Welcome back to the Oathbringer reread! We hope that you had an amazing holiday break. Alice and I are ready to start off the new year right as we delve into Part Three—Aubree will be back next week. In these chapters, Dalinar’s finally starting to make some inroads on unity, in more ways than he expected…
Reminder: We’ll potentially be discussing spoilers for the ENTIRE NOVEL in each reread. There are brief and very limited mentions of Cosmere happenings, but if you haven’t read ALL of Oathbringer, best wait to join us until you’re done.
Chapter Recap
WHO: Dalinar
WHEN: 1174.1.9.4 (The day after Chapter 57’s Recreance & Odium vision)
WHERE: Urithiru to Thaylen City, via Oathgate
Kaladin and Shallan arrive back from Thaylen City after having opened the Oathgate on that side. Dalinar drops a heavy burden on Kaladin’s life—that of (more) responsibility. When the war is over, he’ll have lands and people to manage in his capacity as a Shardbearer and a brightlord. Dalinar and his retinue activate the gate and step through, finding the destruction that the Everstorm has wrought.
Queen Fen gives Dalinar a tour of the devastated city. They wind up at a temple housing the injured, and Taravangian offers some of his surgeons to lend assistance. Fen agrees. At the last temple, Dalinar confronts Fen’s son and agrees to a duel with him. He allows the young man to stab him in the chest, the wound immediately healing thanks to his stormlight. Disturbed by the message this action sends, he goes to the destroyed temple, which his powers urge him to repair. He does, much to the shock of everyone nearby, then sends for Renarin to come help to heal the injured of the city. Queen Fen finally agrees to join the coalition, and offers some advice on getting the Azish to join as well…
Truth, Love, and Defiance
Title: Burdens
Personally, I’ll count us lucky—you included—if at the end of all this we still have a kingdom to burden us.”
A: There’s a whole conversation on the subject of burdens, and the fact that power brings with it burdens that, wanted or not, are now the responsibility of the one in power. (More on this below.)
Heralds
Talenel, Herald of War, Soldier, patron of Stonewards, associated with the attributes of Dependable and Resourceful, the gemstone Topaz, and the essence Talus.
A: As Lyn will note below, Dalinar is very much in Soldier mode.
Icon
Dalinar’s glyphpair shield, representing his POV.
Epigraph
As a Stoneward, I spent my entire life looking to sacrifice myself. I secretly worry that is the cowardly way. The easy way out.
—From drawer 29-5, topaz
A: Okay, so here’s the thing with the Part Three epigraphs. Remember that wall of drawers Renarin found in the library/cellar, each drawer with its own gemstone? The ones that Shallan and Pattern realized held coded messages? Well, here they are—a few of them, anyway. We’re going to start reading hints from the time before the Recreance, and from before the abandonment of Urithiru. Look for some serious theorizing to happen in the Epigraph discussions!
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Oathbringer
That said, now I’m going to be watching for connections between the epigraph and the Heralds, since we start right of with a Stoneward on a chapter with Taln as the Herald. I never really looked at that before. This time, it’s an interesting personal reflection from someone worried about his life choices. His reflection reminds me of Kalak’s comment on Taln’s approach to battles, from back in the Prelude:
Taln had a tendency to choose seemingly hopeless fights and win them. He also had a tendency to die in the process.
I wonder if this is a common attribute among the Stonewards. I can see where the willingness to risk the sacrifice is a valuable thing in the Soldier, but I’m not so sure about the “looking to sacrifice myself.” It’s a twist on Taln’s proclivity—he chose “hopeless” battles and won them, but this guy sounds like he’s looking for a fight he can’t win. It’s also the opposite of Dalinar’s comments on the burdens of power; it’s like he worries that he’s looking for a way to sacrifice himself so he doesn’t have to bear those burdens. Sometimes living with responsibility is a lot harder than dying.
L: Maybe there’s more to this than we can see right now. Maybe the sacrifice is something intrinsically linked to their powers, like protecting people is Kaladin’s.
A: Uh… duh? That never occurred to me, but I’ll bet you’re right. We don’t know anything solid about the Stoneward Ideals yet, though there’s some speculation that one of their Ideals will be “I will stand when others fall.” It’s someone’s Ideal, in some form, but we don’t know who.
Title: Bondsmith
No, the man he’d been twenty years ago could never have done this.
Bondsmith.
A: Chapter 59 takes its title from Dalinar’s actions of restoring the broken pieces of the temple into the united structure it so longed to be, and his realization that this is one of the things he can do.
Heralds
Kalak, Maker, patron of Willshapers, associated with the attributes of Resolute and Builder, the gemstone Amethyst, and the essence Foil.
A: Even though the title and the focus of the chapter is on Dalinar’s Bondsmith surgebinding, we’ve got Kalak as the Herald. My guess is that it reflects multiple aspects of Dalinar’s situation: not only rebuilding the temple, but his resolute determination to build the coalition among humans to stand against Odium and the Voidbringers.
Icon
Dalinar’s glyphpair shield, representing his POV.
Epigraph
If this is to be permanent, then I wish to leave record of my husband and children. Wzmal, as good a man as any woman could dream of loving. Kmakra and Molinar, the true gemstones of my life.
—From drawer 12-15, ruby
A: And *poof* goes my notion about correlations between the epigraphs and the Heralds for each chapter, right away. I’d have expected this to be from a Willshaper, in an amethyst, but it’s not. The ruby indicates that this is a Dustbringer’s memory. For what it’s worth, it sounds like she’s Thaylen—or at least her husband is, since he and one of their children have very Thaylen names. It’s possible that she’s Alethi, since the other child’s name sounds much more Alethi. I’m happy to see confirmation that the old Radiants married and had kids, though it was probably assumed by most of us anyway. I wonder if the Vorin “lighteyes” are all descended from actual Radiants, and those who become lighteyes from bonding a Shardblade don’t actually pass the genes. Sheer speculation…
Thematic Thoughts
A: As we start the new year, we’re adding a couple of new recurring units. As with any other unit, neither of them will necessarily show up every week, but now we’ve got them when we want them. This one is something I’ve wished for a few times; how often we’ll actually use it, I don’t know. This is the one we’ll use when there’s a lot that ties together in the chapter and we want to keep the whole discussion in one place rather than letting it spread out through the other units. It’s also the one we’ll use when we have a chapter that just… doesn’t fit anywhere. (Like Venli’s previous interlude, for example…) We’re not using it today, but now you’ll know what it’s for when it does show up.
Stories & Songs
Who’s to say what [Odium] can and cannot touch in the real world?
L: I mean… a fair point. Ruin sure did cause a lot of havoc over on Scadrial this way (not that these words can be trusted, not having been written in metal…)
A: There’s so much we don’t know about Odium’s access in the Rosharan system. Is he mostly tied to Braize, and can only directly affect Roshar when the Voidbringers are freed? Or… which one of the gazillion other possibilities we could name? We’ll be finding out right along with Dalinar—and Venli—as the series progresses.
It was a pity to see several statues with the faces broken off.
L: Ah, Shalash has been here, I see.
None of the other temples had fared this poorly. It was as if Odium had a grudge against this one in particular.
L: Probably true.
A: What, you think Odium might have an extra mad on for the only Herald who didn’t abandon the Oathpact? Nah, couldn’t be.
Relationships & Romances
L: Dalinar and Navani’s relationship in this chapter is really sweet. She clearly understands him so well, and loves him dearly despite all his warts.
A: There was a recent discussion on one of the Facebook groups about whether people found Navani’s love for Dalinar believable. I came to the conclusion that, all arguments to the contrary, it’s quite plausible given their culture, and it fits her personality. In any case, I love the way she understands him. She’s an engineer at heart, and it shows in the way she evaluates and responds even to his expressions.
