Welcome back to the Oathbringer reread, wherein I rearrange all the things and get out of order here. Rather than tackling Dalinar’s Rathalas flashbacks this week, we’re going to examine the gemstone archive epigraphs en masse, and see what we can learn—about the Orders, about the history, about the spren, and about Urithiru.
Reminder: We’ll potentially be discussing spoilers for the entire novel in each reread. There are no Cosmere spoilers in the post this week, but if you haven’t read ALL of Oathbringer, best to wait to join us until you’re done.
As I noted in the comments to Chapter 74, we decided at the last minute not to tackle Chapters 75 and 76 this week. Lyndsey is exhausted from Anime Boston last weekend, and Aubree is swamped with preparation for JordanCon next weekend. Rather than taking it solo, I firmly believe that the discussion will be much better if they can participate; besides, they both really want to talk about that particular episode, and I just can’t deprive them of it. As a replacement, then, we’re going to jump ahead to the epigraphs discussion for Part Three.
Recap
WHO: The Knights Radiant of old
WHERE: Urithiru library
WHEN: Approximately 1,500 years ago (give or take a few hundred), shortly before leaving Urithiru and a few decades before the Recreance.
As you may remember, Renarin discovered the existence of the gemstone archive in Urithiru’s basement library back in Chapter 53:
Renarin stood near the far wall, which was covered in palm-size tiles. He tapped a specific one, and somehow made it pop out, like a drawer. … Renarin glanced at them, then held up what he’d found in the small drawer. A ruby, long as Jasnah’s thumb, cut into a strange shape with holes drilled in it.
Navani’s evaluation of the gemstone, after determining that it couldn’t be a fabrial, was thus:
“So many imperfections in the cut,” Navani said. “That will cause it to lose Stormlight quickly. It won’t even hold a charge for a day, I bet. And it will vibrate something fierce.”
Trying to figure out its purpose, Jasnah’s contribution was next:
Jasnah touched it, infusing the gemstone with Stormlight. It started glowing, but not nearly as brightly as it should have. Navani was, of course, right. It vibrated as Stormlight curled off it. Why would anyone spoil a gem with such a twisted cut, and why hide it?
Shallan and Pattern were the ones to identify the purpose, though:
“Storms,” Shallan whispered as other scholars crowded around. “That’s a pattern.”
“A pattern?”
“Buzzes in sequence…” Shallan said. “My spren says he thinks this is a code. Letters?”
And finally, Renarin put it together:
“Music of language,” Renarin whispered. …
Drawers slid open, one behind each white tile. A hundred, two hundred… each revealing gemstones inside.
Back during the beta read, we were very, very excited about this find. One of the more interesting speculations, which hasn’t been resolved either way, was Bob’s suggestion that Renarin’s ability to sense the gemstones may have been the Truthwatcher use of Illumination—Light, Sound and Waveforms. “Shallan can manipulate them. Renarin can sense them.” I don’t know if that’s true, but I love the idea.
So they found this amazing archive… and then (in the beta) we didn’t hear any more about it. All through Part Three, nothing. Finally in Part Four, there was a brief scene in which we saw a large team working on translating the records, and what little we learned was that it seemed to be a lot of personal histories and journal entries. Deana was about ready to blow something up if we didn’t learn more about it. Being an archivist and historian herself, I suspect it was particularly galling to know that the library existed, and then not get any information from it, though she wasn’t the only one frustrated by that lack. It wasn’t until we received the gamma version that we finally learned any details: They were quoted in the epigraphs, and we all laughed. Let’s go take a look!
Rather than going in chapter sequence, for this purpose I’m going to deal with the recordings grouped by Order, just in case that seems to bring out anything interesting. Let’s start with the first Order we met and go clockwise around the Double Eye:
Windrunners
Today, I leaped from the tower for the last time. I felt the wind dance around me as I fell all the way along the eastern side, past the tower, and to the foothills below. I’m going to miss that.
—From drawer 10-1, sapphire (Chapter 74)
This first one doesn’t seem to have much significance beyond telling us that the departure of the Knights Radiant from Urithiru was imminent. It does give a glimpse into the mentality of an established, trained Windrunner, though; can you imagine how delightful it would have been to do this as a regular thing? And sure, you can jump off of any cliff (if you’re a Windrunner), but I think Urithiru would have been a special one—partly because not too many cliff faces are that tall and sheer, but mostly… I think it’s home for them.
My spren claims that recording this will be good for me, so here I go. Everyone says I will swear the Fourth Ideal soon, and in so doing, earn my armor. I simply don’t think that I can. Am I not supposed to want to help people?
—From drawer 10-12, sapphire (Chapter 86)
This recording tells us emphatically that, at least for Windrunners, living Shardplate comes with the Fourth Ideal—that ever-elusive Fourth Ideal, about which every reader has a theory. It also tells us that Kaladin is not the first of his Order to struggle with the demands it will make of him. “Am I not supposed to want to help people?” The implication is that some aspect of the Ideal places a limit on who he is supposed to help. That doesn’t really tell us much, though. Who is he supposed to be willing to not help? Those who don’t want his help? Those who are out of reach? Those who are on the “other side” from whoever he’s currently allied with? So many possibilities…
Skybreakers
We can record any secret we wish, and leave it here? How do we know that they’ll be discovered? Well, I don’t care. Record that then.
—From drawer 2-3, smokestone (Chapter 61)
The first fits with my personal perception of the attitude of the Skybreakers toward everyone else: a little arrogant, a little contemptuous, a little defiant. This impression may be completely wrong. We don’t know what “I don’t care” means in context, because we have no context. I don’t care that we’re leaving? I don’t care if anyone ever finds this? I don’t care about recording secrets? Whatever it is, he was clearly expected to care about it, and he (at least overtly) refuses to care.
I wish to submit my formal protest at the idea of abandoning the tower. This is an extreme step, taken brashly.
—From drawer 2-22, smokestone (Chapter 62)
Worded like a lawyer, which fits with the Skybreaker role, it really makes me wonder about this character… but there’s just not enough basis for speculation. What isn’t clear about the character is made up by what it tells us about the Knights Radiant: They were not all in agreement about leaving, though they were all apparently bound to obey whoever made the decision to leave. It sounds way too much like politics up in here.
