time to once again plug my favorite fanfiction author, Pat Foley. This writer explores the relationship between Sarek and Amanda so very well. Granted, it’s written very much from a TOS show/movie era, so any later information revealed about Vulcans is not integrated. But Pat really has a knack for writing sympathetic yet complex portrayals of characters, tearing your heart out, and making you realize how really, really difficult an interspecies relationship would have to be.
I’m probably biased due to my love of this author, but I think it’s simplistic to call Sarek only “bad.” The truth is we just don’t know all the details of Spock’s life growing up, his family, their backstory, and what really caused the fissure between them. We get snippets here and there, and usually from someone else’s perspective. I think he often made decisions he believed were best for everyone in a very authoritarian way. I’m not excusing him or saying he always did right. I’m saying that it looks very much like he is the kind of person who would care for others outside of the dictates of his race and culture, while the more traditional set would never even make the effort. As such, he fails more often than not, but many times due to putting himself out on a very far limb that few if any have attempted.
As for Sybok … I tend to like the fan theory that the whole movie is a weird dream created by too many weird substances consumed at that camp fire.
So, you abide by fanfiction, but want to dismiss an actual canon film? Yes, it’s STV, but… :)
@53, I see her as voluntarily conforming to Vulcan customs and manners.But we also see she doesn’t hesitate to cut loose with her emotions in private.
But she still conforms to their customs, so in the end, it makes no difference what she says or does in private. Vulcans seem to be very much about appearances.
I’ve got to agree with you there. Vulcans are All about appearances and Amanda has clearly agreed to give the right appearances. But as her stepson Sybok could have been close enough to get a glimpse of what’s beneath, or not.
Knowing how reticent Sarek can be the fact she had a stepson could have been a complete surprise to Amanda.
Oh, most definitely. She probably learned about it after she got married to him.
Several years after no doubt, when Sybok’s mum died and Sarek was expected to take responsibility for him. To be fair that could have been when Sarek found out he had an elder son!
Vulcans have serious communications issues.
@55: Guilty, sir, guilty as charged. Hypocrite that I am, I have a hard time wrapping my head around the movie. ;)
I try to avoid head cannon over cannon for the most part, as when you get down to it we as fans only have so much ownership and must acknowledge the creator (or at least copyright holder) prerogative. It’s their universe, we just get to play in it. So I do accept Final Frontier as part of the established history of Star Trek since, well, we have to (and I actually like the scene where Spock confronts his pain, one of the few bright points in that story for me). I just tend to let it float to the back of my mind like certain other unfortunate Trek moments that will not be named.
My real point was just that Pat Foley’s stories feel so very … hm, canonic isn’t really the right word, but viable and vibrant? They offer a fully fleshed out Vulcan beyond the glimpses we get in other stories. I don’t claim it’s the only interpretation or even the one the current Trek gatekeepers ascribe to. But it definitely feels like a solid backdrop to original canon, and one that made a huge Amanda Greyson fan. I would have loved her to be the main tie-in for this series instead of Sarek.
Whatever floats your boat, I guess. :)
@61, I was inspired to look up Pat Foley’s stories. I disagree with her vision on several points, I got my own version of Vulcan, but that doesn’t keep me from enjoying them. Making T’Pau Sarek’s mother jarred me at first but then I realized that her connection to Spock is never explicated onscreen so why not?
@6, well, if you’re going to allow anime as SF – and in the case of Neon Genesis Evangelion, I’d say you almost have to – then I think Gendo Ikari is way up there in the running, and I personally think tops the list. Of course, if you could throw in Ranma 1/2, you get to challenge Gendo Ikari with Genma Saotome.
What I’m having trouble with is what the @@@@@#$% is Amanda thinking? I can buy her allowing SPOCK to be raised as a pure Vulcan. He’s half Vulcan already, he’s being raised on Vulcan, and it’s hard to form an identity as a hybrid unless there are enough other hybrids to form a viable community. So yeah, if he’s the only human-Vulcan hybrid in existence, or if there are only a couple of hundred human-Vulcan hybrids, then he’ll probably need to choose. And since he’s living on Vulcan and looks Vulcan, it only makes sense for him to choose to be Vulcan.
But Michael? Michael is pure human. At the time she comes to live with Sarek and Amanda, her parents were just murdered. Let’s take a traumatized human orphan and train her that she’s not allowed to have any feelings. Gee, that’s a great idea! What could go wrong, right?
I realize that Amanda has drunk the Vulcan Kool-aid to some extent, since she tells Kirk in “Journey to Babel” that the Vulcan way is “a better way than ours.” But she also clearly still behaves as a human, herself, and she proclaims at the end of the episode that she’s “sick to death of logic,” so she’s not living as a Vulcan, herself.
What human woman would ask a newly orphaned human child to give up her feelings and behave as a Vulcan, especially when there’s a human woman right there to serve as mentor and role model? I’m afraid this paints a really nasty picture of Amanda…
@65, I am beginning to wonder just how much affect Sarek’s ‘katra’ had on Michael’s unformed personality. Is she mentally hybridized and is that why Amanda allowed her to be raised Vulcan like Spock?
Obviously you are all too young to remember Philip K. Dick’s “The Father Thing”? Worst SciFi father ever….
I think the problem with Vulcans is that they’re WRITTEN by humans. :-)
We know how the average human would treat others if the person were stronger, smarter, longer-lived, and telepathic, so most writers have made Vulcans treat humans that way.
Of course, since science fiction exists partly to hold a mirror up to society, writing Vulcans in this way isn’t wrong. But it does make Vulcans way too human; I’d love it if the writers of Discovery chose to give us Vulcans who were genuinely alien, and not just humans with pointed ears.
