Greetings, fair rereaders, and welcome back to Kholinar! It’s sneaky-time for our intrepid crew, as they take on some unexpected disguises and attempt to make their way into the city without being recognized by the locals or attacked by the Voidbringers. Wish them luck, because it’s weird in this man’s town.
Reminder: We’ll potentially be discussing spoilers for the entire novel in each reread. There are very minor spoilers for Warbreaker under Cosmere Connections. Very minor. But if you haven’t read ALL of Oathbringer, best to wait to join us until you’re done.
Chapter Recap
WHO: Kaladin
WHERE: Kholinar environs, city. (Lyn: This route on the map is my best guess. I’m assuming they came in the southern gate since they’d have been approaching the city from the south to begin with, and they pass the market… Then, in a later chapter, it takes Veil several hours to get from the tailor’s to the palace, so the tailor’s can’t be too close.)
WHEN: 1174.1.10.2 (the day after Chapter 60)
Kaladin and company are outside of the city, preparing to begin their infiltration. Shallan crafts disguises for some of them from Lightweaving, and they make their way to the front gate, where they are denied entry by orders of someone Elhokar doesn’t recognize named “Highmarshal Azure.” A brief sortie by the Voidbringers allows them their chance to enter the city along with the rest of the refugees trapped outside, and they make their way deeper into the city, heading to a safe haven that they can use as a base of operations—namely, Adolin’s tailor.
Truth, Love, and Defiance
Title: Nightmare Made Manifest
“Haunting. A nightmare made manifest.”
AA: This was Adolin’s description of the experience with the Midnight Mother beneath the tower. Kaladin jokes about it also describing the illusion Shallan placed on him, which Adolin turns into another joke, which is pretty fun all taken together… but at the same time, it’s pretty clear that it applies to what they expect to find in Kholinar as well, based on that shadow around the palace.
Heralds
Shalash
AA: This chapter, though it’s from Kaladin’s perspective, is all about the Lightweaver making illusions, either to hide them from view or to disguise the recognizable members of the team. Hence, Shalash.
I wonder, though… Elhokar is also the focus of a lot of Kaladin’s thoughts and interaction in this chapter, and though we didn’t know it yet (for sure), he’s already beginning to bond a spren. A Cryptic. So perhaps Shalash is here for Elhokar, too. ::sniffle::
Icon
Banner and Spears, indicating Kaladin’s POV
Epigraph
We can record any secret we wish, and leave it here? How do we know that they’ll be discovered? Well, I don’t care. Record that then.
—From drawer 2-3, smokestone
L: Whoever this unknown Radiant was, I like their style.
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Oathbringer
AA: This is from a Skybreaker who sounds either rebellious or just salty. Given that the Skybreakers are the only Order that didn’t participate in the Recreance, is he saying he doesn’t care about the things they’re learning that might be leading that direction? Or that he doesn’t care about leaving Urithiru? Or that he doesn’t care whether it’s discovered? We don’t get any more recordings from this particular drawer, though there will be other Skybreaker records.
Thematic Thoughts
“Basic military theory,” Adolin said. “Shardbearers do a great job killing people—but what are they going to do against the population of an entire city? Murder everyone who disobeys? They’d get overwhelmed, Shards or not. Those flying Voidbringers will need to bring in the entire army to take the city.”
L: It’s nice to see this echoed again (and explained in more detail), after Dalinar brought it up last chapter. The theme that single men wielding great power aren’t enough by themselves is one that’s brought up time and again in this book. This is why it’s so important that Dalinar fulfill his objective to unify the disparate cultures and societies against Odium. The Alethi cannot defend the world alone, no matter how powerful they are. They’re the Shardblades, but they need the rest of the world to back them up.
AA: Good point, Lyn! It will sure be interesting to see how this plays out in the next two books. I expect it will help that the Thrill is currently… bottled up, so to speak.
Stories & Songs
There wasn’t a cloud in the sky.
But somehow, the palace was still in shadow.
“What could it be?” Adolin said, lowering his spyglass.
“One of them,” Shallan whispered. “The Unmade.”
Kaladin looked back at her. She’d sketched the palace, but it was twisted, with odd angles and distorted walls.
AA: Two things jumped out at me here. One, the shadow is visible to anyone, apparently. For some reason I’d half expected it to only be visible to the Radiants, but Adolin can certainly see it. Two, Shallan’s sketch of the palace sounds terrifyingly reminiscent of the drawings she’d done of Urithiru while Re-Shephir was in residence.
AP: It’s also worth noting that once again Shallan sees the effects of the Unmade in a way the others can’t. Is this an effect of being a Lightweaver?
AA: True. Others see the shadow, but only Shallan sees the distortion effect. I don’t recall Elhokar making any comments on it, though now I’ll have to watch for it. I’d thought it might be possible that the Lightweaver could see the effects of the Midnight Mother partly because of the connection to Illusion-crafting, but that’s clearly not the case. If Elhokar comments later, we’ll know it’s a Lightweaver thing; otherwise, it’s still a debate between Lightweavers in general and Shallan in particular. There’s a WoB that Shallan’s family was influenced by an Unmade; I wonder if that created a sensitivity or something.
Those strata, he thought, remind me of the tunnels in Urithiru. Could there be some connection?
L: There had better be, with all these little hints scattered about.
AA: I know, right? It was discussed in the comments last week, but all we know is that “they aren’t powered by Urithiru.” Which… did anyone really expect that, at this point? I don’t know. But at the very least, I’m confident that some of the same methods were used for building both, and I certainly hope there’s more than that.
AP: I don’t think they are powered by Urithiru, but in the same way as Urithiru. Same mechanism, but not directly connected to the city.
AA: That’s what I’m hoping! I really want to find out that there’s more to the windblades than just the means by which they were formed.
Relationships & Romances
He’d used that fictional man, relied upon him, to equip his team and to get soldiers transferred to his squad. Without it, he’d never have met Tarah.
AA: There’s Tarah again… I do hope he finds her someday and she’s still unattached. Not too likely, but you never know. It could happen.
L: I need to find out more about her before I determine whether she’s worthy of our favorite Bridgeman…
AP: Count me in on those who are interested in the mysterious Tarah!
Bruised & Broken
“I wasn’t speaking of you, Captain,” the king said quietly. “I was referring to my own limitations. When I fail this city, I want to make sure you are there to protect it.”
AA: Elhokar just grabbed my heart, right there. “When I fail this city…” He’s determined to protect the city, even though he doesn’t honestly believe he’s capable of it. Up until this point, I didn’t think much of him. Even the “flying off to save the city” seemed almost childish, and kind of made me want to tell him to stay home and let the soldiers take care of it. But now… is he changing, or am I?
L: This is really serious and moving but I have to make this joke first.
::ahem:: Now that that’s out of the way. Later in this article I’ll call out the first moment when I started turning around on Elhokar. This is the second. He’s trying to be a better person, but he recognizes his own failings and is setting up contingency plans to protect the people he loves in case he screws up. This is such a likable thing, and a clear step towards redemption for the apathetic, pathetic f***-up he’s been up until this point.
AP: This is a sign that he’s trying to do better, but sometimes it’s too little too late. I like the self awareness here, but he’s spent his entire life being weak and ineffectual.
“A king must do whatever he can for the good of his people, and my judgment has proven… deficient. Anything I have ‘accomplished’ in life has been handed to me by my father or my uncle. You are here, Captain, to succeed when I fail. Remember that. Open the Oathgate, see that my wife and child are ushered through it to safety, and return with an army to reinforce this city.”
AA: From a purely pragmatic angle, it might have been better for him to stay in Urithiru and let Kaladin and Adolin take care of this mission. But he’s right, you know? All he has is a position inherited from his father and protected by his uncle. Reasonable or not, as a man he needs to do this job himself. At the same time, he believes it’s too important to be risked on his limited ability, so he’s making sure that it gets done with or without him. I think it was this moment, right here, that set me up to be absolutely devastated by the outcome of the expedition. ::sniff::
L: Anyone who’s willing to sacrifice themselves to protect those they love gets points in my book, and to be honest the fact that he’s so self-deprecating adds to it. Who hasn’t felt that they’re not good enough… especially when all the people around you are insanely talented?
AP: Again, I’m glad to see that he’s finally getting some honest self-assessment. This also is a good hint toward him bonding a cryptic, the Lightweavers level up with Truths. And admitting to being a bad king with poor judgement is a pretty big truth.
AA: There’s a WoB saying that would have been his first Truth (second Ideal)—“…to admit the thing that he knows, which is that he’s a bad king.”
Those rumors had become a challenge, creating for everyone the notion of a man who was like Kaladin, but at the same time greater than he could ever be. He’d used that fictional man, relied upon him, to equip his team and to get soldiers transferred to his squad… It was useful to have a reputation, so long as it didn’t crush you.
L: This is some pretty deep stuff here. I think anyone who’s ever been in a position of leadership has experienced this to one extent or another.
Squires & Sidekicks
Storms, the command structure in this expedition was going to be a nightmare.
L: This must be so frustrating for a seasoned soldier like Kaladin.
AP: This also feeds back into how weak of a king Elhokar is. He should be the leader of the expedition, and should have a command structure in place.
