Top of the morning to you, oh fine rereaders of the Oathbringer! Welcome back to the excruciatingly detailed investigation, as we sit in on a highly informative conversation between Dalinar and the Stormfather. Also, Bridge Four. Also also, team Sadeas fail.
Reminder: We’ll potentially be discussing spoilers for the entire novel in each reread. This week, there’s no direct discussion of wider Cosmere issues. But if you haven’t read ALL of Oathbringer, best to wait to join us until you’re done.
Chapter Recap
WHO: Dalinar
WHERE: Urithiru, Azimir
WHEN: 1174.2.1.5 (11 days after his last appearance in Chapter 59; 8 days after Chapter 63)
Dalinar retrieves Jezrien’s Honorblade from its hiding place, and has a protracted discussion of Heralds and Bondsmiths on his way to deliver it to Bridge Four; he’s hoping they can use it to continue practicing their Windrunner powers in Kaladin’s absence. He then prepares to depart, solo, for Azir, to talk them into joining his coalition. On his way to the Oathgate, he breaks up a skirmish between Aladar and Sadeas soldiers which is rapidly moving from “mock” to “real” as the soldiers antipathy toward one another overcomes their discipline.
Truth, Love, and Defiance
Title: Binder of Gods
Before he was Herald of Luck, they called him Binder of Gods.
AA: In context, Stormfather is telling Dalinar about the powers he now holds—powers that were once held by Ishar. While Dalinar doesn’t do any god-binding in this chapter, the title seems portentous.
Heralds
Ishar—Herald of Luck, Binder of Gods, patron of the Bondsmiths, associated with the role of Priest, the divine attributes Pious and Guiding, and the essence Sinew. Jezrien—Herald of Kings, patron of the Windrunners, associated with the role of King, the divine attributes Protecting and Leading, and the essence Zephyr.
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Oathbringer
AA: Ishar’s connection to this chapter is obvious, since the title refers to him, much time is spent talking about him, and Dalinar-the-Bondsmith is the viewpoint character. Jezrien is a little less obvious, though they talk about him a bit as well; most likely, he’s here because his Honorblade is entering service again.
Icon
Kholin Glyphpair for a Dalinar POV
Epigraph
The disagreements between the Skybreakers and the Windrunners have grown to tragic levels. I plead with any who hear this to recognize you are not so different as you think.
—From drawer 27-19, topaz
AA: This week we have a Stoneward expressing concern about conflict between Skybreakers and Windrunners. I wonder if the disagreements were about whatever caused the Recreance, and if perhaps this is the beginning of what made the Skybreakers decide not to participate. Pure conjecture, but I do wonder.
AP: I can definitely see how those two orders in particular would be in conflict. The Skybreakers focused on law and rules and the Windrunners focused on matters of honor and moral rightness. I expect to see a lot more conflicting coming between Nale’s group and the rest of the Radiants.
Stories & Songs
AA: Roll up your sleeves, boys and girls. There’s a lot of information about the Heralds coming up here…
“There are some who assumed you were one of the Heralds,” Dalinar noted to the Stormfather, who rumbled in the back of his mind. “Jezerezeh, Herald of Kings, Father of Storms.”
Men say many foolish things, the Stormfather replied. Some name Kelek Stormfather, others Jezrien. I am neither of them.
AA: I thought it was a nice touch to address this, finally. We’ve seen both assumptions in play, and we mostly knew neither was true. It’s just fun to see the misconceptions across the world, and know that they are misconceptions.
“But Jezerezeh was a Windrunner.”
He was before Windrunners. He was Jezrien, a man whose powers bore no name. They were simply him. The Windrunners were named only after Ishar founded the orders.
AA: I mean… we knew this, of course, but it’s such a different angle on who the Heralds were. Each one was unique, and used his or her unique set of powers to help humanity defend itself against the parsh and the Fused. I really would like to get some clue as to how many Desolations happened before the orders were founded; I’m just curious about this sort of thing.
AP: I don’t remember this info before. I think it’s interesting that one of the Heralds decided that they all needed more organization and just sorted them all into Orders.
AA: It’s been hinted more than outright stated, mostly. Syl told Kaladin some of it—when the spren decided to try and bond humans to give them the Heralds’ powers, Ishar decided that it was a nice idea but needed some structure and limitations. Dalinar’s vision with Nohadon hinted that some of the initial Surgebinders were dangerously unreliable at that point. Speculation is that Ishar bound the spren to the Ideals so that Surgebinders, which then took on specific Orders with their own sets of guidelines, were required to live by those guidelines or lose their powers.
… Ishar founded the orders.
“Ishi’Elin,” Dalinar said. “Herald of Luck.”
Or of mysteries, the Stormfather said, or of priests. Or of a dozen other things, as men dubbed him. He is now as mad as the rest. More, perhaps.
[…]
“Do you know where they are?”
I have told you. I do not see all. Only glimpses in the storms.
“Do you know where they are?”
Only one, he said with a rumble. I … have seen Ishar. He curses me at night, even as he names himself a god. He seeks death. His own. Perhaps that of every man.
AA: That’s not disturbing or anything. He “perhaps” seeks the death of every man? Great…
Tezim, the god-priest of Tukar? Is it him? Ishi, Herald of Luck, is the man who has been waging war against Emul?”
Yes.
“For what purpose?”
He is insane. Do not look for meaning in his actions.
AA: We now know for sure where Ishar is and what he’s doing… if not why. I wonder if it’s true that there is no meaning but insanity in his actions. Also, this ended, once and for all, my cherished theory of Vasher and Ishar being the same person. Ah, well. It was fun while it lasted.
AP: It also seems kind of sad, a thousands of years old being with unknown powers, who doesn’t know who he really is anymore. Most of the heralds seem tragic to me. But then again it’s hard to be sympathetic when he’s set himself up as a god and wants to destroy everything. I also have trouble with the multiple names for the Heralds. It’s really confusing to me. I can see why you might think Vasher and Ishar might be the same!
AA: It really is sad—every one of the Heralds we’ve seen so far, except Taln, is just… lost.
I had thought during WoR that Zahel might be Ishar, but there was pretty compelling evidence that he was Vasher. Then I tried to figure out if maybe Vasher and Ishar were the same, and with no more evidence than we had for a while there, it looked like a possibility. Slim, maybe, but still a possibility. But now, not so much.
Squires & Sidekicks
“This,” he said to the men of Bridge Four, “is the Honorblade your captain recovered. … Anyone who holds this will immediately gain the powers of a Windrunner. Your captain’s absence is interrupting your training. Perhaps this, though only one can use it at a time, can mitigate that.”
AA: Well, it makes a certain amount of sense, I guess…
Teft reached out, then drew his hand back. “Leyten,” he barked. “You’re our storming armorer. You take the thing.”
AA: Why? Because he feels unworthy of the Honorblade, or because he’s already two steps into the process of becoming a Knight Radiant?
AP: I think because he’s already bonded to a spren. The spren might not like him holding another blade. Is there a similar reaction to holding a dead blade?
L: That’s an interesting question. I fall more in the side of him feeling unworthy of it—this is a holy object to them, and Teft already has a lot of baggage regarding his self-worth.
AA: Aubree, the only reason I don’t put it down to the bond is that neither Dalinar nor Kaladin had any problem with the Honorblade. It’s an artifact, not a dead spren.
“Airsick lowlanders,” Rock the Horneater said, shoving forward and taking the weapon. “Your soup is cold. That is idiom for ‘You are all stupid.’ ”
AA: Rock is adorable. That is all.
AP: I like his practicality.
The clock fabrial on his forearm dinged, and Dalinar stifled a sigh. She’d learned to make it ding?
AA: Heh. Also, I just realized I don’t have a good unit for talking about fabrials. Huh. I just wanted to note something here, though. Someone complained elsewhere about how long it should have taken to go from alarm clocks to alarm wristwatches… and I just realized yesterday what the big difference is. In the real world, it was a matter of getting the same sort of mechanism to function in a much smaller formats. This isn’t a mechanism; it’s a fabrial. Navani just needed to make the fabrial tooling and readout smaller. At least that makes sense to me.
Two of his Shardbearers—Rust and Serugiadis, men who had the Plate only—practiced with massive Shardbows,
AA: Just for what it’s worth, these two received the Plate won from Jakamav and Elit in the infamous four-on-one “duel” back in Words of Radiance. Hi, guys! Nice to see you again!
A significant number of the common soldiers sat around holding spheres, staring at them intently. Word had spread that Bridge Four was recruiting. He’d lately noticed numerous men in the hallways holding a sphere “for luck.” Dalinar even passed a group out here who were talking about swallowing spheres.
AA: We not going to meet anyone else who decides to swallow gemstones, or anything. No sir. Not a hint of foreshadowing here, sir!
The Stormfather rumbled with displeasure. They go about this backward. Foolish men. They can’t draw in Light and become Radiant; they first must be approaching Radiance, and look for Light to fulfill the promise.
AA: Quite true. But very human behavior, nonetheless.
Two blocks of spearmen pressed against each other on the plateau … Dalinar saw the warning signs of things going too far. Men were shouting with real acrimony, and angerspren were boiling at their feet. … Green and white on one side, black and maroon on the other. Sadeas and Aladar.
[…]
Dalinar shouted, and Stormlight shimmered along the stones before him… The rest got stuck in the Stormlight, which glued them to the ground. This caused all but the most furious to stop their fighting. He pulled the last few apart and pushed them down, sticking them by their seats to the stone next to their angerspren.
AA: Well, that’s a neat trick if you can do it! But it does not bode well for army discipline if you have to resort to sticking their butts to the ground to make them shut up. As Dalinar notes, for all Amaram’s reputation as a general, he’s not doing a good job as Mr. Sadeas. Dalinar excuses it as “well, he’s never had an army this size before,” but you can’t help wonder if it’s incompetence or disinterest. Is he already setting up to betray Dalinar? He and Jasnah come up with a very clever plan to keep the Sadeas army busy and productive … and which will naturally come back to bite them.
AP: It makes me wonder what Amaram is actually up to during this time. Sons of Honor shady activities? What led him to Odium?
AA: And will we ever find out?
Places & Peoples
“I did a great deal of business with the Azish when I was younger,” Fen said from behind him. “This might not work, but it is a much better plan than traditional Alethi strutting.”
AA: But of course, you’re not going to tell us what the plan is. Well, I’ll admit it’s much more fun to watch it roll out than to be told.
He couldn’t write to them of course, but he could flip the reed on and off to send signals, an old general’s trick for when you lacked a scribe.
AA: Silly Alethi strictures anyway.
Tight Butts and Coconuts
It clicked. “Stormfather!”
Yes?
“Oh. Uh, that was a curse.… Never mind.”
AA: Bahahahahaaaaa! … I mean, it had to happen sometime, right?
Weighty Words
But do not look toward the powers of others, even those who share your Surges. Their lot is not yours, and their powers are small, petty things. What you did in reknitting those statues was a mere trifle, a party trick.
AA: Ooof. Weighty words, indeed. Reknitting those statues seemed pretty impressive at the time, and now they’re “a party trick”? Okay, then! I think this is the first time it’s really put right in our faces that the Surges are not necessarily used the same way by the Orders that share them. (So, for example, Truthwatchers might not use Illumination the same way Lightweavers do, as has occasionally been suggested.)
L: Interesting that the Stormfather appears to be putting the powers of the Bondsmith above the others… which is expanded upon in the next quote.
Yours is the power Ishar once held. Before he was Herald of Luck, they called him Binder of Gods. He was the founder of the Oathpact. No Radiant is capable of more than you. Yours is the power of Connection, of joining men and worlds, minds and souls. Your Surges are the greatest of all, though they will be impotent if you seek to wield them for mere battle.
AA: So no pressure, there, Dalinar old buddy.
