Hello, rereaders! Alice and I hope you’ve got your burn gel handy for this chapter. In the purple corner… Jaaaaaaaaaaasnah Khoooooooooolin! Princess of Alethkar, scholar extraordinaire, and badass supreme, ready to take on any and all challengers! And in the blue corner, the brooding bridgeboy, the hero of the Shattered Plains, the protector of the innocent and overall good guy Kaladiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiin Stoooooooormblessed! Thursday Thursday Thursday, don’t miss all the fun as these two Knights Radiant go toe to toe in a battle of the burns that will be sung of throughout the ages!
And what’s this? A mysterious letter revealing secrets about Shallan’s family? Read on to find out more!
Reminder: we’ll potentially be discussing spoilers for the ENTIRE NOVEL in each reread. As in the past few installments, we’ll be discussing some broader Cosmere information in regards to the epigraph, but nothing hugely spoiler-y. However, if you haven’t read ALL of Oathbringer, best to wait to join us until you’re done.
Chapter Recap
WHO: Shallan
WHERE: Urithiru: basement; her quarters, Sebarial’s barracks
WHEN: 1174.1.7.1 (Two days after Dalinar’s vision, and eight days after Shallan’s last appearance)
Chapter 39 begins with a meeting. Dalinar, Jasnah, Navani, Kaladin, Shallan, and Renarin have all gathered to discuss the Voidbringers and what should be done. Kaladin insists that the common parshmen are just as much victims as anyone else, and Jasnah heartily disagrees. They move on to debate who should go with Kaladin and Elhokar on their expedition to liberate Kholinar. Jasnah suggests that they’re thinking too small—they need to find the Heralds. And kill them, in order to restore the oathpact and banish the Fused back to whence they came. Dalinar thankfully smacks this idea down and sets a plan to find them for more information instead. Jasnah chides Shallan for being distracted, and when Shallan returns to her room she finds the promised information from the Ghostbloods—information about her dead brother.
In chapter 40, we learn that Helaran was a Skybreaker. They believe he was sent to eliminate Amaram. The letter also gives some exposition regarding the motives of the Sons of Honor and the Skybreakers. Shallan heads off as Veil and meets up with Gaz and the rest of her “squires,” who are enjoying a game. However, her visit is interrupted by a spy—Ishnah, the woman from earlier who had been so keen to work for the Ghostbloods. Veil gives her a charge—to train her squires to be spies.
The Singing Storm
Titles: Notes; Questions, Peeks, and Inferences
A: “Notes” comes from a couple of things. Obviously, Jasnah asks Shallan to take notes, which she does—badly (and also “doodles” an impressive sketch…)—and the topic becomes a bit contentious. Then the chapter ends with discovery of the note from Mraize.
“Questions, Peeks, and Inferences” comes from the description of the game Shallan’s men are playing, but it really defines the whole chapter.
Heralds: Battar, Nale; Nale, Shalash
A: Battar, patron of Elsecallers, could easily grace Chapter 39 just for Jasnah’s key role in the chapter. However, her role as Scholar and her attributes of Wisdom and Caring are very relevant as well. The group is trying to figure out the wisest course of action, and we see caring reflected both in Jasnah’s concern for the defense of humanity… and, oddly enough, in Kaladin’s concern for the ordinary parshman. Nale, patron of Skybreakers, Judge, Just/Confident, most likely represents the attempt to be fair to both sides while not doing anything stupid, and maybe Dalinar’s continual mediation between Jasnah and Kaladin. Come to think of it, he might also represent Jasnah’s evaluation of Shallan’s situation.
For Chapter 40, though, I think Nale clearly represents the Skybreakers first of all. Could he also, in some sense, represent all of the secret organizations, just because the Skybreakers are one of the four we know about? Shalash pretty easily maps to Shallan’s Lightweaving, as she dons her Veil disguise to escape from the Shallan issues.
Icon: Pattern
Epigraph
No good can come of two Shards settling in one location. It was agreed that we would not interfere with one another, and it disappoints me that so few of the Shards have kept to this original agreement.
As for Uli Da, it was obvious from the outset that she was going to be a problem. Good riddance.
A: Well, then! Somehow, I get the feeling that Edgli doesn’t think highly of … well, anyone besides herself?
She phrases this as though there had been a formal agreement among the Vessels, but we’ve already talked about how that doesn’t seem to fit with the Stormfather’s statement that “spren and gods cannot break their oaths.” I see a couple of possibilities here: the obvious one is that the agreement she references was made before they took up the Shards, and so did not bind them by nature. This theory has a few permutations, of course, given that we don’t know just how long it takes the Intent of the Shard to permeate the personality and abilities of the Vessel.
There’s also the possibility that the Stormfather, accustomed as he is to Honor, doesn’t actually understand the rest of the Shards at all; perhaps most of them would be able to break an agreement with impunity. And of course, if the wording of the agreement was actually “not to interfere with one another,” any Shards who joined forces expecting to cooperate could interpret that as within the meaning of the terms.
Then, of course, there’s “Uli Da” who is promptly dismissed as a problem, and best out of the way. (Harsh, lady!) We know three things about Uli Da, as far as I can recall: She was of the Sho Del, she held the Shard Ambition, and she’s dead. The Sho Del were one of the three sapient species on Yolen; the other two are dragons and humans.
L: For the non-Cosmere-scholars among our readers, which book does this relate to?
A: Heh. It mostly doesn’t, yet! The Sho Del info and almost everything else about Yolen is from Dragonsteel, which a few fans have read in its larval form at the BYU library, and the rest of us have to wait to see.
L: (So don’t feel bad if this is the first you’ve ever heard of this.)
A: For what it’s worth, we don’t know if Uli Da was the only non-human Vessel, though she may have been. She was attacked near the Threnodite system; while her final Shattering took place elsewhere, the power released in the battle had massive effects on Threnody and the rest of the system. Presumably, the attack and the final blow were both Odium’s doing. Unlike the Sho Del thing, this part is from Arcanum Unbounded.
Stories & Songs
“Looking over what you discovered, it seems that all parshmen can bond with ordinary spren as part of their natural life cycle. What we’ve been calling ‘Voidbringers’ are instead a combination of a parshman with some kind of hostile spren or spirit.”
A: I really liked this insight. It helps to remember that the ordinary parshmen are… just ordinary parshmen, despite their species’s ability to adopt different forms for different purposes. The real baddies, the Voidbringers, are the Fused, and they really are bad. They’re crazed, and they take over the bodies of the ordinary parshmen. Maybe this will be part of the final solution—when the parsh decide that they’re tired of being used as disposable tools to fight a war that’s millenia past. I mean, it would make me mad to think that some crazy spirit can just kick me out of my body, use it up, and throw it away.
Buy the Book
Skyward
“The Stormfather has found Kholinar to be a ‘dark spot’ to him.”
L: Was this ever explained in the end of the book? I forget.
A: I… don’t think so. I assume it’s due to the presence of Ashertmarn, or maybe the number of the Fused there, but I don’t remember anything more than that. Readers? Help us out, here?
Relationships & Romances
Shallan glanced at him. There was something about that wavy dark hair, that grim expression. Always serious, always solemn—and so tense. Like he had to be strict with himself to contain his passion.
L: And so it begins. I know a lot of people really detest love triangles, but I think they can be done very well provided the interest on the parties’ parts is realistic and engaging and not simply “Oooh he’s so dreeeaaaaamy!” However, I also recognize that this particular trope has been played out nearly to death, and a lot of readers are sick and tired of seeing it. And speaking of…
Shallan paused, looking at the doodle she’d been doing. Actually, it was more complex than a doodle. It was… kind of a full sketch of Kaladin’s face, with passionate eyes and a determined expression.
L: So uh, maybe there’s a bit of “he’s so dreamy” going on here after all.
A: Ya think? Heh. I’m one of those people who loathe love triangles, but I was mostly okay with this one. Mostly—primarily because by the end of the book, it was pretty clear that the Veil persona was the one sighing over Kaladin, and the one I think of as “the real Shallan” was still in love with Adolin. This chapter disturbs that angle a bit, though, because she’s very much Shallan while she’s doing this drawing. Is it “Veil in the back of her mind”? Or is Shallan herself actually attracted to him?
L: I think it’s perfectly natural for a young woman to be attracted to more than one person. Jasnah berates her for “wandering eyes,” but as long as she’s not acting on those impulses, I don’t see an issue with admiring someone else aesthetically. Then again, I’m also coming from a much different place from most teenagers, being in a long term stable marriage in which my husband and I don’t get jealous when we admire handsome/beautiful people. I may be an outlier here…
A: It’s totally natural. Is it wise to allow herself to indulge in the attraction? Maybe not so much, and I think that’s Jasnah’s concern. All we know about Alethi wedding oaths is that Dalinar’s and Navani’s is not the traditional version, but Alethi marriage convention seems to be specifically monogamous in intent. I think the problem Jasnah sees with the drawing is that, given the evidence, Shallan doesn’t seem to be merely “admiring the aesthetics.” At a clear-thinking 34, Jasnah is probably enough a student of human nature to doubt the ability of a 17-year-old girl to draw a solid distinction between aesthetic beauty and physical attraction, and the last thing she wants for Adolin is a fiance/wife who isn’t committed to him. Along with her personal love for her cousin, I’d bet Jasnah is considering the implications for the princedom, the nation, and the war effort if Adolin is either undermined or distracted by a faithless wife, and she wants to make sure that doesn’t happen—now, while it would still be relatively easy to stop. (Come to think of it, we haven’t been told what promises are involved in a causal betrothal, have we? That could be part of what’s happening too.)
Jasnah had turned down every suitor for her hand, including some very attractive and influential men. People wondered. Was she perhaps simply not interested?
L: Asexual, or just so focused on her career and studies that she doesn’t have time to pursue romance? I wonder.
A: Gotta be careful here. Brandon said that Jasnah wouldn’t be best pleased by people speculating about her love life…
L: I was about to say “I can speculate all I want, she ain’t gonna hop over to Earth to smack me down” but then I realized… wait… I may be safe, but Lyn isn’t… ::yikes::
A: You just watch yourself, young scout/squire. She can take you down.
Personally, I think there are a couple of different things going on. She may be asexual. She may be traumatized by past experience to the point that she would actively avoid romance. Primarily, I think that for the last 6 or 7 years, she’s been so focused on the hints of a coming Desolation that she’s not the slightest bit interested in distracting herself from that study.
Next to Jasnah, Shallan felt pale, stupid, and completely lacking in curves. What would it be like, to be so confident? So beautiful, yet so unconstrained, all at once? Surely, Jasnah Kholin had far fewer problems in life than Shallan. At the very least, she created far fewer for herself than Shallan did.
A: This is one of the passages that make me believe that Shallan’s perspective on Jasnah is not a matter of attraction, so much as it is sheer envy. It’s a teenage girl looking at a beautiful, confident woman twice her own age, and feeling totally lame and worthless by comparison. I think it reveals something about Shallan’s shaky state of mind, though, that she’s reverted to comparison. Not so long ago, she was able to view Jasnah as someone to emulate; that whole thing with “power is an illusion of perception” was something she aspired to, and it helped her to be more. Now instead of seeking to be more, she accepts being less.
Bruised & Broken
Oh, Shallan…
She’d settled against the tile-covered wall, sitting on the floor in her blue havah, and had intended to spend the meeting doing sketches.
A: Shallan’s state of mind is pretty dodgy these days. As Jasnah points out later, she’s been actively avoiding the things she should be doing as a Knight Radiant: she skips meetings, barely pays attention while she’s there, slips out early. How much of this is that she resents returning to her role as “Jasnah’s dutiful ward” instead of being the “lead Radiant” that she’d been before Kaladin and Jasnah showed up? Is that what’s going on? Or is it that the pressure of being Miss Responsible Radiant is too much for her, as we saw happening several times in Part One?
He had killed Helaran, her brother. The emotion of that peeked out, but Shallan smothered it, stuffing it into the back of her mind. Kaladin wasn’t to be blamed for that. He’d just been defending his brightlord.
L: I have to admit, this surprised me the first time I read it. I hadn’t expected her to accept the reality of this situation quite so easily. Let’s face it, up until now Shallan has been shockingly naive and childish about a lot of things, and this is very much a trope that fantasy readers are familiar with—the misunderstanding between two people that festers and festers until it eventually explodes at a climactic moment. The fact that Sanderson subverted this trope and at the same time gave Shallan this moment of maturity was masterfully done, in my opinion.
A: I just keep worrying that this will come back to haunt us. Was it maturity, or was it a justification for stuffing it? It’s pretty easy to find a rationalization and then pretend that everything is okay, so that you can shove the painful things back down instead of facing them.
Shallan nodded. She wasn’t working with the Ghostbloods. That was Veil.
L: ::wince:: Oh, Shallan, you are wading deeper and deeper into the waters of mental instability, here.
Veil was enjoying her mug of beer more than she’d expected. It was refreshing to sit here with these men and not have to worry about all Shallan’s problems. Couldn’t that girl just relax? Let it all blow past her?
A: Deeper and deeper…
L: During the game, there’s a moment where “Veil” slips into Shallan briefly that I found interesting. When the cards are revealed, Shallan comes out and calls them all correctly. It’s the only time that Shallan peeks through the Veil facade, and I’m curious as to why.
Diagrams & Dastardly Designs
The following letter explains the truth about your deceased brother. Nan Helaran, acolyte of the Radiant order of the Skybreakers.
L: Say whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaat?
“…the sons of honor explicitly worked for the return of the Desolations. They believed that only the Voidbringers would cause the Heralds to show themselves—and they believed that a Desolation would restore both the Knights Radiant and the classical strength of the Vorin church.
L: Well, there’s a whole slew of questions answered in two neat little sentences.
A: The answers make me angry, even while they’re a very… Vorin approach to life. The idea of explicitly trying to start a world-wide conflict as a means for a small handful of people to gain religious power is revolting. I guess it’s been long enough since the Desolations that maybe they don’t comprehend what effect such a war would have on the world, but I still find it repulsive.
From our spying upon the Skybreakers, we have records showing the only member of Amaram’s army to have bonded a spren was long since eliminated.
L: I’ve seen theories that this mysterious proto-Radiant was actually Tien, and I rather like them.
A: ::sniff:: Yes, I agree.
“Secrets,” Pattern said. “There are lies in this letter.”
L: Okay, so… we can’t trust this completely, can we? What might the lies have been, do you think?
A: Pattern is so stinking cryptic sometimes! I can never tell whether he’s talking about actual lies, or something in the language that he finds clever. And does he consider it a lie when something is not true, but the person speaking doesn’t know it’s not true?
I did wonder about something, though. Mraize claims that Shallan’s mother was connected to a Skybreaker, and that the Skybreakers thought Helaran was the family member who was close to bonding a spren. Does that mean that neither the Skybreakers nor the Ghostbloods know that Shallan was already bonded to Pattern back then? Did the whole thing with them trying to kill Shallan, and her killing them instead, all happen in one fell swoop, so that the truth never got back to the Skybreaker organization?
Well, whether that’s what Pattern meant or not, I’m pretty sure Mraize wouldn’t even consider telling Shallan the whole truth! So there are definitely more secrets to learn, and I wouldn’t be at all surprised if some of what he said is a direct lie.
Squires & Sidekicks
“You think you could be a Knight Radiant, Gaz?”
“No. No, I guess I don’t.”
L: Which, by my estimation, means you’re absolutely destined to become one.
A: Definitely. At least a squire. Except… I’m half expecting Gaz to do another Bluth or Elhokar—Brandon will make me like what he could become, and then he’ll die in the process of trying to become that man. I’d like one to actually succeed.
Tight Butts and Coconuts
“In short, everyone who might have been able to help us is crazy, dead, a traitor, or some combination of the three.” He folded his arms. “Figures.”
L: Oh, I adore him.
“If you wish, Captain,” Jasnah snapped, “I can get you some mink kits to cuddle while the adults plan. None of us want to talk about this, but that does not make it any less inevitable.”
“I’d love that,” Kaladin responded. “In turn, I’ll get you some eels to cuddle. You’ll feel right at home.”
L: ::ahem::
Buy the Book
The Ruin of Kings
“If it’s not a lowly task,” Shallan said, “then perhaps you should have done it.”
L: This chapter is full of burns and I am here for it.
A: Jasnah, Shallan, and Kaladin all scored a fair number of points here. It was fun.
Pieces was one of those games that the Vorin church grudgingly allowed, as it involved no randomization. … Vathah had arranged nine of his pieces in a triangle shape; the tenth one he set to the side and flipped over as the seed. It, like the hidden nine, was marked with the symbol of one of the Alethi princedoms. In this case, the seed was Aladar’s symbol, in the form of a chull. The goal was to arrange your ten pieces in a pattern identical to his, even though they were facedown. You’d guess which were which through a series of questions, peeks, and inferences. You could force the mink to reveal pieces just to you, or to everyone, based on certain other rules. In the end, someone called and everyone flipped over their pieces. The one with the most matches to the mink’s pattern was declared winner, and claimed the pot. The mink got a percentage, based on certain factors, such as the number of turns it took before someone called.
A: This sounds familiar, but I can’t quite identify it. The questions, peeks, and inferences is a lot like Clue, but I think there’s another game I should be recognizing. Oh well.
L: There’s a game where you have to match cards up that this is reminding me of—I remember it most strongly from one of the old Mario games (Super Mario 3, I believe) where you had to find the two matching cards and remember where they were from previous rounds.
“That’s a little like saying you want me to teach hogs to talk—with promises it will be easy, as they only need to speak Alethi, not Veden or Herdazian.” … “All right. We’ll see. Just don’t blame me if the pigs don’t end up talking.”
A: This cracked me up. Poor Ishnah! (sort of…)
Weighty Words
“If we can be certain of one thing, it is the morality of defending our homeland. I don’t ask you to go to war idly, but I will ask you to protect.”
L: I really love how Dalinar worded this. He knows full well what Kaladin’s oaths were.
“I’ll do what is right, regardless of my feelings, sir.”
L: Atta boy, Kaladin.
A: He even acknowledges that his feelings may be a non-issue with respect to Elhokar, which is… well, it’s not nothing.
“Radiant, yes,” Jasnah said. “Full? Where’s your armor?”
A: Ouch. That’s gotta burn.
L: Yeah, Jasnah’s savage.
Appealing/Arresting/Appraising/Absorbing Artwork
A: Lyn, you’re the fashion expert around here! All I can say is, “Oooo, pretty!!” Do you have anything more cogent to say?
L: Do I ever. Are you sure you want to open this door, because I could probably go on about this for like… a month.
A: I stand by my question!
L: Okay, you asked for it. I love that the text on the bottom of this is talking about how the fashion elites in Liafor are influencing Alethi fashion by making subtle changes to the traditional havah—it’s a fascinating concept, thinking about how one culture can attempt to force fashion changes onto another by indirect, subtle means.
If you didn’t follow my cosplay series of articles or don’t remember, the havah is an Alethi dress that is tight-fitting in the bust and hips and flares out in the skirts. It’s typically described as having buttons up the side and the left sleeve longer than the right, which generally buttons up to hide the safe-hand. In Dan Dos Santos’s art here, we see in the main drawing what appears to be a traditional havah. It looks a little more militaristic than some designs I’ve seen cosplayers favor, with the flap more closely resembling a civil war frock coat than the Asian style some people choose to go with. This fits with the Alethi preoccupation with war, however. It would make sense that even the women’s outfits would reflect society’s predisposition towards martial arts. The model is also sporting the hair pins that Navani and Jasnah are often described as wearing, though if memory serves, Navani’s are shaped like little Shardblades, which is just so storming cool.
A: Those hairspikes are one of the only things that make me consider growing my hair long again. They sound so beautiful—way prettier than sticking a pencil through a messy bun, like I did in college. Without actually researching it, I’m betting that Navani and Jasnah both have quite a collection—but like you, I love Navani’s miniature Shardblades.
L: So the first drawing in the little circle in the top left is just this same outfit, but not on a model. The second one down is more interesting, with exposed pleated skirts and a matching pleated safe-hand sleeve. It also has a beautiful criss-cross folded design to the bodice, which I rather like. It looks a bit like kimono, bringing back in that little bit of Asian flair.
The final and bottom design is far more daring and removed from the traditional havah. This is something that I would expect to see on Scadrial in the second era, not here on Roshar! The only element of the original design remaining is the safe-hand sleeve—the full skirts have been replaced with more of a tight-fitting pencil skirt, and the bodice with a fetching little jacket. It looks very 1950s to me. I wouldn’t be in the least bit surprised to see Marasi or Steris wearing something similar!
Also, aside from the fashion itself, I simply adore everything about this artwork. From the dark palette of color with just a splash of gold for accent to the dignified pose of the (gorgeous) model to the little Rosharan flora chilling out in the bottom left, everything about this art is stunning. No wonder Adolin likes looking at them so much, if they’re all like this!
Quality Quotations
“Perhaps,” Jasnah said, “you should visit my uncle’s vision and see for yourself the consequences of a soft heart.”
L: Dude, Jasnah coming in with another sick burn here. I love that Kaladin didn’t let her get under his skin, though.
A: I’m torn about the visions comment, though. In a way, I’d like to have seen Kaladin do exactly this, but at the same time I’m glad Brandon didn’t overuse the idea. Limiting it to highstorms really helped to keep it contained.
L: I don’t want Kaladin to visit the visions. It would hurt him too much to get attached to these people and be unable to save them. Poor little cinnamon roll.
“I can’t afford to stay my hand from war,” Dalinar said. “Everything you say is right, but it’s also nothing new. I have never gone to battle where some poor fools on either side—men who didn’t want to be there in the first place—weren’t going to bear the brunt of the pain.”
A: There’s something to be said for single combat as a solution.
“Listen, brightness…”
L: I’m getting some real shades of Han Solo, here. “Listen up, princess…”
“Around her, I do act more like a child. It’s like part of me wants to let her take care of everything. And I hate, hate, hate that about myself.”