Amanda said in “Journey to Babel” that the other BOYS teased Spock WHEN HE WAS A CHILD. Since I’m sure it takes awhile to train a Vulcan child to behave logically, it makes sense that Vulcan children would be prejudiced, since they don’t have all their logic yet. I’m sad that writers after TOS chose to make adult Vulcans prejudiced as well; I think it would be nice to have some really good Vulcans as role models, instead of merely having Vulcans as mirrors of our own shortcomings.
@66 – princessroxana: Michael started being raised as a Vulcan before the bombing and the katra-transference. The Klingon attack that killed her parents on the research colony and the Vulcan Learning Center bombing that basically killed her are two different events, some time apart.
I’ve always seen Vulcans, especially Sarek and Spock, as having walked away from emotions, but now I see Vulcan as one extreme, though I doubt humanity’s emotions are the other extreme, except when emotions rule and the rule punishes true emotions, canceling out all other options, except for the mindless RULE.
Vulcans by and large camouflage their emotions at the surface, keeping emotions out of the way when emotions cloud the issue, but Vulcans are far from emotionless. They are controlled to an extent, British to the Nth degree, and can be reasoned with. Such control is negative for all concerned as it keeps those divorced from their emotions cocooned. To counter denying emotions, the result is the natural backlash of Bendii syndrome where in Nature balances the inequities with an uncontrolled resurgence of all repressed emotion with a vengeance Looks like you can’t fool Nature forever.
The recent reboot of Star Trek is dealing with this inequity by facing Spock with a formidable female who will not let him get away with that “Vulcan way” and I applaud that. While managing one’s responses and emotions in order to deal with a situation (as I have done in my youth), it is better to face the emotional music and not go off into a violent emotional reaction without facing the Bendii backlash. Emotions are necessary, but unbridled emotions are at the heart of serious REACTION without REFLECTION. Feel the emotions, but realize emotions are a triple-edged blade that will end up with your death — or someone else’s violent death — or an entire nation’s.
@68/Corylea: Did the writers after TOS really make adult Vulcans prejudiced against humans? I didn’t get the impression that Selar, or Sarek in his TNG appearance, or Tuvok were prejudiced.
In fairness fiction as a whole is filled with horrible fathers. As Tolstoy observed, “Happy families are all alike; every unhappy family is unhappy in its own way.”
In short, happy father/child relationships don’t make for interesting story telling for the most part. This is why we see a lot of Sarek, but almost nothing of Kirk’s father in the Star Trek Universe. The one (on screen) exception up to now is where he (like a good father is suppose to) sacrifices himself to save his crew, wife and children.
What is, of course, unfortunate is that while Spock’s relationship with his father is certainly strained in Sarek’s original appearance, Sarek does demonstrate some genuine concern for Spock’s well being before the rift is basically healed near the end of the episode. And then his character arc in Star Trek III and IV, though brief actually does a lot to portray him as a good father and even an ally to the Enterprise Crew… Its only Star Trek V that his character really starts to decay.
Oh, and lets have an appreciation for the genuinely good fathers in SciFi…
@72: To help balance things out, we’ve covered some of SFF’s best dads here!
@71 – Jana: Selar does not really have much of a development. We do get other Vulcan a-holes in ENT and DS9.
Oh come on, Sarek never made his son get in the robot, never turned his son into a robot, never replaced his son with a robot, and never revealed himself to be a robot that was pretending to be his father all along.
Spock should stop being ungrateful, and start buying his dad a tie rack every year or something.
There are worse fictional fathers than Sarek, specifically in Sci-Fi works…
Gendo Ikari. Kinda tops my personal list due to the prolonged, personally-invested, creepily-motivated psychological abuse of his son.
The Emperor of Mankind. Anyone familiar with Warhammer 40k’s backstory will know why he’s on this list. Specifically that him sucking at being a dad is THE reason for most of said backstory.
Rusty Venture. It’s played for laughs, but dear Gods, when your mortal enemy cares more about your sons than you do, you’ve got major problems.
And, as mentioned by others, Shou Tucker. He’s not as high on the list because his was one excessively horrible instance toward a daughter he genuinely loved and doted on up until that point instead of prolonged and repeated abuse like the above.
Guys, the title is a pun, it’s an hyperbole, or it’s a reference to a subjective choice by the author, based on what she watches or reads or prefers… there is no need to list every single bad father in scifi.
@77 – I mostly just used this article, and Sarek sucking as a father, to post the top few of a list that I’ve actually put some thought into…
I have previously described the Emperor as “Right between Gendo Ikari and Rusty Venture on the list of ‘Worst Dads in Fiction’, and that low only because of how creepily, horrifyingly *personal* Gendo’s abuse of Shinji is.”
But, yeah, Sarek belongs on the list now.
I’m surprised no one’s mentioned the Romulans. In TOS and TNG, they are clearly stated to be Vulcans who were violent and left Vulcan rather than give up the violence and who adopt their own warrior culture instead. I do remember everyone being shocked that the Romulans looked just like Vulcans (because they originally were). In fact, I don’t remember the name of the TOS episode, but it’s the one with Abraham Lincoln and other historical figures and in that episode they introduce the father of the Vulcan way and how he saved the race from their violent tendencies. Spock is living on Romulus in TNG trying to bring the Romulans and the Vulcans back together. My point is this: we may find Vulcan culture with its emphasis on logic over emotions to be less than ideal in terms of relationships, but the Vulcans had a very strong reason for being the way they are and discouraging strong emotion. That said, I also think Sarek is a lousy father for all the reasons given in the post and the comments. I think he’s a worse father than Vader because even though Vader is evil, he doesn’t take any hand in raising his children. He doesn’t even know he has children which explains being absentee. Sarek had a huge role in parenting his children and making plenty of mistakes that harmed them later in life. I’m not an anime fan so I can’t compare the other fathers mentioned because I’ve never seen them.
As @corlea mentions (and it’s seen elsewhere, perhaps in ST:TAS) Spock was teased as a child. (“Spock, Spock! Your head’s an Earth rock!” I recall from a certainly non-canon comic.)