But what does he mean, “Yours is the power Ishar once held”? Does Dalinar hold all the powers of a Herald? (I’ve always assumed that the Heralds had something … I don’t know, something more than the Knights Radiant who emulated them. Aside from the Oathpact and all the good times on Braize, I mean.) Has this always been true of Bondsmiths? Or just the one bonded to the Stormfather? Or just Dalinar, now that Tanavast is dead? And when he’s called “Binder of Gods,” is that referring to the Singer ancestors, or to Odium? I would guess the former, since the following sentence references the Oathpact. GAH! I want to know it aaaaaaallll!!
AP: So, like, all the info we needed for the big reveal at the end was right here for us! During the beta, a group of us mostly theorized that this, with the “unite them,” meant that Dalinar was going to reconstruct the shards of Honor back together, or even recombine the shards to make a Voltron-type being we called the Almightier. Making a perpendicularity is pretty cool and all, but I’m still holding out hope for the Almightier.
A Scrupulous Study of Spren
Dalinar lowered the Honorblade, looking eastward toward the Origin. Even through the stone walls, he knew that was where to find the Stormfather.
AA: For some reason, I find this fascinating. The Stormfather resides at the Origin? Gah! I want to know where and what it is in the worst way.
“When … when were you thinking of informing me of this?”
When you asked. When else would I speak of it?
“When you thought of it!” Dalinar said. “You know things that are important, Stormfather!”
He just rumbled his reply.
Dalinar took a deep breath, trying to calm himself. Spren did not think like men.
[…]
“Did you know that I could heal the stone?”
I knew it once you did it, the Stormfather said. Yes, once you did it, I always knew.
“Do you know what else I can do?”
Of course. Once you discover it, I will know.
AA: And it’s just as frustrating for Dalinar as it was for Kaladin—or maybe more so! “Spren did not think like men,” indeed! I really like this aspect of the world-building, no matter how frustrating it is to feel like the spren could tell us All The Things, if only they would. It makes sense that since spren don’t have the same frame of reference as humans, they will see things much differently. It’s a little easier with someone like Pattern, because we’re frequently reminded that he’s sort of a personification of maths, and looks like a fractal. Sylphrena and the Stormfather both seem so much more human that it’s easy to forget their alien nature.
AP: What I like about this is how the spren grow in awareness as their bonded Radiants grow in ability. Once Dalinar can do it, the Stormfather “always knew” that he was able to. He’s able to remember more. Spren to full Radiants are likely pretty powerful! And that means that it’s likely that Dalinar/Stormfather aren’t done leveling up. If Dalinar is this powerful at relatively low Radiant level, what will he be able to do when he’s got his full abilities?
AA: I can’t wait to find out!
“Are there others like me out there?” he finally asked.
Not right now, and there can ever be only three. One for each of us.
“Three?” Dalinar said. “Three spren who make Bondsmiths. You … and Cultivation are two?”
The Stormfather actually laughed. You would have a difficult time making her your spren. I should like to see you try it.
AA: ::gigglesnort::
“Then who?”
My siblings need not concern you.
AA: And oh, the speculation about them… We can be pretty confident that the Nightwatcher is one (I think that’s confirmed later?), but The Other Sibling is still a huge question. The epigraphs in Part Three seem to strongly hint that the Sibling is connected to Urithiru somehow, but there are still so many questions… (More about this below!)
AP: But also, the Stormfather confirms that there is not currently another Bondsmith! Let the speculation continue as to who the other two could be!
L: Lift is the closest person we know to Cultivation, but she’s already got her own powers… This makes me wonder, though. Do the other Bondsmiths necessarily have to have the same secondary surges, I wonder?
AA: I think they must, Lyn, although I’m betting that the way they use the Surges will be as unique to each Bondsmith as they are to the Order.
As for speculation on the other two, I half expect Navani to bond one of them. I can’t decide if it’s more likely she’d bond the Nightwatcher in her role as Mother, or the Sibling in her role as Engineer/Artifabrian. I’d love to see Rushu bond the Sibling, though; I think that would be perfect. Not only is she a fabrial expert (suitable to the spren who makes Urithiru function), she’s an ardent and apparently asexual, as the Sibling seems to be. I also think Rock would make an awesome Bondsmith.
“Have I ever asked how you renew these [spheres]?”
Honor’s power, during a storm, is concentrated in one place, the Stormfather said. It pierces all three realms and brings Physical, Cognitive, and Spiritual together momentarily in one. The gemstones, exposed to the wonder of the Spiritual Realm, are lit by the infinite power there.
AA: I wonder if Dalinar remembered this conversation later. That’s pretty much exactly what he did in the Big Moment, isn’t it? So… he sort of was a highstorm?
AP: Yep, it’s all right there for us!
“Could you renew this sphere, now?”
I … do not know. He sounded intrigued. Hold it forth.
Dalinar did so, and felt something happen, a tugging on his insides, like the Stormfather straining against their bond. The sphere remained dun.
It is not possible, the Stormfather said. I am close to you, but the power is not—it still rides the storm.
L: The implication being that this is something he could do, eventually.
AP: Or could Dalinar create additional perpendicularities at battle sites, providing an infinite recharge to troops?
Sheer Speculation
AA: There are a number of theories floating around about the Sibling, and I’m sure I haven’t heard them all. There are a few people holding strongly to the idea that Cusicesh is the Sibling, but I don’t quite get how that works with the Urithiru tie. One of the conclusions people jumped to was naturally that three Siblings and three Shards meant that the third one had to be connected to Odium, but Sanderson precluded that when he said that the Unmade are to Odium what Nightwatcher is to Cultivation and Stormfather was to pre-shattering Honor.
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The Ruin of Kings
So what is the Sibling? We’ll have this discussion many times before the next book comes out, I’m afraid. One theory that I rather like is that Odium was trying to splinter the Sibling and was making Unmade out of the pieces he could break off, so the Sibling withdrew to prevent any further damage. A bit far-fetched, but interesting.
The one I personally believe has the most logical support is that the Sibling is the spren of the stone. The planet, the continent, the landmass, whatever you want to call it. This makes sense to me because if the Stormfather was the spren of the highstorms, and the Nightwatcher was the spren of life, living things, growth… wouldn’t there logically be a spren of “the ground” as it were?
AP: One theory I liked is that one sibling is of Honor (Stormfather), one is of Cultivation (Nightwatcher), and one is somehow a fusion of their two powers.
L: The Sibling being Of Stone would make sense as to why Szeth’s people venerate stone, as well.
AP: And could tie in to the unique stone patterns in Urithiru.
Quality Quotations
It was shortsighted of him to see such an ancient weapon merely as the sword of the Assassin in White.
AA: Yes, it is.
He hoped he could remember it exactly to repeat to Navani—of course, if the Stormfather was listening, he’d correct Dalinar’s mistakes. The Stormfather hated to be misquoted.
Thus endeth this week’s infodump discussion—and what a fascinating infodump it was! Didn’t even feel like one, at least not to me! Jump into the discussion below, and then join us again next week for Chapter 65, wherein Dalinar tries his hand at diplomacy, guided by the plans of Fen, Jasnah, and Navani.
Alice is “enjoying” winter in the Pacific Northwest. She thought winter was going to be on a Monday this year, but it seems to be stretching. Might even be a whole week!
Lyndsey is busy hunting lucky emblems with the pint-and-a-half in Kingdom Hearts 3. If you’re an aspiring author, a cosplayer, or just like geeky content, follow her work on Facebook or her website.
Aubree will form… the HEAD!!
Perhaps the Sibling is a remnant or former connection to Adonalsium itself. That would also support it being connected to Roshar (the land) itself…. And, as we get further from the Shattering the Sibling gets weaker and more removed?
I would happily read a whole book of infodumps on the Cosmere. A chapter of it is no sweat. I wonder if someone more comfortable playing semantic games could get more out of Stormy than Dalinar managed.
“Ok, you don’t know what I can do until I do it. That’s fair. Totally unrelated topic, what powers does Ishar have when he’s got his honorblade? What powers did previous bondsmiths use while you were watching?”
I can’t remember, but is this the chapter where the Stormfather said that the honorblades held a lot more power than anyone knew? I’m paraphrasing. I can’t remember if that was this chapter or a previous one. Anyone have the book handy?
This was the chapter were we see a “significant number” of common soldiers trying to draw in stormlight thus indicating many are hoping to join the ranks of the Radiants. To echo Carl’s former questioning, yes, there is cause to wonder why Dalinar’s own son isn’t one of those soldiers, why he isn’t “trying” as this obviously was my first thought when I read the scene. I noted this upon my first read.
As I have said before, I do think both Dalinar and Jasnah handled Amaram and the Sadeas’s soldiers poorly. Their Highprince was murdered and while we was a piece of scum, for his men, it remains a crime for which no one has been punished for, yet. The likely culprit being either Dalinar or someone close to him, but with Dalinar leading the investigation (well, technically Adolin, but everyone knows it means Dalinar), they all know whomever did it won’t suffer consequences. Putting myself within those men’s shoes, the situation must have felt like one giant injustice: their Highprince was murdered, probably by the Kholins, but since the Kholins are in charge, justice will never be seen. And yeah, we could say this is karma for leaving the Kholin army to die in WoK, but the individual men aren’t going to think along those lines.
Dalinar and Jasnah’s mistake was thus not seeing nor realizing those feelings existed. Appointing his own son was also one great mistake Dalinar did, he should have appointed someone more… neutral. Someone not so close to him and certainly not someone known to hate Sadeas and to do whatever it is Dalinar says… For most in-world character, Adolin is nothing more than Dalinar’s puppet. By all means, from an outside perspective, the whole thing stink of a coup and yeah, I do understand why the Sadeas’s soldiers would be pissed. Had Dalinar and Jasnah actually shown a willingness to work with Amaram, the bomb might have been disarmed before it got to blow out. Might, but we’ll never know.
On the matter of the “Azir plan”, well, once we reach this chapter, I will speak of how I disliked this chapter. Part of the reason is its denouement read too much like deus ex machina, to me, and had we known the plan, in advance, things might have flown down differently, at least for me. I do have a gripe on how Dalinar’s powers are always *so* convenient right when *he* needs them just as he *never* has to train to earn them (unlike well the other Radiants). So huh, no, I did not like what is to come on this front. I do dislike the idea of Dalinar being *more* than a regular Bondsmith with more powers which always are available, at the snap of a few fingers (or a clapping of his hands or a mere touch) without feeling there is, well, a learning curve? Am I the only one who felt this way?
As for the “Unite them”, I am one of those boring readers who hope is merely means unitying humans and listeners together to fight Odium and end the Desolations cycle for good. I am not big onto the whole “Dalinar reforges Honor and unites a bunch of Shards together” or the Voltron theory. So while it does seem highly likely this will indeed happen, I find it also sounds very similar to the ending of Mistborn era 1: it was a great ending, I absolutely loved it, but if it happens again, it won’t have the same impact. At least, it won’t have it for me. So what I am hoping here is for Brandon to throw in a curve ball, to pull the rug under our feet, to trump readers expectations.
I don’t know if other readers share those thoughts.
And yeah, I don’t really fancy Dalinar becoming more powerful… He’s already too God-like, I fear what the narrative will read like if he becomes all powerful. What will the odds be within future books if our cast of characters are practically invincible and have magic tricks up in their sleeves to pull out when needed without needing to, well, learn how to use them beforehand? As such, I HOPE Dalinar will not be able to recharge spheres at will… that’s… too much. Too much power, not enough odds.
I don’t have a strong opinion on whom becomes the next Bondsmith, I have read theories on Navani and Rlain. I think both are interesting picks with their pros and their cons, so I am willing to go with whatever Brandon will decide.
So bunch of things
First I think Teft’s hesitancy was due to feeling unworthy and worrying what he might do with it while under the influence of drugs. As Alice said, other radiants have held the honorblade without problem, and it is not a “dead” spren blade
I do wonder when exactly Amaram switched sides? I think it would be interesting to find out that he could have switched sides since the moment he found Taln at the end of Words of Radiance and could have realized the Heralds abandoned mankind upon speaking further with him. That would then certainly paint all his entreaties towards Kholin and Co during Oathbringer in a much more nefarious, and sinister light. Trying to get them to work with him, to undermine them.