AA: We talked about this last week, so I’ll quote that with a little editing: The king, the highest-ranking person here. (Plus he’s a Shardbearer.) The highprince-in-training, leader of the Kholin armies. (Plus he’s a Shardbearer.) The Windrunner, the only one who can fly them around, and experienced in small-sortie squads. (Plus he has a living Shardblade.) The Lightweaver, who doesn’t grok command structures or team missions. (And also has a living Shardblade.) Add to that a couple of Windrunner squires, who will naturally want to follow Kaladin but are also habitually Adolin’s bodyguards, but also are (as Bridge Four) bodyguards to the royal house and the king. Then add in a couple of deserters-become-servants-and-armsmen who are loyal only to Shallan, and mostly just because she pays them. Last but not least, a trained but low-level spy who works for Shallan mostly because she wants into the Ghostbloods.
What a crew. Yeah, someone really needed to lay out a command structure and make everyone agree to follow it before they ever got on the Oathgate platform in Urithiru.
Shallan’s soldiers pulled tight around her, hands carefully on their pockets. They seemed familiar with the underbelly of city life. Fortunately, she’d accepted Kaladin’s pointed suggestion and hadn’t brought Gaz.
AA: Heh. “Kaladin’s pointed suggestion”—like, with a knife?
Places & Peoples
It was a man in all white, with strips of cloth that streamed and fluttered as he moved. Head down, he stood on a street corner, leaping back and forth from one position to another.
[…]
Soon, a strange procession came marching down the center of the street. These men and women were also dressed like performers–their clothes augmented with brightly colored strips of red, blue, or green fabric. They walked past, calling out nonsense phrases.
[…]
“Spren,” Shallan whispered. “They’re imitating spren.”
AP: This whole part was so ominous! We learn more about it later, but the crowd’s initial reaction to this group was eerie.
AA: And it just gets more ominous. This whole thing is seriously creepy.
Tight Butts and Coconuts
“Your Majesty, you’re going to be a woman.”
“Fine,” Elhokar said.
Kaladin started. He’d have expected an objection. Judging by the way that Shallan seemed to stifle a quip, she’d been expecting one too.
“You see,” she said instead, “I don’t think you can keep from carrying yourself like a king, so I figure that if you look like a highborn lighteyed woman, it’s less likely that you’ll be memorable to the guards who—”
“I said it was fine, Lightweaver,” Elhokar said. “We mustn’t waste time. My city and nation are in peril.”
AA: This was totally unintentional humor, at least on the characters’ parts, but I wanted to tie it to last week’s conversation about Shallan’s humor and the ways it so often fails to be funny. It seems to me that she’s got her little spiel all thought out, and she can’t resist saying it. All of it. Even though no one needs or wants to hear it. In this case it wasn’t supposed to be a joke, but nonetheless, she had to explain. Last week, it was supposed to be funny, but she got too elaborate, and then the punchline was just kind of rude instead of funny.
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The Ruin of Kings
It seems like she feels a need to explain, and it comes across as needing to show how clever she is, whether that’s what she intended or not. Sometimes I think she is showing off her cleverness, and sometimes… well, I guess sometimes I think she just explains out of habit. (Face it, her brothers weren’t entirely the brightest spheres in the basket. She probably got used to explaining everything from humor to scheming!) Anyway, that visual of “See how smart I am!” is one of the reasons I’ve heard from readers who dislike her.
L: On another note, I just wanted to point out that I love that Elhokar doesn’t even question this. This was the moment when I started changing my mind about him, from a sort of disgruntled annoyance to genuine liking. If this were… almost any other book, we’d expect him to sputter and go “B-b-but I can’t dress like a WOMAN!” And it would all be played off as a big joke, har har har, isn’t it hilarious to expect a MAN to wear WOMEN’s clothes! (Sorry, I have a lot of non-binary friends and this absolutely drives me mad.) The fact that Elhokar doesn’t subscribe to the (frankly) toxic masculinity inherent in this tropey situation makes me like him a great deal.
AA: I thoroughly enjoyed the way Sanderson set us up to fully expect Elhokar to splutter about it—and then yanked the rug out from under us—and Shallan. I mean, even Kaladin expected a protest, and Elhokar was just, “I brought you along to be the expert on disguises, so do your job.” I agree that this was a big step for his character development: We see him expressly relying on his team members for their particular expertise, which we really haven’t seen before. Along with the situational humor, Shallan’s penchant for over-explaining gives Kaladin the opportunity to let us know just how well the illusion works with Elhokar’s normal bearing. So there’s that, because it was pretty funny too.
AP: Totally agree that she needs to show how smart she is. But she’s with other smart people now, and they don’t need the long explanation. Elhokar has enough insight to delegate. It’s one of the things he is truly good at.
“Haunting. A nightmare made manifest.”
“Kind of like my face?” Kaladin asked.
Adolin glanced at him, then grinned. “Fortunately, Shallan covered it up for you with that illusion.”
Kaladin found himself smiling. The way Adolin said things like that made it clear he was joking—and not only at your expense. Adolin made you want to laugh with him.
AA: This, on the other hand, is genuinely—and intentionally—funny. Anyone else want to chime in on how Adolin makes you want to laugh with him, while Shallan just makes you roll your eyes? Both of them are poking fun at someone “below their station” but it’s got a very different effect.
L: I honestly think it’s got the most to do with tone. Adolin smiles at the person in question as he pokes fun, to make it clear that he’s joking, and—this may just be me—when I “hear” lines like this in my head, the tone is warmer, kinder, with maybe a little sardonic edge to it. Shallan always comes across as quick and snappish, sarcastic. It’s entirely possible to say the same exact thing but have it come across in two completely different ways, based on nothing more than body language and tone. It seems like Adolin is bringing himself down to the same level rather than punching down, if that makes sense.
AP: It’s absolutely the tone. Sanderson gives a good description here. Adolin is smiling, he knows his audience, and Kaladin responds because he has enough of a rapport with Adolin that it feels like two friends riffing with each other. The way a joke is delivered matters as much as the actual words.
AA: As someone who uses a lot of sarcasm, that’s kind of a bummer. Part of the point of certain kinds of humor is to not make it obvious that you’re joking. Then again, the best part of humor is knowing when and how to use it, and Shallan’s training as a comedienne isn’t exactly stellar. Also, Shallan made her joke to Adolin about Kaladin (in Kaladin’s hearing), while Adolin made his, with the exact same meaning, to/with Kaladin, and no one else. (Frankly, the girl’s social skills are pretty horrible when you think about it. She’s got the training in etiquette, but not in people.)
“I’ve got just the place. Run by people I trust, and close enough to the palace to do some scouting, but far enough not to get caught in… whatever is going on there. Hopefully.”
L: I just have to take a moment to point out that he’s talking about his tailor and this tickles my funny-bone so hard.
AP: As a fellow cosplayer, let me assure you, your tailor knows all. There are no secrets from the person who is paid to make you look good! Fittings get very…um…intimate at times!
“Almighty above,” Kaladin said, poking at the scars and bulges on his face, some with open sores. Fake teeth jutted from his mouth, and one eye was higher in his head than the other. His hair grew out in patches, and his nose was tiny. “What did you do to me, woman?”
L: Made him into Quasimodo, clearly. Or maybe Sloth from the Goonies…
AA: For someone who’s supposed to be disguising the team so they don’t stand out, this seems like a fail.
“I’ve recently learned,” Shallan said, “that a good disguise can be memorable, so long as it makes you memorable for the wrong reason. You, Captain, have a way of sticking in people’s heads, and I worried you would do so no matter what face you wore. So I enveloped it with something even more memorable.”
AA: Hmmm. Well, maybe…
“We’d need to stay with someone I’d trust with my life, or more.” He looked at Kaladin, then gestured towards the woman. “So I brought us to my tailor.”
L: Storms bless you, Adolin. Never change.
AA: Indeed. This is very fitting. :P
Weighty Words
They’d decided to spend the night outside the city, hidden by one of Shallan’s illusions. Impressively, her Lightweaving had lasted all night on very little Stormlight.
AA: This is another of those little “oh, yeah!” moments, as it clearly refers to the experiment Shallan was doing back in Chapter 51. Back then, she’d placed an Illusion on a small pouch, tied the Illusion to a sphere, and then let it run on that sphere’s Stormlight, which proved to be much more efficient than holding the Illusion herself. She even left it in her room running on its own… because she’s trying to find a way to get out of Dalinar’s meetings where her presence is required to maintain the map illusions. Apparently she’s been working on that technique, and was able to create a much larger Illusion here. By tying it to a charged sphere and letting it run on its own, she didn’t even have to stay awake to maintain it. Slick!
L: Very much so. Sanderson is also reinforcing something that’s going to become much more prevalent later—Shallan’s powers use up barely any Stormlight at all. Now, whether this is an inherent Lightweaver thing, or because she’s just been subconsciously utilizing it for so long that she’s gotten very efficient at it, is yet to be seen…
AP: I’m glad you mentioned the prior experiment, because for the life of me I couldn’t figure out how she kept it going while asleep!
Shallan stepped over and breathed out, and Stormlight wreathed him. He felt he should be able to take it in, use it—but it resisted him. It was a strange sensation, as if he’d found a glowing coal that gave off no heat.
L: This is really interesting. It means that Kaladin (or any other Radiant) wouldn’t be able to recycle the Light left behind in a Lightweaver’s illusions—or any other Radiant power (though the others would be less likely to “stick around,” as it were).
AP: Agreed, and I want more information here. Is it only illusions? Or does other stormlight end up “claimed” by whatever use it is put to. How much can one Radiant interfere with another’s powers?
Steady, he told himself. The point is to get in without being seen. You would ruin that by flying to the defense of the city?
But he was supposed to protect.
L: And so the questioning begins. Kaladin’s journey towards his next ideal in this book is so difficult. He has so many conflicting responsibilities that it’s hard to make out what the right choice in any given situation is.