“Is there a solution?”
“I don’t know.”
“Perhaps … act like an adult?”
A: Tssssss… Even Pattern gets in on the burn.
L: You get a burn! And YOU get a burn! EVERYONE GETS A BURN!
Well then. Let’s talk more about it in the comments, okay? Be sure to join us again next week for Chapters 41 and 42, with another Bridge Four chapter, and yet another trip to Aharietiam.
Alice has nearly survived her daughter’s excursion through driver’s training, possibly even with sanity intact. Also, the Skyward signing tour is starting to come together—and it includes a Seattle stop!
Lyndsey finally got her photos back of her Star Lord cosplay, and she’s over the moon with how they turned out. Check them out on her Facebook page, and stay tuned as she applies to the Avengers Initiative, a charity organization which sends cosplayers into children’s hospitals.
The game as described mostly reminds me of Mastermind, in which one player has 4 colored tokens arranged behind a screen and the other player has to try to match the pattern by guessing and receiving certain information from each guess based on how close it is.
YES!! That’s it exactly! Thank you; now my brain can let go of that…. It’s been a long time since I played Mastermind. I should try it again.
I’m starting to wonder if multiple personalities might an issue for ALL Lightweavers. That’s why they have to speak truths instead of making oaths. If you get confused about who you really are you just refer back to the truths. Like: “I think I’m Veil and I’ve always been Veil and I made up the Shallan identity. Let me check my truth – I killed my parents – okay that was something the Shallan persona did- so that’s got to be my real identity.”
Also love the ironic foreshadowing of the Dalinar quote.
“If we can be certain of one thing, it is the morality of defending our homeland.
Team Dragonsteel could get some money out of me by making a playable version of Questions, Peeks, and Inferences. Rothfuss already has my Tak money.
That artwork was the real casuality of the first printing. It was way too dark in the book.
Before I read the reread article, I just want to say THANK YOU to Alice and Lyn for doing both chapters 39 and 40 this week. I reread them last night, and no way I could stop after 39 with it ending on that ghostblood letter.
I love chapter 39 for showing tons of nuance and all the range of emotions war brings to the table. Nothing about this conflict, nor real world conflict is black and white and sadly all too frequently the innocents pay the cost. No character in this scene is truly wrong, nor truly right. Kaladin makes excellent points about innocents suffering, and wanting to find a new solution. Jasnah makes excellent points about the severity of their dire situation, and how all possibilities must be explored as there will be no second chances. Finally Dalinar makes excellent points on being willing to reach out, but also being realistic about battle. Just as every character has their points and good sides, to show realism, every character shows their negative sides. Kaladin prevents further discourse by shutting down all ideas. He just wants everyone to get along, yet cannot seem to provide any real ideas or means to accomplish this. Jasnah conversely is needlessly aggressive in pushing solutions. True the world is ending, and there is a time limit, but it is far-fetched to expect a group to solve everything in one meeting. Dalinar the leader of the meeting, lets it get carried away and lose focus. But again, just as we see the negatives of our cast, Brandon brings it back around and shows them (even if begrudging) seek to work together. Dalinar calms the heated emotions between Kaladin and Jasnah. Jasnah backs down, and comes up with a plan that can satisfy both parties of scouting the enemy for more information. Kaladin realizes the merit of that suggestion, agrees to it, and confirms he will do what is ultimately necessary. This tumultuous first meeting I feel is a great sign of big things to come as these three learn to work together and accomplish great things. As Shallan starts to confront her fracturing mental state, she too will become an integral part.
edit: regarding the game, my first thought personally was Guess Who. I have never heard of Mastermind before, and now must look into it! :)
Reminds me of old maid.
Congratulations! But wouldn’t that imply you were sane to start…
toothlessjoe @3: I completely agree on the purpose of truths for a Lightweaver—to combat the very real danger of losing yourself.
@9 – and the burns continue…. Speaking of which, everyone should go to the 17th Shard and check out this link: http://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/71333-tournament-cosmere-character-roast-battles/?page=20#comment-744322
There are some pretty epic roasts so far, and is certainly thematic
bad_platypus @@@@@ 9 – Fair point. Also, BURN… :D
Love the burns this week. So much fun to see Kaladin and Jasnah finally together onscreen. I really liked them together. I wants more now.
The letter- love how for every answer we get there are more questions. And for Pattern to see the lies-is he remembering from when Shallan was young now? He might have learned/overheard things that young Shallan wouldn’t have found significant at the time.
I would also pay money to have the guessing game. My kids would love it, and I would win all the time (because they’re small still). It does sound like Mastermind. Haven’t played that in ages.
Otherwise: congrats on survival and probable sanity to Alice. Lyn-don’t do anything to jeopardize the future of our favorite scout/squire! We love her (and you) too much.
Shallan always dealt with her problems by “forgetting” about them. That she does the same with Kaladin killing her brother isn’t really a good sign.
The game they play is similar to Memory (that’s the German name. In English it seems to be called Pairs). I also played SuperHirn (Mastermind) as a kid, it’s more like Schiffe versenken (Battleship).
The game made me think of Concentration.
I’m with @13 here. Shallan was Not Thinking About Kaladin the way she Does Not Think About her other problems. I do not see this ending well.
Did Amaram or any of his crew know Helaran by sight? I don’t remember if we have solid proof that it was Helaran that Kaladin killed, and not someone who had the same coloring? And asking you all is waaaay quicker than me researching it. Thanks!
Brandon revealed in a WoB that Tien was a budding Lightweaver. I think the letter almost assuredly refers to him. The Lightweavers seem to have a high mortality rate…
This is a very – VERY – minor quibble. But I do find it a teensy bit unfair that the fans lucky enough to live in Provo, UT. get to be a bit more advanced in their Cosmere knowledge than the rest of us.
A much larger quibble: this is first part of the book I wanted to reach in and shake Shallan around a bit. Forgetting your problems is not dealing with them.
Gaz @18 – If it’s any consolation, I understand it’s very difficult to get access to the Dragonsteel manuscript these days. I’m also told it’s not really very good, compared to his current writing. :) We can tell ourselves these things, anyway…
@several – For what it’s worth, the more I think about it, the more it feels like Shallan’s rationalization about Kaladin & Helaran is another case of her refusing to think about painful things. There are times it needs to happen until you can process it, sort of, but… well, basically, Shallan doesn’t have a good record on these things. So I’m more inclined to think it’s further dissociation rather than maturing. This, despite the fact that it’s true – Kaladin was defending his Brightlord (who he still thought was honorable at that point) against someone who would most certainly have killed him. There was no way Amaram should have survived that encounter, and Helaran should have achieved whatever his purpose was.
As to whether it was really Helaran, as far as I know, we don’t have 100% confirmation. The only time I can find someone asking the direct question was back in 2015, when the answer was RAFO. It seems that most people take Mraize’s confirmation here as adequate proof.
@16 Calypso
Back in WoR, Shallan recognized Amaram’s shardblade as the one Helaran had.
It seems like it could be pretty convoluted at this point for it not to be Helaran that Kaladin killed. The least convoluted scenario that I can think of for it not to be is if the man Lin Davar sent to kill his son was actually a member of the Ghostbloods and actually did succeed, and didn’t report back to Lin Davar because the Ghostbloods thought it would be the perfect opportunity to frame the Skybreakers for killing Amaram. Lately I just go for the simple solution that it was Helaran, but the situation has a bunch of weirdness surrounding it. I can’t tell if it was just the author leaving potential outs in case he decided to change what happened in a later book, or if it is truly weird and something more is going on. Kaladin never sees the Shardbearer’s face, though Amaram’s crew thinks he was Veden (perhaps he had red hair).
Alice and Lyndsey. I believe that a lot of Shallan’s issues in these chapters (but no all the issues) is the pressure of being a leading Knight Radiant. She fears that people no longer see her as a back-water, 17 year old, minor noble; they see her as the person who single handedly saved the armies from the Everstorm and Highstorm and finding Urithiru. That is a lot for anybody to live up to; let alone, a 17 year old.
Finally, I got something correct. After WoR, I said I thought that Shall will not turn on Kaladin for murdering Helaran. She will come to realize that Kaladin was defending those who could not and that Kaladin at fault. Exactly as I predicted.
Lyndsey: My theory on why Shallan’s true self came out a bit in Chapter 40: Veil is a persona of Shallan. At the core, it is still Shallan. Shallan likes those type of puzzle-like things so Shallan let her true self have some fun.
I do not think the Ghostbloods knew (or even had an inkling) that Shallan was a KR/bonded a spren. I think Mraize was honest in WoR when he said he did not realize that Shallan was a KR (or as Mraize tells Shallan, Veil is the real KR).
Scath @7. Excellent analysis of Kaladin, Jasnah and Dalinar’s positions during the conference. I side with Jasnah. I am a proponent of the ends justify the means, especially during a Desolation (and Roshar is in the beginning of a new Desolation). From what we have seen so far in SA, Jasnah also believes in the ends justify the means (as the theory was first articulated by Machiavelli in “The Prince”). I actually think the political philosophy the ends justify the means are a key tenant of the Elsecaller KR. Nevertheless, there are other valid points Kaladin and Dalinar raises. I do have one problem with Kaladin’s belief. While ordinary Singers may simply be “ordinary” as Alice notes, I believe that as long as the Singers are capable of serving as a host to the Fused or Regals (even if against their will), they all should be viewed as enemy combatants. Ultimately, I do agree that Kaladin’s position is too soft for current situation.
Thanks for reading my musings.
AndrewHB
aka the musespren
Re: Shallan’s drawing of Kaladin – What do you want to bet that her drawings of him will become plot points in future volumes – that she’ll be more able to Lightweave-up fake “Bridge Boys” in some battle or spy mission or other?
Re: Gaz (the squire, not our own Gaz #16 ;-) – Totally agree with you Alice; I’d like to see this redemption succeed.
Re: “mink” – That would be a lion, no? And do you think there are clues to Rosharan social history in this game, as there seemed to be in the freed parshmen’s card game?
@12 Joyspren, “for every answer we get there are more questions” – Sounds like Kelsier, eh? :-)
@16 Calypso & others – In WoR, we learned that Shallan recognized Amaram’s Shardblade as the one her brother had had, and that Kaladin recognized it as the one Amaram stole from him. Is that proof that it was Helaran that Kaladin killed?
Thanks as always Alice & Lyndsey!
I enjoy Shallan’s puzzled musings on Jasnah’s combination of many “masculine” and “feminine” interests. Jasnah does whatever she wants, regardless of whether or not it’s considered appropriate for a woman, and has the aristocratic ability to get away with it. That’s enviable indeed.
The mink-eel exchange pleasantly reminded me of Kaladin and Shallan’s epic snark-off at first sight. It’s a bit unusual for a woman to accuse a man of being foolishly softhearted, or a man to accuse a woman of ruthless cruelty. Not unheard-of, though.
Uh, Shallan, I don’t think Kaladin is tense and somber because he’s trying to “control his passion.” He’s depressed and afraid. Though I suppose those aren’t mutually exclusive. I’m usually tense and sober from anxiety and depression, but suppressed passions sometimes contribute to those. Dark, brooding, passionate…hm, that’s how Scorpios tend to be viewed. Maybe Kaladin is a Scorpio, like me. :-p (Joking. Roshar’s astrology would of course be different from ours if it existed).
That said, I can’t see facial expressions, so I can’t claim to understand his. Or her version of it. What the storm are “passionate eyes”?
Something is odd with the comments, I cannot seem to be able to read them…
So… One discussion element I have often come across was how some readers felt Helaran’s death hasn’t been dealt for and will come back to haunt Shallan. Readers have argued Shallan has suppressed this knowledge and is refusing to deal with it. I disagree because of this chapter and this quote. My impressions are Shallan did deal with the information, she did decide Kaladin was not to blame and while it remains a sore topic, I do not expect more to come out of it. As far as I concerned, I consider this, a done deal.
Love triangles now… I do not hate them. I do believe they can add wonderful tension is used adequately. They unfortunately tend to generate highly polarized discussion which can rapidly escalate. When more than one person is sharing the same opinion, then it is super fun, when it is everyone against one person, it is not fun at all.
So, my thoughts, what does it mean for Shallan to draw the Kaladin doddle? I think it merely means she is curious. She does have a curiosity when it comes to Kaladin. He is intriguing, she is intrigued, but by the end of the book, she realizes there never was anything more. My
My interpretation of the Veil/Radiant personas are they are a by-product of her lightweaving: when she becomes them, it isn’t purely physical, it also is mental. She thinks like them or like she believes they would think and while Shallan is “always there”, the food heist chapter shows how easily she loses control of those lightweaved personas. Hence, at this point in time, I don’t think Veil has anything to do with Shallan’s drawing, but I do think Veil has everything to do with the later self-admit crush on brooding Kaladin. In the end, I however believe the narrative is telling us neither Veil nor Radiant are Shallan and the only opinion which matters is Shallan’s. It is clear to me she chose Adolin because she loved him and wanted to genuinely be with him whereas whatever else she might have thought of Kaladin, it wasn’t love nor anything equivalent to what she feels for Adolin. So when comes the time to chose, it is Adolin she refuses to lose.
Do I think the love triangle is over? Yes. Brandon isn’t the kind of author to prolonged a narrative arc for no valid purpose and romance isn’t his strongest suit. So while our love birds will sure have their own hardships to overcome, I do think they will do it as a married couple.
Now… Jasnah. Argh. This chapter is the one which made me doubt her capacity to be Queen. I sincerely do not believe she has enough empathy to be a balanced leader. I do think this is her major flaw and I do hope she see her fail in this regards. I’ll admit in part because her character did come across as a bit over-powered here at the end, so a dose of humility would do wonder, IMHO.
Ah and Shallan. I commented a few weeks back on her immaturity, her running away. Wouldn’t life be easier if she always were Veil? Care-free Veil who doesn’t have to worry about future, about wining her life, about money, about responsibilities. Veil who does what she wants when she wants it… Veil who’s totally not plausible as everyone has responsibilities and complete freedom is an illusion. I so hate Veil. I understand why she is attractive to Shallan, but I still hate her.
The beginning of this chapter, where Shallan thinks she is feeling better and better, but less and less like herself since the fight with the Midnight Mother, worries me. Did something happen to her when she touched the Midnight Mother that is making her different personas split apart from Shallan? when exactly did she start to think of her ersonas as separate people?
@13 birgit
Agree that Shallan not dealing with her feelings about Kaladin killing Helaran is a very bad thing. She rationalizes what happened, but she never allows herself to feel anything about it.
@16 Calypso
Lin Davar sent someone to kill Helaran months before his supposed death. Shallan and her brothers were unable to locate Helaran after that. Lin then told them that Helaran had been gotten himself killed on a battlefield. So someone reported to Lin Davar that it was Helaran.
There is no sign that Amaram ever knew who Helaran was. A few hours after the Shardbearer was killed, Amaram was able to press the magic I-am-bonding-the-Shardblade gem button on the sword, so the Shardbearer was definitely dead (the Shardbearer isn’t shown calling or dismissing the sword while fighting– it doesn’t even mist out and then reappear when he is killed– so is remotely possible he wasn’t bonded to it).
There just seems to me to be all these little weird things about this situation that makes me not want to take it at face value, even though I’ve decided to until evidence proves it wasn’t Helaran. It’s just weird.
Re Gaz and squiredom: Wasn’t there a short Gaz POV in WoK where Gaz complains of seeing shadowy things from the corner of his missing eye? it sounded suspiciously like Elhokar’s complaints to Kaladin in WoR. This would have been way before Shallan showed up on the Shattered Plains.
Semi-ditto to Gepeto. I currently can’t see or post comments on my phone, only my computer.
I don’t think Shallan “forgetting” that Kaladin killed Helaran will lead to a conflict between them later, but it is still bad because it is the old coping mechanism she has to overcome as a Lightweaver who accepts hard truths to avoid losing herself in all her lies/personas.
All orders share the first ideal, Jasnah can’t just ignore it and become another Taravangian.
Same problem with the comments. Had to clear my browser cache to get my comments back. Anyway, Jasnah does come off as super harsh here. I’m willing to give her some slack though; she’s the only one of the group that had anything to add from a planning perspective. Kaladin had nothing besides shooting down suggestions, Shallan’s drawing in a corner not paying attention, Renarin is withdrawn and Dalinar’s role is as facilitator and he’s unpracticed at it. Also, Jasnah is Alethi. Typical of Alethi she has a very aggressive nature. That aggression will serve her well in her new role as queen. Empathy and compassion may work in some kingdoms. The Alethi would eat someone like that alive. Look no further than what life as Alethi royalty did to Evi. Wrangling highprinces who aren’t sure they even want to be a part of a kingdom unless they are on top of the pyramid will take an aggressive person, and being a woman and a heratic means she already has 2 strikes against her in the minds of many. But I’m biased. I actually like Jasnah.
@several – I would absolutely believe it was Helaran who came after Amaram (and honestly I think that’s probably true), but there’s another possibility. It’s about four and a half years from the time when Shallan sees Helaran with the Shardblade to the time Kaladin kills the person who was carrying that Blade. Given the way the Skybreakers work, it’s possible that in those years, Helaran became a bonded Skybreaker, in which case his Shards would be returned to the order and assigned to someone else to use. The biggest argument against this is that the guy who attacked Amaram was Veden, and I don’t know that it’s super likely that the same Blade would be given to another Veden candidate right off the bat, but it’s certainly a possibility. If that’s the case, Szeth will probably meet him soon.
Gepeto @25 – “Do I think the love triangle is over? Yes. Brandon isn’t the kind of author to prolonged a narrative arc for no valid purpose and romance isn’t his strongest suit. So while our love birds will sure have their own hardships to overcome, I do think they will do it as a married couple.” I agree. That’s one reason I’m okay with this particular triangle – I feel it was resolved for all three of them in very final ways. (Also, I may be in the minority on this, but another reason it worked for me was Shallan’s multiple personalities, with Veil being the one that wanted Kaladin and the real Shallan still in love with Adolin.)
nightheron @26 – Well, thanks for nothing! “Did something happen to her when she touched the Midnight Mother that is making her different personas split apart from Shallan?” That’s … kind of a horrible possibility, in a way. Good suggestion, though.
@25 – The Veil persona is even more frustrating when I consider how it originated – as a disguise for Shallan’s sneaking and espionage, not unlike Jason Bourne having multiple identities and passports in his Swiss deposit box. I really enjoyed the scenes of Shallan spying around, gathering intel, mixing it up with other secret groups. It was a nice change of pace from the military / political parts of WoR.
Then she had to go and ruin it by wanting to become Veil, and using the persona as an escape instead of facing the reality of her situation. Sigh….
@AeronaGreyjoy 24
As someone who can see facial expressions, I still have no idea what “passionate eyes” entails unless his pupils literally turned until heart (upside down butt) shapes. (Or stars a la Steven Universe.)
The comments work on Explorer but not on Chrome. I guess this is as EvilMonkey said and it is a cache issue.
On Helaran, I seem to have a different reading of the scene than other readers. I did not feel Shallan was forgetting it, I think Shallan merely chose not to further push down this path. She rationalized it isn’t Kaladin’s fault, she can’t blame him and Helaran has been dead for years. So why rehearse old pains needlessly? Confront Kaladin? To which end? She already acknowledge he isn’t to blame. Hence, I am not reading this particular plot element as Shallan not wanting to deal with yet another event, more like her agreeing there is nothing to deal with. I didn’t read anything negative in her reaction and I felt Brandon had this quote for the specific purpose of showing us: yes, Shallan dealt with it, no, it will not be a problem. Case close.
@29: See. from my perspective, Jasnah’s character is lacking depth, complexity and flaws.
She is the smartest woman on Roshar, she is unparalleled as a researcher, it appears she has practical knowledge of warfare too, she can yield a Blade without having had any training we could see, her powers are so amazingly powerful she kills Fused without blinking an eye while Kaladin has to work really hard to achieve the same. Her only flaw is her complete lack of empathy, but most readers are arguing this isn’t an issue because she showed empathy, once, to Renarin, hence she can learn to become more emphatic.
Hence, where are her flaws if her one flaw isn’t really one? I said I felt Jasnah lacked depth, complexity and flaws, but do I believe this is really the case? No. Why would one character be so magnificently perfect she would have no downfall, no flaws which matters, no weak points? None of Brandon’s character lack flaws, so when Jasnah is being presented as the epitome of perfection, I looked away to see where the picture perfect image is about to crack.
So far, what I have found is this chapter where Jasnah showed her ruthlessness and it was hinted how far down this road she is ready to go. So while Kaladin wasn’t offering any valid suggestions nor alternatives, Jasnah still showed she would kill her way through those she perceives as her enemies without bothering trying to figure out if they really are her enemies.
Therefore, I think this is her flaw and if I am right, then it will come into play now she is Queen. Of course, most readers have disagreed with me on this matter, but I need to re-emphasis one of my points: Jasnah’s character WILL have flaws and downfalls. She will not remain perfect at all times. Apart from a lack of empathy, her other downfalls could be arrogance and the inability to listen to others and/or how condescending she can be to those she considers less intelligent. She also seems to think her wits cannot fail.
This is not a matter of myself disliking Jasnah, I actually rather liked her chapters in OB, more a matter of myself trying to find a more complete angle to look at Jasnah.
@30: I know some readers are convinced the love triangle is not over, believing Veil is the real Shallan and her feelings are Shallan’s real feelings she has suppressed. Some are believing Shallan chose Adolin not because she loved him, but because he was safe (though I read none of this within the narrative, I would argue Adolin was lesser choice here). I personally do not see why Brandon would have gone through the trouble of making Shallan marry Adolin just to break them apart and then write a romance with Kaladin. SA isn’t a YA romance novel where such plot twists would readily happen, so I do not see it happening.