Bruised & Broken
Couldn’t Fen have taken him on a tour to see those Shards instead?
L: Dalinar’s having a bit of a throwback to his jerk-wad soldier days here, I see. It seems to me that lately he’s been better than this. I wonder if it’s just because Odium’s gotten him rattled that he’s reverting to his old behaviors.
A: Hmm. He is impatient with the temple tour, partly because he didn’t understand it until Navani explained the tradition, but he’s always been a soldier, and he still is. While he’s trying to be diplomatic in order to build the coalition, the purpose of the coalition is war—a war for all of humanity. So I honestly can’t blame him for thinking like a soldier, although as a soldier I’m surprised he even thinks that Fen would want to show him their defenses right off the bat.
L: Speaking of old behaviors…
It was shocking, then, to feel his own sudden, stark displeasure. For some reason, those frightened faces hit him harder than the sword had.
L: Poor thing. He’s forced to embrace his dark past for the good of the future, but it’s barbed and cuts him every time.
What had he just accomplished? He said he didn’t want to conquer this people, but what story did his actions tell? I’m stronger than you, they said. I don’t need to fight you. I could crush you without exerting myself.
Was that what it should feel like to have the Knights Radiant come to your city?
L: Man, Dalinar’s really in a rough place here. He’s got this awful reputation that he’s trying to use to his advantage, but every time he does, he’s just playing into these fears that he’s turning back into the man he was. If he plays nice and diplomatically, people don’t trust him because they don’t think he’s being genuine. If he is genuine, he’s turning back into the warlord he hates.
A: Add to that, there’s an internal conflict between the person he is genuinely becoming, and the person he used to be—the guy who legitimately earned that awful reputation. The duel displayed the skills they expected of the Blackthorn, and those skills are still his. The problem comes when his last step was intended to show that he didn’t want to hurt them, and instead is interpreted as contempt. They can’t read his mind and heart, and just see him being so Alethi it stinks.
L: But then…
No, the man he’d been twenty years ago could never have done this.
Bondsmith.
L: There’s another way. There’s always another way.
AA: And it’s beautiful.
Diagrams & Dastardly Designs
Taravangian and Adrotagia finally arrived, followed by Taravangian’s strange Surgebinder, the short-haired woman, Malata.
A: Malata gives me the heebie-jeebies. I could be wrong about this, but I don’t remember ever trusting her at all.
L: Same. There’s just something about her that makes my hair stand on end.
A: We’ve gotten some negative hints about Dustbringers (*ahem – Releasers*) from the in-world books about the Knights Radiant, and Malata seems to fulfill them all. The fact that she’s on Team Diagram… that just makes it worse. Do. Not. Trust. For that matter, do not like either.
L: And the fact that she was on Team Diagram before she was a Radiant makes it even worse.
A: She’s just a nasty piece of work.
Malata joined her, watching over Navani’s shoulder as she fiddled with the keyhole, which was in the center of a ten-pointed star on a metal plate.
A: I suppose any new Radiant would legitimately want to know everything they can about working the Oathgates, but this has a feel of intrusion. (I can’t help thinking I’m being played like a fiddle… I’m reacting just like I’m supposed to!)
Places & Peoples
“As you fly, wave to the lands along the south fork of the Deathbend River. The parshmen may have conquered them by now, but they actually belong to you.”
“…Sir?”
“You’re a Shardbearer, Kaladin. That makes you at least fourth dahn, which should be a landed title. Elhokar found you a nice portion along the river that reverted to the crown last year at the death of its brightlord, who had no heir.”
[…]
“Sir. You know I don’t want this burden.”
“If you’d wanted a life without burdens, you shouldn’t have said the oaths.”
L: Kaladin’s gonna make a great brightlord, though. So much better than that rat bastard Roshone.
A: He has a lot of advantages over Roshone—like not starting out as a rat bastard at a basic personal level! The simple fact that he sees it as a burden, a responsibility rather than a privilege to which he’s entitled, guarantees that he will do his best for those people. Lucky folks—if they ever get a chance to try it out, anyway.
“My family is in northern Alethkar. Now that I’ve practiced flying with the storms, I’ll want to go and fetch them,…”
L: Yaaaaaaaaaaaaay! The idea of Kaladin being able to keep his family well provided for and safe gives me the warm fuzzies.
By spanreed reports, the Voidbringers were slowly moving northward, northward, and had captured much of Alethkar. Relis Ruthar had tried to gather the remaining Alethi forces in the country, but had been pushed back toward Herdaz, suffering at the hands of the Fused.
A: Oh, hey, it’s our old buddy Relis! Just had to point out that he apparently isn’t a complete loser; after being sent home in disgrace after losing the four-on-one “duel” with Adolin, he at least tried to behave like a soldier and stand against the Voidbringers. Given that he’d held both Blade and Plate, and is now fighting with neither (they were given to General Khal after the duel), I’ll give him credit for trying anyway.
Beyond that, many more of these structures had been of wood, particularly in the Loft Wards. A luxury available to a place like Thaylen City, which up until now had been subject only to the most mild of the stormwinds.
A: So in worldbuilding notes, apparently Thaylenah has—or had—a fair amount of forestry in the protected areas. I wonder if they’re far enough south that they don’t get quite as much of the force of the highstorms?
By Thaylen tradition, he would be merely another officer, not the heir. The monarchy of the kingdom was not a hereditary position.
L: I’m curious as to how they choose their next monarchs.
“The council of merchants and naval officers pick the new monarch, after all.”
L: Thank you for immediately answering that question, Sanderson.
A: Heh. Ask and you shall receive! I wonder how often the new monarch is the son or daughter of the previous one, though. It seems like they’d have an advantage in training and experience, if they want it.
“The Azish aren’t as desperate as I am—and frankly, they aren’t Vorin. People here, myself included, respond to a good push from a determined monarch. Strength and passion, the Vorin way. But those tactics will just make the Azish dig in and rebuff you harder.”
A: I’m not sure which I find more interesting: “strength and passion, the Vorin way” or the Azish stubbornness. I love the bits we’re learning about the Azish as we lead up to Dalinar’s meeting with them… and we’ll get there soon. But I wonder: Is “strength and passion” the Thaylen take on Vorinism? Or does the current version of Vorinism lean more toward Odium’s Intent than Honor’s?
Tight Butts and Coconuts
“Stop scowling.”
“I’m not scowling.”
“You’re bored.”
“I’m not … scowling.”
A: ::snicker::
“I suppose it’s possible you’re right. Perhaps the people seeing you be polite and calm is actually bad for our message.”
“More scowls, then?”
She sighed. “More scowls.”
He grinned.
“Or a grin,” she added. “From you, one of those can be more disturbing.”
A: ::gigglesnort::
“I’m not your enemy, son.”
“I’m not your son, tyrant.”
L: I have to.
Dalinar coughed, spat blood to the side, then took the young man’s hand by the wrist, shoving the sword farther through his chest.
L: I’m sorry, all I can see is that scene in The Fellowship of the Ring where Aragorn stabs the orc and it just grabs the sword and does this.
Weighty Words
For a moment, Dalinar felt he could almost understand what they were saying. As if a part of him were stretching to bond to the man.
L: Like the powers that Venli’s eventually going to display. Fascinating correlation, captain.
Meaningful/Moronic/Mundane Motivations
…the aged monarch was weeping openly as he regarded the people in the temple.
L: High empathy day for Mister-T, apparently.
“I need your help, Fen,” Dalinar whispered.
“I find it hard to believe you need anything, considering what you’ve done today.”
“Shardbearers can’t hold ground.”
She looked at him, frowning.