As to the Sibling, realizing that my holding to the Cusicesh theory has a whole lot of info against it, these are my reasons for it. I think the gemstone archive quote was speaking to two separate things. For instance “Good bye my home, good bye my sweet love”. In that case I would be saying good bye to my house because I will miss the memories there, and separately also saying good bye to my wife. Two separate entities, in one sentence. I think whatever hurt the Sibling(Cusicesh) is what made it weaker to coincide with Brandon’s WoB. I think the breakdown would be Air (Stormfather), Earth (Nightwatcher) and Water (Cusicesh). But that is just my own take on it. I readily admit it is an outlier.
I don’t have any confidence in this proposal, but it struck me as interesting when I had the thought so I figured that I’d share it:
What if Urithiru is essentially a shell? Rosharan life is largely carapaced or be-shelled (cataphracted?), so if the spren of Roshar takes its form from the native life to the planet then perhaps it can inhabit a shell (admittedly not in the traditional sense). That would suggest that the place to search for the 3rd Sibling is to find another giant shell-like structure – perhaps including an actual Greatshell of some kind. If its magnitude is sufficient it seems unlikely to be bound by any kind of gemstone other than a perfect one, so I would hesitate to think that it is, or perhaps even can be, resident in a gemheart.
@7 Porphyrogenitus
Interesting theory. The (I think they are called from vague recollection) Reshi islands that move could be the greatshell you are thinking of. It could explain the potential sapience shown towards Rysn. Though Shallan also got the same sense from the santhid so it could be nothing. Either way, wish you luck with your theory!
@7, 8
The Greatshells are living, biological creatures that have formed a bond with a certain type of spren. This allows them to get around stuff like the square-cube law (otherwise, they would be crushed by their own weight). The Sibling would be a spren like the Stormfather and the Nightwatcher. Though, it’s not Cusicesh, in my opinion ;)
@9 Austin
True, though when Chasmfiends die multiple spren drift away from the corpse. So although I do not personally prescribe to Porphyrogenitus’s theory, I do not think the fact that the greatshells would already be bonded to gravity spren would preclude them from also being bonded to another spren. I could see if the theory was right, that the greatshells were bonded to lesser gravity spren, while having a stronger/greater bond to a bondsmith spren. But again, it is not that I personally feel things will go that way, just I can see where he or she is coming from.
RE: Sibling
Since Tanavast and woman holding Cultivation were involved with each other, is there a reason they couldn’t have had a child (who would then power the Sibling)?
RE: Jezrien
I want to take this statement literally. Was Jezrien a Surgebinder before becoming a Herald? If not, what powers did he have and where did they come from? Was he a worldhopper (from one of the planets we haven’t visited yet, or even a Soother whose abilities let him manipulate others into making him a King)?
@11 RogerPavelle
Nope (as in no reason they couldn’t). Brandon confirmed that Vessels could have children together. I have included the WoB below
Paladin Brewer (paraphrased)
Are Shard Vessels able to have children?
Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)
Yes they are.
Paladin Brewer (paraphrased)
Even Sazed, with his body being a eunuch?
Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)
Yes, though technically all of Scadrial are the children of Preservation and Ruin.
Personally I take it literally as in the powers granted via the honorblade predate that of the title “windrunner”. However, responding to your theory, Jezerin could theoretically have powers from Ashyn that caused the planet’s destruction. Just not sure if that power system would have worked once they got to Roshar. I feel we do have confirmation that all the Heralds were from Ashyn, and not originally another planet, but that I would need to dig. Interesting thoughts!
I am hoping Rlain will be a Bondsmith. At least one should be a Listener, and Rlain has studied and lived among humans. No human has done so with Listeners, so Rlain may be the only one on Roshar who can bring an understanding of both worlds to the table.
Amaram’s failings as the Sadeas leader makes me miss an Amaram POV– or at least feel the lack of information on Amaram, what he’s up to, and the Sons of Honor. I feel like there is a hole here, that I hope will get filled in a later book. Knowing something more in Oathbringer, though, would have made this arc stronger.
@@.-@ Gepeto:
Re Adodin not “trying” to become Radiant, I think there are several simple factors why not. He’s busy, currently trying to save his hometown, Kholinar. He’s close to quite a few Radiants, and has a better idea than most that doing things like trying to swallow spheres is pointless to becoming Radiant. He’s a Shardbearer, and knows what happened to Renarin with his Shardblade, and that his father had to give up his; it is impractical for him to give up his Shards before he bonds a spren, but would know soon enough with his Shards if he were. Giving up his Shardblade would be a bit like asking someone to throw out their journal, I would think– might take a bit for Adolin to get used to the idea of throwing out the one thing with which he could share his deepest thoughts. And, lastly, TWoK, WoR, and Oathbringer proceed rapidly– it has only been weeks since Radiants have revealed themselves– has it even been more than 1 month at this point?
Re: The murder investigation, I agree with you that assigning Adolin to investigate was a poor choice for the appearance of justice. I am not sure who a neutral party would be who would be acceptable to House Sadeas.
Re: The effect of perceived injustice on Sadeas’s people and Dalinar and Jasnah’s inability to understand it– yeah, that’s about par for the course for the Alethi elite. When Dalainar was lamenting Sadeas’s murder, he went on about how they had needed Sadeas’s battle experience and what a loss that was and blah blah blah– and no, not really, Sadeas was a backstabbing liability. However, the people he led were an asset that needed to be won over. The perception that Dalinar would just murder people in dark alleys to get what he wanted and use his power to cover it up is what lost them. That is a far better reason not to murder a scumbag like Sadeas than the idea that Sadeas is somehow an irreplaceable Heralds’ gift to the battlefield. The Alethi elite tend to look at those at the top and place the value on the people there, and see those below as expendable. This is one reason I really enjoy Kaladin’s POVs, I think, because most of the other major characters are high born, and their POVs show it.
I think he just means that Dalinar has the same powers that Ishar did. He isn’t yet always aware (heh) that Dalinar is about to Ascend, which presumably means that he surpasses or at least equals a Herald’s power. (We don’t know, but certainly there’s no evidence yet that a Herald could open Honor’s Perpendicularity. We do know, interestingly, that one of the Unmade can apparently open Odium’s Perpendicularity.)
Note: the word (translated as) “gods” in the Cosmere (and LDS Church) is not limited to the way Jews, most Christians and Muslims use the word. (No, I don’t think Mormons are mainstream Christians, for this very reason.) Any sufficiently virtuous mortal can be promoted to “god” in LDS theology, and in the Cosmere, Stormfather and Heralds are considered gods and are worshipped. So are the Returned on Nalthis, for instance. (Technically, therefore, Ishar and Zahel are both priests and gods.)
@nightheron
… aside from Moash. And Kaladin. Mind you, Rlain as a Radiant of some kind would be interesting, since the Singers/Listeners have spent literally millennia convinced that this was impossible, and yet Venli just did it. (How come this is suddenly a possibility, anyway?)
@14 Carl
I theorize (with very little to back it up), that Venli’s bond with a voidspren gives her more cognitive presence than with other lesser spren. This allows her to become “meat” to the listener “broth” so a radiant spren could bond it. The reason this never happened before, is a listener bonded to a voidspren never had a reason to want to join the other side. The other side was only ever seen as the enemy. It is a very loose personal theory.
@14
The Recreance. The spren’s feelings toward humans are not so warm and fuzzy anymore. I believe the spren communicated to Venli that it felt betrayed by humankind. The question now is whether the bond between spren and Parsh is still “broth” compared to the “meat” of a human bond (the idea being that the Parsh exist partially in the Cognitive realm and the spren don’t get as much out of a bond as they do with humans).
I need Honor-Dalinar to happen! I feel like it was setting up since the Way of Kings.
Out of all the characters within the cast, he’s the one who genuine wants to understand this world, this universe. I hope one day it will happen. I want Dalinar to know about the larger cosmere story, to get all answers he’s seeking for. He desirves it.
14 Carl,
I don’t think Heralds can summon Honor’s perpendicularity. I doudt they have any powers without Honorblades.
I guess, “Binder of Gods” doesn’t reffer to any actual power, it is more about Ishar being founder of Oathpact. And Dalinar could be able to do so as well. Perhaps.
But what he did with perpendicularity, this should be power of the Shard.
@18 leatherkiwi
I disagree. I think “Binder of Gods” is very specific and probably refers to Odium. The Oathpact seems to be around to keep him locked away, or, at least, bound by rules that keep him on Braize. This would also be why Odium mentions in chapter 57 that he is “shackled” and believes that Dalinar has the power to release him.
based on one of the epigraphs in words of radiance, i had assumed that whatever the radiants did to incapacitate the parsh and create the parshmen somehow injured the sibling. (Wor, ch 58)
re: 21, for context, here is the epigraph in question along with the commentary in the WoR reread:
I think we can now say that this definitely refers to whatever was done to sever the connection of the parshmen so they were unable to bond spren, but I’m not sure I see any evidence that this process injured the Sibling.
@18 leatherkiwi
WoB do confirm the heralds have abilities outside of their honorblades. What those abilities exactly are is up in the air.
I do know Brandon confirmed that recharging stormlight is a thing bondsmiths can normally do. Now whether the perpendicularity is how a bondsmith does it, that I am not sure, but if the perpendicularity is a byproduct of Dalinar recharging the stormlight, then that is something any bondsmith could do by extension.
@21 Laura
I agree. I feel like I read somewhere that it was confirmed that Melishi (who was the one that came up with incapacitating the singers) was bonded to the Sibling at the time. I am not sure though, so would need to dig.
@14 Carl
Fair point, they spent a little time with the Parshmen. Though I thought Rlain was a spy for a while, so has a longer history of living amongst humans. He’s also a Listener. Singers also deserve a voice, but the only Singer character we’ve been introduced to who isn’t dead that I can think of is Khen. There are probably a few more whose names escape me.
Re: the presence of Jezrien as well as Ishar at the head of this chapter: Jezrien’s honorblade is certainly enough to justify the Jezrien icon, but I wonder if it is not also about the role Jezrien and Ishar played. Together, they were the worldy and spiritual leaders of the Heralds – their King and their Priest. Dalinar the Bondsmith has that role of spiritual leader that Ishar once held; but he is also the king of Urithiru and head of the coalition and the Radiants. He basically combines the roles that Jezrien and Ishar previously held separately.
Re: the Skybreaker/Windrunner conflict, I am intrigued by the observation that these two are not so far apart as they think. As Aubree says, it’s easy to see why they would be in conflict; so I’m intrigued by the idea that maybe they *can* come together. In general, my sympathies are with the Windrunners (“do the right thing”) moreso than the Skybreakers (“follow the law”), but it’s good to remember that the Skybreakers desire to follow the law is, at its root, still about doing the right thing. They still swear the First Ideal – life before death, strength before weakness, journey before destination. And – they come across as arrogant and judgmental, but there is also a humility in saying human judgment is flawed, all humans are flawed, so we need to adhere to a code, not our own opinions.
I’m just saying – I think it’s a limited kind of morality, and I think you need to question the code as assiduously as you do humans (self included) – but this moment in time in the real world reminds me of the ideal we have in America, that we (in theory) want to be a government of laws rather than men. That seems very Skybreaker-y to me.
Re: the Herald infodump. Loved it!!! Want more!!!
More thoughts but I’ll split them into a second so I’m not TOO long-winded.
Thoughts on Ishar:
We knew Ishar founded the Heralds based on the Words of Radiance epigraphs. Chapter 42: “But as for Ishi’Elin, his was the part most important at their inception; he readily understood the implications of Surges being granted to men, and caused organization to be thrust upon them; as having too great power, he let it be known that he would destroy each and every one, unless they agreed to be bound by precepts and laws.”