This generation has had only one Bondsmith, and some blame the divisions among us upon this fact. The true problem is far deeper. I believe that Honor himself is changing.
—From drawer 24-18, smokestone (Chapter 67)
This seems oddly insightful for a Skybreaker, which may just mean that my perception of Skybreakers is off. In the role of Judge, I guess I just don’t expect them to be philosophers or theologians. This one, however, seems to have realized that something is going wrong with Honor; it seems reasonable that this is during the middle of the splintering, when Honor hadn’t yet lost all control, but was definitely starting to fracture. We’re told elsewhere that the revelations of the Eila Stele were not unique to 1174 or the Recreance, but that before, Honor was always there to walk (or talk) them through it. It’s interesting that the Skybreaker here is seeing abnormal divisions among the Knights Radiant, and ties it to changes in the Shard, which has always been their guide.
Dustbringers
If this is to be permanent, then I wish to leave record of my husband and children. Wzmal, as good a man as any woman could dream of loving. Kmakra and Molinar, the true gemstones of my life.
—From drawer 12-15, ruby (Chapter 59)
This is so unexpected, given what little we knew of Dustbringers prior to this. I, at least, always had an impression of a destructive bent, along with a certain amount of hostility. That can be blamed partly on the in-world “Words of Radiance,” which doesn’t speak flatteringly of the Order, and partly on Malata, who seriously came across as a vindictive sort. Her spren doesn’t exactly help, since Ash is deeply resentful of humans and of Honor, and takes great delight in breaking things.
All that said, the other point to make from this recording is that the Radiants were a very diverse group—this is apparently a Thaylen woman, or at least a woman who married a Thaylen man and gave their children Thaylen names. It’s rather nice to get the reminder that the Radiants of old had families; it makes them more relatable, in a way. It also may be where a lot of the light eyes came from.
Good night, dear Urithiru. Good night, sweet Sibling. Good night, Radiants.
—From drawer 29-29, ruby (Chapter 87)
Once again, this is just not the tone I expected from Dustbringers! This one sounds very affectionate, not merely toward his own spren or Order, but toward their home, the Sibling spren, and all Radiants. It’s also confirmation that he expects to be leaving all of those, and soon.
Edgedancers
There are no Edgedancer records; I think we’re to take this lack in the epigraphs as confirmation that the Stoneward (see below) was right, and that no Edgedancers were willing to take the time to make recordings. We don’t know, of course, how long it took to make a recording, but it at least implies a certain urgency to leaving Urithiru; not one of the entire Order was willing to risk abandoning any of the non-Radiant folks by taking unnecessary time away from their self-assigned responsibility.
Truthwatchers
I worry about my fellow Truthwatchers.
—From drawer 8-21, second emerald (Chapter 60)
Welp. That’s just frustrating. Why are you worried, you Truthwatcher? What do you see? And… we get nothing.
Something must be done about the remnants of Odium’s forces. The parsh, as they are now called, continue their war with zeal, even without their masters from Damnation.
—From drawer 30-20, first emerald (Chapter 77)
A coalition has been formed among scholar Radiants. Our goal is to deny the enemy their supply of Voidlight; this will prevent their continuing transformations, and give us an edge in combat.
—From drawer 30-20, second emerald (Chapter 78)
Our revelation is fueled by the theory that the Unmade can perhaps be captured like ordinary spren. It would require a special prison. And Melishi.
—From drawer 30-20, third emerald (Chapter 79)
Ba-Ado-Mishram has somehow Connected with the parsh people, as Odium once did. She provides Voidlight and facilitates forms of power. Our strike team is going to imprison her.
—From drawer 30-20, fourth emerald (Chapter 80)
We are uncertain the effect this will have on the parsh. At the very least, it should deny them forms of power. Melishi is confident, but Naze-daughter-Kuzodo warns of unintended side effects.
—From drawer 30-20, fifth emerald (Chapter 81)
Surely this will bring—at long last—the end to war that the Heralds promised us.
—From drawer 30-20, final emerald (Chapter 82)
I’m going to address these as if it’s intended to be a continuous recording, since they are labeled as the first through fifth, and then the final, emeralds in the drawer. This draws a somewhat different picture than I’d had in my head before. I’d assumed that after Aharietiam (the Prelude at the beginning of The Way of Kings) things were relatively peaceful as both sides recovered from the war, and then there were just the usual occasional wars popping up, as seems endemic to humanity.
According to these, though, there has been an ongoing war for nearly three thousand years. It probably ebbed in intensity from time to time, but it seems like it’s really been going on the entire time. We don’t know when Ba-Ado-Mishram formed that Connection; it might be a relatively recent development, or it might be something they have finally figured out, or it might be that they have finally found a solution to something they’ve known for a while.
I do find this confusing, though, because it seems that the idea of trapping Ba-Ado-Mishram in a perfect gem is something the scholars—Truthwatchers and other Orders—came up with as a group, and Melishi was part of the planning. But there’s that epigraph in Words of Radiance Chapter 58, which says,
So Melishi retired to his tent, and resolved to destroy the Voidbringers upon the next day, but that night did present a different stratagem, related to the unique abilities of the Bondsmiths; and being hurried, he could make no specific account of his process; it was related to the very nature of the Heralds and their divine duties, an attribute the Bondsmiths alone could address.
That sounds like Melishi did something other than what was planned. So I’m confused. Is it likely that the writer of the in-world “Words of Radiance” simply didn’t know about the extended planning, and so presents it as being something Melishi came up with overnight? That’s the best explanation I’ve got, since we know that the book was put together from hearsay, combining “facts, lore, and superstition.” Maybe the gemstones tell the truth behind the stories.
In any case, it looks like both Melishi and Naze-daughter-Kuzodo were right; it worked, and there were unintended side effects. They were planning to merely block the parsh ability to use Voidlight, presumably so that they couldn’t take on the “forms of power”—the Odium-connected ones, the ones the Listeners so assiduously avoided. I believe, anyway, that they didn’t intend to remove the ability to block all transformation; just the Void forms. They overshot their mark, and turned nearly an entire species from sapient to merely sentient.