AP: Absolutely. Knowing when not to fight is just as important. As Kenny Rogers said, you’ve got to know when to hold ’em, know when to fold ’em, know when to walk away, and know when to run.
AA: Ironic, isn’t it, though? The only reason they got into the city was that a group of Voidbringers attacked the wall, pulling the guards away to defense and leaving the gates open for the crowd of refugees to pour in. Uh… thanks??
Cosmere Connections
“Who is your superior?” Elhokar cut in.
“I serve Highmarshal Azure, of the Wall Guard.”
L: Go on, Alice, I know you want this one.
AA: Heh. I love it… but the reveal comes so much later. At this point, all we know is a name—but it’s a name that doesn’t “belong” on Roshar. This should be getting everyone’s attention as a start. In retrospect, of course—or for anyone who saw the WoB telling people to look for Vivenna in Oathbringer—“Azure” has all the subtlety of a two-by-four to the head. Without either of those factors, though, this Highmarshal whose name and colors no one recognizes creates a lot of suspicion. In the beta (my only reference for first-read reactions), speculation about Azure in this chapter was either an Unmade or an opportunist usurping authority. Either way, it was a worrying development.
A Scrupulous Study of Spren
“Syl,” he growled, “could I summon you not as a sword, but as a flat, shiny piece of metal?”
“A mirror?” she asked, flying along beside him. “Hmmm…”
“Not sure if it’s possible?”
“Not sure if it’s dignified.”
“Dignified? Since when have you cared about dignity?”
“I’m not to be toyed with. I’m a majestic weapon to be used only in majestic ways.”
L: Compare to Wyndle, who became… a fork.
A burst of exhaustionspren appeared over her, like jets of dust rising in the air. Only these were bright red instead of the normal brown, and seemed distorted.
“Oh, this is wrong, wrong, wrong,” Syl said from Kaladin’s shoulder. “Oh… oh, that spren is from him, Kaladin.”
L: Is it just a regular exhaustionspren that’s been distorted, or is it a different variety altogether just masquerading as an exhaustionspren?
AP: I think this is the first indication that we get of our bonus Unmade in the city, Sja-anat. She corrupts spren.
AA: I’m with Aubree on this one. This is a Clue.
Appealing Artwork
Shallan wrapped Adolin in Light. He resolved into a sturdy, handsome man in his sixties, with dark brown skin, white hair, and a lean figure. […] He looked like the kind of old rogue you’d find in a pub, with handy tales about the brilliant things he’d done in his youth. The kind of man that made women think they preferred older men, when in reality they just preferred him.
AA: I just had to. Shallan’s artwork…
Quality Quotations
Elhokar didn’t show what he thought of Kaladin’s face; the king kept his eyes forward. He never did think much about other people, so that was normal.
“They call it the Windrunner, you know,” the king said softly.
AA: This comes just before the conversation in Bruised & Broken, and it made me want to smack Kaladin. He just assumes he knows what’s going on in people’s heads so much. And he’s wrong here; no matter what his face shows, Elhokar was obviously thinking about Kaladin.
“Be extraordinary, Captain. Nothing else will suffice.”
***
“He liked to think he knew a great deal about warfare, but the truth was, he didn’t have the training of a man like Adolin. He’d participated in wars, but he’d never run any.”
Whew. This is getting intense! Next week, we’re just doing one chapter again, because despite very little action, there’s a cartload of information. So Chapter 62, where Our Heroes will be trying to figure out what in Damnation is going on with this city.
Alice is really enjoying this whole expedition. Such excitements!
Lyndsey is rooting for Kaladin and Adolin (you can take that however you wish). If you’re an aspiring author, a cosplayer, or just like geeky content, follow her work on Facebook or her website.
Aubree knows better than to count her money when she’s sittin’ at the table. There’ll be time enough for countin’ when the dealin’s done.
Oh hello, Azure.
Why is South pointing up? Oh no, my brain!
“AA: Indeed. This is very fitting. :P” I see what you did there. Fitting.
Time for Kholinar to join Urithiru and Yeddaw as a City of Shenanigans! Whoo!
More shenanigans than it already had, I mean. And ones observed by POV characters.
I thought nothing of the name Azure, even after meeting the person, until she started talking about “Colors” and…Nightblood, IIRC…and someone who was clearly Vasher. Rosharans have a wide variety of names.
I might not like to be the subject of Shallan’s snarking, but I nearly always enjoy reading it.
About that notion of murdering a whole city…
@3 perfect choice of gif there.
So first just wanted to thank Lyn again for going the extra mile with the maps. It is very appreciated!
I agree the mention of how shardbearers can’t hold ground really enforces the urgency of Dalinar uniting the world to stand against Odium
Regarding Shallan noticing the Unmade, at this point there are so many possibilities! It could be like was said that the Unmade has been around her family so much, but then again Renarin sensed the Night Mother as well. Could it be because they share the surge illumination? Could it be because the Night Mother almost mimics the surge with her midnight essences? Or could be tangential, as in Shallan senses the Unmade because of her nature as a Lightweaver (the radiant), and Renarin senses the Unmade because of his corrupted spren? Can’t wait to learn more about Renarin!
This chapter definitely shows the the genuine start of growth on Elhokar’s part. I feel like this mission is so important to him because he wants to learn to be a better person and a better king. He commented earlier how he always makes the wrong decisions when he trusts himself, and then when he decides to trust someone else to follow their decisions, it turns out he trusted the wrong person. I feel like for him, he feels he finally found the right person to trust and emulate, Kaladin. So he is going to go on a mission where he can make decisions, but have Kaladin correct any mistakes, and give him the chance to learn. Theory and reading about how to lead is one thing, but actually doing it is how you get better. He doesn’t want to be the mess up anymore. He truly wants to do and be better.
I find it interesting Kaladin’s comments on cultivating a reputation of something greater than yourself, or different than yourself, in order to do good, help others, and accomplish goals. I feel this runs along side Jasnah. She explained the same thing to Shallan, about creating an image of yourself, even if deep down you feel that image is a lie, if it helps you help others/accomplish goals. Kaladin did it to save men from other squads, Shallan did it to save the caravan from brigands, Jasnah did it to research and try to prevent the desolation. Not to digress this reading from the subject matter, but that could be a point in EvilMonkey’s ship for Kaladin and Jasnah. They both present an image/reputation to help others. I personally still don’t see it, but I can see how this could be used as an example in its favor. I wish EvilMonkey luck with his ship!
I love that Elhokar took them to his tailor, It is so hard to know whom to trust, especially now with the doom and gloom surrounding the palace. As Alice say’s “very fitting” LOL I love that pun !! Thank you Lyn for the map, it is truly great to see the path they might have walked.
“AA: True. Others see the shadow, but only Shallan sees the distortion effect.”
I got the impression that both here and back at Urithiru, Shallan can’t “see” the Unmade, that they only appear in her drawings. Like in WoK, she wasn’t “seeing” the spren, but she was drawing them.
@5 – I think there’s too much of an age gap between Kaladin and Jasnah, though I do like the pairing. At least, I think that’s how Jasnah would view it. Not so much the age, but the experience and maturity that entails. Personally, I think Jasnah is either asexual or possibly gay. Or, and I hope this isn’t the case, she could be a survivor of sexual assault and therefore has issues with romance (some theorize that there are subtle hints about this being the dark thing from her past).
I’ve always thought the way Shallan can see a distortion of reality when the Unmade are around… I think she’s seeing part of the cognitive realm. I’m probably not right and am just guessing, but when I read the book, I get the sense that the Unmade’s presence also kind of makes the “veil” thinner between the cognitive and physical realms. It may be that Lightweavers are more sensitive and able to actually see that weird/freaky juxtaposition of the cognitive and physical realms because Lightweavers kind of bend reality themselves? There are other effects of Unmade in the physical realm that normal people perceive, but who knows what’s going on in the cognitive.
As for those people dressing like spren… I could only think of Mistweavers. And it may be that they were just imitating spren with those strips of colored cloth and the whole thing is hilariously coincidental. But this is Sanderson. *shakes fist at the sky*
I’m in the middle of rereading Bands of Mourning, and reading the line about Kaladin not being able to use Shallan’s Stormlight immediately made me think “Identity!”
@10 – Yep, that’s exactly what it is. It is the same Cosmere, after all.
Alice: nice pun (about it “fitting” that Adolin would trust his tailor with his life). That sounds like something Shallan would say.
Do we have an in text reference or WoB as to how big (square miles) and the population (pre-Everstorm) of Kholinar?
Thanks for reading my musings.
AndrewHB
aka the musespren
@7 goldeyeliner
I agree
@8 Austin
Personally I am in the camp that I do not see the point of Jasnah and Kaladin in a relationship, and I think she just chooses to be single, unrelated to any sexual preference, but I do understand where many are coming from regarding each of those points both for or against(age gap, sexual orientation, sexual assault). Still a whole lot we do not know about Jasnah to really lock any of those down, so it could be one of them, all of them, or none of them lol. 20 years is a long time to wait for answers, but I think it’ll be worth it! lol. Can’t wait!
@9 Mith
Interesting theory/points. It may also have to do with the spiritual realm which is all places and all times. She does draw scenes from Yalb getting out of the water after the ship wreck, and Ash destroying art of herself as a form of remote viewing. So maybe lightweavers bring all three realms together, some what like bondsmiths do, but to a different effect? I’m just throwing out ideas to see what sticks.
On Adolin’s humor versus Shallan’s, it’s worth noting there is a gender issue at play in addition to the other factors. Our society is largely trained to see insults between men as a bonding ritual and insults from women as simply mean. Tone, timing, and body language do matter and Shallan does botch them, but men still get to land that kind of joke on a much wider runway.