I remember because I always found it fascinating, not just that he ordered them to get organized, but he *WOULD DESTROY ALL OF THEM* if they didn’t agree. Intense. And confident. And ominous in retrospect, as it reminds me of the letter he sent Dalinar in Oathbringer….
Herald of Luck or mysteries. Interesting. This makes me think of the Spiritual Feruchemical power of Fortune, listed in the Mistborn Ars Arcanum. And isn’t Hoid supposed to be using Fortune in some way to make sure he gets to the right places at the right times? Seems right that Ishar/Bondsmith powers are spiritual in nature, tied up with things like Connection, Identity, Fortune, Investiture. Connection or Identity – which would we say the Bondsmiths took from the Last Legion to turn them into Parshmen? Connection, I guess, based on what the Stormfather says later in the chapter.
I’m *very* sceptical that Ishar’s actions don’t have a plan. This was the guy who came up with the Oathpact (my reading, at least) and the one who found the loophole. He’s the one all the Heralds trusted to understand and plan. I very much think he has a plan – and that it will not be good for us!
There are three Bondsmith spren and three humanoid species. Dalinar could be the human Bondsmith, Rlain the parsh Bondsmith and maybe Axies the Aimian Bondsmith.
Thoughts on the rest of the entry:
Loaning out the Honorblade to Bridge 4? It’s practical, and also shows the regard Dalinar has for them. I don’t remember if I thought at the time that Dalinar was being a little too cavalier with the Blade, or if it just seems that way in retrospect, now that I know it will get stolen.
I also read Teft not taking the Blade as him feeling unworthy.
I love that Rock used the idiom, and immediately explained it. He wanted to be sure they didn’t miss the insult. :)
Wow, totally missed the gemstone swallowing foreshadowing!
Yeah, Amaram going from “Son of Honor” to First Disciple of Odium is quite a heel turn, really. It’s not so noticeable to us, because Amaram has always been, er, *odious* to us. But I wonder what Amaram’s internal justification for going apostate is. You know he has one; Amaram is good with the self-justifications, the toad; but I’m not clear on what it is.
The Almightier, heh.
Yes, definitely more leveling up for Dalinar ahead; he doesn’t have Plate yet, after all.
I like the idea that the Sibling is a mix of Honor and Cultivation, since we see that pattern with the Radiant spren and lesser spren. The stone idea seems workable too.
The Stormfather hates to be misquoted, lol.
Fun entry, thanks Lyn, Alice, Aubree!
On to the comments! I *think* I have time before getting back to work….
Why do all the info dump chapters leave me wanting more info!?! For every question answered, there are two or more that pop up! I love it, but I still want more!
Honorblade/Teft: I think he feels unworthy. Even though he might not even need the honorblade to do his practice. I’m glad he shows up in this chapter at least.
Sibling: I’m with Alice on this one. The main features of Roshar are: highstorms, plant life, and rock. With oceans being maybe a slightly distant fourth (as mattering to the people on the planet). Which would mean that the stone foundation of the world would have a spren of good strength, similar to the Stormfather and the Nightwatcher.
Sadeas/Aladar skirmish: I loved that he wondered if the Thrill was there. And if maybe it actually was at the time and later when Dalinar gets his memories back. And it’s just there, calling to him, in the back of his mind. Making his recovery just *that* much more difficult. Also: sending the Sadeas soldiers to Thalen City wasn’t really the best idea in hindsight but I don’t remember thinking it a terrible idea the first time around.
“I will unite instead of divide, Stormfather. I will bring men together.”
This is why I’m not 100% on board with the idea that Nightwatcher is a Bondsmith spren. Why would she, and by extension Cultivation, want someone to speak this Ideal? Its pure Honor. How does uniting people further Cultivation’s mission to help people and worlds progress and grow?
To me, for Nightwatcher to fit with the Bondsmiths, the Ideal would have to be significantly different. Something to do with uniting people with the life cycle of Roshar. We’ve seen that intention matters more than wording, but I’m still not sure this would be aligned closely enough with what Dalinar swore.
@28 chaplainchris1
My own interpretation on why Amaram went to the other side is when he found out that the Heralds lied, and abandoned humanity, it called all his actions done in that pursuit into question. Every action that hurt others, every action that he excused “for the greater good” was no longer in fact for a greater good. It was all for a lie. Overwhelmed with the weight of that responsibility, I see Amaram readily taking Odium’s offer to “take his pain”. Amaram lost his “excuse” so he fled to find another.
@30 Zodda
Interesting thoughts. I think the nightwatcher could fit in with that oath or one similar, because bringing people together means cultivating their identities and learning to work together to produce something greater than the some of its parts. So a rose garden instead of a single rose. Symbiosis is another example of this. Two separate beings working together united in cause. That happens in nature all the time. As mentioned earlier the gravity spren with the great shells are a prime example of this.
@20
The Oathpact is for the Fused. Odium is bound to the system by another arrangement, directly with Honor. Heralds copied Shards. Spren copy Heralds.
For Dalinar and his treatment of Amaram and the Sadeases:
I’ve said this before and I truly believe this to be so, but blaming Dalinar solely for Amaram’s betrayal robs Amaram of any type of agency. I wonder both what Dalinar should have done and what Amaram did to deserve that type of consideration. Hindsight is 20/20. It turned out badly so the tendency is to blame someone. But I don’t see how Dalinar and Jasnah could have acted differently from what we’ve seen. Maybe they could have handled the optics better. They needed someone fron Public Relations. Or a highprince not into betrayal.
I concede that Adolin may not have been a great choice to head up the murder investigations but really, who else could he have picked? The candidate for the job had to be someone Dalinar trusted to be competent and one whose judgement the Sadeases would accept. Anybody fit that criteria that doesn’t have an agenda, an axe to grind? And really, screw them guys anyway. This is the same army that marched away from allies engaged with an enemy, an army that left allies to die, an army shamed by a bunch of bridgemen. The Alethi nobles play politics for blood as they well know. Sadeas lost. That should be the end of it for them.
@32 EvilMonkey
Just a point of clarity. Ialai Sadeas never accepted anyone else from the Kholins to head up the investigation. She told Adolin that she was naming Amaram to look into it. So at no point did she think Adolin or anyone named by Dalinar was actually going to investigate the matter. Just seems Amaram never found out enough info to point the finger.
Oathbringer page 232
She stood up “Good day, Adolin Kholin. i hope you will share what you discover with me, so that my own investigator can be better informed.”
“I suppose” Adolin said, standing “Who is leading your investigation? I’ll send him reports”
“His name is Meridas Amaram. I believe you know him.”
(few paragraphs later)
Ialai “He assures me he will return to duty soon, and will make finding my husband’s murderer a priority“
I remember seeing WoBs to the effect that some power from all of the 16 is anywhere that existed before the shattering of Adonalsium. Might be a fun curve ball if the sibling is a piece of power from one of the 13 that aren’t “present” in the system. If it was a piece of power from one of Odium’s victims that would explain why it was suddenly weaker. Nope, that sentence doesn’t make sense, it became weaker after millennia of Odium being trapped in Roshar so the timing wouldn’t work.
Anyway, I’m going to spend some time mulling over which of the other 13/16 it would be the most entertaining for the sibling’s power.
@11 and 12 re: Jezrien – he was from Ashyn. He wasn’t yet a Herald, but made the exodus from Ashyn to Roshar. So did the other Heralds, with the possible exception of Jezrien’s daughter Shalash, who may or may not have been born on Roshar. See the WoB here: https://wob.coppermind.net/events/372/#e11945
@34 soursavior
If you are referring to the WoB I think you are, then from what little I understood of it lol, Brandon was saying all power of Adonalsium was present throughout the cosmere. When it shattered, all the power throughout the cosmere was still assigned to certain shards, but since they are not omniscient, the vessels do not know of all their power. Even though they still have access to it, until they realize they have access to it, they cannot access it? The WoB gets very confusing lol.
@13: On Adolin not trying to be a Radiant: Carl and I had a short discussion, last week, on the matter. My personal theory is Adolin doesn’t believe he can be a Radiant. He doesn’t believe he is worthy of becoming a Radiant: he believes *they* are Gods and he isn’t one of them. Also, Dalinar is the bench mark by which he evaluates himself and Adolin’s perception is Dalinar is the most amazing magnificent man to ever live on Roshar: nothing he will ever do will ever be enough for him to ever aspire to measure up to Dalinar. In this optic, no Adolin isn’t trying to be a Radiant, not because he is too busy to think about it, more because, in his head, this isn’t a possibility.
On being busy, Adolin is *always* busy. He always finds himself tasks to accomplish and within his first chapter we saw how he uses those as a means to prevent himself from thinking too much. So it is convenient for him to have so many things to complete as it makes sure he doesn’t have the time to think about what it means for his entire family being made Radiants and not him. Still, I find this recoup the “he doesn’t feel worthy” theory.
You make valid point in bringing out how long it has been, however the mere fact a growing number of soldiers are actively trying to seek the ranks of the Radiants indicate it has been long enough for others to yearn from it. Hence, investigating why the *almost* sole *normal* character evolving so close to the Radiants isn’t thinking about it should indicate something.
On the murder investigation: I think assigning someone from a neutral princedom would have worked better. Dalinar’s current allies are Aladar and Sebrarial. Hence, he could have picked a man (or woman) known to be fair within Hatham’s princedom (for instance). This would have, at the very least, given the impression Dalinar was trying to be impartial, but when he has his own son (who’s just the prolonging of Dalinar at this point in time) and his strongest ally lead the investigation was a poor tactical move. While the Sadeas soldiers certainly aren’t no rainbow shining angels, I can easily see why the situation would upset them up to a point where open rebellion seems like a good idea.
And yes, house Sadeas being one of the strongest military base in Alethkar, shoving them aside and not trying to run damage control was an odd move. Now they problematic Highprince is gone, the Kholins could have worked to develop a stronger alliance with them, but they wouldn’t do it.
Also, yes, again others do think Dalianr is perfectly capable of murdering someone in a dark alley, if not him, then one of his men. Turns out those suspicions were right: the Sadeas soldiers were right… Adolin *did* kill Sadeas and Dalinar *did* allow him to get away with it, hence the Sadeas’s soldiers (and Amaram’s) grievances have been validated: no justice was going to come from house Kholin. Granted, perhaps house Sadeas doesn’t deserve it after their betrayal, but if the Kholins want to pretend they detain the higher moral ground, they should start by now allowing one of their own to murder Highprinces without punishment, no matter how justified he might have been.
@25: I love the Skybreakers, not Nale, but their ideology which is linked towards trying to be *fair* without allowing things such as sympathy get in the way, more like our own modern day world works.
@28: We were supposed to get Amaram’s inner thoughts but Brandon chose against it to cut down length in the book. In retrospective, I would have preferred if he had cut somewhere else as this often comes across as missing.
@29: On Dalinar sending the Sadeas soldiers away, I thought it was a terrible idea: punish men wanting justice for a crime by making it sound as if they were the ones who did it in the first place. It was the equivalent of sending away a “problem” you don’t want to deal with in hope it will disappear.
@32: IMHO, Dalinar and Jasnah could have tried being more empathetic. They could have seen the situation was difficult to deal with. They could have appointed neutral investigators instead of two individuals everyone knew would cover up the truth if it so much as incriminated the Kholins. They could have realized sending the soldiers away in a “punishment” would only exacerbate the feeling of unfairness they already had.
Of course, Amaram is responsible for his own betrayal. He could have broken down from Alethkar without siding with Odium, this is a given. And it might even be it was too late for him on page one of Oathbringer, but fact remains for Dalinar and Jasnah handled the situation in about the worst possible way. In other words, they didn’t try to handle it. They didn’t want to waste time with it. They had their “other issues”, but if you want to be a leader, well, you kind of have to deal with those issues. You can’t just shove them away hoping it will disappear.
It might not have changed much, but at least we would have known they actually cared enough to try. And yes, they need someone to handle those issues as neither of them seem particularly suited for it which is why I suggested had they chosen a neutral investigator, things might have gone down differently. It would have been harder to pin it on Dalinar if the man conducting the investigation has no interest in not shoving blame on Dalinar if blame there is to shove.