I believe in ST:V (err… Voyager, not Five) Tuvok admits that Vulcans have very deep and powerful emotions, which he claims must be repressed. We see some of the same things in T’Pol on ST:E and its portrayal of the shifts in Vulcan society immediately prior to the formation of the UFP.
Inconsistencies in canon require some kind of synthesis of interpretation, which I normally refer to as “fanwanking”. :-) My fanwank about all this Vulcan emotion stuff is that the teaching of Surak was not to destroy all emotion but instead to use only logic as a basis for one’s actions and decisions. “Don’t act based on emotion”, rather than “pretend we didn’t naturally develop emotions out of evolutionary necessity and that they don’t exist at all.”
How that got interpreted later, well, it seems that there are a variety of theories. Tolaris (ST:E “Fusion”) says the V’tosh Ka’tur do not reject Surak but believe that they have a more accurate interpretations of Surak’s teachings. My guess is that they are right — Spock himself later comes to the belief that “logic is not the end of wisdom, but the beginning” which sounds an awful lot like reintegration of emotion once one has a established a firm bedrock of logic for their understanding of life. And Spock would never misinterpret Surak, would he? He’s the only living Vulcan to have met Surak. :-)
Certainly that’s what I want to believe. It makes the Vulcans a nuanced non-monolithic culture in accordance with IDIC, where individuals and groups have flaws rather than an entire race being a homogeneous, dangerously repressed bunch of jerks. Integrated emotions on top of logical decisionmaking sounds like the sort of aspiration that many of us could benefit from.
79, The Savage Curtain is the episode with Abe Lincoln, Surak, a Klingon, another alien, and two humans, though Ghenghis Khan might be unfairly maligned in some ways by being included.
I remember bursting out in laughter when Sarek pushed Burnham away in full matrix style: This show is such a joke it’s unreal.
Just because logic was what allowed Vulcans to overcome their violent tendencies, it doesn’t mean that it should be what they use exclusively for eternity.
@72/MarylandBill: I disagree. Good father/child relationships can make for great stories. Just think of Sisko and Jake, or Data and Lal. On the other hand, bad fathers aren’t automatically interesting, because many bad fathers are alike.
There’s an essay by Ursula K. Le Guin called “All Happy Families” where she argues why she thinks that Tolstoy was wrong.
@80/splicer: Strictly speaking, Spock hasn’t met Surak either. He has met an image of Surak. He even calls him that in the episode.
Psycho-analyze Ming the Merciless next.
Solid argument! Sarek is definitely a piece of work… But I must disagree with him being the worst father on scifi, he is not even the worst father on Star Trek. That honor belongs to Gul Dukat. Dukat didn’t even object when Ziyal, his daughter, started to hang out with Garak, a shady operative of the Obsidian Order. While Garak’s moral make up makes him one of the “good guys”, his sympathy for the subtleties of lying and deception make him not a good choice for parental guidance award. Also, while Dukat is not directly responsible for Ziyal’s death, he carries the burden of guilt for surrounding her with psychopathic killers.
65. Corylea – “What I’m having trouble with is what the @@@@@#$% is Amanda thinking? I can buy her allowing SPOCK to be raised as a pure Vulcan. He’s half Vulcan already, he’s being raised on Vulcan, and it’s hard to form an identity as a hybrid unless there are enough other hybrids to form a viable community. So yeah, if he’s the only human-Vulcan hybrid in existence, or if there are only a couple of hundred human-Vulcan hybrids, then he’ll probably need to choose. And since he’s living on Vulcan and looks Vulcan, it only makes sense for him to choose to be Vulcan.
But Michael? Michael is pure human. At the time she comes to live with Sarek and Amanda, her parents were just murdered. Let’s take a traumatized human orphan and train her that she’s not allowed to have any feelings. Gee, that’s a great idea! What could go wrong, right?”
That’s exactly why I suggested that Sarek and Amanda raised Sybok and that Amanda had the greater influence. And we saw how that turned out. Since Michael came to live with them before Spock was born (or have the ages been pinned down that closely yet?) they chose to raise their next child according to Vulcan tradition. After all, human emotions didn’t do Sybok all the much good, did they? Sarek then decided that Michael was a much better result than Sybok so Spock was raised the same way.
Basically, Sarek and Amanda treated all their kids as some sort of sociological experiment.
84, While Sisko and Jake are a good father-son pair, I can’t say that it’s a particular interesting part of the DS9 storyline, it was hardly a driving force in the plots, and the Data/Lal story ended in tragedy which is the other side of the coin, so it may not be the best example of a “good” relationship.
85, I believe he’s still missing that toy levi-train he never got for whatever holiday they have on Mongo. Also his mother never loved him, leading him to obsess over Dale Arden.
Okay. Personally, I have always considered ST 5 as alternative. I’m pretty sure there is something in the original show bible that says that Spock has no siblings or half siblings, and as for that birth scene on an advanced planet like Vulcan, having it in a cave, with a long-nailed midwife, was nothing short of absurd. I don’t believe in Sybok’s existence! The whole film is a dream, maybe Kirk’s, he’d deserve it!
I don’t have Netflix, so haven’t seen “Discovery”, but as I recall, in the first of the new cycle of films, when Spock and Sarek are grieving for Amanda, Sarek says, “I married your mother because I loved her,” in answer to an earlier question. And Spock goes crazy if you insult his mother. Twice in that film he throws himself at anyone who has been rude about Amanda and he basically tells the Council to stick ted, their offer of a Vulcan Academy place where the sun doesn’t shine when they have a go at her.
I grew up with the original series and I won’t hear a word against the lovely Sarek! There were a LOT of Sarek fans back when I started in fandom. It did help that the role was played by the yummy Mark Lenard, of course, but I loved that twinkle in the eye, and Amanda was so obviously playing the role expected of her by anyone who has heard “things” about Vulcan. She is definitely not oppressed!