“Sorry. That’s a military maxim. It … never mind. Fen, I have Radiants, yes—but they, no matter how powerful, won’t win this war. More importantly, I can’t see what I’m missing. That’s why I need you.
“I think like an Alethi, as do most of my advisors. We consider the war, the conflict, but miss important facts. When I first learned of Renarin’s powers, I thought only of restoring people on the battlefield to continue the fight. I need you; I need the Azish. I need a coalition of leaders who see what I don’t, because we’re facing an enemy that doesn’t think like any we’ve faced before.” He bowed his head to her. “Please. Join me, Fen.”
“I’ve already opened that gate, and I’m talking to the councils about giving aid to your war effort. Isn’t that what you wanted?”
“Not close, Fen. I want you to join me.”
“The difference is?”
“The distinction between referring to it as ‘your’ war, and ‘our’ war.”
A: I know, that’s far too long a quote. But I couldn’t figure out what to cut, because it’s all so much part of what our Bondsmith is both learning and becoming. Does Fen have any idea how foreign this concept must be to an Alethi, and that there’s much, much more to winning this kind of war than merely having a big army?
Come to think of it, this concept is foreign to pretty much everyone. The Alethi have always been the ones to be feared, because they have the biggest, best-trained army, and they love conquest. The other nations don’t trust Dalinar because he is (at least by reputation) the most Alethi of them all. Each nation is rightfully proud of their particular expertise, but they aren’t used to thinking that their strengths are needed by the big warmonger over there.
Cosmere Connections
Rial saluted him. Again.
“You don’t need to salute me each time I look at you, Sergeant,” Dalinar said dryly.
“Just trying ta be extra careful, sir.” The leathery, dark-skinned man saluted one more time. “Wouldn’t want ta be reported for being disrespectful.”
A: There’s no real basis for thinking this guy is a world-hopper. Even his accent is explained as being from Koron, near the Sunmaker Mountains, and he’s a sergeant from Bridge Thirteen. I guess I’ve just started getting suspicious when a named character with no backstory shows up.
L: Yeah, this guy’s been given too much screen-time to be a nobody. There’s something going on with him, or… there will be. I’m not sold on him being a world-hopper, but he bears watching as the series progresses.
A Scrupulous Study of Spren
[Malata] summoned her Shardblade and inserted it into the slot. The metal of the plate shifted and flowed, matching the shape of the Blade. They’d run tests, and though the walls of the buildings were thin, you couldn’t see the other end of the Shardblade jutting through. The Blade was melding into the mechanism.
A: In my typical fashion, I went down a rabbit trail when I read this, and now I want to know: When Adolin tried to use his Blade in the Oathgate at Narak, it went in but couldn’t activate the mechanism. I’m good with that much, but… did it just go all the way through the wall and stick out the other side? If so, I guess there must have been enough crem build-up on the outside that he didn’t poke anyone with the pointy end, or we’d have heard about it.
Appealing/Arresting/Appraising/Absorbing Artwork
A: Lyn, as the fashion/costuming expert, this is all yours.
L: Oh I am so here for this. So this is Thaylen fashion (if you can’t tell by those oh-so-fashionable eyebrows), which is rather fitting (get it? Fashion? Fitting? I’ll see myself out) since these chapters have to do with Thaylen City. I’m loving these gathered skirts under tunics and/or overskirts, with the bold contrasts and patterns. It’s very lovely. I wish we could see a full-color version of this illustration!
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The Ruin of Kings
A: They really are beautiful. It makes me wish I were a better seamstress, so I could make one of these. I swear if I could do that much, I’d find a way to make those eyebrows happen!
L: It would be doable with lace and wig wefts… but time-consuming. /cosplay mode off
Sheer Speculation
A: Loonie theory time! As you may have observed, I like to wax speculative from time to time. I’ll attempt to collect those speculations in this section, at least for a while. We’ll see how it goes. This may or may not prove useful.
Also, I don’t think I have any loonie theories this week. Just… introducing the title, as it were.
Quality Quotations
- Though the Stormfather had returned to his previous self-confident ways, Dalinar could not shake the memory of the mighty spren whimpering in fright.
- Transferring only the control buildings, instead of the entire platform, should save us Stormlight.
A: I just had to mention this, because it’s the next step in their Oathgate learning-curve: There’s more than one way to use the Oathgates. It doesn’t say how they figured this out, but it’s a nice thing to have discovered. Also, it’s a good thing the default is the whole platform and the next step is transferring just the control room. A whole lot more people would have died at Narak if it were the other way around. And… we wouldn’t have much of a story! Guess the author did it this way on purpose, eh?
- Once Elhokar and Adolin returned from the mission to rescue Kholinar, they’d need to get on with Elhokar’s highking arrangement.
A: Ping ping ping. Keep this on your radar…
- “I should have seen it earlier—I should have sent for [Renarin] the moment I saw those wounded. I’m a fool.”
L: He’s not wrong.
A: Agreed.
Next week, we’ll join Kaladin in chapters 60 and 61, as his team begins their mission to Kholinar.
Alice would like to wish you all the best in the new year. She also invites you to watch along on brandonsanderson.com, as a new progress bar for Stormlight Archive Book Four should be coming soon!
Lyndsey is just beginning to delve into the real work of convention organizing, as Anime Boston is looming on the distant horizon. If you’re an aspiring author, a cosplayer, or just like geeky content, follow her work on Facebook or her website.
Ok, so, I wasn’t able to ask my question when I saw Brandon (I went with a different one about the Recreance, that got a surprisingly good answer) but I was going to ask if Dalinar used Tension at all in his rebuilding of the temples. I’m not sure if Spiritual Adhesion is enough to do what he did. Tension makes sense from a physics standpoint. The tension between components would hold it together naturally.
How…did Dalinar repair the temple?
Someone asked Sanderson on reddit and he did not answer.
https://wob.coppermind.net/events/361/#e10951
@2 – Ugh, he asked two questions! So I’m not sure if Brandon meant the RAFO for the first one or the 2nd or both.
I’m on team “don’t trust Malata.” I don’t have any real evidence beyond her association with Taravingian, but isn’t that enough?
So first, I appreciate the addition of the map. It gives a sense of the world, while also reminding us where we are and in relation to what is going on. I would love to find someone taking the map, and coloring it at each point of the book red, blue, and etc as sides change, and odium’s forces expand. I will need to learn some photoshop and such but I may undertake that :)
I love this chapter because it shows Dalinar in the process of growing. Not just his before, not just his after, but the actual growing pains as it occurs. His old habits do not serve him anymore, and he has to learn a new way. First it was with the high princes, and now it is with world leaders. Much like Elend in Mistborn, he needs to find a way to balance the parts of him that were the Blackthorn that were beneficial, with the man he is becoming.
Gotta say I loled when I read the part about Taln’s Temple being especially wrecked. It seems even Shards can be stymied lol.
I too appreciate Navani and Dalinar’s love. It is a steady love of adults. Mature, and warm. It shows a nice contrast to the typical forms shown in novels that are young, tumultuous and chaotic.
I like how Dalinar reminds Kaladin that being a radiant is a responsibility and a burden. The oaths are a constant reminder of this.
@3,
I assumed he gave RAFO on both.
I like Dalinar and Navani as a couple. Missed their dynamic in the secind book. Fortunately, this book has it again. They complement each other so well.
@@.-@ – Well, there’s competing thoughts that have not yet been reconciled…
– We see the Radiants as the Big Good, because that’s what all our heroes are trying to be.
– Surgebinding was apparently responsible for humanity’s homelessness and initial arrival on Roshar.
By elimination, one of these things is required to be not as true as we’ve been told.