As I said above, anyone from another princedom would have worked, one of the neutral ones. Anyone but Dalinar’s own son.
@Scáth i think we’re thinking of the same WoB. I’m not saying the other shard knows this superspren piece of their power is active on Roshar. I’d think the opposite.
Who might it be?
Autonomy? I don’t think so. They are pretty nosy and would have claimed that piece. Also, I don’t think they’re aspect lends itself to the parsh situation.
Harmony? Didn’t really exist, but technically big A could have left deposits of mixed aspect since he did contain all 16.
Endowment? Maybe!
Ruin? I don’t think it would fit with being a bondsmith.
Preservation? Possible, and severing the parsh connection wild certainly weaken something that was of preservation.
@38 soursavior
Hmmm, interesting thoughts. To continue your theory, if this was the case, I could see Autonomy doing so making the sibling an avatar, and it would act as a spy on Odium to make sure he doesn’t try any funny business against Autonomy even though they worked in the past.
Ok, as I was typing this response I think I am getting a better handle on the theory you are positing. Basically you are saying the sibling is a mass of investiture assigned to a shard way back when, and that shard did not “notice/claim” that power yet, but you are trying to figure out what shard potentially it could be to? If I now understand what you are saying, I would like to add it could be associated with a shard we haven’t even identified yet. So hows that for a trippy thought? lol
Not to burst any bubbles, but hasn’t Brandon said that only Honor, Cultivation, and Odium are invested on Roshar?
@40 Austin
No problem Austin. We are talking about a weird WoB where all investiture everywhere is already assigned to a shard. So every sense of “preservation” through out the cosmere is assigned to preservation. Every sense of “honor”, and so on and so on. These shards can access this power, but they have to first be aware of it even though it was always their’s. This is what Autonomy is doing with its Avatars. How this exactly functions is over my head. Basically in this case I am just parroting what portions I sorta get lol.
@36 Scath
Did you realize when typing this comment that it almost perfectly reflects what the Stormfather tells Dalinar about Bondsmith abilities?
@42 RogerPavelle
LOL, touche.
I wonder what is everyone’s thoughts are on Dalinar using Adhesion in a less “physical” way in so far as reuniting the temple through its “soul”. Anyone think its possible for more surges to work similarly? Or solely bondsmith?
@44 Scath
There are too many weird possibilities with this. For instance: Can you adhere a soul to a body, thereby preventing death? Can you adhere a spren to a person, making them Radiant? Would it be considered a form of marriage, adhering one person to another? If Dalinar combined the ability to adhere people to the ground with the ability to infuse stormlight, can he prevent entire armies from moving?
I think only the Bondsmiths can utilize “Spiritual” Adhesion. That seems in line with their abilities of Connection. The Windrunners get the lesser version. Though I am curious, since apparently all the surges have some differences between the Orders that share them, how the Gravitation surge differs between Windrunners and Skybreakers. Kaladin keeps saying the sky is his, but I haven’t really seen any difference between the two Orders.
@27 birgit,thanks for reminding me – a couple of months back during the Soulcasters discussion I had the thought that maybe they are connected somehow to the Dysian Aimians. It’s not a well supported idea, but I think there might be something to it – from the Interlude POV of Kaza she notes a will that helps her transform objects “.. felt the familiar sensation of being drawn to another world. Of another will reinforcing her own, something commanding and powerful, attracted by her request for aid”. The way spren are described feels domehow different; I think we can say that the Listeners used Soulcasters on the plains but not created them. To me that leaves potentially the Aimians, whose interactions with surges are kept in the dark from us. They’re also associated with change in terms of body transformations, and later in the interlude Kaza outright states that Aimians knew about soulcasters and you had to come there to get it. Could it be that the device, like the fabrials, traps a spren (or not) and, willingly connects to one of the Dysian Aimians? After all, they change shape all the time, transform eternally, have distributed consciousness, etc.
In addendum to that, going back to the Sibling and thinking of where Aimians could fit in, there was a Wob about the Sibling’s gender, iirc, that mentioned that “they” are rather confused by the notion, or words to that effect. Who better than to represent the personification of the horde that is quinissentially genderless, and is distributes its task among members, yet also represents a sapient self? This correlates nicely with what Team Dalinar debate in Oathbringer and what Renarin mentions about it being many parts of the whole. As far as I know we don’t know the relative timing of the Aimian vs the two human migrations,so maybe they were there even before humans to get the Sibling to mirror them.
Finally, a word on Cusicesh – imho it is not the Sibling, but a spren associated with the Irisli migration; could it be that it shows the faces of their ancestors? Also, isn’t there a WoB stating that Cusicesh is on a power level below the Nightwatcher and the Stormfather?
In another discussion on Tor.com they are talking about the high price of being a saint/god’s chosen in a fantasy. The Oathpact is certainly a case that fits. These Heralds have been tormented for centuries. No wonder they have broken down. I’ve been bothered by the horrible nature of the Oathpack since the first chapter in WOK.
From this chapter and later when we learn a Herald can be killed, it seem we could be seeing the creation of a new set of Hearalds with Dalinar as the lead. Darkness is never truely destroyed, right? We need both darkness and light which leads to maybe a new oathpack being made.
“This,” he said to the men of Bridge Four, “is the Honorblade your captain recovered.“
This, is how you lose the Honorblade your captain recovered; By letting all the secret societies and major world hopper players in the Cosmere know that you have a powerful artifact and you probably hide it somewhere in the tower. So if I have you followed or practice some social engineering I can narrow that down to a general location, search said location, and eureka! Dalinar should have had Shallan or Jasnah keep watch over it. He’s a great tactician and a brilliant fighter, but holy crap does he suck at espionage.
Yeah, the Heralds were plused up in addition to their fancy swords. Remember how Taln caught the dart Karate Kid style while in a disassociated state? That’s superhero class reflexes right there.
Aubree: re potential for conflict between Windrunners and Skybreakers. I agree there is a good possibility there was constant friction between the principles of the 2 orders. Remember back in WoR when Kaladin makes a comment to Syl about killing Amaram. Syl becomes upset that Kaladin was talking about justice as she was not a Highspren. They way she said that, the only worse insult would have been for Kaladin to call Syl a Voidspren.
Alice & Aubree: Huh. I thought the powers the Heralds had stemmed from the Honorblades, not from themselves. The spren saw the powers that could be generated from the Honorblades and tried to mimc it. Of course, they did not have limitations that the Honorblades had so Ishar created the concept of the Ideals to act as limits on the KRs power.
This raises a question. It may be due in part to my lack of understanding how Investiture works in the Cosmere. I thought the various Surges that the KRs can use are types of Investiture. I had also thought that Investiture had certain fundamental rules that where shaped by the location. These rules were rules of nature. Yet, Ishar was able to place restrictions on how Investiture occurs. Of course, if using Surges is not synonymous with Investiture, what is the difference between Surges and Investiture?
Alice, Lyn & Aubree: IMO, Teft did not want to hold the Honorblade because he knows he is in the throes of his addiction to firemoss. He feels unworthy to hold such an object. As Alice noted, both Kaladin and Dalinar hold the Honorblade. IIRC, Kaladin wondered why he did not her a shriek when he held the Honorblade. Syl told him the Honorblade is not the same as a dead spren Shardblade.
Re about the soldiers holding spheres. The KRs of old did not have this problem since they was always somebody to teach/guide potential recruits as to what was needed. Some people may never have it in them to find the necessary Radiance (to use the Stormfather’s word). But the majority of those who may not have the mental makeup or the necessary intangibles would probably have been weeded out or discouraged by existing KRs. This is another example of the Stormfather not truly understanding humans. As they do not know the proper way, they will try things until they stumble into the correct way.
I wonder. How common is lip reading on Roshar. Jasnah reads lips in OB.
Audree & Alice. Your questions about Amaram got me thinking on a few other related questions. How did Amaram go about contacting Odium in the first place? What happened to the rest of the Sons of Honor? Will they also defect to Odium? It seems unlikely that an organization dedicated to the return to the glory of the Vorin Church would support a race of people who would destroy that Church and kill all humans.
Alice: If your theory about the third Sibling is the spren of the stone, then one place where it could be hiding is in Shinovar.
Thanks for reading my musings.
AndrewHB
aka the musespren
@Gepeto
Scath brought up a very good point regarding Ialai Sadeas and her willingness to listen to any investigators she did not personally appoint. To that end, anyone Dalinar may have picked wouldn’t have soothed or placated her. If he picked a neutral party it could have been argued that Dalinar isn’t really taking the murder of a highprince seriously. He’s not putting his best people to work on the problem. By Dalinar’s reasoning he put the best available person on his team to head up the investigation, that by using his son he’s essentially investigating the crime himself. He was working with a no-win scenario.
The same thing goes for his treatment of Amaram and the Sadeas army. If Amaram was indeed working in good faith then sending the army away would indeed have been effective. The move eases tensions by removing a volitile element from a source of irritation. It gives the leader a chance to rehabilitate his image in the eyes of power. Amaram could have at any time dispelled at least some of the rising tensions, but he thinks Dalinar committed the murder and has no intention of quashing the rumors. He tried to save that fighting force. Amaram worked against him, preying on an undisciplined army’s sense of betrayal to move them to Team Odium. I think the argument hinges on whether one believes that Amaram was willing to work with Dalinar and was rebuffed or if you believe as I do that Amaram returned to Urithiru already in Odium’s pocket. Too bad the Amaram POV’s never made it off the editing room floor so we’ll never truly know. If it gets rid of the human buzzkill, I don’t mind so much.
On the Sibling:
I had a theory that Cusiesch was the 3rd Bondsmith spren but I think it got crushed by WOB hunters on 17th Shard. But the experience had me thinking, where is the spren of water on Roshar? Stormfather obviously governs storm. Nightwatcher is life obviously from her appearance. It makes sense for there to be a spren of Stone seeing as it’s a dominant feature on the planet and considering how often it’s referenced. But what about water? Thaylen is a coastal city. It’s not likely to be the only one. There’s gotta be a bunch of people personifying the massive world ocean. Why does it not get a Megaspren, bigger than the normal Nahel spren but a step below SF/NW as Cusiesch is?
My personal theory is that Bondsmiths had Options. There could only be 3 at a time but they have more to choose from. There could be a generation of Bondsmiths without one of them being bonded to SF or NW. My belief for this lies in the Hessia Mythica’s chapter on Bondsmiths.
[edit]
I interpret that to mean that it was possible yet taboo to have more than 3 candidate spren able to grant Bondsmith abilities. The Sibling could therefore be the group of Megaspren between higher spren and the avatars of Honor and Cultivation.
@45 RogerPavelle
Hmmm, considering other magic systems kinda do some of these things, the potential is certainly there. A cognitive shadow is using investiture to get an imprint of the “soul” and then sticking it to a body to continue to live on after death. Theoretically you could adhere a spren to a person with hemalurgy, though the spren could still choose to leave. Makes me wonder if Dalinar could stick a spren to a person, would the spren be able to leave, or really be “stuck”. LOL that brings a whole new level to the “get along shirt” (i have seen the meme, but some people I know have no idea what that is, so if you want me to explain it, let me know).
@46 Austin
Personally I think the difference between gravitation between the orders might come into play when combined with the other surge. Possibly Windrunners can reach greater speeds by reducing drag using adhesion (pressure), while skybreakers may somehow employ division to affect their gravitation surge. I agree it would be very interesting to see how they differ.
@47 Kooz
Regarding aimians and the soulcasters, not sure I really have much of substance to add in favor or against your theory, but I will say it sounds very interesting and I wish you luck with it!
Regarding Cusicesh, yes there is a WoB saying it is lower in power than the Stormfather and the Nightwatcher. That is one of the big WoBs that lean towards disproving the theory that the sibling is Cusicesh. Personally I think what hurt the Sibling/Cusicesh reduced its power, which is why it is stated to be lesser than the Stormfather and the Nightwatcher. That it needs to be restored. But don’t have anything really to back that up, and right now the place to bet on does seem to be that Cusicesh is not the Sibling. I just can’t let go of the theory that it is lol.
