Alice: Welcome back to the Oathbringer reread—for two chapters this week. First we’ll go back in time with Dalinar in the early years of his marriage, then we’ll rejoin Bridge Four on the Shattered Plains for a series of poignant scenes. (Also known as “In Which Alice Cries a Lot”)
Lyn: (And “In Which Lyn Joins Her And They Are Both Sobbing Messes Together) Also, fair warning, this is a long one, brightlords and ladies. There’s a lot to unpack in these two chapters—a lot of pain, a lot of healing, and a lot of familial love.
Reminder: we’ll potentially be discussing spoilers for the ENTIRE NOVEL in each reread. There’s a little bit of overarching Cosmere discussion in The Singing Storm section, specifically regarding the epigraph. If you haven’t read ALL of Oathbringer, best to wait to join us until you’re done.
Chapter Recap
WHO: Dalinar; Rock
WHERE: Kholinar; Shattered Plains
WHEN: 1149, Weeping (24 years ago); 1174.1.6.1 (same day as Chapter 35, a few hours later)
In Chapter 36, Evi is pregnant with Adolin and she and Dalinar have a discussion during the Weeping about religion, war, and Dalinar’s character. Gavilar appears at the end and it is revealed that Dalinar didn’t actually kill the boy in the Rift, and now the area is in rebellion.
Chapter 37 revolves around Rock, who is busy making stew for Bridge Four as they practice being Radiant. Kaladin helps Hobber to learn to breathe in Stormlight, and his paralyzed legs are healed. Renarin joins them, and Kaladin agrees to join Elhokar on his mission to Alethkar in 20 days. In the distance, a group of honorspren watch and assess as Bridge Four practices. Then, finally, Rock spies the approach of a caravan—his long-estranged family, come to join him at last.
The Singing Storm
Titles: Hero; The Last Time We March
A: These have to be two of my favorite titles in the book. The first comes from this line:
In that moment, he didn’t care. So long as he could be a hero to this woman.
As I think I’ve mentioned before, we had the opportunity during the beta to suggest quotes from the chapter that we thought would make good titles. In this case, the first suggestion on the list was “Hero,” which I promptly upvoted. I did make a different suggestion (As White As a Sun at Night), but with the comment “Partly I think this is just funny, and partly I think it fits the unexpected nature of the sequence of Dalinar’s feelings. But I still like ‘Hero’ better. Please make it ‘Hero,’ because that line made me cry.” You know, it still does, and I’m so glad Emily went with that!
The second title is in this segment near the end of chapter 37:
“No,” he said. “It will be a privilege to carry him one last time, for my family.” … “We take to the skies, Stormblessed. We will walk no more in coming days. This is the end.” … “Ha! Do not look so sad. I left great stew back near city. Hobber will probably not ruin it before we return. Come! Pick up our bridge. The last time, we march not toward death, but toward full stomachs and good songs!”
And that one makes me cry too. What a beautiful scene.
Heralds
For Chapter 36 we have Nale: Judge, Just/Confident, Skybreakers; and Vedel: Healer, Loving/Healing, Edgedancers.
A: For me, Nale reflects multiple facets of Dalinar’s decision nine years before, to leave Tanalan’s young son alive. He made a judgement call then; now Evi praises him for it, while Gavilar is irritated about it—and Dalinar judges that whatever the consequences, it’s worth it to be a hero to his wife. Vedel could represent several things—a healing in their relationship, or Evi’s pregnancy, among others.
Chapter 37 shows Vedel: Healer, Loving/Healing, Edgedancers; and Taln: Soldier, Dependable/Resourceful, Stonewards.
A: These both seem fairly obvious. There is a lot of healing going on here, both physically and emotionally. Not for everyone, but enough to make it a strong theme. There’s not a lot of actual soldiering (just Kaladin helping the wagon folk drive off the Voidbringers), but there’s always an undercurrent of Bridge Four as soldiers, plus the conversation with Renarin and Rock’s own thoughts about himself. Add to that, these guys are dependable and resourceful enough to justify Taln’s presence right there.
Icon
Reverse Kholin Shield (for Dalinar’s flashback); Bridge Four (Rock’s POV)
Epigraph
You mustn’t worry yourself about Rayse. It is a pity about Aona and Skai, but they were foolish—violating our pact from the very beginning.
L: Aona and Skai are the Shards from Sel, the world of Elantris, right? And the violation of the pact was the fact that… they settled on the same world? And if that’s a violation, aren’t the two Shards—Ruin and Preservation—on Scadrial violating the pact too?
A: Sure looks like it to me!
L: What exactly do we know about this pact, anyway? Is it all WoBs, or is there in-text information other than this little snippet?
A: Well, I’m a little behind on my WoBs these days, but I think this might be the first textual evidence of an actual “pact” among the Vessels. The epigraph for Chapter 39 touches on it, at least: Edgli seems to interpret “we would not interfere with each other” to mean that no two Shards should go to the same world. Arguably, Dominion/Devotion, Ruin/Preservation, and Honor/Cultivation would have claimed (originally) that they weren’t interfering with each other, they were cooperating. On Scadrial, we know they eventually failed to cooperate and did indeed interfere; Sel and Roshar present no evidence of a failure to work together that I can recall.
L: And Rayse is the current vessel containing Odium. So why shouldn’t the person the author is talking to worry themselves over him? He seems like a pretty huge threat to… just about everything.
A: I know, right? He’s interfering with everyone he can, and I’d think the writer of this letter ought to be worrying about him herself, rather than telling other people not to worry. It’s possible, I suppose, that she just thinks Hoid shouldn’t worry about Odium and should let the other Vessels take care of the situation, but I’m not convinced of that yet. She sounds more peevish than confident.
Stories & Songs
“If you wish to meet the One in person, you must travel to the Valley,” she said. “There you can speak with the One, or to his avatar, and be granted—”
“The Old Magic,” Dalinar hissed, opening his eyes. “The NIghtwatcher.”
L: Very cool that Evi’s religion deals with Cultivation, if we’re assuming the avatar she speaks of to be the Nightwatcher and the One to be Cultivation herself. She’s misgendered Cultivation, but who’s to say that a being like Cultivation is constrained to one gender, anyway?
A: Maybe Cultivation is one of the originally-a-dragon Vessels! Or something else, for that matter.
L: It’s likely that the gender either was never known by her people, or that it’s been changed over time.
A: Very true. It’s worth noting how much more the western kingdoms accept Cultivation as part of their religion, where the eastern ones call it “pagan” and “heresy” to even acknowledge her existence. Methinks they have a bit to learn…
He closed his eyes, kneading and humming his mother’s song to a beat he could almost, barely, just faintly hear.
L: !!! (Insert Metal Gear Solid alert noise here)
A: I loved this. We’ve been told that the Horneaters have Parsh blood; I’d say it runs strong in Rock, if he can hear the Rhythms.
There were legends of [dark gods like the Unmade] in the Peaks; Lunamor’s great-great-great-grandfather had met with one while traveling the third divide.
L: Now that’s a story I’d like to hear someday.
A: No kidding!! I wonder if we’ll ever get it. And maybe they’re back?
The Peaks, our home … something is wrong. Very wrong.”
A: On a guess, this has to do with Odium’s forces interfering with the Shardpool there? Or an Unmade?
L: Something that I hope we discover soon! I doubt Sanderson would have mentioned it if it were never going to come back, but when we find out? Who knows…
Relationships & Romances
She was a sweet, loving woman who deserved better than the treatment he gave her.
L: Well, on the plus side, at least Dalinar recognizes this. And he does seem to be making an effort to forge connections with her here. He opens up to her more here than he has to anyone else we’ve seen him talk to in these flashbacks, talking about whether he can change, about religion… Their relationship isn’t completely frigid and unloving.
A: I’m always astonished at how much Evi seems to love him. She calls him “beloved” in this chapter, and as much as she’d like him to take a different angle on… well, on life in general, it appears that despite the original reason for the marriage, she really does love him. It’s like she decided if she was going to marry him, she’d throw everything she had into making it work. And Dalinar doesn’t exactly reciprocate, but…
L: He does appear to be trying. I can only imagine how hard arranged marriages like this would be, especially when you’re already in love with someone else. Which leads us to Navani:
[Navani]’d talked and talked about her research into spren, and Gavilar had simply grunted, while making notations in glyphs on a set of his maps. She’d spoken with such passion and excitement, and Gavilar had ignored her.
L: This makes me so sad. I think most of us have had this experience before, or at least, I know I have—talking animatedly about something that we love only to realize we’re boring the person we’re conversing with. And for that person to be your husband? Ouch. And poor Dalinar, sitting there watching this and longing to be with her.
A: Yeah, this was very frustrating to read. Gavilar doesn’t seem to have been interested in his wife’s pursuits AT ALL, and while Dalinar probably wasn’t either, he was at least interested in her. That’s the point where Gavilar completely fails, and it burns me up. You don’t have to share a consuming interest in your partner’s hobbies, but you can at least have the courtesy to be interested in the person.
L: Yeah, it doesn’t seem as if he’s really investing any time or energy into the marriage… past what’s required of him for procreation, anyway. At least Dalinar is kinda sorta trying to form a bond.
“You spared the child.” … “Oh, Dalinar.”
He felt a swelling of pride.
[…]
In that moment, he didn’t care. So long as he could be a hero to this woman.
L: ::sniffle:: He wants to be better, in order to make her happy. There is love there, growing ever so slowly in the poisoned soil of his soul.
A: This was the first chapter where I was really excited about the potential for these two. It had its moments, like this one and the first one you quoted here, that are just hopeful. But at the same time there’s that bit in the middle, where he keeps thinking of Navani and how Gavilar doesn’t appreciate her. Which is true, but he’s a little too personally invested still. It’s never good for a marriage when one partner can’t quite let go of another person.
L: Unless it’s set up as a polyamorous relationship, like in Wheel of Time. And even those have their issues…
A: There’s a lovely bit of foreshadowing here, too. Dalinar is so happy to “be a hero to this woman,” even though he’ll let her down many times and eventually be directly, if unintentionally, responsible for her death. A long way in the future, we’re going to see his nephew step up to this same task. Elhokar will try to save his wife and son, and when it’s clear that Aesudan is beyond his reach, he’ll give his life to “be a hero to the one [he] can save.” And I just got something in my eye…
L: Oh stars and stones… ::sniff::
A: On the more cheerful side, I have to point out that this is where we learn that Adolin is on his way. Baby bump FTW!
Bruised & Broken
“Can’t you just enjoy it, Dalinar?”
“Enjoy what?”
“Your life.”
[…]
“It’s like you only live when you can fight,” she continued. “When you can kill. Like a blackness from the old stories. You only live by taking lives from others.”
L: What a terrifying thought, especially for someone as pacifistic as Evi. Seeing Dalinar this way really drives home to me how very broken he is, but he doesn’t realize it. He’s so focused on death and the Thrill that everything else has lost its flavor. I wonder if, when he was younger, he was the same way? I’d imagine that growing up Alethi did him no favors in this regard.
“Can a man actually change, Evi? Like those spren change?”
“We are all different aspects of the One.”
“Then can you change from one aspect to another?”
L: I mean, this is Dalinar’s whole character arc right here. Changing from a man of violence to a man of justice. In his case, it just takes a little (okay, a lot of) outside influence in order to begin the change.
He remembered that day. He remembered darkening that doorway, the Thrill pulsing inside him. He remembered a weeping child holding a Shardblade.
The father, lying broken and dead behind. That soft voice, pleading.
The Thrill had vanished in a moment.
“He was a child, Gavilar,” Dalinar said, his voice hoarse.
L: ARGH, this moment. This moment made me SO HAPPY. I was so glad that Dalinar had stayed his hand and spared this child. It made his warmongering almost… acceptable, that he still had that spark of humanity and compassion remaining within him.
A: It was a beautiful thing, and I too was delighted that he had not killed that boy. I’ll admit that I thought it might turn out to be a good thing…
L: Until we returned for “Rift Part Two: Inferno Boogaloo,” anyway.
In those chasms, Lunamor had found himself again after a long time being lost. Renewed life, renewed purpose.
L: And so it begins.
A: (Every time that line comes up, I can’t help following it with “There is a hole in your mind.” It’s shocking how many times “a hole in your mind” fits the relevant character in The Stormlight Archive, though.)
“Teft didn’t come back to the barracks last night, sir,” Leyten called, looking uncomfortable.
L: Oh, Teft. :(
Some days, it seemed you couldn’t break Kaladin Stormblessed with all the stones on Roshar. Then one of his men would get wounded, and you’d see him crack.
[…]
“Kaladin,” Lunamor said softly. “This thing we have begun, it is still war. Men will die.”
L: Oh, Kaladin. Poor, poor Kaladin. You can’t save them all, dear heart.
A: But he’ll try. He’ll all but destroy himself, trying to save them all…
L: It kills me to see him do this to himself, but on the other hand… I wouldn’t want him any other way. His dedication to saving others is what makes me love him so much.
…Renarin stepped towards him, as if sitting at the side and watching was his place too.
“Hey! Renarin! … I could use some help with this bread,” Lunamor said.
L: I love how Rock consistently strengthens the bonds of fellowship within Bridge Four. He’s like the glue that holds them together. … Which, knowing stories as I do, makes me very worried for him.
A: Speaking of Rock…
How could he explain this? The bridge runs, the cracks in his soul. How could he explain that the man she’d always said was so strong had wished to die? Had been a coward, had given up, near the end?
A: I’m really torn about where Sanderson is likely to go with this. On the one hand, we’ve got the probability of what you just said about the likely fate of the one who holds them together. On the other hand, we’ve got Rock specifically thinking about cracks in his soul—the kind of cracks that we know open a person to the spren bond. He’s probably going to do both—and then I’ll have to cry my poor eyes out! Again.
He watched, and was glad to hear Unkalaki again, a proper language. Glad that the other men did not speak it. For if they did, they might have picked out the lies that he had told them.
L: This kills me. Earlier I said that he was the glue holding the group together, but this… the fact that he’s lying to them, makes him stand outside the group, a little. He can’t trust them enough to open himself up, to admit his mistakes or his sins or however he sees it. I imagine he’s probably afraid of what they would say or do, if they knew the truth. He can take the pain of the others away, but harbors his own deep inside, unwilling or unable to allow them in to help ease his own burden. All of the bridgemen carry their own bridges within them—Kaladin his guilt over not being able to save everyone, Teft his addiction and his lack of self-worth, etc… Which is why this chapter was so poignant. The bridge is symbolic of the baggage they all carry.
Together they carried the bridge on one final run—reverently, as if it were the bier of a king, being taken to his tomb for his final rest.
A: ::sobbing::
Squires & Sidekicks
A: Heh. Everything in this chapter could fall in here… but I’ll try not to quote the entire chapter. Really.
L: Yeah, this is going to be a long section this week, but that’s fine. All of these characters are important in their own ways, and the companionship of Bridge Four is a central theme for Part 2.
The men of Bridge Four had been augmented by some members of other bridge crews, and even a couple of soldiers that Dalinar had suggested for training. The group of five scout women was surprising, but who was Lunamor to judge?
L: Love that other scouts have joined Lyn! I’d love to learn more about them.
A: I think we see one of them in action later, maybe. We’ll have to watch for them. But I keep wondering whether their presence is surprising to Rock personally, or surprising in the context of the Alethi culture.
Why was Kaladin kneeling before Hobber’s stool, holding out… a gemstone?
[…]
“Being a Radiant isn’t so much about strength or skill, but about your heart. And yours is the best of all of us.”
L: Is Rock cutting onions? I really hope that we see more of Hobber in later books.
A: I can’t not quote this additional bit, because I get caught between cheering and crying every single time I read it:
Several windspren turned toward Hobber, and for a heartbeat Lunamor thought that everything else faded. Hobber became one man alone in a darkened place, fist glowing. He stared, unblinking, at that sign of power. That sign of redemption.
The light in Hobber’s fist went out.
A: We’ve talked a lot about the theme of redemption in the last few weeks, mostly in the context of Dalinar and Moash. Turns out, most of the bridgemen (and a few other folks) feel a need for redemption. We see it in this chapter: Rock, Kaladin, Teft, Hobber, Elhokar, Renarin, Rlain, Leyten, Skar… They’ve all done, or been, or experienced things that left them feeling unworthy and inadequate. To be here, on this plateau, drawing in Stormlight, healing, being accepted, and especially seeing the hope of being chosen by a spren to become a Knight Radiant—I think that’s the proof of redemption they long for.
L: Though for some of them—mainly Kal and Teft, I think—that redemption is going to be more hard-fought for than for others.
A: True. I’m still trying to figure out if it applies to Lopen, and if so, how. But a number of them will not have the difficulty of those two, and I think I might add Rock to the list. He’s got a lot of other issues to deal with—but we’ll talk more about that below.
“Bridge Four is not Windrunners. … It is us,” Lunamor said. “It is me, it is them, it is you.” He nodded toward Dabbid. “That one, he will never hold spear again. He will not fly, but he is Bridge Four. I am forbidden to fight, but I am Bridge Four. And you, you might have fancy title and different powers.” He leaned forward. “But I know Bridge Four. And you, Renarin Kholin, are Bridge Four.”
L: I just… I can’t even with this quote. This sums up the fellowship of Bridge Four so beautifully for me. Bridge Four is family. They stand with one another, even when the going gets tough. Even when the people in the family don’t feel like they belong, or deserve inclusion.
A: ::sniff::
“Of course, nobody says I’m less of a man than my brother, and nobody points out that it sure would be nice for the succession if the sickly, strange younger brother were safely tucked away in a monastery.”
L: Poor Renarin. I always get a bit of a Thor/Loki vibe from these two, with the exception of course being that Renarin is no trickster. He’s just a genuinely kind-hearted good kid, and having to live up to the expectations imposed on him by his father and brother must be utterly exhausting.
A: One of the most difficult aspects of this is that neither Dalinar nor Adolin would consciously lay those expectations on Renarin—not these days, anyway. (Much of this damage was done by Young!Dalinar, of course, who … well, I won’t go there now.) But aside from Dalinar’s early contempt, there’s so much pressure on Renarin just from who Dalinar and Adolin are. They’re so perfectly Alethi, in all the ways he can’t be. (Yes, I know they aren’t perfect. Far from it. But from the outside, in the Alethi context, they look pretty close to it.)