@88/LordVorless: The Data/Lal relationship ended in tragedy, but that sort of proves my point – there doesn’t have to be a conflict between the main characters for a story to be interesting, there only has to be some bad stuff happening. The Sisko/Jake relationship isn’t central to the main plot of DS9, but it is central to “Explorers” and “The Visitor”, and it is always there in the background. If it isn’t a particular interesting part of DS9 for you, we like different things. I think it’s a joy to watch.
Broken father/child relationships, on the other hand, have become such a cliché in American films and TV that it sometimes seems there has to be one not later than the second season of any TV show, or the second film of any film series. And they usually don’t play out in new and surprising ways. I tend to find them boring.
90, and from my perspective, I think that the Data/Lal story proves the point, they had nowhere to go except to end it in tragedy. They couldn’t make Data a bad father, or even an indifferent one, or otherwise flawed, so well, they end it(and even that was after injecting the conflict of an “abduction” by an authority), and I can’t even remember it being mentioned again(though perhaps I forgot?). Alexander Rozhenko gets more mention, and that’s usually an episode when Worf is being the troubled Klingon father who doesn’t know what he has, even if he loves his son. Those two episodes? In “Explorers” they throw in the “I’m going away” moment, and “The Visitor” is about “Jake” spending his life to save his missing father. Like Batman will always be haunted by his parents or Spiderman by Uncle Ben. Then, of course, yeah, not exactly part of the arc. Unless you work it into the Emissary’s disappearance, I guess. (And I was always a little bothered by how they did the reverse to Molly O’brien! That was just creepy in terms of a solution!)
But yes, usually people have an acrimonious relationship with their parents, or their parents are some real character, that is embarrassing or uncomfortable, or when they appear, they’ve suddenly gone through some major life change. They’ve got to have a reason for the story to happen, after all. A holiday dinner without an argument, fistfight, or sudden disaster? Not even the Greeks can handle that! Quick, 20 ccs of Drama, STAT!
I’m sure somebody else has spoofed it though I can’t recall who.
@76, oh God yes, even one of his sons says the Emperor was a lousy father. He certainly valued his genetically constructed sons but I don’t think he ever for one moment saw them as anything but extensions of himself. His response on finding one was basically ‘ Hi, I’m your father.just forget your home world and personal goals. I designed you to conquer the Galaxy, and look I’ve got a whole army just for you!
Kind of beats even Sarek in the clueless department.
@91/LordVorless: Oh, the Data/Lal story could have ended differently. They could have made Lal a recurring character. Or they could have made her decide that she wants to go away, and then never mentioned her again, or perhaps mentioned once or twice that she’s written a letter, and that she’s fine.
I agree that there has to be a reason for the story to happen. But as you yourself say, the holiday dinner doesn’t have to be disrupted by an argument, it can be disrupted by a sudden disaster too. Personally, I like that better. I don’t like to watch unsympathetic characters deal with clichéd personal problems. I prefer to watch likeable, mature characters get into trouble and help each other to get out again. I guess it comes down to personal taste.
Denethor’s gotta be up there too.
93, Sure, if you want to say that they could have written a different story, they could have, but they’d still need something to go on, otherwise it’d be less entertaining. With what pieces they had, they made the choices that produced a story that was at least, somewhat interesting.
But in terms of conflict, it was actually a common complaint during the early episodes of TNG that the writers felt hamstrung by the strictures that were imposed by Gene Roddenberry, or his lawyer namely in how everybody was getting along, and that just lead to problems.
Now as far as unsympathetic characters go, no, I don’t know how anybody loved Raymond, but it was on the air for quite a while. Longer than the Get-Along-Gang anyway.
@95/LordVorless: The “somewhat interesting” story told in “The Offspring” happens to be one of my three favourite TNG episodes, but never mind that.
As far as I know, the complaints in the early seasons of TNG weren’t so much about how everybody in the main cast was getting along, but rather about how flawless and perfect all of humanity had become. That isn’t the same thing at all!
Actually, I’ve recently rewatched TNG and was surprised about the lack of warm, personal relationships between the characters in the early seasons. In contrast, that’s where TOS and DS9 really shine. I also think that the relationships between the TOS characters, especially the friendship between Kirk and Spock, were a big part of why Star Trek became so beloved in the first place.
87/Kkozoriz — About their ages: Discovery takes place ten years before TOS, which means that Spock is about 25 right now. We don’t know exactly how old Michael Burnham is, but the actress who plays her is 32, and we know that she served in Starfleet for 7 years after finishing at the Vulcan Science Academy. If she graduated from the VSA at the usual (on Earth, at least) age of 22, 22 + 7 = 29. That means Michael Burnham is probably somewhere between 29 and 32 years old, which makes her somewhere between four and seven years older than Spock.
We don’t know how old Burnham was when her parents died and Sarek and Amanda took custody of her. If her parents died when she was in the 4 – 7 range, then Spock was born at about the time that his parents got custody of Burnham. So the little experiments were raised simultaneously. :-)
As for Sybok, Shatner can show me Star Trek V: The Final Frontier as many times as he wants, and I’ll never believe it’s canon. :-)
96, I just find it hard to give it high marks, with the ending being a rug-sweeping, so to speak, over the issue. SQIG, y’know? Leaves a bad taste in my mouth. Of course, the basic premise is probably in a thousand stories from Asimov to Zelazny, so there are other versions as well.
Anyway, the “perfection” of the characters was also a factor that was interrelated with the the lack of conflict between the characters themselves. I’d say they were much the same thing, though perhaps difficult to separate from what the writers at the time are saying was a production issue. And not the writer’s strike, problem though that was.
They also might have done more to “humanize” the characters, though fortunately it showed up by the time of the movies for sure.
I’m surprised no one has mentioned how one dysfunctional family resulted in the culture of the entire alpha quadrant being changed.
