Welcome to Week Two of The Great Hunt. We get some good world building this week, and a lot of running around Fal Dara. I enjoyed the way that these chapters did a lot of world building for Fal Dara, but also combined it with a sense of suspense that upped the interest and the stakes for the reader. We learn a little more about Shinaran customs such as the fact that men and woman might bathe together and yet their apartments are kept strictly separate, just how much respect the Aes Sedai and the Amyrlin Seat have in Shinar, and that the prefix “al” denotes royalty in their language. We also learn that people are really dumb about Padan Fain.
Chapter 1 opens with strange wind rising over the Mountains of Dhoom, flowing over the Blight and into the land of Shienar, where it finds Rand al’Thor atop a tower of Fal Dara, sparing with practice swords against Lan the Warder. Rand is struggling to hold his own when the wind suddenly seems to trap him, holding him and then driving him forward into an oncoming blow from Lan. The Warder is surprised by the move, scolding him for foolishness and worried about Rand being hurt, until Rand explains how the wind pushed him. Looking concerned, Lan tells Rand that strange things happen so close to the Blight, and when Rand insists that this was different, Lan merely offers the open-ended explanation of “For someone like you….”
Lan asks Rand why he hasn’t left Fal Dara yet, and Rand responds that he is determined to learn to use the heron-marked sword his father, Tam, gave him. But as long as he is carrying the sword, people expect him to be able to use it, and that sooner or later he won’t be able to bluff his way out of such a situation. Lan suggests selling it, an idea which Rand vehemently refuses to entertain, but he learns from Lan that, while any heron-marked blade is rare and valuable, this one is especially so, as it was smithed long ago by Aes Sedai wielding the One Power. Lan explains that many powerful weapons were made with the One Power before the Breaking, some which could wield the Power themselves, others which were “plain” by comparison but were still made of metal purer and stronger than any metal that could be made by an ordinary smith. No Aes Sedai makes weapons anymore, but Rand’s sword is one of those old blades that survived even the Breaking.
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The Great Hunt
Rand is alarmed to know that his weapon came from Aes Sedai hands, which again prompts Lan to ask why Rand has not yet left. Rand suggests that it is because he is hesitant to leave his friends, then that it is the way that Nyneave and Egwene look at him, then finally admits that it is because Moiraine has barely spoken to him since they returned from the Blight and the fight at the Eye of the World. Rand feels as though Moiraine has set him adrift after telling him the truth about himself, that he can wield the One Power, insists that she must be able to tell him more. Lan tells him that she has told him all she can and that he should be content, and sets him to practice his swordsmanship forms.
Just then they hear the distant sound of trumpets and drums, and looking out they see a great host riding towards Fal Dara. Horrified, Rand recognizes the banner; a white teardrop shape. It is the flame of Tar Valon, and the women in the host are all Aes Sedai. Lan tells him that the Amyrlin Seat herself has come to Fal Dara, and that it would be better for Rand if he had already been gone a week. Then he leaves. Rand, afraid that they have come to gentle him or maybe to kill him outright, knows that me must flee.
Rand hurries back to his rooms, dodging questions and well-meaning comments about how the Amyrlin Seat must have come because of Moiraine and Rand and their companions, how excited he must be, and so on. Rand brushes them off as best he can, internally horrified by the thought that the leader of the Aes Sedai has come for him. When he gets to the room where he is staying with Mat and Perrin, he finds that servants are taking all of his clothes, as well as his friends’, and replacing them with new ones on Moriaine’s orders. Elansu, the head housekeeper of Fal Dara, tells him off briskly when he tries to protest, then orders him to undress and give him the rest of his old things. In his wardrobe, Rand finds a plethora of new shirts and coats as well as two cloaks, and is shocked by the number as well as the quality. One of the cloaks bears an emblem.
His hand drifted to the cloak of its own accord. As if uncertain what they would feel, his fingers brushed the stitching of a serpent curled almost into a circle, but a serpent with four legs and a lion’s golden mane, scaled in crimson and gold, its feet each tipped with five golden claws. His hand jerked back as if burned.
Rand is terrified of why Moriaine might have had such an emblem put on his clothes, who might have seen it or understood its meaning. He gets dressed, pleased despite himself by the fit of the new garments and boots. He packs up what he can, taking out a hidden bundle that contains Thom Merrilin’s old gleeman’s cloak, harp and flute, and adds that to his collection, as well as his sword and a quiver full of arrows, and a tall bow he made himself.
He takes everything as casually as he can through the keep to the stables, but Rand can’t help but stop and watch the Aes Sedai caravan arriving in the courtyard. He sees fourteen men, Warders like Lan, and fourteen Aes Sedai, plus another standing in front of a palanquin and holding a large staff. They are greeted by Lord Agelmar and Ronan, Elansu’s male counterpart, with a ritualistic call and response. When the Amyrlin Seat exits her palanquin and looks out over the assembled crowd, Rand flinching, feeling as though her gaze physically touched him. He hurries away, telling himself that she cannot yet know who or what he is, wondering if it was she who sent the strange wind against him.
In the stables Rand is told that he cannot have his horse saddled, as it has been ordered that the gates are to be closed and none are allowed to enter or leave without permission. When Rand asks if it is Agelmar who gave the order, the stableman replies “who else?” He then suggests that Rand must be happy, because now that the official greetings are over, the Amyrlin Seat will be sending for him and his friends. Rand takes off at a run.
He goes first to the sally gate, meeting two guards he knows, one of whom is fond of him, but the other is not. Rand hopes that his friend will let him out despite the order, explaining that he wants to go hunting and escape all the hustle and bustle, and asks again if the order is from Lord Agelmar, again receiving the surprised reply of “of course, whose else could it have to been.” But with the other guard there, Rand is out of luck, and he backpedals, not wanting to look suspicious, and declares he’ll go find some peace in the gardens instead.
Every other gate Rand tries is similarly shut and guarded; he doesn’t even try any of them, and instead begins to wander, despairing but refusing to give up all the same. He considers that Moiraine has not done anything to him, despite being an Aes Sedai, has never moved against him, at least as far as he knows. He even wonders for a moment if being gentled would really be so bad, to have it all really over at last. But he remembers Thom Merrilin’s words to him, that the men who have been gentled stop wanting to live, and soon die, and hurries stubbornly on.
He passes through the kitchens and servant’s quarters, wondering all the while if someone who saw him would later hear that he was being looked for, past the armorer’s forge, currently empty, where he seems to feel invisible eyes on him, despite there being no one around. He wonders if it is Amyrlin looking for him, or just his imagination, or perhaps the onset of madness from his use of the the One Power. The feeling fades, then returns again, following him until he comes to a storeroom door behind which he can hear human voices and laughter, and he goes in to escape the unseen watcher.