Also, one popular interpretation of the love triangle, back in the time, were it was a mimicry from something which happened in the past (comes from a WoB). Most readers thought Brandon was referring to the Dalinar/Navani/Gavilar love triangle where, of course, Kaladin was Shallan’s Dalinar, her one true love.
After finishing up OB the second time, I started believing the readers got it wrong from the start. Kaladin never was Shallan’s Dalinar, he was her Gavilar. The superior choice, another Radiant, someone she shares something with, someone with super-powers, like her. Both Veil and Radians are arguing, at the end, a union with Kaladin would be preferable because of his status as a Radiant. Adolin? Why bother with him. He might be Highprince, but it means nothing now. Being the Highprince of a fallen princedom means nothing and he isn’t a Radiant. Hence, I ended up feeling Adolin was the Dalinar, the lesser choice and also, coincidentally, the one who once faced with seeing his beloved eye another man he deems superior in every way, bows down.
Adolin, just like his father before him, walked out and wanted to let Kaladin have Shallan, just like Dalinar did with Gavilar. That’s the mimicry, but it resolves differently because Shallan, not being Navani, chose with her heart, not her head.
My two cents anyway. I know many will disagree, but I rather like this.
@31: Veil is frustrating to me because she has no purpose in life. If Veil were real, she would need to earn a living, she would need to take on contracts to put food on the table, she wouldn’t have the luxury to always do what she wants when she wants. She would be afraid of being found out, she would have enemies: she would be two-dimensional. Unfortunately, because she isn’t real and a product of Shallan’s mind, she is one-dimensional.
If at first Veil was created for spying purpose, in this chapter, she becomes Shallan’s escapism. She doesn’t want to complete her assignment? Let’s become Veil and go out to have a few drinks with the man. And Veil later becomes more and more powerful to the point where she constantly bashes on Shallan.
Honestly, I never wanted someone to be put back into her place more than Veil.
@@@@@16 Calypso
I do not believe there is absolute proof, as in Shallan seeing the body and confirming it, but all evidence does seem to point in that direction. The closest we have to WoB on it is this RAFO shown below
https://wob.coppermind.net/events/105-17th-shard-forum-qa/#e1257
@@@@@17 Austin
LOL, didn’t think of it that way before, good point. Well if they are like scientists then every experiment has a chance to fail, and you just try try try again lol.
@@@@@18 Gaz
I do not live in Provo, UT, and I find the Arcanum on the 17th Shard helps miles with Cosmere knowledge. I whole heartily suggest you dive in :)
@@@@@21 nightheron
I agree, sometimes the butler really did do it.
@@@@@ 22 AndrewHB
I agree on all points.
Thank you :). There is a WoB that states how Machiavelli would find a home in the skybreakers and elsecallers, as well as a WoB about the Elsecallers that supports Jasnah view on the war. I have included them below.
https://wob.coppermind.net/events/35-arcanum-unbounded-hoboken-signing/#e2525
https://wob.coppermind.net/events/35-arcanum-unbounded-hoboken-signing/#e4163
That is the crux of the issue isn’t it? How can you negotiate with someone, who one day could be favorable to you, but then the next day, become someone completely different who utterly hates and despises you? Much like what happened when Eshonai tried to talk to Dalinar. One moment she wanted peace, next moment, war. And that situation wasn’t even including the fused! Now it is even worse!
@@@@@23 aggie1
I personally lean towards the theory I have read that thinks Gaz has not become a squire yet, because he is already a nascent radiant lightweaver himself. That would be the darkness he keeps feeling in the corner of his missing eye. Or at least that is what the theory states, and I personally agree.
Mink isn’t only a lion. Dalinar sees what could be a ferret in the vents in one of the rooms, and refers to it as a mink or mink-like. So in this case, it could be an actual furry cuddly mink.
The recognized shardblade is not explicit proof, but it is evidence in favor.
@@@@@24 AeronaGreenjoy
That is very true, Jasnah does come from a place of privilege. But she uses that privilege to try to help break those cultural and societal structures instead of maintaining them. She seeks to give everyone the choice and power she holds so they can be who they want to be. Lol as to passionate eyes, I googled an image search, and quite a few results came up. Hopefully that helps.
@@@@@26 nightheron
I would have to check, but I think the splits begin very slightly near the end of WoR, and more so at the beginning of Oathbringer, still prior to her interaction with the Night Mother. Though if I am incorrect about WoR, it could even be the Night Mother’s felt influence in the tower that begins to set her off, though she had not met the Night Mother yet.
The earlier WoB I posted states that Amaram did find out who he killed. The only thing is we do not know if who he found out was in fact Helaran. All evidence seems to point that way, but nothing absolutely unequivocally sure.
https://wob.coppermind.net/events/105-17th-shard-forum-qa/#e1257
Ah yes, like I said earlier in this post, I agree and think that it is a sign that Gaz is on his way to becoming a lightweaver autonomously from Shallan. I think it would be really cool to watch how Vathah becomes a lightweaver from a squire, while Gaz would go directly and see the differences between the two.
@@@@@28 birgit
The first oath is a lot more open to interpretation than we are led to believe by Teft. Jasnah is not ignoring the first ideal, she just sees it differently than Kaladin. I have posted the pertinent WoB earlier in my post, but I will post it here too for your reference.
https://wob.coppermind.net/events/35-arcanum-unbounded-hoboken-signing/#e4163
@@@@@29 EvilMonkey
I think part of it is Jasnah has also had to learn to be more forceful or aggressive to stand up and defend her beliefs. I love how Sanderson gives hints and tidbits of her growth throughout the novel. Most people in the novel see the emotionless, and brutal woman, but we get to see there is doubt, self reflection, and a desire to be better. At least 4 to 5 times throughout the novel, Jasnah learns from her mistakes, and does do better. Can’t wait to see her rule :)
@@@@@32 soursavior
LOL
I hate the Fused so much for how they distort the situation with the Parsh. Without them, there could be a very interesting story of navigating the aftermath of their slavery and liberation. But given that the Parsh are being led by genocidal maniacs, there’s a rather more pressing issue to be dealt with first. Dealing with it could very well be ugly even if Venli can renew the Parshendi.
@35 noblehunter
I think we, the readers, are meant to hate them for that reason. How frequently in our own world, do we let prejudices and the past prevent peace? The fused I feel are a physical manifestation of that. They are a continual reminder of past hurts and transgressions trying to prevent progress and understanding. The fused are literally the parshendi’s heritage holding them back. But it does also make me wonder, what happened that drove those singers to seek such an extreme form of retaliation? And can such a inciting incident ever be looked past, when the original aggrieved are very much alive, and very much present to shape events. Sometimes for progress to happen, the past really does have to die, both literally and figuratively.
@35 noblehunter
Without the Fused, most humans would either genocide the parshmen or enslave them again. The Alethi and Vedans are perfectly all right with human slavery; why would they give up a free labor force just because the parshmen can talk?
I make an exception for the Azish, who would probably solve the entire problem through an extensive series of petitions and essays. I know their society is flawed, as all societies are flawed, but I admire their dedication to paperwork.
@36 Are any of the Fused sane enough to even try to move forward? Regardless of what humans did when they were voidbringers.
@37 The value of enslaved parshmen came from their docility. While there would be some people wanting to re-enslave all of them, it would prove very impractical. They won’t give up their labor force because they can talk; they’ll give it up because the Parsh can fight. Sorting out how the economy will function without parshmen slaves is one of the interesting questions.
@37 dptullos
It could be said tangentally, that without the presence of the “parshendi gods”, i.e. the fused, Gavilar wouldn’t have tried to bring them back, which is what led the parshendi to assassinating him. So potentially the parshendi could have continued as they were, made treaties with other lands, and began an underground railroad of sorts for the parshmen, while researching how to restore their connection. Now that is looking at the situation through very rose tinted glasses as there would have been nothing stopping Gavilar from simply conquoring and enslaving them as well, but my point was more to indicate the negative effect the fused have on the whole situation
@38 noblehunter
I think there are some sane enough to do so. For instance the individual who talked to Moash. She was coherent and capable of conversation. There were others that also spoke to Venli. I think it was the fused that died more often than the others, that began to lose their minds due to the continual returns. Problem is unfortunately even the “intelligent” ones seem to be very against any accommodation and actually get upset at even the idea of any unity with the humans (see the instance where Odium threatens a fused for not liking to work potentially with Dalinar).
That is an excellent point. The parshmen far outnumber the humans. If just their connection was restored, they could still halt all production, as well as destroy the human’s economies just by saying “no” nonetheless actual combat. Would be interesting to see a parshmen ghandi step up and organize something like that.
@39 I’m not sure being able to hold a conversation means they’re capable of abandoning their kill them all plans. Although there’s a lot of misdirection going on with the Fused, Odium, and parshmen so perhaps I should be cautious.
@40 noblehunter
I just had a thought. If an Unmade Sja-anat could potentially (as we do not know if she is truly genuine or not) look beyond the kill them all plans, and her very existence is tied to Odium, then I think the fused could too. Now how likely that is, I cannot say, but I am very curious to see how Venli progresses and deals with the fused in face of this deep seated opposition.
@38 noblehunter
I agree that re-enslaving all of the parshmen would be impractical. Genocide was always the more likely option for the Alethi and Vedans.
If parshmen aren’t useful tools, then they’re dangerous animals. Without the Fused, the Alethi would be committing genocide against the “Voidbringers” right now. This makes negotiation more or less impossible; of course their former masters want them to turn against Odium, but if they don’t have the Fused, then the humans will have the power to do whatever they want.
@39 scath
I don’t think Gavilar was interested in more conquest. He wanted to build a lasting kingdom, not to go off and fight for an empire that would collapse the moment he died.
I don’t know if parshmen actually outnumber humans, but they could certainly destroy human economies by going on strike. The Azish response to this is supremely civilized, as they negotiate with their former slaves and try to work out mutually agreeable terms. The Thaylens would probably talk it out, too. The Alethi response would be mass murder.
@40 noblehunter
The Fused that Venli speaks with is upset that some of his own kin want to enslave some humans instead of killing them all. They’re capable of differences of opinion, though all of their opinions are bad for humans.
@42 That’s a very depressing view of the Alethi. Without the fused, Alethkar would still be under the control of Elhokar and Dalinar. Do you see Dalinar signing off on genocide once it became clear the parshmen had turned into ordinary people rather than lightning throwing monsters?
ETA: @41 Sja-anat has spent the last four millennia with some level of distance from Odium, the Fused haven’t. Give the Fused something to watch besides the 24/7 Odium channel for a few thousand years and they might become more flexible, too.
@42 dptullos
Hmmm, well there are a whole lot of different factors and this is all basically one giant “what if” scenario, but I think it is a fun thought experiment, so why not? So I think we can break it down into two scenarios. Scenario 1 is where the parshendi gods not only do not come up, but there isn’t a mass awakening of the parshmen from the everstorm. Scenario 2 is where the parshendi gods do not come up, but there is a mass awakening of the parshmen. So let’s see how they could play out
Scenario 1
You agreed that at that point Gavilar was not interesting in further conquest, just consolidating what he currently had. So we could assume at that point the parshendi could continue as they were. They having seen their parshmen brethren being enslaved, they could attempt various political and societal ventures. The first and greatest obstacle would be the lack of sapience. If the parshendi could learn how to restore the parshmen’s sapience individually, they could argue that as sapient entities, they are entitled to rights. Now the Alethi possessing slaves of their own people would put a kink in that line of thinking. The parshendi could form an underground railround. The problem with this is if discovered, it could lead to war. The parshendi could lobby for equal rights with other lands, like you suggest with the Azir and Thayla first. Then when such rights are established, and trade flourishes, international pressure could be put on the Alethi.
Scenario 2
I would have to check, but I believe it is stated that the parshmen does outnumber not just the Alethi population, but the populations across all of Roshar combined. Depending on how the parshmen act after their awakening, it could go either very bloody, or potentially very peacefully. The Alethi can be as warlike as they want, but when their entire economic and social structure gets upended over night, they will need to figure out something other than the point of a sword. It was commented in Urithiru at the beginning of Oathbringer about how something as simple as transporting water became a issue due to social standing without parshmen to do it. Jasnah commented on how utterly entwined and dependent Rosharan society had become on the parshmen. These are all issues that came up regarding slavery during the Civil War, and that was just a section of North America. Now expand this to the entire known world. Alethi committing mass murder in this situation would be like literally shooting themselves in the foot. It would not end well for them at all.
A differing of opinion, even if its all negative, still offers the possibility of a positive one lol.
@43 noblehunter
True true. Maybe that is Venli’s purpose? To offer another channel at an accelerated rate?
“her attributes of Wisdom and Caring” – Alice and Lyndsey, you have stated this in the previous re-read segments as well, IIRC, but that’s wrong isn’t it? Battar’s attributes are Wisdom and Carefulness, which means something rather different. That doesn’t mean that the Elsecallers can’t be caring too, in their cool, logical way, of course.
I suspect that Stormfather’s perspective on whether spren can break oaths is limited too, between corruption of the Oathgate spren, which allowed them to do things formerly forbidden “by the parent”, spren susceptibility to torture as revealed by Notum and Sja-Anat’s desire to change sides, provided that it is genuine.
Shallan and Helaran – I suspect that she did suppress her reaction to the news – after all, she instantly hated Amaram for supposedly killing her brother, even though his story was that he did it in self-defense and Helaran was clearly the over-powered agressor. That was before she learned anything else incriminating about Amaram. There should be little difference between his justification and Kaladin’s, so the difference in her reactions is not entirely plausible as the natural closure of the matter.
I do think that what we learned about Helaran is intriguing and contradictory – like, is it possible that he really had no suspicions about Shallan? After all, Mr. T for some reason theorised in WoR that he may have been the one to initiate Shallan into Radianthood and giving her initial training! Isn’t it odd that otherwise pretenaturally well-informed Diagrammists could have been so wrong about a budding Skybreaker’s reaction to a surge-binder sibling? And yet, Helaran clearly hated their father and considered him their mother’s murderer… But OTOH, his not returning home to check on things from time to time may have been in part to protect Shallan. Anyway, I am sure that Szeth was prmoted far more quickly than an “acolyte” normally would be, so it makes sense that Heleran would have been running errands for the Skybreakers without being promoted to squireship for some time, so as to prove himself worthy. Or do their squires also handle dead shardblades? IIRC, we never saw one’s reaction to touching one and it is possible that the effects are far more muted for them.
Gaz the Lightweaver? Eh… I want more artistic people in that order!
Gepeto @33:
Can’t agree more with you about the triangle and Veil. But those are fighting words about my girl Jasnah!
@43 noblehunter
Dalinar is one man, and he’s at the Shattered Plains. He can’t possibly control every soldier and peasant mob in Alethkar. The Alethi cheerfully murder runaway slaves when the slaves are human; how do you think they’re going to respond to runaway slaves of another species, especially when they match the description of “Voidbringers”?
Authority and law are social fictions. Test them hard enough, and they break.
Any Fused who openly expresses doubts about the party line would be dead. As Odium said at the end of Oathbringer, his power is all that gives them enduring life.
@42 dptullos: I agree with you fully that the Alethi and Vedens would simply try to massacre the Parshmen to solve any slave uprising. What happened with Kaladin shows how the Alethi deal with slaves who attempt freedom. His multiple escape attempts and armed rebellions ended each time with all the slaves dead except him. He earned a shash brand for refusing to be a good little slave and trying to save the slaves around him. Dangerous, indeed.
@46 Yet Kaladin’s sojourn through Alethkar shows nothing of the sort happening. Everyone seemed more focused on rebuilding than chasing runaways. There’s enough confusion that it’s unlikely there’d be widespread lynching before Dalinar could exert control.
Sure, Dalinar’s authority is limited. Would you want to be the one to see how far the Blackthorn would go to preserve his authority?
@47 nightheron
I think the Alethi and Vedens are probably the worst cultures on Roshar. Their whole religion glorifies murder, so their bloodthirsty tendencies have the blessing of the Almighty.
On the bright side, we do have the Azish. Their parshmen send a formal complaint, and the government tries to negotiate acceptable terms.
@48 noblehunter
People are distracted by the need to rebuild. Once they recovered, they would promptly hunt down and murder their escaped slaves. That’s what happened to Kaladin’s group, and they were all humans.
Dalinar cannot possibly exert control over a very large country, including princedoms that actively despise him, such as Sadeas’s lands. The escaped parshmen are slaves under Alethi law, and law and custom are both clear about what happens to runaway slaves. Ialai Sadeas isn’t going to let her property get away because the “insane” and “heretical” Highprince Kholin tells her to.
@49 He might not be able to protect all the Parshmen but he could keep it well short of genocide, especially when the Windrunners take a side.
I wasn’t even aware that people were questioning the entire Helaran thing. I thought it was pretty straightforward.
I really hope the ASK triangle is dead. It resolved rather perfectly for me and to revisit that plot line would likely be awkward, harsh, and frankly like trying to force a square peg into a round hole. Imo there are other ways to introduce conflict in these characters.
I think part of the reason people don’t connect with Jasnah much is because from the outside she is absolutely dominant. She has her fears and doubts but she never allows them to show. It’s intimidating because she is so excellent in everything we see her attempt. A scholar, a forceful personality, a devastating fighter who dominates a battlefield, a cold, remorseless killer. She is a woman who walks, talks and acts as though she is the baddest mf’er on the planet. Her family and those she trust serve to humanize her. Shallan humanizes her. Kaladin seems to be one that could burrow into her gooey center if one secretive smile in a meeting is any indication (Kal is a lot like Old Dalinar the Bondsmith although even the Old Dalinar doesn’t hesitate). But we don’t really spend much time in her head, most of our POV’s come from an ousider perspective and that stone wall is hard to get past. Reread her scene with Amaram and tell me she isn’t the epitome of awesome.
@45 Isilel
I cannot speak for Alice and Lyn, but if they did anything like I did, then it is because I took a shortcut, and looked up the ideals on the stormlight wiki. Under Battar it says Wisdom and Care, full stop. Link below for reference
http://stormlightarchive.wikia.com/wiki/Battar
Now WoK, WoR, and Oathbringer’s Ars Arcanum all say as you put Careful. Now we could go back and forth about the meaning of the word. I could say how being careful is defined as having a concern for something (as per merriam-webster dictionary). How you can be careful with your children so they are not hurt. But that is not the point. The point is as you eloquently put, is the ideal is not caring nor care, it is careful. That was a mistake I made when I mentioned it, and you are right to point it out. It is an error to make statements or judgements on something without properly checking what you are writing. Unfortunately links tend to slow down posting, as well as research, but I have been endeavouring to make sure before I post I have not only checked what I am referring to, but I also include the reference for others to check for themselves. I think it will benefit greatly in spreading knowledge and further enrich the novels. Thank you.
@46 dptullos
I do not think that any fused that oppose Odium necessarily can only expect death. Based on what we see in novels from other worlds, as well as Sja-anat and the Heralds, I believe there could be a way for the fused to exist, and still prevent Odium from removing the investiture. They would need to figure it out, true, but I think there is a possibility for it.
@48 noblehunter
But is Dalinar the Blackthorn at that point? By the time of the parshendi discovery, Dalinar was avoiding battles so as not to experience Evi again.
@50 noblehunter
I think at this point I am getting confused. Are we treating as if the fused are a thing in this scenario, or not? Is Dalinar a radiant at this point or not?
@45: If my memory serves me right, while Shallan does start by hating Amaram for having killed Helaran, she rapidly rationalized he had merely killed an enemy soldier. Hence, if my recollection of WoR is correct, Shallan proceeds to not blame a man she hates for her brother’s death or if she blames him, she also understands they were enemy soldiers facing each other on a battlefield. Therefore, here hating on Kaladin, a man she likes, for a deed she comes not to trouble herself too much over, when she thought he man she hated did it, wouldn’t work out. I thus do not think she is repressing anything. Seems to me she has merely dealt with it. Not every event with Shallan has to be repressed she did deal with some stuff, just not the stuff.
On Jasnah, I know a lot of readers love her characters, but it always seems to me she has literally no flaw as each time another reader tries to point one out, others vehemently disagree. Therefore, coming from someone who loves Jasnah, what are her flaws? Her weaknesses? And where will she fail? Do readers who love the character truly believe she is the smartest woman in the known world? This is such a bold statement as there is no such thing as a universally smart individual: you can gifted in one area, but you will not be gifted in all areas. I often pointed out how Jasnah’s cold logic could become a flaw if she were ever put in a position of absolute leadership, but it seems a majority disagrees with me.
@51: I thought it was pretty straight-forward too, but about two years ago, theories of him not really being the man Kaladin killed started to form themselves. Readers are always out there trying to find out the next plot twist. My position on this one is I doubt the man Kaladin killed isn’t Helaran. So while there might be a possibility for this man not to be Helaran without contradicting the existing canon, I do think it wouldn’t be a pleasant plot twist shall Brandon want to go there. Brandon has already used all of his brownie points to bring back presumed dead characters. I don’t see him pulling it on a character as meaningless and unimportant as Helaran no matter how Shallan feels about him.
I agree with your depiction as to why some readers struggle to get pass Jasnah’s wall. I personally felt OB helped humanizing her, but at the same time, it presented her as a flawless over-powered character and if she does have fears, none of them are preventing her from being the top dog in absolutely every field we see her tackle including where she should have deferred to more experienced and knowledgeable people. Speaking of which, by the end of OB, I noticed how people started to automatically defer to the Radiants as if they getting powers meant they knew about leadership, battles and military tactics. This was particularly grating when Renarin is ask to take command, despite himself, by people just believing he ought to know what they should do because of his status. While Renarin and the other Radiants aren’t to blame for this, I saw a dangerous precedent. Being a Radiant doesn’t supersede actual tangible military experience and those who leads the battle shouldn’t necessarily be the Radiants: most of them have no idea how to even do this, but it seems the fact they have powers, they will lead. It bothered me.