That makes Malata easy to suspect. Later events in the book (Renarin’s revelations) makes it even easier, and plenty of others (the Recreance, mutters that the Knights were set up by the Heralds to organize out-of-control surgebinders) throw shade on the Knights Radiant and the bonding spren as forces of good to begin with.
@@@@@ #8 Radhil — I think it was hinted that the original surgebinding that humans could do was actually Voidbinding
I’m guessing that the Oathgates function in a different way than you are putting forward. We know from the next section that they are controlled by spren in the Cognitive Realm. So, my thought is that the “keyhole” is actually a small gate to that realm through which the KR’s spren (in blade form) can communicate with the larger gate spren, indicating where they want to end up. The blade spren would also provide the link (or bridge) between the two realms since they are partially in both.
The problem that Adolin ran into is that his blade is “dead” and therefore not able to communicate properly with the gate spren.
@10 RogerPavelle
I really like your theory on the oathgates. Makes a lot of sense to me. The dead spren blades would lack the cognitive sapience to communicate with the oathgate spren.
RE: Epigraph’s and Stonewards – Serious, “Death is lighter than a feather” vibes coming up there.
Alice: We do not know if Relis’s character was changed when he heard the screaming from when Kaladin palmed the ShardBlade. Alternatively, it is also possible he did not change. He may have still had access to family Shards that were not part of the duel. I will reserve my judgment on whether he has changed until we learn more.
Thanks for reading my musings.
AndrewHB
aka the musespren
@13 AndrewHB
That reminds me, do we ever get the name of the Alethi nobleman that the Herdaze feed to “the hog”? Would be ironic if that ended up being him, though I don’t think that is the case. Just random thought that popped into my head
@14: That guy is Sheler. Who apparently was the officer that got Tien killed, in addition to being a rapist and all-around scumbag. Sometimes karma ensues.
I also love Dalinar and Navani together. They seem more like a couple happily married for 30 years than newlyweds, but I personally find it believable considering that they were around each other often since adolescence and knew each other so completely before they became romantic. I am interested to see if their relationship will change when Dalinar can read and write since right now they really work as partners with completely different skill sets due to the Vorin separation of sexes. Somehow I think Navani will just be relieved to not have to read everything to him but will still often scribe, etc. since she is more familiar with the style expected.
@15 necessary eagle
LOL, I did not realize that. That is hilarious! Karma indeed. Thanks for the info!
Does Kaladin’s family want to be ‘fetched’? They wanted to stay and take care of their people when Kaladin visited them.
The setting of the Oathgate they found doesn’t have to be the default. If the last time it was used was to evacuate the city it makes sense that they used mass transport mode then.
@Scáth
Good observation on the parallel between Dalinar and Elend. I will point out that it seems they are on same line moving towards being good leaders and further, the leader their world needs in the face of an apocalypse, yet they are approaching that point from different directions. Elend was a clown that no one took seriously while anybody who dismissed the Blackthorn was sent to the grave long ago. That’s just one instance. I could probably think of a dozen more. You guys probably can pull up exact examples from the text. All I’ll say is that it’s enlightening to see.
@15 – Wasn’t that a guy named Varth? At least, it seemed like that was his strategy.
I liked the saying the “Shard bearers can’t hold ground”. They are offensive weapons used in the fight but need to be something else once that battle has been won. Dalinar needs Fen to learn how to win hearts.
@19 EvilMonkey
Thank you. I think it is interesting how they come from different “directions” but with the same goal. Just like Brandon told the “same” story in era 1 mistborn as era 2 but from a different perspective (rebels in era 1, lawmen in era 2), so too I think is the intention with Elend and Dalinar. That a “fop” and a “warmonger” can both change to be something more, and that there can be good in both. Elend needed to find the grit, and toughness of the Blackthorn, while Dalinar needed to find the diplomatic, and learnedness/bookishness of Elend. I also think the point is that both holds the other’s traits inside them all along. Originally they deny that part in themselves only to come to learn in time it is a part of them that they can grow from. Shame Elend and Dalinar can never sit down and talk. I feel it would be both funny and interesting to see them realize how they started so diametrically opposed, but came to be so similar in the end.
@20 Austin
Looks like you both are sorta right. Sheler was a brightlord commander in Amaram’s army. He commanded the messenger squad. He is the one that assigned Tien to a regular squad that needed reinforcements. Varth was the squad leader to that squad and he was the one that set Tien up in the position that lead to his death. So kinda a trickle down effect? Once you both brought it up, I got curious and did some digging. At least that is what is said on the Coppermind about each. Haven’t had a chance to refer to the scenes in book yet.
@23 – Looking at my copy of WoK, Sheler is only mentioned in the context that it is his company where the messenger squad is located. That’s it. I don’t think he has anything to do with Tien’s death.
I would have loved to see the discussion on whether or not Navani’s love is plausible or not. This would have been my kind of discussion. My take on it is while it probably is plausible, it lacks context. Why? How?
I also enjoyed hearing out about Relis again. It makes me hope Brandon will find a way to tell us what happened to Jakamav. I have been curious.
re: malata…
“Spark is fine with what we’re doing,” Malata said, pressing her finger down and adding another swirl to the table. “I told you, the rest of them are idiots. They assume all the spren are going to be on their side. Never mind what the Radiants did to Spark’s friends, never mind that organized devotion to Honor is what killed hundreds of ashspren in the first place.”
Oathbringer, Kindle Edition, page 1002
@27 FSS
I still have my crackpot theory that Malata is actually a spy on the Diagram, and she will end up on the good guys side in the end, even though I have no evidence to back it up whatsoever lol. Even if she ends up “bad” all the way to her end, (which she probably will), there has been a WoB that says we will see a new Releaser in the next book, Can’t wait!
Questioner [PENDING REVIEW]
Any new Dustbringers in Stormlight Four?
Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]
Yes, there will be.
RE: Brightlord Kaladin
I’m of the opinion that Kaladin would make a horrible brightlord. First, he has (to some extent) the same attitude towards brightlords that Moash has (for much the same reasons), although he’s learned to temper those based on who he is working with. He’d be absentee for long periods of time training Windrunners and doing jobs for Dalinar, which leaves control in the hands of someone else (for good or bad, depending on the person). He’d have problems administering justice since he wouldn’t want to harm either side, and could probably sympathize with both.
His parents, on the other hand, would probably be great as stewards, so the locals might benefit from that more than anything else.
Scáth, I can do that with the colors. It would be easier if the nations on the map had more defined country borders, but I’ll see what I can do.
@26, what do you mean by plausible, Gepeto?
The two chapters this week blended together so well I didn’t realize I’d finished the second one until I’d started chapter 60… guess I’m a little ahead now!
I loved how Dalinar had to reach beyond himself a bit to find something that would bring the Thaylens to his cause. And I love that it was rebuilding a temple and having Renarin help heal people. So different from how they are normally viewed as Alethi. Dalinar tried to be diplomatic in a Thaylen way… which he sucked at. Then in a traditional Alethi way… which was great except it didn’t work. So he went outside the box.
I love the epigraphs with the gemstones are such a good look into the past Radiants… too bad the theory with the chapter Heralds didn’t work out
These epigraphs we’re in now, with the messages from the Radiants, are probably my favorite set from the series so far.
Speaking as a self-appointed Typo Detector: Talenel, not “Talnenel”.
WoB says no. Some are, some just genetically have light-color eyes like here on Earth.
“The council of merchants and naval officers pick the new monarch, after all.” Hello, medieval/Renaissance Venice. When you think about it, Thaylenah is not that unlike Venice in some ways.
Is it worth mentioning that Rial is similar to both “Iriali” and “Scadrial,” and an acronym of “Liar”? (The Iriali may be from Scadrial for all we know.)
Hey, Lyndsey: I’ve organized a few cons in my time. (My time is 1978-this year.) Do you belong to the SMOFs list?