Don’t tell anyone. I can’t say it. I must whisper. I foresaw this.
—From drawer 30-20, a particularly small emerald (Chapter 85)
I separated this one, because it’s from the same drawer—presumably meaning the same Truthwatcher—but the emerald isn’t numbered like the rest, and the fact that it’s “particularly small” almost sounds like it was meant to be unnoticed by the others. My burning question about it is what she foresaw. Was this, perhaps, added after the plan was executed? Did she feel horribly guilty because she foresaw how the parsh would be affected, and did nothing to stop the plan? That’s my primary theory. A less-likely one (IMO) is that she is fearful of admitting that she foresaw anything, if they were already operating under the notion that seeing the future is of Odium. (I think that idea was pushed during the backlash from the Heirocracy, and before that point no one associated seeing the future with Odium.)
Lightweavers
I am worried about the tower’s protections failing. If we are not safe from the Unmade here, then where?
—From drawer 3-11, garnet (Chapter 73)
This is the only Lightweaver recording we get to see. My best guess is that we are supposed to be reminded of Re-Shephir’s presence in the tower back in Part One, and realize that the Unmade were seeking to infiltrate Urithiru during this time. It’s hard to say which things are cause, and which are effect; we just don’t know enough. Were the Unmade making inroads because the protections were failing, or were the protections failing because the Unmade were figuring something out? I also have to wonder if this was the same Lightweaver who ultimately trapped Re-Shephir long enough to make her fear Lightweavers.
Elsecallers
My research into the cognitive reflections of spren at the tower has been deeply illustrative. Some thought that the Sibling had withdrawn from men by intent—but I find counter to that theory.
—From drawer 1-1, first zircon (Chapter 68)
The wilting of plants and the general cooling of the air is disagreeable, yes, but some of the tower’s functions remain in place. The increased pressure, for example, persists.
—From drawer 1-1, second zircon (Chapter 69)
Something is happening to the Sibling. I agree this is true, but the division among the Knights Radiant is not to blame. Our perceived worthiness is a separate issue.
—From drawer 1-1, third zircon (Chapter 70)
We already talked about this in the relevant chapters to some extent, but it combines interestingly with the other recordings that imply discord among the Radiants. They seem to all agree that bad things are happening with respect to Urithiru and the Sibling, but they have differing opinions on the root causes… which generally means they have differing opinions on what, if anything, needs to be changed. This Elsecaller believes that the Sibling is being forced into withdrawal, and that it’s not because of internal strife. Unfortunately, though, he doesn’t present a theory as to what is causing it.
As the duly appointed keepers of the perfect gems, we of the Elsecallers have taken the burden of protecting the ruby nicknamed Honor’s Drop. Let it be recorded.
—From drawer 20-10, zircon (Chapter 83)
Well, hello there. We’ll meet you again, many chapters from now. What a lot of connections are to be made with this one little epigraph! Perfect gems will be mentioned a couple of times more, before we discover what they’re really good for. I wonder if the Elsecallers were involved in the plan to entrap Ba-Ado-Mishram, and if they contributed the appropriate prison intentionally.
Willshapers
I returned to the tower to find squabbling children, instead of proud knights. That’s why I hate this place. I’m going to go chart the hidden undersea caverns of Aimia; find my maps in Akinah.
—From drawer 16-16, amethyst (Chapter 63)
Now that we abandon the tower, can I finally admit that I hate this place? Too many rules.
—From drawer 8-1, amethyst (Chapter 65)
We already talked about these in the chapter discussions, but I have to wonder—did all the Willshapers dislike Urithiru? If so, is it really because of the rules and political fighting? Or is it that the decreasing presence of the Sibling is causing the discord among those living in Urithiru, and the Willshapers (with their inherent love of adventure) simply find the atmosphere distasteful, blame it on something convenient, and are glad to leave?
Stonewards
As a Stoneward, I spent my entire life looking to sacrifice myself. I secretly worry that is the cowardly way. The easy way out.
—From drawer 29-5, topaz (Chapter 58)
Again, we’ve already talked about the specific content back in Chapter 58. What strikes me now, as I work through all the recordings we’re given, is the variation in how the opportunity was used. The Truthwatchers and Elsecallers recorded some of the results of their scholarship (for which I thank them, personally!) while others were much more personal. This Stoneward is pretty introspective. The next one, less so, but still personal:
The disagreements between the Skybreakers and the Windrunners have grown to tragic levels. I plead with any who hear this to recognize you are not so different as you think.
This one focuses outward, seeking unity but at a personal level. The next is a very different angle:
The Edgedancers are too busy relocating the tower’s servants and farmers to send a representative to record their thoughts in these gemstones.
I’ll do it for them, then. They are the ones who will be most displaced by this decision. The Radiants will be taken in by nations, but what of all these people now without homes?
—From drawer 4-17, second topaz (Chapter 72)
This Stoneward seems to stand second only to the Edgedancers themselves in compassion for others. Most of the others talk about the Knights Radiant, or about Urithiru. One talked about her family. This is the only one who comments on the effect leaving Urithiru will have on the ordinary folk of the tower, and I’m really glad it’s included. I mean… I probably wouldn’t have thought about it, either. It’s easier to focus on the power-people, the ones who are going to shape the history of centuries to come. I wonder where all of them ended up.
The enemy makes another push toward Feverstone Keep. I wish we knew what it was that had them so interested in that area. Could they be intent on capturing Rall Elorim?
—From drawer 19-2, third topaz (Chapter 84)
And… Fine. Just FINE. Remind me that Feverstone Keep is still a mystery. This is our sole clue to its location, implying that it’s somewhere near Rall Elorim, or at least between Rall Elorim and the rest of the continent. The city itself could be a red herring; there might be something else out there that matters to them. I just noticed on the map that the city of Eila is also in that general vicinity. Is that Significant in the discovery that led to the Recreance? So many questions.
