Hey hey, Sanderson fans! It’s Thursday morning, and we all know what happens on Thursday morning. It’s Cosmere reread time! This week we rejoin Moash in—and above—the parshmen warcamp outside Kholinar, where preparations are being made to assault the city. Much to his surprise, he meets someone none of us expected to see again.
Lyn is busy with life and haunting and things, so Aubree and Alice will be covering this chapter. As a reminder, we’ll be discussing spoilers for the ENTIRE NOVEL several places in the reread this week. There are also minor spoilers for the Mistborn series in the epigraph, and as always there may be spoilers for … well, anything… in the comments. Watch your footin’, is all I’m saying. But if you haven’t read ALL of Oathbringer, best to wait to join us until you’re done.
Chapter Recap
WHO: Moash
WHERE: outside Kholinar
WHEN: 1174.2.2.5 (eight days after his previous chapter)
Moash carries lumber with Kaladin’s old team of parshmen, but gets frustrated and demands to speak to someone in charge. One of the Fused takes him up in the air, where he is met by another Fused: the one he killed back in the Frostlands, in a new body. She is impressed with his passion, and after a long conversation, she sends him back to the ground. He makes his way back to his parshmen team and prepares to teach them some basic spear skills.
The Singing Storm
Title: An Ancient Singer’s Name
“Then what does anger you? What is your passionate fury, Moash, the man with an ancient singer’s name?”
AA: Interesting, that names have transferred from one race to another. It wouldn’t have surprised me in one of the nationalities that crossbred with the Singers, but as far as we know, Moash has no Horneater, Veden, or Herdazian blood, does he? I keep wondering if this is going to have further significance. I don’t recall that we learned any more about it by the end of the book.
AP: No, we don’t learn any more about it in Oathbringer. But I totally agree that we will see this come up again. It may be a tipping point in why the Fused were willing to trust him. I really hope we see the background on where the name came from. I hope there’s a story there, like it being a family name.
Heralds
Jezrien x 4 here for Moash. Herald of Kings, patron of Windrunners, with the divine attributes of Protecting and Leading.
AA: I don’t know whether to think Jezrien is here to represent Moash’s efforts to protect and lead the parsh slaves, or if it’s one of those “associated madness” things, reflecting Moash’s conversation with Leshwi and his apparent abandonment of humans.
AP: Moash does start down the “Dark Windrunner” path here. I would associate it with his attempts to protect the Parshmen.
Icon
Not Bridge Four—in other words, it’s Moash again.
AP: Yay! :D
Epigraph
I would have thought, before attaining my current station, that a deity could not be surprised.
Obviously, this is not true. I can be surprised. I can perhaps even be naive, I think.
AA: This is one epigraph that made it seem obvious that the writer of this letter is Sazed/Harmony. I say “seem obvious” because he’s the only active Vessel whose Ascension we actually saw. There’s no reason this couldn’t be one of the original 16, since they all attained a new station in the event, but in this instance the “obvious” answer turns out to be the correct one. I have to wonder what was in Hoid’s letter to make him so surprised. (We might learn more about this in the upcoming epigraphs, but I’ll wait to discuss it then, if it comes up.)
Stories & Songs
The Fused regarded him and grinned.
“Someone in charge,” Moash repeated.
The Voidbringer laughed, then fell backward into the water of the cistern, where he floated, staring at the sky.
Great, Moash thought. One of the crazy ones. There were many of those.
AA: Now we’re starting to see that things are not all strength and vengeance among the ancestors, though we were told that would be the case. Some of the ancient souls have gone completely round the twist after all these millennia. I won’t presume to guess whether it’s the 4500 years trapped on Braize, or if they were already going gnarly due to the cycle of returning, stealing appropriating a body, fighting, and dying. Seems like it could be awkward, to have a bunch of your “gods”—a significant portion of your “experienced fighters”—being thoroughly bonkers. Some might make great berserkers, but from the behavior of this one, some of them could be a real liability!
AP: Oh, totally. As we see with the Fused who makes a saw out of carapace, it’s not only the warriors who get brought back. I wonder what the criteria is for who gets new bodies and who doesn’t. Will some of these insane Fused be denied new bodies when they die? Or is the resurrection process automatic? It also definitely has to shake the faith the Parshmen have in their “gods”.
“Look, you’re one of the leaders?”
“I’m one of the Fused who is sane,” she said, as if it were the same thing.
AA: Which, of course, it is. The Fused run the show. The ones who are complete whack jobs, like the one above, are pretty well useless. The ones who retain … well, sanity might be a lofty term for it, but at least coherence, those are the ones who give the orders and make the decisions.
AP: To a point at least. I’m curious as to what the hierarchy is among the Fused. The sane ones, anyway. Who are the actual decision makers? How much autonomy do they have?
AA: I think we eventually get a little more info from Venli’s POV, but there’s still so much to learn about them! But now we know that they new bodies when needed, anyway:
“Wait,” Moash said, cold. “When I killed you?”
She regarded him, unblinking, with those ruby eyes.
“You’re the same one?” Moash asked. That pattern of marbled skin … he realized. It’s the same as the one I fought. But the features were different.
AA: There’s the answer to some recent discussion, in case you’d forgotten. The pattern of marbling is connected to the soul, but the physical features belong to the body. There have been other hints that there is more to the color patterns than we yet know; given that Book Four is expected to center on the Eshonai/Venli story, maybe we’ll find out in a couple of years. (Uh… yeah. Shoot. That doesn’t sound nearly soon enough.) Anyway, somewhere along the line we’ll find out if the marbling is Cognitive or Spiritual, and what it means in the big picture.
AP: There’s multiple parts to this too. We have 1—the colors themselves: red/white, red/black, white/black, red/white/black, and 2—the patterns that the marbling takes, which seem more identifying, like fingerprints. But also, the physical features of the Parshendi change based on their rhythms and the associated forms. I don’t know if that’s applicable to the Fused as well, or if they effectively are locked into one form.
AA: Oooooooh. I hadn’t thought about whether the Fused use the different forms. We see one of them making carapace shaped to his will, but … hmmmm. Is their form dependent on the form of the one who give them a body? Given the need for spren to bond with the gemheart in order to change forms, I’d be tempted to bet that each Fused has a single preferred form, but that’s just a guess.
“This is a new body offered to me in sacrifice,” Leshwi said. “To bond and make my own, as I have none.”
AA: Correct me if I’m wrong, but isn’t this the first place we are specifically told that the Fused take over the bodies of parshmen? And the first solid information that they are able to just keep doing it? By the time it’s all said and done, we know that the ancient ones used to have to go back to Braize when their adopted body was killed (sort of like the Heralds), to wait for a new Desolation. This time around, with the Oathpact so desperately weakened, all they have to do is wait for the next Everstorm to snag a new body and keep going.
And of course the parshmen are delighted to give their bodies to the Fused… Or not. I can almost see a person being willing to give their body to a Leshwi, who will at least be effective; but that dude in the earlier quote? He gets a body to wear, but I can’t help thinking it’s a waste of resources, at the very least.
(Ugh. The whole thing creeps me out, because I know they aren’t really telling the parsh what’s going to happen when they volunteer/are shanghaied for Fusing. Thinking of them as “resources” makes my skin crawl.)
AP: They are obviously not telling the parshmen what will happen when they sacrifice themselves. They constant cycle of resurrections definitely gives them an advantage over Team Human. This also probably plays into why the parshmen slaves are treated so well. If you expect to need a body later, you don’t abuse it. Damaged goods. But it wouldn’t explain why they treat the humans better than the Alethi army does.
“Sacrifice,” she said. “Do you think an empire is built without sacrifice?”
AA: Sure, easy for you to say!
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Oathbringer
AP: Of course. People at the top of an oppressive society rarely give any thought for those at the bottom. It’s an abstract because it doesn’t affect them directly.
Relationships & Romances
“Don’t you care what our own gods are doing to us?”
Sah slammed his bundle to the ground. “Yes, I care,” Sah snapped. “You think I haven’t been asking the same questions? Storms! They took my daughter, Khen! They ripped her away from me and sent me off to die.”
AA: Sanderson has taken us a long way on our view of the parsh people since the beginning of this series. First they were unknown, but something on that battlefield had orange blood. Then they were The Other; the ones who broke the treaty for unknowable reasons and killed Gavilar; the ones out there that shot arrows at our bridge crew and almost killed Dalinar & Adolin. Then they became the Listeners, through Eshonai’s POVs and the epigraphs which showed glimpses of their culture and history. Their “old gods” were sort of a nameless terror, though we suspected them to be the Unmade.
Now, we’re getting to know two new sets of people: the freed parshmen, who are still trying to figure out who they are and how to function, and the truth of those old gods. I don’t know about you, but the former make me sympathetic and the latter angry. I feel terrible for Sah and his little daughter Vai, and to a slightly lesser extent Khen and the rest; now that they’re awake, they’re really just normal everyday people, carapace notwithstanding. Those “old gods” though… no wonder the Listeners sacrificed everything they were to escape them. Their thirst for revenge seems to outweigh any consideration for the fate of the living. Leshwi talks about “sacrifice,” but it looks to me like some of them sacrificed their sanity, and the rest of them are perfectly happy to sacrifice all the parsh people they need in order to wipe out or enslave the humans. I honestly don’t think they care if there aren’t enough parsh left to propagate the species when they’re done; they just want to make sure the humans are destroyed.
AP: This is very similar to how I feel as well. I think their portrayal really brings home the horrors of warfare. It’s so much easier to hate an enemy you know nothing about. And as readers, it’s easy to cheer for the protagonists taking on an army of monsters. I can’t make myself cheer for the destruction of the Parshendi/Listeners/parshmen. And that’s another thing. I think based on some of our other discussions, that the name “parshmen,” while helping us distinguish who they are in the narrative feels wrong to call these people. As you mention, they have been freed from dullform slaveform, which literally clouded their minds. I suggest we start referring to them as the Awakened, since they aren’t really Listeners or Singers. One thing I absolutely love about this story is how complex it is. It’s so much more than human vs. monsters. There are monsters here, but they are the Fused, not the Listeners or the Awakened. And the Fused, outside of the influence of Odium, would be fighting a just war against invaders. There is just so much going on under the surface here.
AA: So much going on. I’m struggling with using “Awakened”—probably a result of doing the Warbreaker reread, where “awakened” has a much different context. I’d like to have a term for the whole race (perhaps excluding the Fused) for when I want to refer to those-people-with-marbled-skin-who-aren’t-either-human-or-Aimian. I think later the Fused refer to them all as “singers”—even though they only barely hear the Rhythms—but that leaves out the Listeners. And I really, really hope to find a few remnants of the Listeners yet. (FWIW, I’m going to try to ask about this at the Skyward signing in a couple of weeks.)