L: Isn’t this so true of human nature, though? The expectations we hold ourselves to are often so much stronger than any that could be imposed upon us by others.
A: Oh, so, so true.
“I’m already the oddest one in this bunch.”
L: ::side-eyes Lopen::
“Oh,” Renarin said. “I don’t know if [Rlain] counts.”
“This thing is what everyone always tells him,” Lunamor said. “Over and over again.”
L: Poor, poor Rlain. This and the part from his POV made me so sad for him, but we’ll get into that in more detail when we get there.
Skar left with a spring to his step. Another man would have felt worse, but Skar was a teacher at heart.
L: We’ll see more of this later, but I love the fact that Skar is such a good person that he’d take joy in helping another to achieve something he wants so desperately.
A: That’s one of my favorite chapters, where it’s Skar’s turn to help everyone. I’m looking forward to that.
Places & Peoples
“What happened to your brother, Rock?”
“My two brothers are well, so far as I know.”
“And the third brother?” Kaladin said. “The one who died, moving you from fourth to third, and making you a cook instead of a soldier? Don’t deny it.”
“Is sad story,” Lunamor said. “And today is not day for sad stories.
A: Kaladin is assuming (likely based on the half-truths Rock told them in the earlier books) that Rock was fourth in line and is now third, making him a cook instead of a soldier. This is going to be proven categorically false near the end of the chapter…
They hadn’t anticipated the cruelty of Torol Sadeas, who had murdered Kef’ha without a proper duel, killed many of Lunamor’s family who resisted, and seized his property.
A: This… oh, I always hated Sadeas, but this is completely despicable. I want to bring him back to life just so I can kill him again.
“Lunamor, what happened? Your note was so terse. Kef’ha is dead, but what happened to you? Why so long without word?”
“What of Tifi and Sinaku’a?” she asked him.
“Dead,” he whispered. “They raised weapons in vengeance.”
She put her hand to her lips…. “Then you—”
A: Rock was the fourth son, but not the fourth of four. He was fourth of six… which is why he could claim that his two brothers are well—meaning his two younger brothers, and leaving out that not just one, but all three of his older brothers were killed when they came down from the Peaks. His wife’s response makes me believe that the theory is probably right: that Rock is now not merely the head of his family, but likely the nuatoma of his clan.
There’s just so much we don’t know about their culture, and we don’t get much clarification here—except for Rock’s personal situation, and even that is mostly inference.
Tight Butts and Coconuts
L: Also known as the “Rock and Lopen appreciation section.”
A: Woooot! I appreciate the Rock and the Lopen.
Lunamor—called Rock by his friends, on account of their thick, lowlander tongues being incapable of proper speech
L: Airsick lowlanders.
“How hard can it be to learn how to fly? Skyeels do it all the time, and they are ugly and stupid. Most bridgemen are only one of those things.”
L: Bless you, Lopen.
“Lopen!” Kaladin called. “You’re supposed to be helping the others, not showing off!”
L: I mean, he’s got a point. Lopen’s not being a very effective instructor, here.
A: Well, he does provide a certain… example of what not to do, right?
“If I am to become a delicate cloud upon the sky, I must first convince the ground that I am not abandoning her. Like a worried lover, sure, she must be comforted and reassured that I will return following my dramatic and regal ascent to the sky.”
L: I have no words for the sheer amazing that is this quote. And for these that follow:
“Don’t worry, dear one. The Lopen is vast enough to be possessed by many, many forces, both terrestrial and celestial! I must soar to the air, for if I were to remain only on the ground, surely my growing magnitude would cause the land to crack and break.”
* * *
“Ground,” Lopen said, “I will still love you. I’m not attracted to anyone the way I am to you.”
L: ::snort::
A: In this context I have to add one more quotation:
“Perhaps,” Lunamor noted, “when that one is away from too much toxic air, he will be less…”
“Lopen?”
“Though upon consideration, this thing would be sad.”
A: Indeed.
“Huio has changed this thing. I now have to either promote him or push him off side of plateau.”
“Promote him to what?”
“To airsick lowlander,” Lunamor said, “second class.”
Weighty Words
“It isn’t healthy to have a stone curdling in your stomach, still wet with moss.”
L: Well isn’t this a fascinating idiom? Sort of reminds me of a combination of “a rolling stone gathers no moss” and the concept of feeling like you have a stone in your stomach.
“The first step will be to speak the Ideal,” Kaladin said. “I suspect a few of you have already said it. But for the rest, if you wish to be a squire to the Windrunners, you will need to swear it.”
A: I wonder about this. Is it necessary to speak the Ideal to become a squire, or is he assuming this? And either way, Is he inadvertently tying them to the Windrunners, or just to the Knights Radiant as a whole? Obviously all Orders share the same first Ideal, so there’s that, but how much does “intent to be a Windrunner squire” shape their path forward?
Lunamor whispered the Ideal.
L: I find it interesting that he whispers it. Has he already said it, and just doesn’t want to interfere with the rest? Or is this the first time he’s sworn?
A: Personally, I think this is the first time, and he whispers because he doesn’t think it’s appropriate for him. After all, he’s supposed to be a cook, or his clan’s nuatoma, or possibly a slave—but not a Knight Radiant. Or even a squire. This conflict will stay with him through the end of the book, sadly.
“The Surges of Progression and Illumination. I’m not sure how to make the second one work though. Shallan has explained it seven times, but I can’t create even the slightest illusion. Something’s wrong.”
L: Is this because of his corruption, or because the Surges don’t work quite the same way for the two different Orders, I wonder?
A: That’s been the subject of a great deal of theorizing and argumentation. Some believe it’s because Glys is corrupted, and therefore Renarin has access to a different Surge. Some think the corruption damages the access somehow. Some think it’s just that Renarin isn’t ready for it yet. And… all the permutations in between and beyond! I have in the past argued that it’s just because the Surges don’t work the same way for Renarin and Shallan, whether because of personality differences or Order differences, but I’m not sure now. I don’t think we have enough information to do any more than guess.
A Scrupulous Study of Spren
“I’ve always wondered,” Dalinar said. “Are they made of fire themselves? It looks like they are, and yet what of emotion spren? Are angerspren then made of anger?” … “And what of gloryspren? Made of glory? What is glory? Could gloryspren appear around someone who is delusional, or perhaps very drunk—who only thinks they’ve accomplished something great, while everyone else is standing around mocking them?”
L: This is a very interesting question. Have we seen gloryspren rise up around Dalinar in some of his cruelest victories, when others are horrified by his actions? I remember seeing them around Gavilar, but not Dalinar.
A: Dalinar gets some gloryspren in that first flashback battle, which was kind of a nasty piece of work. Gavilar gets them when he’s delightedly telling his men to “Hail the Blackthorn!” the time that Dalinar beat Kalanor … and came this close to killing Gavilar. Dalinar draws a bunch of them when Adolin is born, when he repairs the temple in Thaylen City, and then they come in flocks and droves during the climax. So… near as I can tell from a quick search, Young!Dalinar only draws gloryspren during a battle that one time, and that happens when he takes down the brightlord, whose honor guard then breaks before the elites.
We’ve debated much over what “glory” actually means in this context, and I don’t think we’re any nearer a conclusion now than we were back in TWoK.
That one did have a sword. A miniature Shardblade.
L: I wonder if they’re just mimicking what they’ve seen of highspren in Shadesmar (but then, the living Blades wouldn’t appear as such over there…)
A: I wonder if their appearance is shaped by Dalinar’s voiced description of them, like their size was locked when Geranid wrote down her measurements of them.
L: Oh, that’s an excellent theory.
They were lesser gods, but still holy. He could see their true shapes beyond the streamers, a faint shadow of a larger creature at the bottom.
L: Well isn’t that interesting. Rock’s the only character I can remember that has mentioned being able to see this… can he see into Shadesmar, a little? If so, how?
A: It ties back to the Parsh blood, I think. Earlier we commented on his ability to hear the Rhythms, and here we have that Parsh ability to see into the Cognitive realm, to some degree.
L: Wait a second. Did I miss that somewhere? Parshendi can see into the Cognitive Realm?!
A: It was never stated outright in the text that I recall, but in WoR, Eshonai’s descriptions of various spren was always more than what the humans saw. I think there were further hints buried in their songs—they’re closer to the Cognitive realm than humans are. (I wonder what Lift sees of this sort of spren, with her Nightwatcher gifts.)
But where is his god? Lunamor could see all spren. Prince Renarin had bonded one, except Lunamor had never been able to spot it.
L: Hmmm. Is Glys playing coy, or does this have something to do with his corruption?
A: Yes. As in, I believe Glys is playing coy because of the corruption. He doesn’t want to be seen, because he wants to be a good Truthwatcher spren but knows Sja-anat has affected him.
L: Yeah, but Rock seems to be able to see the spren even when they don’t want to be seen. Like the honorspren later on, and Syl in book one. So either Glys is more powerful/better at hiding himself than all those other spren, or there’s something more going on here…
A: There’s always another secret.
Gods! Strong gods, like Sylphrena. Glowing a faint blue, they clustered around a tall spren woman, who had long hair streaming behind her. She had taken the shape of a person, human sized, and wore an elegant gown. The others swirled about in the air, though their focus was obviously the practicing bridgemen and hopefuls.
L: Highspren scouting party!
“I can barely remember a voice… her voice, Phendorana, reprimanding me. I got in so much trouble for searching out Kaladin. Yet here they are! They won’t speak to me. I think they assume that if they do, they’d have to admit to me that they were wrong.”
L: I’m so curious about the social hierarchy of the honorspren. Is Phendorana some sort of Queen or something?
A: I wish I knew. I had hoped to see her again in Shadesmar, but we didn’t (so far as we know). I wonder if she’ll show up again. It’d be kind of a hoot if Lyn bonded her, now wouldn’t it? ;)
L: That would be completely weird. To be honest I’d love to see Rock bond her—he already shows the spren such deference, it would make sense that this regal one would be attracted to that…
Quality Quotations
“Today we will not need to scrub the walls, and the life will be as white as a sun at night!”
Evi’s native idioms didn’t always translate well into Alethi.
L: This one’s really cool. It almost reminds me a little of Scadrial, with the ash falling all the time—the first part of this would make total sense there, scrubbing the walls to be white… but a sun at NIGHT? Maybe she means… a star? This is just baffling.
Gavilar waited in the sitting room, dressed in one of those new suits with the stiff jacket and buttons up the sides of the chest.
A: Even before he was born, Adolin was getting an example of fashionability!
a playful windspren whipped at the smoke, making it blow across him no matter where he stood.
A: It all makes sense now.
Numuhukumakiaki’aialunamor
L: Say that ten times fast. (Every time his full name is shown I just have to stare at it in amazement… because I, clearly, am an airsick lowlander.)
Beautiful lights and fallen stars
L: This ranks up there with Dresden’s “Stars and Stones” as one of my favorite phrases. And another one:
Blessed gods of sea and stone.
* * *
“You’re not a king, Lopen,” Drehy said. “We’ve been over this.”
“Of course I am not. I am a former king. You are obviously one of the stupid ones I mentioned earlier.”
A: Lol. (Also, have we addressed this before?)
“Finding a smile on your face, Kaladin Stormblessed, is like finding lost sphere in your soup. Surprising, yes, but very nice too.
A: ::snickers::
It was made of tough wood, Bridge Four was.
L: Continuing the metaphor/symbolism/whatever.
“When you say these things, you are almost not bitter!” Lunamor said. “Ha! Much practice must have been required.”
“A lifetime.”
A: *sigh* And last one, I promise:
Lopen shoved in close and made the Bridge Four salute. It seemed to mean something special, coming from him. Two arms. One of the first times Lopen had been able to make the salute.
Phew! If you’re still with us, thanks for sticking it out! This was certainly a long one, but there was a lot worthy of discussion in these chapters. Chapter 38’s pretty long, so next week we’ll be tackling it by its lonesome. As always, please join us for respectful debate, discussion, and theorizing in the comments!
Alice is wiped out after a rather phenomenal “ladies night out” for Phantom of the Opera. She has very few brain cells left with which to craft a witty bio this week. Good thing she did most of the above writing before going out.
Lyndsey is heading out later today for a photoshoot in Boston for her Star Lord cosplay. Check out her Facebook account for amusing photos of cosplay on mass transit…
The hints at Rock’s backstory are infuriating. I want more! Maybe we can trick Sanderson into doing a Rock novella like he did for Lift while book 4 is being edited.
@1, I shall prepare the cookie bribes.
Agree on every bit of this article. The first hint of genuine love between Dalinar and Evi (though not perfect, and certainly not healthy), Bridge 4 maturing and growing as a whole, and hints of Renarin’s deep feelings of inadequacy. All amazing scenes!
Evi’s “white as the Sun at night” is the moon, it’s just struck me.
Sanderson is very good at mixing hope with despair. It’s a common trope to have things be at their darkest just before the dawn, but Sanderson also manages to opposite; he gives us scenes of genuine happiness and love before disaster strikes.
I think that real darkness, as opposed to “grimdark”, requires that we know and care about the characters. If a story is all just bad stuff happening to people we don’t care about, then it’s easy to become indifferent. But by investing us in characters, and giving them some measure of success and happiness, a skilled author makes us frightened and upset by what we know is coming.
I should think before I hit post but here we are. It also strikes me that “White as the sky at night” is a colour-based idiom which is fairly rare for Roshar, but not entirely unknown on a significant other world in the Cosmere, and a couple of important characters from that world have travelled between the two.
It’s not possible for the principles not to interact with each other–how could, say, Honor and Odium (hatred) not have some interactions? Do they mean the Shards should not interfere, or the Vessels of those Shards should not consciously interfere?
As a former science teacher I wonder about the shades of meaning of the words here. “Interfere” in the way that waves of different wavelengths interfere, maybe?
One cool thing that Chapter 37 emphasizes: Bridge Four is not Kaladin and his followers. He started it but it works because of him, and Skar, and Lopen, and Lunamor, and Sigzil.
On Renarin and Illumination: IIRC both Windrunners and Skybreakers gain their second Surge with their Third Oath. Maybe Renarin has only sworn two oaths as of this book? But then, would Glys be able to manifest as a Shardblade, which also comes with the Third Oath?
Didn’t Phendorana bond Teft?
@5 dptullos
That is a very good point, and I think you put perfectly why grimdark books like The Blade Itself never sat well with me. Everyone is horrible. The world is horrible. Horrible things happen to horrible people in the horrible world. The end. Always leaves a sour taste in my mouth.
@7 Carl
I think, if I recall correctly (whether it is a theory or fact I have to dig to find out), but that it is that the Shards agreed to leave each other alone. They were supposed to each find their own little corner of the galaxy, and leave each other alone. Now there is the WoB that speak of how all preservation in the galaxy is of preservation, but preservation first has to realize that power is of itself to claim it and its all stuff far over my own head. Perhaps the vessels did not realize this themselves, and made the pact in error. But I believe the pact was meant to keep the vessels from being around each other to prevent potentially reuniting the shards. As I said, how much of that are theories I read, vs factually confirmed, I will need to do some digging as it is based on my recollection.
Hmmm, regarding Renarin my first instinct was like yours that he simply did not progress far enough to use it, but you make an excellent point about the shardblade. Then again, Shallan has a shardblade, and can soulcast, but has difficulty even soulcasting a stick. So it could just be Renarin is not practiced enough in it and it is already difficult for him as it is not his orders primary surge.
As to Phendorana, I feel you are right but I cannot recall what is making me think that. Must do more digging! lol
I think we have seen both of Renarin’s surges,
Regrowth and the future sight thingy.
I thought Renarin’s second surge was corrupted into that stained-glass seer effect. He just has no control over it (yet).
Edit: What @9 telema said!
@7
@8
About the Shards, they have several different modes of consciousness, probably as a result of existing in all three Realms at once. You can see a bit of this in Vin’s POV in HoA, where she talks about how her power and awareness are spread over all Scadriel, but she still has a specific place where her attention is focused. So there is Honor-aligned Investiture all throughout the Cosmere, but Honor’s nexus, his awareness and the portion of his powers he can deliberately shape, is on Roshar.
@9 telema and @10 nightheron
That’s the thing, the jury is still out. So far the theories ( I think it was mentioned in the article) are either Renarin isn’t trained enough yet, or it is because the surge works differently for Truthwatchers, or because it is corrupted lightweaving, or because it is corrupted it works differently (the future sight). So far we do not conclusively know.
@11 Aeshdan
So here is the WoB I was referring to. A lot of people are still trying to make sense of it. Have fun lol :)
https://wob.coppermind.net/events/315-general-reddit-2018/#e9385
@8 scath
It’s a theory, but basically a fact since it’s based on this letter. The other lines in the letter make it clear that Endowment thinks that they deserved what they (Aona/Skai) got for “settling in one location”. And it’s also clear that Endowment isn’t afraid of Odium, just that Hoid doesn’t get a say because he refused the opportunity to ascend.
Other comments
– Cultivation is a woman. I think there’s a WOB on that.
– I didn’t catch that Teft bonded Phendorana, but she was the one who encouraged him to say the words, so it has to be her, right? [corrected below, no name is given for his spren] Spren don’t really interact with other people if those people already have spren, as far as I can tell.
– I really don’t want Rock to die. If it’s another massacre like Kelsier’s crew, i’m going to hate everyone.
“Like a blackness from the old stories.” We know Roshar is the fourth world the Iri have been on. We know Nalthis is one of the other three, based on their use of colour in their expressions. This reference to blackness feels like references to the deepness on Scadrial, in the old religous paintings of what the Lord Ruler ‘Defeated’
Is this possible?
@@@@@ 14 – for me, I always read “a blackness from the old stories” as either a reference to Nightblood, since the Iri are most likely descendants of Nalthians, or at the very least influenced by those descendants, OR its a relic of another Nalthian idiom, such as “like white on black” or some such.
I’m not sure how well the timelines match up for this to be a reference to Scadrial, but I’m not well-versed enough to rule it out myself – I like it, though; it would be a nice tie-in we haven’t seen yet.
Gavilar’s inatthention to Navani talking about fabrial science is not just a sad indication of the state of their relationship, but also rather short-sighted, given all the military and just plain useful applications it eventually produces, some of them as a result of her ideas or under her auspices! In fact, that would be about when spanreeds were invented or not long afterwards, right? This must have been a revolution!