Consider the time line: First Contact hinted at an active Vulcan Expeditionary Group. Enterprise showed us the zygote of what Star Fleet would become, while also showing us how dominant the VEG was. TOS doesn’t really show the VEG, but Spock is (still) canonically the first Vulcan in Star Fleet. The films specifically show Spock mentoring Vulcans who have followed him into Star Fleet. By TNG, Vulcans are common in Star Fleet. By DS9, Star Fleet has vessels crewed solely by Vulcans, given a significant Vulcan name. No mention is made of the VEG.
My conclusion (probably incorrect) is that the Vulcan vessel (or at least the crew) is ex-VEG, and that Star Fleet has absorbed the VEG into its operations. Given we don’t here about any of the other pre-Federation governments (like the Andorians) retaining their fleets, we can suspect the same happened with them. Possibly motivated by diluting human influence in galactic affairs, or to balance the Vulcans’ new levels of influence in Star Fleet.
Why Star Fleet was chosen was shown by Enterprise: the humans were able to form the Ferderation from old enemies because they had now history with any side. They acted as the glue. Star Fleet had no history, and so had no conflict they’d “win” by absorbing rival fleets.
This leaves us with the question of why the Vulcans would let go in a couple of generations an institution that had been held as the pinnacle of achievement. Only the cream of Vulcan culture got to serve in the VEG.
Lethe gave us the answer. More than anything else, even logic, Vulcans value the concept of IDIC. This episode shows us that the VEG doesn’t. Sarek perhaps saw this and that’s why he engaged in his “experiments”. I suspect without realising initially the emotional cost he’d be subjecting himself to.
Then the institionalised racism in the VEG caused both attempts to fail. First with him complicit by choosing Spock over Michael. The second time by Spock rejecting participating in such a flawed institution (possibly with Sarek being complicit by omission, not explaining his hopes for the influence Spock would have on the VEG).
Star Fleet in contrast embodies IDIC. Yes, it’s still human-centric, but it accepts any race.
Spock may be a good role-model for Vulcans, but such a fundamental shift in a society’s aspirations within a generation requires a visionary working really hard and gathering a group of like-minded individuals to engineer such change. Star Fleet replacing VE as the height of a Vulcan’s ambition is seismic. Sarek fits this role.
In summary: Sarek would rather change an entire culture (and as a consequence the political structure of the quadrant) in order to validate two of his children’s choices than sit down and talk fully and honestly with them.
i can’t disagree with the bad Dad label
EDIT: replaced references to Vulcan Exploration Service with the correct Vulcan Expeditionary Group.
POI: no mention of VEG is made except in Lethe; Spock is not the first Vulcan to serve in Star Fleet; and TOS featured a Vulcan crew (the USS Intrepid)
At least Sarek knows he did wrong. He’s still haunted by his bad decision years later, it at the forefront of his mind where Michael can see it.
Michael’s success in Starfleet may have soothed his conscience. Yeah I lied to my daughter and favored her brother over her but it worked out great, look how successful she is! And then she gets courtmartialed and sentenced to life and it’s back to self blame, I destroyed Michael’s life, this would never have happened if I’d chosen her for VEG.
SAREK knows he’s a bad father. Michael’s life is ruined and Spock is on the way to wrecking his, So Sarek thinks. Obviously he’s failed them. But does he communicate his regret and concern? No. He’s still in full denial mode.
Quoth WillMayBeWise: “Spock is (still) canonically the first Vulcan in Star Fleet.”
No, he isn’t. Not remotely. Nowhere onscreen was it ever stated that Spock was the first Vulcan in Starfleet. (In fact, he couldn’t possibly be, because he’s not a Vulcan, he’s a Vulcan-human hybrid.)
And DS9 wasn’t the first show to establish an all-Vulcan Starfleet ship, the original series was, in “The Immunity Syndrome.”
—Keith R.A. DeCandido
If we take Kirk’s claim of the United Earth Space Agency as his authority seriously ‘Starfleet’ was at the time of TOS made up of the spacefleets of the member planets administered by their own commands. This would explain why none of Kirk’s superiors or fellow captains seem to be alien.
97. Corylea – 87/Kkozoriz — About their ages: Discovery takes place ten years before TOS, which means that Spock is about 25 right now.
IIRC, Spock’s age has never been mentioned or his birthdate established on screen. There was a deleted scene fro the ’09 reboot but, being deleted, it doesn’t count. We actually don’t know how old he is.
We did get this bit from Yesteryear
SPOCK: What time period?
GREY: Twenty to thirty Vulcan years past.
And this
SPOCK: Yes. I will need a Vulcan desert soft suit and boots, and a small selection of streetwear circa 8877 Vulcan years
And this
SPOCK: I wish to visit the planet Vulcan, thirty years past, the month of Tasmeen.
But it’s clear from the context that they’re talking about Vulcan years so we really don’t know how long that is.
98. LordVorless: SQIG?
104, Status Quo Is God
@@@@@ 101, KRAD – Well, dren. I’d forgotten about the USS Intrepid had a mostly-Vulcan crew. Possibly because it didn’t have a Vulcan name. <sigh>. Possibly because I’d also accepted the common misconception that Spock was the first Vulcan in Star Fleet.
Did I get anything else wrong? I don’t think the Vulcan Expiditionary Group is mentioned after Tower of Babel? Which suggests it ceased being a significant organisation…
@106/WillMayBeWise: “Journey to Babel” doesn’t mention the Vulcan Expeditionary Group, only the Vulcan Science Academy. According to that episode, Sarek wanted Spock to work there as a scientist.
I assumed that he wanted Spock to attend the Science Academy as a student as the first step in a career path similar to his, Sarek’s own. According to Amanda he also objected to Starfleet in principle believing that peace shouldn’t rely on force – which is not very realistic of him. But as we know continuity is NOT a priority of DSC.