Bruised & Broken
AA: Maybe the bit about the loony-bin Fused should have gone here, but I think they’re beyond “bruised and broken,” and we were mostly using this for discussions of the kind of damage that leaves one open to the Nahel bond. I do have some questions to pose here, though. Are all of the parsh ancestors Voidbinders, even the ones who aren’t coherent enough to use it? Or is it just some of them? And does Voidbinding require the same openness of soul as Surgebinding?
AP: So Leshwi mentions that if Khen & Co. survive the assault on Kholinar that they would be honored. I expect that is intended to mean that they would have been considered to be acceptable vessels for the Fused.
AA: (Some honor, that.)
AP: Which again brings up what the mind/body connection is there. Is the host soul evicted? Or just suppressed? Is that soul capable of taking over a new body eventually? Stopover at Braize first? Voidbinding seems to require at a minimum the consent of the host, even if it is not informed consent.
AA: I have the very strong impression that the soul which used to own the body is thoroughly evicted to Beyond, so they don’t have any opportunity to make a fuss about it.
Squires & Sidekicks
“We harbored a spy,” Sah muttered.
A spy that, Moash had quickly learned, had been none other than Kaladin Stormblessed.
AA: We don’t know how he learned this, but it shouldn’t have been too hard if they talked to him at all. Dude wearing jacket much like his, slave brands, helpful, flies away? Not too many people fit that description. What I really want to know, though, is why Moash thinks “Kaladin Stormblessed” rather than just “Kaladin.” Moash was never one to give more honor or titles than necessary, iirc. Is this because of the last time he saw Kaladin, going from near-dead to fully healed Knight Radiant in a matter of seconds? Or is it more a matter of his own betrayal, of the one man who had been a true friend, preying on his mind?
AP: It’s not a stretch to figure out who the helpful flying human is. And the way that this group of Awakened talks about him, he does sound like Kaladin bloody Stormblessed!
Flora & Fauna
They barely quivered as he passed, though lifespren bobbed at his presence. The plants were accustomed to people on the streets.
AP: The idea of shy plants just delights me.
Moash’s Motivations
Let go, Moash, something deep within him whispered. Give up your pain. It’s all right. You did what was natural.
You can’t be blamed. Stop carrying that burden.
Let go.
AA: On a first read, it’s hard to tell whether this is merely a strong case of self-justification, or possibly something more. After reading the end of the book, it’s blatantly obvious that this is Odium whispering to Moash. Eurgh.
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The Ruin of Kings
There’s a little more of the whispering later in the chapter, though again, it’s not clear yet what’s happening. This will be something to observe as we go on, to see Moash’s reactions each time the whisper starts. He certainly doesn’t seem to be fighting the idea, and why would he? It fits right in with his mentality of blaming someone else for everything he does wrong. This forces the question: is his victim mentality inherent, and merely being enhanced by Odium? Or is it something Odium introduced to him a long time ago that he’s now accepted? I take the former position, myself; I think Moash has always been willing to blame others for his own actions, and that provides fertile ground for Odium’s whispering.
AP: It’s definitely Odium’s influence, and it’s one of the reasons that I think Moash doesn’t deserve all the hate he gets. Moash is also subject to the Thrill as an Alethi, so this is an clear increase in Odium’s influence, but not the first or only time he is affected. I think that Moash is the back up plan to Dalinar as champion, even way back here. Moash does not blame everyone else for his actions, we went through several chapters of him recognizing his own faults that led him to his current situation. His motivations are still very colored by his Alethi upbringing—vengeance paramount—and that makes it easy for him to accept justification when it’s offered. Whereas Dalinar had already rejected (forgotten) his violent path, and had several years to reform before being reminded of, and having to come to terms with, his history. It’s easy to see why Moash would flip on Team Human and Dalinar wouldn’t. Like Leshwi, Dalinar has been at the top of the social hierarchy, so he is doing okay, and has a lot of resources and a support system. Moash doesn’t have either. He had Bridge Four, but as we saw in earlier chapters, he doesn’t know how to form deep connections with others.
His heart thundered, and he regarded that drop, realizing something. He did not want to die.
AA: Well, whatever else I think may be missing in Moash’s motivations, there’s still some sense of self-preservation, I guess…. Also, if you suffer from acrophobia, don’t think about this section too hard!
AP: This is new though! Moash was passively suicidal for a good stretch before this. It wasn’t until he joined up with the Awakened group that he found some degree of purpose, and a reason to keep living.
She looked at him, smiling in what seemed to him a distinctly sinister way. “Do you know why we fight? Let me tell you.…”
AA: So now we find the touchpoint for Moash and the ancient souls he’s going to serve. Vengeance at any price.
It’s obvious from his later thoughts that Leshwi told Moash at least some of the true history of the Desolations. Presumably, she gave a (naturally) biased account, presenting the side of the Singers as the wronged ones in the ancient conflict. (I still suspect there may be more to the story, that it may not be as obviously one-sided as it currently appears.) I kind of wish we knew more about what he’s thinking here, but for the sake of story-telling, it needs to be hidden at this point.
AP: It does need to be hidden, but I do think that the humans are not necessarily the Good Guys. I think it’s complicated, especially since the humans were the original Voidbringers. There has to be more to the story of how & why the switch occurred—the humans following Honor and the Singers following Odium instead of the other way around. I wonder if we will get that full back story in book 4, of if we may have to wait until book 5.
“Spears,” Moash said. “I can teach you to be soldiers. We’ll probably die anyway. Storm it, we’ll probably never make it to the top of the walls. But it’s something.”
AA: So at this point, Moash still expects to die as cannon fodder in the first assault, despite his conversation with Leshwi. Did she merely give him permission to train them, or does he have a further assignment already?
AP: I see this as his own initiative. She gave him permission to leave and go join the refugees in Kholinar. He decided on his own that he couldn’t leave Khen and the others. This is why I call Moash’s arc the Dark Windrunner. He is following a very similar path to Kaladin, except not for Team Human.
A Scrupulous Study of Spren
“Like a bunch of slaves should be able to spot a spy?” Khen said. “Really? Shouldn’t the spren have been the one to spot him?”
AA: She’s not wrong, you know. How did the spren not get any of the blame? (Then again, how do you punish a spren?)
AP: I don’t know that you can. And do we know for sure what the spren that hang around the Voidbringers are? Are they Fused souls that have not yet gotten a new body? Or are they some sort of highspren that are of Odium instead of Honor or Cultivation? Voidspren?
AA: I … think it says somewhere, but I can’t find it right now. I think they are spren linked to Odium, but they aren’t ancestor souls. Ulim made that pretty clear in the first Venli interlude.
The wind up here tugged at the ribbons she wore, pushing them backward in careless ripples. There were no windspren in sight, oddly.
AA: Presumably, the spren who are native to this planet are repelled by Voidbinding, or something. Alternatively, it could be that windspren, being cousins of (or the origin of?) the honorspren, have from ancient times devoted themselves to Honor and so avoid beings tainted by Odium. Now we have something else to watch for: do any of the lesser spren ever show up around the Fused? Having thought of it, I’m now partial to the idea that the cousins of the higher spren are repelled by the ancestors, though it would make a certain amount of sense for all Roshar spren to feel that effect. I suppose it depends on how thoroughly Honor and Cultivation became integrated with the planet and all its spren before Odium showed up.
AP: I had also thought of the connection to honorspren. There are angerspren that show up around Moash earlier in the chapter. Though it can be argued that anger, being a passion, is from Odium! We also see lifespren when he goes past the cultivated rockbuds. I would associate those with Cultivation. So maybe just spren tangentially connected to Honor?
Quality Quotations
The Fused made a fist, and dark violet energy surrounded his arm. Carapace grew there into the shape of a saw.
AA: Well, that’s a cool trick if you can pull it off.
Kholinar had Soulcasters to make food, while the Voidbringer operations in the country would take months to get going.
AA: Sort of… but we’ll get to that much later.
Next week in Chapter 55 we get a peek into the head of one of the other outsiders on Bridge Four—Rlain! This is one of my (Aubree’s) favorite chapters in the book, and I can’t wait to get into it!
Alice is still up to her eyeballs in costuming and volleyball—not at the same time, though. She’s looking forward to the Skyward tour, and hoping madly that she can get the requisite costuming done in time!
Aubree is pretty sure that all the haunts were sent back where they came from last night. But if you see a stray cognitive shadow, please distract it with a discount bag of chocolate and give her a call. Spirits can get restless, but they are much less restless after a snickers. Unless they have a peanut allergy. Then more restless. Much more. Good luck!
I suspect that some of the fused went crazy at the very beginning when they returned and killed some of their own offspring or descendants. Entering into whatever pact with Odium for vengeance is one thing but perhaps the side effect of becoming their enemy was too much for some of them.
These sections of Moash learning to take care of the singer/listener/parsh group was such an obvious parallel to Kaladin and Bridge 4 that I started to get behind Moash and was expecting him to be redeemed through them. Helping unite the humans and Parsh while reconciling with Kaladin. Those high hopes made it all the worse when he decided to take a different path.
Re: Moash using Kaladin’s title in his head. I always mentally pictured Moash using a bit of profanity before the title: Kaladin ****ing Stormblessed. Not out of real respect, but more exasperation, like “Of course it was him, who else would it be?”
That should be slaveform.
@@.-@ Dullform does that, too.
This chapter. This chapter illustrates exactly why I have grown uncomfortable at the Moash bashing. Now, I will not try to pretend he is a great person nor even a particularly nice one nor he doesn’t deserve half the hate he is getting within the fandom (because he does, he did betray a friend, he did allow his anger to cloud his judgment), but I will however not blame him for struggling to take on responsibility for his actions. How does one begin to assume it when a nefarious entity is whispering in your ear to let it go? Why would he when nothing, absolutely nothing, is waiting for him down the line? Just so he could feel better about his person? Then what?
Moash, unlike Dalinar, isn’t fighting a battle against Odium nor has he been told he had to unite the world or else all is lost. He doesn’t believe he is essential to the world’s future nor does he believe anything relies on his sole actions. He is a nobody without family, without friends, without a future. He has done terrible things, but each time he thinks of trying to do better, something, someone insert itself in his mind to urge him not to do it. And yes, it suits him just fine. Odium is indeed playing with thoughts he already had, reinforcing them, but the fact remains Moash has no one waiting for him once he makes his decision.