And speaking of Rock – how does inheritance and succession work on the Peaks? If he is a fourth brother who has almost grown children of his own, isn’t it likely that his 3 older brothers would have had some also? I mean, it is clear that he is now a nuatoma, so is it like a convoluted system that existed in Kiev Rus, where brothers inherited before sons? And why does he consider the addition of the scouts to the squire hopeful, when his own wife clearly is a trained archer?
@13 Keyblazing
Hmmmm, what you said about Phendorana makes me wonder. We know Rock can see them because he has Parsh ancestry, but do members of the same order automatically see each others spren? I do not recall any instance to confirm or deny this. When the other bridgemen see Syl, it is because she allows them to. Shallan’s Cryptic Pattern has trouble hiding itself so that wouldn’t give any insight. The multiple truthwatchers have not been around each other to compare. So I guess all we can do is wait and see? (Though to clarify, I am in agreement with you. I believe that tidbit is a good indicator that leans towards her being Teft’s spren)
@16 Isilel
The best I can guess at this point with what little we know (so total conjecture on my part), is it works like nobility with multiple children. The first inherits, the second goes to the military, the third the clergy and so on. I think Rock is slightly unique in this situation, as his eldest brother is actually the ruler, but that does beg the question as to what happened to the brother’s children. Unless they came with when they went down the mountain, and died with their parents, which would again result in Rock being the king. Many a mystery with that one indeed.
@17 scath
I was wrong about it being Phendorana encouraging him. No exact name for his spren is given.
But yes, we haven’t seen spren to spren interaction among the known Radiants in the Physical world.
Alice, I think the problem with the Peaks are in the Physical Realm is an Unmade. Remember, Rock’s family left the Peaks before the first Everstorm (or at least that was my impression). Odium’s forces may have eventually settled in the Peaks near the Shardpool (as we see later in the Cognitive Realm). But at this point, I think the only trouble is a presence of a Unmade.
Thanks for reading my musings.
AndrewHB
aka the musespren
I forget, is this the chapter with the line slipped in sideways about Lopen and the spren he bonded? Or was it in Teft’s first chapter?
For those who missed it, during one of these bridge four training sequences, the POV notes that Lopen keeps looking under rocks and behind trees for something (or someone, DUN DUN DUUUUN) and is just written off as Lopen being weird.
@20 Kefka
storms, do you mean it is hinting at Lopen having bonded his spren and playing hide and seek with it already? If that is the case, mind blown and actually goes back to what Keyblazing and I were talking about. If that was Lopen’s bound spren, and everyone saw him as just acting weird that would mean they couldn’t see it. Which would mean just because you are of the same order as another radiant, does not mean you can see their spren!
[please forgive/correct any errors in the following – I am only familiar enough with the science to be dangerous]
I’m wondering if this could be taken as a physical, rather than figurative, agreement. I checked a dictionary and found it defined as “the combination of two or more electromagnetic waveforms to form a resultant wave in which the displacement is either reinforced or canceled.” Reinforcing a complementary influence (say Devotion and Dominion) might make them strong enough to directly threaten other Shards (if the power of each individually is approximately equal), or influence whatever that Shard may be working on (indirect effect). Similarly, having opposite shards in the same area (such as Ruin and Preservation) could lead to a power vacuum or a recombination (opposites attract, and can result in Harmony).
This would also explain why the Pact would have the Shards separate as far as possible from each other, since, if shards work like waves, the influence of each probably diminishes over distance.
We still have no good idea why Evi and her brother left/had to leave Iri. I hadn’t picked up that they were from Nalthis until I read it here. So they could be running from world hoppers even.
As for Grimdark, not my cuppa. I agree that in order to care “what” happens to a character you need to care about the character. I need to have a a little hope. I can’t keep reading when an entire book is just bad people doing bad things and coming to a bad end.
@23 goddessimho
I believe regarding being from Nalthis for Evi and Toh was not in reference to them directly. I believe it is like how Rock is not directly Parsh, but a distant ancestor was. So the theory is that Iri or Rirans (Brandon has hinted at a difference between the people), had a mass migration to Roshar at some point in their history. Evi and Toh are descendants of that migration. However, that still does not preclude a worldhopper taking interest in their people due to that past migration and be chasing Evi and Toh for some reason. So I wasn’t writing that to disagree or disprove your thoughts, just adding more information.
WoB regarding Evi being a native Rosharan
https://wob.coppermind.net/events/312-orem-signing/#e8901
edit: if you already knew that and I misread your post, I apologize in advance!
You guys – todays re-read was amazing. Life has thrown some curveballs that hasn’t always been the nice ones and today some steps were made to change all that and this re-read was exactly what I needed today. To quote you guys:
“These both seem fairly obvious. There is a lot of healing going on here, both physically and emotionally. Not for everyone, but enough to make it a strong theme.”
Thanks for being awesome and continue to kickass – it means a lot!
Aren’t the Fused attacking the Horneater perpendicularity in Shadesmar at the end of the book?
Shallan’s order is about truth and lies, so she uses Illumination for illusions. Truthwatchers see things, which also has to do with light.
Rock can see spren, but Glys can still hide.
I assumed the blackness is an Unmade, maybe the Midnight Mother.
@20 You might be onto something. I think Lopen must have been bonded his spren prior to the end of WOR. We know that Kaladin has to be close by for the Squires to be able to use stormlight. But the first time we see Lopen suck in stormlight and start regrowing his arm, Kaladin isn’t around.
I agree with several above commenters- the white and black references are somehow (somewhen? Is that even a word) connected to Nalthis. But not in a recent history. And knowing how many worldhoppers there are on Roshar, it’s probably got some Scadrian influence as well.
Rock’s story and whatever is happening in the Peaks is what I hope we get in book 4. As interesting as the Shin are, Rock’s story is much closer to my heart and I just want to know how it works out! It had better not be with untimely death though; Roshar needs good guys to be kings.
Lopen’s jokes about being big enough to love both sky and ground are hilarious. But I hope they aren’t foreshadowing about him being a Shard sometime in the future; the havoc that could cause for the Cosmere would be… epic.
PS, I think someone snuck into my house and started cutting onions. Because I don’t cry this much on third reads.
“Airsick lowlander…second class,” had me literally LOLing. Probably one of my very favorite little moments in the book.
@13. Keyblazing If you read the annotations for Mistborn, Sanderson talks about how his cast of characters had gotten out of control, and some of the deaths we saw were in some part associated with his attempt to get the cast back under control. I felt that some of them were handled badly. From his later works, he seems to have figured out this aspect to his writing, and I don’t imagine we’ll see a repeat, unless the story seems to call for it. I have a hope and a feeling that we’ll be seeing Rock for many volumes to come.
@@@@@27. toothlessjoe Storms! I totally forgot that. The Lopen had been trying to breathe stormlight for probably weeks, and it was only when he was at home, with Elhokar being taken care of by his mother (one of my very favorite moments in the series), that it works. That probably means he was never a squire at all, but always a potential Knight on his own.
It may not seem that important of a difference, but with all the discussion about how “broken” someone needs to be to form a bond, this makes the Lopen either a wildly more broken character than we have previously seen, or he is one of the rare examples of being “open” without being so broken (I tend toward the latter theory myself).
@27: Well storm me! I remember people were asking about how the timeline worked out for Lopen to be regrowing his arm at that particular point. Some people thought it was just a plothole. But if that was foreshadowing for Lopen becoming a KR… I tip my hat to Brandon! And to you, for catching it.
I appreciate getting the background story on Renarin as this has been missing in the past. I’ll however admit, after reading this chapter and not those who follow, my initial reaction was to be angry at Renarin. I am aware I am supposed to pity him, but I got angry instead. Hearing everyone has been praising his intellect since he was a toddler, everyone has been encouraging him to pursue a scholarship somehow turns out to be the reason why he is broken (my assumption at the time, I hadn’t read the rest of the book yet) truly made me angry. Everyone praises you and that’s not enough? You need to be praised for something else? Can’t you just be happy with the gifts you do have and work on them instead of focusing on something no one ever demanded you to accomplish?
Of course, reading the rest of the book, I understood why it was so important for Renarin to be a soldier (to be like Adolin, go to the warcamps and be noticed by his father), but at the time, after reading just this one chapter, I was angry.
This being said, I so loved Rock putting Renarin back to his place and gently telling him to stop complaining and to start working on his strengths. Who cares if others were right to encourage you to pursue a scholarship? Why not play out the strengths you do have? Why always focus on what you do not have? And, you think you don’t belong, you want to whine on how you don’t belong, well here’s a guy here no one pays any attention to. Even you.
I loved this conversation. I loved it because Rock was right to say it. I loved it because Renarin needed to hear it and no one in his family was ever going to say it to him. I loved it because I doubt Renarin would have listened to anyone else and if Rock becomes a Radiant, as we are all 100% convinced will happen, I hope it won’t be a Windrunner… Or maybe this was an odd form of protecting, whichever, I loved reading Rock taking the time to hear out other people’s grievances and giving them sound advise.
@32 Gepeto
All that “praise” has a nasty subtext that you’re missing. Lighteyed men of Renarin’s rank are expected to be warriors, not scholars. Renarin was incapable of fighting, so all the praise of his scholarship was a polite way of suggesting that he should join the ardents, where he wouldn’t embarrass his family by reminding everyone that the Blackthorn’s youngest was a “cripple”. Alethi society is very ableist.
Alethi society emphasizes strength in battle and glory through conquest. Men who can’t be warriors are automatically second-class; scholarship may be an honorable and prestigious approach for women and ardents, but real Alethi men are expected to fight for status. Adolin earns admiration and respect as an expert duelist, while Renarin gets pity and courtesy for his father’s sake.
Rock is right to remind Renarin that he has to play the hand he’s dealt and that he shouldn’t let society’s opinions control what he does. That doesn’t mean that Renarin isn’t right to be bitter about growing up in a civilization that looks scornfully on scholarship in lighteyed men and tries to hammer everyone into the same mold.
Given the Glys sis described as rising from Renarin’s back, I think he’s hiding the same way Timbre, is, by being INSIDE Renarin’s body most of the time.
As for Phendorana, it’s implied she bonded Teft.
I think Evi’s people MIGHT be later immigrants from Nalthis, since that was a color idiom, and so far, no one but people of Nalthis have used such, at least on Roshar.
defiant @25 – That is absolutely the best compliment ever – that we made your day better in some way. Hang in there, and here’s to more healing!
dptullos @33 – I think you meant Renarin in the first paragraph. No big, but it really threw me for a second. That said, I think you have a major point there. Sure, Renarin was praised for being “smart” – but in Alethkar, that’s code for “shut up and go try to do something useful in the ardentia.” Being smart is only truly valued in this culture – at least at the higher dahns – if you’re smart at strategy & tactics, and can match your “smart” with your “fight”.
Re: Phendorana, I’ve never seen anything I recognized as a hint that she was the one who bonded with Teft. We’ll have to watch for that, but I’m not buying it yet. :D
@33: As I said, my post was referring to the emotions I felt when I read the chapter, the first time, without knowing all of the details of Renarin’s past life. I thought it was an interesting perspective to share and I definitely agree it isn’t a politically correct one nor is it the right way to feel. I unfortunately cannot help how I reacted to this passage.
My train of thoughts, at the time, were half of Renarin’s jest came from his own impressions more than what people really told him. The part where he mentions it would be easier for the succession if he weren’t around made no sense to me. Adolin is Dalinar’s indisputable heir: what succession issue was he truly foreseeing? It felt like Renarin was victimizing himself by adding on issues which never existed. My feelings were his family genuinely wanted him to be happy and to do something he’d be good at. They genuinely encouraged him to pursue a path which was well suited to his talents and were all very proud of him. After all, every single character we had met, at that point in time, had been extremely supportive and caring towards Renarin. What else was I supposed to think? Hence, my thoughts were Renarin was being sour over not much… or so I felt when I read this chapter. It made me love Rock for daring telling some truths to Renarin instead of coddling him infinitely thus encouraging him to lock himself into the same state of miserableness.
Of course, a few chapters later I realized the reality was a tad different than what I initially thought. Dalinar ignoring the existence of his second son was a glaring read and definitely something I did not expect. I wrote my commentaries, prior to OB, on how unhealthy I felt the Dalinar/Adolin relationship was, how it was built in expectations and its foundation was wrong: readers so hated it when I went down this road, but I stick to it. Hence, when OB actually proved me right, I was pleased, but not overly surprised. Renarin however…. I did not predict that. Nothing, within the narrative of WoK/WoR, had allowed me to conclude Dalinar had ever been anything else but a highly supportive and kind father to Renarin. Many clues had allowed me to conclude Dalinar was not as great of a father to Adolin as it initially seemed, but Renarin?
Nope. Nothing. So he got on my nerves early on with his behavior. And in this chapter, I was angry at him.
I would however argue where in the narrative is it said Adolin actually has the respect and the admiration of his peers? He was constantly scorned on in WoR and in OB he mentioned how Ialai never bothered to treat him like an adult despite his 23 years of age. So while Adolin has always been accomplished within field Alethi society praises men on, I never felt Adolin was particularly praised no admired. Granted, Renarin is being pitied on though I wished he’d show more teeth. He can’t spend a lifetime relying on everyone to speak up for him and to defend him: someday, he’s going to have to stand up for himself.
Renarin’s scorn is more easily understood when we read the circumstances of his childhood, spent away from his father, his brother and often his mother, in Kholinar. Why didn’t grow up jealous of Adolin is beyond me, but it appears to be the case.
I needed to read how awful Dalinar had been to Renarin to start feeling more sympathetic towards his character. Or course, other readers never needed those insights, but being me, I needed them. So I was glad OB provided them. This chapter was a really good one.
On the side note, I did wonder why Evi seemed to love Dalinar? Was she this resigned, this determined to make it work to fake love? Is it possible she really genuinely loved him? This baffled me throughout the book.
@36: If being smart is so unimportant within the Alethi society, then how come Adolin feels so diminished intellectually? How come Sadeas was praised for his smart cunning? I didn’t feel it was that unimportant…
@36 Wetlandernw
Thanks for pointing that out! I did mean Renarin, and I fixed it.
@37 Gepeto
You sometimes tend to go to extremes, viewing things in absolute terms rather than looking for nuance.
Even if Renarin’s family supports him, he knows that the rest of Alethi society looks down on weaklings who can’t even fight. The people who love Renarin support him for the right reasons; plenty of other people praise his academic success while thinking “the ardentia is the best place for a useless cripple”. Alethi society is not nice to the disabled.
Renarin is right to be bitter; Rock is right to point out that bitterness doesn’t solve anything and that you have to do what you can with the skills you have. This isn’t a contest where only one person can have valid points.
Adolin is a rock star. He’s an accomplished soldier and duelist, and Alethi society admires those skills above all others. His lack of popularity in WoR was a result of his peers being angry about his father’s political decisions, not personal disrespect for Adolin.
Sadeas was an accomplished warrior with practical intelligence in the fields of politics and war, while Renarin has the kind of book learning which is more typical of women and ardents. The Alethi respect warrior-politicians, soldiers who are at home on the battlefield or in the council chamber. They don’t have much regard for lighteyed men who sit around with their noses in a book.
@38: Oh well I have tried nuance before and it didn’t work so well. There are topics where I tried to bring in nuance, but was told the narrative was spot clear on it and my nuance was unwelcome. So maybe this time around it is I who is lacking nuance ;-)
So, prior to the meeting of scholars, we never once saw anyone be mean, condescending or disrespectful towards Renarin. Well, we saw Sadeas, but Sadeas was mean to everyone, not just Renarin. His jest also attacked Adolin, so I did not feel Renarin was being singled out.
So while yes, we are told Alethi society praises soldiers above all, we weren’t really reading into the narrative. Highprinces Sebrarial and Roion was notorious for being poor soldiers and yet they had enough support to remain Highprince (Brandon once said being Highprince only meant enough people were willing to call you Highprince).
We see no one, no one criticize Renarin on being a cripple nor do we see him navigate through any particular difficulties because of it. All we see is him wanting to be a soldier. Yes, there is this talk of being a soldier being the higher calling, but without any additional context, without seeing Renarin be the prey to others, it can be difficult to see his predicament as a real hindrance. Granted, others are able to see it, but I couldn’t.
And yes, the narrative does imply Adolin is supposed to be a Rock Star, but I never read the other characters reacting to him as if he were. No once did other characters seems to respect nor admire him. Many times in the narrative, Kaladin’s effect on people is mentioned, how he draws them to him, how the population is viewing him as a hero. This is entirely plausible and well-referenced, so I have no trouble believing it. Kaladin is a hero. The narrative tells me he is a hero. The other characters reaction to him indicate me they think of him as a hero. All consistent. However when the same narrative tells me Adolin is a Rock Star without showing me people treat him as if he really were, then my reaction is different. Is this an extreme or is this actual nuance?
The same goes for Renarin. As long as all character we had met were treating Renarin with respect and seemed to genuinely like him, then talk of him being bullied or thought badly of didn’t stick. This perhaps was me lacking nuance on this particular topic.
Storms, I wish we had gotten more Bridge Four in this book. Makes me nostalgic for the previous books.
Lunamor is the best. Except when Lift is the best. Lunamor is probably better at preparing food, but we never learn which of them proved better at eating food in the briefly-mentioned rivalry at that gathering. I would’ve bet my spheres on Lift.
Flying, healing the unhealable in other people, healing the unhealable in yourself…some of these characters can do things countless people in our world badly wish we could do. I wish I or someone could heal my incurable vision impairment, though as something I was born with that has profoundly shaped who I am, I don’t know if it would count as “brokenness.”
“These are wise words,” Lunamor said.. He wasn’t sure exactly why, yet. He would have to ponder them. Heh. I think I know the feeling.
“We will walk no more in coming days. This is the end.” What does he mean here, exactly? Sorry. I’ve forgotten what Rock, and Bridge Four, do following this scene.
I think Lopen deserves gloryspren for his performance here. Too bad he’s a soldier trying to fly, not officially a comedian whose response to being unable to fly (or move) would be a great achievement in itself.
@17: I was going to say that the designated careers of Horneater siblings reminded me of Robin Hobb’s Soldier Son Trilogy, where sufficiently wealthy sons are required to be, in birth order: heir, soldier, priest, scholar, craftsman. Or maybe craftsman is fourth and scholar fifth. Either way, it says something about the priorities of the un-admirable culture therein, and must stink for people whose inborn personalities and desires are unsuited to their roles. But from your comment, it sounds like this is/was a thing in our world, too.