@108/Roxana: Well, he said: “[Spock] chose to devote his knowledge to Starfleet instead of the Vulcan Science Academy.” This sounds to me as if he had wanted him to work there.
Kirk seemed to think the same thing, because later he told Amanda about Starfleet: “It’s a better opportunity for a scientist to study the universe than he can get at the Vulcan Science Academy.”
106, supposedly it was intended to have a Vulcan-name, but that wasn’t done for whatever reason. And you’re not the only person to make the claim about Spock by far.
Quoth princessroxana: “But as we know continuity is NOT a priority of DSC.”
Um, we know no such thing. And since you haven’t watched the show, I don’t see how you can make such a definitive statement, unless you’re personally acquainted with members of the writing staff.
—Keith R.A. DeCandido, who is, in fact, personally acquainted with a member of the writing staff
Query: does Vulcan refer to citizenship as well as species? For instance Spock’s species is half-Vulcan, but a full citizen of planet Vulcan?
(And yes, the odds of none of the 400 Vulcans that died on USS Intrepid being native to the planet Vulcan is so close to zero it’s not worth the time to calculate. Just wanted to satisfy my couriosity.)
@111, Ignoring the previously established look, history, etc. is a perfectly legitimate creative decision. So why not admit it? Lethe doesn’t match what Amanda says about Sarek’s feelings for Starfleet or the nature of his disagreement with Spock. Fine. It’s a new show. But don’t pretend there isn’t a dissonance.
@111 – krad: clap clap clap clap. I’m getting a bit tired of people making bold claims about a show they admit to not have watched.
@102, PrincessRoxana – fair point. Makes sense. But all that means is that the Vulcan Division of Star Fleet is concurrent with the VEG. Sarek at least considers them inferior.
And post-TOS, we see greater integration and no mention of member governments having fleets independent of Star Fleet. So pre-Federation ships and crews are either decommissioned or absorbed into Star Fleet.
@@@@@ 107 – JanaJansen – really? So the only mention of the Vulcan Expeditionary Group (and I really wish they chosen something with a less silly acronym) is in Lethe?
I really built my hypothesis on an unsupported foundation. <sigh>.
@110/LordVorless – yeah, I’ve now read up on it. :)
In-Universe, it could be it uses the Vulcan word for Intrepid. As it’s a concept, the Universal Translator just kicked in, which it wouldn’t for culturally significant names.
112, I don’t know that it’s ever come up that somebody, non-Vulcan, was born on the planet of Vulcan. Maybe they should rename their planet.
117, you could certainly argue it wasn’t a Starfleet vessel, it wasn’t identified or shown in the episode.
@113 / PrincessRoxana – wait, you haven’t even watched it? The show I’m watching is firmly rooted in previously-established history. A history which is notoriously inconsistent, and subsequent attempts to reconcile it (and now with how it significantly diverges from Real World history) sometimes seem to increase the dissonance.
Something really interesting the writers are doing is that they do seem to be acknowledging the dissonance. When they delve into the history, they filter it through a specific individual. Take the pivotal memory in Lethe; it’s a scene stuck on repeat in a dying man’s brain, marinaded in guilt. Sarek’s almost-mortal injury has stripped his logic away. Sarek is not a reliable witness, but the scene is all from his perspective.
Michael’s memory of that moment is equally compromised by emotion, and sabotaged by not understanding exactly what was happening.
So the writers (it seems to me) are trying to weave a consistent whole by showing the inconsistencies stem from the biological frailty of memory (I wanted to say human frailty, but Sarek … isn’t. )
How can you pass judgment without examining the primary evidence? Hearsay isn’t admissible in court, and it seems like you’re making decisions based on other people’s comments – which is obviously just a form of hearsay…
So, my errors set aside, the VEG are only mentioned in Lethe, so there’s nothing in canon (yet) to contradict my hypothesis that Sarek took his anger at being estranged from his son and guilt over his daughter’s position by causing its dissolution.
(Instead of being honest with his family).
@118, LordVorless – well, Kelvin-timeline Vulcans don’t have to worry about the name of their planet of origin anymore…
According to Memory Alpha, the 2008 remastering gives the Intrepid a more detailed paint-job, confirming “in canon” it’s a Star Fleet vessel. <shrugs>
@119, I’m a nitpicker, or put more generously I’ve got an elephantine memory for detail. The look of DSC is all wrong. Tacking Michael onto Spock’s family isn’t really a continuity issue but it’s completely unnecessary. TOS Sarek would logically not want his daughter to serve in militaristic Starfleet either. As for the Gorn and the Tribble and Harry Mudd and all the other little details – ick. Like I said, fine, creative decisions and all that. I probably wouldn’t care about any of it if DSC was telling a story I was interested in seeing. It isn’t. That’s the real reason I don’t want to pay for it not the nits.
121, technically for Court Martial, not for Immunity Syndrome(where said vessel remains unshown AFAIK), so you could still quibble over them still possibly being two different ships if you wanted.
One thing I admire about Star Wars over Star Trek is their willingness to embrace their past, silly bits and all. Enterprise and Discovery seem like they’re embarrassed to look too much like TOS, even an updated version. The JJverse embraced the uniforms but went overboard in the “Everything is bright and shiny” look for the ship itself, primarily the interiors.
It’s interesting how often Amanda’s role in an episode is being dead (Yesteryear, Sarek, ST09). You want to kick Spock in the ‘nads, kill him mom.
As near as I can tell the only reason for killing Amanda in ST09 was so Spock and Sarek could bond over their manpain. As if Amanda wasn’t capable causing them both all the angst any writer could want.
@124/kkozoriz: If they had been going for visual continuity, it wouldn’t look like TOS, it would look like “The Cage”. Which was just as devoid of colour as DSC, so you could say that they got that one right.