@48 goddessimho
Very interesting way of looking at it! They certainly have paid a very high price. As evidenced by Jezeren and Shallash, they still fear death, so I wonder what peace would look like to them?
@49 CireNaes
LOL. good point. Dalinar is not the most subtle of individuals. That makes me wonder, could Shallan attach an illusion to an honorblade, or would its investiture interfere and prevent it? Then again they could always soulcast something around it, for instance soulcasting a wall to smoke, placing it in the wall, and then soulcast the stone back. Perfect hiding place.
@50 AndrewHB
The two surges stem from the honorblades for the Heralds, but the heralds themselves have abilities that we do not fully know yet. So far the big boon the honorblades used to give, was direct fueling by Honor. So unlimited gravitation, regrowth, transportation, transformation, etc etc etc. They has access to levels of investiture no radiant could ever attain. But now that Honor is shattered, they cannot seem to draw directly anymore. Not exactly sure why yet. Maybe Dalinar can find a way to fix that?
Not sure if this will help explain things, but I will do my best. Investiture is investiture, no matter what form it takes. They can have different “flavors” but at their core they are all the same. Each magic system does have its own “rules” but If you know what you are doing you can bend or in some cases break them. That is what it means to get one form to fuel another (for instance stormlight feeding a certain breath eating individual and object). This is known as “hacking the system”. So potentially Ishar’s power set, coupled with the right knowledge, could allow him to put in certain safe guards. How? No clue lol. Yet. But I will be very interested in learning.
Regarding Amaram, this is all just conjecture on my part, but I have a feeling Odium reached out to him. Odium’s future sight might have also let him know that Amaram would be a potential ally. He did use the Thrill to prepare the rest of Sadeas’s men for years after all. That is a good question about the rest of the Sons of Honor. My instinct says since Amaram was not the leader, only a part of a whole, that it could be very much still be functioning. For some reason I do not think they defected to Odium, but might be an autonomous party acting in its own goals. Perhaps they wish to use the Heralds as figure heads and aim to still bring Vorinism back even if its heart is a lie.
@51: You bring a fair point, but I still think Adolin is too close to Dalinar to be the right choice. It seems doubtful there weren’t anyone more disconnected from Dalinar who could have been picked. Granted, the end result might have been the same, but Adolin is obviously not impartial. Everyone, including Ialai, knew he wanted to fight/kill Sadeas. He just wasn’t the right choice, anyone else would have been preferable.
On the matter of Amaram, I am unable to decide myself. I find we can draft a rational for him turning to Odium after being sent to Thaylenah, after seeing how the Kholins weren’t interested in working with him, after seeing Dalinar be so intend on trialing him when he himself is guilty of much worst (we need to keep in mind Amaram knows the truth about the Rift). On the reverse, we can also draft a rational where Amaram already was in Odium’s pocket when he made his way towards Urithiru. Sadly, without his viewpoints, we are unlikely to find what the truth might have been.
So yeah, I guess you bring valid points: Amaram could have controlled his men better, he could have used the assignment as an opportunity, but instead he let scorn take over. Still, as a reader, I find consequences for actions will need to be broach at some point: characters can keep on killing left and right without retribution merely because they are on Team Kholin, but this is just me speaking. Amaram might have been wrong, he might not have had the right attitude, he might have been a rotten apple, but the Skybreaker in me hates seeing crimes go unpunished even if the culprit is a character I absolutely love.
The “‘Stormfather!’ ‘Yes?'” bit reminds me of History of the World Part 1. “‘I’m here! Jesus!’ ‘Yes?'” ad nauseam.
Carl @14: Which Unmade do you believe can open Honor’s Perpendicularity?
Thanks for reading my musings.
AndrewHB
aka the musespren
Scath @39 looks like you’re getting what I’m saying. I agree that it could be one we’ve never met. Statistically, it’s even probable. It could even be from one of the dead ones since dying didn’t destroy their investiture.
Guessing the commenter Orders:
So we have Gepeto as Skybreaker
Scath as Elsecaller
Andrew seems like a Willshaper to me
CireNeas as Edgedancer, of the ancient variety instead of the Lyft variant
Roger as Dustbringer?
Our re-readers are obviously the 3 Bondsmiths that bring us all together
Birgit is always a solid poster, perfect for the Stonewards
Joyspren as Truthwatcher
Austin as Windrunner for completely random reasons.
I know there’s someone that identifies as a Lightweaver; Brandon is one but the Yolish variant, like Hoid. Otherwise I can’t think of one.
Anybody wanna put on the sorting hat and put me into an Order?
@56 soursavior
Glad I understood correctly. It is an interesting theory. I wish you luck!
@57 EvilMonkey
Not sure if you are artistically inclined, but you could be the lightweaver. Strengthening our morale.
@31 Scath re: Amaram – that seems perfectly possible. I tend to give Amaram less credit – I think at root he was probably always about power. But maybe. I just wish think it was unclear.
@Gepeto – yes, I’ve also seen those statements from Brandon that he had to cut pieces of Amaram’s journey. And honestly, I think Brandon made the right call. I despise Amaram and I’m happy not to have to stomach more of him. So on the one hand, I’m acknowledging that Brandon’s right – Amaram’s internal journey is missing; and yet, Brandon’s also right that it was better to cut that than something else.
I’m sure Brandon’s comforted to know that I approve of his decisions. ;) (self-deprecating attempted humor)
Soursavior, Re: the Sibling – have fun with the speculation about the other 13 Shards, but 1. I doubt Brandon will introduce another Shard into Stormlight – though who really knows?? And 2. The only way the Sibling makes sense to me as a sibling to the Stormfather and Nightwatcher is if they have similar “parents” and Honor and Cultivation seem the only real candidates. Although I guess the parent could be Adonalsium, and then your theory could be worked in…
@leatherkiwi
We know they do, if you consider “never dying” a power. (I do.)
@Scáth
Cognitive shadows are not always attached to a body. Warning: Cosmere spoilers follow, since at least one commenter wants to skip those.
The Shades in the Forests of Hell are (unusual) Cognitive Shadows. Kelsier after the Lord Ruler kills him in Secret History is a Cognitive Shadow.
@AndrewHB
Ba-Ado-Mishram could supply voidlight during the False Desolation. By analogy to Dalinar opening Honor’s perpendicularity to supply Stormlight, I’m assuming she was opening a Perpendicularity sourced in Odium. Obviously we know almost nothing about her and this is educated speculation.
Consider the meaning of the word “sibling”. It pretty much has to be a splinter of the combined power of Honor and Cultivation to be a brother/sister of both the Stormfather and Nightwatcher. Think about it. There’s a WoB that Shards can have kids (together), by the way.
EDIT: wrote that last paragraph before reading chaplainchris1’s last paragraph in the previous message.
@60 Carl re: the Sibling and writing your comment before you read mine…your comment is clearer anyway. :) But yes, that’s what I was trying to say.
@57: Yep, I would definitely be a Skybreaker though I do not approve of Nale’s leadership. I strongly believe in a state of laws where laws are being applied to all people, no matter their rank, their status nor their connection, as fairly as possible.
It is why I struggle with the concept of “one individual can kill/murder/burn as many people as he/she wants, if he/she takes ownership of those actions, he/she is allowed a redemption without ever facing real tangible consequences for his/her actions”. This is worth for all characters, the ones I like just as the ones I like less, but as always, this is a difficult stand to defend.
As for you, Stoneward? You always have many comments on how military structure works and what it means to be a military leader? I like the Lightweaver suggestion too. How to you feel about creating an alternate you?
@59: I guess we all have our personal opinions on this one. I would have personally traded some of the interludes for Amaram’s viewpoints. I would have also cut down within some the main characters narratives too as I do feel Amaram’s inner viewpoints, no matter how distasteful, would have made a superior narrative by wrapping on his arc in a more satisfying manner. Also, Oathbringer definitely lacked a good villain, someone to root against, something more palpable than Odium who, quite frankly, hasn’t been all that terrifying. Yet.
Bottom line is I feel and unexplained character’s motivations harms the narrative more than cutting down on some of the more important characters scenes, but YMMV. In fact, I would have just taken Amaram as a sporadic viewpoint characters within the scenes he shares with other characters.
Bah, I am sure Brandon wrestled with the idea and probably still thinks it would have been nice to have them, but he’d rather not cut within the other scenes. I would have preferred if he had, but hey, not my book, it is his. Still, I always enjoy trying to figure out how the narrative would have flown had a few things been written differently or from other character’s perspective. It often happens I wonder about characters other than the big three perspectives as we get theirs so often, their thoughts hardly come out as surprises anymore.
EvilMonkey@51 I had the same thought about Amaram having gone over to Odium before he arrived a Urithiru. His behavior with Jasnah and the instant rage at being rebuffed, shows a drastic change of temperament…
As for the Sibling, I have a sneaky suspicion Brandon hasn’t introduced us yet… Of the stone seems to be a good guess, doesn’t Rock mention something ?
@several regarding the sibling being a mix of honor and cultivation. You’re probably right. It makes sense that the sibling would be closely related to both Stormy and Night. (Side theory, for if the Cosmere was ruled by puns, the sibling could be a spren of “dark” to give us dark stormy night.) A point against my theory is that according to a WoB I just found (while trying to find the opposite), Honor made Stormfather personally. So the idea that the three siblings were all made by Adonalsium is taking on water faster than I can bail it out.
@64 – Honor did not make the Stormfather. He did, however, somehow combine his cognitive shadow with the Stormfather. Though I never really understood that whole thing.
@65 Austin: if you’re right, I’m back in the game. However, the top result I got searching “honor stormfather” is below.
Questioner
The Stormfather.
Brandon Sanderson
The Stormfather is technically a Splinter of Honor, but it was an intentional Splinter, that Honor did himself.
Questioner
Does he have another Splinter?
Brandon Sanderson
So, all of the honorspren are Splinters of Honor, but this is a different situation because he actually did this intentionally.
@66 – Ah, ok. That seems pretty definitive. I guess the reason I assumed the Stormfather was around before Honor was because Brandon said the highstorms predate the shattering. And I think he said there were some spren before as well, though I will have to look at the WoBs again.
@67 I thought that for the exact same reasons. I guess before Honor set up shop, the storm just wasn’t personified. I also remember seeing multiple WoB that spren in Roshar predate the shattering.
Edited to add this WoB that supports us both.
Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)
They are not, because they have not attained self-awareness. But, the Seons are self-aware. So, any piece, for instance there were some spren on Roshar before Honor and Cultivation got there. Those were already Splinters of Adonalsium where he had left power which attained sentience on its own. So, it can be intentional is what I am saying, does that make sense? You have seen other splinters.
@68 – Well, at the very least, the Stormfather was around for a long time before Honor died and merged his cognitive shadow with him. I wonder if Honor created the Stormfather for that very purpose? The “break glass in case of emergency” option?
Why do you say there patterns in stone at Urithiru are unique? Kharbranth has the same swirls and patterns and I believe the wind blades are described that way too….
Also, I am not sure how @@.-@ Carl’s speculation about the relative placement of Mormon’s in Christendom falls within community standards
@57 Evil Monkey
Why Dustbringer? I’m not clear enough on what they do or why they do that, so I’m curious.
Has anyone ever asked Brandon about Odium’s Perpendicularity? He’s been in-system long enough to have one. It’s probably on Braize or at least it used to be, before the Everstorm.
I never thought of myself as a Stoneward but I can dig it. I believe I’m honest enough with myself to be a Lightweaver but I would like some of that Spiritual Realm Connection so that I could draw the pictures that float around in my head.
Stormfather is such an unreliable narrator, and that’s a shame since he was a witness to every major event on Roshar. But Spren don’t think like humans and for the longest time he didn’t have the sapience that comes with the Nahel bond. One has to take all his statements with a grain of salt. He ain’t as bad as the insane Heralds though and to be fair, as Dalinar gains power SF will become less unreliable.