Inside he finds Loial watching some men playing dice, and the Ogier greets him warmly, remarking upon how interesting it was to see the greeting, and the Amyrlin herself. Rand asks Loial if he knows any secret ways out if Far Dara, but the Ogier tells him that his people only build the old city, Mafal Dadaranell, not this new one. Rand sinks against the wall, murmuring that he needs a way out, and Loial, alarmed at the strange behavior, calls out to Mat and Perrin, who are among the dicers.
Mat asks about Rand’s new clothes, suggesting that he might buy himself some new things as well, since he has done so well at the game of dice. Rand explains about their things being replaced, and that he needs to leave because the Amyrlin Seat has come. When he mentions Lan’s warning, Mat is surprised that the man would ever speak ill against an Aes Sedai, and reminds Rand that Moiraine is their friend, and has never done anything to hurt them. But Rand looks at Perrin’s mysterious yellow eyes and thinks of the cursed dagger than Mat carries and cannot discard without losing his life, and feels differently about that. Rand tells them about the watcher, and about the strange wind that caught and held him, and repeats that he needs to get away.
Mat points out that they can’t leave with the gates barred, and Rand is surprised that Mat would include himself in Rand’s plans. He reminds his friend that Mat must go to Tar Valon to have himself separated from the cursed dagger, but Mat suggests that perhaps Moiraine wasn’t telling the truth, and that he might be better off getting away from the Aes Sedai, too. Rand, knowing how dangerous his abilities are but being unwilling to tell them why, insults the two other men, saying that he doesn’t want to clean up Mat’s messes anymore, and doesn’t want them with him when he leaves Fal Dara. This seems to work, but Perrin reminds them that no one can leave anyway, and Loial reminds them that they are all ta’veren, and that the Wheel dictates their fates no matter what they choose. Mat, not wanting to hear any more about the Wheel and fate, leaves with Perrin, and Rand tells Loial off in order to get the Ogier to go too. He feels sick about it, but he’s glad that he got his friends away from him, so at least they will be safe.
Rand continues deeper into the keep, wanting to hide but afraid that searchers or the unseen watcher will find him wherever he manages to secret himself, until he practically bumps right into Egwene, who has been searching for him. She says that Mat and Perrin told her what he did, and that she realizes why he did it. Rand tries to insult her in the same way and turns away from her, but Egwene throws herself at him and knocks him down. They both threaten each other with the One Power before Egwene points out that what Rand is doing, running and hiding and striking out to distance himself from his friends, is foolish, because he has no real reason to suspect that Moiraine told anyone the truth about him.
Rand tells her what Lan said, which does make Egwene worry, and she decides that she will hide him in the dungeons until they know for sure if anyone is looking for him. She admits she, and Nynaeve as well, sometimes goes down to see Padan Fain. Egwene says that, despite everything that Fain is responsible for, including bringing the Trollocs to Emond’s Field, she is also reminded of home when she sees him, and that he sometimes seems more like his old self, and talks to her about Emond’s Field. Rand decides that if Moiraine says it is safe enough for Egwene down there, then it is probably safe enough for him, only to realize that Moriaine doesn’t know that Egwene goes down to the dungeons. Still, he doesn’t have a better plan and allows her to take him down to the dungeons.
There they encounter an unpleasant guard who is quite rude to them, much to Rand’s surprise. Still, the guard recognizes Egwene and lets them in, giving them a lamp to light their way. Rand is a little worried that they won’t let be let out again, and Egwene admits that the guards seem worse every time she comes down to the dungeons; meaner, more sullen, no longer friendly the way they were at first. She points out some of the prisoners as well, and mentions that they too, seem worse every time she comes.
Rand hangs back as they approach Fain’s cell, keeping in the darkness outside the lamplight. But despite that, Fain looks right at him, greets him by name.
“I feel you there, hiding, Rand al’Thor,” he said, almost crooning. “You can’t hide, not from me, and not from them. You thought it was over, did you not? But the battle’s never done, al’Thor. They are coming for me, and they’re coming for you, and the war goes on. Whether you live or die, it’s never over for you. Never.” Suddenly he began to chant.
“Soon comes the day all shall be free. Even you, and even me.
Soon comes the day all shall die. Surely you, but never I.”He let his arm fall, and his eyes rose to stare intently at an angle up into the darkness. A crooked grin twisting his mouth, he chuckled deep in his throat as if whatever he saw was amusing. “Mordeth knows more than all of you. Mordeth knows.”
Egwene and Rand are both alarmed, and Rand notices that the angle Fain is looking up at would allow him to look straight at the women’s apartments and at Moriaine and the Amyrlin, if there were no stone of the building in the way. Egwene tells Rand that, while Fain is better some days than others, this is much worse than usual, and that she doesn’t think Rand should stay after all. She hatches a new plan, to make it look like he is carrying bundles for her and to sneak him into the women’s apartments, where certainly no one would think to look for him, as men are not allowed in without an express invitation. Rand doesn’t like the idea, but he agrees anyway, and as they leave they can hear Fain calling to him.
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The Ruin of Kings
Whew! A lot happens in these first few chapters, and at the same time, not that much. This is one of those suspense building sections from Jordan, like the chapters of Mat and Rand traveling the road back in The Eye of the World. It also is a good section to throw in some world building, with lots of detailed descriptions of the fortress and people of Fal Dara that might be a little boring without the underlying suspense of Rand’s predicament. It’s a really smart author move.
Rand’s discovery of the origins of Tam’s sword is an interesting one, and another little tidbit for the reader to understand the greater Ages of the world; we’ve seen the White Bridge and a few other old relics from such times, but the sword is an example of Aes Sedai work at the height of their power that is much more intimately connected to the story and our hero’s, which makes it even more interesting than more general world building. Rand isn’t just holding Tam’s history in his hands when he wields the heron-marked blade, he is also holding the world’s.
The arrival of the Amyrlin Seat in Fal Dara really throws a sense of misdirection into the events of this section. Because Rand is so fearful of the consequences of his abilities and afraid of Aes Sedai control and gentling, he fails to consider the other explanations for the strange experiences he has. The wind that holds him comes out of the Blight, not from the direction that the Aes Sedai arrived from, but his immediate suspicion is that the wind was somehow the Amyrlin’s work. He fears that his unseen watcher is the Amyrlin as well, which is a fair assumption, but when he comes in contact with Fain he doesn’t even consider that possibility, despite the fact that he know that the man has been given the power to track Rand anywhere. He is even reminded by the fact of Fain’s ability to sense him when Fain is able to look straight at him even when Rand is hidden in the dark. He is so caught up in his fear of the Aes Sedai that he is isn’t taking certain things into consideration.