@AeronaGreenjoy As a first son, I think I could deal with “heir,” but my two siblings are definitely unsuited for “soldier” and “priest.” Then again, I’m very confident that we wouldn’t meet the wealth threshold for it to matter so it’s a moot point.
@Gepeto I think your explaining how you felt in the moment was a great addition to the discussion. I personally felt very connected with his complaints because of my own history, but it’s great getting a different perspective. Plus the explanation of how future information shifted your view after the fact was interesting.
@26 birgit
I do not think we know for sure when the fused start hanging out at the Horneater peaks. By the time it is directly mentioned in Shadesmar, they have already established a foothold there. So it could be as some suggest that they had been planning their attack as early as this chapter. The Heart of the Revel had been in Kholinar for quite some time influencing the city covertly before it became so overt later on in Oathbringer, so I could see the same occurring at the Horneater peaks.
Personally, and I do not have much to back it up other than it is my own personal interpretation, is that truthwatchers would use illumination for remote viewing at a distance. That Renarin is unique due to glys being corrupted, so Renarin can see in the future. The truthwatcher mentioned in the gemstone archive later discovered in the book I feel was not seeing the future. I think he or she based on the information provided figured certain events would transpire but concerned about the consequences kept things quiet. I think it is a red herring to cause us to think there has been corrupted truthwatchers in the past, or that truthwatchers on whole can see the future. I think we also saw a use of weaponized illumination unique to Renarin in particular when he confronted the thunderclast. I can’t wait to learn more about that strong, loving, and intelligent young man.
I agree with others, I think Glys was hiding within Renarin. Some people have theorized that means that Renarin has developed a gem heart like a parshendi so Glys can hide in it. I am not sure if I am quite sold on that idea, but it is an interesting one.
@27 toothlessjoe
Excellent point
@28 Joyspren
I agree on all points :)
@36 Wetlandernw
Regarding Phendorana, so out of curiosity I re-read this scene, as well as checked all the scenes where Teft’s spren appears in a physical form. Unfortunately there are no defining physical features described for Phendorana other than the same standard ones for Syl. The only link that can be made, and it is very tenuous is that Phendorana is the only specific female spren mentioned, and Teft’s spren is also female. So it is more of a Chekov’s Gun that why specifically bring her up and show her if there wasn’t any intention of showing her again but it isn’t anything clear. Personally I do think he bonded her, but got nothing concrete at this time to back it up.
@40 AeronaGreenjoy
The big contest I would love to see between Lift and Rock is drinking. I wonder if her converting the alcohol to stormlight would prevent her from getting intoxicated. In which case no matter how many cups Rock can down, she will still win. Personally I think it would be hilarious to see a girl barely half Rock’s size drink him under the table lol.
Well regarding what can be healed by stormlight, it wouldn’t be if it was counted as “brokenness”. It would be more of whether or not you see your vision impairment as part of who you are. Personally I think if you use glasses or contacts, and thereby are used to seeing clearly, then you would see yourself as having clear vision, and the stormlight would heal your damaged eyes to match that. But it would ultimately be up to you and how you see yourself.
Yeah, I saw that happen in the Soldier Son Trilogy (personally couldn’t make it past the first book, but that’s just my own taste), as well as in Warbreaker, and other novels. So I did a little digging regarding world history, and some interesting tidbits came up. Hopefully I can write it well. So primogeniture states that the first born son inherits the parent’s entire estate. In absence of any children, brothers then succeed to the inheritance by seniority of age. So my best guest as I said before, is either neither of Rock’s elder siblings had kids, or they came with, and also died which is why it now falls to Rock.
Now as to each subsequent child’s responsibility. It was a real thing and it was for the landed gentry. It was not a requirement but they were urged to seek professions in state service. It ended up becoming the pattern as result where the eldest son would inherit the estate and enter politics, the second son would join the army, the third son enter the law, and the fourth son would join the church. Now my assumption is if the eldest died without an heir, then the second son would leave their commission in the army and take over the lands. The third son would remain in the law, and the fourth son would remain in the church. If however the first and second son had passed, then the third son would leave the law to take over the lands, and the fourth would remain in the church. If the first three passed, the fourth would leave the church and take over the lands. I do not believe that if the first son passed, that would mean all the sons would have to shift occupations. So in Rock’s case, since all his elder siblings passed, he would then inherit, and any of his younger siblings would remain at whatever they were. Rock’s children would then follow the pattern where his eldest male would then inherit and his other children if they had been old enough to enter any of the required jobs, would maintain those jobs. They would not be required to shift or change occupation. I do not recall specifically what each member of the family does, and I am not sure if it is ever gone into in any detail yet.
@41 soursavior
I would hazard that if that was the case, your other siblings would have been training for it since childhood and might be more amenable by that point though there has been many examples of officers in the military that had no reason to hold such office other than by accident of birth, and many a tragedy has befallen because of it. So hopefully there is more to the Horneater system than it appears. Perhaps it involves bonding a spren that would increase a certain trait much like the parshendi do with their forms. It would also explain Rock’s un-natural strength.
But how would the Horneaters classify me? I’m my father’s second son, but my mother’s first. (My dad divorced and remarried.) I guess the question is, are they patrilineal to the point that birth order depends only on the father?
@43 Carl
If it is anything like the world history I derived my research from, it should be patrilineal. So you would still be considered a second son. Unless of course your father decides to disown your elder brother, in favor of you and legitimize the marriage with your mother over his prior. If we are speaking purely regarding the historical function, and not your own personal life.
Alice & Lyndsey, thank you for an amazing re-read! Such great chapters, and your comments have stirred waaaaay more thoughts for me than usual. Here are my ideas, with full admission that I’m alomst always wrong about anything I ponder in Brandon’s books…
Re: Vedel – Alice, by “Evi’s pregnancy,” are you referring to our theory that Adolin – then in the womb – will someday become an Edgedancer?
Re: Rock’s mother’s song – Could these be the same songs as Eshonai & Venli’s mother sang and taught? So that maybe the Horneaters have preserved knowledge that the Parsh/Listeners have lost? It’s a bit like the Irish in the Middle Ages in Europe – preserving as best they could the great works of Greco-roman culture.
Re: Evi – I wonder if she didn’t have something like what we’d call “the second sight” or a “prophetic gifting,” that somehow (maybe because she followed Cultivation) she could see what Dalinar would grow into. Then again, sometimes love for unlikely targets just grows in your heart, like a wild plant that takes hold and you can’t really control it. Evi had to know that her husband was in love with another woman and she endured years of awful pain over it; in addition (and I am NOT defending Dalinar here, just imagining what Evi might have felt), knowing how deeply Dalinar loved Navani and knowing that he had stepped aside in favor of the brother he also loved, and watching him choose repeatedly to turn aside from his feelings for Navani and honor her marriage vows to Gavilar — that’s at least an honorable thing; it would still hurt her, but she might also have felt a bittersweet respect for his character. Or maybe not – I’m just conjecturing. Human hearts are complex things. As an aside, I actually know a couple who have an arranged marriage (just by their parents, not political), and their love is a joy to behold. So although it seems unusual to us, and can turn out badly sometimes, other times it’s really OK.
Re: “a blackness from the old stories” – Perhaps a reference to the Unmade?
Re: whether younger Dalinar had been so broken – Thinking back to WoR chapter 89, “The Four,” when Dalinar had that vision of his youth, the answer seems to be that he was not always the monster he was to become – perhaps Neragoul had previously focused on someone else, and turned to Dalinar when he was in his teens?
Re: “And so it begins.” – Lyndsey, was that a Babylon 5 reference? (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3qYbVQu7YAQ) I see that Alice picked it up. ;-)
Re: Rock’s “lies” – I took this to mean that he was glad Bridge Four couldn’t hear the way he was minimizing his struggles when telling his dear wife about the state of things. I felt that he planned to tell her as much as good conscience would allow later, in private. I don’t think he has actually liked to Bridge Four about anything – he just hasn’t told them the full truth about his royal heritage and at whose hands his party had suffered; he’s bearing that all himself. My take is that he’d see sharing those stories as gossip and/or whining, and that he didn’t want to have others take up his offenses (and try to avenge him) when he was trying to put it behind him and move on. Imagine what they’d have done to Sadeas, especially now that they’re squires!
Re: expectations – Lyndsey, I will be quoting you on Twitter – hope you don’t mind. Powerful stuff.
Re: Sadeas – What property exactly did Mr. Nasty-man steal from Rock’s family? Family crest/signet ring? Diadem/crown? Fabrials? Documents? I wonder if we’ll ever see any of it?
Re: Lopen teaching – Towards the end of OB he actually does help that wounded soldier in the infirmary, and does it in true “the Lopen” style. Love the Lopen!
Re: Renarin’s Surges – I think we’ve seen that Progression doesn’t work quite the same for Renarin as it does for Lift, and IIRC Jasnah has told Shallan that Transformation won’t work the same for their different Orders. So I think it’s both that Renarin hasn’t progressed far enough and that Shallan’s methods won’t work for him.
Re: seeing spren – In the battle near the end, doesn’t Jasnah think to herself that she can constantly see into the Cognitive? or that she exists partly there, not fully in the Physical now? And also Wyndle tells Lift that she has some kind of oddity with the Cognitive. I think we’ll read much more about this going forward.
Re: Syl, “admit they were wrong” – Just like the Stone Shamans will have to admit to Szeth that they were wrong…
Re: “a sun at night” – Isn’t Evi from one of those peoples that have legends of “Lands,” since Iri and Rira were combined in the Silver Kingdoms? And isn’t the theory that one of the Lands in their past was Taldain, where the sun would indeed be bright at night on Dayside?
Re: “Numuhuku…” – When you say it aloud, this name has the same rhythm as the names of the Entwives in TLotR.
@25 defiant – I had a rough week too & this was just what I needed. Hoping for better days ahead for each of us!
@27 toothlessjoe – You, sir, are quite a Truthwatcher! (but with non-corrupted spren!!)
@40:
That they will soon be flying. Well, falling, to be more accurate.
@45 aggie1
The reason Jasnah can see constantly into the cognitive at the end of Oathbringer is because Dalinar brought the three realms together, making it easier to see/access them. However Jasnah being an Elsecaller also lets her peek into the cognitive realm with greater proficiency for soulcasting. Theoretically all orders can peek into the cognitive realm. Kaladin did so briefly when he was first learning the surge of gravitation. Lift was altered by the nightwatcher’s (or cultivation. I personally lean towards cultivation) boon and curse bringing her closer to the cognitive realm which is why she can touch Wyndle in the manner she does. Now that is not to say no other spren can be touched, as we see with Shallan and Pattern, but Wyndle implies that is not normal at least with edgedancer spren.
My theory regarding the sun at night is that she is referring to the cognitive realm/shadesmar. That it became an idiom among her people during their travels through the cognitive realm to other lands. But true it could very well be Taldain. In which case the Iri have been traveling for a very long time lol.
aggie1 @45:
I am not presuaded that the Surges normally work differently for different Orders – certainly Szeth didn’t notice any differences between his use of Gravitation surge using Jezrien’s blade and then as a Skybreaker.
Re: spren hiding and other people and spren not seeing them – Syl somehow hid from the yellow Odium-spren behind Kaladin’s hair – even though I have always thought it fairly dubious – because shouldn’t they still be able to see the part of her that’s in the Cognitive Realm? But no.
Anyway, there have been theories that Renarin had a gemheart, somehow, where his spren resides but I wonder if he didn’t just swallow a gemstone for the same purpose instead – it works with Yelig-nar, so why not with Glys? It seems that both Renarin and Glys were quite aware of the latter’s need to hide.
And yes, I really hope that there is a way for at least some of the Radiants – those having Transportation and Transformation, to learn to uncover spren that try to hide from them, because otherwise it would be really easy for Odium’s spren agents both in physical and in Cognitive to spy on everything that Dalinar and Co. discuss and plan.
We also know from one of Mr T.’s chapters – maybe the one in WoR, but I am not sure, that Moelach currently resides on the Horneater Peaks.
@48 Isilel
Szeth did comment about the greater ease he used gravitation as a skybreaker than as a windrunner. I will pull up the quote to verify my recollection shortly.
edit: so far wasn’t in the training scene like I thought. Currently reviewing the battle of thayla so it may take a bit.
My assumption is because they are partially brought into the physical realm, they cannot (depending on the spren involved) easily peak back into the cognitive. But that’s just my own guess
So far Malata has shown this by using Spark to spy on Dalinar. My assumption is there would be a means to track spren and secure locations as in one of Dalinar’s visions they were able to locate the voidspren, as well as odium’s forces had a means to detect fabrial/surge usage in Kholinar. Perhaps that was the Truthwatcher’s function?
Gepeto @@@@@ 40
Renarin as a “cripple” is implied. Brandon does not have to write a whole narrative describing how people look down at Renarin because he cannot fight or wield a sword properly. Because if Brandon did that, it will be spoon feeding the readers and quite frankly, he will sound like a second rate romance writer who believes that spelling out everything to the readers is the way to go.For what’s its worth, in my eyes, Brandon did the right thing. He just hinted at it and concentrated more on moving the story forward.
Think of it this way. A woman who is naked underneath a lace cover up wherein you can see just bits and pieces of what’s underneath is sexier and more interesting than a naked woman sunbathing at the same beach.
Following that logic, a whole chapter of people jeering at Renarin so that readers can witness how cruel the Alethi society is, is just boring. Nobody likes a bully and reading about it makes it worse.
Gepeto, I have always liked you and like your commentaries. You make things very interesting. In fact, you make the discussion very lively around here.
But this time, we to agree to disagree on the portrayal of Renarin as a cripple. I don’t need to see it. I know it because it has been implied so many times. Renarin’s self doubt and Adolin’s protectiveness towards his brother is more than enough to demonstrate that fact,
I don’t know if you watch Star Wars, but in Attack of the Clones (Episode II), Obi Wan was looking for a planet that no one could find. It was not in the star map. So, he went to see Yoda who was teaching a class. And Yoda used Obi Wan’s dilemma as a teaching tool. He said, “Obi Wan has lost a planet.”
I forgot exact words, but Yoda triangulated the planet’s location by using known stars and planets, their paths and rotation. And he was able to pinpoint where the planet was. Of course in the star map, he was pointing in an empty space. But Yoda was right on target because in the next scene, Obi Wan was looking at the planet and landing on it.
I might be overreaching, but I think that Brandon has done something similar about Renarin as a cripple. Just triangulate it. It is there. No need to “see” it.
And Gepeto, for what’s its worth, I still like reading your comments. :-) We might disagree, but isn’t it the whole reason for this forum’s existence – a discourse.
I really appreciate the Evi/Dalinar relationship. I definitely saw hints during their flashback meeting that Dalinar and Evi could make the relationship work. This chapter proved it to me, yet at the same time as it offered an optimistic future for them it also raised the degree of foreboding that our limited knowledge of the eventual outcome imposed. The better the relationship became, the more horrible the end must be, and the end as it was revealed to us was truly horrifying indeed.
Re. Bridge Four,
Moash //lorem ipsum etc. etc. I kid. No Moash talk here. ;P//
I always love getting into the head of another member of the bridge crew. Sanderson has become quite skilled at giving each of his characters a unique and consistent voice, and it’s always a fun time when you can see something that you know very well from a particular perspective through the eyes of someone who views things quite differently.
@49 Scath
I also remember him talking about flying being easier, but I believe he was comparing it to using an honor blade. It’s well established that someone using a blade to access surges is less fuel efficient than someone with a spren bond and some oaths.
@52 soursavior
Looks like that was what triggered my mind. Checked the training scene, and all of the battle of Thayla and didn’t see what I was originally thinking.
Alethi praising Renarin’s academic achievements is probably like a sul’dam petting a damane. They aren’t really conscious of how condescending they are and think they are being nice to him, but he understands that they are treating him as someone lesser than themselves.
@40 Gepeto
There aren’t many people brave enough to insult the Blackthorn’s son to his face. But we hear time and time ago that the most honorable Calling for a lighteyed male is as a warrior. Scholarship is for women and ardents.
Renarin is smart enough to understand that he’s not a “real” man if he can’t fight with a sword. No one has to tell him what everyone in Alethi society knows; warriors are at the top, and every other man is beneath them in status and dignity.
@41: Thank you. My goal was to explain how my thought process was at the time, how I felt about Renarin when I read this chapter, given the narrative I had read so far and how I ended up feeling about him later on. It was important for me to see what the narrative was hinting at actually happen within the textual. Having the narrative say Dalinar is both feared and respected among the Alethi does not have the same impact if we don’t get to read many characters react this way to him. With Renarin, up until OB, we never saw any characters react negatively to him nor be anything else besides nice and supporting. When discrepancies such as this happens, my thought process usually is the underlining textual is not accurate and the easy to hand over interpretation may not be the right one.
@45: Interesting take on Evi. My impressions are she’s the kind of person who tries to do best with worst, much like Adolin. She focuses on what she can do, not what she cannot do, she focuses on the good things, not the bad ones. Hence, when she needed to marry to Dalinar for reasons still not well explained within the narrative, she tried to do best with a marriage to a man she would have never chosen for herself.
We also have inklings Dalinar was not always a monster, he had his good moments. So it is entirely plausible Evi saw the man Dalinar could be, whenever he did not let his inner monster take over, and encourage him to behave this way more often. I would hazard while Dalinar loved Navani from the start, Evi is the one who actually helps Dalinar change for the best.
How would have Dalinar turned out had he married Navani in his youth?
@50: I am not seeing things in the same manner as you to. While I understand what you are inferring at, as a reader, I do take note when in-world characters do not behave like the under-lining textual says they should be behave. When this happens, I always ask myself if the easiest interpretation of a given character is the right one.
Hence, when the narrative says Renarin is a crippled and implies this is a bad thing, it doesn’t carry the same weight when we literally see no one actually react badly to Renarin.
In fact, in both Wok/WoR the opposite happens. Wit genuinely likes Renarin and wants to shelter him. Dalinar, Navani, Adolin all are very supportive of him. Acrobacar is said to be fond of Renarin and does not want to hurt him. Bridge 4 takes on Renarin very quickly and make him a member of their group despite him being a lighteyed. Not one single character is seen reacting negatively to Renarin besides Sadeas who was just trying to insult Dalinar via his sons and Moash who’s not a very nice person.