So on Jasnah, ah, she needs a flaw. A solid flaw. I have started seeing posts asking if she isn’t too over-powered. One even used the word “Mary Sue” which I disagree with, but like another character, the absence of struggle and visible flaw is preventing her character from growing in the eyes of some readers. Hopefully next book will solve this.
I however have to disagree with you how Jasnah treated Amaram. I do believe she made a mistake here and she was wrong. Now, we the readers, we hate Amaram, because of what he did to Kaladin, but really, he hasn’t done anything worst than a certain Dalinar Kholin. Therefore, for Jasnah to turn away a peaceful offer to work together, solve their different, for the good of Alethkar because “she hates the man” was poor leadership and misplaced. I get it, she hates him. Everyone hates him, but let’s walk into Amaram’s shoes for a while…. What is he seeing? That he did nothing worst than Dalinar (he knows about the Rift), but he is to be treated as a pariah. He tries to make amend by being a good player, but the Kholins won’t give him a chance. Not a single one.
Amaram is in the wrong most of the time but in this specific case, if I had been him, I would have been mad with rage. Who are they, those Kholins, to pass judgment on me when the blood on their hands is so thick they can never wash it away?
Of course, this is another matter where most will disagree with me.
@51 I agree that her #Burns were epic there, as I’m sure will be discussed when we get there, but Jasnah herself would say it was not the epitome of awesome. She recognized that as clever or witty she was, she did not handle the situation the right way.
@54 I agree with you overall about Jasnah. I like her, but she does come across as OP many times. I would say, though, that the seeds of her flaw are already there and I will discuss my theory in more detail when we get the right chapter (there is one later from her perspective). Also, her hatred from Amaram isn’t solely (or even mostly) from the rift with Dalinar or the treatment of Kaladin or any of that. She and him have a history and that is where her dislike comes from.
To be fair, many of our views of Jasnah come from Shallan’s POV and Shallan absolutely idolozes the woman. We hear Jasnah is beautiful, Jasnah is smart, Jasnah is nearly never wrong, Jasnah can do no wrong, all this comes from Shallan. In the limited times we peek into Jasnah’s head we see her insecurities and doubts, her cares and compassion. We see her berate herself for a many number of things. But she is Alethi and even before her rise to queen she was a person of power. Those who show weakness are eaten alive in the Alethi court.
I wouldn’t say her flaws are insignificant. She is logical and ruthless so the Taravanginan route will always be in play for her. She has obviously been hurt in the past so trust don’t come easy for her, a successful survival mechanism in her environment but potentially harmful moving forward. Lastly she is much more inclined to brute force solutions even when subtlety may be required. Imo that’s why she has troubles when she tries to persuade people, she must bowl them over. Conversely, it’s also probably that, like Dalinar, she despises lickspittles and sycophants, preferring someone with the strength of will to speak truth in her presence. I like her anyway because she is different and unique.
Lastly, it makes sense that she looks very OP. She has 6 years of experience over everyone except Szeth, and we see in WOK & WOR just how badass a person with full knowledge and control of their Surges can look. And whatever her flaws, Jasnah will never go into battle without full knowledge of her weaponry. That would be illogical.
@56 EvilMonkey: Good points abut the limited POVs we have gotten on Jasnah, and her years of experience over the rest of the Knights Radiant. I really enjoy the switching POVs, and how characters appear to other characters when they can’t see into each other’s heads like we readers can, and most of what we’ve seen of Jasnah has been through Shallan’s lens. I don’t feel I have enough on Jasnah yet to have a fully formed opinion on her. I find her to be an interesting secondary character, but I don’t know what makes her tick.
As for how OP Jasnah is, I feel that a lot of that has to do with Soulcasting. The way that power is set up I think anyone with it would seem OP. Apparently, one can literally make anything out of thin air. Or anything out of anything. I thought there might be some limits to this ability, but the way it is demonstrated in the books not really. I guess I’ll have to see how ridiculous some of the other KR powers are after a few years of practice.
@57 If it hadn’t been for Dalinar calling up a perpendicularity, Jasnah wouldn’t have had quite such an easy time of it during the fight. I suspect any fight more chaotic than the ambush of the muggers would find her too distracted to soulcast under normal circumstances.
@55: Yes, Jasnah was clever and witty just like Alethi women are raised to be, but being clever and witty isn’t always the best course of action. She certainly did not handled the situation well just as Shallan didn’t handled Renarin being bullied nicely either. I don’t fault her for it, but she might have made an enemy here.
I also agree Jasnah has a history with Amaram and it isn’t I fault her behavior. It is more I find the behavior unacceptable for the future Queen of Alethkar. As Queen, she may have to work with people she hates, she may have to make peace with former enemies. Dalinar understands this. Not Jasnah. And neither does Adolin to. He wouldn’t have been a better King.
@56: EvilMonkey, I agree about everything you posted. I do believe the handful of viewpoints we got from Jasnah, in OB, helped break apart the image of perfection Shallan bestowed on her. It did help showing us her inner vulnerability, but just like Adolin, none of it has come into play within the narrative.
I also agree about her ruthlessness, I have commented on this many times through various threads and this is exactly what has prompted me to theorize she might not be a good of a Queen as most people think she will be. I believe a leader should be more balanced and this person, if we are to stay within the Kholin household, probably was Navani. Jasnah is tipping too much on one side, she would be an amazing adviser, but to give her the freedom to decide the faith of the entire kingdom? I would never put it in the hands of an individual struggling with empathy and compassion. Not that she is devoid of both, but as you pointed out, she could go down the Taravangian route.
I also fear for her attitude next to people she does not respect which, unfortunately, happens to be a lot of people. As you pointed out, she has no patience for political games, she likes brutally honest people: courts aren’t this way. There is always someone playing a game and a good ruler should b a player whether he/she likes it or not. Even Dalinar came to understand this though he was not very good at it.
The difference between Jasnah and Taravanginan is that Jasnah still believes they can win while Taravanginan thinks a loss is a foregone conclusion. I can see her going the Taravanginan route only if she comes to believe that they have no chance.
I believe Jasnah would make a good ruler despite her faults. Gepeto and others aren’t sold. All I can say on this is there have been good and even great rulers who have the same strength/weakness profile as Jasnah. There have been kind and compassionate rulers who have been terrible at the job. Jimmy Carter was a great man, a humanitarian, and does great work to this day as a statesman and ambassador. He was an awful President. There have been geniuses that rose to positions of power and have run the entire gambit, great to horrible. I realize that a significant factor in this is what kind of leader would you like to be ruled by, and if that leader lacks compassion that looks like a bad thing. I’m sure it will bear out in the novels and we’ll see if it works out favorably.
But before I close out this comment lemme ask. For those who think Jasnah would have been a disaster, who could have possibly been a better choice? Is she a better candidate than her late brother? Is she as good a candidate as Adolin? With crazy pants Shallan as his Queen? What about one of those short-sighted highprinces? The Final Desolation is here; not much time to choose or to find somone better. No time to break down the system in favor of a better one. Jasnah is smart, tough, a fighter, she does listen to council and she doesn’t hide from painful truths. Even if she’s not the Greatest Queen to Ever Live I believe she’s the best available choice
@60: I think Navani would have been the better choice.
Adolin doesn’t have the authority to be King, he is too young, too many high ranked people view him as a foppish child and he doesn’t believe in himself. So while I think he has the right percentage of both compassion and smart, he’s also too temperamental. A good leader needs to be more leveled headed than Adolin here. Perhaps 40 years old Adolin would make a good King, but not now.
Navani has the smart, she could get the authority. She knows when to listen to others, she understands the game of politic. She can use both her brain and her heart to win a point as illustrated by how her essay was the one to steer the Azish towards the coalition. She can be ruthless if need be, but she has less chances of being blinded by her smart and her logic.
I thus think she would be the better choice.
So no I am not sold Jasnah as Queen for all of the reasons I have mentioned. And yes there was good and bad leaders having many different characteristics, this is true. A leader who factors in only empathy wouldn’t be a good leader. Balance is what I am looking for and I do not find Jasnah has it.
It’s OK, I agree to disagree with anyone on this.
To me, Shallan losing herself in her persona seems both relatable and nigh-inevitable, if not laudable. It’s probably an occupational hazard of Lightweaving, and a self-taught young Lighweaver with no guidance and a lot of insecurity, frustration, and self-hate would be especially vulnerable. Of course she wants to be someone she considers tougher, more confident, free of responsibility to save the world and a past so bad she can’t stand to remember it. And find that person more admirable than she thinks she is, and feel better when in that mindset, and stay in it when its utilitarian value isn’t needed.
I can relate to all of that, and I’m not a Lightweaver or severely traumatized. When acting in plays, I absorbed the mindset of whoever’s role I played and subconsciously considered them a reflection of who I am, even long after the production was done. Unlike Shallan, I usually played people I didn’t/don’t want to be, so this led only to more self-hate, but somehow the temptation was there — I’m lucky I can’t turn into a real semblance of a harpy or an evil prince or a losing loser who loses auditions. And even when I’m not feeling particularly divided in personality, I constantly insult and scold myself, so Veil hating on Shallan makes sense.
@62 I think the order uses Truths instead of oaths for exactly that reason. Having things that Shallan can’t forget means she has ways back to herself no matter how much she transforms herself.
@63 Agree wholeheartedly
Re: Navani as Queen
Her innate skills, characteristics, and diplomatic experience would make her a perfect candidate for Queen. Only one problem. The leaders of Roshar would not accept her. Not the Alethi, not the Vedens, not the Azir, not the Thaylens. Dalinar rules Urithiru and by extension the Knights Radiant. Navani is his wife, therefore seen by the world as an extension of him. A move by her to rule Alethkar would be seen by everyone as a subtle first step for the Blackthorn to consolidate power and rule all Roshar, just like his ancestors attempted. Nobody trusts the Alethi, not even other Alethi. They already think the Kholin family has too much power. They would suspect that Dalinar intentionally offed his stepson to gather in as much power as possible while pretending he had nothing to do with it. They would believe that old Dalinar pulled a Sadeas. Dalinar cannot afford to fight all the humans and Singers and the Fused. He doesn’t have time to convince them of his honorable intentions. Thaylen City did much to restore his credibility. Navani on the throne eliminates that good will immediately.
@@@@@ Lyndsey
It’s not a concept. It’s reality. There are so many examples that a series of books can be written and it will just scratch the surface. Cases in point:
The Little Black Dress by Hubert di Givenchy. A black dress has always been a part of a woman’s wardrobe. But, when Hubert di Givenchy dressed Audrey Hepburn in “Breakfast at Tiffany” in those simple yet elegant black sheath dresses, the Little Black Dress or LBD for short was born. All of a sudden, black is no longer just for funerals. It became the outfit de rigueur of a sophisticated woman. The change is subtle. It is just for a movie after all. But, Hollywood is at the epicenter, hence its reach was so wide that women around the world just gotta have a LBD. The change in culture – black is no longer just for funerals.
The Peasant Look by Yves Saint Laurent – Introduced in the 1960s, the peasant look is based on the costume of the Russian peasants. Who would have guessed that the lofty world of haute couture will welcome, even worship this look. It might have started on the catwalk where less than 100 people saw it. But, it was revolutionary for its time. The peasant look found itself in Woodstock, in the 1960s flower power, then settled nicely in boho. How did it change culture – aside from being a fashion statement by itself, it was also a harbinger of other fashion trends.
The mini skirt – Working independently from each other, British designer Mary Quant and French designer André Courrèges raised the hemline of women’s clothing to scandalous length that there was a collective gasp all over the world. It might just be the hemline, but the Youth Quake which was at its infancy that time found the mini skirt aligned with its revolution. The mini skirt, it is a subtle change since we are just talking about the hemline, but the world was never the same after it burst into the fashion scene.
Yes, reality is ahead of fiction on this one. :-)
#33, @Gepeto writes, “[Jasnah] is the smartest woman on Roshar, she is unparalleled as a researcher, it appears she has practical knowledge of warfare too, she can yield a Blade without having had any training we could see, her powers are so amazingly powerful she kills Fused without blinking an eye while Kaladin has to work really hard to achieve the same. Her only flaw is her complete lack of empathy, but most readers are arguing this isn’t an issue because she showed empathy, once, to Renarin, hence she can learn to become more emphatic.”
Well, no. That’s how Shallan perceives her, but not the contextual reality. Her mother is smarter than her, just more modest. Jasnah clearly has severe social anxiety, the real reason she never wanted wards and never had actual F2F friends outside her family–did you notice that the only people she socializes with are the Roshar versions of online-only? (“Spanreed only”?) She’s not just un-empathetic, she’s arrogant and dismissive, which makes her unpersuasive, as we see in this very book several times. As with some real people I know, it’s a defense mechanism to mask her insecurity.
She has also bought completely into the Alethi “everything is a contest” mind-set, and despite her analytic mind is so unselfconscious that she isn’t even aware of it, or why it might be a problem.
She’s an admirable person and I think of all the characters she’s one of only a few I would enjoy socializing with (if she were interested, which seems unlikely) but she’s hardly perfect.
I see that later you say some of the same things, but your quoted sentence above inspired that mini-essay analysis.
Because of that social anxiety, I think Jasnah will not enjoy being Queen, FWIW. She might want to keep family around her more, since they’re literally the only people she’s comfortable with.
Random thought: did Jasnah make the “small, but very definite” crown on her own head with Soulcasting? Not of any great significance, I just like the idea. Hm … can Shallan do the plastic arts? She could sculpt a crown of some easier material and Jasnah could Soulcast it into metal.
The Fused, as discussed by several: the Fused are in many ways morally superior to the Alethi or the Shin. Notably, some have far less “racial” prejudice than either. Some, but less. They’re happy to let Moash progress in Odium’s service to the point where he is given an Honorblade! His only counterpart here is Rlain, who has to wait for months to be issued a regular spear made of wood and metal. Even Odium is not shown as lacking all good qualities. The Fused are to various degrees mad … just like the Heralds. This mirror-image stuff is really out of hand in Oathbringer.
As for the love triangle that wasn’t … keep in mind a huge war is taking place. Kaladin, Adolin and/or Shallan could be dead 5 minutes after Book 4 opens. And they all know this.
@Gepeto again, “Speaking of which, by the end of OB, I noticed how people started to automatically defer to the Radiants as if they getting powers meant they knew about leadership, battles and military tactics. This was particularly grating when Renarin is ask to take command, despite himself, by people just believing he ought to know what they should do because of his status.” Notice also that he actually did everything right here, despite his insecurity. Not because he’s a Radiant, because he’s the Blackthorn’s son despite all their differences. It’s perhaps also worth mentioning that several orders of Radiants actually do have one form or another of leadership as one of their attributes, notably the Bondsmiths, Lightweavers, and Windrunners. I suspect they literally get a supernatural boost there.
If the Alethi use an inheritance system like our Earthly kingdoms, Navani could not be a ruling Queen. She isn’t a blood relative of the dynasty’s founder, Gavilar. In both European kingdoms and the Chinese empire, she could have been a ruling Regent for her grandson. Quibbling, yes, but I own nitpicking.com – that’s what I do.
@62: You are an actor? This is amazing! I have been writing how I felt Shallan merging into her personalities was similar to how an actor would merge into his role. Veil isn’t a part of herself, I read her as a role Shallan is playing, a side-effect of Lightweaving. She does say it to Hoid: when she is Veil, she has to think like Veil and those thoughts eventually become over-powering mostly because she over-uses the disguise as she likes being Veil more than she likes being herself.
I also agree what she goes through is probably something all young Lightweaver would go through without guidance. I mean, if you could be anyone you want anytime you want, wouldn’t you use the opportunity to re-invent yourself into someone you find more suitable? We all have our weaknesses.
Let’s say I had the power to change myself, who would I be? Fortunately, I am older now, so I know better, but let’s say I morph back into my 18 years old self? So who would I be? I’d be thinner, more athletic. I’d have exactly the right personality to make friends. I would try and change it up until most people like me, enough I can finally feel like I belong, enough I can finally stop feeling like an outside. Would it be me? No, it wouldn’t be but the temptation would be, really, strong.
@63: I agree. I wrote the same in an older threat.
@64: Fair point. I purposefully left out the fact Navani being married to Dalinar more or less barred her out. I do however believe, if we are to look into all Kholins and pick the one most suitable to be King/Queen, independently of other factors such as spouse, I would pick Navani.
Jasnah and Adolin would be equal as they both have their strengths and their weaknesses. Let’s say King Adolin wouldn’t make the same mistakes I think Queen Jasnah may make, but he would make other mistakes. He may also not have managed to have a strong enough leadership, he has the capacity to be a strong leader, but I do not think he is there yet, in his life. This is one characteristic Jasnah definitely has over him.
So I guess, Jasnah was the only choice they had left. Renarin is out of question, obviously. Still, I foresee conflicts here.
@65: I felt either book or movie A Devil’s wear Prada does highlight how fashion rule over the life of people even when they pretend not to care about it. This has been true of all eras. Watching Outlander and recently reading Ken Follet, I have googled about the various trends within the 16th and the 18th century. How the various hear-wear people donned at the time evolved is just fascinating.
I read so many negative comments on Adolin’s interest in fashion within the fandom as something ridiculous, futile. How it means the character has absolutely no value to the narrative because all he is got at is choosing his new coat. This is baffling. We are going to get to those chapters, but there are so much more to say abot Adolin and fashion then just calling him out for being rich. The under-lining message is actually quite powerful here. It was a nice mirror to Shallan, but one so subtle I fear many readers didn’t see it.
@66: Where in the textual is it said Navani is the smartest woman? In OB, we had Jasnah’s viewpoints. We also have third person’s perspective on her from Dalinar So impressions on the character aren’t solely taken out of Shallan’s viewpoints. Jasnah is thought to be one of the smartest women on Roshar. We also have the prologue from WoR where Gavilar tells Jasnah something along those lines: “How hard is it for you to lower yourself to talk to people so intellectually inferior to you?”. I always felt this one was Gavilar’s pun towards Jasnah’s arrogance. It was misplaced, coming from a father to a daughter, but I did think if Gavilar felt this way, then it probably comes from somewhere.
On Jasnah and wards, we do have a WoB on this one. Jasnah has had wards before and it didn’t end well which is why she refuses to have other ones now. I do not read her as having social anxiety either, she seems to navigate around people well enough, but her cold logic and her trouble at reading other people’s emotional reaction (or if she can read them, she struggles to consider them, it is either one or the other, the narrative doesn’t allow us to conclude yet) does make her struggle to connect with others. People don’t want to be responded by cold logic when they come in with their problems, more often than not, they just want empathy. Some people do struggle to realize this, this isn’t a critic, just a statement on how different all people are.
The one with anxiety is Renarin, still according to WoB. Dalinar struggles with relationships because he is too blunt, ill-mannered (in his youth) and he has either no interest and/or no capacity to understand the political game, so he withdrew himself. Adolin craves for social interactions (he’s one of the only extroverted characters we have on the cast, a rare occurrence in works of fantasy) and wants to be liked by everyone, but only makes him appear superficial and meaningless as he can’t never be himself for fear of displeasing.
All Kholins have issues with social interactions, but I do think Jasnah’s are more linked to an inability to process in emotional reaction in others more than social anxiety. This gives credence to theories of her being on the spectrum, but it may also not be the case.
That Jasnah’s only friends would be spanreed friends is not surprising. When writing, you don’t have to deal with other people’s emotional reaction. It is why introverted and people having all sort of socialization problems are over-represented on the Internet: because they are more at ease here than within the real-world talking to others. It is why extroverted people are under-represented onto the Internet too: those who are socially successful have their share of human contact outside, those who aren’t, like myself, are here. It is a really interesting debate to have: I have given those things a lot of thoughts within the last years.
As I said, I do not think Jasnah is perfect, but I do think the narrative is emphasizing on her being perfect. That’s why I am thinking she must have a serious flaw. I am waiting to see it come through within the narrative.
I thought the crown was just the standard crown. Gavilar and Elhokar had a similar crown.
On the love triangle, I think OB highlighted if someone was highly likely to die, it was Adolin.
On Renarin, yes on this specific occasion, he did right. I don’t mean to blame him, none of this is his fault: he did the best he could and those were one of his best moments. It however did make me tick how others defer to the Radiants… Renarin may be the Blackthorn’s son, but since when does he have any valid military experience? How many campaigns has he taken part into? Dalinar was so keen to give orders to his Radiants, but he ignored his own son, Adolin, who is, by far, the best one to take leadership in a battle.
Are we going to see a situation where the Radiants supersedes military people such as General Kahl and Adolin just because of their status? Are they going to take the leadership over the Generals having the war-related experience to really lead?
I thought this could add interesting conflict, so I wondered if this was where the story was going.
On Deference to Radiants:
I think the issue is somewhat unavoidable. The guy with the God powers is naturally going to be looked to to make the decisions. It is human nature. It’s also the rule of thumb in greater Roshar. The Alethi and Vedens based their entire social hierarchy on the memory of Radiants and before Radiants emerged people carrying Shardblades were always important, always had positions of authority. As a consequence, many of the Radiants have leadership and/or battlefield experience. Not all of course; Lyft for example has neither. But the world has looked to Radiants for so long that even an ignorant street urchin girl from the Reshii Isles has a voice in the highest circles of power just because she can summon a shape-shifting magical quarterstaff. But I can see things balancing out eventually. Wars tend to bring the most capable of a population to the forefront. It’s evolutionary. Therefore through trial and error the people who need to be in charge will eventually rise to their proper station despite their Radiant status or lack thereof. Or they will lose. There’s no in-between.
Renarin may have no experience fighting, but he likely has attended many war councils. He might be a better general than someone like young Dalinar, who is good at fighting is bored by councils. As long as Renarin doesn’t have to lead from the front he could be a qualified war leader if he can overcome his problems interacting with people.