Speaking of not taking important things into consideration, Moiriane must have realized by now that Mordeth is in there with Fain, right? And even if this is the first time the man has said that name aloud, it isn’t as though Egwene and Rand wouldn’t recognize the name the moment he uttered it. I was surprised that there was no reaction from them in this scene, than no one seems to be taking an active concern in the deterioration of guards and prisoners. I don’t know how long it has been since Moiraine has been down there, but the guards must interact with other people at some point, and even without the added problem of Mordeth, everyone knows that Fain is a very dangerous Darkfriend, and you’d think that evil influence is something people would want to keep an eye on. And yet that doesn’t seem to be the case. Perhaps Mordeth’s influence puts people at ease despite themselves, making him more easily overlooked even by those who are not swayed by his insidious abilities to tempt and destroy. And I imagine that he’s getting out of that dungeon, sooner or later. He certainly seems to think so.
The fact that Rand has new fancier clothes, as well as the way that many of the Shinaran people see him as a lord or prince because of the coincidence in his name, al’Thor resembling a prefix used in their land to denote royalty, thematically signals the proper beginning of his journey to being a great nobleman and hero, as the Dragon Reborn. I was particularly struck by his musings about having new boots before the old ones wore out. For a poor man or commoner, replacing something before you have to is a waste of money and resources. But from a noble or wealthy man’s perspective, investing in something new before the start of a new journey is a prudent move. It makes me wonder if and when we might see Rand’s perspective shift from the former to the latter; when his acceptance of who he is might coincide with the mentality of a different station.
I was confused by the dragon emblem on the cloak, however; I understand that Moiraine knows who Rand is now, but no one else does yet, including Rand, and such an obvious marker seems like a dead giveaway. I didn’t think Moiraine would have told the Amyrlin, or anyone else, who Rand really was, but wouldn’t that emblem announce his identity to any Aes Sedai or Warder who saw it? Perhaps she expected that Rand would keep it hidden until the time is right? Rand’s reaction to the emblem suggests that he has a pretty good idea of what it means, too. I suppose the most likely thing is that Rand assumes that Moriaine (and perhaps the rest of Tar Valon) might want to set him up as another False Dragon; after all, he’s been warned by both friends and enemies that the Aes Sedai might use him in such a way. But I will have to wait and see for sure.
I don’t love that Mat, Perrin, and Loial are out of the loop about Rand’s abilities. Of course it makes sense that Moiraine would want to keep the information close, and that Rand wouldn’t want anyone to know who didn’t have to. But I can see more separation coming for the three friends who started this journey, and it makes me sad. Perrin is hiding as well, and Mat’s curse will probably continue to cause difficulty for him in ways not yet foreseen. Nynaeve and Egwene may be able to stay together for a long time yet, to journey to Tar Valon and learn to become Aes Sedai, to maintain their friendship and continue to work together, but I imagine that the three young men who began the last book so close knit will soon suffer a parting that lasts a very long time. And it’s hard not to wish that they would confide more in each other, fears of who they are and what they might do aside. Perrin and Rand might do a lot to bolster each other, both facing futures that will be inevitably altered by their abilities, and both without anyone else like them to confide in.
At least Egwene is going to demand that Rand stick around for a while. Whatever else one might think of that girl, she is both stubborn and crafty. I thought the bit of her knocking Rand down and sitting on him was really funny, as well as both of their childish instances that they will use the One Power against each other, even though neither has enough control to do so safely, or at all. It will be interesting to see what Egwene is willing to do to protect Rand going forward, and it’s nice to see her siding with him even though it means she might possibly be going against Moirane and the Aes Sedai whose ranks she wishes to join. But I suppose that her secret visits to Padan Fain are a less nice part of her rebellion against having to tell Moiriane everything and always follow her judgement; that seems very dangerous, bordering on foolish.
Next week we finally get to meet the infamous Amyrlin Seat, and, to my great pleasure, we will see things from Moiriane’s point of view. I hope you’ll join me for Part 3, covering Chapters 4 and 5, and in the meantime, I will see you down in the comments!
Sylas K Barrett is very curious to know if dragons are or were real in the world of The Wheel of Time, or if the tittle of the defender of the Light comes from a purely mythical creature. He is also on vacation this week, so he apologizes if he’s not in the comments much.
I really liked the interaction of Rand and Egwene, knocking him to the ground and arguing like they were kids again made me LOL! I also was very sad when Rand talked down to Matt and Perrin and Loial. He really needs his friends around him at this time. I understand why he is forcing them away, but it is still sad.
Sylas, I think you’re psychic you are so on the money.
It’s not wrong to trust Moraine, she proved herself a friend in the last book but she undermines herself by being so secretive and manipulative. It’s interesting that Lan, who knows her goals and intentions still thinks Rand would be better off away from her, or at least avoiding other Aes Sedai.
It is very strange that nobody seems to have noticed the effect Fain is having on those around him. One can only assume that they’re all distracted by other issues.
For me, chapters like this are the spices and herbs that give flavor to the world.
Also, you know that events to come are momentous, and well just to be realistic, if I were Rand knowing what little that clam Moiraine has let slip past her lips, I’d be looking to high-tail it outta Fal Dara by any means necessary up to and including the first trebuchet I could build with my fingernails and bared teeth.
On the other hand, Rand does have a stiff-necked Gaidin in his corner so….. wait for it… wait for it…
That’s an interesting question you ask in the signature section at the bottom of the article. //I don’t believe dragons are ever mentioned in the series, outside of the title. Heck, no character in the series even asks the basic question, “What is a dragon?” Weird, now that I think about it.//
Egwene being foolish at times seems to really irritate people, but its the foolishness of youth, not some innate trait. Young people with talent and the kind of quick-witted intelligence that Egwene has often do foolish things, because their belief in themselves and their abilities have not been tempered by the wisdom of experience. Mat has this same traits, and its awesome that his power-up is basically dumping lifetimes worth of experience in him. That’s an amazing super power, when you think of it.
Rand is not super-quick, or super intelligent, and he didn’t grow up displaying any special talents, so he’s more cautious than Egwene, and less prone to foolishness unless Mat gets him into it. Perrin is the slowest of thought (still super insightful, just not quick about it) and least prone to the foolishness of youth.
Its all very well written.
//Siuan did cause the wind to travel faster.//
//Perrin once does ask what a dragon is, and there are the raken and to’raken.//
@@.-@:
I’m pretty sure Rand asks himself in his head in this book if the symbol is supposed to be a dragon, or if dragon even had any meaning outside of Lews Therin. He thinks it in regards to the banner, so probably when Mat finds it in his saddlebags.
@6:
But that’s not the wind that traps Rand. That’s likely our first instance of Bubbles in the Pattern.
Sylas@OP:
Maybe. And maybe there’s a third reason a man who has started channeling might exhibit signs of paranoia.