I will always be more inclined to feel pity for the downtrodden, the lost, the rejected, the ones no one loves because, in the end, having people who believe in you, who think highly of you can make the difference in between raising up to the stars or crashing down. Just today, the paper talked of, yet again, a boy who’s life has gone from bad to worst, a rotten apple, a trouble-maker who, against all odds, matured into a responsible adult, who finished his studies and is now giving it back to the school which “saved him”. How? A handful of teachers believed in him when no one else would. Sure. Kaladin believed in Moash, but Moash wasn’t in the right place to listen. Now he maybe is, but all who believes in him want to use him to do their deeds. They do not care about him and here lies the tragedy who is Moash.
Dalinar had people believe in him, care for him, refuse to give up on him for years. Years where he was unresponsive. Years where he did worst than what Moash did. Years and years and years he had people keep on believing he could, one day, become a greater man. Thank you Aubrey for mentioning how much easier it is for Dalinar to take ownership for his actions when the consequences for them have been dealt with a long time ago, when he never really loved the one victim which mattered to him (no matter what he really felt here, he never loved her half as much as he loves Navani), when he had finally married Navani (which wouldn’t have been possible had he not kill Evi), when he finally grew up into a man to be proud of, when every single one of his family members is willing to forgive him his worst deeds, when he has so many resources, wealth, rank, a future.
So once again, what does Moash have? Nothing. Moash had Kaladin who believed in him for a few weeks. Weeks. Dalinar had people believe in him for years, decades, people who refused to give up him, who supported him through the worst of his days. Moash had support for a few weeks, he was barely starting getting used to it, when he ruined it. And he knows he did just as he knows no one is going to give him a second chance.
And it makes me sad for him he didn’t have this insane familial support to pull him through his worst thoughts.
@3 You could imagine, if things had gone differently, Moash and Adolin commiserating about Kaladin. (See Adolin’s “of course” reaction later on when Kaladin shows up with the wall defenders following him.
@5 – Yes, but they weren’t in dullform; they were in slaveform. Dullform was an accepted form for the Listeners and was included in the Five.
@8 Ah, pointing out a typo. My mistake.
RE: epigraph – “I have to wonder what was in Hoid’s letter to make him so surprised.”
Do we know what knowledge Sazed gained when he picked up the two shards? Does he learn all bout Adonalsium, the other shards, the people who hold/held them? Or, did he just gain the power of the shards? If the latter (which I think more likely), having Hoid write him a letter of introduction and congratulations on successfully combining the two shards into Harmony would be a big surprise; especially if a bit of history followed.
RE: The “true history of the desolations”
I was going to wait until later to bring this up, but I really don’t understand why this revelation is so devastating to everyone. Yes, humans are not native to Roshar. Yes, they discovered surgebinding. Maybe they brought Odium, or maybe he followed them. All of that happened tens of thousands of years before. It doesn’t really have anything to do with who they are now or the history of the past 7000 years. It doesn’t seem like a big enough revelation to cause the hysteria it does or justify humans turning on humanity.
[side note: This is the same problem I had with The Dark Knight Rises. The revelation doesn’t explain or justify the reaction it receives.]
I believe there is a missing “not” in the quoted epigraph.
#6, @Gepeto: “Years where he [Dalinar] did worst than what Moash did.” Depends on your ranking. He killed more innocent people than Moash, but one thing Dalinar was: loyal. Tempted to kill his brother while in the grip of the Thrill, he resisted, was horrified by himself, and spent years adjusting his whole life to avoid ever experiencing that again. Moash consciously, repeatedly, and (the second time) mockingly betrayed his all-but-brother kaladin
@10 – That was my first reaction to finding out about the Recreance. I’ve thought about it a lot since then, and there’s something I’m going to ask Brandon at the next signing. I’m wondering about the timing between the Radiants enslaving the Parsh and when the Recreance happened.
If we assume that Odium was actually talking to Moash, do we know how he was able to do so? In mistborn a person had to have the metal earing in order to communicate with the shards. Vin had the bronze one, and had Ruin talk to her. Later Harmony notes that it was ruin that allowed for talking and preservation which allowed for listening. So how does it work with Odium? I assume he doesn’t need a piece of metal piercing the body, so is there some sort of emotional change or something that is required to hear Odium?
Austin @@.-@ – Corrected. Thanks for the catch!
Carl @11 – There are no missing words. I copy the epigraphs in directly from the ebook, and I just went back and checked to confirm that the ebook and hardcover match. Where do you think it’s missing?
Thought I’d share an interesting theory I read about Sazed. The theorizer theorized that combining Ruin and Preservation together would not lead to Harmony, but would instead be at constant odds with each other and would actually create the shard Discord, a being who would simultaneously need to destroy and preserve everything it came in contact with. Makes sense to me and it kind of shines a new light on what Sazed’s motivations might actually be. Like he might want things to be discordant. Examples would be the vast differences in technology between Northern and Southern Scadrial & Huge differences in quality of life between cities like Elendel and the Roughs.
Also, if anyone is going to a Skyward signing and needs a question to ask Brandon. How about “What is Pattern’s real name?” Pattern is just a nickname that Shallan gave him back in WOR.
@11: There is no “not” missing as I do think Dalinar’s deeds far surpasses anything Moash did.
Dalinar genuinely enjoyed killing other people and he burned an entire town because he was angry. Was he loyal? Yes, he was loyal to Gavilar. Was Moash loyal? No, he wasn’t. But Moash did not commit mass murder to absolve his need for vengeance: he took it out on one man, Elhokar. He didn’t see fit to have every single children in Kholinar burn alive to pay for Elhokar’s bad ruling. Dalinar, on the other hand, felt he needed to make Rathalas be an “example” of what happens when you trick the Blackthorn.
I am not trying to excuse Moash’s betrayal here: he did betray Kaladin. He was no loyal. He is not trust-worthy. He doesn’t deserve to be trusted again, not until he proves himself and no just “feeling sorry for himself” is not going to do it. He does deserve at least half the hate he is getting, but he still did not commit atrocities which measure up to what Dalinar did, loyal or not.
Also, I am not sure it would matter to Dalinar’s victims to know he was being “loyal” while he decided their life was to end in a brutal manner. Had Moash been loyal, yeah, perhaps he’d still be with Bridge 4, perhaps he’d be a squire too, but loyal or no, young Dalinar still was a very, very, very bad person.
Pattern is a fractal. His name is probably a mathematical formula.
The clothes of the flying Fused sound a bit like a Mistcloak, and the spren avoid them like the mist avoids people in contact with Ruin.
Thanks, birgit! That’s been bothering me for years.
Oh, yeah. I paid zero attention to the epigraphs when reading the book, but now that you discuss them, the “I think” is a strong hint. Someone said somewhere on TV Tropes that if Sazed was in a burning building, he would probably say something like “We should leave now, I think.” Yess. I heart Sazed and his habitual understatement.
This chapter… it’s good to see Moash want to take some responsibility for the Singer slaves that Kaladin doomed. And the fact that Moash isn’t suicidal is also good. But he once again turns his back on his own people, saying they’re not worth saving, and when given the opportunity to be with them he stays instead.
I think one of the reasons Moash helps Khen and the others is because he feels like they were also ‘burned’ by Kaladin Stormblessed (which he almost sees as a different person than his friend Kaladin). Dark Windrunner is a good name for it, with the parallels to the time in the bridge crews.
There are times when I’m very glad this is fiction. Imagine having to fight an actual physical enemy that wouldn’t stay dead, like the Fused. For a ‘regular guy’ in the books (or anyone in this world) there’s no hope of victory in this fight. Which wouldn’t make me want to turn my back on them if they’re feeding me. Not that I’m saying Moash did nothing wrong; the easy way can’t always be the best way, and he made some bad choices. But the idea of it… gets me sometimes
I beleive that part of Venli being amenable to Timber was seeing what the fused did when they took a body. Her husband and the others all expected to come out like Venli did with herself still existing. Someone mentioned how the Fused treating the Parsh well was expected, after all, these were their new bodies just waiting to be posessed when the need arose.
I see Moash as the tragic anti-hero. He wasn’t bad from birth nor was he originally selected as a pawn by Odium. Life and his reactions lead him down the path to evil just as Dalinar’s lead to being the hero. Dalinar had the diadvantage of being selected by Odium early on but he also was selected by Cultivation. If one of the shards had stepped in to help Moash this would have gone dfferently.
I agree with whoever it was that said eventually therer will have to be a joining between the Humans, the Singers and the Parsh. We still don’t know that the group Eshonie helped to escape has been eliminated. I expect them to appear in the next book
Awww… the start of “Ladder 4”, as some would call Sah & Khen’s group. I do hope we see Sah’s daughter alive and well at some point.
It’s pretty clear from Venli’s PoV that her partner was totally killed in spirt when he was taken over by a Fused. But I’m now unsure if we have re-read that interlude or not. It makes me sad for tall the Listeners who were duped by Venli’s search for power. I know she’s working on a redemption arc, but part of me is not ready to forgive her yet.
It is nice to realize that the skin patterns are not just a function of the from taken. I believe one of Eshonai’s PoV talked about how the pattern shifted based on her form changing.
And this chapter is when I felt 100% confidant in thinking that Moash will end up with a not human romantic partner by the end of the series.
I remember in the reread discussions people being bothered by the thought of the human / Parshmen crosses, when all we knew about them was their slaveform. But once we saw them as active and thinking people, the idea became more acceptable to me.
@19: I love that Pattern’s real name could really be
I find it interesting that Sazed refers to himself as a deity now that he has Ascended and is the embodiment of Harmony. Harmony, for whatever it is worth, is close to the opposite on the spectrum as you can get from Odium. I associated the concept of odium (extreme hatred) with a form of chaos. I cannot see the embodiment of Odium content with being a tyrannical absolute monarch type. In our history, people who kept their rule through blood and fear craved order – so long as they were at the top. Tyrants like Stalin and Sadam Hussein were as ruthless against the opposition as they were against any follower who the populace believed would be the heir apparent.
Before receiving Hoid’s letter, did Sazed know who Hoid was? That Hoid was not only a wordhopper, but was somebody who was around since the time Adonalsium shattered into the 16 Shards. Perhaps that in itself was what surprised Sazed?
Alice, if you need some additional questions to ask Brandon, would you mind asking him the following questions: “Before any of the prior Desolations, did any society on Roshar achieve a society level equivalent to America in the late 20th century/early 21st century? Did any society reach a level of technology wherein members of the society traveled by space to other systems in the Cosmere?” Thanks. No worries if you cannot. I think that might be the type of question Brandon may be willing to answer as I doubt that knowledge will affect the plot of SA.
Alice and Aubree. I think the soul of a singer is suppressed much in the same way Eshoni’s soul was suppressed when she took Stormform. We had hints of her true subconscious trying to peek out, but prior to her death it was not strong enough to evict whatever took over her body. It would not surprise me if we eventually meet a singer who is eventually strong enough to evict the soul of a Fused and take back his/her body.