Bondsmiths
Not surprisingly, we have no Bondsmith recordings. We’re told that there is only one Bondsmith at this point. It could be that Melishi chose not to record anything, or it could be that giving us his recordings would be information we aren’t allowed to see at this point. For what it’s worth, I’m pretty sure Melishi had to be bonded to Nightwatcher—either that, or he was extremely secretive about what was going on with his spren, and no one was willing to speculate even in private. We know that the Sibling and Honor both had Something Going Wrong, but there’s no indication that Melishi was worried about his spren, or affected by something weird in their bond. I would still bet that he had more information about what was going on with the other two than he was apparently willing to share, though.
Peripheral Points
I have to share one other thing from the beta, which has absolutely nothing to do with the gemstone archive. I just ran across it while looking for our reactions to the scene, and it made me laugh. If you recall, the archive was discovered in the same chapter where Amaram tried to force a private conversation with Jasnah, and got his… ego handed to him on a platter. This is my one and only (I think) request for a cameo; it wasn’t exactly serious, but it sure would have been fun:
[Amaram is] such an absolute ass, but he really does think he’s all that and a bag of chips. Can we please get rid of him? Please? I’d be happy to climb into the book as the world’s most unlikely assassin. I’m sure Brandon can write it so it works.
Except… we need to find where he’s got Taln hidden. Maybe I can torture it out of him first?
To which Mark replied
I totally want to see that cameo.
Alas, it was not to be. Brandon had other plans to get rid of Amaram. Maybe I could assassinate Moash instead. That would be fun. Or maybe Ialai will show up again to cause trouble and need to be removed? Heh.
Anyway, we’ll be back in force next week, I hope, with Chapters 75 and 76: Dalinar’s flashbacks to the second battle at the Rift.
Alice is still awaiting her cameo—and to be perfectly honest, she doesn’t expect one. “An unlikely assassin” would be pretty fun, though. Just sayin’…
About the Author
Alice Arneson
Author
Alice is still awaiting her cameo—and to be perfectly honest, she doesn’t expect one. “An unlikely assassin” would be pretty fun, though. Just sayin’…
When you login first time using a Social Login button, we collect your account public profile information shared by Social Login provider, based on your privacy settings. We also get your email address to automatically create an account for you in our website. Once your account is created, you'll be logged-in to this account.
DisagreeAgree
Connect with
I allow to create an account
When you login first time using a Social Login button, we collect your account public profile information shared by Social Login provider, based on your privacy settings. We also get your email address to automatically create an account for you in our website. Once your account is created, you'll be logged-in to this account.
My thought on how to resolve the conflicting Melishi information is that maybe he didn’t do the unmade plan after all. They planned (unmade in a perfect gem), he withdrew to his tent, he did some other thing which was why it wasn’t just the forms of power that were effected.
Steven Hedge
5 years ago
Thanks so much for putting all of this down! sometimes it’s difficult to keep track of all of the epigraphs. SO here we are. THE stormlight archieve. I don’t have much to say, but the stone with the windrunner checking things out reminds me of kal’s LOVE for the sky, that and the rest of bridge four. i think its something that just comes natural to them.
Ok, so I’m too lazy to look up information to discount my theory, so if any of you have info feel free to disabuse my of this notion, but….
Random Theory Time: What if the Horneaters used to be the farmers and servants of Urithiru? I remember Rock talked about the story of how his people came to where they were had to do with how no one would take them in and they wandered and eventually found a place. That seems to echo what the Stoneward mentions about “where will they go?” Further, knowing that they’ve had a connection to spren because of their heritage, I could see them enjoying living in Urithiru and being connected to the Sibling, the Radiant spren, etc. Anyway, the timing could be way off, but that was a random thought I had.
I also took the liberty of looking up where Rall Elorim was since I couldn’t recall and it looks like it’s in Iri. So… could there be a connection with Evi’s family drama and secrets related to the keep? Or, more likely, is the fact that Iri is allying with the Parsh this time going to allow them to now get to whatever they were looking for in that area? Feverstone keep seems to be in imminent danger now.
Finally, I really like these epigraphs and the insights we get. The Stoneward ones are defnintely my favorite. I think that might be the order I would want to join. (I like the Edgedancer oaths, too, but I picture myself as much more of a sturdy, stone guy than a graceful one.)
John
5 years ago
I think Melishi was bonded to the Sibling and also I think Melishi is Ishar. The strangeness with the Sibling was because Melishi/Ishar was up to no good. I think he was sabotaging the Knights Radiant from within.
theMattBoard
5 years ago
@2 The Stormlight Archive
I feel really dumb for not having associated that name to all of these. I guess that I usually don’t think of the series title unless I am recommending the books to someone else. Wow. Good job brain.
Secondly, I really love the way Sanderson does this in his books. This kind of second story/meta-story with journals, notes, etc. I know lots of authors do this, but I feel it is really done in the the Cosmere. (I’ve been re-reading Ender’s Game and Speaker for the Dead recently and they are used well there too.) The fact that he gives us a different flavor for each story (journal, book, archives, broadsheets, etc.) in each story just makes it all the better.
This was a great recap of the epigraph and it made me appreciate them in ways which weren’t possible while reading the book.
This being said, the Edgedancers, the Stonewards and the Dustbringers are the ones having most of my sympathy here because they are the only ones to have some thought for the regular folks. Every other record is either about “something being wrong with Honor, with the Sibling”, about “dissention among the Radiants” and also about “me, myself and I”.
I have noted this before, how a majority of the Radiants inner discourse is resolutely centered on themselves, on their own problems, their own brokeness with very few thoughts being spared towards other people. It seems our cast of Radiants doesn’t differ on the matter as their ancestors as only three of them saw fit to mentions “other people” . You know, the regular people? The ones who cannot heal themselves, fly, nor get super strength? The ones who will suffer the most backlash from the Radiants decisions? The ones who are actually affected by it and not the Radiants who’ll just keep on being Gods, elsewhere?
Few Radiants only saw fit to think about those people. The whole Edgedancer order, one Stoneward who thought of how the Edgedancers won’t bother with the silliness of recording thoughts when thousand of people are being left without a home and one Dustbringer thinking about her family. That was so sweet!