@33 – Fixed, thanks!
@30: I meant I think it is possible for readers to come up with realistic reasons which explain why Navani is so infatuated with Dalinar. Hence, her love for Dalinar may be believable or plausible, but it may also be the narrative didn’t give enough context for other readers to view it in the same manner. Which is why I asked the why and the how? Why did Navani love Dalinar so much? How did she come to love him so much? Why wasn’t she bothered by his less picture perfect moments? What was it which attracted her to him? What was in this love which made it survived for so long? Context is not entirely clear, so it is up to readers to make it up using the narrative elements they do know of.
I thought it was realistic some readers wouldn’t find it “plausible” whereas others, using the same narrative elements would. Still, I find this would have been a very interesting conversation to read. What makes a romance believable for some readers and what doesn’t for others? The discussion is also relevant for all other romantic relationships.
If we’re just looking at WOK then the romance between the 2 oldsters seems like a stretch. What makes Navani so passionate about Dalinar that she constructed and burned a justice glyph in the middle of a hostile warcamp when she hears of his death? WOR doesn’t shed much light on the matter either IIRC. It’s in OB where we get some of that payoff at least from Dalinar and his perspective. A little of Navani too. I mean she practically raised his kids when Evi died. All that is to say as time passes and the narrative develops the romance has become more and more plausible. I don’t expect that to change.
As for the ASK shipping war, I have no wish to be firebombed today.
Austin @1 – So… what was your question, and what was the answer? Inquiring minds want to know! As for the Surges, I think there’s someplace later where Stormpop tells Dalinar that he has another Surge he hasn’t really used yet, isn’t there? And since we know he uses Spiritual Adhesion to gain languages from people, I assume he’s using Physical & Cognitive Adhesion in this scene. But… who knows. Kaladin was using some aspects of both of his Surges from the beginning, so it’s possible that this also is a combination usage.
Radhil @8 – We really don’t know the whole story yet – exactly what kind of Surgebinding was used on Ashyn, what the limitations were, etc. It’s almost certain that it was powered by Odium’s investiture, which is presumably what makes it “Voidbinding” as opposed to the use of Honor’s & Cultivation’s combined investiture on Roshar; there may be other significant differences as well. We just don’t know enough yet!! I’ pretty sure that when we know the whole story, it will be just as muddled as most of human history in terms of “good guys” and “bad guys.” We may find out that the humans didn’t exactly keep their side of the bargain, but the parsh weren’t exactly pure and innocent either. Or they were getting along okay, and Odium managed to “unmake” the Unmade and sneak them in to stir up trouble that neither side would have gotten into without “help.” Or… who knows. I’m just looking forward to finding out more!
Roger @10 – Nice theory! I like that. If the keyhole is a tiny stable junction into Shadesmar, then it doesn’t matter what you poke into it, it’s going to stick out into the Cognitive Realm instead of trying to go through a wall. Perhaps that’s also related to what happened with the Kholinar Oathgate later – Sja-anat fiddled with the junction and instead of swapping physical locations with the Urithiru building, it swapped realmatic locations. Sort of turned the keyhole inside out, as it were.
AndrewHB @13 – I wouldn’t suggest that Relis has actually changed much; we never knew very much about his character in the first place. I just thought it was worth noting that despite his blatantly unfair behavior wrt: the “duel” with Adolin, he still behaved like a trained soldier and stepped up to the task of trying to organize the Alethi to resist the Fused conquest of Alethkar.
Roger @29 – I don’t think Kaladin would make a particularly good day-to-day brightlord if that’s all he had to do. He wouldn’t be awful like Roshone, but he’d make other mistakes. It would be pretty awesome to see him ask his dad to be his steward, though; I’d bet Lirin and Hesina would be an amazing team in that role!
Re: the question of “is Navani’s love for Dalinar plausible” – It was an interesting discussion, and very similar to some we’ve had here. The OP asked whether anyone else questioned Navani’s interest in Dalinar, once we learned what kind of man he used to be. The responses varied from “I really don’t trust her!!” to “Given their culture, it’s absolutely believable that she would find the Blackthorn attractive.” (My favorite was this one: “Projecting our cultural soft first world views on a warring society that views the highest achievement for a man is that of a warrior is comparing apples to oranges.” and the response: “Apples to hand grenades!”) Some people love the romance, and find it entirely believable. Some don’t see how a woman could overlook the bloodthirstiness. Some find her actions too convenient, and not believably emotional. It seems to depend partly on a lot of factors on the part of the reader: expectations, imagination, experience, personality, etc. There wasn’t really a conclusion; there usually isn’t with a facebook debate. But it was interesting to read, nonetheless. Reading through people’s reasons for why they believed or didn’t believe it really helped me clarify my own opinion – which is that Alethi culture and an engineer’s personality (to which I can relate in most ways) make her values and behaviors completely believable to me.
@29 RogerPavelle
I do not think Kaladin would necessarily make a horrible brightlord, but he would definitely at the very least need a steward to act like Sigzil does to keep track of all the book-keeping and such. I do agree his parents would make great stewards and allow him to have even less needed hands on with his place. Though now that I think about it, that may not be a great idea in the end. As Dalinar said, it is a responsibility. Just handing off the responsibility to someone else I do not think would end well for his lands. True they would be more qualified, but I think he should at least receive training so he can make informed decisions, instead of just deferring to whatever his steward decides. Otherwise the people he rules may feel he just doesn’t care.
@30 Lyndsey Luther
That would be awesome! If it is too much trouble, I wouldn’t want you to take time away from your cosplay work, and article writing contributions, but if you are able I think that would be a great addition. Thank you!
@31 Joyspren
I agree in every way :)
@32 whitespine
I agree :)
@36 EvilMonkey
I agree, that scene with the burned justice glyph is the big one that informs, to me at least, that Navani’s love for Dalinar and her family is genuine. It is all from her POV, so those were not crocodile tears. It is beautiful to see a level of companionship and even friendship in their love.
@37 – So we floated the theory around here that the Recreance was caused by a series of events, rather than finding out that humankind were the original Voidbringers (which doesn’t seem to be a good enough excuse to kill your spren). One of the events that I theorized is sufficient enough for the Radiants to kill their spren was the enslavement of the Parsh, combined with the knowledge that surgebinding destroyed their last planet. Robbing an entire species of free will feels like a grave enough display of power that would warrant the mass murder of spren.
So, with that in mind, I wondered about the timing of the Parsh enslavement in relation to the Recreance. I asked Brandon how close was that event was with the Recreance and whether it played a big role. He said it definitely played a big role and that it happened within a few decades of the Recreance. I’m hoping the question and answer is the Houston recording (which seems to be very slowly transcribed on the coppermind).
@36: Did Navani really raise Dalinar’s son? All the narrative told us is she and Jasnah made sure Adolin went to his lessons. We have scenes which indicate Jasnah is very close to Renarin, but is it enough to conclude they raised them? Honestly, I figured out the boys raised themselves… Given how they both grew up with somewhat similar issues with self-esteem and self-worth, I thought it made sense given their mother died and their father wasn’t really there for them. Their extended family was “around”, but I didn’t get the feeling they were really involved all that much.
@38: Thanks for the additional insights!
I personally do not find Navani an opportunist, I do not believe she pursued Dalinar for other reasons than wanting to do it, but I still find the romance… lacking. Even from Dalinar’s side, why was he so attracted to Navani? From my perspective, his interest in her seemed like mere infatuation increased by the fact she was denied to him, so why did it last for so long? It has never been clear, at least to me, what he loved so much about her, why he fancied her so much. I will be honest and my interpretation of the feast flashback, the one where he meets Evi, was of a young man still angry he couldn’t get the woman he fancied and ended up fancying her even more for it. He put her on a pedestal which is why how neither Navani nor Dalinar ended disillusioned over their younger years crush was baffling to me.