@66 Fused are morally superior except for that whole kill all the humans thing. Virtue in pursuit of genocide is the pursuit of genocide. Maybe I’m being unreasonable but I really hate the Fused. I like obsessive vengeance as much as the next guy but they’re taking it a bit far. You’re supposed to dig two graves, not one ordinary grave and one with a revolving door.
@68: I agree it is inevitable. I however do not think it is the right approach. Within our current Radiant, only Kaladin, apart from Dalinar, has military experience. Renarin, Shallan, Jasnah, for all her claimed knowledge, do not have field experience. Kaladin has field experience, but he showed in OB he is not reliable taken charge of operations. He can’t keep his head cool and he can’t move on.
I do foresee conflict if people keep on expecting the Radiants to have knowledge they do not possess. I however need to say this is a conflict I find very interesting, so huh, I kind of hope Brandon will go there.
@69: It is a possibility though we have never seen Renarin within the military counsels. In WoR, they have some o those and I do not recall Renarin attending, but either way. Hearing counsel isn’t the same as taking part into real battles. Theory only brings you so far, practice makes better. So while it is not impossible for Renarin to grow into an apt military leader, I think people would be foolish to rely on someone having no military experience, on the field to give them orders.
I’m straight but I can completely relate to Shallan’s thoughts on Jasnah, especially as I’ve never been confident/beautiful or one of those people that just seems to glide through the world and make friends. I’m more confident now and secure in who I am, but I know I’m not one of *those* types of people.
Regarding Jasnah’s queenship as well as her showings in this chapter – I do love Jasnah but I was not really cheering for her in this chapter. I hope that eventually her intelligence and desire for truth can lead to considering some alternate solutions instead of what just appears to be ‘logical’ and the best for them. S
@67: I acted in many school plays in elementary school through college, but haven’t done so since my last college play in 2009. Yet I vividly remember them, and how they led me to be. Bah, I realize my post above was a tangle of tenses.
If you look at their actual records: Jasnah can write technical articles.
Navani has helped to invent a new branch of magic. That’s entirely intellectual. Yes, she brushes off her own accomplishments. She’s being modest.
Gepeto @33:
How is Jasnah lacking in flaws which have negative consequences for those around her? We had a front-seat for her many on-screen mistakes and allusions to some off-screen as well:
There were some mentioned disasters with her prior wards, and with one in particular it was hinted to have been something serious.
She did a pretty poor job as a spymistress for Kholins: at least 2 people got into Gavilar’s final feast under false pretenses despite her vetting of the guests backgrounds, her handling of Aesudan proved to be a costly mistake, her evaluation of Sebarial (who had been a Highprince since she was a little girl) in her notes was completely off, she didn’t form even the smallest suspicion of Mr. T, after Gavilar’s death she took off to do her surge-binder/Voidbringer research, leaving no replacement as a chief of intelligence for her family, which forced them to rely on Sadeases for that with known results, etc. For that matter, Gavilar and the Sons of Honor conducted their secret dealings right under her nose, with her none the wiser. It is a good thing that Shallan seems poised to take over.
Jasnah’s method of foiling Kabsal’s assassination attempt nearly cost Shallan her life, she really screwed the pooch during the attack on the boat – first by being so careless that the murderers got a jump on her (shouldn’t Ivory have been standing guard as a routine?), then by chosing the wrong method of responding to them, _then_ panicking and transporting away, which took her out of the game for the crucial period of time and should have resulted in disaster, if not for the series of incredibly lucky breaks, but still did result in collateral damage to the crew.
She mishandled Shallan on her return and don’t start me on her treatment of Amaram – which was just too idiotic to be even remotely believable, IMHO, just as her not realising that after offering him mortal insults in public, she should have better been planning his permanent removal ASAP. But then, I feel that repeated snubbing of Amaram by all and sundry was included more as a sop to Kaladin fans because he didn’t get to save the day ad nauseam in this volume, than anything that made any sense for the characters and the narrative.
Even Jasnah’s heresy, while not the flaw/mistake as such at the time when she announced it, is going to bite her in posterior in a major way as a queen, given that the ardents are in charge of crucial infrastructure, like the Soulcasters, training, including military one, hospitals, etc. It is fairly likely that she’ll have to do Henri IV’s “Paris is worth a mass” now to be able to lead the Alethi effectively.
Oh, and Jasnah always tries to convince people by logical arguments, which often is the wrong approach.
Her over-poweredness at the time of Battle of Thaylenah was very much a situational thing, as circumstances were particularly beneficial for her abilities and the opposition lacked people who could take advantage of it ditto, which is not going to be the case moving forward. As to her swordsmanship, it would have been logical for her to obtain some training as soon as she became aware that she would get a shardblade, no? And Jasnah is nothing if not that.
To sum it up, Jasnah is going to face a lot of challenges as a ruler and while she does have a lot of needed qualities, like intelligence, courage, decisiveness, ability to dominate, she is deficient in others, like reading people and their motivations correctly, convincing them to her point of view, ability to engage and inspire them on emotional level, delegation, etc.
Speaking of the argument in this chapter – did Dalinar neglect to share his new insights into the Oathpact with Jasnah prior to this meeting? Because they kinda render her ideas re: forcing the Heralds to do their duty via assassination moot.
Just like the events at Thaylenah and revelations about the origins of Rosharan humans may have rendered the argument for parsh genocide moot – since Odium was clearly demonstrated to not be limited in choice of his pawns to one sentient species.
Dptullos @42:
Let’s not forget that Gavilar had the same visions as Dalinar, but arrived at different conclusions. I believe that his solution to preparing the humanity for the Last Desolation that he knew was coming, was to prepare and unify them via a False Desolation which he intended to start by releasing Bo-Ado-Mishram.
Re: Parsh and slavery, it is a difficult issue. It is important to remember that they haven’t been free for a long time – even before their lobotomization they were Bo-Ado-Mishram’s slaves and she managed to somehow rob them of their natural ability to change forms without her own intervention and used to force forms on them according to her own plans. That’s why the discovery of the dull-form was so revolutionary and why the Lost Legion needed to laborously re-discover other forms after their escape. We have also seen with Eshonai that Odium spren can brainwash them into obedience against their own will. So, to say they the Unmade/Odium spren/the Fused are the reason that the parsh are “free” is more than a little problematic, IMHO. Yes, once it became known that the parsh were the “Voidbringers” there likely would have been mass slaughter… in fact, I felt that it was a bit of a dodge that nobody took Dalinar seriously enough to enact one in the Camps. But it is again the chicken and egg problem, because the reason for it would have been those entities as well.
Slavery among the Vorin nations is another thorny problem, but I am unsure that genocide would have been inevitable without the whole “can suddenly turn into voidbringers” stuff. Aren’t there hints in Jasnah’s research in WoK that humans and singers lived peacefully between the Desolations in the past? It doesn’t seem like pre-emptive genocide had been tried back then. So, why couldn’t parsh regaining sentience lead to US Southern States post Civil War deal instead? Which was very much less than ideal, of course, but still less drastic than extermination, and for the same reason. After all, there’d still be a parsh-shaped labour-force vacuum that’ll need filling.
As to the Fused’s lack of discrimination… IMHO they’ll start eliminating “useless” humans very soon. After all, humans outnumber the singers and food production had been very much disrupted by the Everstorm and it’s aftermath. Not to mention that the humans are likely to rebel at some point and are also liable to produce surge-binders.
Gepeto @54:
Shallan told herself that Amaram only acted in self-defense in WoR, but she continued to hate him because of it. Doesn’t she have a knee-jerk reaction to him as Helaran’s killer in OB too? Possibly even in the upcoming confrontation scene before she remembers the truth. So yea, I think that she is supressing the knowledge that Kaladin was responsible and that it was an important factor in her/Veil’s infatuation with him in OB. And that arrival of her brothers is likely to bring the issue to the fore again.
@72: I also think admiring an older woman having all of the characteristics you deem wonderful indeed is a behavior many young girls would readily adopt. Woman can be envious of each other while remaining heterosexual. I never read more than this into Shallan’s admiring Jasnah’s features, but Brandon did say if readers want to make another head-canon where those thoughts are interpreted as romantic, then they are free to do so. Hence, I think both interpretations can co-exist within the fandom.
@73: No, I think it was really interesting to have the perspective of someone having acting experience. Isn’t said Heath Ledger committed suicide because he couldn’t dissociate himself from his Joker role?
@75: Great post! You did well in highlighting where Jasnah has failed on multiple occasions.
I mentioned the problems with her previous wards, though we have very little clues to try to guess what might have happened.
I never thought of her failing as the Kholin’s spy-mistresses and neither did I think of how her focus on her research led her to leave her family alone without anyone to replace her. While I agree these are definite mistake, which flaw would you associate those mistakes to?
I thought her reaction to her assassination attempt was plausible for someone having no battle experience. Panicking when you haven’t been used to “stay calm at all cost” is, after all, a natural reaction. I will however admit I have a hard time trying to correlate those scenes with Jasnah utter cool at the Thaylenah battle.
On Amaram, I spoke about this in an earlier response. Yes, I do think she mishandled him. I however do not think those scenes were incorporated for the Kaladin fans. I believe those scenes exist because they serve to justify/explain how Amaram ended up turning to Odium.
My perception are he was willing to work with the Kholin, whatever else he might have done, there always has been some honor in Amaram. I do think he wanted the good of Alethkar and, unlike Sadeas, he did not have any personal animosity with the Kholins, not before Dalinar started to want to trial him for what happened with Kaladin. Even then, Amaram pleaded they needed him, they needed his military expertise and he would submit himself to a trial, once the war is over. I actually believed he would even though it is later clear he is bitter about it, mostly because he is one of the few who knows the truth about the Rift.
Still, if the Kholins had actually accepted to work with him, I do think the later crisis would have been averted. Dalinar made some serious mistakes… Sending Amaram’s army away to Thaylenah was a mistake. Sure, Dalinar wanted to remove them because they were getting angry nothing was coming out of the investigation for Sadeas’s murder. However instead of making statements, showing progress and being transparent, Dalinar just sent them away to avoid them being a problem.
All those scenes, I think they exist to create a rational why an entire army would turn to Odium, why a patriotic man such as Amaram would fall for Odium. And I do think Jasnah contributed to it. Adolin too, by not admitting his guilt earlier. I was surprised this wasn’t shoved back to him, after all, it was all his fault. An entire princedom ruined because of him and while the crisis could have been averted had both Dalinar and Jasnah behaved better, it is still Adolin’s fault.
I agree about logical argument often being the worst to convince people. This is also why I think she will struggle as a Queen. She might make the good decisions, but she won’t be able to have the people accept them.
On her sword training, where would she have gotten it? Women do not sword train. And there are no reasons to believe Jasnah had her Blade prior to being lost in Shadesmar.
And yeah, Dalinar makes a lot of mistakes. He lacks transparency. He expects people to just do as he says and he never bothers to explain his decision process. The information he gets from his visions, how the investigation is going, Dalinar just keeps it all for himself and expects the Sadeas soldiers will be satisfied not knowing what is happening.
@54: But Shallan had other reasons to hate Amaram: her hate isn’t directed solely on the fact she thinks he murdered Helaran. Kaladin is someone she likes. She does process the fact he is not to blame. She can’t hate a soldier for killing another soldier in a battle. I am pretty sure this is over. I would be annoyed if Brandon were to bring this back. It seems superfluous at this point in time and I do think this chapter marks the conclusion of “Kaladin killed Helaran”. He did. Not his fault. I’m pretty sure Shallan has moved on.
I was amused by Kaladin being called “the flying bridgeman,” though the descriptor may be lost when other bridgemen start flying.
@@@@@ Isilel & Gepeto
Re: Jasnah
I am kinda getting the impression that you guys are reacting to Shallan’s portrayal of Jasnah by moving too far in the other direction, that someone with her skills and abilities should have been able to accomplish impossible tasks routinely. Vetting the assassination party? What 2 guests were there that weren’t supposed to be? Szeth obviously, a no-name Shin servant displaying powers not seen for millennia is the only one I can think of and to be fair nobody saw him coming, no one could have suspected that someone like him even existed. If you’re talking about Nale and Kalak, pretty sure at least one of those guys had an invitation (chatting with Elkohar). He could have brought Kelek as his plus 1. Guarding against unknown threats is part of the job. Predicting and preventing Szeth from his target is akin to someone in our world trying to prevent an asteroid impact.
Not killing Aseudan may have been a bad call but I believe that she was trying to be sure the threat existed before acting. Suspicions aren’t enough when considering regicide. With 20/20 hindsight we see that leaving Aseudan to her own devices was a bad call but I’m not sure the outcome was foreseeable.
As for abandoning Alethkar, I see no fault in the action. She was trying to prevent a new Desolation. If such Desolation occurred more than Alethkar would be in danger. If there’s fault it would be in the execution. She tries to handle it in her typical Jasnah fashion, tackling the problem with logic and research. But 3 things worked worked against her. Getting rid of the parshmen would have upended all the societies of Roshar. Nobody would do that if they don’t see the threat. Human nature there. 2, being a confessed heratic lessens her credibility in the eyes of the world. 3, Jasnah wasn’t the right person for the job in the first place; she isn’t good at rabble rousing. Even so, the task itself was an impossible one to begin with. Points should be awarded for the attempt alone.
As for Amaram, screw that guy. He had that verbal barrage coming to him and much more. I absolutely loved that scene when she put him in his place. I recognize that from a political standpoint it was a mistake but to be fair he did push the issue when she tried to disengage. As for the aftermath, sending him to Thaylen City was an attempt to mitigate the damage while trying to preserve a strong princedom. Sure she could have had him murdered but the start of the apocalypse is no time to start offing those who are supposed to be helping you win.
More on Amaram. There have been times in my career when I disagreed with the orders I’ve been given. There are times when I’ve felt I have been wronged by those placed above me. Any soldier, officer or enlisted, has come across this scenario if they’ve been in long enough. No one’s response should be, “Hey, I’m going to switch sides and murder my allies”. Defending that bag of crap by saying he could have been loyal if Dalinar and Jasnah would have trusted him is robbing him of agency. He very well could have acted differently, took the unfavorable assignment and worked to regain a trusted position. If he’d have done that he would certainly have earned clemency and ultimately better and more sexy assignments. There’s a Desolation going on after all and good Generals are worth their weight in gold. He should have understood that the Kholins were very recently stabbed in the back by Sadeas and would have been dead were it not for a certain flying bridgeman. They would naturally be slow to trust someone at their back that they know for a fact is not above betrayal of his comrades in arms. The Blackthorn was a great and terrible man, a warlord who gloried in death and destruction. But he never betrayed anyone under his command. Killed a few but never betrayed them. Amaram’s betrayal is egregious enough to give even the Blackthorn pause. I admit that I’m biased as a soldier because I know I cannot do my job effectively if I cannot trust the guy who gives me my orders. Defend Amaram if you want, nothing anyone says can make me think there’s any justification for his actions. Good riddance.
Back to Jasnah. The difference between the assassination on the boat and her competence at Thaylen City is obvious to me. In the first she was surprised both by the attempt and the execution. The second she knew what she was getting into beforehand. I’m quite sure that the boat attempt was the closest anyone ever came to ending her based on her actions in the moment. And anyone who has been in life or death situations can tell you that nobody knows how they will react when the situation comes about, especially not the first time. Also, she wasn’t quite used to the care and feeding of a ward. Shallan isn’t her child either. With Kabsal’s attempt she was never in any danger. If Shallan wasn’t there she would have never eaten something prepared or brought by Kabsal. And she saved Shallan’s life. The only way she could have done better is if she had a crystal ball up her safehand sleeve.
On mishandling Shallan upon her return, Shallan is so contrary in her head that I don’t know if there was any way to handle her correctly. Should she have treated her like a equal? Shallan certainly wasn’t behaving like an adult. She was shirking her responsibility to the council and not contributing in any way to solving the problems facing Roshar. Shallan did not have the luxury of goofing off but she did anyway. She didn’t deserve to be treated like an equal.
In conclusion, I’m not trying to hand-wave Jasnah’s weaknesses as a leader or the problems she faces in ruling Alethkar. I’ve acknowledged earlier that she has 2 strikes against her in being female and a heratic. I agree that being overly logical is a trait that makes it hard to persuade others and is probably the main reason she prefers the brute force approach. But some of the things people classify as her mistakes are things nobody could make a success. Not outing King T? Dude out-maneuvered an entire country. Jasnah doesn’t have a tenth of Jah Kaved’s resources. How was she supposed to know? Jasnah is technically superhuman but she ain’t God. And as we see in OB, even Gods can miscalculate.
I see Shallan’s hand wave of Kaladin killing her brother as just a double standard. She likes Kaladin, and is willing to extend the benefit of the doubt to him (helped by the fact that she got to know him before the bomb was dropped), while the only thing she “knew” of Amaram was that he killed Helaran, and couldn’t even justify it as self-defense, which it most certainly would have been.
@Gepeto: “On her sword training, where would she have gotten it? Women do not sword train. And there are no reasons to believe Jasnah had her Blade prior to being lost in Shadesmar.” Women in Vorin culture do not train with swords, unless they’re Ardents. Jasnah is not Vorin and she was traveling for years, presumably she got training somewhere else. She clearly got some, and very good training at that. It might also be from Vasher/Zahel, who is paradoxically both an Ardent and non-Vorin himself.
It’s certainly possible that Jasnah had not taken her Third Oath by the time of her Shadesmar odyssey, but it seems unlikely to me. By the time of Oathbringer she has seemingly taken the Fourth, since (as discussion in another reread thread convinced me) she can manifest her Plate. That would be two oaths very close together, if she took both since the “pirate” attack.
@78: Not exactly, I see it more as a reaction to thinking many readers aren’t seeing any flaws in Jasnah. If the flaws we can see in her character aren’t really flaws, then what are they? A character who’s universally good at everything is not interesting. Now, I do not think this is the approach Brandon is going with when it comes to Jasnah, so I do think the character does have flaws.
On the matter of her task as the spy-mistress of her household, she seemed rather clueless about her father’s involvement with the Sons of Honor. On this one, I am willing to consider she might have known without the narrative having had the time to explore this, but based on the perspective we got, it does seem like she missed this. I do not blame her for failing to prevent the assassination attempt on her father, she couldn’t have foreseen this, but for someone Dalinar praised for her political savviness, she has yet to show it, within the actual pages of the book.
I don’t think not killing Aseudan was a bad call: I do not think having your sister in law assassinated is a good call, no matter the situation. Elhokar clearly loved her. Even though it might have been better, in the long run, I still cannot condone assassination. Now, of course, these feelings might exist because we haven’t really seen much of Aseudan. All we saw is she was power hungry, she swallowed a sphere and she lost herself. Who was she before? Was she truly a lost cause? Hard to tell.
As for Alethkar, many interpretations can co-exist. Jasnah did feel her researching task took precedence over any other task she might have had. Maybe this was true, but she could have still made sure she left trusted people behind to help her family. I feel those events do underline one of Jasnah’s weakness: she isn’t a team player. It is quite probable there was just no one she trusted. She is a lone wolf, she has no team mates, no one she really trusts but two people half a world away.
On Amaram, I thought the narrative highlighted how Odium took advantage of his army’s anger at seeing their Highprince’s death being dismissed so casually, at being sent to do the dirty work and at how they have been treated on average. The Sadeas soldiers didn’t chose, they were literally possessed. Amaram, he had a choice, but at that point in time, he didn’t have it in him to make a different one. Just like Moash, he ended up in a situation where choosing differently became difficult.
I think we shouldn’t underestimate the support our other characters have gotten. Sure, Dalinar makes the right choices, but Dalinar got to where he is because he benefited from the undying blind support, love and admiration of every single one of his loved one. If one of his sons hadn’t been willing to forgive him so easily, had been quick to remind Dalinar of the bad things he did, then it might have been harder for Dalinar to accept his guilt. As it is, Dalinar only saw the effect of his guilt onto himself: he was both the aggressor and the victim. His real victims, they are either dead and have no longer a way to make their voice heard or they refuse to view themselves as ones and think of him as a hero.
Amaram is within a much different situation. He was the aggressor. He knows this, but unlike Dalinar, his actions are rippling outside of him. His guilt has an external name, Kaladin. His victim also has a name, Kaladin. His victim is calling him out for what he has done. His victim is not going to forgive him, ever.
I thus find it was easier for Dalinar to fight back Odium then it was for Amaram. Amaram, all he had around him were people pointing out to him, constantly bringing out the one time he did something dishonorable (the narrative seems to suggests Kaladin and his squad were a one time event), refusing to forgive him, demanding he is to be punished for it. All his efforts to try to be a better team player were turned down. True, we understand why, but I am trying to walk into Amaram’s shoes for a while here. In comparison, Dalinar has people around him not caring about what he did in the past, not blaming him for anything he did in the past, forgiving him his every deeds, respecting him whole-heartily and deeming him the greatest man in the universe.
There are those who you will disagree, but for myself, I thought it is easier to forgive yourself when the world has forgiven you and/or is not willing to punish you for your deeds. It is much harder when reminders of your past deeds walks about you, accusing you and everyone else then declaring you are nothing more than a waste of human life. There were just no narrative where Amaram got to redeem himself. It could have happened, I guess, but the Kholins would have still demanded he is trialed for Kaladin and Dalinar would have still been left off the hook for the Rift.
And I don’t see it as a betrayal, not really. It isn’t as if Amaram consciously decided to turn against Alethkar: he was following his orders up until Odium and the Thrill showed up. This isn’t how it happens. His soldiers were literally possessed against their will by evil sprens, they no longer controlled themselves. Amaram was twisted by Odium and, as I explained above, when faced with something of such immense power, he didn’t have it in him to resist. Dalinar nearly commits the same betrayal, BTW, except he had the capacity to say no. Granted, we can argue Amaram could have had it, but what I am trying to explain is coming from his shoes, it is much more difficult to accept his guilt than it was for Dalinar.