It was great to see a handful of Radiants put forward the faith of the people before their own. That’s the one thing I worry the most with the future of SA, seeing Radiants rise so high, they can no longer look back down and care about regular people’s plight. How can you care when you have the living confirmation *your hardship* matters more than others by the Nahel Bond granted to you on the virtue of your *suffering*? This amount of validation in one’s perceived sense of tragedy and suffering would cause most people to turn terribly inward and forget other people can suffer too, even if no spren see fit to *reward* them for it. Heck, I am not even sure it is such a good thing to have your personal hardships be given so much lampshade.
That’s exactly the kind of commentary I hope Brandon will include within RoW: what it means not to be chosen to how you, as an individual, come to perceive your personal plights and what it means to be chosen and get this validation? Aren’t we all trying to push forward our personal issues as the ones which matter the most? I find this a really interesting avenue to explore, but it may not fit within the planning.
@3. i love your random theory there. makes sense based on the history rock told the others, and fits with that narrative as well. i wonder where the inter-mixing with the parsh came i to play..
Austin
5 years ago
@6 – Number 4 is way off, IMO. Syl has already stated that she is ok with killing. The general consensus for the 4th Ideal is something like “I will accept that I cannot protect everyone.” Something along the lines that you will lose people and must accept that.
The Releasers continually get a bad rep that I am really glad these epigraphs were included. It makes me look forward all the more to learn more about Malata, and meet new dustbringers!
I think the Truthwatcher that mentioned “foreseeing this”, is referring to expectations and not actually seeing the future. I think it was to serve a dual function of giving us some info while still making us wondering whether or not Renarin was a true “normal” Truthwatcher.
I do believe the Elsecallers were among the number of scholarly radiant orders. I think the Truthwatchers, Elsecallers, and Lightweavers are the main ones. Potentially skybreakers, bondsmiths, and willshapers. Can’t wait to find out more about the orders!
Austin
5 years ago
@7 – Bare in mind that we only got a glimpse of the thoughts of past Radiants. What you just wrote is the complete antithesis of the Windrunner order, for instance. I can’t see a way for them to swear those oaths about protecting people and then forget about the people? That doesn’t make sense.
Miscellaneous thoughts – -Maybe ‘I don’t care’ is the secret – that this person, in fact doesn’t really care about anybody or anyone. (That said, despite the possible sociopathy here, this is probably one of my favorite recordings, perhaps due to the contrariness lol). I kind of love the Willshapers too.
-It’s ironic that there are no Edgedancer recordings, given that their whole mission is to remember those who are forgotten (in fact, the Dustbringiner recording about the husband and children is one I would have guessed was an Edgedancer).
Interesting theory on the horneaters. I think they were radiants too, because if I recall correctly, there was a shardplate someone remarked looked a lot like a horneater blade, so that makes me think a horneater actually was a radiant and shaped his blade to take that form, but that’s still totally conjecture on my part. I wish you luck with your theory!
@7 – I don’t know that we can make sweeping judgments based on what they recorded for posterity in a moment of crisis and their immediate concerns. All of which DO impact the common folk, in the end. Not to mention the value that knowledge could have for the common folk NOW.
Certainly, some orders are likely more esoteric than others, though.
@10 and with regard to thoughts in the original post: I definitely took the smallest emerald entry to be what Alice thought was “least likely”, namely that this Truthwatcher did see the actual future and was scared of it – that even then there was some prejudice against seeing the future. But, maybe that really did happen only after the Hierocracy, so who knows.
@11 and 12, I agree. I also agree with you Austin that Oath 4 will not be about not killing. Interesting thought @6, but I think it would be impractical for an entire order of Radiants who are dedicated to fighting the Voidbringers to commit to not killing any of the Voidbringers.
@8 and 13. Thanks FSS, we’ll see what happens. In this theory, the intermixing still happened earlier and they were a distinct group by the time they first came to Urithiru.
Scath, I will say that my theory doesn’t mean none of the Horneaters were knights, just that as a “people” they lived in Urithiru and then some of them would naturally be knights as people from all lands were also knights. Urithiru was just their “home”, too. My main concern with it, besides potentially being way off in timing for when they settled in the “peaks” – although, Urithiru could have just been their “1st peak” that was truly prepared by a god/spren – is actually the similarity this would give them to the //Aiel// of WoT. (spoiler if Sylas is hanging around this reread, haha). // This would mean another group that has red hair, taller than normal, wandered because they weren’t welcome and settled in an inhospitable place who then largely avoided conflict with other nations and only warred with themselves. And now we would add that they also used to be the “servants” of the magic users.// Obviously Brandon is influenced by other series he has read (and worked on) but I don’t know if he would make a group so similar. And yes, obviously there are many differences, too, it just has a similar flavor.
No problemo and totally respect your theory. This response is just to explain a bit more why I think the way I do. I think Glys’s corruption causes Renarin’s illumination surge to function as the voidbringer version. I think normal Truthwatcher’s illumination provides remote viewing at a distance, or illusions. I think the Truthwatcher in the gemstone was saying he figured the issues would be coming, but didn’t say anything because of the potential fall out among the others. For instance I could totally see a relationship between two friends failing horribly, but if I said it to them, they would be upset at me for not believing in them, or seemingly jinxing their relationship. Then when the resulting relationship failed, I can’t say I foresaw it, because they would be upset at me for not saying anything. So I foresaw it, but cannot tell anyone. I think this was also to keep us guessing regarding Renarin. Well a past Truthwatcher could potentially see the future, so Renarin seeing the future must be normal, when the reality is it is not. But at this juncture all of that is totally conjecture on my part, so I see where you are coming from and understand why you came to the conclusions you have.
Welllllll, Jasnah has said that not all orders will be going around swinging a blade, though I took that more to mean people within the various orders can choose for themselves whether they want to engage in combat or not. For instance Wyndle wanted to bond an elderly gardner. Syl also bonded an elderly individual that did not last long in combat. Now having said that, I do agree I doubt there is an entire order who’s oath prevents them from fighting at all.