@10 Same! I thought of how// Ferecumists can’t use others’ metal-minds.// The investiture (stormlight in this case) has been claimed and can’t be used by others.// Or how you can’t use steel/iron to push/pull invested metal.// I think we would see a similar resistance if another radiant tried to suck in the light that Kaladin left behind sticking a person or object to a wall.
@7 and 9, I think that explains it really well. Shallan can only detect the weirdness when drawing. Renarin seemed to detect it another way – perhaps due to his latent/passive future sight. I wonder what other orders might use to detect it. I feel like Jasnah could have (should have?) detected something when soulcasting as that would also bring her into greater contact with the cognitive realm. But perhaps it’s less to do with surges that use the cognitive and the other “effects” that certain orders bring. I recall that in Words of Radiance (the in world book) it said that there was speculation that Lightweavers were unusually skilled in various arts and I feel like that left an impression – maybe there were other hints – that certain combinations of surges had additional interesting combinations.
Let me ramble for a moment… just as how whenever Dalinar has combined his power with other orders something unique has sprung up, and how Kriss speculates in the Ars Arcanum that // all Twinborns have an additional change brought on them besides the two powers they have//, all orders of radiant have an additional change/power from the combination of their surges. For lightweavers it seems to be an almost supernatural art ability. For windrunners, I wonder if some of Kaladin’s natural leadership comes from this. His unusual skill in fighting would be another candidate but I feel like he displayed that too early in life (though Syl does say she even remembers being aware of him back then) though, the different times it seems that the “wind dances” or moves with him in fighting seems to imply something. What do you all think? Any merit to this chain of thought? Any speculation on what other special abilities come from the combination of surges?
Note: these would have to be an supernatural extension of an ability or separate from other shared characteristic. It seems that all or most Elsecallers are scholarly, Lightweavers have artistic tendencies, Stonewards (from what we’ve been hinted) are naturally stalwart, loyal, etc. So the lightweaver example goes beyond they like or are good at art to how they are described as having spectacular art skills/memory skills. E.g. Shallan’s literal photographic memory.
edit: whited out potential spoilers for those that haven’t read Mistborn
Noticed the use of the word rapport. I had to write a whole paper on how rapport was better at getting information than torture
@14 Fair point, but only toward other men. I think they have a very small runway when trying to do that sort of joke toward a woman, and also that they tend to be overtly sensitive when a woman does that sort of joke toward them as many men naturally seek the affirmation of women, so they can focus on the critical part of the joke. Do you feel like women can rib other women more easily? I wonder if it is always harder to do friendly ribbing cross-gender, or is good natured ribbing really just a man-to-man thing? I personally think it has to do a lot with the degree of both comfort/trust and friendship between the people.
@15 whitespine
Going on that premise, then I agree Jasnah may be able to also detect it. I think the reason she did not at the time, was she had not arrived at Urithiru yet. She literally shows up right after they banished the Midnight Mother.
As to resonances I know windrunner’s were confirmed to be their number of squires. For lightweavers, I think it was confirmed to be their mnemonic memory ability (Shallan’s blink image capture). Kaladin’s fighting skill was confirmed to not be the result of the resonance. People do speculate the combination of transportation and transformation results in Jasnah’s ranged soulcasting. Not sure where I stand on that, but I see why people think that. Some have also used that example to posit that a willshaper will be able to use cohesion at ranged since they also have transportation.
@17 Personal relationships and comfort do play into it, but I’ve frequently seen men engage in that behavior with near-strangers. If called out, they can often get a pass with “Relax, dude. I’m just giving you a hard time.” I think many men would *expect* the same excuse to work with a woman.
What I think it comes down to is insults are a way of establishing dominance. We’re socialized to expect and accept displays of dominance from men but not from women.
How should Shallan have learned social skills? She spent her childhood locked up at home with her crazy family.
I thought Elhokar had no problem with the disguise because it is a “lie” that fits his order. In this book Shallans tries to escape from her problems by becoming someone else. Elhokar also always sees himself as inadequate and wants to be someone else who is more competent.
@18 – Good idea about Elsecallers’ resonance! It would have been helpful if Shallan had bothered to practice soulcasting, but plot purposes I suppose…actually, it’s kinda funny how it seems most orders ignore at first one of their surges. Shallan ignores soulcasting, Renarin doesn’t do lightweaving (though that may be because of the corrupted spren), Jasnah still struggled at transportation, even though she had her powers for over 5 years (escaping her death was the first time she transported herself physically), Dalinar ignores tension, and the Skybreakers don’t use division until they reach the 3rd Ideal. We didn’t see Malata (Dustbringer) use abrasion, but that’s not a given.
The only exceptions seemed to be Windrunners, whose surges of adhesion and gravitation seem to be intermingled together (they have “Lashings,” even though they come from two different surges). Lift has used both surges, though she uses abrasion far more often than regrowth. But she’s something of an exception for a Radiant, so it remains to be seen if other Edgedancers will be like her.
On Shallan’s Stormlight efficiency
Let’s not forget that Shallan is the furthest in progression from an Oath/Truth standpoint than any character besides Nale and maybe Jasnah. She has practice in her actions and that does count for something but as someone on her 4th, she’s nearly a Prius in comparison to Kaladin’s big block 305 V-6 engine. It could also be that Shallan’s usage is mostly passive while Kaladin’s is more active or kinetic.
On sensing Unmade
I believe as Radiants progress they are more able to utilize the Cognitive and Spiritual aspects of their respective surges. When Shallan draws people, part of the reason she’s so good and effective is that she can somehow access that spiritual blueprint and commit it to a visual medium. Renarin does something similar a few months back with Adolin, healing his wrist but showing him the Ideal Adolin first. I do not think this is a function of Glys’ corruption but rather a manifestation of Renarin’s particular flavor of Lightweiving. So both Shallan and Ren can feel the presence of the unmade due to Spiritual Lightwieving, Shallan is just able to put it on paper.
On Identity
Stormlight obviously starts off unkeyed. When a Radiant uses it to perform external effects it seems that Identity holds that effect together. One needs to give the Stormlight an Identity, imprint that effect so that the unkeyed Stormlight knows what it’s supposed to be doing. And we’ve seen instances where Kal and Shallan have no problem recovering their own Stormlight.
On Jokes
Considering Shallan’s upbringing which rewarded blunt and unsubtle commmentary, it’s unsurprising that in more rarified company those jokes fall flat. She’ll get better.
This was an interesting chapter. Having spent the last days completing a formation on leadership and coaching, I couldn’t help but trying to shoe-horn our SA characters within all of the presented boxes. One of them had to do with leadership, what it means to be a leader and what is the difference in between a leader and a “manager”.
It felt appropriate to this week’s discussions as both Kaladin and Elhokar are reflecting on the concept of leadership. What is a leader? Well, a leader has to be an inspiring figure, has to have a vision and is focused on higher level objectives whereas a “manager” is focused on getting the work done and setting done goals/targets.
Kaladin is a natural leader: he falls within this role effortlessly. Elhokar, on the other hand, isn’t. Neither are Adolin and Dalinar but the later two are, at least, decent “managers”. Elhokar just never were in a place where he could grow into a “leader” as the first steps towards growth imply “being directed”, then “being coached” and then “having the task being delegated to you”. Elhokar was told he had to be King merely because his father was King, but there never were anyone to walk him into the steps to help him grow into a leader. He’s not a natural one, but everyone can learn. Dalinar either isn’t a natural leader, but he is learning. A good comparison would be how Adolin was put into each one of the boxes, has gone through being closely directed, to be being coaches and has now been entrusted with the entire princedom. He is ready. He can accomplish the work. He has developed the right skill set though he too is not a natural leader.
Thus, it seems to be, Elhokar’s problems with kingship come from Gavilar, Dalinar and Navani all thinking he would naturally grow to have the required skill sets to be a good king. Coming from a highly charismatic man, it must have been difficult to perceive how one’s son may just not have inherited this natural ease towards leadership, but it is false to assume Elhokar could have never learn. He could have. He was just told to do the job without having been trained before hand, thus he rambled, he tried to “delegate it” to “better knowing people” which ended either in him trusting the wrong peron or allowing his uncle to steal his throne.
Poor kid. I feel sorry for him now. No one thought he could do it, even himself, no one thought to just, well, help him become a stronger leader.
Lack of self-confidence definitely is a running theme within SA. With Shallan, Renarin, Elhokar and also Adolin though him seems to have issues mostly with how he perceives himself (worthless) more than his set of competences, still it remains a connected issue.
On the side note, I appreciated how Kaladin took the time to reflect on his own lack of knowledge when it comes to warfare. Back in WoR, I felt he came across as arrogant more often then not, he spoke of how “he” never needed training and so on, hence it was refreshing when Kaladin is able to take a step back, realizing Adolin actually knows more than he does about warfare. Kaladin may be the natural leader, but he definitely lacks battlefield experience as one. This being said, seeing how OB ends for him, I doubt we are ever going to see Kaladin lead battles within the near future.
On the matter of Adolin and his taylor, yeah, it was hilarious. I can’t wait to get to the next chapters: there is so much symbolism linked within Adolin’s focus on clothing, I think this will be really interesting to dig into.
@21 Austin
Lol, there was a theory going around that ultimately got confirmed that Brandon did that order on purpose so people would not be so overwhelmed with so many new powers. So each order does tend to start off on one surge, and perhaps even uses that surge better than the other order, before they then learn the next surge. So for instance Lift learns abrasion first, and is better at it than Malata who uses division first, while Renarin uses regrowth first, and uses it better than Lift does. I know the order of use is intentional and confirmed, but not sure about the better using part being explicitly confirmed, so don’t quote me on that part.