@125/Roxana: ST09 is so misogynistic. Kirk’s mother is unfit to raise her son, Spock’s mother is killed, and Gaila is in love with a jerk like young Kelvin Kirk. Uhura is portrayed okay, I guess.
105. LordVorless: Thank you. Figured it was a trope, but hadn’t seen the acronym before.
@125, Jana, Uhura is reduced to a love interest who seems to be more focused on her lover’s issues that the crisis they are supposed to be handling.
@119 – Will: A lot of people are doing that, declaring Discovery anathema without even having seen it. You are allowed not to like it, or not being interested in even trying it out, but tacking on reasons that really make no sense as criticism, and passing on judgment about things without seeing them, that’s not right.
Just found another thread left hanging. I’m sorry for not replying sooner, and possibly resurrecting dead comment sections… I’m going through old tabs on my browser and realised I’ve left a load of threads hanging.
@122/PrincessRoxana – YMMV, and fair play for deciding where you stand. It’s just that I find it as mystifying as to why people enjoy watching televised sports. Watching something for enjoyment, I can get my head around. Hate-watching something so you can rant about it later, I can just about get my head around. Avoiding something because the concept is anathema, that’s what I do with televised sports and Michael Bay’s Transformers. It’s the democracy of economics: by refusing to show interest, you lessen the money invested. Yet you seem to be tormenting yourself by reading KRAD’s summaries, and then making comments to the affect that you’re glad you didn’t waste time on it. And you seem to <looking for the best word> … enjoy doing this. If you find the series concept so inimical, why spend any time on it? Especially as it’s likely to stir debate, and therefore interest, leading to more investment in further series?
@123\LordVorless – fair point. Thank you for the consideration. But at this point I’ll try and gracefully concede I was totes wrong, albeit probably far too late… :)
@124\kkozoriz – yeah, it’s like Disco was tempted (like with Lorca’s pet Tribble) but then sharply drew back. What happened to the poor thing?! Although Lorca’s bridge is anything but bright and shiny. I like how they had Lorca’s photosensitivity to explain the design choice.
@129\MaGnUs – I’m not sure I’d go as far as you in saying it’s not right. It’s mystifying, but if they are willing to be honest and tell us they don’t share the same frame of reference, we’re able to judge the weight we should give their words. It’s behaviour that’s puzzling, but if you’re playing by the rules, you should… wait, I feel a sports metaphor coming on. I need to go and lie down until it goes away. :)
No worries, I have had time to calculate the odds mentioned above.
M4rl00k…oh shoot, damn, that’s the wrong Post-it note.
Um, whatever you do, don’t use that to log into any secret self-aware super computers.
Will: Of course it’s wrong. Saying once “it’s shit” without having seen it, that’s gag reflex, okay. Repeatedly reading the reviews and giving opinions on the show without having watching it, that’s definitely wrong.
Emily,
Something like the perfect dad was metaphorically portrayed by Patrick Stewart in the TNG episode “The Perfect Mate”. A character, the Metamorph, is genetically predispositioned to please and to win the approval of the first man that she meets. Picard makes it clear that the only thing that would truly please him is for her to become her own person, an individual. The lesson is learned, but imperfectly. She cannot help identifying with his sense of duty, of doing the right thing, and so goes on to fulfill her intended role of peacemaking intermediary between the two planets in her solar system. If we metaphorically reinterpret the Metamorph as a daughter, eager for the approval of a father,, then Picard is something like the perfect Dad.
@133: Keleborn: Noooo… not a dad.
The metamorph is interested in Picard as a lover. She wants to imprint on him as a way to attain her independence. She goes on to fulfill her function, but she has not imprinted on her arranged mate (a total idiot who doesn’t even notice her charms).
To me this implies she slept with Picard and so broke free of her future life of civil bondage. There’s enough room to interpret that they didn’t spend the night together. My best friend and I argued about it when the episode originally aired. Now that he’s an adult, married with children, he sees my point of view better.
@134: Sunspear,
You do know what metaphor is, don’t you?
Taken literally, the episode doesn’t have the slightest thing to do with parenting.
Whether that is what the writer intended or not, I say: Who cares? The metaphorical interpretation still works.
t
@135: Don’t think that word means what you think it means…
She clearly makes Picard uncomfortable coming on to him. And you want to make that into a father/daughter metaphor? Bit creepy.
@136: Sunspear,
When taken metaphorically the episode has nothing to do with sex. It is about the desire for approval and the tendency of young children to imprint upon the attitudes of their parents. This can be seen most painfully in children who are physically abused. They don’ t conclude that there is something wrong with their parents; they conclude that there is something wrong with themselves.
Perhaps you think I’m confusing the words “metaphor” and “metamorph”. Well, I’m not. Is it possible that you are?
She doesn’t make Picard “uncomfortable” when she comes onto him. She makes him annoyed.
There are stories that do feature an older person raising a younger one for some purpose or another.
Scary to think about it being compulsive biology though.
@137. Keleborn: “… the tendency of young children to imprint upon the attitudes of their parents.”
The theme of the episode is categorically not that. Picard as mentor, yes. Father figure, definitely no. He is acting as a diplomat. Any parenting metaphor is simply not there. You welded it on.
@139 Sunspear,
“You welded it on.”
Ah, so you are capable of understanding metaphor after all! Even if you’re not willing to accept that metaphor is in the mind of the beholder.
Speaking literally, your interpretation that the Metamorph deliberately chose to imprint upon Picard as a way of securing her independence was an interesting one.
Nothing to do with parenting that episode. Sunspear is right.
Knowing a lot of what you outline here, and knowing canon in the intervening 30 years+, tell me if the moment in Voyage Home when Sarek admits that opposing Spock’s entry into starfleet may have been in error. That really gets to me now, watching those two superb actors show restraint and tons of emotion under the surface from years of pent-up hostility between them.
It’s a beautiful moment and gets better with the passage of time and all the new canon that has come since.