Ah, regarding the horneaters I understand now. Interesting thoughts!
I said this before in a comment for an earlier chapter, but I think the 4th Ideal will be something about admitting to yourself that you can’t save everyone, that some people are beyond your reach, beyond saving.
Taking into account that the ideals can be personalized (as we see with Teft’s Third Ideal), Kaladin’s Fourth would be something like “I will admit that there are some people I cannot save… but that doesn’t mean I will stop trying.”
@9: On the fourth ideal, I like the one saying, “I will accept the choices others make even if it results in their death” or “I cannot protect people from their own personal choices”. It means to highlight the fact Kaladin cannot protect the Parshendis after they have chosen to attack Elhokar, just as he cannot protect Adolin who is dying nor Dalinar who is far away. All of his oaths, so far, have been about him, about his perception. I thought it was time to add other people’s perception as part of protecting is to admit when you have to… let go and allows for others to make their own choices and their own mistakes.
@11: And yet the Windrunner’s epigraph was solely about himself, his oaths, not about the people left behind. That’s the thing, when such a huge lampshade is being put on your own personal problems, you end up seeing nothing else but those personal problems. Sure, Kaladin thinks about others, but in Kholinar and Shadesmar, he doesn’t think others have the right to make their own call because he cannot accept HE could lose someone and HE would feel guilty about it. His altruism then becomes terribly personal and something which relates to his own person as opposed to others.
Part of being altruism is to allow others to live outside what you want them to do. And that’s what Kaladin and this other Windrunner have been struggling with: the fact others may not want their protection or what they perceive as protection. Kaladin is currently enforcing his protection onto others without realizing maybe they don’t want it nor asked for it. That’s what I think he needs to learn.
@14: I am merely observing the fact not many of the Radiants who chose to record their thoughts had thoughts for the regular folks. Or at least, the ones Brandon chose to present.
@17: I have a different opinion on the 4th oath, I think it is the opposite of what you are suggesting. I don’t think it is about accepting some people cannot be saved, I think it is about accepting some people may not want you to save them, about accepting others have the right to make decisions which would endanger them, they have the right to move away from your protection. It fits with the other Windrunner, wondering how he is to swear the 4th oath as shouldn’t be protecting people?
Hence, I think the 4th oath is about giving other people’s agency. Kaladin’s struggles are broader than accepting people he wants to protect may die, they are about accepting others can make choices which may result in their death. And he has to let them do it.
The recording from the Dustbringer who thanked her husband and wife gave me the impression that the husband was not a KR. Not sure why I got that impression, but I did. In a similar vein, I wonder how many KR did marry and have families? And what percentage who did marry, married another KR. If they did marry a KR, would it be more common to marry a KR who was in the same Order or a different Order? I think it would be better to marry somebody in a different Order. Sometimes people in the same Order may have the same characteristics and that may not be the best thing for a health marriage. Also, I wonder how much adjustment there would be on the non-KR spouse. Further, I wonder how whether children of a KR (either one parent is a KR or both parents are KR) are more, less or equally likely to become a KR in their own right.
Thanks for reading my musings. AndrewHB aka the musespren
Austin
5 years ago
@18 – You have some good insight on the altruism of the oaths, but again, you’re going off on one individual Windrunner’s brief message left behind. One that concerns abandoning the tower for good. I have no problem with that person leaving a personal message about missing the jump off the tower. It has nothing to do with their oaths as a Windrunner. It’s a person saying goodbye to a home.
I don’t have much time, nor access to the text at the moment and will hopefully be able to provide some quotes later, but concerning the accidental removal of all parsh forms when BAM was captured – there is some oblique info in WoR in Eshonai’s chapters’ epigraphs and a bit in her PoV. It has to do with how forms were _forced_ on the Last Legion and how they seemed unable to change forms – even normal ones, of their own volition, until somebody discovered how to assume the dullform. Or, at least, that’s how I interpreted the corresponding hints.
I conclude from this that BAM was Connected to all the parsh at the time in a way that was somewhat similar to the Radiants connection to their spren, only in the opposite direction, so that lobotomization of the parsh due to her imprisonment is the dark mirror to the killing of the Radiant spren during the Recreance.
The Last Legion, who managed to disassociate themselves from BAM by assuming the dullform on their own were fine, as we know. But it also explains why they had to laborously rediscover non-void forms over the centuries – their rebellious ancestors no longer possessed the knowledge of how to change into them because BAM had already robbed them of it.
I also still think that Melishi was bonded to the Sibling and that Ishar and Nale had something to do with Honor’s dying rants and the Recreance. They may have also done their best to foster the disagreements among the Radiants. I mean, Nale could have been a Skybreaker member with nobody being the wiser and perfectly placed to be an agent povocateur.
Yea, I’d also love to find out what it was that the ancient parsh were trying to get to during their doomed push to the Feverstone Keep and whether it has anything to do with Iri’s sudden about-face this time around. They are in Cultivation’s sphere of influence, too and the one human nation which historically worldhopped beyond the Rosharan system. I can’t help but wonder if it is all in Cultivation’s game-plan and whether the Iri aren’t intending to pull up the stakes and move on to their next Land, somehow. Lift is a Rall Elorim native, isn’t she? She could also be instrumental in showing us whatever is brewing up there. It is not called “The City of Shadows” for nothing, I Imagine. And, yea, the whole so far mysterious drama of Evi and Toh could be connected, too.
There is the one thing that would probably be found somewhere around the area, if Dalinar’s vision was even a little bit accurate – and that’s the stash of the hundreds of missing shards.
Whitespine @3:
I had a somewhat different idea that the Horneaters were the descendants of the young parsh children who escaped lobotomization and were taken in by some human faction for a time, but they and their decsnedants continued to suffer under the stigma of their descent, hence search for a land of their own. In Eshonai’s PoV in WoR it is mentioned that the first change was an important milestone of growing up among the Listeners, so I figured that maybe BAM didn’t get to the parsh kids until they reached a certain age. But IIRC, a Horneater Radiant appears in one of Dalinar’s visions, so that couldn’t have been the case.