I agree with you on how Jasnah treats Shallan though. I commented on this in an earlier thread. I do agree with Jasnah here. Shallan, despite her claim she is now an adult, was behaving like a petulant irresponsible child. She was treated as such. This wasn’t a mistake, this was Shallan who got an inflated sense of her ego due to a short string of successes.
@80: While it is not technically completely impossible for Jasnah to have taken secret lessons elsewhere within the wide world, I tend to think if Alethi princess Jasnah had been training in the sword, the word would have gotten out. Right now, Jasnah being training by anyone (when would have Zahel had the time to train Jasnah) holds on readers saying: “It could have happened, even if culturally is never happens, we just need to imagine it happened”.
For me, that’s a problem. One element which is important, when writing fiction, is to have a backstory to explain your character skills. For instance, Kaladin is good with the spear because he intensively trained for four years with it and he has a natural ability with it. Adolin is the best duelist because he trains for hours everyday and has been doing so for over a decade. In other works of fiction, huh Katniss is a huntress apt with a bow with strong survival skills because her father was a hunter, he taught her. She then spent 4 years honing those skills when she needed to hunt to feed her family.
So, for each skill, there is a need for a plausible background. A character can’t just pop into the story with an unlikely skill without the readers knowing where it comes from. In the case of Jasnah, I can buy she has skills with soulcasting because she presumably spent the last six years working on developing them. Swordmanship is however completely out of the box for a Vorin woman and not something Jasnah could have decide to under-take on a whim. Hence, if she does have sword training, then the story needs to come up with a decent rational for it. In the absence of a rational, some readers read those scenes and roll their eyes: “Of course, Jasnah is even good with her sword, a skill she should not possessed”.
On how many oaths she said, I think it is impossible to guess. My thoughts are she swore the third oath while being in Shadesmar and didn’t have Blade access prior to this adventure. If I am right, then there would have never been any occasion for her to learn how to use her Blade, not to forget a Vorin woman showing up with a Blade would draw attention.
It could have happened differently though. The only sure thing is, after WoR, Shallan was ahead of Jasnah. I would however love for book 4 to come up with a good rational for Jasnah’s unlikely skill with a Blade. She can’t be good at everything and honestly, fighting shouldn’t be one of her talents. If it is, then I wish for a stronger rational.
My question is, is there anything in the narrative that actually shows that Jasnah has uncommon skill with her Ivoryblade? She is comfortable wielding him. But her impressive showing at Thaylen City was mostly with Soulcasting. She slashes a few Fused that come close but it’s not like she was dueling anyone. The level of skill she shows with her blade is imo consistant with someone who uses a blade as an extension of their arm. Ivory is a part of her so that makes sense. But she’s not doing anything complex or requiring a buttload of skill with bladework, only Soulcasting. Now if she wasn’t using Soulcasting but was out in the field using Windstance and slaying a bunch of enemies looking like the Blackthorn at his most terrifying then that would be something to question.
Amaram’s choices were his own. Magically influenced or not, Amaram’s choices were his own. You cannot give him clemency then turn around and deny Dalinar that same clemency based on magical influence. I deny clemency for both despite Odium’s interference. But betrayal and deception is worse in my book. It’s that simple for me; it may not be for others. Amaram’s actions were and still are inexcusable. Justifications for his actions tend to put a sour taste in my mouth. I find it impossible to take a more nuanced view of that guy. Screw that guy.
How do you know Shallan was ahead of Jasnah? We don’t know how far Jasnah had progressed. Just because she didn’t show a Shardblade on screen before doesn’t mean she couldn’t have summoned it if she wanted to.
When does Jasnah show great skill with a sword? She mainly fights with Soulcasting.
@82: Fair point. As a rule of thumb, I would say the scene where she just brandished her Ivoryblade to expertly slash an upcoming Fused is used as the base point to state she does have some skills. We have seen Kaladin work very hard to defeat the Fused and yet Jasnah barely has to breath hard to kill them effortlessly.
While it is true she isn’t demonstrating outlandish skills with her Blade, her ease around it suggests some minimal training, at the very least. We all remember how Renarin couldn’t even hold his Blade straight without training and/or how Vasher first started training Vivenna in yielding her sword with some amount of talent. Jasnah’s yielding Ivory suggest some knowledge and training. I mean, if someone where to give me a Blade tomorrow morning, I don’t think I just readily brandished to skewer anything. I would be clumsy. I would expect a Vorin woman not used to do any physical exercise to be clumsy. A bit more like Shallan who gets it is relatively not too shabby mostly because she spent a lot of time drawings swords figures. Jasnah doesn’t have this advantage and she doesn’t look like someone who does a lot of physical exercise either. Adolin was right, about Shallan, she’ll need to rel-learn how to breath. I don’t expect someone like Jasnah to know how to do this, but the narrative implies she probably does.
I never said Amaram’s weren’t his choices. They were. I have however said given the fact everyone was positioned against him, the choice he had was much less interesting than Dalinar’s. In other words, there were no redemption for Amaram, no forgiveness. He could have been the greater man, accept to fight for Alethkar and then accept to be executed for what he did to Kaladin’s squad. He had the choice in between himself or Alethkar, he chose himself. Would I have chosen differently? I am not sure I would have easily accepted knowing Dalinar is allowed forgiveness and redemption which is denied to me.
I found it tragic more so than Dalinar because Dalinar’s choice wasn’t about accepting judgment from others which would have resulted in his execution. It was him accepting his own guilt. It was purely internal. In shorts, Dalinar never had to deal with the external consequences of his actions, Amaram did. Dalinar never had to deal with people hating him for what he did, with people saying he deserved punishment for what he did.
Whatever Amaram chose that day, I feel there were no good options. Just like Moash.
What leaves a bad taste in my mouth is justification for Dalinar burning the Rift, such as saying it wasn’t his fault, it was Evi’s and Tanalan’s fault as without them he wouldn’t have lost control (I am not saying you personally voiced out those thoughts, but I have read them). This line of justification is too akin to excusing a violent man for hitting his wife because she triggered his anger. So I guess we all have our limitations when it comes to this narrative. I personally find it easier to understand a man such as Amaram, but I understand it isn’t the case for all readers.
@83: There is a WoB from after WoR which says Shallan was the most advanced Radiant, at the time. I always assumed it included Jasnah.
Amaram doesn’t seek redemption nor forgiveness. He felt he didn’t do anything wrong. He feels guilty about the necessity (in his opinion) of betraying innocent men, one of which saved his life but never once did he feel the path he follows is the wrong one. He’s looking for validation not redemption. He wants to be acknowledged as the type of guy that can make the tough decisions for the good of Roshar but his actions are the type of actions that highlight just why the 1st Oath of the KR is so damn important. Amaram’s actions are the complete opposite of the Ideals the Radiants live by. Given Dalinar’s past, it is absolutely plausible that Amaram would have been pardoned for his betrayal had he followed orders and gave good service on behalf of Roshar and the war effort. His name would have been tarnished but that’s likely all. Pride caused him to flip to the other side. And as far as everyone being against him, that’s not true. Jasnah and the Kholins, Kaladin and Shallan are about the extent of the unfavorable treatment. Sure the main POV characters hold animosity towards him. That doesn’t prevent him from securing a princedom or having an important role in the defense of Roshar. It’s like You say though. Everyone has their hot button issues.
@85: Amaram actually reflects back on his past actions and tells Kaladin he felt a lit of guilt for what he did. I never interpret his narrative as him being proud nor pleased with what he did, I felt he genuinely believed he might have made a mistake and/or he felt he was forced to do something he should not have done. If he were convinced he needed to take this course of action at the time when he chose to do so, he didn’t seem convinced afterwards. In the end, sure, he was ranting, he lost himself in there.
I felt there was a lot more going on with Amaram’s character than what we got within the narrative. Of course, YMMV here, but I’ll admit I tend to focus more on side-characters such as him. I always found Amaram’s character very interesting.
My perspective also was he was doomed no matter what he did. You say it was probable Dalinar might have forgiven him and drop the decision to trial him (and condemned him to his execution, let’s not kid ourselves as to how this would have gone down). I say there are no ways of knowing what the Kholins might have chosen to do, once the Desolation has passed. There are no ways to foresee if Amaram would have managed to redeem himself through his future actions and it is quite probable Kaladin would never forgive him and insist on a trial. Same might apply to Adolin. Dalinar? I agree he could have gone both ways: he does realize how hypocritical it is of him to insist on trialing Amaram when he is guilty of having done worst for lesser justifications (Dalinar’s own words).
Hence, I don’t think it was possible for Amaram to rationalize the Kholins would drop their accusations. Yes, pride ultimately was his downfall, but I do find what happens to him to be more complicated than a mere man wanting more powers. From Jasnah’s refusing to work with him, to Dalinar making a bad decision call in sending his entire army to Tayhlenah, to the knowledge Dalinar was applying a double-standard here (Amaram does not know Dalinar does not remember his past, hence from his perspective what is happening to him is a double-standard), it feels to me the stars aligned themselves for Amaram to fall prey to Odium. Had things gone down differently, he might have made a different choice. Just like Moash.
So yes, Amaram fell. Yes, he has no one else to blame but himself. No, he isn’t a victim, but I’d say he was put into a situation which made it harder to come up with a different rational than the one he ultimately embraced.
On the first ideal of the Radiant, well, I do not believe the Radiants are a finality in itself. By this I mean, I do not believe they hold the higher moral ground just because they swore an ideal which could be interpreted within various ways. Of course, Amaram would probably never be Radiant material though seeing they did pick Elhokar who was in it for his own personal glory, I’d say it is more complex than it first appears. Still, it doesn’t change the fact he is a human being with complex reactions: not all of them are good ones, but no one’s every reactions are good ones too. Sometimes, we pick the wrong choice, for the wrong reasons in reaction to something else. Sometimes, we merely choose to be selfish. There is no helping it and being a Radiant hasn’t prevent any of our characters for, sometimes, being selfish.
As for the unfavorable treatment, every single of the narrative’s main characters treated Amaram in an unfavorable way. So while it is true there surely were other characters who didn’t, it doesn’t change the fact the Kholins are the ruling family. What they and the Radiants, who are all within the Kholin camp, think weights more than what Highprince Ruthar thinks. If I compare things with Dalinar, the only characters who react negatively to him where the Sadeas’s faction and it was because they believed he had gone “weak”. The ruling class forgave Dalinar, sure it helps the ruling class is his own family, but I do feel the gigantic support Dalinar gets did make a difference.
Yes, of course. We all have our buttons. I do understand your reaction given your experience within the military, which I do not have. I think this is precisely what makes discussion interesting, how we explain our view of events and characters. It is bound to differ. Take one character such as Amaram and we have various reactions within the same fandom and no matter what we may think, we can agree this is interesting.
Amaram is a character I believe could have gone various ways.
Gepeto @76. I do not think it is fair to put some of the blame on Adolin for Amaram’s decision to defect to Odium’s side. Had Adolin confessed publicly before Amaram’s defection, I do not think anything less that Adolin’s being stripped of his Shards, removed as heir to the Kholin princedom and banished from Urithiru 5 minutes after publicly confessing to Sadeas. Even then, I think that Ialai would have continued with her husband’s attack on Dalinar. I think it is too indirect to blame Adolin’s refusal to confess to Amaram’s actions. There are too many variables. Amaram was a devotee of the Vorin Church and wanted to restore glory to the Church. He was a member of an organization (Sons of Honor) whose plan to restore glory to the Church was to start a new Desolation so the Heralds would return. The Heralds would then somehow give the Church its authority.
When Dalinar revealed his visions that the “God” of the Vorin Church was not in fact the Almighty and in fact the Almighty was dead, Amaram had three choices. First, he could have chosen not to believe Dalinar and continue on as he believed. Two, he could have accepted that the fact that the Almighty was not in fact a true God but still believed in the rest of the tenants of the Vorin religion. This could have included the belief that if a new Desolation began, the Heralds would come back and restore the Vorin Church to its glory. Third, Amaram could have done a 180 degree turn and find the exact opposite of his prior beliefs. A defection to the enemy. Amaram took the third option, obviously. Based on the text, there is no evidence that had Adolin confessed to Sadeas’ murder, Amaram still would have not sought out Odium. Dalinar still would have revealed that the Almighty was dead.
Do you think Amaram is the reason that Sadeas’ plan to betray Dalinar and House Kholin at the Battle of the Towers in WoK failed? Had Amaram not killed Kaladin’s men and sold him into slavery, Kaladin would not have started down the path that led him to save Dalinar and, along with the rest of Bridge 4, save the remainder of the Kholin army. Had they not saved the army, Dalinar would not have traded Oathbringer for all of the bridgemen. I think this is too tenuous a connection to blame Amaram. Likewise, I think it is too tenuous a connection to blame Adolin (even in part) on Amaram’s decision to seek out Odium.
I am not sure Jasnah showed she had much training with the sword. (I see that on this argument, EvilMonkey @82 beat me to the punch.) Just because she knows that you stick the pointy end in somebody (to paraphrase Ayra in ASoFaI), does not mean she had training. But even if she did have training, I do not think it is fair to say that no women in Alethkar train in martial arts. We have seen some women train notwithstanding that fact. Lyn (the Kholin scout and Windrunner squire – not the co-author of the re-read) says one of the other female former scout squires had training with the spear. Also, Adolin was willing to break with custom and train Shallan with how to use her Patternblade. It would not surprise me that someone like Jasnah would want to have some sort of training with the sword.
Thanks for reading my musings.
AndrewHB
aka the musespren
@Gepeto – why are you putting the onus on Adolin for Amaram’s defection to the dark side (borrowing from Star Wars). Amaram was on his way to it already since the Way of Kings. Executing all of Kaladin’s men and branding Kaladin a slave for a shard blade showed that his heart was well into the dark side no matter how you look at it.
Is Odium the dark side? For all intent and purposes, he or she is. (I’ll use “HE” from now on). Is Odium evil? I don’t think he is evil the way the Judeo-Christian religion define evil. I see Odium as part of the Yin and the Yang which need each other to make a whole.
Anyway, I am just wondering where you got the idea that Adolin is part of the reason for Amaram’s defection to Odium.
**truly puzzled**
Are others still having problems seeing comments? I can see them using Firefox, but not using IE. This week was the first time this has occurred.
I’m checking because of earlier mentions of this issue, plus I’m not sure who I need to mention it to in order to get things fixed (assuming it is a Tor problem rather than browser).
Adolin is “guilty”, because he technically triggered the chain of events that leaded to Sadeas’s troops turning “evil”. By killing Sadeas, he made them open to Odium’s influence (just like Evil made Dalinar open to Odium’s influence, which caused the Rift incident, but this is another story). I guess this is what Gepeto wants to explain. Poor Amaram was under influence while Dalinar wasn’t. Of course, we all know that he was Odium’s chosen Champion since youth, but Gepeto, as Dalinar’s number one hater, prefers to ignore this fact. Amaram’s situation was harder? It was easier for Dalinar to do a better decisions? For Dalinar, who was praised by his brother, his friends and Alethis society as a whole for all his murders, for all killings, for all blood lust? For Dalinar, who was encouraged by Sadeas to burn the Rift? For Dalinar who was encouraged to be the Blackthorn by everyone around him for the whole life? For Dalinar, who was raised as a warrior? For Dalinar who gets only spits and bile for his honorable behavior in “Way of Kings” and “Words of Radiance”? For Dalinar, who is an alien for all Alethi? Yeah, what an ideal conditions for becoming a better person. And it was harder for Amaram, who was never pushed into all shit he ever done? Who was encouraged by Dalinar to become a good man? Don’t mind, all rhetorical questions. Gepeto is never objective towards Dalinar (and some other characters), I can see only blind hate. And reasons are absolutely clear. The truth is, Dalinar becoming a good man is a miracle considering all the circumstances, and totally his own merit. Want to put yourself in Amarams’s shoes? Why not to put yourself in Dalinar’s. Ah, why bother, I hate him, that’s it.
lordruler @90. I disagree that Gepeto’s arguments in this thread are do to his blind hatred of Dalinar. Further, I think it is unfair to read that from Gepeto’s posts. (Although you are entitled to your opinion).
For what it is worth, Gepeto is not the only one who does not like Flashback Dalinar (assuming, of course, Gepeto actually hates Dalinar – I do not read Gepeto’s posts in this thread as a hatred of Dalinar).
IMO, Gepeto believes that some of Dalinar’s actions and inactions led in part to Amaram’s decision to side with Odium. Others (myself included) feel that Amaram made his decision. Regardless of his motivations, Amaram alone is responsible for his own decisions. Trying to rationalize Amaram’s defection by saying that others’ actions or inactions is to let Amaram off the hook.
Normally I would let Gepeto defend himself. He is more than capable of defending himself. However, IMO, others have sometimes personalized their criticism of Gepeto, rather than trying to explain why they think Gepeto might be wrong. I believe @90 is one such instance. Hence, my response.
Thanks for reading my musings.
AndrewHB
aka the musespren
(Sent from my smartphone)
@91
Not really. You guys are so sensitive sometimes. Take everything, every tiny thing as a personal attack. How this is a personal attack?
“I disagree that Gepeto’s arguments in this thread…”
Not only in this thread. In all the threads.
What I disagree with? With this: “I thus find it was easier for Dalinar to fight back Odium then it was for Amaram.” I explained why I disagree with this. I explained in the above comment why it was hard for Dalinar to confront Odium in his circumstances. You can read it one more time if you want, I’m not gonna write the same things again.
That’s not what you said. Your actual words are:
It’s OK to disagree, but your tone is very dismissive. It’s not your opinion that is “wrong”, but how you express your disagreement.
Just jumping in to add that we do really encourage everyone to avoid taking a dismissive tone in their responses–our aim here is to encourage discussion in a way that’s open and civil, even when folks disagree. This is covered in point #7 in the commenting guidelines, and thanks to everyone above for keeping the conversation on an even keel so far!
@75 Isilel
“Speaking of the argument in this chapter – did Dalinar neglect to share his new insights into the Oathpact with Jasnah prior to this meeting? Because they kinda render her ideas re: forcing the Heralds to do their duty via assassination moot.“
For accuracy, Dalinar did inform Jasnah, and Jasnah did comment on this.
Oathbringer page 415
“The Stormfather said their pact was weakened, but did not say it was destroyed,” Jasnah said “I suggest that we at least see if one of them is willing to return to Damnation. Perhaps they can still prevent the spirits of the enemy from being reborn. It’s either that, or we completely exterminate the parshmen so that the enemy has no hosts” She met Kaladin’s eyes “In the face of such an atrocity, I would consider the sacrifice of one or more Heralds to be a small price“
So the Stormfather said it was weakened. Jasnah feels the chance of preventing the Fused from returning in order to avert genocide is worth trying.
Another note for accuracy. Regarding Amaram, Sadeas himself commented on knowing the real type of person Amaram was. That the paragon of honor was a facade. So to me that says what happened to Kaladin was not an isolated incident.
Words of Radiance page 347
Sadeas snorted “Don’t give me that noble talk. It works fine for others, but I know you for the ruthless bastard you really are.”
Final point of accuracy. As to Jasnah’s fighting skill. She soulcasts some guys, kills 6 normal men with one swipe of a 6 foot long shardblade, throws one (potentially with shardplate), soulcasts the air to oil and then fire to burn a fused, swipes her shardblade through the head of one fused, soulcasts the ground to oil and flames and finally encases a fused in stone. For the soulcasting, she comments on how the amount of stormlight coupled with the realms being so close makes soulcasting frighteningly easy. The 6 normal men, she sliced with the aid of stormlight speed. Finally the fused she “beheaded” as well as any other instances where she has amazing reaction time was due to the realms being closer, she watched the reactions of the spren which let her know exactly where the fused was and where to strike. So she used the shardblade on screen to kill an enemy all of twice.
Oathbringer page 1138 (use #1 of shardblade)
The first soldier swung his sword at her. Jasnah ducked the weapon, then shoved her hand against him, throwing him backward. He crystallized in the air, slamming into the next man, who caught the transformation like a disease. He slammed into another man, knocking him back, as if the full force of Jasnah’s shove had transferred to him. he crystallized a moment later.
Jasnah spun, a Shardblade forming in her gloved safehand, her skirt rippling as she slice through six men in one sweep. The sword vanished as she slapped her hand into the wall of the building behind her, and that wall puffed away into smoke, causing the roof to crash down, blocking the alley between buildings, where other soldiers had been approaching.
Oathbringer page 1150
A soldier with red eyes suddenly hurtled through the air overhead. Adolin ducked, worried about Fused, but it was an ordinary soldier. The unfortunate man crashed into a rooftop. What on Roshar? Instead, he found only Jasnah Kholin, looking completely nonplussed. A glow faded around her, different from the smoke of her Stormlight. Like geometric shapes outlining her….
Oathbringer page 1151
An incredible amount of Stormlight thrummed inside her – more than she’d ever held before. Another group of soldiers broke through Shallan’s illusions and charged over the rubble through the gap in the wall. Jasnah casually flipped her hand toward them. Once, their souls would have resisted mightily. Soulcasting living things was difficult; it usually required care and concentration – along with proper knowledge and procedure. Today, the men puffed away to smoke at her barest thought. It was so easy that a part of her was horrified.
Oathbringer page 1157
Jasnah raised an absent hand without looking, forming a wall of black pitch. A Fused crashed through it, and Jasnah Soulcast a flick of fire, sending the thing screaming and flailing, burning with a terrible smoke.
Oathbringer page 1158 (use #2 of shardblade)
Jasnah stepped aside without looking as the second Fused swooped down – the reactions of spren in Shadesmar allowed her to judge where it was. She turned and swung her hand at the creature. Ivory formed and sliced through the Fused’s head as it passed, sending it curling about itself – eyes burning – and tumbling along the wall top.
Oathbringer page 1178
The ground turned glossy, the surface of the stone Soulcast into oil. Jasnah Soucast a spark from the air, igniting the oil and casting up a field of flames. The Fused raised hands before their faces, stumbling back.