So who was there to make Renarin feel diminished for his handicap? We had scenes at feasts where many minor characters evolved. It would have been easy to mention Renarin receiving yet another insult or retiring early because he cannot mingle well with the others. This isn’t spoon-feeding the reader, this is actually having the in-world characters behaving like the under-lining textual says they are supposed to behave. There was no need to write an entire chapter on this, but when the minor characters reaction fail to match the expectations, I wonder if the expectations aren’t wrong.
Hence, in the absence of any critics nor opposition to Renarin’s condition, as a reader, I took it he’s the one who is over-doing it. He’s the one who’s making the bigger deal out of his issues, not the other people. Up until we read OB and we got better insight on the character, it could have been Renarin is the one who over-reacting. Granted not many readers interpret the narrative in this specific way, but some did and, up until OB, it was consistent with the textual at hand.
I don’t mind disagreeing with other people. The fun of discussion is seeing how others have interpreted the same narrative and how it fluctuates. I have reacted in a given way to this chapters, others reacted differently. Sharing those thoughts are, IMHO, what this re-read is about, it isn’t about who’s right and who’s wrong. There are no right/wrong answers. Brandon even confirmed this! Well, of course, he was speaking of Adolin, but when he said there was more than one way to analyse his character, given the textual he gave us, I took it this was valid for other characters.
Hence, I definitely think there is more than one way to analyse Renarin.
@54: But without reading how this might have gone down, as a reader, I tend to focus on the fact Renarin wasn’t constantly bullied nor diminished. He was actually encouraged to become a scholar and he was praised on his intellect. That’s something, well, to me it is. It might have been as you say but it could have also been different.
@55: All true except, at the time, we happened to have “other men” examples who were “respected” without being warriors. Adolin himself claimed he never wanted to be a warrior in the first place. I agree this was retcon in OB, much to my utmost despair, but prior to reading OB, this was the canon.
Hence, when Renarin makes a big deal of not being a soldier and when the rest of the cast fail to make an equally big deal out of it, I concluded Renarin was the problem. I figured it was bad for him he can’t be a soldier because of the Alethi society, but I also figured it wasn’t as big of a deal as Renarin makes it out to be.
So while we did know the Alethi society puts soldiers on top, there was not enough reasons to believe Renarin is being mistreated. Renarni himself even agrees he is not the first son of a warlord to not be skilled in the art of war: his case is not isolated. His reaction, at the time, seemed disproportionate given he actually had talent elsewhere.
For me, the narrative of WoK/WoR was incomplete and did not allow me to reach the same conclusions as other readers.
@@@@@ birgit – yikes! That makes it seem even worse than I imagined, but it does seem like a pretty good analogy. At least the other Alethi still consider Renarin human, though. Poor damane!
@@@@@ Gepeto regarding Renarin – I see your point, but we also are seeing only people who love Renarin actually interact with him, other than Sadeas and Bridge 4. Sadeas is a jerk to everyone, as you noted, but Dalinar came *this* close to threatening him for his behavior. Dalinar is also the employer of Bridge 4 (plus he saved them from Sadeas after they saved him from Sadeas), so before they came to like Renarin as a fellow misfit they had Dalinar to answer to. Thus, I am inclined to agree with the other posters who think Dalinar’s and Adolin’s protection is a big reason we don’t see Renarin picked on. How often do we see Renarin unaccompanied by either his father or his brother?
@57: To be fair, in the scene at hand, Sadeas was trying to provoke Dalinar. He was trying to get Dalinar to react, so he insulted his sons, both his sons, not just Renarin. Had Renarin been the glistening crowned with glory King’s Champion, Sadeas would have still found something negative and insulting to say about him and Dalinar would have still been tempted to react. Hence, I didn’t get it was the insult to Renarin specifically which nearly triggered Dalinar, it was the overall insult which was of course targeted at him, not at his sons.
Well, it is true we don’t see Renarin alone often. I however noted, during the feast, early in WoK, after Navani arrives, Adolin says he has to find Renarin to tell him the good news. Renarin was not with Adolin. He was at the feast. Readers are free to presume on where he was, with whom and what he was doing. We also see Renarin alone, kind of, with Zahel who’s another one who takes on to Renarin very quickly.
OB helped put things in perspective and got Rock telling much needed things to Renarin. No, he isn’t a great warrior like his father and his brother, but he is smart. The only one who turning it into a weakness is him. Not society. Not the others, but him. This was one of my favorite conversation within the book.
@42: Now I wonder if the stormlight Lift would get from an alcoholic beverage is more or less than she would need to expend on preventing intoxication. Probably depends on the beverage. I would still prefer to watch her eat.
My vision is much less blurry with glasses than without them, but still blurry, as well as very myopic and light-sensitive. I want to have clear, strong vision, but I can’t imagine what it would be like. :-(
Yeah, in Soldier Son I think a second son becomes heir when his older brother dies, to the dismay of their asshat father, but I don’t recall it affecting their younger brother who’s in the clergy and seems suited to it.
“Blackness from the old stories” = “The Evil” from Threnody? We know the Iri are descendants of Worldhoppers.
@Gepeto: the whole point of Adolin not wanting to be a warrior was precisely that he had to, anyway. And Dalinar clearly would have been better off with another fierce and capable son, and instead he had a sickly one who needed constant help. Of course Dalinar and Navani supported Renarin, but that doesn’t mean they didn’t wish for him to be someone who needed less support. If Dalinar sincerely thought Renarin was fine as he was, why would he offer to give up his own Shards to turn his young son into a warrior?
@59: In Soldier’s Son, the sons roles are indeed defined by their birth order. I don’t recall the title of the father, I would think a lord or something, nobility and when you are nobility, your first son inherits your title, your second son is sent to the army and your third or fourth son is sent to the clergy (I think). The story really doesn’t focus on the younger sons, they are only mentioned in the passing, so my recollection may not be correct.
It however gets a bit more complicated in the sense those rules only apply to the ruling class. If you are the second son of nobility, you become an officer in the army, and your sons are bond by other rules. They enter the army too, not as officers though, but there are no titles to inherit. Only the second sons of lords and the sons of soldiers are allowed to enter the army.
In the story, Nevare’s father was actually a second’s son and a soldier but after a war I forgot the details of, he gets promoted to lord. Hence, when Nevare is sent to the officer’s school with the other second sons and not the regular army as would have been proper for the a mere soldier’s son, he gets bullied and looked down upon.
And yes, if the older son dies, then the second son inherits.
So while similar to the Horneaters line of inheritance, it also differs in its rule. Those books can be tedious, it goes from bad, to terrible, to awful and there isn’t a big pay-off at the end. Truly not Hobb’s best work, but still interesting for anyone not afraid of being depressed by the book they read.
@60: In WoK/WoR both Adolin and Dalinar agree Adolin never really wanted to be a soldier and didn’t like the warfare. In OB, we see young Adolin yearn to be a soldier and be one at a very young age. He grew up on a warcamp and was a soldier at 15. This was a breach of canon from the previous book and something I’d love to ask Brandon about.
How Dalinar/Navani really feels about Renarin is not very well referenced within all three books. Both appear very supportive of him and seem to genuinely want him to find his place. Both think he’d be better with the scholar, both think this is something he would like, not just be good at, but like. Hence both seem to care about what would make Renarin happy or this is how I read it. Therefore, if they wished he weren’t as needy, it doesn’t show in the narrative. Perhaps, at first, they wished things had been different, but by now they just seem to want to help him.
Dalinar gives his own Shard to Renarin because Renarin threatened to kill himself if Dalinar didn’t. It was unconscious manipulation done by Renarin, the ages old: “If you don’t do this, I will kill myself”. It made it hard to feel sympathy for the character, after reading this, because my sibling always used those threats. Do what I say or I will attempt suicide thus leaving my poor parents no choice but to oblige. This being said, WoK’s narrative says Dalinar understands Renarin may want to be a soldier so badly he cannot think of anything else. He thinks back on how he would have let no one tell him he can’t be a soldier, so they kind of bond here.
Therefore, Dalinar giving the Plate to Renarin wasn’t because he wanted Renarin to be a warrior, it was because he wanted his son to be happy and to try at what he wants to try. This is how I always read it anyway.
Thank you, Alice and Lyn, for a great article. You pretty much covered everything, no small feat with so much packed into Lunamor’s chapter.
Re: Dalinar and Evi. This is the high point of their marriage, where I can see its potential. He loves Navani, but thinking about how Gavilar ignored her makes Dalinar try to pay attention to what his own wife is saying, at least trying not to treat her in a way he didn’t like Navani treated. When Evi learns that he spared the child, she is so happy to find this side of Dalinar, and Dalinar being happy for the moment just being a hero to his wife, is sweet. Sad to see the potential for the marriage to get better from here, knowing it wont be realized.
Re: Teft’s spren. I would love her to be Phendorana, but if she is like a Queen she will probably stay in Shadesmar. Her hair description–“streaming” doesn’t really match Teft’s spren’s cloud-like hair. A pity, as I really want to meet her and have her and Syl interact, and Teft getting a spren that thought it could boss Syl around would be interesting.
Re: Kaladin protecting everyone. Rock noted it, and tries to advise him on how unrealistic that is. Sigzil noted it too, that Kaladin always thought that. Glad to see that amongst Kaladin’s men, they have noted this and have a more realistic view of things.
Re: Renarin
Sometimes we as people are our own worse enemy. For Renarin, why would he ever aspire to be a scholar? He was taught by his mother to idolize his father, one of the greatest living war heroes. He idolizes his older brother, who is from an outsiders perspective is a perfect Alethi heir and a worthy successor to the great Blackthorn. Alethi society praises warriors above all, treating all other professions as also-rans. Maybe if Renarin was someone else’s child he wouldn’t harbor such feelings of inadequacy, wouldn’t spurn his gifts so. It turns even Dalinar’s protection into a sort of insult. Sadeas can insult Adolin with impunity; Dalinar expects him to be able to defend himself even against a highprince that outranks him. But he needs to defend Renarin to the point where he’s willing to start a war over an insult to his sickly son. So while no one is ever going to publicly insult or bully Renarin it’s not like he cannot see the disdainful glances, the dismissal by his peers. He hears it when the women his brother courts call him strange, see him as unworthy of attention. And whether real or imagined, he would see going into the ardentia as failing his family and their glorious martial heritage. In addition, he knows that he has been sheltered by everyone who has ever cared for him. Bridge 4 has been the only group outside the family that constantly shelters him he has ever found acceptance. And they have managed to integrate him into the group without trying to coddle him. So when Lunamor speaks to him of the ardentia, Renarin cannot dismiss it as just another well-meaning family member trying to hide away an embarrassment.
Gepeto @61 said “Dalinar gives his own Shard to Renarin because Renarin threatened to kill himself if Dalinar didn’t.”
Please provide a cite for this statement. From what I recall, Renarin never did such a thing. It would be totally against his character. He wanted to please his father. Renarin knew that he could not be a soldier due to his seizures. But he tried anyways as best he could. As I recall WoK and WoR, Dalinar gave his ShardPlate to Renarin because Dalinar determined that Dalinar needed to be a diplomat. He traded his ShardeBlade for the Bridgemen. Dalinar believed that because of his focus on politics and that Renarin would never be able to claim ShardPlate on his own, this was the best course.
How do you interpret that as Renarin threatening to kill himself unless he got his ShardPlate? In my opinion, I think if Renarin had his choice, he would have wished that Dalinar did not give him the ShardPlate.
Like many of us (me included), you have your interpretation of certain scenes. If we did not, this re-cap would be boring. However, I have noticed that sometimes you are so insistent on believing that a scene should be interpreted in the way you want it to be that you twist the text in such a way as to actually misconstrue what actually was written. I think this is one such instance. In past comments you have wished that Brandon wrote a scene differently so that it played out in a way you think is better,. I would not tell you not to think that way about a scene. (I have done the same thing in the past — thus it would be hypocritical of me to do so now.)
When I do express my thoughts as to wishing that Brandon wrote a scene differently, I am always careful to make sure that all the readers on this blog now that I wish Brandon wrote said scene differently. I do read into a scene views or words that the text do not support.
Feel free to take or leave my advice.
Thanks for reading my musings,
AndrewHB
aka the musespren
@64:
Renarin claims it would be better if he were dead because he is not a soldier. His jest convinced his father to give him the next set of Shards he wins even though Renarin is not a trained warrior and Shards would actually be wasted on him. Eventually, this set of Shards ended up being Dalinar’s old Plate once he decides to retire from the battlefield, but Dalinar made the promise before he decides to become a diplomat.
So there, Renarin does inadvertently get his father to give him Shards, not intentionally, he wasn’t trying to have this result, but his desire to die is what got Dalinar to give him Shards in the first place. He wasn’t planning to give him his, not at the time, but he eventually led to this.
I agree this scene is supposed to make the character sympathetic and, as a rule of thumb, it works for 99.9% of the readers. I unfortunately grew up with a sibling who used menaces and jests such as this one to get preferential treatment. Oh there too, it wasn’t 100% intentional, but when you are the one who needs to give something away to answer to those, you end up having a much different perspective on similar events.
For the rest, I will answer in a general manner, so this will not be targeted to anyone specifically.
I am aware it is the general assumption I am unable to read this book properly and every interpretation I come up with is self-made involving myself twisting the text to make it say what I want as if I was not intelligent enough to have a rational explaining why I feel this way. Of course, I have to rely on disintegrating the narrative to come up with my theories as if I weren’t, I’d be saying the exact same comment as everyone else!
I would love to have others realize Brandon Sanderson himself said there were more than one way to interpret his narrative. He encourages his readers to draw out their own interpretations and he is aware many readers will not come up with the same conclusions.
Hence, there isn’t ONE way to interpret a given passage and there isn’t ONE emotional reaction to have upon reading this book, there just as many interpretations as there are readers and no one is wrong, no one is right. I am definitely not trying to convince everyone my interpretation is the only valid one, I find it is often the opposite, others trying to convince me I am wrong. Even I were wrong, it doesn’t change the fact this chapter triggered anger when I read it. It doesn’t change the fact it was difficult for me to feel sympathy for Renarin’s character. It does not matter if my interpretation of the narrative differs from other readers, all that matter is this is how I read it and how I read it will influence how I view the rest of the story. I am either bold enough, stupid enough and/or suicidal enough to share my thoughts knowing for a fact others will react negatively to them.
So why do I bother? Because there truly is more than ONE interpretation to those books and more than ONE interpretation of those characters. Often, I only read one.
Others disagree with me? Everyone is free to disagree with me, I never tried to convinced others. I have however spent a lot of time trying to defend myself and/or trying to explain why I have this interpretation and/or why I was refusing to see it the same way as others.
Hate it or love it, my posts often help create discussion. I like to believe if people partake in it, then it must be because they enjoy some of it. And I do this, like everyone else, on my own free time. I get nothing in return, absolutely nothing.
Others, they get friendship for other posters, they get respect because others like their analytic skills. Others, they get belonging, the one thing I can say I genuinely crave for. And what do I get? Honestly, not much besides the knowledge I have spoken of truths no one else speak about and perhaps, just perhaps, at the end of this, one or two people will actually learn to respect me for who I am.
Hence, please I am not trying to convince anyone. I am just trying to speak of how I read the narrative and how I interpreted the narrative. Because it differs so much from anyone else is exactly what prompts me to write it or else everyone would just endlessly agree without trying to see if there isn’t something else to read within this book than what they had already grasp.
Gepeto @65. I hate admitting I am wrong. Unfortunately, I have to do that in this instance. I did not remember the text you quoted between Renarin and Dalinar. (At least IMO), I can see how someone could make the argument you did. I disagree with you. But I have to eat my words that in this instance you did not (IMO) twist the text so completely around that your interpretation is in conflict with the actual text. I will continue to believe that Renarin does not have it in his character to intentionally threaten Dalinar with Renarin’s suicide to get what he wants (in this instance, ShardPlate). I read this scene as thinking that Renarin believes that he is a waste to House Kholin. I believe Renarin never thought his speach/threat would result in getting ShardPlate. In fact, if Renarin knew that his threatening to commit suicide would have caused Dalinar to give Renarin ShardPlate, then Renarin would have not said anything.
Thanks for reading my musings.
AndrewHB
aka the musespren
@66: AndrewHB, I do not think you meant bad, but I am a human being and I have feelings. What you wish were just friendly (I hope they were friendly) advises really saddened me. I put a lot of myself into this re-read and having others jump in an say I am twisting the narrative to befit my interpretation in ways which contradict the canon is actually hurtful because my perspective is I never did such thing. I always tried to explain where my interpretation comes from and why I have it. Should I lie about how I felt after reading a given chapter so my thoughts would be more in-line with others? Does everyone get it right the first time around? Am I the only one who reacts to the narrative in ways which aren’t always the intended ones?
Hence, what you wish was an advise sounded like, yet another, critic, a week after being called distasteful (not you), I am sorry but it is very difficult for me to take it all in. I understand this way probably not your intentions, but I needed to say I am currently struggling with it because it hurts my feelings.
For instance, you say you do not believe Renarin purposefully made a jest earn himself Shards. I have said as much within my post @65. Here is what I said:
But in your post, you insinuate I have been saying Renarin has tried to get his father to give him Shards, on purpose. This will make others think I am, once again, claiming something I never actually ever intended to say. Even in post @61, I said:
Hence, I never insinuated I believed Renarin had purposefully manipulated Dalinar, but his jest did have this result. Renarin threats about killing himself is what got Dalinar to take this decision, whether he planned it or not, for me, is irrelevant. Renarin did make a jest about killing himself and it did earn him something he might not have gotten otherwise. Some find this sympathetic, sad and take pity on Renarin.
Unfortunately, as I said, I have seen similar jests being used too often within my real-life to feel this way towards Renarin.
Renarin joked about dying not suicide. I think that’s a non-trivial difference.
@68: A death he would have purposefully triggered by purposefully jumping in front of a giant chamsfiend without wearing a proper armor nor carrying proper weapons. That sounded a lot like an admission he had done it with a dim hope he might actually die. Perhaps not quite a suicide attempt, but very near it. Someone once wrote a very long post about this scene, about how Renarin had actually been trying to commit suicide. It was a long time ago, but this interpretation does exist within the fandom. I am not the only one who read it this way.