Aubree: I think Moash is Plan C. I think Amaram was Plan B by this point.
Thanks for reading my musings.
AndrewHB
aka the musespren
@23: Yes. This.
I think that too. I think it is too easy to not take into consideration the fact Dalinar was chosen by Cultivation to be “helped” on top of being whole-heartily supported by everyone close to him. Moash dig himself into a pretty deep hole of his own making and the only ones willing to give him a hand aren’t… on the good side of the battle.
@24: Love Ladder 4 surname! I am not sure how I feel about Moash having a romantic partner though.,. human or not.
@26: Odium says Amaram never was a plan as he wasn’t blood-thirsty enough. Odium wanted a killing machine, not just a conflicted man with decent warrior capacities. He chose Dalinar because Dalinar loved to kill, loved the warfare. Now that’s disturbing. I still cannot piece out together why Dalinar loved to kill people so much, why he lacked so much empathy he yearned to spill more blood… That’s like… really creepy.
In the beginning, Dalinar wasn’t all about killing, per se. He was all about fighting, about the contest, and the killing was just the “natural end” for whoever lost the fight. Later, the more he was influenced by Odium, the killing was an end in itself.
Gepeto @6. I personally think that Moash deserves whatever he gets. He made his bed, know he has to sleep in it. That said, whether one thinks Moash is an evil opertunistic scum or he is a sympathetic figure, I disagree with you that Odium’s apparent influence on Moash (assuming, of course the whispering Moash hears in this Chapter and at other times is in fact Odium) should not be a mitigating factor as to whether or not Moash is blameless.
(I understand you are not arguing whether Moash is evil or a waking tragedy or somewhere in between. You argue that Odium’s influence should be a mitigating factor.)
Your argument is that humans (and possibly singers/listeners) are at the mercy of “deities” (which is what at least Sazed describes himself and other Shard holders – of which Odium is one). They do not have free will. I think the results of OB bely that argument. Dalinar is the most obvious example. He consciously denied Odium. He did not give in to the temptation Odium offered. Dalinar not only took the first step, he took the second, third and all the remaining steps necessary to deny Odium. On the other side of the spectrum, we have Amaram and King T. Both (for different reasons) sought out Odium. They thought he was the better choice. Amaram came to realize that the greatness of the Heralds Vorin religion espoused was as far from the truth as could be. He felt betrayed and concluded that only Odium could provide the divine strength necessary to save the world from the weakness that would corrupt itself from within. King T sought out Odium because he thought that cutting a deal with Odium (however one-sided the deal turned out to be) was the only way to save at least some humans – assuming Odium would uphold the deal. As the readers, we hope King T is misguided. If King T is not, it means that humanity (which, at least through the first 3 books, are the protagonist entity; the Fused and singers being portrayed as the enemy) has no hope to win the Final Desolation. (As an aside, that would be a very interesting ending to the apocalyptic trope.)
I concede that Moash may not have as strong a will as Dalinar. He may be looking for an excuse to leave Team Humanity and serve Team Parsh. Nevertheless, that still means Moash has free will. He is willing to accept the voice in his head. It does not matter whether that voice is his inner soul or a deity. Absolving Moash of his actions because he is influenced by a deity misses the point of OB. In the Cosmere, characters have free will. There are no cosmic entities who spin the threads of human destiny (as the Greeks believed the Fates did) or that the Web of Pattern ultimately controlled your destiny in the Wheel of Time universe. Dalinar had free will to resist Odium. Yes, Cultivation helped prepare him through the Boon/Curse. Yet ultimately, it was Dalinar who decided to resist Odium. Likewise, Amaram and King T freely sought out Odium. And Moash chose, of his own free will, to side with the Fused/Singers.
Gepeto @27. I forgot that Odium said that Amaram was not quite what he was looking for. That said, is Odium a reliable narrator? Could he have said that not to give Amaram too much significance at this point. I believe when he said that point, Dalinar had yet to reject Odium. I honestly do not know. You could be right and I am wrong: Amaram was never an backup in case Dalinar did not become Odium’s champion.
Thanks for reading my musings.
AndrewHB
aka the musespren
@28 – your comment made me think about what Alethi culture would be like if there was actual sport. Not just combat arts turned into spectacle such as dueling, boxing, or wrestling, but something equivalent to football / soccer, basketball, baseball etc. An outlet for the natural Alethi aggression / desire for competition.
Would they be more peaceful? Would Dalinar feel more peaceful if he could run around the football field for a few hours a week?
Alice, what happened is that I misread the quote. Sorry, the epigraph is correct.
As for how Odium talks to people, notice that both Honor (even after his death!) and Cultivation also talk to people. I think the rules on Roshar are just different, we know that Investiture varies on different planets. Also, Scadrial is weird because its two Shards (pre-Harmony) are so directly opposed that they keep canceling each other out. Hmm … I just realized that while Sazed can’t mentally communicate with non-Hemalurgically-pierced people, he can write letters to Hoid! Could he write a letter to Wax?
Keep in mind also that Dalinar sought out his magical salvation. Just think of the mess our heroes would be in if Dalinar was not an active participant in his becoming a better man. Culti ain’t helping if he doesn’t make the trip to the Valley. And since he was held in esteem by everyone despite his bloody past it could be argued that there was no external motivation for him to seek redemption; only he thought it was necessary. Moash has both internal and external motivation to be better and in this chapter he takes a step toward that journey only to run screaming away from it.
@28: I re-checked the WoB and yeah, I thought Brandon said Dalinar loved to kill, but he actually said he loved to fight. My bad. Still, I find his behavior trouble-some. It doesn’t sit well within my head someone would be at ease to kill people so easily.
@29: Actually I am arguing there are some mitigation factors around Moash such as yes Odium’s whispering in his head, the lack of support, friends and the absence of a future. I just think there were no good decisions for Moash to take as whatever he were to decide, there was nothing down the road for him. I just think it makes it harder to make the right choices when you can’t see there is a right choice.
Still, I said Moash deserves about half the hate he does get. The other half is where I would bring in the mitigation factors, but I agree he did make his bed and he now has to sleep in it. I never meant to infer he didn’t, he just feels so… lonely.
I am not trying to argue human have no free will in front of Odium… I never claimed this, in fact, I have bee arguing the opposite since the beginning, but I do think having someone telling you exactly what you hoped to hear can steer towards the wrong direction which is exactly what happens to Moash here.
Yes, Dalinar took all of the steps, one after the other, but my point, all along, is there were a lot of mitigation factors surrounding Dalinar which made it, in my eyes, easier whereas Moash had the opposite. Also, he had many, many years to grow, to evolve, to become a better man and yes this happens because he had people willing to let it happen.
Amaram was terribly misguided and ultimately made his choice. What I have been arguing about is he might have made another one, had the circumstances been different. Sometimes, when everything seems to steer against you, you end up feeling you have no choice which is exactly where I feel Amaram was. He didn’t feel he could reject Odium. He didn’t believe this was a choice he had. He did not want to deal with his own guilt, but had he have actual support maybe it would have made it easier. Dalinar had the luxury of time, a lot of time, to find a way to stand up again.
I do agree Moash does not have Dalinar’s will, but I will also argue Moash is what… 25 years old? And Dalinar is what? 55 years old? How was Dalinar’s will at 25? How was Dalinar’s will at 45? How was his will when he drank and drank and drank to avoid dealing with reality? So yeah, Moash doesn’t have Dalinar’s will, but Moash also haven’t have the benefit of having been given a long lifetime to develop it.
I am not absolving Moash’s actions. I am merely saying I do not view the character within the same negative light as other readers and yeah, I have pity for him.
On Amaram and Odium: I do not believe Odium was being an unreliable narrator as I felt his argumentation made sense. He wanted the Champion to be the greatest, the biggest, the baddest warrior on the battlefield, a storm of his own and well no one else comes even close to the Blackthorn. Even Moash, he is a poor replacement: no one else has Dalinar’s energy and passion. Amaram never had it. He was not a passionate man, he never had the same…. energy. Moash has passion and energy, but he is no Blackthorn, not yet anyway, but I do think he is being groomed to become it.
@30: They have dueling in Alethkar which could serve the same purpose, but Dalinar hates it. I suspect he hates it because he saw his father waste his health through useless duels made for honor. He came to see them as idiotic and frivolous ways to get injured… I wondered, back in WoK/WoR, why Dalinar made such a big deal out of duels, out of injuries while dueling when we never saw anyone earn so much as a scratch in those… Now we know. Because his father incapacitated himself dueling.
It also made me think Adolin might have inherited his love of dueling and his impulsiveness from his grand-father.
@25 Gaz
What’s the formula for/of?
@Gepeto: I agree with you on Moash. I don’t hate him; I feel sorry for him. I agree that his actions are nowhere near as bad as those of Dalinar in his youth. The core difference between them isn’t the enormity of their actions, but that Dalinar chooses to repent and take responsibility for his actions, and Moash repeatedly chooses not to. He recognizes his actions as wrong, he feels remorse for them, he punishes himself for them at times, but he always chooses to refuse responsibility.
@post 6, regarding what the path forward would be if Moash repented: the clearest one is to go back back to the Windrunners (at the Shattered Plains) and surrender. Their treatment of Rlain suggests they might even accept Moash back. Kaladin seems more grieved over him than angry, and hasn’t told the Windrunners what he did. Elhokar was too drunk to remember. And it seems like it was the only place Moash was ever happy. But because he doesn’t have the moral courage to take responsibility for his actions and go back, he’ll never know this. It’s painfully tragic.
@33 – I did mention that I didn’t include dueling or any sport based on martial arts in my consideration. I was talking about non-combat sports specifically – sports that usually would not lead to overwhelming bloodlust or incapacitation most of the time. Would Dalinar consider still baseball too frivolous? Probably.
@34 – I literally just searched up “mathematical formula,” found one that looked half cool, and pasted it. Come to think of it, if Pattern says his name is “many numbers,” its probably more like 1123581321345589144233377, which is the start of the Fibonacci sequence.
@Gepeto, you might have mentioned this in another of the hundreds of reread threads, but I think many readers hate Moash so much because they identify with Kaladin, he’s their “me-insert” in the story. Moash betrayed, not just “our side”, but Kaladin personally, punched him so hard he broke his ribs, and then not only murdered Elhokar in front of his face but mocked him and Bridge Four after doing it. Dalinar killed Evi, but I doubt many people identified with Evi, she’s presented both too distantly (not a POV character) and as too ineffectual to be anyone’s identification character.
As a scholarly nonreligious middle-aged person I identify more with almost all the other POVs (and especially Jasnah or Dalinar, who is my approximate age) than Kaladin, so I probably am naturally inclined to hate Moash less.