And Navani doesn’t strike me as a woman who’d look kindly on a man being so abrupt with his own children. She was described as “mother hen” back in WoR, she seems to care about children, so how was it she loves so much a man who, well, has been everything but a good father to his own sons? She witnessed Dalinar being away, not caring about Renarin, being a drunk, chastising Adolin, rejecting him for resembling his dead mother, not remembering Renarin’s own name… so how was it her “crush” remained intact? I can buy she wasn’t put off by his… warrior qualities as Alethi are, well, warriors, but how about everything else?
In other words, I didn’t read the passion I would expect to read to pull off the kind of relationship they have. I also felt Navani was too convenient as Dalinar’s supporter, never disagreeing with him, always supporting him, never questioning him… As a reader, I wondered what was the purpose of writing in this romance if Navani wasn’t going to offer a third person’s perspective on Dalinar’s decision making?
So was it believable? Probably so, but did I feel it? Did I feel the love and the passion? Not really… Now this is of course my own personality as an emotional driven individual, but I didn’t feel it. I didn’t feel why and how, I didn’t feel the long lost love, mostly from Navani’s part. I thought merely telling me they have once loved each other, went apart and are then able to be together, while plausible, wasn’t enough to make me feel it.
So my personal grain of salt is I can feel other romances, but I cannot feel theirs. I can rationalize why it exists and I can back-engineer how it happened, but I do not felt it.
Love the hand grenade quote! That one would have gone down badly within many discussions I have seen… I am glad your facebook group is able to have those discussions without thinking less of each other.
RE: Dalinar and Navani’s relationship
I think the issue is that we don’t see the start of their relationship. They presumably knew each other for a long time before the first flashback in Oathbringer, certainly long enough for Dalinar to have developed his feelings for her. Why would it be unrealistic for her to have developed similar feelings at the same time?
If the question is why she doesn’t reject him due to his actions as the Blackthorn, why should she? He was celebrated for those actions by all the Alethi (or at least the ones around her in the capital). Plus, she saw Evi’s devotion to him, his generally positive treatment of her, and knew his potential. Nothing to question except modern cultural norms being applied to a militaristic, semi-medieval culture.
@42 RogerPavelle
I agree. We see with Gavilar he had a sparse relationship with his children as well. Jasnah commented on his interest in the parshendi being the most personal time she ever spent with him. So Dalinar not being around his kids would not be all that unusual. However I would also point out how Navani did scold Dalinar for being away so often, as per Evi when she visited Dalinar in the warcamp. I do think it is sweet how it is commented on (I believe Adolin or Renarin state) how Navani is motherly to them. She could not be with Dalinar, but she would be there for his children, and help raise them in honor of Evi. Honestly if Evi didn’t die, and quite a few circumstances didn’t come into play (the Thrill, and so on), I could see in modern day Dalinar and Evi amicably getting divorced, and remarried to Navani, with all three raising the children together in respectful harmony. Now I preface that with again, a whole lot of things would have to not come into play, which is why I said modern day on Earth. Navani did say although she wanted to hate Evi, she instead came to love her.
edit: hmmm having trouble finding who to attribute the quote to regarding mother hen. I searched the kindle for navani mother, navani hen, and so on and no luck. Reddit says Dalinar mentions it. Will dig further to try and locate the specific wording.
edit 2: found it! and now i know why i couldn’t. it wasn’t mother hen, it was mother axehound lol. Quote below
Words of Radiance page 886 “Dalinar found himself smiling. Navani pointedly ignored Shallan’s protests that none of this was necessary. The mother axehound had finally emerged. Shallan was apparently no longer an outsider, but one of Navani’s clutch – and Chana help the man or woman who stood between Navani and one of her own.
I took that to mean the Thaylen modified version of Vorinism. Queen Fen did mentioned previously that a significant proportion of the Thaylen population does follow the Passion religion rather than Vorinism. I just assumed that the passion religion originated from the humans when they originally arrived on Roshar and thus that it was originally from Odium. And over the millenias the Vorin religion took some part of it.
Discussion here made me realize: the only non-competitive relationship Alethi seem to have is parental. Obviously not everyone is as extreme about it as the Highprinces, but in general the Alethi are primed to treat everything as “The Contest” … except parent/child and grandparent/grandchild, apparently. And maybe spouse/spouse, now that I think further. In particular, brother/brother seems to sometimes be quite competitive, even when there is strong affection and bonding at the same time. (Have we seen Alethi sisters at all?)
@44 Kaboom
Here is everything we know so far about the Thaylan Passions:
Botanica
We know that the Passions are a religion or a set of superstitions from Thaylenah. But what are the “Passions” exactly? Are they a group of Gods who represent various kinds of “Passion” worshipped by the Thaylen people? If not, are those “Passions” simply a set of ideals believed by the Thaylen people? Are there any connections between Thaylen Passions and Alethi Thrill?
Brandon Sanderson
The Passions could be called a religion, but there are those among the Thaylens (and to a lesser extent, other peoples) who would argue that it’s more a philosophy. Or a companion religion. Much like Shinto and/or Confucianism co-exist in some places with Buddhism.
However, there is not formalized theology, despite various thinkers and gurus expressing their thoughts on the matter. The central idea is that Passion equates to Action, and the cosmic belief that wanting something draws it to you. This idea is reinforced by the spren, obviously.
Phantine
Ah, so basically some people treat it as a fundamental way of life, and some people just treat it as The Secret?
Brandon Sanderson
Yes, you can see it as a Rosharan version of the Law of Attraction, though some people have taken it further into a more religious fundamental.
Questioner
Navani’s emotion fabrial, are those correspondent to the Thaylen Passions in any way?
Brandon Sanderson
Yes, but the Thaylen Passions would’ve come second to some of this.
Questioner
So through a cultural filter?
Brandon Sanderson
Yes. There is no magic to the Thaylen Passions, they are a religion but with no magical component. Sometimes a religion is just a religion.
Questioner [PENDING REVIEW]
About the Passions. Are they related to Odium, or is there something bigger cosmere-wide?
Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]
They are related to traditions from the past that were Odium-influenced. So, they are technically related to Odium in that sort of method. More in a roundabout way, though.
@45 Carl
To the best of my recollection, I think you are right in that I do not believe we have seen an interaction between Alethi sisters. Brothers make sense because that would decide who rules the house, or title (for instance in the Davars), but I am not sure regarding women. It is a possibility because we have seen three instances now where women have ruled without issue (though two of those were semi regent positions, Aesudan, and Ialai, while Jasnah’s is full on Queen). So if women can rule theoretically without problem (as long as they have the power to back it up, considering a person is only a highprince when they have enough people support them), then I could see women being competitive to rule a house/title. I think if that is true, it would speak more to Jasnah’s character since, (as per WoB), seeing the shadow Gavilar cast over Elhokar, she kept her distance to minimize Elhokar’s sense of self doubt. WoB about Jasnah and Elhokar below
Mrs. Jofwu [PENDING REVIEW]
If you had to characterize in a few sentences, as adults, what the relationship was like between Jasnah and Elhokar…?
Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]
As adults. Their relationship is that of a fond-but-unyielding sister and a earnest-but-insecure brother.
Mrs. Jofwu [PENDING REVIEW]
So they were affectionate?
Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]
Yes, I would say they were affectionate. Not as much as, maybe, some other siblings. Like, you can look at Renarin and Adolin and see genuine affection. With Jasnah and Elhokar, it is almost… there’s definitely some affection, but there’s almost more of an allegiance. Like, they’re both dealing with certain pressures upon them, and their lives were very much consumed by their pressures, and they had that in common. But, I mean, Jasnah’s not a hugger anyway, if that makes sense?