And as a complete non sequitur to the Renarin conversation, I would just like to note that Mrs Rock is skilled in a bow and has no problem whatsoever sticking arrows into the servants of Odium. There is a lot of information about “sons” in the Horneater culture, but not much on “daughters”. Does she get to shoot arrows because she was the wife of a fourth son (as far as she knew when she was busy shooting arrows at the fused)? Or can she just do that anyway?
1: Can I point out that we have NOT seen Renarin’s flashbacks yet.
2: There’s also a theory in the 17th shard going on that autism may run in the Kholin family and I think that may make sense. I get a feeling from that in Elkohar the way he isn’t as slow to catch on as people think. but
3: Also this is more about the Asperger’s part of the autistic spectrum then autism specifically but I am copying it because it seems realvant. It’s important to note that while Aspies can be very nice, open people, that doesn’t mean they’re all nice all the time, or that they’re naive. They may not have the same empathic connection to the world as you do, but they sure are good at working out how other people think (partly because they had to put so much more effort into working it out in their youth; talent is cheap). It’s something of a 50/50 whether an Aspie wishes they weren’t, or they may actually look down on Neurotypical people, thinking of them as mindless sheep following the status quo, dishonest and arrogant, or even cruel and insensitive. Try to upset them deliberately and you’ll rarely get the reaction you expected, because the two most confusing emotions for Aspies are sorrow and anger. And while it depends on the individual, they may have a very unexpected Berserk Button.
4: I also wonder if Evi had it as well.
5: That scene where after Rock talks to Renarin and explains to that “he doesn’t count” is what Rlain has heard from everybody seems to me like Renarin had an “oh” moment where it suddenly hits him that he’d been treating Rlain the way others had been treating him. That’s a type of mement I can identify with. Also the moment where he goes over and just sits next to Rlain reminds me of the moment in Shadows of Self where Wax is grieving and everyone trys to give him the “Right words” Steris is able to comfort him just by being by his side. I could be wrong but this seems designed as a deliberate call back to that in my mind.
Sorry for getting into it so much. It’s just the more I read the series the more signs of it I see popping though in this family. And how trying to conform to social expectations for people bad at it, especially in a society with such messed up views, has broken them. (Heck It’s one of the reasons I want to know what Dalinar was like before Odium got his hands on him.)
There’s a tendency in the real world to make many historical figures autistic on skimpy to no evidence except some superficial personality quirks that are not unique to people with autism. For example, Einstein is sometimes confidently referred to has having autism, but he showed literally no signs of it. He was a charming lady’s man who never misread a social situation and made friends easily.
I see some of the fannish reading of every character in Sanderson’s opus as autistic as being the same sort of thing. There are definitely people with autism (Steris, the Elantrian kid I forget the name of who was a math savant) but not every socially awkward person has autism, in reality or in the Cosmere.
@50 AeronaGreenjoy
Hmmm, that really has me thinking lol. I think she would get more stormlight converting it, than needing to heal it. Sanderson has said that whereas we metabolize food into sugar, Lift metabolizes it into investiture. So for instance cake would give her a burst of investiture faster, while something dense in calories like a sausage would give her more investiture but slower. So I could see beer and wine giving her a spike of investiture relatively quickly given its caloric content. Now in my mind, total conjecture on my part, given that the liver naturally detoxifies the human body (within reason), I would not hazard that much stormlight being needed to cleanse the effects. So theoretically even if Lift would get intoxicated from drinking beer to make investiture, I think she would still have a net gain despite using some to detoxify herself. Even though Rock could use stormlight in addition to his prodigious natural drinking capacity, he would still run the risk of running out of stormlight and ultimate lose the contest. Meanwhile Lift simply maintaining the race would maintain her immunity. Though I do agree it would be just as humorous if not more so to watch Lift put away the pounds in contrast to Rock lol.
Ack, in that case I understand where you are coming from and I do agree that might be difficult for stormlight to heal. Makes me wonder if there could be ways to “trick” your cognitive self to get healing that would be beneficial. So for instance you mentioned you were light sensitive. One year I went to Comic Con as Ice King from Adventure time, before he fully transformed. This involved me wearing blue tinted sunglasses the entire time. Eventually I realized I no longer “saw” in blue. Everything seemed to be colored normally, but the moment I removed the sunglasses, suddenly everything was tinted yellow. So perhaps if you wore slightly tinted glasses that compensated for your light-sensitivity 24/7, eventually your mind/cognitive self would associate that as normal, and you could heal it with stormlight. Makes me wonder if that is true, if it could be extended to even more drastic effects. Such as if someone had lost a limb for years, far beyond Renarin’s healing capabilities. Given them a very realistic prosthetic. Wear that prosthetic every moment of the day, and continually enforce in your own mind that it is your actual limb. Then one day remove it, use healing, and perhaps grow your new arm. Or in Rysn’s case (now this would be limited given their technological level in the novels), but in our present day there is research in frames that attach to your waist and legs, and you can control it to “walk”. Again perhaps if Rysn could focus her mind enough to convince herself that is her natural state, she could then be healed to it. I see an entire field open up in the psychology world where therapists would help people get their minds to the state they need to be at, the receive stormlight healing of old wounds. The future of Roshar would be very bright indeed.
The more I think about it, the more I hazard Rock’s older brother’s children accompanied them. When the older siblings got killed, their family rose up and got killed too. Rock somehow survived. Now whether it is because he really was their cook due to his birth order, and thus was viewed by Sadeas as inconsequential, or some other reason I do not know. But the end result would still be Rock taking over, while any subsequent siblings stay the same, and the only change to his own family would be his first son then being considered a prince.
@62 nightheron
Very true. We see a glimpse of Dalinar’s self awareness in that moment. Very rare, but very real. Seeing Navani being ignored by her husband, causes Dalinar to want to be better about it with his own wife. I think that bittersweetness of knowing where their relationship will go crystallizes the beauty of these scenes all the more, like dptullos said earlier.
I hope Phendorana will end up being Teft’s spren too. I feel like someone as gruff, and jaded as Teft needs a spren as strong and forceful as Phendorana to help him grow and overcome his personal demons. I will need to go back and check the descriptions again, because although I do not think it precludes it (as Syl takes many forms and alters herself more and more as Kaladin and her bond), it would definitely be interesting to keep a closer eye on it. Thanks for pointing that out!
@70 nightheron
Total conjecture and spit balling, but maybe the horneaters have a similar prohibition to certain weapons? So for instance, a bow and arrow can be used to hunt for food, so it is not intrinsically meant for combat so is allowed for any to use? While a sword only has one purpose, and thus would be exclusive only to ones born for battle? So I feel she could shoot arrows because she could do that anyway, but like I said total conjecture on my part.
In our world mirrors can be used to cure phantom limb pain. Stormlight might allow healing the limb, and Roshar should be able to produce mirrors.
A drinking contest between Lift and Rock isn’t funny. There are already too many coma drinking kids who would just be encouraged by seeing something like that in fiction and don’t have Stormlight to heal themselves.
@74 birgit
I did not know that was a thing, and that is an awesome point! Hmmm, makes me wonder what ways could be used to mimic movement for paraplegics and quadriplegics on Roshar to potentially heal them as well.
No problem, fast forward to the back five of stormlight where Lift would be 23-24 and the drinking contest can occur then. Lift would still seem very slight and small when next to Rock and for me Rock’s incredulity would still be as potent while Lift would be well within legal drinking age.
@74 – so any child who wouldn’t be able to see this only works because lift has magic and tries to do this themselves….well isn’t this what the Darwin awards were made for?
Also I am curious about the discussion of grim dark here. By the definition you seem to be using I am not sure there is anything I would call grimdark. Maybe the definitions I am using are different but Game of Thrones or the new battlestar galactica are commonly referred to as grimm dark. I wouldn’t call either of these entirely “bad people doing bad things and having bad things happen to them”.
@Gepeto – I am not sure which country you are in – some earlier discussions I think it wasn’t the states right? This may be a cultural/generational difference. Many of the sci-fi/fantasy reading community fall into the intellectual non-athletic type. I would say that US culture especially in the 80s glorified athletic pursuits above intellectual (some would argue this is getting better I am not so sure). Many of us I expect see the similar signs in Alethli culture, see the insecurity in Renarin and go – yup I know what is going on here.
I have found that so much of literary interpretation depends on culture and that Authors do take into account (often subconsciously) their own culture when writing. Sanderson, being very worldly, might realize this and so put these more direct scenes in. (on somewhat of a tangent this is why interpretations of such things as the Bible that didn’t look at the culture in which the various books were written always seemed rather ridiculous to me).
Not in anyway to say your interpretation is invalid but just to point out why some of us may have filled in blanks differently.
@76: Great explanation! Not one I have thought of… I never thought of how it might be easier for American readers to interpret the narrative in a given way than it might be for me due to a slightly different cultural background. I am aware of how the American society puts a lot of emphasis on sports within kids. I understood it was linked to College admission, it apparently eased the ability to earn a scholarship if you are good in a sports? Something like that? This doesn’t happen here. Either way, States are very patriotic, very “victory oriented”, so I wouldn’t have lived within the same environment.
I also never been the typical fantasy fan. Make a portray of what the typical fantasy fan is supposed to be and I am probably close to being the complete opposite. It can also explain why I never read the narrative the same way as others. I’m just… I guess… a different person?
On the matter of athletic pursuits, where I live I was raised being told I could be anything I wanted. I was encouraged to move for the fun of it and to develop healthy habits. I was never put into competition and neither did I ever feel people had to do it to be worthy of anything. So that might explains why I don’t personally make a Big Deal out of Renarin not being athletic. I also tend to think it is better to be very smart than very athletic though myself probably lingers in between the two extremes.
I find society certainly deems it more important to be smart than good in sports, but YMMV. This could indeed be traced back to my close environment.
@72, Carl – We talk about Renarin being on the autism spectrum – because Brandon and Peter (his editor) have both said he’s on the spectrum.
https://wob.coppermind.net/adv_search/?query=autism#7099
It’s not readers making it up or reading their bias into the character.
Adien is the “Elantris kid.” In a Writing Excuses podcast, Brandon said he rather regretted making Adien the “Rain Man” / Hollywood version of autistic. So now he writes the characters with the condition by trying to be more nuanced about their behaviors.
General: Every reader projects their own bias into their reading. Sometimes the sub-text really supports their PoV. Sometimes it does not. Until the books claims otherwise, we have to be flexible with fan interoperation.
My bias:
I’m fully on the side of Teft’s spren is not Syl’s aunt. For one, Teft is under Kaldin’s command. While I doubt the spren will follow human command structures – I just don’t see the “Queenly” like figure of her aunt going for someone directory under Kaladin’s command.
I was a kid with a Learning Disability, when they still called it LD class in school. Kids are not kind to those who are different. I read Renarin as being bullied for his “issues” in the text.
Gepteo is coming at it from a different PoV and a different cultural reading.
Sometimes a writer has to show more for more readers to see things one way. We shall see what happens when we get Renarin’s book in the back 5.
@Braid_Tug, Renarin being autistic makes sense to me. I was referring to the idea that Jasnah, Dalinar, and Adolin are also autistic.
“White sun at night”
I’m late to this week’s party, but I’m a little surprised no one suggested that this refers to the white sun of Shadesmar, which is in a black sky.
@76 dwcole
Personally I view grimdark as in the view of such novels as “The Blade Itself”. I understand the point the author is going for to show us that everyone has flaws, life does not end happily ever after, and the cyclical nature of life, love, war, and death. It is very poignant. It is also very grim and very dark lol. Every single character is portrayed in as negative of a light as possible, with horrible things being done by them and to them to further the plot that ultimately ends the way it began. That is why even though I persevered and read all three books in the trilogy, it personally is not my cup of tea. Bad people, doing bad things, and having bad things done to them. It doesn’t cause me to care about them and thereby care about their plights and their accomplishments. If Dalinar was only a bad man, that did bad things, then there would be no tragedy in losing Evi. No struggle to be become a better man. No sense of accomplishment when he overcomes his past. That’s one of the many reasons I enjoy Sanderson’s stories. He can make you love and hate his heroes and villains in equal measure giving them a depth I do not often see in other novelists.
So I dug some more into the details we have about Rock. In Way of Kings, Rock tells Kaladin that he is just a cousin to the nuatoma (chief). If the child from number 4 on are soldiers, then it could mean that Tifi and Sinaku’a were actually the fourth, and fifth making Rock the sixth. This is because they raised arms in retribution, and would have to be of the 4th on in order to use weapons. However the way Song makes it sound is by Kef’ha, Tifi’s and Sinaku’a’s deaths Rock becomes something very important. So either Rock is lying about what birth order assigns to what tasks, or he is lying about being the cousin of Kef’ha, or he is Kef’ha’s cousin, and Tifi and Sinaku’a are Kef’ha’s brothers, and by them dying that direct line ends, thereby jumping to Rock’s line and in reality Rock was not a fourth son, or even third, he was the first son of his own line. So by then jumping to his line, he becomes nuatoma. I have to check more but I do not believe it states directly by anyone that Kef’ha, Tifi, nor Sinaku’a are his brothers though hints could indicate they are. Rock does mention that he was “always a cook” because as a guard of the nuatoma, they have many skills in addition to fighting, not counting his heritage and blessings. Rock also mentioned that he chose to accompany Kef’ha, so perhaps he was not always Kef’ha’s guard, but was always a warrior of his people based on his heritage and blessings? I also find it interesting that Rock mentions that he had intended to summon his family from the peaks before Sadeas and the bridgecrews happened. My earlier statement might be wrong about inheritance being patrilineal as when Rock sees Phendorana, he asks Syl is she is her nuatoma so the title might not be exclusively male. Not knowing what tidbit of info Rock is potentially lying about does make narrowing things down difficult. Shame we do not see more of Rock’s children (Gift, Cord, Little Rock, Star, Shell, and Beautiful Song). They could give us further insight
I’ve missed a bunch of conversation it appears, but this was a really great re-read this week. I hadn’t initially noticed (or at least I don’t remember it) that Dalinar’s attention to Evi was in part inspired by wanting to be a better husband to his wife than Gavilar (although he likely wouldn’t have noticed/cared if he wasn’t still in love with Navani).
I think Gepeto does raise an interesting question as to what he would have become had he married Navani from the start.
I love Rock’s family and his solid (no pun intended) advice to Renarin. And as a similarly bookish/awkward child who sometimes resented it, I can also relate to needing that bit of advice.
I don’t love Rock’s casual racism though ;)
@83: Yes, I honestly did wonder about what might have become of Dalinar had he married Navani, the “perfect” Alethi wife.
Part of the conflict Dalinar had with Evi came from the fact she would not support him within his warring “activities”. She followed him because she felt obliged to it, she mingled with the others because she felt she needed to, but she never fitted. She never agreed with the need to war nor to kill. If she could understand why Dalinar would kill someone trying to kill him, she kept on advocating the others, the soldiers, the people, they never had the chance to choose. They do not deserve to die for the mistakes of their Highprince.
I have a lot of sympathy for Evi. I found her to be a tragic character. I was saddened when I saw her receiving negative comments within the fandom. I thought she was a very courageous woman: of all people, she is the only one who stood up to the Blackthorn and because she did, she ultimately inspired him to change.
Now, had Dalinar been married to Navani, he would have never gone through this marital conflict. Navani would have supported him through his warring like any good Alethi wife. She wouldn’t have passed judgment, she wouldn’t have criticized the Alethi ways because she would have been raised within this culture. Dalinar might have loved her, but could Navani’s love been enough to have him over-come his dependence to the Thrill? It was Evi’s beliefs and her willingness to sacrifice herself for them which had Dalinar eventually crash down and re-evaluate himself. Could this have happened had he married Navani?
I think probably not.
I tend to agree, and I share your admiration for Evi :) I didn’t realize she had ‘haters’. I get not everybody loves every character and has their particular favorites, but I didn’t see Evi as one that would generate actual antipathy!
@73 scath: Agree with Teft’s gruff personality and strong-willed Phendorana’s being a good match. Plus I think it would be entertaining. The only thing I think supports it is that his spren seems to always appear full-sized and as a full-grown woman. whereas Syl and Ruaa aren’t always so big or mature. His spren at least seems to belong to one of the older generations.
@78 Braid Tug, I go back and forth on whether or not Teft’s spren could be Phendorana, but I think that if she had decided to bond a KR, it is already too late o pick someone who won’t end up under Kaladin’s command. Second in command is the highest she can get. So I figure she either went back to Shadesmar to do queenly stuff, or she picked Teft.
@Gepeto: You mentioned that you are probably far from the typical fantasy fan. I wonder where we all fall on that spectrum? I play D&D and used to read comic books in the “80s, but don’t read much fantasy fiction. Usually I read non-fiction, or mystery novels. I did like Harry Potter, a lot, and participated on forums for that. I only read the Stormlight Archives because my daughter wanted me to and lent me her books, but neglected to mention that it wasn’t a trilogy, but a 10 book series, 7 of which have yet to be written, the rat. But I quickly fell in love with Roshar with its rocks and rain and many-legged beasts. I plan to read Edgedancer and Warbreaker, eventually maybe, but don’t know that I will touch anything else Cosmere. I pretty much only read fantasy books that my daughter hands me because she wants to share, and I’m happy to try liking something she likes. Which worked out well in the case of Roshar.
Edit: sorry about all the weird typos. broke my glasses so things are a bit blurry.
@85: I wouldn’t say she has “haters”, but there are readers who were unsympathetic to her. They felt her running away to Tanalan was stupid, idiotic and caused her death. Within their interpretation of the narrative, Evi was more to fault for her death than Dalinar as all she had to do was to support her husband. Some readers also are very sympathetic to Dalinar and tend to view Evi in a negative manner because she tried to change him and/or because she was not strong enough for him.
My view of Evi is both positive and tragic. After reading OB, I couldn’t stop asking myself where did she come from, why did she run away from her homeland and what was it which was strong enough for her to sacrifice so much for it. I find it fascinating… I am more curious about Evi than I am of, well, many other characters.
I also appreciated Evi as I felt she was one of the only character we have seen to oppose the Blackthorn. Navani, everyone loves Navani, but she is the perfect wife, she is the followed, the second fiddle. She supports Dalinar in everyone of his endeavors: could she really be one to criticize? To offer the opposite viewpoint?