I’m also sometimes grumpy (and a teacher). Now I want a POV chapter from Vasher/Zahel (/Peacegiver/Warbreaker/Talaxin/Kalad … the man has lots of names). Speaking of people who (like Dalinar) have killed many thousands in war, and (like Moash) have betrayed their best friends.
@35: The reason I am so hard on Dalinar despite him having taking full responsibility for his actions while I am being melower with Moash is the fact the circumstances surrounding Dalinar made it, to my eyes, easier than for Moash.
Dalinar had years and years to come to term with his actions. Years he mostly spent being drunk to avoid dealing with his actions. He needed Renarin’s bottle and Gavilar dying to really start kicking up the changing process. And it took a few more years.
Moash has had a few weeks to deal with his own actions and I should throw him a rock for not having taken responsibility like the great Dalinar did? How was Dalinar fairing a few weeks after the Rift? Oh yeah, he was drunk. How was Dalinar fairing a few years after the Rift? Oh yeah, he was drunk. How long did it take him to finally be strong enough to own up to his actions? 10 years. And here we are being hard on Moash because he hasn’t done it after a few weeks while being a much younger man.
That’s why, despite all he has done, despite his betrayal, it is easier for me to feel pity for Moash than for Dalinar. I am glad I am not the only one who pities him.
@36: Ah sorry, I missed the part about the combat-oriented sports.
Honestly, trying to picture Dalinar playing baseball is downright hilarious… I picture growing frustrated at the slow pace of the game and feeling like he wants to use this bat to hit someone. Or him getting pissed at the mascot and pushing it out of his way. I personally like baseball, but it wouldn’t fit Dalinar, IMHO.
American football or rugby would be more in-line with how I perceive Dalinar. Ever watched or played rugby? Now, that’s where I would picture the Blackthorn evolving were he born within modern day times. Brutal. Effective. Energetic. Can be bloody. Feels like a battlefield minus the killing and the death. Highly competitive.
@37: Yes, of course, I have said those things and I still think part of the answer lies there. I have also argued readers were harsher on Amaram (pre-Odium fall) because he was presented as an antagonist to Kaladin just as I have said had we read the narrative from young Tanalan’s viewpoint, Dalinar would have indeed been a monster. A story is all a matter of viewpoints and, within SA, Brandon chose to turn a character who’d likely be an antagonist within many series into a protagonist. Readers love Dalinar because the author cleverly introduced him in ways which dimmed his negative actions and, in the same way, readers hate Moash because the narrative truly makes us feel this way. Young Dalinar had less redeeming qualities than Moash and yet readers love him nonetheless.
Moash was awful. He did horrible things. My line of argumentation however is he was a very troubled young man who made terrible, terrible decisions, who more or less have admitted to himself, but doesn’t have it in him to seek redemption. Why would he? No one ever took him in besides Bridge 4, how is he going to believe they would forgive him? When he hasn’t forgiven himself? Teft found in him the ability to try to forgive himself for his addiction, but he also had people willing to catch him if he fell. People who wouldn’t judge him. Who has Moash’s back now? No one.
If there is one theme SA has broached which has gone under the radar within the fandom it is this one: belonging. How belonging to something bigger than yourself can propel you to break your own personal glass ceiling. All the lonely people, where do they all come from? Where are they going? I feel we shouldn’t underestimate the harshness of knowing no one will vouch for you, support you nor should we dismiss how much positive influence having loving family members surrounding you can have.
In the end, the strongest willed character on the cast is probably Shallan and not Dalinar…. because Shallan never had support. She was utterly alone and she pulled through. No one helped her and her bond did not save her, it broke her. She wasn’t given a second chance, she made one for herself.
I am neither Adolin nor Moash’s age, but I tend to prefer younger characters over older ones. I find the struggles of youth more interesting to read about than the questioning of older/middle age, but these are just my personal preferences. Lack of belonging, pressure to be what you are not also are themes which resonate very close to me as an individual.
Gepeto:
You say that Moash never had anybody trying to help him, apart from Kaladin, but the episode with the old caravaneer Guff suggests to me that his betrayal of Kaladin was part of the pattern of screwing over people showing him acceptance and trying to help him – only in the other cases Moash didn’t even _notice_ that he was doing it. Kaladin’s help was just so huge, so on-the-nose that even Moash couldn’t blightly ignore the fact of it.
And IMHO, Moash’s kill counts are about to ramp up. After all, the Fused can’t really get their world back with all those humans being in the picture and outnumjbering the singers. Not to mention that the timing of the Everstorm specifically disrupted the growing season, so food shortages are going to be imminent. And once the humans recover from the shock of their sudden defeat, they are going to start resisting – unless something is done pre-emptively to prevent this.
Gaz:
I am not sure that young Dalinar would have felt more peaceful with sports – IIRC, even duels to the death which he was fighting on behalf of Gavilar during the period of the second flashback – and maybe even later? – didn’t wholly satisfy him. And I don’t think that it was mainly due to his father’s injury – IIRC he complained in his PoV that the duels were just too structured and rules-laden for his taste.
Oh, and if anybody has the chance to ask questiond during upcoming signings and doesn’t have enough questions of their own, here is something I am dying to learn:
Do singers have significantly longer life-spans than humans? It would explain a lot…
RogerPavelle @34, Gaz @36: The formula is for the nth Fibonacci number (1,1,2,3,5,8,13,..). Phi is the golden ratio (1+sqrt(5))/2. It’s weird the first time you see it that the formula given always comes out to be whole number, but in the end all of the sqrt(5)’s cancel out and you’re left with just a plain number.
@@@@@ 26 AndrewHB –
I think that was asked last year for the book signing of Oathbringer. I think someone in Houston asked that question. I don’t remember the exact answer but Brandon said something like we will find out in the next Wax and Wayne novel. I might be wrong for the answer. But that question had been asked. So, perhaps if anyone has a transcript of that signing, we can find out what was Brandon’s answer.
@40: Yeah, well, fair point in bringing in Guff. I talked about how automatically screwing up help often is a protection mechanism those who never fitted in often use. I have used it, I am still using it: one could comb through my posts and pinpoint the moments where I did use it. Albeit, knowing about the behavior doesn’t necessarily makes it easier to kill off: I never feel like I belong. I always feel the SA fandom, as a whole, would be better off if I weren’t so obstinate in trying to be a part of it.
Hence I can easily project into Moash’s character and speculate he feels the same considering his awful track records when it comes to both belonging and social inter-actions. It is also often easier to come across as “angry” and “vindictive” than “vulnerable”: always beware of those who speak in anger as it often hides something else.
This being said, I agree Moash’s death toll is likely to go up just as he is likely to perhaps give a run for his money to young Dalinar. Needless to say if Moash pulls out another Rift, I will be judging him as harshly as I have judged Dalinar, but he isn’t there yet. He still has the possibility to make different choices, to not become this man: Moash turning into a full blast villain is not a foregone conclusion. Not yet anyway and until it does, I am willing to give him the benefit of doubt.
I also agree on the whole starvation idea as I too felt this may be an upcoming theme within book 4. Urithiru cannot produce food, Alehtkar is lost, Jah Keved is likely to be at war, so all which is left are the Shattered Plains. They will be starving not to forget the hordes of refuges they are likely to have to deal with.
On Dalinar and sports: Good point in reminding how Dalinar felt the duels were too restrictive to satisfy his need for action. So if it wasn’t the context he wants, than what did he want? A brawl where the most vicious hits are allowed? What kind of person wants this? It is almost an animalism behavior… or one coming from someone having grown up being very entitled… Any thoughts on that?
On signings: If someone is inclined to ask an “Adolin” related question (kind of), I would love to hear what Brandon has to say on how he chose to write the aftermath of Sadeas’s death. I felt it was an anti-climatic disappointing turn of events and if I have made my peace with this narrative, I still wish to hear Brandon respond to those who felt the ball was dropped here. It was such an anticipated arc and it so didn’t live up to the hype… Brandon’s character-related narratives always live up to the hype except, well, that one.
Also, if someone were to ask him what a crazy Adolin-lover reader such as myself can expect out of his character arc within book 4, not in terms of content (of course!), but in terms of scope, length and perhaps emotional content, I’d be eternality grateful.
Chances of someone who reads in here to be interested within those questions aren’t very high, but in care there is, I have said my piece :-)
@41 – I think you confused Roshar with Scadrial.
Re. Dalinar and sports – in reality, unsanctioned, illegal, underground cage-fighting would probably be the only equivalent sport that would satisfy him. Fight Club basically. And it would be perfect for Dalinar because no one would ever know he was participating in it, since you do not talk about Fight Club.
Gepeto – re: Moash
It seems you have forgotten that Moash was gifted a shardblade by Kaladin which put Moash in the 4th Dahn which according to Adolin is higher than 95% (?) of the Alethi population. (I assume that only the Royal Family and the High Princes families can be 3rd and higher. In fact, IRRC, Amaram is also a 4th Dahn.
Moash, due to his rank was also given land by Dalinar in Alethkar. His income also went up. And as a result of using a shardblade, Moash had become a lighteyes, his eyes the same shade as Amaram.
So, though Moash was born a darkeyes, he rose up in rank and became rich thanks to his good friend Kaladin.
Then, Moash tried to kill Kaladin. Talk about being unappreciative to say the least, and being a Judas as the worst description. (You said you’re an atheist, so just in case you don’t know who Judas is, he was the apostle of Jesus who sold him to the Romans for 30 pieces of silver. Judas betrayed Jesus with a kiss. Judas was with Jesus during the whole time of His ministry on earth. He is one of the 12 trusted ones. That Judas betrayed that trust remains unforgiven today. And to many Catholics, Judas is the ONLY candidate they have of someone who went to hell, though many also say that Judas might have asked forgiveness before he died, so might be in heaven for all we know. But, that is a theological discussion I cannot even get into).
Back to secular discussion. I believe that it is Moash’s betrayal of Kaladin that makes many of us here (that includes me) to have a strong dislike for Moash. But, that is just one reason, at least for me. Other reasons I have – Moash had it all – the shardblade and the riches, but he was so stupid that he gave it all up. Moash has tunnel vision. He could not see his friend Kaladin. He could not see that he had been gifted riches and rank by the same social structure that he hated.
In my eyes, Moash is so stupid! He does not have my pity nor my hate. I just find him so annoyingly stupid! LOL On top of that, he blames everyone but himself. He won’t take responsibility. He is 25 years old! He is not a kid anymore. Gosh, even here on earth, if a 25 year old commits a crime, and found guilty, they don’t go to juvie, they go to jail.
As for Dalinar – you believe he had it easy? No, he did not. Moash had it easy, but not Dalinar. Moash was doing a walkabout guarding caravans instead of helping his grandparents run their shop because it was not his thing.