@22 EvilMonkey
Yeah Brandon has confirmed Jasnah is currently further along than Shallan, though he still wanted to check for sure. In my opinion I think some surges just take more stormlight than others. Transformation seems to take a lot of stormlight compared to gravitation. My theory is there is something inherent to illumination that it is “quiet” and does not require as much stormlight so it can be used more practically. Would suck if you had a disguise up, and the stormlight suddenly ran out.
Interesting theory. I look forward to seeing how it will turn out and if it ultimately has merit. Good luck!
I think once a radiant draws in stormlight, it becomes keyed to that radiant. Otherwise Kaladin and Szeth could have yanked stormlight out of each other back and forth when they first fight in the palace and fall out the hole in the wall. Kaladin does draw stormlight away from szeth, but it was from the gemstones in his pouch, not from Szeth himself.
@21: I think it’s possible that the orders that share a surge can use the surge in slightly different ways, perhaps as it combines with their other surge. Lightweaving uses the surge of Illuminiation, but as it creates illusions, could it not also be partially of the surge of Transformation? I think Truthwatchers might use the surge of Illumination to see through illusions, kind of a “Light in the Darkness”, Reveal the Truth kind of way. Renarin’s visions could be a corruption of this power.
And yes, the way Windrunners and Skybreakers use the Surge of Gravitation is similar enough that Szeth has no trouble making the transition, but he’s been trained in all 10 Surges.
Good recap. And excellent use of gifs, bad puns, and old song lyrics to teach us about the use of humor in culture. I rank you all somewhere above Shallan, but probably not higher than Adolin for this week.
So there’s tons of stuff in there, but what stands out to me the most is Elhokar. His sense of self importance is gone. He has determination to help his family/people but little confidence in his own ability. Contrast that with the annoying kid king who went hunting on the shattered plains in WoK… he’s already changed a lot. (Which he totally needed to.)
As for the mention of Azure, it was almost like getting hit with something the first time. A color name here is definitely gonna be a world hopper. Can’t wait till she shows up in person as an awakener and not a man.
And then the tailor. The person trusted more than life is not doctor, former nurse, politically powerful, or noteworthy in most of the ways we would think of it. Just the power to make you look horrible. But as someone who does that kind of work-there really are no secrets.
@26: Adolin trusting his tailor above all makes perfect sense… The clothing, they were how he was expressing himself, trying out who he wanted to be, who he thought he wanted to be. It was a means of expression, not just mere clothes, hence they were vital to him as were the man designing them.
As I said, there is a lot of symbolic attached to Adolin and his clothes. It’s all one big metaphor.
Could Szeth train the other Radiants in the use of their powers?
@Zodda
#14: in principle everyone touches the Spiritual Realm. I agree with you, it seems likely that Shallan is drawing on Fortune (Brandon’s term for perceiving across time, as used in Oathbringer by Odium) to make those predictions.
#19: women display dominance exactly as much as men. Just differently (to some extent, which varies–people are complex and diverse). I recommend the works of Dr. Deborah Tannen for some very accessible writing on the subject.
@28 Now that is an interesting thought. Maybe not train so much as suggest things to try that they haven’t thought of yet. And only for the 7 (I think) blades he would have had to train with. Some Radiants might be more willing to work with him than others given their personal feeling towards him
@25: I thought the Stormfather confirmed exactly that. During one of the visions, we see a Stoneward, and Stormfather directly says “You can learn the same surge. It will work differently for you.”
We also see Renarin using Illumination on Adolin, completely opposite Shallan’s use of it, but to a similar effect. Shallan’s illusions are lies to encourage people to live up to them, while Renarin’s are showing people the truth of what he sees.
@31 – What the Stormfather said was in error and will be corrected in new versions.
@25 LazerWulf
There are theories that what you are referring to, is what Jasnah mentioned to Shallan when her illusions started to take on a more physical “presence”. That maybe combining illumination and transformation would lead to solid light constructs that can fight back. People have theorized that the truthwatchers use illumination for remote viewing (like a tv screen to watch things at a distance) which would explain why Renarin’s corrupted version allows him to see, but of the future instead of the present. Windrunners coupling gravitation with adhesion could theoretically go faster than skybreakers by manipulating atmospheric pressure around them. Szeth does comment on how gravitation seems to feel more natural as a skybreaker, but I am going on recollection, so don’t quote me on that one. Perhaps Skybreakers use division to add additional propulsion and that makes a explosion/crack sound, which brought about the name skybreakers? Fun to think about :)
@28 birgit
I do see why not, and many theorize that will happen during the time gap between stormlight 3 and 4. Would certainly be a much needed boost to our radiants as the world war ramps up.
@30 John
Considering honorblades overlap in surges, there is a very good chance Szeth has already trained with all 10. That is a good point though that some of the radiants might resist training with him. It might take an order from Dalinar to get all to do so, and there still may be some friction.
@31 KefkaPalazzo
To clarify what Austin said, it was a typo. The Stormfather himself was not in error. The typo just said the wrong thing.
I am only halfway through Warbreaker, so I am afraid to read the comment section now that Azure has been mentioned. I’ll skim them, but I need to be careful until I finish the book.
Loved the Kenny Rogers reference. You do realize, though, that that song is now going to be stuck in my head all day!
Random thoughts on this chapter:
I love how the different POVs show us how the characters think of other characters, and how this is sometimes wrong. Kaladin thinks Adolin is confident, but in Adolin’s POVs that is not so.
I like to imagine Kaladin just intimidate-glaring Gaz right off the mission.
Kaladin thinks Shallan is trying to get to him. Perhaps she is getting even for his attitude about her and her “servants” being on the mission, mixed in with her usual Shallan humor, and I also think some buried hostility because he killed her brother is bleeding through.
I think Adolin’s humor worked because he let Kaladin mention it first, and then just played off that. And joked with Kaladin, instead of about Kaladin.
I found the reputation thing interesting, with the larger-than-life heroic figure that is hard to live up to. Shallan later gets stuck with Heroic Unmade Expert as it is expected she can somehow deal with the Unmade at the Oathgate because she chased off one in Urithiru. Yeah, that reputation thing can be a real kicker. Both Kaladin and Shallan are still inexperienced Radiants.
With the Unmade in the city and a large quantity of fused at the door, I get the sense that this mission is already in way over its head.
@33 – Right. I didn’t mean that the Stormfather somehow got his surges wrong lol. I meant that Brandon got it mixed up. It was a writing error, not a character error.
@austin
Well, we DO hear about surges working differently between orders. Ex. Szeth and Kaladin: Szeth is considering his practice with Gravitation and thinks “He did not have access to all the lashings, but the deadliest were still open to him”
If it was a typo, it wasn’t just a single one. It is referenced and implied throughout the book.
@32, @33, @35, @36, So what was the typo and how was it supposed to read?
@36KefkaPalazzo and 37 justafan
The typo was the surge that the stormfather said Dalinar had access to. Bondsmiths get Adhesion and Tension. Adhesion sticks things together, Tension (from what little bits we gather from WoB) makes soft things rigid (not meant to be perverted), so you can make a piece of paper as strong as steel. The surge the Stoneward used in the vision was cohesion, turning hard things soft (yet again not meant to be perverted lol). So you can turn rock to clay and shape it. Stonewards get both cohesion and tension. Tension is the surge they share, not cohesion
edit: interesting little side tidbit. I theorize that when Dalinar took the hit from the chasmfiend and held the claw, without his plate cracking and it seemed to glow, was a brief look at tension in action being used unconciously
as to Szeth’s comment regarding the lashings, they group the lashings for all the windrunner powers (both adhesion and gravitation). So a full lashing which binds two objects together, is referring to adhesion only. Thereby since Szeth is now a skybreaker, he would not have access to that lashing.
@36 – Looks like @38 Scath beat me to it. 2 of the 3 Lashings come from the Gravitation surge and the other one from Adhesion (sticking things together with stormlight). Szeth no longer has access to that Lashing, but still can perform the other 2.
Re: Stormfather – I wonder what the correction will have him say. Something like “That surge is the opposite of the one you can use.”
@39 Austin
Hmm good point. I doubt they will go to the extent of changing the entire scene to have the Stoneward use a different surge, so yeah I think they will say something sorta like what you suggest. Maybe “That is one surge that Stonewards get. The other surge they use, you share, yet you shall use differently”. At least better worded than I attempted lol.
edit: @36 KeftkaPalazzo
I think a point of clarification, I am not sure if I can speak for Austin, but us bringing up that the Stormfather was a typo, is not saying the surges won’t work differently for other orders. At least for me. As you said the stormfather does say the surge will work differently for Dalinar. Just the stormfather referred to the incorrect surge due to the typo. I gave some examples in an earlier post of how some people theorize the surges work differently from order to order (elsecaller ranged soulcasting, lightweaver solid illusions, etc)
A quick question in regards to surges. Since lightweavers can turn stormlight into visible light, the illusions, can they convert stormlight into the entire electromagnetic spectrum? Same with sounds, they can supposedly make their illusions speak, can they make shockwaves?
@41 smaugthemagnificent
I do know people theorize that lightweavers caused the shattered plains, so they think it can make shockwaves or use the entire electromagnetic spectrum. I believe there is a WoB that say they could make lasers, or irradiate an enemy, but I will need to dig to confirm it. I will edit if I find it.
edit: found them!