No one else in the party, including Lan, seemed to know what the symbol on the flag was that they found in the Eye of the World. If Lan, who was raised in a Borderland royal court to one day become King of his dead people, doesn’t know that the symbol is the symbol of the Dragon, its safe to say no one other than an Aes Sedai (and probably not all of them) or court bard would recognize those symbols on his coat.
Moderator or Sylas.
2 small things.
In the 9th paragraph the word “Warders” is missing the “R”.
In the 16th paragraph it says Tar Alan instead of Tar Valon.
Feel free to delete this comment after correction.
@10 – Also in the 16th paragraph, there’s an “Ads Sedai.”
@@@@@ 10 – I like the visual of “Waders” protecting the Amyrlin Seat and other sisters. LOL
Nice article, Sylas, as always.
@10,11,12 – Fixed, thank you!
Another small but important correction – “He sees fourteen men, Waders like Lan, and fourteen Aes Sedai,…” He actually sees sixteen Warders … I wonder if Sylas could predict what the difference signifies.
It is some great writing to basically summarize all the important characters/information from the previous book, introduce new world building/information, and keep it interesting in a prologue and four introductory chapters.
I hate the “hurt my friends to save them” trope. But this is much less egregious than many other examples. He’s got a valid reason to not trust anybody, and also to fear what might happen if they stay close.
Egwene gains major points for me here. Mat is quick to jump to conclusions and likely still influenced by the dagger, but Perrin should have seen that Rand is acting weird and dug deeper. Loial, I also give a pass because of cultural differences and he hasn’t known Rand as long.
@15 – I hate the “deny who I am” trope just as much as the “hurt my friends to save them” trope, but again it is very well done and understandable in regards to Rand. Unfortunately the “deny who I am” trope is tripled with Perrin and Nynaeve thrown in. Tropes in general are fine if they are done well and with good reason, but there are times Jordan overdoes them because they show up too many times and in too many characters.
With the cloak, I think we need to understand the act of sending it to Rand as being as significant as the article itself. Rand is the cloak’s first and most important audience.
Moiraine needs Rand to be the Dragon, because otherwise the world is fucked. Unfortunately, Rand wants to do literally anything but, because his entire life up until this point has been telling him to not do that. Problem!
Her solution is to try and snooker him- to rearrange Rand’s life so that he ends up have no choice but to be the Dragon. This is kind of dumb, because Moiraine is kind of dumb, and unwilling to just have a straight up conversation with a guy using actual words if she can construct an elaborate Rube Goldberg machine to do the job instead.
The cloak- basically just a big flashing “this is your destiny, you cannot escape it” sign- is just the most overt part of this. The rest of the clothing- rich, aristocratic- is just as significant. As is the rumour that Rand’s surname marks him as nobility. That might be coincidence or legitimate ta’veren work, but even if it is Moiraine is absolutely helping it along. She wants to position him as leadership material.
// This is going to be made obvious once the book kicks off in earnest, but I don’t think it’s an unreasonable inference from what we have already //
I find that there is a certain tendency that the same people who seem to despise Egwene from the marrow of their bones also seem to find Matt to be their favorite character, which basically sums that entire dialogue up nicely to me. I’m glad that you enjoy seeing her be both stubborn and clever, you will enjoy most of her story arch a lot.
I like that, intentionally or not, you hinted that you had picked up on the discrepancy of where that order to bar the gates came from. A very lovely bit of work that. “Did the order come from Agelmar” “Who else could give such an order?” Not a single untrue word in that exchange… and yet…
@17 I agree Moiraine was trying to manipulate Rand into a corner so he would have no choice but to go down the path she wanted. Perhaps she didn’t recall the legendary Two Rivers stubbornness. She also overlooks, in all areas, the fact she is dealing with teenagers. A group not particularly known for responding obediently to adult admonitions to avoid certain forms of conduct. Especially when not given a reason other than, it’s dangerous because I say so.
@18 The opposite isn’t necessarily true, though. Mat’s my favorite character, but I also like Egwene quite a lot.
Oh, I agree. And not everyone who dislikes Egwene likes Matt, it’s just an interesting tendency I see play out a lot. Personally, I love as a character though I might spend a lot of time daydreaming about strangling her if I had to live with her irl.
@21 – I have seen the argument before that since both Egwene and Matt are stubborn and clever, then if you like Matt you should like Egwene unless you are sexist in some way. This is a very poor argument as I see the rest of their personalities and motivations as very, very different.
@17:
You’re certainly entitled to whatever opinion about Moiraine’s intelligence you choose to cling to, but given the option between
“try to manipulate 18 year old boy into where the world needs him to go,”
and;
“Hey, Rand, I know you’re just a kid, and you think you’ve got your whole life ahead of you, but in reality, you only have like, 5 years, tops, and I need you to spend those five years running around, saving the world, while the world despises you and fears you and tries to kill you, and, oh yeah, you’re going to go mad, and your body is going to rot, and in the end, you need to die anyway, but somehow in the process of dying, we need you to defeat the metaphysical embodiment of death and chaos, and no one knows how you’re going to do it, least of all me, but would you pretty please just do everything I say for the rest of your life?”
I’m not sure her choice is the dumb one, myself. But that’s just me.
In actuality, Moiraine isn’t choosing one path or the other. There’s a reason Lan is helping Rand learn the sword in this scene. Her name is Moiraine. With very, very few exceptions, Lan’s actions are in reality Moiraine’s actions, whether he realizes it or not. As we see very early on in this book, Lan’s voice will be the one that is just straight with Rand, “Suck it up buttercup. Do your duty, no matter what.” Moiraine knows, is aware, and approves of this.
@23, Right. Spot. On. Anthony! Lan began teaching all of the Two River’s kids in desperation for the escape from The Trollocs. Moiraine approved, he later started Rand on the sword and forms. What comes next though….I think was on his own initiative. But all Lan does is with Moiraine’s approval and sometimes her prompting! Can’t wait, love the next couple of chapters!!
@22:
To your point, the thing most people who don’t like Egwene cite is her self-righteousness. I’m not sure that’s how I would qualify what they don’t like, I think of it more along the lines of being very firm and sure about what is right and what is wrong (which only gets sharpened by her time with the Aiel), but either way, its not a trait anyone would ever accuse Mat of possessing.
Now, I would say, there are a couple of boys/men with that trait in this series (Gawyn & Galad). One more so than the other. The other is easily they most despised and vilified “hero” in this story. And given who he gets paired with, that’s rather ironic. Since Gawyn gets way more hate than Egwene, and its mostly over the same trait, I can’t think that its actually sexism in diguise. Of course, the difference is that Gawyn & Galad are complete wrong in their assurance that they know what is right and best, while Egwene is very rarely wrong when she feels that way.