Evi was this person. Despite her shyness and her meekness, she still came across as the one to challenge Dalinar in his beliefs. I cannot see Navani ever achieving the same.
@87
I agree with you about Evi. It took an outsider’s perspective for Dalinar to realize that he wasn’t the great man in his youth that everyone else told him he was, from his brother the King to his ardents to his soldiers to all the common men who didn’t fall to his blades. He probably wouldn’t have felt the need for redemption had he married Navani. However, had Navani become his wife he likely wouldn’t have slid so far down either. He described Navani evoking feelings within him that were as powerful as the Thrill. With Navani he probably doesn’t seek battle as much, especially once she bore him children. Plus, Navani isn’t the type to back down, not even in the face of the terrible Blackthorn. While I believe Dalinar came to have at least some love for Evi, prompting him to eventually seek forgiveness and absolution, she was always second place in Dalinar’s affection. With Navani he learns different lessons, experiences less pain, and probably becomes less desirable a candidate for Odium’s Champion.
@@@@@ Gepeto & Lisamarie – As one who always loved Evi, and hadn’t really come across any negative reactions to her other than a few people who thought she was boring, you can imagine my shock the other day when someone in one of the SA facebook groups called her a “sanctimonious b****.” I was absolutely stunned that someone could see her that way, and had to wonder what book they’d read… Clearly not the same one I had!
Last second comment on a small detail: Goose feathers!
The Unkalaki arrow is fletched with goose feathers. Not bark, or even “chicken” feathers. I just think it is funny that on a world where all birds are chickens that Rock knows what a goose is. The Peaks must be like the mountains of Urithiru, with the highstorms passing below, allowing unusual fauna to survive there.
@90 nice catch. I absolutely missed that.
@86 nightheron
That’s a good point, I need to check over those scenes again but I think you are right. When Phendorana first shows up, she is the only human sized spren among the honorspren. When we see Lopen’s spren later, he is small and Syl likes to be small, but if Teft’s always appears as human size, it could be a potential link.
I also do think that the spren do not concern themselves with human societal structure in a way that limits who they bond with. For example Cryptics are the “nobility” and “scientists” of the spren world yet they bond artists. Ivory, an Elsecaller spren had the form of a warrior with a sword when he first met Jasnah, yet Elsecaller spren tend to bond scholars (though logical warriors have bonded as well). Finally Jezerezeh is is the Herald of Kings, and at least appears to lead the Heralds, yet the order of radiants that follow him seem to take more the form of general infantry or paratroopers while Ishar comes off as a religious leader and advisor to the king, yet the bondsmiths seem like the order that leads the radiants (as it is also mentioned there were three thrones in Urithiru from which the Bondsmiths sat). So the spren mimicing the honorblades, and the orders taking each herald as a patron do not necessarily link up. So unless Phendorana bonds a bondsmith somehow, she will always be bonded to someone who is subordinate to someone else.
One DnD geek to another, I started on 3.5, played some 4.0, but have not had a chance to play 5.0. Got a favorite edition?
@90 nightheron
Great eye! Hmmm, would make sense. Cultivation’s shardpool being in proximity could also have a large effect on the local fauna and floral like in Sixth of Dusk (white out for spoilers)
@Gepeto, Evi was presumably meant to be both annoying and sympathetic. Brandon knows what he’s doing.
Rock’s people knowing about geese … of course they aren’t speaking Alethi. Maybe other Rosharian languages kept the distinctions between animals better. In fact I’m sure Shin does.
@@@@@92 scath
I started with 1e, but 2e was my favorite and the group I play with still plays a heavily houseruled version of that edition. I’ve played 3.5 also, never 4e, and I have occasionally DMed 5e. So I guess 2e is my favorite, followed by 5e because that one I don’t have to explain to people.
So Cultivations shardpool is in the Horneater Peaks? Hmm. When Dalinar goes to meet the Nightwatcher, he notes “wild chickens”, which appear to be songbirds (the designation of all birds as chickens amuses me to no end). And Cultivation shows up there. So, yeah, maybe usually unusual fauna thrives near Cultivation.
@@@@@ Carl
I think the Unkalaki keep the distinction like the Shin do because for them the animals are more common than for the rest of Roshar. Goose feathers are common enough to use for fletching, so for them I don’t think it is a rare bird.
@@@@@ Carl and @@@@@94 nightheron
Perhaps it is all of the above? The Shin reside in mountainous regions that avoid the storms, and as nightheron pointed out so too potentially could the horneater peaks. This would allow birds to flourish in such forests, and as result by being around birds of numerous species, you would need to specify while presumably among the Alethi, since birds are a rare occurrence, the catch all term is used. So the languages evolved to either keep the existing names while others forgot, or some developed more names, while others kept to one. For instance the inuit has hundreds of words for snow, while other cultures only have one. Greece (in ancient times at least) and Japan have multiple words for love, while other places have only one. So I could see it being a combination.
Yep it has been confirmed that her shardpool is in the horneater peaks. Would be interesting to see what kind of plants and animals exist right around it.
I do enjoy roleplaying in Dungeons and Dragons, though the tactical aspect interests me further, with the interactions of the powers (another reason I love Sanderson books lol) which is why I am looking forward to trying the strategy rpg Divinity Original Sin 2 Definitive Edition. 4th Edition is very mmo like so it is hit or miss for me, but 3.5 is still my favorite which is why from what I have heard of 5.0, I may like that edition as well.
The supposed number of snow words multiplied ridiculously with retellings. That is why linguists speak of the Eskimo Snow Hoax. One problem is that the “words” in those languages are more like sentences in other languages. Of course you can form a lot of sentences about snow.
@96 birgit
Ah the mandela effect in full effect lol. Thank you for posting the link to that article. It was very interesting :)
Fortunately Greek and Japanese still do apply with Agape, Eros, Philia, Storge and Ai, Koi, Suki respectively.
If you combine 恋 (koi) and 愛 (ai) you get another word, 恋愛 (renai) (such combinations of synonymous characters into two-character words are common). 好き (suki) is to like (it’s actually an adjective, and the character originally means good). 大好き (daisuki) means to like a lot and is often used meaning I love you.
@98 birgit
Yep yep. To further expound, ai shiteru yo is used primarily in romantic love only, and ai shitemasu yo is formal personal love for a proposal.
In Greek agape is love as in charity, usually between someone “greater” and someone “lesser”, like god and man, or parent and child. Eros is intimate love, and sexual passion. Philia is friendship love, affectionate and between equals. Storge is love also between a parent and child but more for natural empathy you feel for family.
@72 Fair I realized in hindsight I was probably overdoing it but was to lazy to go back and edit my post.
@86: Well…. I never played D&D nor Magic the Gathering nor any similar bard/board games. I do not read comic books and my interest within super-heroes is moderate. I do not play video games. I… I never mastered that first jump on Mario 1 and I cannot keep my car onto the lane in Mario Kart. Whenever I play, which really is almost never, I swing my control all across the room thinking it will make my character go faster…. I do not watch Anime nor do I plan to watch Anime but I might have liked it as a teenager had I known it existed. I have never been to any Comicon nor do I Cosplay. I find costumes people make absolutely awesome but I would NEVER disguise myself in public. I…. I would be too mortified, shy and, well, I would never dare. I actually truly admire people who are able to do it, probably because I would never be able to.
While I have a very geeky job, apart from reading fantasy, most of my interests are part of the “current geek” culture.
And well, I just do not feel like I belong. There are too many conflicts surrounding my opinion, I feel like I am a walking controversy. Hence, if there is such thing as a “typical fantasy fan”, I definitely do think I fit the mould.
@88: Would having married Navani prevented Dalinar from falling so low as to order the Rift? Given we have never read this narrative, we are basically left to guess for ourselves.
My personal guess is “the Rift” would have happened, sooner or later. I read Dalinar’s flashbacks as a slow descent, a steady and constant lost of control which accumulate in a moment where Dalinar has so little of it, he does the unforgivable. Evi has nothing to do with Dalinar’s Thrill addiction. She has nothing to do with Dalinar always summoning the Thrill to feel alive: none of this is her fault. All she ever did was suggest Dalinar uses another approach but warfare to solve a conflict which led him to fall into a trap. This was one catalyst. If not for this one, then something else would have happened to make Dalinar lose it. The end result might not have been the Rift, but it might have been equally horrifying and perhaps even worst.
Hence, Navani or Evi, Dalinar has been losing control and giving himself away to the Thrill long before he got married. The one difference I can see is Evi, unlike Navani, encouraged Dalinar to fight it back. She told him he doesn’t have to be this man, he can change, he can choose to be someone else which isn’t something I believe Navani would have ever told Dalinar.
While it is true Dalinar speaks of strong feelings, whenever he mentions Navani, I doubt they would have ever been strong enough to quell his need for blood and killing. Dalinar needed to make the conscious decision to change, he needed to believe he could change and this, this was the gift a woman he never deserved gave him.
Therefore, if Navani is the one Dalinar has always loved, Evi is the one he needed. Upon their first meeting, he said she was like a candle in the darkness. A light. In a few chapters, Dalinar will name Adolin after “light”. There is a symbolic here which I believe is important.
@89: I know! I can across similar posts which is why I mentioned not all readers reacted positively to Evi’s character. While no one I read used the word b**** some comments I have read did imply the poster might have entertained such thoughts. My personal explanation is, just like Kaladin, Dalinar is a main protagonist. Hence, any character opposing him ought to be… well, negative. Also, as I said, some do blame Evi for running away to Tanalan which did cause her death.
I think those posts do illustrate the fact not all readers are going to read the book in the same manner.
On my side, I love Evi. I never thought she was bland nor boring. I think she was one of the most courageous character we have seen, one who embodies the idea courage comes in various forms, not all of them being linked to warfare, battle and arms. Within a few chapters, Evi demonstrated how far she was willing to go for her beliefs, what sacrifices she was willing to make for what she believes is right. To my eyes, she was a true hero much more than Dalinar ever was as, unlike him, she never needed magical intervention nor a life of tempest before finally being able to stand up to something bigger than herself.
When Dalinar said he wanted to burn the Rift, Evi said no and then, she did the only thing she thought might help change this outcome while knowing for a fact this would forever break up her relationship with Dalinar. She knew there were no going back after she betrayed her husband, she knew it and yet she did it. This, this was true bravery.
@93: I do not believe Brandon can predict how every single one of his readers will react to the narrative. I think there are many instances where the fandom doesn’t react within the ways the author thought it would react.
Nightheron @90 – Nice! I completely missed that.
scath @92 – Where did you get the idea there were three thrones for the Bondsmith at Urithiru? There are several references to legends of ten thrones at Urithiru, for the kings of the ten Silver Kingdoms or the ten Epoch Kingdoms (I’m not sure there’s a difference), and there’s one reference that says “only one of their order was in continual accompaniment of Urithiru and its thrones” – but that doesn’t imply that the Bondsmiths occupied the thrones. For that matter, there’s no indication that they ever find any thrones in Urithiru, though they clearly haven’t explored the whole thing yet. The only mentions of thrones in the tower is the one Ialai sits on to receive visitors, and a couple that were brought to the meeting where Navani made everyone carry their own chair.
Gepeto @101 – “I… I never mastered that first jump on Mario 1 and I cannot keep my car onto the lane in Mario Kart.” etc. Well, there’s something else we have in common! I’m absolutely terrible at video games, and very rarely enjoy playing them. :D I do like to cosplay, however, even if I’m not very good at it.
Also, “Dalinar is a main protagonist. Hence, any character opposing him ought to be… well, negative.” I think that’s the heart of it. If you just don’t see Dalinar as doing anything wrong, anyone who stands up to him is therefore in the wrong.
@102: I noticed many fantasy readers also were avid video gamer. Of course, not all of them, but I did feel it was one aspect in which I differed from the crowd. I have nothing against video game per say, I just do not have the patience nor the interest to invest time playing them. I’m glad I am not the only and I am not kidding… I suck at video games. Like, really suck.
As I said, I admire cosplay, but it is not for me. I would never dare wearing a costume and my skills with a needle are close to non-existent. Fixing the random stuffed animal having been ripped open is about the end of it.
“If you just don’t see Dalinar as doing anything wrong, anyone who stands up to him is therefore in the wrong.”
Yes. This does explain it. Not all readers feel the same about the Rift and some readers feel very strongly for Dalinar. Hence, when Evi does not support him, she becomes the villain.
I played video games as a kid but stopped years ago. There are more interesting things to do with my time like reading books.
The Thrill is an addiction like alcohol. Dalinar is susceptible to these addictions because he is unhappy that he cannot be with Navani. If he could marry her he might have less reason to distract himself with the Thrill and alcohol.
All is welcome Gepeto, all is welcome. It takes all kinds to make a truly diverse and interesting fandom. I wish you didn’t feel so excluded by the culture surrounding Sci-fi/Fantasy. Realize that it’s ok for people to have other interests or attitudes. It definitely brings more to the discussion than if everyone agreed on every single point or read the narrative in the exact same way. I have disagreed with you many times on this forum. Never once have I felt you did not belong. You love these books, that’s obvious. To me that’s all that matters. This is coming from a person who falls well within the geek spectrum with the anime and video games (though never D&D), but doesn’t really fit in with most of my peers in my professional and personal relationships. IMO we are all a bunch of outcasts and I wouldn’t want it any other way.
Hear, hear!
I’m one of those people who dislike Evi. There is something sanctimonious in her permanent attempts to beat…something out of Dalinar. Didn’t she know about Alethi culture? Didn’t she understand that Dalinar was raising as a warrior? That he doesn’t know other life? She…really expected to learn compassion someone who has spent entire life at war? She didn’t understand and respect him and his desires. All she did was endless screwing of Dalinar’s brains. She…she wasn’t just against deaths of the civilians. She was against ALL deaths, even enemy soldiers! For years she was bugging into Dalinar’s ear how awful he is because he’s a warrior who kills people during battles. The irony is, without this “sweet compassionate flower” Rift would never happen. Dalinar would do as he planned, human losses would be minimized. Unfortunately, he decided to listen her sweet advices. After everything went into Damnation and Dalinar was nearly killed because of her, she, knowing that nothing could be done (I believe she understood that. Can’t imagine someone to be so stupid and naïve), she decided to run away into doomed city. Surprise. It didn’t end well.
Quick summary. Her stupidity caused her own death. She didn’t save anyone, human losses only increased. She left own children without mother. Dalinar turned into a broken mess. Bravo.
I understand what Brandon Sanderson tried to achieve with her character. He wanted to show one innocent, compassionate human being among “those awful Alethi”. Instead, she turned out into annoying character, whose “compassion” caused even greater destruction.
@107
You do not like Evi and that’s fine. Like or dislike whoever you want. I could not disagree with you more on your reasoning behind that hate however.
You claim that it’s a bad thing that Evi urges Dalinar to act with the honor she sees in him instead of giving in to the Thrill he and most all Alethi are addicted to. I say she was the only one who was equipped to speak that truth to him, having an outsider’s perspective on the whole mess. She succeeds for a decade because he wanted to be someone she could look at with pride. In the process he becomes a true General instead of a thug and a berserker.
You say that her pleas for compassion lead to more deaths at the Rift. I say that nothing Evi could have done or not done keeps the Rift from happening. 10,000 non-combatants were going to die that day. Evi’s death was personal for Dalinar; I argue that he should have felt something after such a massacre. No one should feel triumphant after such a display. Also, putting the blame on Evi when Dalinar gave those orders means denying him.agency, denying his responsibility. That’s something Odium would have told him.
You essentially say that her death broke Dalinar. On that we can agree. But while you disparage her for that, I find her death to be the greatest sacrifice, something that saves Roshar. If Dalinar isn’t broken, he’s probably sober at the feast and would have fought and lost to Szeth. Only Dalinar the wretch would consider seeking the Nightwatcher for absolution and forgiveness. Without that trip to the Valley, Roshar gets crushed by Odium because Dalinar would most certainly have been his Champion. And I’m sure you would agree the last place any sane person would ever want to be is facing Dalinar from across a battlefield. During the Apocalypse you would rather have Dalinar with you not against.
EvilMonkey@108:
“In the process he becomes a true General instead of a thug and a berserker”
He became a general after Gavilar sent him to Jah Keved. There he was learning how to lead for years (years without Evi), turning from bloodthirsty berserk into commanding general. He became more and more calm as he was growing older and eventually he reached it himself. Not Evi’s merit.
“10,000 non-combatants were going to die that day.”
No. Dalinar didn’t plan to kill non-combatants, he never killed civilians, women, children. He wanted to resolve Rift problem with his usual methods. Evi, who started pitying rebels and soldiers, asked Dalinar to find more peaceful solution. By doing so she triggered a chain of events: Dalinar agrees to find another option- Dalinar is betrayed and nearly killed – in a fit of rage he orders to burn the town, something he’d never do in normal circumstances being in his right mind. Without Evi’s pleas he’d never burn Rift. Without her only combatants would die. Without her civilians would live. Nothing Evi could have done or not done keeps the Rift from happening? She could prevent Rift massacre. It’s not a rocket science. All she had to do is sit quite and do not disturb Dalinar from doing his duties. Instead of doing so, she caused all the mess, died, and left broken Dalinar alone with guilt and grief. I see her decisions as selfish. Of course, she did it unintentionally, but it doesn’t change the result.
“Without that trip to the Valley, Roshar gets crushed by Odium because Dalinar would most certainly have been his Champion.”
Alternative history is hard to predict. I rather see Dalinar becoming a common Alethi Highprince without Evi. Without living through trauma he may not become Dalinar from “Way of Kings”, but he won’t become Odium’s Champion neither. If he could marry Navani, have children…I can see this.
@108 Or without the brutal example of Rathalas, Dalinar spends the next few years putting out fires for Gavilar until something else happens that kicks off a massacre anyways.
Truthfully Dalinar could have nipped the Rift in the bud a decade prior. All he had to do was murder a child in cold blood. Kinda hard to root for a guy like that right? Well I for one appreciate Evi for trying to bring out Dalinar’s more noble qualities. By the way, you do realize The Rift was a set up right? Odium has attempted to provoke Dalinar-inspired massacres for decades using Thrill manipulation.