Oathbringer page 1179
Behind, Jasnah waved her hand toward the approaching Fused – and stone formed from air, completely encasing them.
These chapters made me look up my first reactions to them.
My reaction to Veil thinking Shallan was bad at follow through:
It’s funny, since I have a Veil cos-play, some people have started seeing me when they think of Veil. I cos-play Veil because it’s easy as a dark eye, dark haired woman. Yet chapter 40 is when she really started pissing me off. And continued to do so for ages. Sometimes it is very odd to dress as a character you want to slap.
Also, I HATE the way Sanderson wrote her talking about Kaladin’s “stormy eyes.” GAGH!!! She is described as older than Shallan, yet every time I see Veil talking about Kaladin, I see a 13 year old mooning over a boy band member. It drives me nuts. Thankfully, I do not think there will be any of that in book 4. Shallan and Adolin have not exchanged oaths. That’s the end of any love triangle / square issues.
I also had to roll my eyes at Nale’s automatic stance of looking into Shallan’s bothers as the “child close to bonding a spren.” Cultural bias much that he didn’t look at the daughter? But it kept her out of his radar for longer, and saved her life for a few years.
@87: While I agree there were many variables at play and it is nearly impossible to guess how things might have turned out had one element played out differently, I do think Adolin murdering Sadeas was the catalyst for a chain reaction which might have caused more damaged than anything Sadeas/Ialai might have come up with. Of course, since this never happened, we are never going to know, but the complete loss of one of the most powerful princedom within Alethkar at a time where they need every single soldier they can find seems dire. So while it is not technically Adolin’s entire fault, nor his sole responsibility, let’s say he did play a role in this more so considering him killing Sadeas was a snapping moment, a loss of control, no matter how he tries to rationalize it afterwards.
I also mean, the narrative does say it was the belief Dalinar had murdered Sadeas which opened (or weakened) the Sadeas’s soldiers minds sufficiently for the Thrill to move in and to destroy them enough for them to be possessed by Odium’s minions. Would things have turned out differently had Adolin come clean earlier? I thought the question was a fair one to ask.
I agree there are a lot of if in there, but I do not think we should diminish the impact of Adolin’s actions here. By trying to take out an enemy, he might have made things worst. I am surprised no one in-world has commented on it since it is about the firs thoughts I had on my first read. If I were Adolin, this is exactly what I would be thinking, hence my questioning.
Ah and there are no ways of knowing what Ialai might or might not have done had Adolin been found as the culprit. We do not know if she would have still tried to undermined Dalinar. This too relies on a big if.
On Amaram, I agree he made his choice. I will not rob him from his agency, but I do think he was within a position where it was harder to make another choice. Not impossible, but harder. And yes, I put a high value to having family and closed ones support. I can’t say if Amaram didn’t have this, we have no idea, but I can say Dalinar had a lot of it. For me, this is important, but YMMV.
On Jasnah, I maintain my point. If someone were to put with a 6 foot long sword within my hand, I’d struggle to even hold it straight. I wouldn’t be able to stab anything with it, not without some training at first. For the rest, as I said above, I don’t think it is fair to have the narrative rely on readers having to assume Jasnah has had training. Based on what we know, it doesn’t make a lot of sense for her to have it, hence if she does have it, then my expectations are the narrative will mention it, at some point.
@88: Actually, I was putting the Sadeas’s soldiers defection on Adolin, not Amaram’s betrayal. My reason for it is the narrative does imply the soldiers did not choose to turn on Alethkar, they were forced to do so because their mind was weakened by the belief Dalinar had murdered their Highprince and was washing his hands out of it. Had a culprit been found and punished, they might not have had the right inclination to turn to Odium.
Amaram made his own decisions, but I don’t think he was in a favorable position to resist. And yes, Amaram dwindled with the dark side, but so did Dalinar. Dalinar did considerably worst with lesser justifications, from his own admission. We can’t judge the characters based on what they did, Dalinar is the prime example: this man was practically an animal and yet he was given the chance to redeem himself. Dalinar too has not always been honorable. Hence, Amaram had the right to redeem himself too, though he chose not to. It makes him a villain, but I always found he was a villain with a story and layers. Things could have turned out differently, I think.
@90: This is, yet again, an unwarranted rant written at my expense. I have the right to feel the way I do about the characters. I explained it is much harder for me to walk within Dalinar’s shoes because I found his actions more reprehensible than other characters on the cast. I also do not see where you read *hate* in what I have written, I merely said I believed not having to deal with external consequences within his outside entourage might have made things easier for Dalinar. This is not hate, this is offering an alternate view on the character, one which does not agree with you, but one view which does exist within some readers.
You disagree. You can disagree with me without being insulting or condescending. See Andrew below, he disagrees with me, but he sees no reason to do it in a dismissive and insulting way. See EvilMonkey above, he too disagrees, but has managed to do so in a polite and respectful way which helped further the discussion. He explains how, for him, what Amaram did was unacceptable. I understand why he feels this way. I explained how, for me, it is what Dalianr did I find difficult to accept. None of these positions deserve scorn. We can each respect we come from different environment and, as such, we will not react the same way to the same narrative.
So can we please try to argue and to disagree without needing to take it out on each others? More than one interpretation can co-exist within the same narrative. This isn’t a quiz, there are no right nor wrong answers when it comes to explain how we feel about the characters.
Everyone can agree to disagree with me, but please remember all half of interpreting this book is subjective, not objective, but subjective. So we aren’t all going to agree, but it does not mean one side is wrong and one is right. We can read the same quote and not reach the same conclusions.
@91: Thank you Andrew.
@92: You can voice your disagreement without insisting on my person having an agenda, whatever it might me . You can keep my person out of it.
@93: Thank you.
@94: Thank you moderator for jumping in.
@96: I also agree Veil is disrespectful towards Shallan. I do think Veil’s disrespect is actually an expression of the hate Shallan bears towards herself: whenever she is wearing the Veil persona, she bashes herself. Or it is she created Veil to be someone who would hate Shallan, disrespect her, the silly girl when she is the independent sassy woman. And argh, I hate Veil too.
Gepeto,
“This is not hate, this is offering an alternate view”
You cannot offer an alternate views on facts. Facts are facts. By saying thing like this: ” Dalinar did not face external consequences” you’re going against facts. Nothing from the text supports your creative interpretation. You look at these facts, and decide they mean nothing for you. I have pointed out many specific examples from the text, why Dalinar DID face a lot of external factors through his life, and your reaction here is to simply ignore them. Much easier to call my post that I offered all the proofs “a personal attack”. Yeah. I assure you, that was still very polite me.
Personally I could care less about Sadeas’ soldiers either. This was the same army that left Dalinar’s troops to die at the Tower. The just following orders excuse is the same one the Nazis used in WW2. No slack given to those creeps, none of which showed a hint of remorse. To me, those guys were halfway in Odium’s pocket already. If Adolin had not killed Sadeas I’m sure something else would have tipped them to the other side.
I think we can agree that Sadeas was smarter and more crafty than Amaram. He”s also Thrill addited, or he was. I believe that Sadeas had he lived would have easily become Odium’s Champion. In many ways he would have been a better fit for it than Dalinar.
Gepeto @@@@@ 97
Rank and file soldiers are followers. Sadeas soldiers went to Odium because Amaram went to Odium. They might be leaning to the dark side. But, if their leader, who happens to be Amaram, did not go to Odium, then, the Sadeas soldiers would have not gone there.
@100 sheiglagh
It is neither.
Oathbringer page 1091
“I’ve prepared these men for decades” Odium said
Sadeas was killed recently. As EvilMonkey said, if not Sadeas’s death, then something else would have. The straw that broke the camel’s back in this case is immaterial. The camel’s back has been under huge stress for decades. It was going to break regardless. Odium used the Thrill to build it that way on purpose. The Thrill had been in Alethkar so long it was considered a natural phenomena and a beneficial part of their culture.
Gepeto:
I couldn’t disagree more with you on whether we should assume some sword/martial arts training on Jasnah’s part. She is a very logical and consequent person, who has known for years that she would get a shardblade eventually. She also had deep misgivings about what her becoming a Radiant presaged. It only makes sense that she would have acquired proficiency with this rather powerful tool. Vorin gender norms are rather irrelevant here, as she was at that point already a heretic publicly protesting against any such limitations. Nor would it have been particularly difficult for her to find a teacher who wasn’t Vorin or wasn’t devout. And well, secrecy was normal for her as an intelligencer already.
I also completely disagree with you re: the significance of Sadeas’s demise for his troops getting possessed. He wasn’t a leader to inspire fanatic loyalty – it was the way he had been running his army for a very long time that really opened them to the Thrill. Yes, his death made them “patriotically” angry, but from Sadeas’s PoV he was as good as in Odium’s pocket in WoR, and brutal and devious besides. He had been a devil at Dalinar’s shoulder at the Rift already, and would have all too easily become so for the other Highprinces in Urithiru. If he had lived things would have been much worse, as he wouldn’t have been content with sitting idly until sudden, but inevitable betrayal like Amaram did, but would have opposed and attacked the Kholins every step of the way, as well as steering his troops to the same end.
Speaking of Amaram – I was disappointed with how his story went and how easily he let go of his beliefs. Because he really only didn’t have external support because of that. Sons of Honor and his faith would have supported him otherwise – and it would have been quite believable to re-imagine his new information about the Heralds as some kind of test. Some of Kabsal’s arguments to Shallan actually hint at such theological possibilities. That’s what I was expecting prior to OB, frankly. That, and some revelations about Gavilar and his shenangians with the SoH. It would have been interesting for Our Heroes to work with somebbody whom they have reasons to hate and who remains a fanatical Vorin despite Dalinar’s revelations, but is committed to fighting Odium _because_ of his (erroneous) Faith. As such, I found Amaram’s plot pretty unsatisfying – and his confrontation with Jasnah rather unbelievable, but oh, well. I do think that if the Kholins hadn’t snubbed him so thoroughly, he wouldn’t have turned on them. I’d also point out that his household was very fond of him in WoR and if he didn’t have a family who might have supported him, well, it was his choice, wasn’t it? He preached to Adolin about necessity of marriage, but was himself in mid-thirties and single.
Scath @95:
All that ducking, dodging, precision cuts, etc. requires significant coordination – so either great natural talent or training. I am betting on the latter.
@102 Isilel
Personally for me, the speed enhancement from stormlight would account for the ducking and dodging regarding her “human” opponents. As for the fused, as I referenced, I feel judging the reaction of the spren gave Jasnah, although not to the extent of atium, a degree of warning which allows her that level of precision and dodging. I do not think it would take training to when you see a bunch of people drop to the ground suddenly, to think its a good idea to follow suit for instance, thereby avoiding an attack. As per the reference, she watches for the way they look and react, informing her where the fused is without even needing to look directly. Another point regarding the precision of her attacks, her sprenblade is described as long and thin. That sounds like a rapier to me. On top of that shardblades are lighter than one would expect for a sword its size. So ivoryblade would be even lighter than a normal rapier of the same size. Finally both instances where she swings it, have her form it as she moves her hand. So she waves her enclosed hand towards the enemy, the blade forms, slices through, and then dissipates. Maybe I have skills deep down I never knew about, but I feel I could manage that myself and I have never received training in a blade.
Words of Radiance page 1078
She stabbed her hand out in the blink of an eye, mist twisting around her arm and snapping into the form of a long, thin sword pointed at Wit’s neck.
edit: had an additional thought. Her sword also cuts through anything and she only has to aim at the enemy’s core to sever the spine killing it out right. Not much precision needed to do that.
Y’all, Jasnah also traveled – A lot. Her blade is more like a rapier. A rapier is a different style. Ivory does not appear as the 6ft long monsters of the dead blades – which are said over and over to be lighter than they should be. Like Isilel said, she could find a non-Vorin teacher, and keep it quite. She may even have had some self defense non-armed training to enhance her reflexes. With as paranoid about her safety as she is – sitting where she can’t be flanked – this is a logical thought.
We have not heard about Roshar’s version of karate or tai chi, besides the kanatas – so Jasnah might know some.
Odium has been prepping all of the Alethi to be his minions. This group turned because of that prep. It’s the plot twist I didn’t see coming, but once it happen it as an obvious occurrence to me based on their culture.
Amaram – I’m still unsure if I’m happy how that ended, but I’m glad it ended. I’m not happy the queen died off screen. I didn’t realize his stone as her stone until another reader pointed out she had to die for Amaram to have the stone.
@104 Braid Tug
Though I still feel Jasnah does not need sword training to accomplish those two uses of her ivoryblade, I will agree she traveled quite a bit, through Shadesmar. Ivory has shown to be martially inclined and wields a sword. For all we know, he could have trained her while she was in Shadesmar.
Words of Radiance page 20
One took the shape of a man of midnight blackness, though he had a certain reflective cast, as if he were made of oil. No…. of some other liquid with a coating of oil floating on the outside, giving him a dark, prismatic quality. He strode towards her and unsheathed a sword. Shouting would not bring help quickly enough, and the inky litheness of this creature bespoke a speed certain to exceed her own.
@98: Brandon Sanderson encourages his readers to have their own interpretation of the narrative. He has commented on how readers could come to various conclusions using the same textual evidence. It is thus Shallan is allowed to be bisexual, for some readers, even though facts are she is canonically intended to be heterosexual.
Therefore, what you refer to as “creative interpretion” is myself putting a different stock values on various narrative elements than other readers are. You however insist on the word “facts”, so here are some additional ones, using the same format you used.
Was it easier for the man who was admired, respected, loved and worshiped by his own sons despite how badly he had raise them? Was it easier for the man who got to marry the woman he loved, a woman who does not seem bothered by the former acts of cruelty Dalinar is guilty of having done, a woman who’s love hasn’t diminished even after witnessing Dalinar descend into alcoholism? Was it easier for the man who retained the deep respect of his niece despite the fact she has been the one to pick up the broken pieces of his youngest son as he insisted on ignoring his very existence? Was it was easier for a man who’s entire entourage never though any of his actions were reprehensible, who excused each and every one of his deeds no matter what they were? Was it easier for a man no one is insisting needs to be trialed for his war crimes and/or his normal deeds (such as maiming men within bar fights)? Was it easier for a man who’s nephew still managed to love and respect up to a given threshold, I admit this, despite the fact he has ursurped his throne?
Was it easier? Well, it depends on what you believe matters the most, but I dare say what we perceive as “easier” will differ from one reader to the next. I happen to value support from your close ones very highly, others don’t. There is nothing wrong with this, but my “creative interpretation” sure isn’t going against any “facts”. It is merely myself attaching a higher stock values to some narrative elements over others.
For the rest, when more than one person comes forth and tells you, you have been dismissing and condescending, when the moderators themselves see fit to intervene, then it might be, just might be, because the tone and/or the phrasing you employed within your posts was inappropriate. Just saying.
@99: Actually, I’m pretty sure WoB says Sadeas has never been under Odium’s influence. I could be wrong, but I’m pretty sure he was never doing his direct bidding. He was just a mean, power hungry man willing to take all possible means to reach his ends.
It feels to me we are jumping to too many conclusions. How can we be convinced Adolin murdering Sadeas had zero impact into the downfall of an entire princedom?
@100: The narrative says the Thrill opened their mind large enough for sprens to infiltrate them and take control of them. It also says this was only possible because their minds were already weakened because of their anger towards thinking Dalinar murdered Sadeas. So yes, it does seem easy to conclude Adolin was the root cause of the entire debacle.
I recall when I argued (and complained) over Adolin murdering Sadeas having had no impact onto the narrative and no ramifications, readers were quick to point out it did have ramifications: it caused the Sadeas princedom to fall to Odium.
What happened to this argument?
@102: About Jasnah, my point is this line of thinking requires readers to give a background story to a character to explain an unlikely skill the character demonstrated. You say it only makes sense she would acquire proficiency with a powerful weapon and I say it makes sense Jasnah has likely never been in a position to commander such training not to forget she was very absorbed by her research. Therefore, if Jasnah indeed had training, then yes, I expect this will be mentioned within future books. I do not expect readers to be left trying to guess where she even got those skills.
Also, as a reader, it is not natural for me to think of Jasnah as a “fighter” or someone having “martial abilities”, so when she shows she does have them, I would prefer if the narrative found a way to justify them. In the end, I however trust Brandon to give us a rational, in his own time. It might come within another book.
Sadeas never was within Odium’s pocket… There actually is a WoB about that, I am pretty sure there is. He was his own man. Evil. Bad. Negative. A villain, but one serving his own interests, not Odium’s. And I would argue Sadeas was way too controled to be interesting to Odium. Odium wants a puppet, a man he can control through his emotions, not a cold-minded calculated miscreant who thinks before he acts. It doesn’t make Sadeas a better man, but I think it makes him a less suitable man for Odium’s purposes.
I also insist on saying we do not know how things might have turned out had he been left alive. Readers are currently assuming the murder was a good thing and/or the murder had no side effects, what if this isn’t entirely true? Many Highprinces were against Dalinar in WoR, most of them are now working with him. While it is safe to assume Sadeas would have never come around, as he professed he never would not, once faced with the real Desolation, we do not know how things might have turned out.
And are we all forgetting how readers once were arguing Sadeas had no more cards to play but boasting and lauching enmpty threats? I remember a time where many weren’t convinced Sadeas still posed a threat. I disagreed back then, but now I am not sure what I think anymore. Perhaps they had a point.
On Amaram, I agree with you. What you say is in-line with my own thoughts as I too believe he might have turned out differently had he have a stronger personal support and had the Kholins been wanting to work with him instead of trialing him. I too was hoping for a different turns of events as I did feel the character had potential. Sure, he did awful things, but so did Dalinar. I read him more as “grey” than “black”, but things happened differently and he turned “black”. It doesn’t change the fact I once believed the same character might have chosen differently.
I also liked the idea of the Kholins being forced to work with someone from an opposing faction, uniting forces to face a common foe. It had… potential, but it wasn’t where the author wanted to go. I have read some level of unsatisfaction from some readers over this, mostly those who enjoyed playing the devil’s advocate with Amaram’s character. There were a few of those readers, back in the old days.
I too wondered about Amaram’s marital status. I too thought it was odd. Adolin gets a lot of pressure to be married, but all around him are single older men…. Odd.
Regarding Amaram, assuming he really was a true believer, in some ways it doesn’t surprise me that he went full bore defecting. I have witnessed similar things where when a betrayal occurs, it is sometimes those that were once most invested or the most ‘faithful’ end up doing a complete 180 because they feel so betrayed, duped, or what have you. I’ve also known people who tend to be extremists regardless of what they actually believe, and even if they end up changing beliefs (I’m thinking of somebody I know who basically switched political sides) they still end up being…extreme.
Odium used the Thrill as a method of influence as the events at Thalylen City prove out. Those that are Thrill addicts are therefore more prone to work with Odium. I say this because I want to harken back to Sadeas’s POV during WOR. He is reflecting on Dalinar in the scene and tangentially talking about his feelings, saying that he feels nothing except when in battle, how he longed for the Thrill and how life was grey without it. Paraphrased but that’s the jist of it. Sounds familiar doesn’t it. Dalinar reported those exact same feelings between battles, the same sentiments. Judging by what we’ve seen in the narrative so far it’s safe to conclude that Odium had more than one arrow in his quiver. It isn’t explicit but I believe it to be a reasonable conclusion that Sadeas would have made a formidable champion for Team O. He was the second most dangerous person on Roshar because of his utter ruthlessness and supreme selfish self-interest. It’s gotta be bad when even the Ghostbloods won’t work with you.
Btw, I never said Adolin’s murder didn’t have consequences. It very well could have been the catalyst to turn the Sadeas princedom to Team O. My argument was that they were ripe to turn. If it Sadeas had lived they still would have turned. And with Sadeas at the head of that army they would’ve been 10 times more dangerous. The coalition likely never gets off the ground while he lived. He would have been a constant divisive force and a knife at Dalinar’s back, his army a visible and ever present threat. And with the might-makes-right political atmosphere of Alethkar he would have split the nation in two. Sadeas was never the type to be out of cards to play. Consequently that’s why I think the Ialai problem still has legs. She’s just as dangerous as Sadeas was. Her star is down right now but she isn’t out of it while she breathes.
As someone with Asperger’s I want to say one reason I personally dislike using the emotional argument (dispite knowing how effective it can be at times to bring emotions, and my own personal experiences into things,) is that it feels manipulative and dishonest to try and win an argument that way. Because you aren’t winning the argument because you’ve convinced someone of the logic or the ethics of your argument but because you’ve made them FEEL a certain way. (What was it lift said in Edgedancer?) And this type of argueing is the least conducive to finding out the truth. If I bring feelings into my arguments at all it’s mainly along the lines of “how do you think people are going to FEEL when you treat them like that.” I know this is stupid of me but I’d rather loose a debate while not trying to manipulate people then win it by doing so. And something that frustrates about my approach is despite the fact that I feel like I am at least trying to be honest the way I deal with people and our discussions it often feels like to get any attention at all in this world you have shout, or be provocative. In short, the approach that I feel is more manipulative and dishonest seems to be what works best and that frustrates me to no end.
I mention this here because while it IS debatable if Jasnah is on the spectrum or not, IF SHE IS this might help give some perspective
@107 Lisamarie
That is a very good point. Extremists are extremists because of the individual, not necessarily the ideology. Some ideologies tend to attract extremists, or even encourage such fanaticism but for it to take hold it takes a particular form of individual. It would make sense to me that if an individual held so tightly to a belief, which for him excused all actions he took in support of this belief, then once said belief was revealed to be false he would seek to cling to another even if that belief was in total opposition to his prior one.