Mrs. Jofwu [PENDING REVIEW]
There was no jealousy between them?
Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]
Oh, there was definitely jealousy on Elhokar’s part. Definitely, the insecurity there. But Jasnah, was… I mean, she was a little bit aware of it, but… you know how she is, right?
Mrs. Jofwu [PENDING REVIEW]
I didn’t know if that contributed to why she removed herself from the Shattered Plains.
Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]
Yes, a little bit. I mean, her quest was more important to her than any of that. But… you know. Let my brother not live in as many shadows. Because he had a lot of shadows that he had to live in. And she was one of them, certainly. That would’ve been a consideration to Jasnah. But if had been right to stay, for her quest, she would have.
@21 I know I’m late, but the saying “shard bearers can’t hold ground” means that a shard bearer can gain ground, but can’t hold it, as he will be surrounded and die a death of a thousand cuts, shard bearers need an army to back them up.
@21 goddessimho and 47 smaugthemagnificent
Little tidbit of info, Brandon likely got inspiration for this saying from cavalry on earth. They are quick, and hit hard, but they cannot hold ground either. It is all in how you effectively use your troops in war.
@46 Scath
Thanks for the WOBs. As usual things are more complicated that they seem at first. But the last one leads me to believe still of a distant Odium origin, at least in the name.
@49 Kaboom
No problemo. Wasn’t posting it to disagree with anything you said. Just adding info. As you said, it does look like as per the WoB that there is an influence from Odium in their religion. It does not seem to be magically inclined, but culturally. I would be interested to find out how it came about tangentially related to Odium. For instance how there is a theory that the reason why pork was deemed haram, was due to pigs being omnivorous scavengers which could cause sickness upon eating depending on the carrion and refuse they eat. This practical practice became so interlaced within the religion, that now even though we have sanitary means in which to care for pigs and produce pork, it is still forbidden by the religion. So it makes me wonder what Brandon could have come up with that happened ages ago that could have lead to the passions.
Anthropologist Marvin Harris pointed out that the “pigs carry disease” theory can’t be right, because all domestic animals carry disease. (Google “brucellosis” some time, or “bovine tuberculosis”, or “avian flu”, or ….) He argued that the real benefit of non-susophagy was initially that in arid non-forested environments, pigs are economically destructive. Of course, Harris was at least partly making a consciously Marxist argument.
Why is that relevant to Roshar? Just came to me: we have WoB that Rosharans were very largely disease-free until
SPOILERS FOR COSMERE STUFF BELOW. (Someone on a previous thread requested warnings.)
… until worldhoppers appeared in the Clearlake carrying the common cold, which Rosharan “humans” are so vulnerable to that it is almost their Spanish Flu, a plague. I just now realized that this is an analogy to the Guns, Germs and Steel effect, that because Rosharans have only a few mammalian domestic animals, they aren’t exposed to as many zoonotic diseases as us real-world moderns, so their immune systems aren’t as primed to fight off parasites and pathogens. Aside from the Shin, who live in a much more Earth-like environment, they are analogous to the pre-Columbian Americans, who were devastated by disease when Europeans and Asians and Africans appeared. Jared Diamond argues convincingly in the above GG&S that this is because the Old World cultures had lots of domestic animals and the Americans had few. See also the absolutely brilliant 1491 by Charles C. Mann.
Note that I say “mammalian” domestic animals. Mostly Rosharans keep native crustacean-analog animals, which presumably can’t be infected by the same pathogens, since they’re literally alien life-forms.
@51 Carl
Very interesting. I was more intending to use the example to illustrate how something practical at the time, though unrelated to the religion, can ultimately become so intertwined with the doctrine, that ages later, it is still practiced despite no longer having the need. But thank you for the interesting tidbits and added info! Roshar on whole is not very arid (given the continual storms), but there are non-forested areas where farmers do have pigs. How do you think Harris’s theory would manifest there?
@48 Scath
that’s actually really interesting, I didn’t know that that maxim was a cavalry origin. The more you know.
@53 smaugthemagnificent
Thanks. Just to clarify, I meant the saying in the book could have been inspired by the practice with calvary. I am not sure if there was ever a maxim that stated that. It is just how they are employed. Calvary works best on a charge, or through mobility to prevent retaliation. The horses lose their strength by remaining stationary which is what would be needed to hold ground (dig in, fortify, etc). Also interestingly but in doing a little digging, apparently the same is thought regarding tanks. They need troop support. The sound of the engine alone to the operators would prevent them from hearing the enemy and limit their situational awareness. Modern tanks are better outfitted, but still run into this issue. This would apply to shardbearers because there are only so many directions a shardbearer can look at one time.
@Scáth yea, I bet shard bearers are treated much like modern day armor units, a shard bearer or 2 with unit of infantry for support, as is the case of adolin and dalinar with the cobalt guard.
@Scáth, Rosharan ecology is so different from Earth’s (again, outside of Shinovar) that it’s hard to compare. Generally pigs are economically a plus for human cultures when they can be fed on garbage, or when they can forage for themselves for most of their food, which here means usually in forested environments. Pigs might be able to feed themselves in some ecozones of Roshar–we don’t have enough info to judge.
Also, how many Rosharan “pigs” are actually porcine, given the linguistic trope of naming entire classes of animal after one member?
@56 carl
my guess is that in this case, its most likely just pigs that are called pigs, there are not many animals that look or act like pigs, so there wouldn’t be a case of generalizing the name, the shin own cows, which other rosharins mistake for weird horses, so that can be ruled out. and it would seem that pigs are raised more for their hide then for food, at least that’s what i thought, obviously they would eat the meat, as it would be a waste otherwise, but i don’t think they are raised for that purpose. also, considering the high oxygen content in the atmosphere, they may be able to get hotter fires then we do, so the meat is cooked better than at a similar time period here on earth, so diseases from them would not easily be passed on. another note, is that for the transmition of diseases form animal to human, requires some living conditions i dont think they had, back in the day, it was not unheard of to have your animals in your house, and cities were disgusting, roshar houses and cities seem to be cleaner, and they have better medical practices, plus I thought it was a WOB that stormlight was the reason people didnt really get sick.
@57: Dalinar eats pork within his second flashback and I think there is a WoB about pig milk in terms of “dairy”, but I could be wrong about this one. So huh, I would say that yes, they do eat the pigs.
@56 Carl
Hmm my first assumption would be that pigs would not be able to survive on their own in the Rosharan wild given the highstorms, but we do see wild Ryshadium so (although they evolved to bond spren) that does at least show it is possible for un-natural fauna to survive on Roshar without human interference.
@57 smaugthemagnificent
I agree. Pigs do seem unique in appearance enough that I do not think they would be grouped the same way chicken is, which denotes all animals with feathers and wings. If we were to give a single word to all animals with four legs and cloven hooves, then if they have goats (I feel it was mentioned in the book at some point but I could be wrong), then you get a very dramatically different animal.