@24:
Lan certainly thinks what comes next is of his own initiative, and no doubt the specifics of it are of his own initiative. But I doubt there is anyone on the planet that Moiraine knows better than Lan, and she didn’t try to keep him dispassionate from the TR folk at any point. She wants him to be the one they trust, because they’ll never trust her.
I think we actually get Moiraine’s thoughts that having Lan support him is Moiraine’s idea, but the whole specifics of it, with teaching him to act like an arrogant proud warder in front of the Amyrlyn, to be a man while facing someone far more powerful than he, and not someone to be taken lightly, was surprising to her. But I may be misremembering.
@23 AnthonyPero
Her choice is definitely the dumb one.
Manipulating Rand requires Moiraine to always be present to provide him with the proper nudge to go in the direction she needs him to go. Teaching Rand requires Moiraine to actually sit down and talk with Rand about what the Dragon is and does, and how important it is that he know that she’s there to help him, not just to control him.
I think Aes Sedai tend to have deeply rooted beliefs about how others need to be controlled for their “good”. The problem with this is that adults tend to resent being treated like small, stupid children, and that resentment gets in the way when they need to listen to Aes Sedai advice.
Lan’s method of treating Rand like a person works better than the Aes Sedai method of treating him like a reluctant donkey who has to be lured with a carrot or beaten with a stick. Moiraine is so focused on getting Rand to do what she says that she forgets that she won’t always know what to do; the Dragon will have to grow beyond her teachings and develop his own judgement.
Think about how much better the books would have gone if all the Aes Sedai who approached Rand had come to the Dragon as teachers and advisers, rather than puppeteers looking to control him. I suspect he would have been far less paranoid and self-destructive if so many Aes Sedai weren’t obsessed with subjugating him to the Tower.
@27 – The problem is that M is afraid of Duopotamian stubbornness and contrariness – that if she tells Rand what she thinks he should do, he’ll run in the opposite direction and they will lose touch with him completely. That lead to her seeking to steer him through indirect means. It may not be the right conclusion but I wouldn’t view it as a dumb one. M is lots of things but dumb is not one of them.
@23, I would have preferred Moiraine to deal with Rand so:
“Rand you are the Dragon Reborn. I am sorry, there can be no doubt.”
(Listens patiently and sympathetically to to denials and pleas.)
“Rand, I understand. I wish it wasn’t so too but it is. I have spent my life searching for you to be of aid to you. The Last Battle is coming. We must unite the kingdoms to face it. I think taking the Horn to Illianand declaring yourself there would be a good start, what do you think?”
(Rand clings to denials)
“Rand, I will never force you to do anything against your will. I am here to help you not to use or manipulate you. If you want to try to escape your destiny I won’t stop you. But I fear the pattern will.”
@27:
This comment strikes me as… I’m not sure of the right word. But you have to trust an advisor and a teacher. Rand was never going to trust any Aes Sedai who came to him. And again, Lan’s way was Moiraine’s intention. A bit of good cop, bad cop. They’re a team.
And its really not logical to make the assumption that manipulating Rand to take the first steps (rather than bolt and hide and never be found again) means that she never intended to have him be his own man eventually. Later on in the series, we get thoughts from Moiraine and Suian that make it obvious that Moiraine knows he needs more freedom than Siuan would have been willing to give him. But making an assumption that a boy, any boy, would step up and take on this weight of his own accord is preposterous on the surface, and doubly preposterous when we actually get inside Rand’s head here. He was ready bolt. Moiraine’s manipulations are what kept him in Fal Dara. Rand’s POV admits that in the scenes we just read.
Ahhh, the could’a, should’a would’a! I think Moiraine knew what she was doing to a point, and understood how Rand was raised and where! I had misgivings about her treatment of him too, then I remembered, she tried to prepare him the best way she could, knowing he wasn’t going to let anyone lead him by the hand. The Dragon Reborn was a figure of history reviled for what he had done. I think Rand was so scared of becoming him, he didn’t want to learn or even think about it!
@30. Moiraine’s manipulations? Or The Pattern?
@29:
I would be totally sympathetic to that tactic, and in hindsight, it likely would have worked on Rand. However, I’m also sympathetic to the fact that we aren’t talking about getting Rand to wash the dishes, or be nice and dnace with a girl he doesn’t like, or even go and face down an enemy that might kill him. The consequences of failure are the end of reality itself. So I’m a bit sympathetic to Moiraine not wanting to leave that up to the whims or moral fortitude of a teenager.
AND
She does do that, somewhat. Through Lan. Moiraine utilizes both tactics. But her immediate goal here in not giving Rand information is to keep him in Fal Dara and until she can send him with the Horn to Ilian. That’s it. Just that. She fears he will immediately flee if she doesn’t do what she’s doing, and she’s right. We get it from Rand’s own POV.
@32:
Everything is “the Pattern”, except what the Dark One touches. But Rand admits that he stayed because he wanted information from Moiraine. She started ignoring him to keep him in Fal Dara at the end of the last book.
It’s worth pointing out that Moraine // will sit down and be straight with Rand, though it takes her imminent demise/captivity to push her to it. They also know each other much better by then and Rand has gotten past his reflexive denial.//
@35:
Again, in her defense, from the moment Padan Fain steals the Horn, Moiraine is playing catch up. Her original plan is shot, and she clings to it, tries to adapt it, and never succeeds. And its a beautiful narrative. She finally gains Rand’s trust by first learning to trust him. And she uses the perfect metaphor to describe it, when she compares her learning this truth to a truth she learned long ago; in order to gain any measure of control over saidar, you must first surrender to it.
I think Moraine was written perfectly… just as Jordan intended her to be. If they had meaningful discussions there would be a lot less dramatic tension between the two… if you want to stay in character… they came from very different worlds… cut throat Cairhien aristocracy vs. a shepherd from a rural village… and low and behold the main character is not run over by the Mentor character. He has a backbone that won’t bend as she expects… it is central to the books… it adds tension.
@5, Anthony Pero – What a great observation! I have often assumed the differences in viewing Mat and Egwene were more related to her being an overconfident woman versus him being an overconfident man. I had never considered the angle that Mat literally gains the experience to back it up. Maybe that will help me like Mat more after those future events transpire during this read through!
Also, I am in the boat that would never describe Moiraine as unintelligent. She has the “misfortune” (in terms of being taught to manipulate) of being Cairhienin royalty, then her time in the White Tower enhanced her tendency to be manipulative (we know from New Spring that she is accomplished in the Game of Houses). Personally, I think she does her best with what she has. Rand was never going to believe he was the Dragon (HOW LONG will we get him agonizing over this!?) right away, and she will prove (in my opinion) to be fairly adaptable with her style as the series progresses.
*Edited to white out spoilers – I forgot initially to do so!*
@37, of course you’re right. Tension between hero and mentor makes thing more interesting.
Now we know why Tam’s sword didn’t go dull when Rand used it as an axe to build a stretcher.