Dalinar at a young age had to train to be a soldier, to be a leader though he is the “spare.” And, at a young age, he was Gavilar’s “sword” or “enforcer” to use a mafia term. Dalinar was doing all these “justified” killings for his brother and for House Kholin. I won’t call that life easy.
Dalinar might love to kill when he was young. But goodness gracious, he was trained to do that. So, yes that incident surrounding Evi’s death was very bad. So many people died, including Evi. And chances are many here will give a long list of all the killings that Dalinar had done.
Just remember, Dalinar was a soldier. In fact he was a General. So, he will kill people. That’s what war is about. How many people did General Patton kill during World War II? How many people die General MacArthur kill during the same war at the Pacific theater?
Dalinar became an alcoholic. Whoopi doo.. well, what do you expect? The man probably has PTSD and all the psychological problems that come from a war. Case in point – so many war veterans all the way from Vietnam to the current wars in the Middle East to Afghanistan suffer from PTSD. Many become homeless because they cannot cope. They can’t come back from being a trained killer to a normal family life. So, they leave their homes because they don’t want to hurt their families.
Yes, I am forgiving Dalinar for almost all of his “sins” for lack of a better word. He did what he had to do at a very high price – his true love (Navani), his brother Gavilar, his wife Evi and his two children. Dalinar might be rich in terms of material things, but he did not have an easy life.
Moash had an easy life. He was just gallivanting around, with no care in the world. He won’t even help his aging grandparents because their business was “not his thing.” Oh my stars, how shallow is that!
Then his grandparents died. And all he could think of was revenge. He went to the Shattered Plains and expected to be soldier but was instead sent to the Bridge crew. Well… that again is his stupidity. How can he expect to be a soldier if he was not trained. Duh! He could have stayed in Kholinar and enlisted there! Again, stupid Moash was not thinking!
So, no I cannot find pity on Moash. I just think of him as annoyingly stupid.
What’s interesting (to me) here is watching people push the characters toward extremes. If we like someone, he/she must be nearly or utterly flawless. If we don’t, they have no virtues.
Brandon Sanderson does nuance. His villains have virtues and his heroes have sins.
Even Odium has admirable qualities, folks. (For one, if you look carefully he’s utterly honest. He doesn’t lie. He’s deluded about certain things, but he never actually lies.)
Some comments from today really did make me re-evaluate how I see Moash vs Dalinar. Both of them made horrific decisions (I’ll leave it to the reader whether killing one man but not being loyal is worse than being loyal and killing thousands of innocents, to me loyalty isn’t worth that much. We all know that “following orders” only gets you so far.) and both of them engaged in self destructive behavious afterwards.
There are a couple of differences I see.
1. Dalinar’s poor coping mechanism largely affects HIM, and his children. Moash’s coping mechanism involves fighting against the good guys.
2. We get to see Dalinar a decade after the event, after he undergoes a SECOND traumatic event (Gavilar’s death) and after he has received literal divine intervention which helps him snap out of his funk whereas for Moash we only see him weeks after.
I’m not a fan of Moash, but I do feel he is being treated overly harshly.
@@@@@sheiglagh There is a BIG difference between war, battles and war crimes. The Rift was a war crime by any modern standard and by Rosharan standards (hence the cover up), and we are all looking at these characters through modern lens anyways. I’m not saying he was wrong to kill people in battle, that is a soldiers job. Incinerating a whole city and killing thousands of innocent civilians.. That is not a soldiers job. Even on Roshar.
“Then his grandparents died. And all he could think of was revenge. ” Change grandparents to brother and you have Dalinar’s motivation. Why do they get treated differently?
I just want to point out. A couple of things. First, perspective matters. This series is about CHAMPIONING that. And a lot of people here are being to quick to take one perspective over the other.
Second, and for all we now Moash’s journey isn’t done. For all we know he could become something like a Dustbringer. We don’t know much about them.
Finally, and back to the point on perspective
What was that line in The Way Of Kings again? That if kings more often stopped to helped people on the roads with their loads, that more people would help kings carry their loads? Or something to that effect? What I like about that line is the how much meaning there is in it. It’s not JUST about how leaders should serve their people. But how a GOOD leader is burdened by the weight of responsibility. We often think that being rich or powerful is an easy win thing. But it can ALSO be isolating. Think about it, are people trying to get close to you because they genuinely want to be your friend or because they want something from you. Then there’s the pressure that comes with the duty and public eye. That is a LOT of stress. Don’t misunderstand me. I am not saying it excuses bad behavior. I does does not. But it does help to explain things.
Edit: I took a bit for me to write things up So I want to calrify things now that I have had a chance to look at new posts and clarify things.
First of I agree with Saywoot that what Dalinar has done is worse than what Moash has done. And it was a war crime. And frankly I think Dalinar would agree to. I mean that is WHY he is confessing. He hopes to change the country of Alethkar. I think he believes he deserves to be punished.
Second I didn’t mean to say that Dalinar was a good leader. FAR FROM IT. I just meant that being rich or being a leader does not AUTOMATICALLY make one have it easier
@45: As I said, I am aware of the big lines of the Catholic religion so yes, I do know who Judah is, but didn’t he come to regret his actions? Either way, yes, Moash betrays Kaladin, but he comes to regret his actions. He later realizes he has been used, his anger, his need for revenge has been used and made him betray the one person who ever believed in him. Moash feels the stain of his own betrayal throughout his viewpoint: he knows he made a mistake, a grave one, an unredeemable one (he knows there is no going back for him which also guides his later actions), but my point all along remains the fact Moash did nothing which I would personally consider worst than anything young Dalinar did and yet young Dalinar get most readers sympathy…
Dalinar slaughtered his own men in a blood frenzy. Wasn’t this betrayal too? Isn’t there a tactical understanding in between soldiers within the same army they wouldn’t kill each other? Didn’t Dalinar betray the trust his own men had in him when he killed them and hand-waved it away, blaming them for going too close to him, the mighty Blackthorn who needs to kill so badly, he’ll kill anything roaming near, friend or foe? Wouldn’t it be normal for Dalinar’s soldiers to expect Dalinar wouldn’t kill them? And somehow that is more acceptable than Moash betraying Kaladin, knowing he betrayed Kaladin, feeling sorry, feeling regret, understanding he made a mistake? It is more acceptable because it is the great amazing Dalinar who did it? That makes it OK? Because he is a protagonist, because he has one moment where he regrets it all, everything is suddenly fine? After all, who cares about the Rift, they are all dead anyway…
So I disagree Dalinar is to be considered the greatest man: he too betrayed the trust other put in him. He too allowed anger and revenge to guide his actions. So no, as far as I am concerned, Dalinar is not a great man, is not an amazing person: he is an individual who’s gotten more chances than he deserved, who got to be the man he is now because others died for him to learn a lesson, because a deity decided to use him in a war he had no idea was happening. This fact will always taint his progression as it doesn’t matter if Dalinar ends up owning to his actions (decades later), his path was paved with the blood of others and more importantly, he was given something precious Moash never got: time. A lot of time to come around, to waste himself away, to be the worst possible human being (harming his sons in the passage, but again who cares about them anyway?): a luxury Moash is not allowed within this narrative.
I also disagree Moash had an easier life… Oh I so disagree. Dalinar had the easiest life of them all: he did what he wanted, when he wanted without ever needing to care about the consequences. He killed the wrong people? No problem, someone will hand-wave it way. He burned a whole town because he was angry? Oh the poor soul, look he is drinking now…. oh poor sad thing how hard is it for him to have willingly killed all of those people, but that’s OK. Gavilar will tell a sweet little lie for him. So, he has PTSD. And I am supposed to feel sorry for him? He burned a town filled with people for no other reason than “he was angry”. There should be no coming back from this and yet there was and yet Dalinar is still allowed the opportunity to not only redeem himself, but to become a God. Sure, he does take ownership for his actions, but wasn’t the price for Dalinar’s redemption a little high?
And all of this happened because there always were people to cover up what Dalinar did, to hide the fact he was such a beast he murdered his own soldiers, to hide the truth about the Rift because even for Alethi that was too much, to cover up for the men he maimed in taberns and so on. Yes, Moash had Kaladin cover up for him when he first tries to assassinate Elhokar and yes Moash screws it up big, big, big time, but no one is covering up for him now. No one is telling a sweet little lie for him anymore, no deity has an interest in him except the one you don’t want around.
Now, none of this means I am glorifying Moash. I have stated on many, many occasions he had no excuses for his betrayal, he did dig himself into his own hole and he could have made difference choices. The reason I pity him remains the same: I don’t feel he was given as many chances to do good as Dalinar did. The sheer amount of second chances Dalinar is awarded is near insane: just the fact this man is allowed to walk away from the Rift baffles me and will continue to baffle me up until he finishes his book and we get to see other people react, Adolin more specifically.
Moash is not a good person. He’s got his own personality problems (like Dalinar), but I naturally have more sympathy for the man who never fitted in, who watched his grand-parents being unjustly murdered while the culprits walked away than for the man who maimed other men in taverns and got away without consequences. See, that’s the thing, the families of those men, they were filled with “Moashes”, filled with closed-ones who saw their loved-one turn into a vegetable by a man who stands above the law, a man who is allowed to kill and maim whoever he wants without the King doing anything about it because he is his cherished brother…
Dalinar makes a Big Deal out of Gavilar being assassinated, but those poor men he maimed and killed? It hasn’t even crossed his mind they might have had families. So yes, Dalinar, now, has become a more respectable human being who’s trying to do well, but none of it change the fact he never deserved half the chances he got. He got them anyway because of who he was, he ends up doing something with them which is great, but it certainly doesn’t make him a better person than Moash. Not at 25. At 25, well, Dalinar was… not a very nice person and he needed a few decades to start being a decent human being. 25 might not be “young”, but if we are to compare both characters, then I’d like Moash to be the same decades to turn himself around before I throw the towel away and I bow down to Dalinar’s moral superiority.
@48: It doesn’t necessarily make it easier, look at Adolin, but in Dalinar’s case I do believe it did. At least, in young Dalinar’s case, not present-day Dalinar’s case.
How many second chances should a character get while they are willingly doing awful things?
As a reader, I do find it easier to like a character who has ceased doing awful things and changed for the better, than one who continues doing awful things for their own reasons (like Moash or Amaram). I do agree that the former tends to unfortunately just forget about everyone harmed along the way– but at least with those fictional characters I don’t have to worry about them committing more and more harm and waving it away each time with “but they deserve another chance”.
So I guess immedience of the danger is important, at least in who I need to worry about in fiction.
@50 – That’s something I agree with and wrote on an earlier thread a couple of months ago.