A very interesting idea, but I don’t see how Nale could have been unaware? Still, the name similarities could hint at some connection between them.
Aeshdan
5 years ago
My own theory for the Fourth Windrunner Ideal (or rather the theory I accept, since I didn’t come up with it) is “I will accept the protection of my allies when I cannot protect myself”. So it’s less about there being people who shouldn’t be protected, and more about the Windrunner accepting that he can’t always be the strong one, that sometimes he is going to need saving. Like at the climax of Oathbringer, where Kaladin couldn’t save his friends from the Fused and Dalinar saved him and them.
Steven Hedge
5 years ago
@23 except if that was true, than he would have gotten his oath when Dalinar DID save him. Syl’s words were “it is fine, for now, someone else will protect you” no, i am going with the idea that it is he cannot protect everyone. It goes with his issues of not being able to protect the parsh and wallguard, not being able to protect Adolin, AND goes back to his father’s words that he has to grow callosues, that he cannot save everyone, no matter how hard he tries.
Austin
5 years ago
@24 – Not to mention that Kaladin clearly knew what the 4th Ideal was but couldn’t bring himself to commit to it. This was before Dalinar saved him, so that had nothing to do with his struggle. Like you said, Kaladin was reeling from the death of the parsh and the wall guard. He knows, deep down, that he can’t protect everyone. I imagine it’s going to take a while before he accepts that.
@19: I love your questions, so count me in among those who are asking. We may however have a few answers with the Shallan/Adolin marriage within RoW. Hopefully, we’ll get to see how Adolin adjusts towards not only being married to a near God, but also being the sole normal human within his closed ones. He’s kind of the only character with an existing narrative currently in the position to provide such viewpoint.
@20: Fair enough. I may be putting too much into one Windrunner’s words.
My own personal theory however remains Windrunners need to accept other people have the right to make choices which could result in their death or cause them harm.
For instance, in WoR, Kaladin cannot accept Moash has chosen to betray Dalinar and Elhokar. He prefers trying to make the choices Moash had already made disappear as opposed to merely admit Moash has chosen to walk on a different path and this path needs him to deal with him.
Later in OB, Kaladin screams to everyone to stop fighting. Again, he is pushing what he wants into others: he doesn’t want to see his friends fight one another, but he doesn’t realize this isn’t his call nor his decision. What happened in the Kholinar palace wasn’t about Kaladin, it wasn’t about him, his guilt nor his pain, it was about one group of people he once was friendly with choosing to attack him and another group of people he was friendly with. None of it has anything to do with him, but he makes it about him by refusing to accept Sha and the Parshendis have the agency to make their own choices. And those choices may not be the one he wants them to make.
So that’s my current speculation when it comes to the Windrunner’s 4th ideal: accept the choice is not always theirs to make. They cannot protect people from their own decision making.
Like Adolin choosing to die when mortally wounded. Like Dalinar not being where he wants him to be so he could protect him.
@24: I agree about @23, but I would push it one notch further. Many of the times Kaladin faced what he perceived as failure came from needing to accept other people have made decisions which goes against his desire to protect them.
Perhaps my version of the 4th ideal fits with the most commonly accepted one. It may be the real 4th ideal will be a combination of the two or that both versions essentially state the same. The epigraph however makes me think part of the 4th ideal is to accept not everyone can be protected whether due to circumstances or their own personal choices. A Windrunner cannot make decisions for others just as Kaladin cannot make Moash not choose to kill Elhokar nor Sha not choose to follow Moash nor Adolin not ask him to let him die.
It looks like being around Radiants increases your chances to become a radiant, but does not guarantee you will become a squire, whether or not you will ever advance as a squire, whether or not you will be come a radiant at all and whether or not you will be a radiant of the same order as your parents. It looks like being around radiants only results in an increase of density of spren (potentially certain types) to be around. It is still up to the spren on whether or not you are the type of person they want to bond.
Justafan
5 years ago
It is fun to try to guess a particular Oath, but they are just vocalizations of an Ideal Concept. Using what we learned in this book from the Skybreakers and Szeth’s Oaths as an example:
Skybreakers:
Oath 2: The Ideal of Justice – I will put the law before all
Oath 3: The Ideal of Dedication – I swear to follow the will of Dalinar Kholin. This is my oath.
Oath 4: The Ideal of Crusade – I will cleanse the Shin of their false leaders, so long as Dalinar Kholin agrees.
Oath 5: Ideal of Law – ?
So for Windrunners it would be something like this:
Oath 2: Ideal of Protection: I will protect those who cannot protect themselves
Oath 3: Ideal of Universality: I will protect even those I hate, so long as it is right
Oath 4: Ideal of Acceptance: (any of the above comments)
I have made a chart listing them this way and it makes a lot of sense. (EdgeDancers Ideal of Rememberance, Ideal of Attention. Bondsmiths Ideal of binding, Ideal of Responsibility etc)
I know crustaceans aren’t fish, but having never microwaved them, if they produce a similar odor to microwaved fish, then that oath maybe problematic on Roshar lol
If there were Unmade at Urithiru Renarin might not be the first Knight with a corrupted spren. That could explain the secret seeing the future ability.
Austin
5 years ago
@31 – That seems possible, though all indications so far is that the ability to corrupt spren belongs to Sja-anat. Each Unmade seems to have their own abilities.
My take on the parsh thing is that Ba-Ado was simply providing investiture, thereby enabling the parsh forms of power. Capturing Ba-Ado caused the parsh to default to dullform (which I assume is without a spren, correct me if I’m wrong), but they kept fighting. Melishi then came up with a new plan in a hurry, which was what caused the slave form.
I’ll be honest that I don’t read all the comments in the reread, but am I the only one that thinks the Sibling is the spren of Urithiru? It totally makes sense, to me at least, that Urithiru would develop a spren over time. It further makes sense that this spren would develop into a super-spren since everyone knew and believed in the legendary home of the KR. Because it’s a place, it would be genderless but would need some name to distinguish it from the city, so “Sibling “. It’s even possible that Honor and Cultivation helped to beef up, so to speak, this spren to make it bondable to Bondsmiths. I admit there may be holes in the theory, but it’s what I’m sticking with for the time being lol.