Egwene said that Moiraine doesn’t go to the dungeons; she orders Fain brought to her. Rand, who has observed Mat’s deterioration, might have recognized it from Egwene’s description if he didn’t have his head full of his own problems. Egwene and Nynaeve didn’t see Mat deteriorate; they only saw the end result very briefly. The guards’ friends have probably noticed how they’re changing, but don’t understand the cause any more than Rand did.
But yeah, Both Egwene and Rand really should have recognized the name Mordeth.
@birgit (#6):
And “to’raken” is rather similar to the Swedish word for “dragon”, which is “drake”. (It’s pronounced in two syllables, not with a diphthong like the English “drake”.)
To those who are discussing Moiraine’s mistakes: Remember what “Bors” thought about Aes Sedai: that they “sat like spiders in the middle of a web, pulling the strings that made kings and queens dance”. The Whitecloaks hate Aes Sedai worse than anyone else does, but they are far from alone in finding the Aes Sedai manipulative. The Aes Sedai have earned this reputation for manipulativeness, and here we see Moiraine living up to it. I think this manipulation culture is so ingrained in the White Tower that it’s very difficult for an Aes Sedai to be honest and straightforward with anyone.
@19 “She also overlooks, in all areas, the fact she is dealing with teenagers. A group not particularly known for responding obediently to adult admonitions to avoid certain forms of conduct.”
Yep/Right on/of course
Then again, how much experience did she have at that age with typical teenagers? In Cairhien, given her background before she joined the Aes Sedai?
And to speak from experience, some people remain teenagers well into their 30s.
It’s a character type, not just a calendar type.
@30 “But making an assumption that a boy, any boy, would step up and take on this weight of his own accord is preposterous on the surface, and doubly preposterous when we actually get inside Rand’s head here. He was ready [to] bolt.”
Again, “Yep.”
I really enjoyed reading about Rand’s panic and trying to escape, it reminds me a lot of a later scene where //Mat is trying to escape from Tar Valon and goes around talking to the guards.. Both find escape in a different way. //
I’ve generally quite enjoyed Egwene, and Mat of course. The only characters that have actively annoyed me, at least that I can think of right now, are the //prophet and Gawyn. Galad I actually quite enjoy. He gets a bad rap. //
And I agree that Moiraine was doing the right thing, she could have tried to talk more earlier, but as people have mentioned, it is not an easy conversation!
This is just my two cents on the whole Moiraine/Aes Sedai manipulation in general
1) They are very used to getting their way for thousands of years and that can be a very hard habit to break
2)This has been reiterated more than once but the oath against lying really is a double edged sword. Its whole purpose is so that the common people will trust them when in reality it often forces AS to be more duplicitous to get people to do what they want them to do. Which they’re very used to happening in the first place.
And 3)// It’s important to remember that on one level or another Rand in particular scares the ever loving crap out of every single one of them. AS tend not to handle change very well in the first place and Rand represents the ultimate change. In their fear they triple down on their manipulations because he scares them to their core. It’s worth noting that EVERY person, channler or not, who has ever been able to really connect with Rand and talk with him like an adult are the ones who don’t fear him. It’s why so few Aes Sedai end up in his confidences//
Other than that this was another great recap. I do think that barring a couple of choice scenes in The Dragon Reborn, The Great Hunt is my favorite of the first 3 introductory books and I’m looking forward the these readthroughs even more than usual.
And this is when I really start to dislike Egwene. Why is it always seen as humorous and positive when a woman takes away a man’s agency?
I like the comparison of the procession to a “singing serpent.”
Ah, the beginning of what Neuxue laughingly calls “the Make-Rand-Blush Game.” ///And the “I am not a lord” refrain./// But not the beginning of the “lack of communication causes Big Problems” pattern, because that started long ago.
///Sure you “accidentally” channeled the One Power, Rand. Just as Mat will accidentally marry the Seanchan Empress. Prophesy will have its way.///
On my first read, I was delighted by Egwene spending time with Fain, because I’m a pushover for villains and people who like them or treat them kindly. ///It still delights me, despite having proven Very Unwise Indeed.///
@2 – //it is reasonable that there is another explanation, Moraine explains later on that she knew that if she tried to “herd” Rand into anything even while sharing information with him and really meaning all only for his own good that his 2 rivers stuborrnes would made him rebel every time, so she intently backed off to show him that she doesn’t want to control him and that once he believes that he would trust her to confide in her, until now it’s what she explains, now my other explanation for Lan’s behavior is that he falls in line with that on Moirane’s orders maybe as well, on a different angle, as he does tell him to fear the Aes Sedai (but NOT Moirane), and he shows Rand more loyal friendship to him maybe only because that in return would make Rand trust ONLY Lan and Moirane. The other explanation is a cooler one for Lan that he’s a man with his own views and is having a man to man bond with Rand, but it could be both//
@42 – yes, while at first I rather liked //Gawyn// his feeling of lostness and feeling degrated by //Egwene// left his character with little to adore, so he went down the likable list, but the //prophet//? Even as he was supposed to be despised, but I don’t get what in the overall arch he is supposed to add. It’s like the problem Leigh adressed in //AMOL// as the final clash between //Mat and Fain// was not built up to be in previous books, so it felt left field. That’s what I rather think of //the prophet//. There’s lots of stuff written around him and I don’t see how that is justified.
@44
Why is it always seen as humorous and positive when a woman takes away a man’s agency?
If you think that’s what happened here you need to do some serious soul searching. Rand was acting the prick and she rightly called his ass out on it. Then she promptly tried to help him do what he was trying to do in the first place, which was avoid/hide from the Amyrlin.
Heh, it’s nice to know that while Sylas is VERY good at catching things he dose miss some every now and again. //Like the importance of Masema who he calls un unfriendly guard.// In all fairness to him there is no way to pick up on that just yet, but judging how awesome he has been at figuring stuff out and picking up on most minor details, it is a bit funny.
On the Moiraine – Rand manipulation, I’m with @Anthony Pero on this one. She did exactly what she needed to in order for him to stay in Fal Dara and get her plans on the road. I think she is completely right that if she would have talked to him, or shown more interest in him, he would have spooked an ran away. I don’t necessarily think she manipulated Lan into teaching Rand as much as she knew him well enough to figure he’ll help the boy on his own. She is obviously not perfect and she clings to her plans way more than I’d have liked from someone with her respect for the Pattern and Prophecy (as we’ll see way more in the next books) but she’s doing the best she can and her best is damned impressive.
I’ll also agree that these are the first signs of how annoying Egwene will become (imo). It might be warranted by her character and it might make sense in the narrative, but that doesn’t mean I have to like it.
I never understood either how come no one picked up on Fain’s influence on his guards. I consider that a minor plot hole.