Questioner [PENDING REVIEW]
Lightweavers are radios, aren’t they? Lightwaves are radio waves? Light and..they’re the same thing, aren’t they?
Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]
They can do sound too, yeah. So you’re saying lightweaving with illusion… can it?
Questioner [PENDING REVIEW]
Can transmit radio waves? As in, communicate over long distances, it’s one of the most important things in battles, right? In war.
Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]
[At the same time]Yeah I actually…right right right, yep, yep, yep.
I had someone in one of my very early books irradiate someone with Lightweaving, I think.
Questioner [PENDING REVIEW]
Oh that’s right you’ve got multiple kinds of Lightweaving.
Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]
Yeah.
Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)
[Discussion of Lightweavers manipulating other forms of electromagnetic radiation]
But the ultimate form (That Brandon said would be too much to be practical both in needed stormlight and application) would be the control of Gamma Radiation. If this could be harnessed, Lightweavers could literally become mini nukes, or death guns. The biggest downside to making Gamma radiation would be the damage the lightweaver would most likely suffer. So gamma radiation is impractical but its a fun thought experiment.
The best part of this whole speculation was how excited Brandon was about my train of thought. I don’t know if anyone had brought up this train of thought before. But he was happy to remind me that things will get pretty interesting when Lightweavers discover lasers and start using them in combat.
@42 Scath
Thanks! thats really neat that he ahas indeed thought about that, i didnt even think of a radio, that would indeed be useful. the thing about lasers though, it takes a ton of energy and specific conditions, to create them, so not sure how that would be accomplished. they are a lot of aspects where light could be useful beyond illusions.
@43 smaugthemagnificent
No problemo, glad to help! Makes those sheets of glass in the rooms at Urithiru sound more and more like TVs or communication hubs huh? Be crazy to see magi-tech Roshar assuming it survives Odium. I can’t help wondering if a fully oathed lightweaver could create a solid illusion of a chasmfiend and ride that monster into battle :)
I’m assuming Lightweavers are able to bend light around themselves to become invisible, too.
Why would gamma ray damage to the Lightweaver be a problem? One, they have instahealing. Two, presumably the Lightweaver could direct the harmful radiation away from her/himself? Gamma rays can be reflected but it’s unlikely to be a problem on the battlefield.
@45 Austin
When a light weaver gets a better handle on their power, I couldn’t see why not. Shallan was able to go from only stationary illusions that you need a hole to peak out of to full body moving illusions. So maybe that’s the next step?
@46 carl
Now I dont know anything on how gamma radiation works, but the impression I got from the WoB is it would be like a mini nuke. Unless the lightweaver could fire that far far away, then the blast back would be just as damaging to them. Unless they had a truthwatcher on hand to literally heal while damaged, it would drain them of stormlight, of which is already drained from using the ability to begin with. But this is all conjecture based on the WoB. I dont know anything on how gamma radiation works. So I defer to any more knowledgeable on the subject
The problem with bending the light around you to make yourself invisible, is that it effectively makes you blind. If all the light is bending around you, none of it is hitting your retinas.
IIRC, The TV show version of The Invisible Man got around this by allowing him to see other spectrums of light, and only the visible light was redirected, but that was a property of the quicksilver that made him invisible.
So, Shallan, having encountered and Eldritch Horror, now has a better grasp of non-Euclidean geomentary?
What I like best about the bromance that has slowly developed between Kaladin and Adolin is the way they joke with each other. They respect each other at this point in the story and that shows in how they interact. I think this relationship was well written.
I disagree with Gepeto that Dalinar and Adolin aren’t leaders. They both lead by example and their soldiers are loyal to the point that Dalinar could have usurped the crown even more than he had already if that had been his goal.
Elhokar was just so tragic. We wouldn’t have cared about him if he hadn’t begun to change. At this point in the first read I’d had no clue about what was to come and felt so happy that he was improving. Little did I know…
@48 LazerWulf
Well in Mistborn, if light passes through speed bubble’s boundary, then anyone within them should be microwaved to death. If light doesn’t, then it would be the same issue you posit, you wouldn’t be able to see. Brandon has accepted that is one of the few situations he has to just say “magic” and let the rule of cool take precedent. So you raise an excellent point, but it doesn’t completely rule out the possibility. Maybe a light weaver could cloak every inch of their body except their pupils. Could someone look for two tiny black dots millimeters in diameter? Sure! But it certainly would be easy to miss.
@49 Ellynne
LOL, well it could have expanded her mind into a whole new realm of horrors and dimensions. So maybe? lolol
@51 – Exactly what I was thinking. Bend light around everything but your pupils.
If a Lightweaver uses a gamma laser pointed away from them why should that damage them? The damage is caused by the high-energy photons hitting the body, but if those particles go in a different direction they don’t hit you.
#47, @Scáth:
(Why did you gain, then lose the accent over the “a”? Do you have two accounts?)
I actually have a biophysics degree. (OK, it’s an Associates degree, but I did complete 3 years of a physics major on my way to bio grad school.)
The above is not completely descriptive of gamma ray interactions with living organisms. You, Scath, get hit by gamma rays all the time. They’re passing through you right now. They’re just at very low intensity. Nuclear bombs do generate gamma, but that doesn’t mean that all gamma ray exposure is identical to being at ground zero of a nuclear detonation. Here’s something Isaac Asimov for one pointed out (in his favorite scientific publication, when he was a radiochemist): you are radioactive. Right now, atoms in many of your cells are emitting radioactivity. Again, the level just isn’t high enough that you usually care.
Expose Shallan or any other Radiant to gamma, and unless it kills them instantly they can just use Stormlight to heal themselves, is what I’m saying.
As @birgit points out, if she creates the gamma rays moving away from her, they wouldn’t even affect her health. That’s what I was implying when I said that gamma reflection would not be a factor–if they’re moving away from Shallan, they’ll never hit her in the first place. If she generated enough that they heated up the nearby matter she could get (regular thermal) burns, but that’s a huge amount of energy by definition and presumably she could tone it down.
#52, @austin:
Not to be too nitpicking, but you don’t see with your pupils. Pupils are transparent, in fact, so if everything else was invisible almost nothing would happen. You’d have to keep your whole eyeball working, so light could be direction-restricted by the pupil, focused by the lens, and detected by the retina.
Probably easier to do what Shallan already does and just cover herself with an illusion of something/someone else.
@54 Carl
So to make a short story long, scath with an accent means shadow in Gaelic. When it first joined I tried to make the accent but it wouldn’t show. Gave up for awhile. Then for the hell of it I tried again, this time the accent works. The keyboard combo to make accents on my computer is difficult to remember and I have no idea how to do it on my phone without having to dig or download an additional keyboard. I am reply on my mobile so I just type my name in. I try to type responses on my computer whenever I can because it’s easier for me to keep track of things and respond in a more coherent manner. So when the font on my name is red and currently missing an accent, that means I’m not logged on at the time because I’m on my mobile and dont have the patience to figure out how to enter in the accent everytime while when I’m on my computer, it saved it with the accent so it shows it everytime. Having said that, I’ll reply to everyone better once I get on my computer later today :)
Lol So I will try and group these by subject instead of by individual
@birgit, and Carl (Re:gamma lightweaver)
Then I defer to those with more knowledge on the subject matter. I am only doing a thought experiment attempting to understand why they may have come to the conclusions they did. Having no understanding of how gamma radiation works, I assumed the questioner meant by shooting a gamma ray, it would create an explosion where they pointed it at like a mini nuke. Stormlight is a finite resource. You use the same resource to fuel your powers as you do to heal yourself. That is why I feel mistborn do have a slight edge of radiants in some situations. To use arbitrary numbers to illustrated. If I have 100 units of stormlight, and it takes 60 to create a gamma ray nuke explosion, I now have 40 units of stormlight left. If I am unable to get far enough way so as to not be caught in said gamma ray nuke explosion, then I will need stormlight to heal. If it was a nuke explosion, then in order not to be vaporized in the blast radius, I would probably be using those full 40 units of stormlight, or need even more to heal. That results in after the nuke, if there were any enemies outside the blast radius, to be able to attack me when I am fully drained of stormlight. That was what I thought the logic was. But if the gamma radiation laser thingie could be fired at least 5 miles away (which is the blast radius of a 1 megaton nuke), then yeah I could see the lightweaver just needing to heal from the nuclear fallout which theoretically would need less stormlight to heal from. I do not think what the person in the WoB was going for was to kill an enemy through just irradiation. But that is a lot of assumptions on my part, and as I said, I have no knowledge on how gamma radiation effectively functions, so everything I wrote is probably completely inaccurate lol. So if Birgit and Carl says it would work, I believe them.
@austin and Carl (Re: Lightweaver full body camouflage)
Correct me if I am wrong, but although the whole eye needs to work, the only part that needs light to enter in order to “see” is the pupil. The iris controls the aperture, but I thought the pupil is what you technically see out of? That is why you can wear colored contacts, or the ones that cover the entire eye except the pupil. I assumed Shallan could link the illusion to parts of her eyes, like she does with the rest of her body, so when the iris expands or contracts, the illusion also expands and contracts so the only thing not covered is the pupil, which would still allow light to get in for the brain the process an image. All the other processes (lens, and retina) are inside the eye ball behind the pupil. At least that is how I envisioned it.
The pupil is just the hole through which the light enters the eye. The retina cannot be transparent if you want to see because it is the “screen” on which the image is actually sensed by vision cells (cones and rods).
Gamma rays are just very high energy “light” with high frequency/short wavelength.