For characters getting their comeuppance, if someone does wrong but isn’t breaking any laws, what’s a Skybreaker to do? I’m of course speaking of Dalinar. He did horrible things but Roshar has nothing like a Geneva Convention. He didn’t break any rules, yet he was ruthless. Then again so was the Prison warden Szeth killed. He was safe from Skybreakers until he broke the law. If Dalinar were to get a tap on the shoulder, it’s more likely a Windrunner that would be delivering the bill.
EvilMonkey @57.
I am an Elsecaller. I am a firm believer in the ends justify the means. Brandon has said the Elsecallers would accept that outlook. Plus, I love the concept of being able to instantly move from location to location. In effect, my own oathgate whenever I needed it and to wherever I wanted to go.
Thanks for reading my musings.
AndrewHB
aka the musespren
@73 Evil Monkey
I’m not sure how unreliable a narrator the Stormfather is. For instance, I don’t think he will ever tell a lie (such would be dishonorable), so everything that he does state will have truth to it. The problem comes in interpreting those truths within the context of the Stormfather’s perception and not knowing what details might have been omitted “for our own good.”
As for which KR I’d be, I don’t know enough about Dustbringers to say anything on them. In a lot of ways, I’d say I’m closer to Lightweaver. I love writing with light (photography), finding patterns and solving puzzles (so I’d get along well with a Cryptic). And, in terms of the reread, I’m a lurker/spy who tries to see what people are saying and then distilling things down to an essential question that can spur debate or unravel a tangled web.
@@@@@ Roger
I said Dustbringer for you because I get the impression from your post that you’re all about the deconstruction, taking things apart to see how they work. These are of course my opinion of how you would fit if for some crazy reason you were transported to a fictional world. Feel free to disagree, I was just having a little fun.
Stormfather isn’t unreliable because he tells lies. He’s unreliable because his thought process is alien. He’s not paying attention to the same things a human would so his interpretation of events is going to look way different than if Joe Blow were the witness. As his understanding of humanity strengthens in line with Dalinar’s Oaths he becomes much better at seeing things a human would find important, but it’s likely never going to be a perfect fit. I’m not saying that’s a bad thing. The Nahel bond should complement, not make identical.
@@@@@ Andrew
Elsecaller it is then. Strange that more people don’t identify as Windrunner considering Kaladin is a favorite character for much of the fandom. By the way, based on my comments what order would you slot me into?
@76
No problem. I’m not even disagreeing with what you wrote above. I was interpreting that same interest as more related to Cryptics, hence Lightweaver.
I would like to think I’d be an Edgedancer — the order of compassion, of growing and healing, of caring for and about the ignored and forgotten, of remarkable physical feats. (Also, Lift is The Best Ever). But I don’t know if I can truly say that’s what I’ve been doing with my life. I relate to the Lightweaver feats of memory and artistry (but with words more than images), scholarship and exploration, lurking and pretending.
#71, @tommy:
Sorry if I offended you. Note that I’m not criticizing by my comments about the LDS Church (in that message). I am not a religious person and the relationships of various movements is interesting but not a value judgment for me. I just happen to think of the LDS Church and its branches as distant from the Pauline[1] movement.
Since people are joining Radiant Orders here, let me say that I don’t identify with any of them. I’m not a brave explorer, inspirational liar/truthteller, savior of the downtrodden, etc. I suspect that if anything Investiture-related I’d be an artifabrian … and yes, I do happen to identify with Navani quite a bit, as a matter of fact. Not in personality but in interests. I have a couple of science degrees and have spent much of my life working with engineers, so that relates.
I’m looking forward to (my prediction) artifabrianism being a much bigger factor in the Back Five. And dying before I read most of it, of course.
[1]Reference to Poul Anderson’s Operation Chaos, and also a wonderful self-referential pun on the esteemed Mr. Anderson’s part.
@76: You’re a Windrunner monkey. And a thumping good one at that, I’d wager. Once you train up a little. ;)
Hot damn! Someone done made me a Windrunner! Seriously though, a fun diversion for the week I think.
I really do hope we get the Sib in RoW. It’s been a hanging thread for so long and I for one wanna see if my theory panned out. As for how the family dynamics could work, I can imagine Honor and Cultivation getting married but each one had a kid when they met. Honor’s son was Stormfather, Cultivation’s daughter was the Nightwatcher. Kinda like the Brady Bunch only they had more kids when they got together. Thought exercise only, not proposing that it actually happened that way.
@73: What’s a Skybreaker to do if someone is guilty of morally debatable actions without actually going against any written laws? I think you have provided the answer yourself: there are times when some actions are so horrific, the need for additional laws arrise such as what happened after the Nuremberg process.
I do think what Dalinar did at the Rift could be one of those instances, one of those events which inspires the writing of additional laws to further protect the population. Had Gavilar been half the man he claimed to be, he wouldn’t have hidden the truth, he wouldn’t have lied. Instead, he would have taken action to prevent retribution going against what is expected through normal warfare to happen ever again. He’d trialed his own brother, weighting in the aggravating factors with the non-aggravating ones, and have an impartial jury reach a decision. Ultimate punishment may not have been life imprisonment nor execution due to the non-aggravating factors which surrounds Dalinar’s actions, but at least, justice would have spoken.
Instead, Gavilar took the easy way out. He lied. He hid the truth. He camouflaged it. He flipped the blame towards the death who’d never be able to speak their side of the story. He might have done it because he felt Dalinar’s actions created a dangerous precedent for his rule, but his actions were cowardly and dishonorable. Dalinar, at least, is now trying to rectify it.
Now, I don’t know if the Skybreakers are able to be the agents revolving around the writing of new laws or if they are mere puppets of existing ones, but I like to believe someone who yearns to live in a state of law would be able to do this mental processing.
On Radiant Orders: There is an online testing for anyone interested in trying it. When I first did it, I got Skybreaker and, well, I wasn’t happy. After all, who wants to be sorted into the one order who’s “evil” and “fighting with the enemy”? Upon additional thoughts, I have decided the Skybreakers could be so much more than what Nale has reduced them to be. They aren’t evil, but they currently have bad leadership.
I love laws, I love the legal system and I have a strong faith in it. It does bother me how there seem to never be any legal retribution for our main characters be them Dalinar or Adolin. Crimes should be punish according to the written laws and the fact a man might have deserved to be killed shouldn’t exonerate the culprit from facing the law. That’s the whole point, you break the law, you have repercussions. If the law is unable to protect the people because of a loop hole (Sadeas at the Tower), then the law needs to be re-written.
Those last sentences have been the topic of many movies… How justified are you for killing XYZ? What bothers me in SA is not so much the absence of consequences, it is the absence of judgment all together. Dalinar was Gavilar’s brother, he was never going to be help accountable for his actions. Adolin is Dalinar’s son, he is never going to be trialed for the murder of a Highprince.
So… more Skybreaker please? Let’s bring balance back. Actions have consequences.
Someone should ask Brandon to release the Amaram chapters.
@83: I don’t think he wrote them… I think he planned on writing them, but chose against it early on, during the outline process.
Whew so a lot to catch up on. I will do my best! Here we go lol
@59 chaplainchris1
Honestly I think as we get into the new book, and perhaps learn more about the Sons of Honor, I think we will learn more about what happened with Amaram. I would not be surprised to find Jasnah having investigated it thoroughly to ensure there weren’t any further state secrets compromised due to his presence at meetings. Finding out when he defected would be very important for national security.
@60 Carl
True not all trees are birch, but all birch trees are in fact trees. So yes not all cognitive shadows get attached to a body (though we do not fully know how shades work), but that does not preclude it from happening/being possible, and thereby potentially possible in other ways.
@63 snaggletoothedwoman
I agree :)
@74 AndrewHB
Elsecaller FTW! That coupled with being able to transform anything is just pure epicness for me lol.
@79 Carl
Well Sanderson has confirmed Roshar is definitely going into the direction of magitech, so I am sure your ghost will greatly enjoy Roshar’s future lol. (I hope that joke is not taken in poor taste, and if so, I apologize ahead of time)
Maybe in one of these books we’ll get to see a person chosen for one Order but thinks they belong in another. For instance, say I always wanted to be a Releaser. I like taking things apart and I really wanna make rocks burn. Despite my desires though, an Honorspen comes recruiting me. My hands start sticking to cups and arrows get attracted to my hand or that wooden bench I just touched instead of my face. Do I reject the bond before it forms because I don’t see myself as a Windrunner or do I trust the spren that saw my protection potential?
@86 EvilMonkey
Didn’t that sort of happen in the epigraphs? There was a guy that thought he was fit for the lightweavers and got frustrated that he couldn’t progress, and it was the opinion of the writer of that epigraph that the reason was because that individual did not possess the levels of self reflection required to progress in the order. Though in that instance we do not know if he was bonding another spren in the process.
Hmmm, as I typed that I had another idea. Kaladin continually rejected Syl and the idea of him becoming a windrunner/radiant, yet he still progressed in oaths as he faced himself and grew. So I think it would be very possible to want to be in one order, but end up bonding another order. Especially when individual spren from the same order can act and look for different things in a bonde.
@57
Which commenters would be classified as Unmade?
#88, @Gaz: Voidspren, maybe. “Unmade” is a few specific people/things, you’d be asking the commenter to become a particular character (as opposed to joining a fictional society).
You’re asking me which of us commenters I consider to be a handmaiden of hatred? Maybe on reddit where the trolls come out in force. On these boards? Not so much.
Just read an interesting point. Ialai says Amaram was resting up after being caught in a storm on the way to Urithiru. Maybe that is when Odium reached out and contacted Amaram? I need to check the book to make sure of the wording, but would be cool if that moment was snuck in like that.
@91 Scath Do you mean this scene (Ob, ch. 22):
It indeed is strange that he was out in the storm. He stayed behind when Dalinar went to seek out the center of the Shattered Plains. Why should Amaram get caught in a Storm?
But still.. I hope for more information. I really missed an Amaram POV in OB. Him turning cloak was somewhat unexpected for me.
@bird, I think @Scath’s point is that Odium, like Honor’s shadow, can only talk to people during storms, either High or Ever. Honor’s visions appear during Highstorms. That’s also when Odium talks to both Dalinar and Taravangian privately, and when he appears during the battle of Thaylen City. And as I think, that’s also the case with Venli, she meets him during a storm. We know that the two storms involve bringing the three Realms closer together, making it easier to communicate from the Spiritual (where Shards mostly exist) to the Physical.
It looks like Cultivation doesn’t work through storms, since she talks to Dalinar on a normal day. (We don’t know, as far as I remember, when she spoke to Lift.) Dalinar remarks on the resemblance between Honor and Odium, and he’s pretty perceptive by this point of the narrative, they may actually be quite similar and work in similar ways.
@86: I always thought Elhokar would be this character. I never felt he “belonged” as a Radiant and liked the idea he’d be an example of a failed Nahel Bond. Turns out Brandon had other plans for him, which I liked, but prior to OB, this was one of my theories.
I still think it’d be interesting to see one character not being able to progress within a given order, not being able to keep the oaths and, well, wanting out. None of the currently existing characters seem to fit though.
@90: This re-read is about the most civilised place to discuss Oathbringer within the fandom. We are all able to share our thoughts, whether we agree or disagree, in a polite respectful way. We had some… bumps but nothing which compares to elsewhere, as you pointed it out.
Take the missing Amaram chapters. Some of us are saying they wished Brandon had include them because they feel his character arc is incomplete and lacks context. Usually, they would be willing to cut down elsewhere for them. Others are saying they are pleased with Brandon’s decision and if they agree they would have been nice, they aren’t willing to sacrifice any other narrative elements to get them. Both opinions can co-exist without anyone seeing fit to attack others nor tear their shirt over it.