@Moderators – any idea why I cannot see or post comments on Chrome? It is very annoying to have open it in IE every time I want to see new replies or post something.
I aenjoy the world building here in Fal Dara too, which is funny // considering once they leave there are maybe 3-4 scenes in total in all of Shienar in the rest of the series // – right>?
@49 – I had the same Chrome problem for about a week and a half period starting in late July, and it only ended a few days ago. Annoyance level very high.
@@@@@ 49 and 51 It’s happened to me as well. Clearing your cache will normally eliminate that problem.
@50 Well, we don’t // spend time actually in Sheinar, but the worldbuilding is also about the people/character of the nation, of Sheinar and Borderlanders in general, which we see a ton of in the rest of this book and off and on the rest of the series (well, most the time since some of it applies to Lan), especially towards the end. //
I’m loving this read-through. The Wheel of Timeis probably my favorite fantasy series ever, which is saying something. And Sylas’s insights often seem close to prescient.
In any case, I’m very much looking forward to joining these often quite lively discussions in weeks and months to come.
As to the current one, I agree that Moraine is doing the best she can in a game in which the stakes are literally the fate of the world. One might not always agree with her decisions, but dumb she is not.
Moiraine is actually one of my favorite characters, along with Nynaeve, and Min, and Thom, and… Egwene, I’m afraid, is not. While her intelligence and resourcefulness are to be admired, and I certainly respect what she achieves throughout the series, her behaviour towards those close to her–Nynaeve, Siuan, etc.–sets my teeth on edge. I found myself liking her less and less as the series progressed, even as I applauded her accomplishments. A rather odd dicotomy.
Mat, on the other hand, drove me up the wall for the first several books; until he grew up a bit and stopped behaving like such a git. Growl. By the end of the saga I loved him to bits, something I would have given long odds against near the beginning.
Note: message edited by moderator to white out potential spoilers.
@54 or Mod – best to white out most of the names in the second to last paragraph – either not introduced yet or SPOILERS!! or both.
I’m like the only person I know who likes both Nynaeve and Egwene, is bored by Min, and I’m seriously annoyed by //Aviendha//.
These chapters add to the analogy / nod to Tolkien. The dagger representing the ring, a talisman of dark evil that corrupts whomever holds it. Fain in the Golum role having been forced to follow the dagger as well as the three boys. Mat in the Frodo role having held the item for a shorter time but suffering it’s influence more and more.
In book one on the flight out of the Two Rivers when Rand first channeled by mistake it was because of his extreme desire / need to protect Egwene. This desire to protect will be a part of Rand throughout the series and lead to many.. interesting.. issues. It’s what leads him to act like a jackass by pushing away his best friends.
As for Moiraine.. For 3,000 years the White Tower has guided the course of mankind. It has also feared and reviled men who can channel. To her it’s a given that Rand will go mad sooner or later, and that only the White Tower can safely guide him to the Last Battle, after which he can die or be Gentled. She knows that the world needs the Dragon Reborn or all is lost. The Dragon Reborn channels the One Power. She’s also very concerned with the prophecies of the Dragon and that they be fulfilled and, wrongly, thinks she should determine the how and the when those prophecies should be fulfilled. The Wheel weaves as the Wheel will however so buckle your seatbelt!
Moiraine dumb?
I think not.
Rand’s own thoughts reveal just how successful her ‘manipulation’ was. The Dragon on the cloak is the first step in the next stage.
I’m curious why readers insist on espousing open honesty, with people whose most defining character traits have been repeatedly detailed for over a book now, as being centred in their (ranging from admirable to infuriating) absolute insistence on being unreasonable, when it comes to doing what they think is right.
I think @Anthony Pero has nailed it in his numerous comments on this thread.
And Moiraine did too.
Can’t wait to see Sylas’ reactions to getting inside her head on this. And to some of the Aes Sedai we’ll meet presently.
I must admit to having a few mixed emotions with respect to Sylas’ keen perceptiveness in this particular summary. My initial excitement gave a momentary lurch to sour cynicism after one particular line.
However, I’m enjoying his commentary so much, I’ll write it off as my own prejudice as I wait excitedly again for next edition.
grl
I like the small nods to Tolkien in the story. Later on in the Great Hunt there’s this passage. (No spoiler really, but whited out all the same, you won’t get spoiled in any way by reading it.)
//The inn, at the very top of the hill, was stone like every other building in the town, and plainly marked by a painted sign hanging over the wide doors. The Nine Rings. Rand swung down with a smile and tied Red to one of the hitching posts out front. “The Nine Rings” had been one of his favorite adventure stories when he was a boy; he supposed it still was.//
Re. Egwene: She compares closely to //Gawain//, in that //she “knows” that she is right and doesn’t change her opinions until a lot of pain and misery has resulted.// She contrasts to //Galad//, in that //he is always ready to take in new information that changes his evaluation of what is right. He acts quickly and firmly based on the information that he has, but he is also always willing to incorporate new things into his decision-making process. Egwene only does so with great difficulty, and even when she says that she will change her behavior she frequently is lying, with every intention of continuing in her previous path, just underhandedly instead of openly.// Egwene isn’t all that bad about it until later, but you can see hints of it even in EotW. //I guess the big distinction is that Egwene and Gawain always think that they are right, while Galad always tries to do the right thing. It’s a subtle distinction, perhaps, but a very meaningful one.//
Re. Fain: I assume that at least some of the lack of awareness on the part of authorities for the corruption that he is spreading lies in three things. First, it happens slowly, so for the first week or so it would not have been particularly noticeable. Second, as time passed Moraine and Agelmar both were distracted by preparations for the Amyrlin’s visit. And third, Egwene hid her visits from Moraine which precluded her giving any reports on the guards’ behavioral changes (or mentioning anything like Fain calling himself Mordeth). //If there’s one thing that Egwene does consistently, it is go behind peoples’ backs and keep important things secret in an attempt not to be caught.//
I have followed your discussion in the reread with a little interest and some admiration. That you can find enough to interest you in the books to re-read says a great deal about your skill as a writer and analyst.
I read the books from the start of publication to the bitter end with a great deal of impatience. I have always felt that four books would have been enough to finalize the story. The arc of the story was evident early on. I did admire at points the clever way political theory was worked out through the series.
I did not like Brad Sanderson’s ending but then he was far from my favorite author to begin with.
@61 The ending scene was written by Jordan. I think Brandon did an excellent job with what he had to work with. The 2 things I didn’t like with Brandon was.
1. // His inadequate job of getting Mat right in book 12 (was fixed in the other 2 books). //
and
2. // His focus on Androl (because he was allowed to “play around” with that character) when there were so many other interesting characters established that we didn’t see much from in the end (ex Rhuarc and others). //
@@@@@RobMRobM (#28) Also @@@@@ others, I suppose
Contrary to common belief, “dumb” actually isn’t the opposite of “intelligent”. Rather, “dumb” is the opposite of “smart”. And as should have been obvious by the previous 2 sentences: no, “smart” is not the same as “intelligent”.