So. Lemme ask this. Did you like the Blackthorn incarnation of Dalinar? The guy who almost murdered his brother in his battle lust? The guy who wished for the world to burn so he could forever slaughter? The guy who’s a shoo-in for Odium’s Champion? I liked that guy despite his murderous tendencies because there were seeds of what he becomes even during the worse times. Evi encourages Dalinar to emphasize the parts of his personality that I like about him. It made Dalinar uncomfortable, but that’s because his honorable behaviors run counter to Rayse’s plans. I much perfer the Dalinar we have now, a guy Evi would be proud of than the guy Odium wanted him to be. YMMV.
@107 lordruler
Evi didn’t want Dalinar to be a murder addict who had to constantly kill people to get high. You seem to think that she should have knitted him clothing and raised his children without ever daring to criticize or disagree with her husband. Alethi culture is vicious and deeply messed up, and she had the courage and honesty to tell Dalinar what she thought.
Dalinar murdered everyone in Rathalas because Dalinar was the kind of person who thought murdering an entire city because of its highprince’s treachery was okay. This is in no way Evi’s fault. There was nothing stopping Dalinar from storming Rathalas and killing its defenders; he decided to slaughter everyone because he was angry about being tricked and wanted to “send a message”.
@109 lordruler
Dalinar is responsible for burning Rathalas. “Being angry” is not an excuse for deciding to murder everyone. Blaming Evi for his decisions denies him agency, and it’s “victim blaming” in the worst sense of the word.
You’ve decided to blame the destruction of Rathalas on the person who did everything in her power to stop Rathalas from burning, rather than the man who actually burned the city. This is absurd.
@dp
That’s Odium’s M.O. right? Nothing is ever your fault. Let it all go. Give me your pain and so forth.
EvilMonkey@109:
“Did you like the Blackthorn incarnation of Dalinar?”
Yes. Why not? He did nothing wrong before the Rift. He’s, at least, honest. Unlike hypocrites like Amaram, Gavilar, Sadeas, who hide their awful deeds under “patriotism” and “greater good”, Dalinar has no illusions about himself. He knows who he is and doesn’t pretend to be a hero from storming legends. I appreciate this.
“The guy who almost murdered his brother in his battle lust?”
But he didn’t. Here is the thing: he didn’t kill his brother EVEN in the blood lust. He didn’t kill a child EVEN in the blood lust. Even being under the strong Thrill influence he questioned his actions, his murders. You’re absolutely right saying there always were seeds of what Dalinar eventually. I prefer Dalinar we have now too, but I’m thinking this Dalinar is the natural development of “Blackthorn Dalinar”. He’d become this man eventually. Don’t see Evi’s merit here. She only caused his greatest failure.
“The guy who wished for the world to burn so he could forever slaughter? “
And where did it come from? That isn’t in the book. There is no need to force him to be worse than he is.
dptullos@112:
“Evi didn’t want Dalinar to be a murder addict who had to constantly kill people to get high.”
He wasn’t this person for years before she visited him in war camps. He wasn’t this person for years before the Rift. He didn’t kill people to get high. He killed enemies during war. What, Evi didn’t like this war? Then she had to go to see Gavilar and ask his to stop it. What does this have to do with Dalinar? He isn’t an aggressor here, he’s a soldier. Gavilar started this war, so go and talk to him. What did she want to beat out from Dalinar? He was honest and honorable, he never caused massacre of the civilians, he always stopped looting. What else did she want him to do? Shave his head and join ardentia? Stop the war?
She is hypocritical too. She was seeking for a strong warrior, who can protect her from whoever was chasing her. She married a soldier and started blaming him for being a soldier. And what he’d suppose to do if people she was running away from finally find her? Or send their assassin? What would she say in such case? I’m sure she’d want Dalinar to kill them and protect her.
“he decided to slaughter everyone because he was angry about being tricked and wanted to “send a message”.
He would not being tricked if she didn’t ask him for negotiations with Rifters. Without her advices he’d resolve the problem without spilling too much blood.
“Dalinar is responsible for burning Rathalas.”
He is. She triggered the chain of events which lead to this decision. He made an order then he’s responsible. But he’d never make this order without Evi’s “useful” advices.
“the person who did everything in her power to stop Rathalas from burning”
What exactly did she do? Run away and die? What did she planned to do after she reached the city? Negotiation? What? I don’t understand. It’s not courage, it’s idiocy.
@102 Wetlandernw
The original quote you began to reference taken by itself is what caused me to think back that it was referring to the thrones of the bondsmith’s themselves. However, you make an excellent point as there is the other quote where it mentions that there were 10 thrones for each of the silver kingdoms so in all likelihood those are the thrones the bondsmith’s quote was referring to. Dalinar as the current bondsmith is leading the current cast of radiants (sans Skybreakers and Malata) so regardless who Phendorana bonds to, she would still be subordinate to someone. There also leads to the issue of if the windrunners did lead the radiants as their associated herald of kings led the heralds, then there would be the problem of too many chefs in the kitchen due to how quickly their order is booming in size. So I would lean towards the windrunners not leading the knights radiant on the whole, and are more along the lines of shock troops. Now I do not believe we can take the social standing of the individual human into account when we think in terms of spren hierarchy and bonding. The Cryptics are a prime example of this having expressed interest in Tien (a darkeyed from a backwater village), Shallan (a minor lighteyed from a lesser known Veden house), and King Elhokar (a lighteyed king of the Alethi). Brandon has also said scholars are not exclusively Elsecallers as a warrior who tends to think combat through logically could be found among their ranks, and we now have a Queen among their membership. I do find it interesting that when Kaladin informed Notum that he serves a bondsmith, Notum was surprised. Now it could be interpreted that Notum was surprised that Kaladin is subordinate to a bondsmith, but given his immediate next question was which bondsmith was Kaladin following, leads me to believe the surprise was not so much that Kaladin was subordinate but that there is a bondsmith once more at all. This is important enough to make him question the orders he carried out to detain Syl, which could lend credence that the “great spren” could be a “higher authority” to the other spren.
@114 He slaughtered his elites in a mindless bloodlust, not exactly nothing. While he eventually stops his troops from looting and raping, it implies that there was a time when he didn’t.
Dalinar seeks out war and battle because it gives him the opportunity to kill people under the thrill. Even in peacetime, he can’t stop getting high and crippling people in bar fights.
We don’t know what Dalinar would have done to Rathalas if he hadn’t gotten suckered into an ambush. There was a number of forces at play driving him to do more than just take the city.
Evi going to Rathalas might have accomplished something if Dalinar hadn’t had the messengers shot out of hand.
I think it’s fair to have an opinion on whether or not Evi’s decision was smart or would have actually accomplished anything, but I do NOT agree with the reasoning that it makes her somehow ‘responsible’ for Dalinar’s actions here, or that she was wrong to encourage his nobler qualities.
birgitte @104 – “The Thrill is an addiction like alcohol. Dalinar is susceptible to these addictions because he is unhappy that he cannot be with Navani. If he could marry her he might have less reason to distract himself with the Thrill and alcohol.” – I disagree with this, at least as far as the alcoholism analogy goes. Just because an alcoholic gets what they want doesn’t make them less an alcoholic, unless they decide to change (either due to being inspired by others or whatever reason they decide). I wouldn’t say that it’s impossible Navani would have inspired a similar change, but I don’t think it’s a sure thing, either.
noblehunter@116:
“Dalinar seeks out war and battle because it gives him the opportunity to kill people under the thrill.”
As I wrote, he grew more calm with age. He eventually stopped being this bloodthirsty berserk and become more of a commanding general. A honorable general, who didn’t kill without a need, who always found a way to stop massacre. Until Evi happened.
” While he eventually stops his troops from looting and raping, it implies that there was a time when he didn’t.”
He’s nineteen or twenty in the first flashback when he tells Sadeas to stop raping and looting. Nothing implies that he ever allowed it.
“We don’t know what Dalinar would have done to Rathalas”
I see no reason to assume he’d do more than take the city, kill it’s defenders if need, spare civilians, prevent looting. As he always did.
“Evi going to Rathalas might have accomplished something if Dalinar hadn’t had the messengers shot out of hand.”
Rifters caught her and took as a hostage. She was in prison when Rift was burning. Seems like negotiations failed huh? Not hard to guess what was in that message. She screwed Dalinar by all means.
@118 Who was encouraging him to minimize bloodshed? Not to mention he saw being a general as the price he had to pay to get the Thrill.
The only reason he stops Sadeas was because the archer asked him to. Which implies there would have been raping if not for the archer. If nothing else, it implies there was looting in the battles previous to that one.
This is a direct quote from OB, from when Dalinar had supposedly mellowed and became less bloodthirsty.
“He yearned for those early days, when their fights had been more rowdy, less coordinated. Well, he wasn’t a youth anymore, and he’d learned in Herdaz that he no longer had Gavilar to do the hard parts of this job. Dalinar had camps to supply, men to feed, and logistics to work out. This was almost as bad as being back in the city, listening to scribes talk about sewage disposal. Save for one difference: Out here, he had a reward. At the end of all the planning, the strategy, and the debates with generals, came the Thrill”
He’s still the murder addict he always was. His actions weren’t tempered by a lessened need for bloodshed but by duties related to warfare. He goes on to say he’s glad the conflict isn’t over as it gives him chances to indulge. To that Dalinar, a world of perpetual warfare would have been immensely attractive to him as it would have gave him a steady supply of people to kill.
As for the scene with Dalinar denying Sadeas his fun via looting, Sadeas’ reaction to the command is all the indication you need to realize such things were commonplace. There was an expectation of looting, to the point where Sadeas had already picked his spoils. I’m sure this isn’t the first time they rode together to war. If Dalinar never allowed looting then why is Sadeas picking out his evening entertainment?
I’m not trying to make out Dalinar to be worse than he was. The man was an absolute monster. He would tell you that himself. I approve of Evi’s efforts to try and temper him for it would have allowed his better qualities to shine. I would even go so far as to say Evi’s execution of her Ralthalas plan was flawed. But it looks like to me like any bad qualities the Blackthorn had back in the day, you just explain it away. Like I said before that’s Odium’s thing. He needed someone to tell him his actions were unacceptable, that he really started going overboard. Because yes he did stop himself. A couple times he stopped himself. But the Thrill was driving him to greater and greater acts of depravity.
@105: Thank you. I have always struggled with belonging and within the fantasy community, I seem to often have the diverging interpretation and/or the off-putting comment. I have wondered why it was the case and what was so different about me. Why can’t I read this book the same way as everyone else and why can’t I want the same things as everyone else?
For the rest, while I appreciate @lordruler taking the time to voice out his opinion on Evi, I disagree with it.
On average, I disagree with any attempts to victimize Dalinar and to rob him of his own agency. Saying Evi is responsible for both her own death and the Rift massacre is denying Dalinar the capacity to make his own decisions. Evi is not responsible for Tanalan’s betrayal and neither is she responsible for Dalinar’s uncontrollable anger. Hence, in the same way a woman wearing a mini skirt is not responsible for being raped, Evi is not responsible for what happens after she counsels Dalinar to try a pacific approach first.
Dalinar himself agrees he is responsible for his actions and refuses to take any bait trying to picture him as a victim of outside influence. He insists he always had a choice, he just made the wrong one.
I also believe Dalinar was always a berserker. As @116 mentioned, Dalinar did kill his own men because they stood too close to him. He wasn’t just a soldier, he was a hungry for blood, for fights… for the Thrill. Why he was this way, from the start? Why did he grow up to become this person? Hard to tell, but we do know the Alethi society deems a fight is approved by the Almighty as long as they are winning. Hence, every one of their wars was justified by religion…….. Hard to back down from this and to have a different viewpoint. I thus think Dalinar needed someone like Evi, someone who doesn’t believe in the Almighty to force him to view things in a different manner.
I agree with @117 Lisamarie. I do not believe Dalinar being with Navani would have removed his need for the Thrill. Part of his problem has been the incapacity to see he has, well, a problem until it is too late. Alethi ways provided him with endless battles to satiate his need to kill. Any day he spent appearing in control was one day he spent waiting for the next blood bath. Hence, sooner or later, an event of similar magnitude of the Rift would have happened.
I would however argue two elements played together to have Dalinar become a good general despite his need for a kill: he absence of Gavilar forcing him to step into this role and the presence of little Adolin constantly asking him “why?”. Dalinar mentions how it was Adolin who forced him to have decent answers to his every questions and his son inquisitive eyes are part of what help shape him into a general others were wiling to respect. Of course, wanting to be a man Evi would be proud of might have also played a role.
@107: When you say:
I think you are misplacing compassion. It isn’t Evi’s fault Dalinar decided to burn the Rift. He had the choice to just take over the city using conventional means. The fire weren’t necessary nor are they caused by Evi’s compassion. They were caused by Dalinar’s anger and wrath. To say had it not been for Evi, the event which triggered Dalinar’s anger would have never happened, hence he wouldn’t have lashed is the equivalent of saying: “it is the woman’s fault she was beaten, had she not forgotten to prepare the supper, her husband wouldn’t have been angry and thus wouldn’t have hit her”.
It is never a victim’s fault. The fault always falls on the one doing the aggression, it is not the other way around no matter how much the story wants us to believe Dalinar is a sweet, kind and amazing man. Truth is, he wasn’t always this way.
@109: You also say:
Might as well send the women back into the kitchen where they belong to avoid them from voicing out their opinion, now shouldn’t we? Or should we only allow people who agree with Dalinar, who are willing to blindly follow Dalinar to speak to him in order to avoid disturbing him? Poor Dalinar cannot stand to hear someone criticize him, the poor soul, he needs everyone to just quiet down and let him to craft his own plans without bothering to hear others thoughts.
Evi had the right to speak her thoughts. Evi had the right to her convictions. She had the right to petition Dalinar to try another approach. And among a full cast of characters, she stands as the one who was willing to go all the way for her convictions. She knew burning the Rift was a terrible, terrible idea. Everyone knew it was, but only she had the courage to say it to the Mighty Blackthorn.
Very few people have stood their ground against Dalinar. Evi was one of those people and I admire her for this. I admire anyone who refuses to blindly follow Dalinar as decisions should not be taken by only one person.
@119, 120:
Dalinar from this chapter (from your quote) is better than Dalinar from earlier chapters. In later flashbacks chapters he becomes even more better. He was constantly growing under himself.
Gepeto@121:
“Saying Evi is responsible for both her own death and the Rift massacre”
If I light a fire and warn my friend not to stick his stupid face into it but he’ll do it anyway ignoring all my warnings will I be responsible for his burnt eyebrows? Of course no.
Dalinar is responsible for the Rift as it was him who gave the orders. Without Evi he’d never do it. It’s a fact. I didn’t make it up myself. Take the story. Remove Eve. Result? No Rift.
“Hence, sooner or later, an event of similar magnitude of the Rift would have happened.”
Only your assumption.
” Evi is not responsible for what happens after she counsels Dalinar to try a pacific approach first.”
She’s responsible for being a total hypocrite who was seeking for a soldier strong enough to protect her only to bug him through years with complains on his soldier’s nature. She wanted a peaceful life? Marry a farmer then. She’s responsible for not understanding the meaning of war. There is no peaceful approach. Was she really that naive? What Dalinar planned to do with Rift is the best possible solution. Yes, someone would die. But this is how war is.She didn’t like this war? Go and speak to Gavilar then. If he would even listen. Dalinar had enough patience to listen her hysterics for years. Gavilar most likely would not be as patient.
“He wasn’t just a soldier, he was a hungry for blood, for fights… for the Thrill.”
And? How it change the result? Dalinar, who’s hungry for blood, kills enemies during battle, near him another soldier, who isn’t, also kills enemies during battle. The first one is a monster and the second one isn’t? Why? They’re both killers. Killing enemies is not an awful deed. I’ll say it again: Dalinar stopped being hungry for blood when he reached the certain age.
“no matter how much the story wants us to believe Dalinar is a sweet, kind and amazing man.”
The story wants me to believe that Evi is the best thing ever. Beautiful innocent flower who saved Dalinar’s dirty soul. But if I open my eyes and view this story adequately, I’ll see that all the mess happened because of this flower. Her refusal to accept the truth about this world (people die at war) caused even greater violence. Dalinar wanted to do his best. He didn’t want to spill the blood of innocents. I must believe that a mere soldier/general on his duties is a bad person and a stupid person, who lives in a private fantasy world of unicorns and butterflies is an amazing shine of light in this dirty world of warmongers? I won’t.
“Might as well send the women back into the kitchen where they belong to avoid them from voicing out their opinion, now shouldn’t we?”
As long as they have something useful to say they can voice their opinion whenever they want to. Doesn’t Dalinar listen Jasnah or Navani? That is help. Stubborn pitying of enemy soldiers is idiocy. Idiocy which almost costed Dalinar’s life and did cost lives of the civilians.The road to hell is paved with good intentions.
LR, I just told someone else on the forum that differing opinions are important and a spice to the discussions we have. So I do appreciate your opinions regarding Evi. However I think this is one of those times where it becomes necessary to agree to disagree. Nothing you have said has swayed my opinion about her and my thoughts and that of other like minded posters have obviously had no influence on your own opinion. Others may engage you on this topic but I for one am done.
We’ll have all this discussion in context as we proceed through the flashbacks and get to know Evi and Young!Dalinar in more leisurely depth. For now… yes, I think “agree to disagree” is the best option.
I am definitely in the camp of loving Evi. I also enjoy reading opposing views, but to say she wasn’t supportive of Dalinar just isn’t agreeing with how I read their relationship. It overlooks the fact that her brother set up her marriage (he was the one they negotiated with for her hand, not her), and it absolves Dalinar of the responsibility to understand her culture. Why should she deny who she is and become someone she is not? Dalinar agreed to marry her knowing she was a foreigner and had different views; they had a long engagement.
The real life analogy for me here is when people date for years, live together, complain constantly about their partner’s flaws, then for some reason get married and are shocked when they are unhappy. I always think, “You knew exactly who you were marrying!” Dalinar and Evi BOTH knew exactly who they were marrying. We see them BOTH working on the relationship in these flashbacks, with Evi working hard to become more like the traditional Alethi wives and with Dalinar trying to be a better man, the man we know he one day becomes. Personally, I find her death tragic and would not say she caused it at all. After Dalinar expresses his love for her by attempting negotiations that failed miserably, she knew Dalinar would regret murdering the town and made the choice that she thought would spare its civilians. The fact that it backfired is nothing but heartbreaking to me; she was trying to show her love to Dalinar and to spare him later pain.
It will be interesting to discuss this when we get to that awful chapter.