Dalinar has already done his worst (I hope) whereas Moash is still going. Yes, what Dalinar has done is far worse that what Moash has done so far (are we even sure about this though, in terms of the bigger picture? Massacre at the Rift – yes, horrible, indiscriminate killing as the Blackthorn, yes, horrible. But that is only within Alekthar. Killing Jezrien has Roshar-wide implications). But in the story being told rather than the backstory (while very important), Moash is going to cause a lot more harm in the future than Dalinar.
When I read Dalinar in the current frame, I know of his atrocities in the past but I also know how he has changed and taken responsibility. I’m reading Moash doing these things in the current frame, with no idea of how he might get better. In fact, I know Moash will get worse in the coming books. That only adds to my overall dislike of him.
On the Moash debate:
Again I think it matters that Dalinar was the guiding force behind his redemption. Nothing he did as the Blackthorn was seen as a condemning offense in the eyes of anyone other than himself. Even the Rift. The cover-up wasn’t due to the atrocity; his brother used that atrocity to quell future rebellious princedom, publicly admonishing Dalinar but saying also that the Mighty Blackthorn is a loose cannon one would be wise to avoid provoking. The cover-up was to hide Evi’s involvement, to keep her from looking like a traitor. The soldiers he killed while in the Thrill trance? He feels guilty about it and tries to make restitution to their families. His actions didn’t make other soldiers refuse to follow him. Those people he broke in the tavern fights? He fought in accordance with the rules and thus no punishment was warranted. If an athlete dies or is injured in a sporting event due to the actions of another athlete acting in accordance with the rules do you arrest them? I don’t attempt to hide my bias. I like Dalinar. And although his younger days certainly take the shine off his apple it isn’t enough for my opinion of him to take a 180 degree turn. I bring up these instances because as far as I can tell, the only Alethi who think his actions were completely loathsome and unacceptable is Dalinar himself. He has gotten much more flack from his peers during his days of honor than he ever got as a warmonger. And instead of saying “woe is me” and just accepting that he’s terrible he actively tries to fix himself. People bring up that he was magically assisted into becoming a better person. One, he was magically assisted to be a terrible person, why can’t it work in the reverse? Two, if he had accepted the opinions of his peers that he did nothing wrong, if he hadn’t gone out of his way to seek redemption then he doesn’t get the help from Cultivation to fix himself. And it would have been so easy for him to live with a status quo where nobody challenges him to be a better person. The only one to attempt to challenge him on his behavior died at the Rift.
Compare this to Moash. An outcast mostly because of his own attitude. His grandparents were silversmiths; he wasn’t rich but by no means poor. I believe that they and he were of the 2nd Dahn, with more money than most Tenners. He could have went into the family trade and been comfortable but throws it away due to wanderlust. He had a place with the caravaneers, a good enough one that a former boss was willing to speak up for him to the Fused. He left his place there too. We all know he had a place in Bridge 4. He betrayed his captain to pursue vengeance against the wrong guy. Where’s his hatred for Roshone? It should have been obvious to Moash that while Elkohar put his grandparents in jail to let them rot that he was weak and easily manipulated. Why no hate for the guy who engineered the entire situation? He’d be a much simpler target to exact revenge upon; Kaladin could even tell him where he was and give a good approximation of his defenses. Moash sabotages himself and anything good in his life, then blames everybody and everything for his lack of prospects. People don’t like him and don’t accept him because he’s a physically imposing darkeyed man? Not buying it.
I can agree that Dalinar had more time to figure out the mess he made of his life. Moash is at the start of his journey. However, Dalinar also had more attention paid to him by the forces ruling Roshar. If their situations were reversed I can see Moash perpetuating 100 Rift incidents. Odium wouldn’t even have to put forth much effort, just give Moash something outside himself to blame and let him loose. Dalinar by contrast would probably always have been a great fighter but he would honor the relationships he gained throughout his life.I don’t know what it’s like for others. Speaking for me, it’s a character thing. Mainly, Dalinar has it and Moash does not.
I think I already said what I wanted to say about Moash in an earlier discussion so I won’t revisit here, but regarding Judas (I assume you meant Judas, not Judah) – he did hang himself but that in itself was seen as (as opposed to Peter, who also betrayed Christ, but was later reinstated) rejecting God’s mercy. Which has also led until relatively recently the idea that suicide is always a mortal sin (it theoretically could be, but most modern theology takes into account the reality of mental illness, especially as mortal sin specifically requires full will and knowledge. I suppose one could even posit Judas suffered from that, so who can say?).
Also, the Catholic Church does NOT definitively teach that Judas is in Hell – the Catholic Church will declare Saints, but it does not declare anybody aside from Satan is in Hell, as it always allows for redemption. This is not to say that one could not reasonably conclude that Judas is in Hell but the Church won’t officially declare it.
Anyway – what I actually intended to say, out of all these comments, that I actually never thought about these letters and where they come from and who is writing them and where. Is there some kind of Cosmere spiritual/cognitive realm post office?
@Lisamarie, pedantry warning!
“Judas” is a Greek way to transliterate the name “Judah”, just as “Jesus” is a Greek distortion of “Yeshua” (which is English-distorted into “Joshua” in English language Bibles, and becomes “Issa” in the Koran). In Greek a man’s name would end in “-us, -os” so early Christian writers (who wrote in Greek) changed some names to sound “right” by adding that ending. All of the Christian Bible books (the Gospels, the Epistles, Revelation) are written in Greek, the language of the Eastern Roman Empire. (There is no evidence, even in the accepted Christian Gospels, that Jesus himself spoke Greek, only Aramaic and Hebrew.)
Anyway, my point being that Gepeto (whose native language, IIRC, is not English) was not wrong when she wrote “Judah”.
@50: How many second chances should a character have while he is doing awful things? I would ask how many second chances Dalinar got while he was still doing awful things?
I find the fact Brandon chose to write Dalinar’s narrative backwards is precisely what allows readers to forgive him, because they know the man he grows into, so when second chances are being given to him, even if he doesn’t deserve them, the narrative makes him deserving. Moash doesn’t have the same luxury as we have no idea where his character is headed, so while it is true he might still do terrible things, he could also do a 180. Like Dalinar.
This being said, given the fact I felt we were running low on villains, I do not mind Moash stepping in to do bad deeds. I find he makes an interesting villain and one I have sympathy for more so I do not get the feeling the narrative is forcing me to like him. Hence, I can like or dislike Moash, I do not have to think less of myself as a reader if I hate him or if I like him.
To me, this makes him interesting and, as I said above, I will not throw away the baby with the bath water until I am sure there is nothing else hiding within those murky waters.
@52: I will always struggle in liking Dalinar. Perhaps it is because I have no experience within the military or it may be because I side more with his kids than with him, but in the end Dalinar always seems like a man who didn’t deserve the second chance he got. He got it anyway because deserving has nothing to do with magic on Roshar: Cultivation doesn’t prune him because he deserved it, she did it because she was playing another game, taking a gamble on him. The Stormfather doesn’t pick Dalinar because he deserved it, he picked him because his first pick died and he had to choose someone else, so he picked the next man standing close who seemed like he could remotely fit the bill.
Young Dalinar was a loose canon, barely controllable, a little more than an animal you keep on a leash. Why was he this way? I have no explanation. Brandon said Dalinar doesn’t have any illness nor disability which could explain his behavior, he said it was all Dalinar, his flaws, his many personality flaws. I am however tempted to say “opposition trouble and ADHD” because those are the markers I do believe would explain why he refuses to obey to rules, why he wanted life to be a free for all where he made his own rules, why he had no empathy and so on.
Brandon also said the Thrill is not always to blame for Dalinar. Dalinar himself admits the Thrill never made him do things he didn’t want to do. The same is likely true for Moash except Dalinar also had positive influence within his life, people who loved him (how could Evi love this man, it is beyond me), people who tried to have him control his inner beast, people who believed in him. Moash doesn’t have the same: everyone he ever got gave up on him, he rejected them. Dalinar too rejected Evi, but she storming came back for him!
Honestly, each time I read young Dalinar I struggle with the same problem: I do not like this man. I do not find him likable. I always try to find something I like within all characters, even those I struggle with, but young Dalinar… I can like older Dalinar, I can respect older Dalinar, but the fact his younger self was so… unlikable, makes it very hard to feel sympathy for his older self.
Of course, I am not saying this in an attempt to convince anyone, I am merely stating how I feel about it.
Moash isn’t a particularly better person, this is true, but I disagree he would have done a 100 Rift. Moash is not Dalinar, he doesn’t have the same love for killing and brutalizing people and, more importantly, when he sought revenge against Elhokar, he killed Elhokar. He didn’t see fit to have every single children living in Kholinar pay the price for their King’s mistake which is exactly what Dalinar did at the Rift. It wasn’t sufficient to merely take out Tanalan Jr, he had to hurt everyone else standing around. And that, we haven’t seen Moash willing to go that far. Yet. But if he does pull out another Rift, you will all see me rant against his character just as strongly as I rant against Dalinar!
Also, we should remember Dalinar too spent a lifetime blaming other people for his actions: we have a WoB which confirms he was willing to ignore consequences of his actions and he sought to blame others for them. The Thrill didn’t have to push very far for Dalinar to be the man he was… and yes, he was given decades to move out of it. Decades and a support system no other character in-world has gotten.
Thus, in the end, I have more sympathy for Moash mostly because I can understand where he comes from, why he behaved this way whereas I have no explanation for Dalinar.
@54: I can’t remember if I saw it written as Judah or Judas: my days learning religion are very, very far in the past. Judah seemed to be the writing which triggered the most memories, so I went with this one. I will certainly not wrestle anyone on theological knowledge having already admitted by own limited knowledge wasn’t sufficient to use it as an argument. I can only speak of what I remember from those classes I had as a child.
@54 – to meet your pedantry with a little more pedantry, the reason I bring it up is because in English, at least, Judah is a distinct person from Judas – think the Kingdoms of Judah and Israel. He was one of the 12 sons of Jacob and leader of one of the 12 Tribes of Israel. So I was just trying to avoid confusion (although there is already plenty to be had when it comes to names in the Bible).
@52 Thank you and well said! Much better than I could express.
Crazy idea. You know how shardholders are supposed to be looking for a part of themselves that is missing but at the same time fight against the impulse of the shard. How about Moash for the new Cultivation? All he does is tear things down but he inspires in OTHERS the desire to be better or to grow. In short you could say he LONGS for it even as he fights against it
@58 BenW
Where do you get the idea that shardholders are looking for a part of themselves that is missing? Is that from a WoB?
@Gepeto, your (justified) reaction to Dalinar makes me want to ask: do you have the same reaction to Vasher/Zahel?
SPOILERS for Warbreaker and its future sequel below.