@57 birgit
Ok I think I see where the miscommunication is coming in. Austin and I are treating it like an “invisibility cloak”. It is a covering. So you just do not cover the opening of the eye in which light enters to allow you to see. Basically we are treating it like sclera contacts, which covers the iris, and the white of the eye, but you can see out of because the pupil is not covered. So it wouldn’t be making the retina “invisible”. All the observer would see are two tiny black dots. Hopefully this clarifies the issue. I included images below, hopefully they work (for instance in the below image, what is red would be the invisible covering. Under the invisible covering, everything is visible)
Scath @58. The first picture is one of two things: a) my eyes the morning after a hard night of drinking; or b) proof the our world is in the Cosmere and there are Voindbringers on Earth.
Thanks for reading my musings.
AndrewHB
aka the musespren
@59 AndrewHB
LOL, indeed it truly was the humans all along!
the thing about gamma radiation, its very high energy. so would it take more stormlight than say microwave energy to generate?
I’m curious how the beta read actually works. I didn’t realize, for instance, that there were conversations or comments between beta readers. Also, how much of the book do you get at a time, and how different is it from the published version?
Please share what the experience is like (or at least as much as you are allowed). Curious mind wants to know.
@Scáth, if the retinas are not stopping light, they can’t sense it. If they are stopping light, they’re visible. That’s how “visible” works.
You seem to be assuming that “gamma rays” implies “as much energy as a nuclear explosion.” It does not. Like Austin says, gamma is just light. To be more specific, it’s a range of colors. They’re colors we can’t see, in the same metaphoric direction as ultraviolet but even further from the visible spectrum. You can emit 1 microwatt of gamma radiation. In fact, you emit about 500 gamma rays per second (if you’re of average mass). I’m pretty sure I don’t need to stand 5km away from you to be safe.
@smaugthemagnificent: as mentioned above, gamma radiation is not necessarily of (to use physics terminology) high energy flux–that is, lots of energy per given surface area (to oversimplify). That can be a tiny amount of energy. Gamma is just light. Now, each quantum of gamma radiation is higher in energy than each quantum of, say, blue light–in fact, that’s what “gamma radiation” means–but the total energy can be anything down to enormously too little to matter. Contrariwise, an infrared light source could vaporize you, even if each quantum of IR light is of much lower energy.
There is a post about the Oathbringer beta https://www.tor.com/2017/06/27/unity-of-purpose-the-oathbringer-beta-story/ and WoR: https://www.tor.com/2014/02/12/beta-reading-words-of-radiance/
@63 Carl
I guess at this point I am at a loss. Light passes through the pupil to the back of the eye which is the retina. If you put on a mask, but don’t cover the eyes, you still see. If you put in the contacts I posted, covering the entire eye except the pupil (which is the entrance), you can still see. Shallan has created illusions of a boulder, with little holes to peek out of without a problem. She has also created an illusion that made her entire body black to blend in with the shadow in the asylum, so I really do not see how doing the same, but having the illusion make her invisible would be any different. But at this point I would rather not beat a dead horse and derail this further. You and Birgit do not feel that would work. I respect that. Austin and I do. Guess all we can really do at this stage is RAFO. I wish you luck!
As to the gamma radiation, like I said, I was just trying to take what they said and apply it. I assumed the point was the use of gamma radiation in such a way to create a mini nuke, which is what the WoB said. I do not know if it is possible to create a mini nuke with gamma radiation. If you say, as you are clearly more knowledgeable on the subject than I, that it is not possible to create a mini nuke from gamma radiation, then I am inclined to believe you. If that is the case, then I have no idea why Brandon and the Questioner said what they said. So I guess my question is, using gamma radiation, is it possible to create a nuclear explosion. Not just the radiation fall out, but by focusing the radiation can you get the same effect as you would from dropping a nuclear bomb? I am genuinely curious.
@65 – Hey Scath, I did some research about eyesight. So apparently light first hits the cornea, the clear film surrounding the iris (the colored ring around your pupil). The cornea refracts light into the pupil. So apparently eyesight won’t function without the cornea. The iris and pupil work in conjuction, i.e. the iris expands or retracts the pupil depending on how much light there is. That’s why in a dark room, your pupils expand and take up most of your iris. I think we were both right and wrong. You would still see the pupil, but the pupil works in conjunction with the iris, so you would see a pair of colored iris floating in the air. For a lighteyes, that would be very inconvenient!
@64 birgit (and Alice)
Thanks for posting those links. That pretty much answers my questions.
RE: Invisibility
I think the problem that people are having is in word choice. What Scath and others are describing is probably better termed camouflage, rather than invisibility, since you are talking about creating an illusion that makes you impossible to see. Invisibility would involve making the body transparent/see through, which is where Carl (and other’s) objections seem to be coming from.
@carl @scath I was assuming that the gamma radiation is at levels dangerous for life forms, otherwise it would be kind of pointless, now as for making a mini nuke, thats not how nuclear explosives work, in the case of the lightweaver, it be like being struck by a gamma ray burst from a star, a massive dose of radiation that would kill you in seconds. In fact, that is how several scientists died shortly after ww2, one guy was messing with the plutonium core, and his screwdriver slipped, causing the beryllium shield to go over the plutonium, causing a massive burst of gamma radiation, he did a few days later. Other forms of radiation can be just as bad like you said. a broadcasting radio for example, if you were to stand directly in front the machine(and I mean literally in front of it, otherwise you’ll just be burned) as it was broadcasting, a 60s burst of microwave radiation would cause you to die in 6 months of organ failure.
Edited to clarify radio towers, not radar specifically
@66 Austin
Yeah, my thinking is how Shallan can color the iris brown, and when the pupil expands or contracts, the illusion expands and contracts with it, so you only see brown, and not brown with an inner rim of light eye when the pupil contracts (like what happens with color contacts on earth). So the light reflective illusion would be attached at the pupil, so when the pupil expands or contracts, it would move with it, so still the only thing seen would be the pupil, light would still be able to filter through the cornea, through the aperture that is the pupil, into the back of the eye to hit the retina, to cause the brain to receive the information and allow the person to see. I think RogerPavelle hit the nail on the head regarding the confusion between myself and Carl and Birgit. I will elaborate further in my response to Roger.
@67 RogerPavelle
Exactly my thinking. I mentioned in post 58 that I was envisioning it as an “invisibility cloak”. Perhaps that was a poor word choice, but I was referring to the invisibility cloak used in Harry Potter. As you said, conversely Carl and Birgit I think thought I was referring to invisibility like the “invisible man”. In the first, the person themselves and all their organs and insides are “visible” but it is a covering that bounces light off it, making it appear to an outside observer as “invisible”. The eyes would be peeking out from this covering, so the individual could still see, but since it would be only the pupils that would be visible to the outside observer, it would be very difficult to nail down. Another example would be the Lightbringer series by Brent Weeks. There is a cloak that functions exactly that way, and the assassins as they walk, look diagonally in front of them at the floor before they strike to make it even harder to see their eyes. In the latter, the person’s entire organic make up is in fact invisible which is what I feel Carl and Birgit were saying. Thank you Roger for really hitting the nail on the head in my opinion :)
@68 smaugthemagnificent
Thank you for elaborating. So a burst of radiation from a star is enough to kill you in seconds just from exposure? Do you think stormlight would be able to heal it fast enough or would it be too much too fast? Could a dose that strong be directed away from the user like Carl and Birgit posit, preventing the lightweaver from being effected, or would the dose be so high and powerful that just being near its origin would do the same to you? Thank you for the additional information! :)
And something interesting to think about invisibility. If you bend light away from yourself, is there a void in the field of vision of the person looking? It won’t be like the Lightweaver is see-through and the person looking would see what’s behind them. The light is bent away, so in theory, there would be some type of void. A blind spot. Actually, I’m not sure how the human brain would interpret that…
You have to bend the light around you so it continues in the same place behind you where it would be if you weren’t there. Of course it would have a slight time lag because of the longer way, but if the hidden area isn’t too big that’s hard to notice because light is so fast. If people might be looking at you from different directions the light on all sides has to be guided around you.
@69 Scath
a gamma ray burst from a star, even thousands of lightyears away would fry half the planet and destroy our electrical systems, the ozone layer and ionize the atmosphere killing even more people! it would depend on if the lightweaver is “throwing” the gamma burst away from him, and if it being projected from outside his body, i think he will be fine, kind of like shining a killer camera flash at someone. if any of the radiation came back at him though, he’s basically toast, as in all likelihood the lightweaver just spent all of his stormlight in making a gamma burst strong enough to kill living things almost immediately.
@70 Austin and 71 Birgit
Austin, here is an example of what Birgit is referring to
@72 smaugthemagnificent
Thank you for all the awesome info and answering my questions! Lol killer camera flash.That really would be a scary ability to have if possible.
If you can shoot out hundreds of megawatts of power from your body, it really doesn’t matter whether the light is infared, visible light, gamma rays, or what. That much energy can vaporize someone. Gamma is dangerous because it’s not immediately visible or painful (so you don’t know you’re exposed) and sometimes occurs naturally (so you don’t know you’re in danger), and because smaller amounts of it could cause long-term effects by damaging DNA (such as cancer) even at relatively low exposure levels. The last would not be that useful in battle, but might be for very long-term assassination plans, except that no non-worldhopper on Roshar could possibly know about gamma rays (and I don’t think cancer has ever even been mentioned in the Cosmere).
RE: Gamma Radiation
I’m surprised no one has mentioned the other obvious downside to gamma ray exposure…
[ask Bruce Banner if you don’t understand, since I can’t figure out how to include photos]
so seeing as gamma rays are not very practical for use in combat, or anywhere really, what would be the most effective offensive capability of a manipulation of the electromagnetic spectrum by a lightweaver?