So my understanding of the stormlight preventing sickness is that through stormlight, Rosharans have a stronger immune system. Now I am not a scientist/biologist, so if my understanding of the common cold is in error, then I apologize in advance but the common cold is not one strain. There are roughly 4 or 5 families of viruses that cause the symptoms we attribute to the common cold, and of those families, there are roughly 200 strains of each, which each strain changing over time. This makes creating a vaccine incredibly difficult, which is why where we are today, there is no cure for the common cold. All medication is just to help us deal with the symptoms while our body fights it off. The body is then resistant to that specific strain, but there are still 499 other strains out there that can infect, including the 1 strain you are resistant to can change over time till you are not resistant to it. My assumption is viruses like the common cold didn’t have a chance to get a foothold to begin with, so they are largely unknown on Roshar. When the three worldhoppers showed up, they carried pathogens never seen before on Roshar, so the natives had never built up an immunity to the strains brought over. That said, the purelake plague, as per Sanderson is just a “plague of the sniffles”. It is nothing devastating to us on Earth, but have a person who never experienced this before feel some chills and aches, with a red runny nose and watery eyes, and that person will think they are dying. Now you could know all of this already. If you do, I apologize in advance. Just thought to elaborate. To further respond to your post, I do agree and would say rosharan cities would also be cleaner than normal due to highstorms. It was commented in the novels that cities were planned to be sloped in many circumstances so trash would literally be flushed out of the city.
So then all of this is to say, if according to Harris, the reason pigs were used was because economically they could feed themselves, so would produce a net win for the owners, then I wonder how that would come into play with the local fauna that they use to raise for their meat, and their heliodores to soulcast food. I feel a hazy recollection that Dalinar comments on pork as a delicacy, so maybe it ended up finding itself a niche market?
Kaladin mentions an area of Alethkar that is lush farmland, where everyone grows lavish and tallew. Additionally, some villages make a point of raising hogs for meat and leather; others raise gumfrems for their gemhearts, which are good for soulcasting meat. On top of that, there are plenty of wild hogs in one of the areas he passed through with the parshmen. He considered hunting them, but they would be the property of the local land lord so it would be poaching.
In other words, there are plenty of pigs around.
Just quibbling about the unique appearance = unique word thing, remember that all carnivorous mammals are called “mink”, from actual mink to lions (in pictures). Taxonomy has not been a major area of scholarship, it would seem, until just about Jasnah’s time, and mammals not a big area of study at least among the Alethi and their neighbors.
@60 Wetlandernw
So then the question becomes, when you have local fauna (gumfrems) that not only provide meat when you slaughter them, but also produce heliodors that can be used to soulcast even more meat, then where does the pro of a pig come into play? Is it variety? Novelty? If I read correctly what Carl explained regarding Harris’s theory is that a large reason for the prevalence of pigs is due to their ability to practically feed themselves saving on upkeep, then why would they be prevalent on Roshar, where there is a species that already doubles your return on every head? What do you think? I am interested in thinking about the interactions and implications :)
@61 Carl
Although a good point, I would like to respond that the only time we heard a lion referred to as a mink, is by Adolin regarding the stone mural, and he said “mink-like” regarding how it is furred. A pig hairless (typically unless we are referring to wild boars), has a squat snout, a curly cue tail and round eyes. A goat has coarse fur (which could be like the wild boar so I will give you that), is leaner, has a completely different shaped nose/face, has horns, and has rectangular eyes. True a hawk looks remarkably different than a swan, but at the end of the day they both have beaks, they both have wings, they both have feathers, and they both fly. I do not recall us seeing any ostriches nor penguins on Roshar. But I recognize this is purely opinion based on my part.
Scath @62 – The hogs give both meat and leather, and they’re the only source of leather we’ve been shown so far, iirc. Pig fat is also used for making soap. I don’t know if gumfrem is good to eat, or for anything else; they’re only mentioned as being raised for their gemhearts. They’re also only called “pasture animals” while there is specific mention of wild hogs. That proves nothing, of course; there may be parts of Roshar where the wild gumfrem roam freeee on the lone prairieeeee. I’m just saying that hogs are pretty ubiquitous in the parts of Roshar that we’ve seen, rather than being an odd niche.
@63 Wetlandernw
True true. I could not recall if there was another Rosharan analogue for producing soap (for instance instead of silk from insects, they get it from a form of sea weed) so those are excellent points for there to still be a value for pigs outside of their ability to forage. Makes me wonder if anything else could be harvested from gumfrems or even what they look like for that matter. WoB regarding the sea silk below
EHyde
I was wondering, on Roshar, what sort of plants and animals do they use for fabrics, because they don’t have a lot of woolly animals and the plants are different?
Brandon Sanderson
Most of them are plant-based. I think I’ve mentioned one of the plants. Theirs are plant-based.
EHyde
They have silk though, right?
Brandon Sanderson
Yes. It is seasilk, you actually grow it in the water. It’s pretty awesome. It comes from the coasts.
EHyde
So they don’t have anything like our silk, then?
Brandon Sanderson
If you looked at it, you would call that silk, but it is being produced in a very different way.
EHyde
But our silk comes from insect cocoons, and they have a lot of that sort of thing, but they don’t use it for fiber at all?
Brandon Sanderson
Insect cocoons on Roshar are either, they melt in water and are tied to the highstorm cycle, or they have stone in them. So they don’t work really well for textiles. There are certain rockbuds you can shred the inside of the shell and get a textile from them, there’s seasilk which you grow out in the ocean, and there are other plants of a similar nature.
In regards to my previous comment, I didn’t mean to imply they didn’t eat pork, but that the main purpose was the leather, and the meat was a side product they also used, otherwise its a waste, economically, given then hogs hide leather is expensive, it stands that the meat is also a delicacy, and we know also that soul cast food tastes barely better than dirt, plus, who turns down bacon?
@65 smaugthemagnificent
True true, which does make me wonder what else do they do to gumfrems. Random sidenote, i did pull up the two instances they are mentioned, and it says they are chull like, so at least now I have an image in my head to put to the name.
LOL, sorry if this will mean I am an aberration but I have never really been a fan of bacon. Pork belly as it is even turns me off. I don’t like fat and gristle. I am the type that trims my steaks till there is a tiny piece left, just to get rid of the fat because of the texture in my mouth when I chew. Add to that the propensity to have bacon in…well…. everything nowadays, has caused me to when breakfast comes up, I would much rather sausage than bacon lol.
@66 Scáth This has nothing to do with the reread, but I have to comment on your dislike for bacon or fat and gristle. I feel exactly the same! Thanks for sharing. At least now I know another person that dislikes certain food because of its texture. :-)
@67 bird
Wahoo! I am not alone!
RE: fat/grease/bacon
I couldn’t agree more about trimming off fat from food. Not just steak, but chops (pork and lamb), duck, chicken, etc. That said, crispy bacon is wonderful (undercooked, not so much).
@69 RogerPavelle exactly, fat is gross, and crispy bacon all the way.
Lots of people turn down bacon, in fact. Muslims and Jews, to name many millions.
I can’t tolerate crispy bacon. English-style bacon (cut thicker and cooked to done, not to burnt) can be delicious. Almost never eat it, though.
Alethkar seems to eat in an analogous way to premodern Earth: most people get one starchy food as their staple (grain or potatoes), while the elite get all the variety they can afford. And the Mexican-analogs get their cheap food (corn here, soulcast grain there) in tasty wrap form.
Also chiming in as somebody who HATES fat and gristle (I also don’t like even slightly rare meat – it tastes distinctly metallic to me in a way it doesn’t seem to taste to to others, and it makes me gag) and doesn’t love bacon. I do enjoy bacon strictly as a breakfast food but I’m not into the trend to put it into every single freaking thing. (That said I did have a bacon chocolate truffle once that was a very good balance of sweet and salty, which I love).
Funny thing is, I thought the pig reference got brought up strictly to explain a possible reason it was considered non-kosher in the real world, lol.
Loved all the WoBs…especially the one about the seasilk. One of those things that is likely not really that relevant to the story but just shows how much thought is given to the worldbuilding and what such a unique ecology really would look like…
All I can say is: I love bacon. And fat. So… satisfying.
@73 Fat is flavor.
“A calorie is a unit used to measure flavor. A cheesy, buttery potato has a large number of calories; a grapefruit has … 1.”