It certainly is.
All are almost disrespecting Sarek. What has he every done to you?
He a made up character. I respect the original actor a long with the 2009 actor. I dont know anything about Star Trek: Discovery.
But I see a lot of people disrespecting one of my favorite Vulcans. I love Spock dont get me wrong. I also love Amanda.
But all I see are people complaining about Sarek behavior. Have you not thought maybe Sarek experienced something terrible as a child? For all we know he failed kolinhar.
As to how Sybok was treated. His so called mother ignored Sarek after their son was born. She basically dropped her full-blood Vulcan son at 7.
On a human woman who just married her ex-husband. All because the princess wanted to go back to her temple worship. So I think Sybok mother is to blame for what happen to him.
In Spock case, it would be hard on him. Because Sarek wanted perfectionism from Spock. He did not want to see the human factor because he was raised to follow the ICID which is infinity combinations infinity deversitys.
Like I said I dont know anything about Star Trek: Discovery. Maybe it a good thing because they seem to be destroy characters that I love.
Also think about this. We are all different. Sarek has his short comings. Be in the original timeline when he was dying. All he did was cry about the lost relateship that he did not have with Spock.
So ask yourself this would a father grief for not having his son their when he going to die? I know in some of the star trek books that Amanda went through the same thing when she was dying and calling out for Sarek and he did not arrive till she died.
And guess who was by her side when she died. That right her half-human son. Not the man that she was married to and had a son with.
I dont think Sarek was trying to bring emotions back to Vulcan. I think that just people twisting something he said that was a moment when his son was born. Because I figure that Sybok more then likely cried at his birth as well.
@145 / Alanna09618 – having bad experiences doesn’t excuse bad decisions. It may explain them, but not excuse them.
IRL, I think Sir Patrick Stewart’s experiences are relevant.
The discovery [of his father’s wartime experiences and his PTS], Stewart says, has allowed him to “reassess” who his father was, but not excuse the behaviour [of alcoholism and violence towards his mother]. And it has propelled his efforts to help prevent others from suffering. He has signed on as a patron of Combat Stress, a British charity that supports veterans struggling with mental health problems.
These endeavors have brought him full circle. “I work with Refuge for my mother, and I support Combat Stress for my father,” he says.
Knowing somebody did bad things because they were messed up, not malicious, doesn’t excuse them but it can help you forgive them. And that’s good for your mental health.
For those of you interested, I’d whole-heartedly recommend the episode of “Who Do You Think You Are?” Featuring Sir Patrick Stewart. It’s during the journey that programme takes him on that he discovers his father’s past. It’s powerful. There’s a lot to respect in Sir Patrick. The honesty and depth of what he allowed to be shown is one of the reasons I respect him so much.
It’s both awful and awesome to hear him talk about his experiences and relationship with his father. Awful, because, in his own words, no child should learn just when to thrown themselves in front of his mother to stop her getting beaten by his father. Awesome because he talks about it to help others. That certain things are inexcusable, but it’s understandable to hate someone for crossing that line but still care about them. That it’s easy to find yourself going down that route if you’ve had that example growing up, but you should reach out to get help to chose another way. That if you find yourself trapped and being dragged towards that inexcusable line, you should get the help you need to drag yourself back.
Sir Patrick is very careful not to pass judgement on his father (“he did the best he could with what life gave him”) while condemning his father’s actions with language that could not be stronger.
So, umm, yeah. If you’re looking for a complex real-life father-son relationship, this is (a least for me) a good example.
I have to strongly disagree with the fact that Sarek is a terrible father. In fact, I think he’s one of the only redeemable fictional fathers ever. He cared deeply for all his children. He is Vulcan and had no prior experience to human emotions before Amanda. He was trained to bottle up his emotions and keep them in check, not to shower the ones he loves in complete and total human emotions. Yes, that can seem like being a God-awful father at first glance, but that’s a Vulcan father. In fact, there were many emotions that Sarek portrayed towards his children. Yes, at first he disapproved of Spock joining Starfleet, but if you watch the end of The Voyage Home, you will see him telling Spock (in a very Vulcan-like way) that he is proud of his son. He probably picked Spock over Michael for the Vulcan Science Academy to protect her, since he knows Vulcans aren’t very fond of humans. It was the lesser of two evils; a half human or a full human? He loved his kids and he loved his wife. Yeah, he didn’t do everything right, but do all fathers do the right thing 100% of the time? There are way worse fictional fathers out there. Case in point: Howard Stark (who actually abused his son), Darth Vader (who legit tried to kill his son), and John Winchester (who abandoned his sons for weeks as children and told his oldest to kill his youngest).
Seeing everything laid out in this article makes me suspect that while Sarek might not be the worst sapient being, he’s definitely down there on ‘Worst Dad with Best Kids’ lists; actually, seeing this article made me remember my Pet Theory that the best possible casting choice for Sybok of Vulcan would be … Mr Zachary Quinto.
I’d really love to see him show up in an episode of STAR TREK DISCOVERY and be just the most eerily Nice and Enthusiastic Big Brother, just thrilled to meet his Human Sister – presumably while doing something really, really sketchy to further his Search for God in the friendliest way possible – and knowing the House of Sarek, Michael should probably wondering who this perfectly nice monomaniac with the Messiah Complex IS all the while (I’m not sure how the timing works out, but I can definitely imagine Sarek failing to mention that Spock has a biological half-sibling if Michael Burnham shows up after the elder son of Sarek has decamped for Parts Unknown).
(Except maybe William Shatner.)
According to Star Trek Memories, the idea of Sybok retroactively being Spock’s half-brother came from Harve Bennett during the brainstorm process. An idea Shatner initially shot down before being convinced otherwise later on. The character was first conceived by Shatner as a Vulcan radical who was connected to Spock in the past, but not in a brotherly manner.
Correction: Star Trek Movie Memories.