Actually, the best example I know is myself. According to most people I know in real life, I’m rather intelligent, and I guess I do agree with that. But I also consider myself to be rather stupid.
Essentially, the difference is that “intelligence” refers to the mental capacities a person has; whether “smartness” refers to how effectively they apply those capacities. So, while, Moiraine is indeed highly intelligent, I also agree that for a few books hence, she remains rather dumb too.
I believe Moraine frequently visited Fain/Mordeth and brought Egwene with her. She should have recognized changes and serious changes that portend bad things could happen.. Not sure what Moraine could have been thinking to sew those dragons on his coat when I believe even she did not want him revealed to the world just yet. I find that a bit inconsistent with the plot line and story itself. As far as the term “Al” being a symbol of royalty, Rand’s name is not unique in the Two Rivers area.
Moiraine didn’t visit Fain, she had Fain brought to her. Therefore she didn’t see what was going on in the dungeon.
Rand is the only TR boy with an al name who is in Fal Dara. The girls don’t count because a queen would be el, not al. The many other TR people with such names aren’t around.
Hi everyone! I just discovered this read-through. I’m a big fan of the series and plan to follow along. I’ve really enjoyed Sylas’s analysis so far. This is the first comments section I’ve read through.
To start with something controversial, TGH is easily my least favorite WoT book. There are some good scenes and obviously great characters are introduced, but I sorta think the series doesn’t really find its rhythm until TDR. // Part of the reason I think this is that I find the Ishamael stuff and the Horn of Valere ridiculous, and I suspect RJ wishes he’d done things differently with Ishamael (not making him have these climactic battles with Rand at the end of books 1 & 2) and possibly not including the Horn at all because it’s cheesy AF. //
I also think @Anthony Pero is right about Moiraine.
Mod – can someone please fix 54? Nynaeave and Egwene are fine; the other two names this that paragraph are at least medium sized spoilers that need to be whited out. Thanks.
For me, despite how different they are, Egwene and Mat both irritate me because they both think that the rules don’t apply to them, and they both are constantly drawing attention to themselves and their chosen “image.” For Egwene, it’s that “I work hard and play hard, I always give 110%,” kind of arrogance, and for Mat it’s the “I’m a lovable rogue, a trickster who will try to get away with everything just to show I can,” kind of arrogance. Both irritate me, but I like Mat better because he is truly loyal to his friends when the going gets tough, Egwene not so much.
Nice discussion over Moiraine. I’m with Anthony Pero and other simililar opinions. She had almost impossible task and her own background and life experienses were often more hindrance than help. One can easily see why she did the mistakes as well as her impressive acts.
Re: Fain, I think people not noticing his effect is intentional. We on the outside can see it clearly, but the people he’s influencing – and those around them – are blind to it. It’s how he could cause kingdoms to rot from the inside out, without anyone being like “Hey that evil guy whispering in the kings ear…maybe not a good thing.” It makes his character all the more creepy, that here we see people who should 100% recognize what’s going on – Moraine, Rand, Egwene – being blind to it.
Re: Rand’s clothes. I thought at some point Moraine explains this clearly. She was giving Rand a choice/seeing how he’d handle it. Continue hiding, or wear the Dragon clothes openly. At this point, she wasn’t certain that he wouldn’t let it get to his head…”I am the Dragon Reborn, kneel before me!” basically. But it’s been a long time, maybe she didn’t explain this.
@62 – I more often than not read here that people were dissapointed by Sanderson’s take on //Mat//, can someone care to explain these accusations?
@71 I know my opinions are my opinions but you can check out Brandons own comments on the issue under the heading “The Gathering Storm: What did I do wrong?” on the following link .
https://brandonsanderson.com/the-wheel-of-time-retrospective-the-gathering-storm-what-i-learned/ (link contain spoilers)
It explains it better much better than I ever could
It was not possble to white out the link so there was no idea to white out the heading.
tomas@115: You need to delete the “/ ” from the end of your link to make it work correctly.
Edit: The link now works for me.
umm guys, sorry to be that guy, but I have technical problems opening that site, could someone be generous and copy it to a text file or pdf whatever and maybe please send me? I really want to see that
@73 link-url updated
@74:
Here’s my perspective on it. Whited out //
Mat isn’t “hahaha” funny. He doesn’t make a lot of jokes. He doesn’t say a lot of one liners. He thinks them in his head. He doesn’t actually talk any more than most Two Rivers men. He will sometimes say something sardonic, but the reason readers find him entertaining and funny to read is because of his internal dialogue, and the fact that he constantly lies to himself about himself. He is less self-aware than Nynaeve. But in his case, its blatant and intentional.
Sanderson wrote him initially as the funny wisecracking action hero. It didn’t read well, and it didn’t sit well. But, Brandon to that point hadn’t done a lot of tight, deep POV. So, somewhere in his brain (in my opinion) he mixed Mat up. Those thoughts that Mat had held within his brain were coming out of his mouth, and there were other things too, like him sitting there and telling a long joke, and practicing his backstory. That’s just not Mat. //
I hate falling behind on Tor, but it’s always nice to have these articles to binge.
I really have nothing to add. I was always an Egwene fan (maybe because I relate to her as a smart/ambitious (academic wise) girl) but I wonder if upon another re-read I’ll see more of the unpleasant behaviors others ascribe to her. I also am one who could not stand Mat for the reasons described but he shows his true quality in the end :)
I tend to agree with Anthony Pero that Moraine was basically waking a knife’s edge and doing the best she could in a potential no win situation. Perhaps not perfectly, but I don’t ascribe any ill will to her, even if she did probably at times have blind spots.
@76 Anthony, as I regard you as someone who understands and loves a good character building and characters being fleshed out (maybe also the importance of dynamics between them) , I’d very much like to know your opinion regarding Sanderson’s accomplishements regarding those aspects (this is also a request for other readers here, but I don’t want to change subject that much here). As I only read (of course the end of WOT) the first two Mistborn novels and a short story posted here in Tor, I couldn’t shake the feeling that he is no RJ or JKR when it concerns character based stories. I thought diving into way of kings, as I do believe he is capable of worldbuilding and twists and other traits as an author, but for me to hang on to long series depends on the characters. So if you read his books, I didn’t care much for Vin and co. in Mistborn. I can’t describe it right now, but that wasn’t it for me, so commenting on your post in @76 about deep POV at that time, did Sanderson improve? Did he deliver worthy epic darn long stories when you regard the characters? (I didn’t even care about the 3rd novel meaning the end for Vin… maybe I’ll try it once, I don’t know.)