@110 BenW
That is also a very good point. Time and again when Jasnah makes arguments for something, they are logical and she only gets defensive when those arguments are attacked without a valid well reasoned cause. The times she does let herself get carried away, she admits it, admonishes herself, and tries to do better. I see the Queenship as a means to put Jasnah temporarily in the background, keeping things together while Brandon digs further into Dalinar, Kaladin, and Shallan in view of the world wide war on Roshar. Once we reach the back five books, Jasnah will return to the forefront as one of the main protagonists of that series, and become more fully fleshed out as we delve into her past that made her into the badass radiant she is today. Ah the level of patience to wait 15 years to get to read it (assuming Jasnah ends up at book number 8 as one of Brandon’s WoB hinted but was not certain). I am sure it will be well worth the wait :)
@111 Thank you for your response. Well this sort of a tangent but have you ever read the webcomic Girl Genius?
There’s a particularly good rant by a supporting character, (While he is being attacked no less, and beating up his attacker) that I want to quote.
“Always I try to be reasonable. To be fair. To talk to people. And no one ever takes it as anything other than weakness. You listen to me try to be civilized. And you think- “Oh he’s nothing. Him we can ignore. We can do whatever we want. He won’t stop us.” Because no one ever takes me seriously, unless I threaten, and shout like a cut-rate stage villain. Well you know what? I can do crazy. I really can. And it looks like I am going to have to. Agatha is in danger. This whole town is in danger. If I am going to be able to help her at all, I’ll have to give up this being reasonable garbage and show you idiot’s what kind of a madboy you’re really dealing with!” What’s more once he comes out of his rant he realizes that must be how his father feels all the time.
The main reason I bring this up. Is because I could see Alethi culture, combined with Jasnah’s statement of how fighting makes you stronger, but also calloused. And she fears she has picked up more of the latter. Means this is a rant that could have easily flown from her at some point. (With a few minor word changes but the basic substance unchanged.) And so I thought it was worth bringing up for this reason.
@112 BenW
Very true. To further your reference back to her great heart to heart with Dalinar.
Oathbringer page 401
“They will try” Jasnah said “to define you by something you are not. Don’t let them. I can be a scholar, a woman, a historian, a Radiant. People will still try to classify me by the thing that makes me an outsider. They want, ironically, the thing I don’t do or believe to be the prime marker of my identity. I have always rejected that, and will continue to do so. You decide how you are defined. Don’t surrender that to them. They will gleefully take the chance to define you, if you allow it.”
edit: after typing that quote, I realize it is all the more poignant for this scene. Jasnah does not want to commit genocide. She does not want everyone she loves to be endangered. But she feels based on the information she has, these options need to be explored. It is that choice, that she feels Kaladin is defining her on, so she feels attacked and seeks to defend it. In the end she uses the lessons she has learned in her life to take Kaladin’s adversity towards the subject to still be overall beneficial to the war effort, and seek to find more options.
@113 scath
Defining someone who advocates genocide as someone who advocates genocide is entirely fair and accurate. Our choices define who we are.
As a former slave, Kaladin has a rather different perspective on this issue than Jasnah Kholin, daughter of a king. He doesn’t think that they should have a polite, disinterested discussion about committing genocide. As we see later on, Kaladin thinks that parshmen lives are just as real and valuable as human lives, and he refuses to define them as “Other” or somehow less.
Kaladin wants to protect humans and parshmen equally; he refuses to pick sides, to dehumanize his enemies. If Jasnah did attempt to create a “Final Solution” to the parshman problem, he’d be fighting with the former slaves against their former owners, and Bridge Four would be right behind him.
@114 dptullos
(using blue between quotes to denote the quotes vs my own comments)
Oathbringer page 412
“We must curb the voidbringer assault” Jasnah said “we can’t let them secure too great a foothold”
Tactically sound and no mention of genocide
Oathbringer page 412
“Of course they’re our enemies” Jasnah said “they’re in the process of conquering the world. Even if your reports indicates they aren’t immediately destructive as we feared, they are still an enormous threat”
Stating the obvious, and asking to be realisitic. The parshmen as a threat must be discussed
Oathbringer page 412
“I can believe” Jasnah said “that the common parshmen have such a simple motive. But their leaders? They will pursue our extinction”
Again, stating the issues as they are. The powers ruling the parshmen want the humans dead. This needs to be discussed. Still no advocacy for genocide that I can see
“The parshmen are the key” Jasnah said shuffling through some pages of notes. “Looking over what you discovered, it seems that all parshmen can bond with ordinary spren as part of their natural life cycle. What we’ve been calling voidbringers are in fact a combination of a parshman with some kind of hostile spren or spirit”
Explaining the function of their enemy based on the information provided by Kaladin which needs to be discussed. Still no advocacy of genocide
Oathbringer page 412
“Negotiate?” Jasnah said “Uncle, these creatures are craft, ancient and angry. They spent millennia torturing the heralds just to return and seek our destruction”
Reminding everyone the dire nature of their situation. The parshmen can be as nice as can be, it still doesn’t change the issue that exists with the fused
Oathbringer page 414
“Not ambitious enough” Jasnah said more firmly “by the Stormfather’s explanation, the fused are immortal. Nothing stops their rebirth now that the heralds have failed. This is our real problem. Our enemy has a new endless supply of parshmen bodies to inhabit, and judging by what the good captain has confirmed through experience, these fused can access some kind of surgebinding. How do we fight against that?”
Again, the fused are a huge issue that will not go away, regardless if you negotiate or not. This needs to be confronted.
Oathbringer 414
“Pardon Uncle” Jasnah said “While I don’t disagree with that first step, now is not the time to think only of the immediate future. If we are to avoid a Desolation that breaks society, then we’ll need to use the past as our guide and make a plan”
End of the World people, we need to be proactive. We cannot just react when the very existence of humanity hangs in the balance. (still no mention of genocide)
Oathbringer page 414
“Yes. The answer is obvious. We need to find the Heralds. Then we need to kill them. The Stormfather laid it out “Jasnah said unperturbed “The Heralds made a pact. When they died, their souls traveled to Damnation and trapped the spirits of the Voidbringers, preventing them from returning. The Stormfather said their pact was weakened, but did not say it was destroyed” Jasnah said “I suggest we at least see if one of them is willing to return to Damnation. Perhaps they can still prevent the spirits of the enemy from being reborn. It’s either that, or we completely exterminate the parshmen so that the enemy has no hosts” she met Kaladin’s eyes “In the face of such an atrocity, I would consider the sacrifice of one or more Heralds to be a small price”
my comments only from here on
Thhheeerrrrrreeeee we go! There is the mention of genocide. So basically the fused want all human life dead. Period. They can possess the parshmen. Jasnah and Co. do not know the parshmen have to be open to the change to bond with a fused. Rlain was not present with Venli when it happened, and Venli only knows because the voidspren explained it to her when she was about to bond a fused herself but instead became a Regal because she refused. So lets say humans go and negotiate with the nice parshmen. Next time they talk to the parshmen, he or she is possessed by the fused that set a trap and kill them. So the fused is the real problem. Lets try sending the heralds back and see if that stems the time. Are you mad!?!?! Well as we have been saying, negotiating with the parshmen is pointless as long as they can be taken over by the fused who want us dead. So unless you want us to wipe out the entire parshmen race and commit genocide, we have to be willing to look into and try other options such as the heralds.
The definition of advocacy is the support of a particular cause or policy. To me it looks like Jasnah wants to find out information to better fight the fused, and even provides a means to avoid genocide. But simply because she is the one that confronted that aspect of the issue, then she is portrayed as an emotionless, crazy, bloodthirsty, evil person who wants to kill anyone that disagrees with her (this is the impression Kaladin is giving, not anyone posting on this page). So Jasnah defends herself. Now you are perfectly entitled to disagree. I was just hopefully giving a better explanation as to why I connected the two scenes and feel she is being unjustly defined by the genocide comment when the suggestion she made is actually trying to avoid such occurrence.
edit: Just to clarify, I am in no way saying Jasnah was an angel in the exchange with Jasnah, just see my earlier post. She should not have come out as harsh with Kaladin, but Kaladin should have been more professional, and Dalinar should have managed the meeting better. This is the first time these three Radiants are working together for the concerted War Effort. Kaladin worked with Dalinar before, and Dalinar worked with Jasnah before, but never all three. There is going to be some learning and growing pains. True given the dire nature of the situation, they cannot afford to have much of that, but it is to be expected. As I said, the fact that they do ultimately come to agreement, and move forward from the meeting I think is a good sign.
@115 scath
“It’s either that, or we completely exterminate the parshmen so that the enemy has no hosts.”
Advocacy of genocide. Plan A is sending the Heralds back to Damnation to renew the Oathpact; Plan B is kill all the parshmen.
Jasnah is reasonable, and her logic is sound. But the fact remains that her main backup plan is “kill millions of thinking, feeling sentient beings to deprive the enemy of a strategic resource”. She doesn’t jump right into advocating genocide because Jasnah is a calm, rational person who views murdering an entire species as a last resort. However, she definitely considers genocide a viable option if other strategies don’t work.
Kaladin does not think murdering an entire species of escaped slaves is all right, even if every other strategy fails. Jasnah isn’t emotionless, crazy, or bloodthirsty, but she does clearly feel that parshmen lives are less valuable and real than human lives, and she’s willing to sacrifice “them” to save “us” if she has to. Kaladin is willing to fight her if she tries.
@116 dptullos
There is still that next line you left out
“In the face of such an atrocity, I would consider the sacrifice of one or more Heralds to be a small price”
Kaladin is saying the idea of the Heralds is nuts. Jasnah is saying based on the options we got, its either that, or wipe them out. She would rather chance one or more Heralds than wipe out an entire people. Stating the fact that every parshmen is a potential enemy, and the only way to stop it for good is to remove every host isn’t advocating it. Advocating it is saying it is the only way, pushing that way, and arguing it must be that way. By that very definition, she is advocating her plan regarding the heralds, not genocide. If we are stuck in a hallway of a building that is on fire, with a stairway full of smoke, and I say to you we have to run through the stairway to get out. You tell me I am nuts, that we will die from smoke inhalation or perhaps engulfed by flames in stairway. I respond well unless you want to jump out the 10 story window and die for certain, I think the smoke and fire is the better option. I do not see that as me advocating suicide by jumping out a window simply because I mentioned it was one of the only other options we had.
edit: And that goes back to what she said about being defined by what she is not. She advocated confronting issues, and using the heralds, but because she mentioned the horrible alternative, that is then what defines her. It doesn’t matter she came up with an idea that could potentially avert such an atrocity. Simply stating it was a possibility means she desires it. Again not saying you are saying that, but that is how I feel Kaladin is acting. Personally had he attempted to provide any other realistic alternatives, I believe Jasnah would have whole heartily listened and contributed.
@117 scath
We both agree that Jasnah prefers her plan with the Heralds. However, if that plan doesn’t work, she’s willing to consider genocide as an alternative approach. Kaladin does not consider genocide an option, and would not allow it under any circumstances.
Kaladin doesn’t have alternative approaches, but he doesn’t have Jasnah’s knowledge or her intelligence. What he does have is the ability to say that some methods are acceptable. For Jasnah, genocide is simply another tool to fall back on if her first plan fails; for Kaladin, it’s a crime that he would never commit, regardless of how desperate the circumstances were.
Can we AT LEAST admit the fact that Jasnah HERSELF ADMITS that the genocide, if it came to that would be an atrocity.
I am just putting this out there as an attempt to find common ground between both sides of the issue to start with
@118 dptullos
Thing is Kaladin does not have any approaches. At all. I guess where our disconnect comes in is you feel simply because Jasnah mentioned the option, that means shes willing to do it and by Kaladin’s reaction he is not. I think it isn’t exactly fair to compare what Jasnah would do compared to Kaladin as in this meeting I do not feel he is of the right mind. Not saying killing people is the right mind. I mean his list of ideas on how to approach the war effort is:
not all parshmen may want to kill all humans
1. can we just not fight them?
but the fused do want to kill all humans
2. fine lets just fight the fused
but the fused possess the parshmen and will possess more parshmen
3. can we just not fight them?
I feel it is hard to give Kaladin the moral ground here when he isn’t exactly giving any realistic solutions. I mean if all I say is I do not want bad things to happen to anyone, while bad things are happening all around me, does that mean I am morally superior to those that are actively trying to deal with the bad things? I think I sufficiently explained my perspective and it comes down to agreeing to disagree. I respect your view of Jasnah though it differs from my own
@119 BenW
I do not know if this has come out different than intended, but I do not feel myself and dptullos are arguing. We just see the issue fundamentally different. I do not think common ground is needed in this case as both views on this are equally valid. I feel stating there are two choices does not intrinsically mean you are pushing both of them, and that by denying the existence of a second choice does not mean an individual holds a morally higher ground. dptullos feels (correct me if I am wrong), by Jasnah mentioning the second choice, she is asserting it is a valid option, and by doing so means she considers doing it and sees it as acceptable. While Kaladin choosing to not acknowledge the choice at all has the higher moral ground as that by extension would mean for Kaladin genocide is never an acceptable option ever. So as I said, agree to disagree.
@Scáth I don’t necessarily disagree with what you are saying. I am just trying to bridge the gap in the different way of looking at things you both have. I figured it was easier to that the best way to do that was by taking the one point that was obvious to both parties as a starting point.
For myself while genocide may never be an option I am willing to consider at the same time, I ALSO believe that reality must NOT be ignored and simply doing so like Kaladin does isn’t a good option.
Personally, I think this is the time where it’s best to start asking for alternative solutions, or even avenues to research them, and let’s be honest all parties fell short in that matter
@121 BenW
I understand.
I whole heartily agree. No one in this meeting is without fault, but I do have hope based on how it ultimately gets resolved that they will learn to work together better and accomplish great things :)
@115:
Not sure if I’m understanding you right, but Venli didn’t refuse. Odium intervened and kicked the Fused out. He instead made Venli an Envoy.
@123 Austin
Oathbringer page 573
“Great power” Ulim said “You’ve been chosen. You’re special. But you must embrace this. Welcome it. You have to want it, or the powers will not be able to take a place in your gemhearts.”
So she definitely has to be open to it, but rereading the section also confirms as you said she did not refuse it. That Odium chose her for Envoy form instead.
Oathbringer page 574
With difficulty, she opened herself up to this force. This was just like adopting a new form, right? Pain seared her insides, as if someone had set fire to her veins. She screamed, and sand bit her tongue. Tiny coals ripped at her clothing, singeing her skin. And then, a voice. “WHAT IS THIS?” It was a warm voice. An ancient, paternal voice, kindly and enveloping. “Please” Venli said, gasping in breaths of smokey air “Please”. “YES” the voice said “CHOOSE ANOTHER. THIS ONE IS MINE”
Oathbringer page 577
“You were to bear a soul I have fought beside for thousands of years. She was turned away, and you were reserved. Odium has a purpose for you. Revel in that, and mourn not your friend’s passing. Odium will bring vengeance at long last to those we fight.
@124 – Looks like we were both right! Though I wonder what Odium saw in Venli that made him take notice…
@120 scath
I agree that Kaladin is not particularly strong on the planning end of things. He’s intelligent, but he’s not a scholar and strategist like Jasnah. I greatly enjoy her character, especially her dedication to honest and open inquiry.
As it turns out, you do have to choose to open yourself to possession by the Fused, which means that a “hearts and minds” approach is both morally and strategically desirable.
@122 scath
I’m divided on Jasnah’s future success as Queen. On the one hand, she’s intelligent, ruthless, and very capable at plotting and scheming, all qualities that the Alethi respect. On the other hand, I’m not sure the Alethi will appreciate an outspoken heretic as their new ruler.
Gavilar seems to have been the ideal Alethi monarch, equally gifted on the battlefield and in the council chamber. He was also a member of half the secret societies on Roshar, and I still don’t know what his actual motives were.
@125 Austin
Venli was the one to discover stormform and convince the Parshendi to undergo the transformation into the forbidden form associated with their old gods. Her actions made the Everstorm possible.
@126 I originally directed this towards scath but I think it bares repeting towards you as well
Also I want to repeat it and combine it with what I said at 110 which is
If it’s not clear why this all is relevant I’ll try to clarify my point here. As you say a leader who isn’t a hereitc may indeed fare better. But pretending to be something she is not would probably come across as dishonest (and possibly even manipulative?) to Jasnah and as such she is forced to work with the tools she has. She can pick her battles, about what battles are important to fight. (And we see this. She doesn’t try to go around converting people to her viewpoints, but she does stand by her own, when it comes to her aethism.) But as a result of not being able to use the emotional type of argument, because (if I am guessing correctly) it comes of as emotionally manipulative and dishonest to her she is left at a disadvantage against the members of the Alethi court who are willing to do so. And probably gets frustrated and ends up ranting a bit.
@everyone?
Building on that I am personally more willing to talk about my own emotional experiences and how they have shaped me with those I am close to (even if it is weird internet psuedo-closeness like to those I REGULARLY communicate with on the internet like you all) then to random strangers because I know them well enough (or feel that I do to feel like I won’t be manipulating them but just being open about my feelings. Yet there was at least one time when I was desperate enough about something (an issue that crossed over BOTH etics and personal experince for me) that I was willing to take a conversation on youtube out of logic and bring up a very personal experince on the one in a million chance that it would make a difference to ANYONE. Both the fact that I felt I had to do so, and the fact that it DID NOT make a difference broke me down in tears (And that’s all I am willing to say on the details) that being said I would not be surprised if part of Jasnah’s development in the back five is being willing to leave herself open in public to those kinds of feelings in an attempt to make a difference.
In another note I remember when Kaladin said that sometimes all of the logic in the world won’t make a difference in the overpowering need to get what you want. I have sometimes had the opposite problem. Sometimes all the empathy in the world for someone’s situation (or a group of people’s situation) can’t get past my frustration with their inability to see logic and how their choices are only making their situation worse. It doesn’t mean I don’t care about them it just means I find myself banging my head against a wall trying to understand what to do about it, or how to approach the situation. And this is as someone who doesn’t actually engage in politics in the real world (outside of voting) but who often thinks about these things as I can’t help but care about people.
@126 dptullos
Thing is, I think Kaladin is capable of better. When Dalinar was working on how to deal with the Highprinces after the Tower, Kaladin contributed tactically and intelligently. Personally I think he reacted the way he did in this meeting to begin to set up what happens in Kholinar. Basically he could have offered more info, maybe even suggested discussing things with Rlain, who could have suggested that most forms need to be open to, so the same could stand for the fused. It wouldn’t be concrete, but it would be something to work with. Instead because he was still conflicted and upset from his time with the parshmen, the best he could offer is just not fighting them. This is impossible as that does not stop the parshmen from attacking, nor from the fused possessing them if they decided not to attack but are duped into bonding. Which is exactly what happened in Kholinar. Kaladin tried to ask everyone to just stop fighting, but they continued and people died. I am not saying Kaladin should be faulted by how he reacted. It is very traumatic for him. But what happened in that scene demonstrates how unrealistic his suggested solution was.
Just as none of the parties come out clean, also none of them come out wholly dirty. Kaladin was right to provide the information and point out the parshmen themselves dont necesarily want war. One possibility could be a propaganda campaign. Air drop flyers, and other ideas. Show the parshmen that the fused do not have their best interest in mind. Get enough parshmen to refuse the change, and Odium’s army dwindles. Jasnah was right (in my opinion) to provide all options, and face the facts of the matter. This is a war. They cannot stay on the defensive otherwise they will lose. Dalinar was right to provide a middle ground between the two. He showed Kaladin that although he is willing to negotiate, there are realities of war that cannot be ignored. He showed Jasnah that although the Desolation is pressing, nothing would be gained by acting rashly. That is why I have hope for this group.
As to Jasnah being a heretic. I do not feel it will be as great a hindrance as that. The Vorin church will not be thrilled, but we have already seen Jasnah lead a research team that comprises Scholars, Stormwardens, and Ardents. Three very disparate groups, two of which are very contrary to her beliefs, yet Navani marvels on how effectively Jasnah has organized them all and gotten them to work together towards a common goal. This says to me she does possess the skills to work with people who disagree with her, and still produce results.
@127 BenW
Those are all very interesting insights :)
Isilel @45 – you are correct, and in my reference document it clearly says that the divine attributes associated with Battar are “Wise/Careful.” I’m not sure where we drew this from – memory, or a quick glance at something else, or some weird mental conflation of Careful and Loving, or… who knows. Anyway thanks for catching that, and we’ll make sure it’s noted correctly in the future.
Noblehunter @70 – I’m going to be laughing all day at this: “Maybe I’m being unreasonable but I really hate the Fused. I like obsessive vengeance as much as the next guy but they’re taking it a bit far. You’re supposed to dig two graves, not one ordinary grave and one with a revolving door.” Priceless!
(Yes, I’m finally catching up on last week’s comments. I blame school starting and me getting a terrible horrible no good very bad head cold…)
Re-reading all the discussion on Jasnah and if she advocates genocide – when I first read it, I thought she was (and was horrified by it). But now I wonder if her words could be read in such a way that she was throwing it out there as a nonstarter, almost sarcastically. There are many different tones/inflections I could imagine reading this conversation in which have different implications.
Has anyone else here ever read Animorphs? One reviewer (poparena specfically) of Animorphs described the characters of Tobias and Marco as two of the most emotionally driven characters in the series but their emotions lead them in DRASTICALLY different directions. I can kind of see that dynamic with Kaladin and Jasnah here.
We KNOW Kaladin is very emotionally driven, and WHAT LITTLE we see behind Jasnah’s mask paints her in as a much more emotional person that she lets on. So yeah that idea of emotionally driven characters whose emotions lead them in drastically different directions is something of a possibility I can see playing out here. I just thought I would share this thought and would like to hear what others think about it.
@132 BenW
I have read Animorphs waaaaaaaay back in the day. I feel like I read your ideas elsewhere. Is it regarding Tobias if I recall correctly?
@133. Yeah. Tobias and Marco. Even in light of the new WOB. (and our other discussion about Jasnah) I don’t think this potential parallel would necessarily change.
@134 BenW
From what I recall of your parallel, I agree, I think it would still apply.