No one is accusing anyone of having an opinion they don’t like. Everyone is trying to supplement his/her opinion with arguments, trying to explain it to the best of his/her ability. No one is jumping in the fray accusing other people’s opinions to be invalid while whining their own opinion is not getting enough spotlight. No one is crying because their opinion is not shared about as many people as they liked to.
Those are all behaviors I have seen in places such as Reddit or the 17th Shard.
So if we are Unmades, we are a new kind of Unmades… Probably the tea sipping ones.
@92 Bird
Yep that is the scene I was referring to. I believe the scene at the end of Words of Radiance shows Amaram picking up Taln, and then later while in a carriage preparing to travel to Urithiru (while the warcamps were emptying from Dalinar’s proclamation about the newly discovered tower) he was writing a letter to Restares that they succeeded and he is off to see the tower for himself. So he would need to travel from the warcamps to the oathgate to get to Urithiru. What I read posited that the storm he was caught out in was the Everstorm, and potentially Odium made contact. So theoretically Amaram could have switched sides since before he even got to Urithiru.
To clarify, (not that you are saying this but I like to cover my bases), I was not stating this was a reason to include or not include Amaram scenes to show his changing to the other side. Just throwing out a loose theory on when he could have potentially switched. Thought it would be slick of Brandon if that was the case. To so casually hide the hint in plain sight.
@93 Carl
Good point that it could be during High or Ever regarding Dalinar’s visions. That would give Amaram an even better cover for no one to suspect he was talking to the other side. If it was during an Everstorm, one could wonder why his caravan or his carriage in particular was left largely unscathed, but if it was during a highstorm, then it could just be written off as lucky.
Hmmm, regarding Cultivation, could it be because Dalinar traveled to the Valley where potentially her power is centered? I know there is a shardpool in the horneater peaks, and that the highstorm is theoretically a moving perpendicularity, but Brandon did say Shards can have multiple shard pools. I am going to dig for that WoB because that is off a hazy recollection so I just want to be sure. So maybe Cultivation hangs out there in particular, so that is how she communicates with Dalinar, while Odium being off planet requires the storm, and Honor’s cognitive shadow connected with the Stormfather is why he requires the highstorms to initially communicate. Then once Dalinar bonded him, that is why he could communicate with the stormfather freely, and gain greater control over the visions. Interesting thoughts!
@Gepeto
i think the higher orders of skybreakers would be able to make laws . Nale seems to say as much to szeth at the end of chapter 106…. (and the skybreakers speak of it on page 867). To me that sounds like the 5th ideal gives you the ability to define laws and order of importance of them.
Re:dustbringers
i tended to think of them as radiant equivalent of Someone who puts down rabid dogs. Its not the dogs fault it has rabies, you can grieve for the dog, and if its your dog, you arent going to really have much good will towards the one who euthanizes it, but its still something that must be done.
i was rather disappointed with malata as our dustbringer representative. Prior to OB, i would have considered the dustbringers to consider taravangians plan inimical to
::facepalm:: Gah! lost part of my post due to a connection error….
continuing on…. Prior to OB, I would have thought the dustbringers would have considered taravangions plan inimical to life on roshar. Instead it appears they’ve decided humans are inimical to roshar…?
I was disappointed with Malata as our representative of the order. I was hoping to have someone who could cast their order in a more positive light given all the negative press it gets in the epigraphs. Malata and her spren struck me as less about cutting out something dangerous as about having an excuse to break things.
94. Gepeto Tea-sipping Unmade. I like it! =D
95. Scáth Yea. This scene is inconclusive and only allows theorizing–which is fine with me! As you probably already guessed, I am one of those who wished for more insights on Amaram. Thus, I really appreciated that you brought up this scene. Even in my reread I was much too focused on Mraize during this whole “visiting Ialai”-thing. I need to focus more on Amaram to get possible hints like that, but even in my reread he was just not present enough in my mind. That’s why I like it when people fling out random theories as they help me getting new ideas, which in turn makes reading even more fun.
93. Carl The similarities between Odium and Honor are an interesting aspect. And you are right, Cultivation seems to work differently. Ah… she is still such a mystery…
@96 Slaybalj
Regarding Releasers, interesting thoughts. We do have comments from Brandon that they live in more of a “grey area” (quotes to denote loose definition, not quoting the WoB directly as using that term) so I could see how they could potentially work that way. We do also have confirmation we will be meeting a new Releaser in the next book, so be excited! We get to see how another person would act within that order!
@98 bird
No problemo. I would have never thought of that scene had someone else not brought it up elsewhere. On my original read, I gave it no thought, but now in light of him switching sides, it does take on a potential nefarious light. I had begun a re-read of the stormlight archive all the way from the beginning of Way of Kings, so now I definitely look forward to reaching Oathbringer and looking more closely at Amaram and his actions in that potential light :)
The Dustbringers “taking things apart to see how they work” remind me of Saruman who breaks white light into a rainbow or CERN nuclear physicists smashing particles to see what they are made of.
@91 Scath (and thanks @92 Bird for finding the quote)
Nice spotting and I like that theory! Makes me want to reread all the Amaram bits– what little we get of it– to see if there are any other clues. I am definitely one of those who wanted more insight into Amaram. Though I might have to wait until I lap myself on a reread. I just finished Warbreaker for the first time, and of course went straight into a WoR reread right after, via audiobook. I am only up to “Boots”– which would have been relevant here last chapter– but Amaram has arrived on the Shattered Plains and is all buddy-buddy with Dalinar. I’m going to try to pay attention to what he is up to. I have to wonder if the rumors of Dalinar’s madness is part of what drew him there– Gavilar had the visions, and the Sons of Honor must be curious about what’s up with Dalinar.
@100 birgit
Yeah, count me as one of the people who theorize the “taking things apart” could apply to an engineer or scientist.
@101 nightheron
Me too! Good point. I assumed on the first read that Amaram just went to the Shattered Plains because he had shardplate so he could join the movers and shakers out there, but you make a good point that by being a member of the Sons of Honor, he could have gone with ulterior motives. Perhaps the Sons of Honor wanted to bring Dalinar to their side as the Blackthorn like the Diagram stated Taravangian should attempt for his side.
Folks have noticed that two of the three Windrunner Knights can also talk to the Stormfather via the Spiritual Realm, from great distances? It’s literally the first thing Lopen does when he takes the Second Oath. The Windrunners and only known Bondsmith share more than just a Surge.
(We also see Kaladin forging some really important bonds, with what is pretty clearly Spiritual Adhesion even if it won’t be called that during the story.)
@103 Carl
Who is he forming these bonds with?
@telema: Most obviously, he forms and leads Bridge Four. Leadership is a function of both the Bondsmiths and Windrunners. (The Herald who led the Windrunners was Jezrien, whose first attribute is “King”.)
Brandon is often very subtle and rarely in a hurry to get to the final reveal.
@99 :
I am really excited to read a new Dustbringer (they will always be dustbringers to me… it fits the format used for every other order in the KR). And if engineering is their thing, then I can totally see Navani as one…. though I do cringe internally at having yet another KR related to Dalinar. I think one of the reasons I never really saw them as such is because of the chaper 36 epigraph:
I can’t imagine common folk lumping engineers with voidbringers.
In any event, having more representatives of a given order is so enlightening. It gives us more of a chance to see what is essential to the order and what is variable within it.
@106 slaybalj
Glad I could help build your hype for book 4! I agree regarding Navani! I came to that conclusion too. The only shame, is there was a WoB that as of Way of Kings (if i recall correctly), we have not see a PoV of a Releaser to be. Since we have a PoV of Navani in it, it is the general consensus that she will not be one. But I am still hopeful! I think the prevailing theory is that Shallash will become the next Releaser, so we may get a very interesting development regarding a herald potentially swearing into an order that was not her own. As to that quote, good point, though I think depending on the era and technological advances of the people at the time that was written would affect how they viewed the members of the order. We know in “present day” surgeons in outlying villages are seen with suspicion because they look inside people’s bodies where “only the Almighty should see”. So engineers creating mechanisms that are seemingly “magical” and should only be relegated to the Almighty and his heralds could be viewed with suspicion and distrust. Finally, not all members of a radiant order have to fall into a certain category. For instance, Brandon has said that a military commander that thinks carefully over his battle plans before acting would attract an elsecaller spren. It does not always have to be scholars. Wyndle originally wanted to bond an elderly gardener. Something tells me she would not be lethal and dancing on the edge of a wire as much as the rest of her order. Syl’s last bondee was also an elderly man who unfortunately did not last very long and was killed. Finally Jasnah has said not all radiants need to be in battle. I initially assumed that the scholary orders would not, while the more combat focused would, but Jasnah, Shallan, and Renarin all disproved that at the battle of Thayla. So it seems to me that taking part in battle (for example Rock) is an individual’s choice, not based on the order you belong to. So I could see an engineer being a member, a surgeon, a scholar, and so on. I whole heartily agree, I cannot wait to meet new members, and learn more of their powers!
We mainly see fighters because the focus is on Alethi. Stump isn’t a fighter, and the shoemaker wasn’t, either.
Following Gepeto’s suggestion I went online to find a “find your order” quiz. As I’m a scientist, I kind of expected to find Jasna’s order (elsecaller). But to my surprise the result with the highest percentage turned out to be a bondsmith with elsecaller being the second.
It’s interesting that this innocent little test made me think more about my personality and made me realize that yes I do have much leadership skills that I had not fully realized before.
Gepeto, regarding your Skybreaker love, did you read Wheel of Time? I wonder how you feel about the Children of the Light and Galad’s character. I actually have some sympathy and see the potential there.
I’m a person who likes order, rules, fairness, consistency. But I also would like to think I adhere to a higher standard that is still a ‘standard’ or law (think natural law) but not necessarily the same as manmade law. So I actually really do feel the tension between the ‘windrunner’ and ‘skybreaker’ tenets. On one hand, I sometimes find ‘the ends justify the means’ to be one of the most terrifying ideologies possible. On the other, this is not to say there aren’t times where I’ve felt it applies (especially in incidents where you do need to bend/break the rules in pursuit of some higher good) – it’s just that taken to its logical end, it seems to be used to justify all manner of things if somebody deems the ‘end’ a sufficient good. Even though the ‘logical’ part of me is often tempted to think of things like ‘the most good for the most people’, the other part of me rails against things that allow you to use that to ignore the personhood of individual people. But hopefully I never find myself in a position like that…honestly, Kaladin’s complete paralysis is something I totally identified with. But I really, really like the idea of the Edgedancers as well (although I don’t know my personality really fits), and as a science-y type who likes to dig into things, I could see being a Releaser, if that’s really what it entails.
As for Amaram, maybe somebody should ask Brandon if they ever get a chance during a signing. Honestly, in some ways I can imagine the emotions that would have led up to it. I have dealt with being dissillusioned with groups when their ideals weren’t as lofty as I thought, and it can at times cause a great deal of doubt, resentment, anger, etc. This doesn’t mean I then went out and just joined hte opposite group or then abandoned the ideals that I was trying to aspire to, but there can be a sense of ‘well if they’re wrong about that, maybe they’re wrong about everything’ so I can kind of see how that would lead to Amaram going from Vorinist to wanting to tear it all down. Thing is, we already know that even pre-Odium, he wasn’t a great person so perhaps wasn’t really in it for the ‘ideals’ (although perhaps he told himself he was. Maybe he just told himself the end justified the means.) so, he might have been ripe picking for Odium anyway as Odium is great at getting people to justify things like that and to kind of revel in their pain. By that point it might not even have mattered to him what the ‘right’ side was.
Oh, and speaking of the Heralds – I checked the Coppermind and it didn’t have any definitive answer on this – do we know where the Heralds got their power (outside of what the honorblades provide)? Was it just something else they were granted when they entered into the Oathpact?
@Lisamarie, we know almost nothing about the Heralds pre-Oathpact. Ash refers to Adonalsium at one point, which seems to indicate she’s older than humanity on Roshar, maybe even older than the Shattering, but who knows?