He and his four friends massacred many, many more people than Dalinar ever killed, apparently just to steal parts of people’s souls to use as raw materials. That’s how Vasher and Shashara got the Breath to create both Nightblood and the God-Emperor.
@Lisamarie: There is at least one other prominent person of that name in the Bible, Judah the Maccabee, who led a rebellion against foreign rule. Note that depending on the translation/transliteration he’s also sometimes recorded as “Judas”.
@60: Not really because Warbreaker doesn’t put a strong lampshade on those events. In other words, we are told Vasher did awful things, but we did not read him doing them and this allows me to be more… emotionally detached.
What makes it difficult with Dalinar (at least for me) is the fact we get to read his viewpoint, we get to be in his head while he was the Blackthorn and it ain’t always pretty. In fact, it is rarely pretty as young Dalinar doesn’t have many redeeming qualities and those he does have a drown within his less redeemable personality flaws.
Not reading Zahel/Vasher’s train of thoughts while he was harvesting people for his experiments really makes a difference, at least to me it does. I can fill in the holes as I see fit and it is just not the same as reading Dalinar deciding he would burn the Rift.
Zahel/Vasher is also not exactly being presented as the Savior of the World, the new Messiah and a God reincarnated such as Dalinar is currently being presented. Sure, he’s a quasi-immortal magical being, but it isn’t quite the same as Dalinar, the Honor-reborn who will likely Ascend and become a new deity.
Hence, the circumstances and the way the narrative was written really makes a difference for me. I also do not feel I should necessarily like Vasher… I do not feel I should pity him and that’s also a big piece of the puzzle on how I am reacting to Dalinar’s character.
Comment @62 unpublished (along with responses). Feel free to restate your opinions about this chapter with less vitriol, in a civil manner, and above all AVOID MAKING DISAGREEMENTS PERSONAL. There have warnings about this before, so let’s be clear: if you cannot engage with commenters with whom you disagree in a calm, civil manner, then do not address/engage with them at all. Please consider this a final warning.
I think I figured out what’s going on with Moash and the whole “Dark Windunner” thing. And if I am correct it has to do with the nature of Voidbinding. When we see the Voidbinding chart it is inverted, and the Glyph for truthwatching also has the double eye inside it. I will come back to that part. Now speaking of inversions. The traits that Moash takes, potecting and leading, are as noted similar to the divine traits of the Herald of the Windrunners. HOWEVER, his oaths, if you can call them that, seem more similar to that of an EDGEDANCER. He is remembering those who have been forgotten, and listening to those who have been ignored.
The problem with the Voidbinders, and I suspect this is by design is that they have no equivalent to a bondsmith. Someone who portrays the aspects of pious and guiding but can follow the oaths of a Truthwatcher. I suspect that is NOT because there is no equivalent spren, but because well look at the traits we NORMALLY see in Bondmiths. Combine that with the need for similar SPIRITUAL DNA and I suspect that Odium was willing to bet that NO ONE woul be able to handle said spren. My guess. Is that soren is what Glys is and that Renarin was the first person to handle all the awful things he was shown without going insane or corrupting from the influence. I could be wrong, but I hope I am on to something.
Permission to expand on idea
So officially back from my trip to Japan with my wife, and finally all caught up with my life that I can now catch up here!
@10 RogerPavelle
I am in the camp of those that feel there is still more yet to be revealed that would lead the Radiants to kill their spren.
@14 Vitiosus
Not sure if someone answers this later, but shards can also communicate to people who are more “open”. This includes emotional, mental illness, and especially connected (i.e. exhibiting a train of that shard). So Odium would be speaking to Moash while he was susceptible, causing Moash to open himself further to Odium. But Moash has to bring himself to a condition of self to be susceptible. That is why I maintain till Moash accepts his self hatred for his own actions, he will never be free of Odium, and now that he has given up his hatred to Odium, I am unsure if it is even mechanically possible for him to come back from that.
@16 toothlessjoe
Interesting theory. I do believe Brandon has commented that had Sazed not picked up the shard and interpreted them the way he did, the result could have been discord. But because of the way Sazed is and how he interpreted the shards, that is why it resulted in Harmony. Also I would like to point out that Sazed comments himself how he made an error in favoring the basin, as it retarded their advancement and that he is trying to help them catch up.
Pattern’s real name is a long sequence of numbers. He mentions this in the books. (edit I see birgit already quoted it)
@21 AeronaGreenjoy
That made me LOL
@23 goddessimho
I like to thing neither Moash nor Dalinar had it easier or harder. They were each individuals who had their own issues and handled it in each their own way. To focus on Moash, I feel what has caused him to spiral into Odium’s clutches is his resistance to accept responsibility for his actions which stems from his self hatred. He did have loving people in his life to support him (his grandparents, his uncle, and the caravaning “family”) and be there for him. Just he chose to instead of looking inward and building, he looked outwards and blamed. Unfortunately there was a society that in many ways supported his feelings to be a scape goat for him. Now that Odium has taken in his hatred, I am not sure how Moash can recover from it.
@24 Braid Tug
Upon reading your post, and seeing Sah’s daughter mentioned again, I do find myself having a degree of dread. When we first met her, I felt it was to humanize the parsh, but considering she was mentioned again, pulled away from her father, I worry if the fused plans for her have just begun.
@26 AndrewHB
My one disagreement with Odium and Chaos, is we have WoB saying that Rayse does not want to pick up any other shards because he is worried it will change him too much. He feels Odium matches him perfectly. That is why he is trying to kill all the other shards, so he is the only top dog. That sounds like what you said a tyrannical absolute monarch type is. Just my own thoughts on the matter
I am not sure if we know the level of knowledge Sazed has about Hoid.
I am not sure the fused are the same as stormform. Stormform still involves bonding a voidspren, while a fused involves an entire entity that by its own admittance, it stated it was different and there was not enough room for both in the body. That is mentioned in the chapter when Venli sees her husband taken over. So I think we are pretty certain the soul is expelled. Now if it gets sent to Braize, or to the beyond, I do not know.
@28 Wetlandernw
I agree
@30 Gaz
We do see in Oathbringer that there is wrestling that is sport enough to be bet on. The opponent forfeited the match to Dalinar so as not to risk being killed during it by accident.
@32 EvilMonkey
Once again, agree on all points
@52 EvilMonkey
Well said :)
@66 BenW
Not to speak for the Moderators, but I do not think you need to ask permission every time you wish to expand on a theory that has to do with the current chapter/reading. Go for it.
@67 Scath
It’s not just the Recreance. It is the reaction when Taravangian reveals the truth. It is the Stormfather’s fear/worry about the truth getting out, and feeling it was justified. Everyone in world seems to make a MUCH bigger deal of this revelation than I think it deserves.
@Scáth: “I am not sure the fused are the same as stormform.” They aren’t. The suggestion was that the remaining Stormform former Listeners were those who later got possessed by the Fused after the creation of the Everstorm. That’s why we don’t see Stormforms in Oathbringer, because the stormspren were forced out of the Parsh bodies by the spirits of the ancestors.
@68 RogerPavelle
Well the reaction to Taravangian revealing the truth is not only to the radiants, but I can understand that from their perspective, the beings they were taught to distrust, are now being told destroyed their own world, and now they are being asked to trust the radiants again. I would be leery myself. But that is not the only thing revealed by Taravangian. Dalinar speaking to Odium was. The high king stuff with Elhokar was. Basically a whole bunch of hidden information. In my opinion thats what causes the huge reaction. It all hitting at the same time. Now as to the stormfather, he is an unreliable narrator in so far as he does not remember the recreance clearly by his own admittance. His priority is not seeing any other spren “killed” and that is the last thing he can remember that came up when it happened, so he assumes thats the sole reason, and that humans cannot be trusted. So the stormfather is an over-reaction and I feel that is on purpose.
@69 Carl
I was responding to Andrew. He was wondering if they both keep the soul of the parsh in the body, but whereas one keeps the parsh in control, the other is taken over by the fused. I was referencing the scene where Venli’s husband is taken over, one of the fused explains there is not enough room in the body for them both, so that says to me the parsh soul gets kicked out. Now whether that means it ends up on braize or the beyond, I do not know, but I was saying that stormform and fused are different in that regard. I checked back at Andrew’s comment, and I am pretty sure I read it correctly. He wondered if there was a chance a parsh could overcome the fused that possessed their body. My thoughts are the parsh is gone from the body completely, as per what the fused said, so that is not possible. Hopefully I clarified my point sufficiently.
@Scáth: sorry, due to different reading schedules I read Andrew’s message and yours on different days and didn’t have the whole conversation in my mind at once.
@71 Carl
No worries! :)
EvilMonkey @52 – Well said!! ::applauds::
@several – There is a lot going into the final Rathalas scene that seems to be ignored in most of the discussion, sacrificed to focus solely on the burning of the city.
1) The first time Dalinar was there, he spared Tanalan Jr. solely because he was just a child, despite his antagonism toward Dalinar. The second battle at Rathalas was brought about because Tanalan Jr. rebelled against Gavilar’s reign; his hatred of the one who killed his father outweighed any gratitude toward the (same!) one who spared his life. Dalinar returns to Rathalas only because the boy he spared has chosen to continue resisting the one who conquered his city earlier.
2) When Dalinar returned, he offered Tanalan a chance for peaceful settlement. Tanalan used that opportunity to lure Dalinar into a trap, killing many of his elites – and it should have killed Dalinar too. For that deception in the midst of what was intended to be a peaceful resolution, Dalinar was determined to teach a lesson that the entire nation would not forget.
3) By the time he returned from the ambush, Dalinar was completely under the Thrill. While this is not a good thing, and even Dalinar doesn’t accept it as justification for his choices, it was certainly a factor – and, incidentally, probably the only reason he survived to return to Rathalas.
4) As EvilMonkey noted above, the story about destroying the city in revenge for Evi’s murder was put about to cover up her actions, not to justify Dalinar’s. Sure, it was viewed as shockingly brutal, but it was also accepted throughout Alethkar as a lesson to be heeded. We in our enlightened 21st-century morality may view it as a war crime, but it’s far less clear that it was viewed so by the Alethi in 1162. As near as I can tell, the very concept of “war crime” would be foreign to them.
Agreeing with Alice, and I’d like to add one thing. Don’t forget that a major theme of Oathbringer and the SA in general is forgiveness. Dalinar puts a metaphorical bow on it when he literally shouts it in the presence of one of his gods!
So in the Rathalas matter, first Tanalan refuses to forgive Dalinar, then Dalinar won’t forgive Tanalan (though Evi personally begs both of them to “do better” [to quote Dalinar again]). Even Murderous Dalinar is very smart, and at some level he realizes what’s happening, which is why he eventually risks everything to beg for forgiveness.