@75 RogerPavelle
LOL
@76 smaugthemagnificent
Good question. I am wondering that myself!
As a nuclear chemist, I can guarantee @Scáth that it is definitely impossible to create a nuclear explosion using gamma rays. As others have pointed out, gamma rays are just really energetic light – which is to say, they are light waves with very high frequencies, even higher than X-rays. They are one type of radiation that radioactive particles (including fallout from a nuclear explosion) emit.
@76 & @77 – In a funny pseudo-coincidence, I kinda envisioned Lightweavers ultimately being able to use a mega laser similar to the one generated in Final Fantasy XII, called “Scathe.” I’ll try to include an image for all those non FF players.
@78 Calyx
Thank you for the input! Its one of the biggest things I love about Sanderson’s books. How steeped in reality his magics are. So I guess we can all agree in conclusion, the individual who stated it would work as a mini nuke probably misspoken.
@79 KiManiak
LOL, that would be epic
Lightweavers can manipulate sound waveforms as well as light. Playing with sound waves enough and a Lightwever could do plenty damage on the battlefield. Lasers are obviously cool but they won’t be omnidirectional. Sounds at a frequency that shatters gemhearts or makes one’s ears bleed or causes damage to internal organs would be low energy high damage omnidirectional tools that could really turn up the destruction to 11. Not as flashy but definitely scary.
@81 EvilMonkey
Good point! Sorry to be graphic, but talk about human milkshake by the end of that. Yikes!
EvilMonkey Explosive comopression without the explosian would be quite damaging. although, the poor lightweaver would need to be dropped into enemy ranks to attack in that manner, then evacd to prevent losing them lol
@83
I envisioned a scenario where a Radiant gets surrounded and they pulse out a destructive sound wave for breathing room. Lasers for range attacks, malleable Crypticblade for melee attacks, sound waves for defense. Another application could be Lightwevers in a line pushing out a continuous invisible sonic minefield for a given ares of a battlefield.
Brandon is himself a tabletop RPG player. At some point, he’ll write a Radiant rules lawyer, who realizes that truespren Shardblades can shapeshift, and don’t need to actually cut someone to kill them, just wave through their bodies (unless the target has Shardplate). So they’ll ask their spren to become a 100 meter long Shardblade and start cutting giant swathes through enemy hordes.
OK, actually I’m sure there is a limit there because Brandon is very smart, but it has not been shown yet.
@83
Why would the radiant need to be dropped in the middle of enemy ranks? Couldn’t they shape the sound wave to emanate only in one direction, sort of like a loudspeaker?
@83 smaugthemagnificent
LOL
@84 EvilMonkey
Maybe they could even make solid illusions to run up and kamikaze with sonic or solid light explosions. What seems to be a normal cremling suddenly goes boom. Horrifying and awesome to think about all at the same time lol.
@85 Carl
I think I read somewhere a debate on that. Whether or not you could materialize a shard blade directly inside of someone or do you have to materialize it, and then cut. The scene with Shallan and Tyn gets referenced, but if I recall correctly, it never conclusively says whether it appears in Tyn, or it appears and Tyn falls onto it. I lean towards unable to materialize within someone, but I think it is still open ended at this point. As to size limit, it has been said by Sanderson that it can only get so big. I think the size of a person is the limit. I will dig for the WoB.
edit WoB for reference:
Questioner
We’ve seen that the “Sylblade” can change shape to fit Kaladin’s needs. Is there a limit on the size of the blade that Syl can become?
Brandon Sanderson
Yes.
Questioner
Okay. And can you share with me what the upper limits on those sort of things would be?
Brandon Sanderson
Upper limits of hers are about human-sized.
Questioner
Is it always going to be something that has to be a fighting utensil, or does it have to…?
Brandon Sanderson
That’s going to RAFO. You’ll have to see.
I will say this. You have seen Syl changing shape from the first time she appears onscreen and she is frequently not a weapon.
@86 RogerPavelle
smaugthemagnificent was responding to EvilMonkey’s idea for a type of attack. That attack in this case would be an AoE with the effect centered on the lightweaver. This would be problematic if among your own troops because you cannot select who gets hit and who does not. So to employ such a tactic it would be advisable to drop said lightweaver in the thickest part of the enemy troops. The problem is, if the lightweaver uses all their stormlight for an extra powerful burst of sound to take out a huge chunk, they leave themselves vulnerable to reprisal, so they would need an effective form of evacuation from the situation in order to survive.
On the subject of Lightweaving, isn’t it implied that they are able to combine Soulcasting with the illusions? Like, to make them solid and able to affect the world physically.
@88 Austin
During the battle of Thayla, they do seem to be giving more resistance when cut, and Jasnah comments on her assuming Shallan was doing exactly that. Given Jasnah’s research and seeming knowledge on the Knights Radiant, I am inclined to believe her. So although not expressly confirmed, I lean towards yes, that is how those two surges combined would function. But that is my own interpretation. Nothing solid to back it up yet.
@smaugthemagnificent, EvilMonkey, Scath
I am still not clear on why sound waves would need to be omnidirectional in order to create “sounds at a frequency that shatters gemhearts or makes one’s ears bleed or causes damage to internal organs…” As I asked previously, why couldn’t a Lightweaver stand in the front lines and create such waves in the same way loudspeakers can direct sounds in a more focused direction?
@90 RogerPavelle
Not to speak for EvilMonkey but I believe this is one of those situations where it is correlation, not causation. So I do not take what EvilMonkey said as meaning that a lightweaver could not direct soundwaves in ways other than omnidirectional. EvilMonkey gave an example of a way he thought the lightweaver could choose to use the ability. smaugthemagnificent responded that if the lightweaver chose to use the ability in that manner, then it would work best as being dropped in almost like a bomb. I do not think it was anyones intention to say a lightweaver could not direct soundwaves. They were just positing ways of employing the ability in that specific manner. Hopefully I interpreted what they were saying correctly, and hopefully I explained it well. It is like they were saying different ways of drinking vodka in a screw driver. Sure you can use vodka in other drinks, but they were speaking of screwdrivers in particular.
edit: i think where the confusion came in is the earlier discussion on whether or not gamma rays could be directed, which I believe it is safe to say all agreed (Carl, Birgit, and Smaugthemagnificent) they can.
Got it in 1 Scath. Just giving an example of ways to use sound waves in battle. Sound to me seems best suited for omnidirectional attacks. Omnidirectional Light pulses seem to me to be more energy intensive and more dangerous to the user. Some have talked about gamma ray radiation backwash. I can explain better if anyone is interested. But it is only theory anyway.
@92 EvilMonkey
I wonder if the fused that can alter its body would be immune? Could it alter its bone structure to be vibration resistant, and also encase its organs in such a way that it would deaden the sound by the time it reached it? Hmmmm.
@90 iI didn’t even think about that. of course sound can be focused, thats a good point. @93 scath sound and overpressure are the dangerous parts of explosives that don’t rely on shrapnel, and are what liquify organs, bomb squads wear those large bulky suits to shield from shrapnel mostly, and to try and dampen the effects of the explosion, but its not perfect. a fused would end up being too dense to do much about sound waves that could induce organ soup. but they could probably defend their gemhearts. Also dont forget, their exist microwave anti-riot devices that beam low levels of microwave radiation at crowds to disperse them, the microwaves make you feel as if the fat under your skin is boiling, its very painful, but has no lasting side affects.
@94 smaugthemagnificent
Hmmm, very interesting. Maybe while the sonic waves are bombarding them, they “turtle” and when the lightweavers stormlight is expended, they go back to normal and attack. Even if they couldn’t do that, that is an excellent point about defending the gemhearts as that could be a one hit kill to them if it shattered. Lol I think you just came up with another weapon in the Releaser’s arsenal.
Gah. I wanted to interact with a bunch of stuff here, and still haven’t gotten to it. Now I’m just commenting to get it into my conversations. How lame is that?
@96 Wetlandernw
I want to hear your thoughts on this entirely crazy conversation in which discuss lightweaving and too much science
@96 – ha, this is basically me for every thread on this re-read, even when I do manage to read them more or less on time.
I’m coming into these so late that I don’t want to rehash everything but I just want to say how much I love the touches of things like the epigraphs, map annotations, etc. In addition to providing various clues and worldbuilding and hints (in a very clever/economical way) the little personalities Brandon Sanderson builds makes his world feel so lived in by a wide variety of people. Like, there’s no particular reason to create an epigraph of a snarky, skeptical, contrary Skybreaker (although knows knows, there could be some mad significance to it seven books down the road) who doesn’t want to participate in whatever is going on for whatever reason (honestly he kind of reminds me of my younger son, lol) but he did. And it cracks me up.
One of my biggest disappointments is purely meta in that I was spoiled for Vivenna’s appearance in this book (I think in one of the pre-read threads on Tor – I think people were treating it as knowledge everybody know and talking about it freely in one of the comment threads. But now I don’t remember. It was probably due to the WoB which I kind of wish he hadn’t given, but oh well. Different people have different attitudes about what constitutes a spoiler or if they even matter). So once an unfamiliar color named character showed up, it was fairly obvious. I wonder at what point I would have figured it out, and it would have been a really enjoyable twist. I also knew Nightblood was in the series (before I even started reading it as it was old news by then) but that said, when it finally showed up, I was so engrossed in the chapters I was reading that I wasn’t consciously thinking about it and so when you get the internal monologue I squealed a bit :)
Can we get a link to that WOB about that first truth, second ideal