Random thoughts made without going back to review previous threads:
“Music of language,” Renarin whispered. …
Does this remind anyone else of the Parshendi? Could there be a Listener equivalent archive hidden somewhere waiting to be discovered?
This first one doesn’t seem to have much significance beyond telling us that the departure of the Knights Radiant from Urithiru was imminent.
This sort of leap seems like a great test/training exercise for apprentices.
I believe that Honor himself is changing.
I think the significance here is that person refer to Honor himself, not the Almighty. This seems to imply a larger knowledge of the Cosmere that has since been lost on Roshar.
It’s hard to deal with some of these hints. I want much more of the gem archives than the little snippets we get. It makes my scholar bone tingle something awful.
KatherineMW
5 years ago
Thank you for this! I don’t get much from the epigraphs except a broad-strokes sense of what they’re talking about. Having them organized this way really clarifies things.
Kefka
5 years ago
“Her spren doesn’t exactly help, since Ash is deeply resentful of humans and of Honor, and takes great delight in breaking things.”
Just a little nitpick: Malata’s spren is named “Spark”, and is an ashspren.
Slaybalj
5 years ago
WRT the windrunner 4th oath… i agree that respecting agency is part of it, but it cant be all of it. When kaladin fails to speak the oath at the end of the book he lists all the people he thinks he failed to save…that included bridgemen who died in runs, slaves he tried to help escape, the men who helaran killed, the men amaram killed, and tien. Many of those people had very little choice in the circumstances that led to their death. Kaladin still cant get over the fact that they died when he tried to save him.
my personal belief is that the 4th idea is an acknowledgement that you cannot save everyone. Some people will refuse it or insist on their paths, but some will simply be beyond his ability to save. this happens to be the lesson his father tried to impress on him as an apprentice. I find it also noteworthy that his father, when faced with a badly injured Roshone and son, abandoned the boy he could not save in order to tend the man he was capable of keeping alive.
I think its also worth noting that it appears the higher oaths windrunner speak are at east a little tailored to the speaker. Kaladin says “i will protect even those i hate, so long as it is right”. Teft, on the other hand says “i will protect even those i hate, even if the one i hate most is myself”. The exact words are less important than the idea of “yes, everyone is deserving of protection”
You are not alone in thinking the Sibling is connected to Urithiru. In fact it is the prevailing theory that a lot of people prescribe to. As to whether the Sibling arose after Urithiru was made, and is the spren of the tower, that I think is a new theory. I wish you luck with it!
@36 RogerPavelle
I believe that was in reference to the gemstone archive as they vibrate a code that is words, so it would be music of language. However it could be Glys’s corruption and thereby connection with the voidbringers is what allowed Renarin to make such a connection, like the parshendi. Interesting theory!
I agree. I think the knights radiant having a closer level of interaction with the shards that “powered” them resulted in higher cosmere awareness. Add to it willshapers and elsecallers natural ability to worldhop (though limited by their spren), and I would hazard the radiants were very cosmere aware before the desolations destroyed all records.
@37 EvilMonkey
Oh believe me, considering it is mentioned that there are hundreds, I can’t help but hope we will get to read more!
@33 I agree. There’s a huge distance between accepting you can’t protect everyone and choosing who to protect and who to sacrifice. Kaladin would rather die than make that choice. But the second attribute of the Windrunners is leading, and in a war that choice is intrinsic to leadership.
It will be an interesting inversion to have Kaladin start RoW knowing the Ideal. We’re used to our heroes revealing the Ideal as they speak it. I expect Kaladin to at least express the Ideal early on (it would be weird to keep hiding it from the audience) and work toward it in the open.
@29 That should be an amendment to the Constitution
Browncoat Jayson
5 years ago
I think the Fourth Ideal is going to be something stronger, as it will be something that they obviously don’t want to accept (“Am I not supposed to want to help people?”)?
Possibly more like, “I will not help those when, in doing so, I put more people in jeopardy.” Basically, you have to go for the greater good. You can see similar conflicts in Asamov’s Laws of Robotics, if you watch “I, Robot”.
I hope its not, because I hate artificial limitations like that. However, it would make a conflict for folks like Kaladin.
@35 – It as been my belief for a while that the Sibling is indeed the spren of Urithiru, and I am not convinced that a Bondsmith (or any other KR) can bond with the Sibling.
@46 That’s an interesting thought. Then, who do you think the other Bondsmithspren are? The Stormfather explicitly says that the Nightwatcher is like him and then refers to the third sibling. I don’t think that we have a WoB that confirms the three Bondsmith Spren, but I always thought it is too obvious not to be true…
The recording from the Dustbringer who thanked her husband and wife gave me the impression that the husband was not a KR. Not sure why I got that impression, but I did. In a similar vein, I wonder how many KR did marry and have families? And what percentage who did marry, married another KR. If they did marry a KR, would it be more common to marry a KR who was in the same Order or a different Order? I think it would be better to marry somebody in a different Order. Sometimes people in the same Order may have the same characteristics and that may not be the best thing for a health marriage. Also, I wonder how much adjustment there would be on the non-KR spouse. Further, I wonder how whether children of a KR (either one parent is a KR or both parents are KR) are more, less or equally likely to become a KR in their own right.
We have seen exactly two married Radiants in the SA’s “modern” age. Neither is married to a Radiant.
This is what I meant about the information in WoR concerning the compromised ability of the pre-lobotomization parsh to assume forms:
“Forms could not be commanded; every person was free to choose for themselves. Transformations could be cajoled and requested, but they could not be forced. Their gods had not allowed this freedom, so the listeners would have it, no matter what.”
“Child, have you seen your sister? It is her day of first transformation!”
“The forms, unknown, were forced upon us.”
“The Last Legion hadn’t known how to transforminto anything other than dullform and mateform, at least not without the help of the gods. How had they known the other forms were possible?”
“Venli hummed Irritation. “In the old day,all forms came from the gods.”
I-4 Last Legion
I think that there is more in the epigraphs, but these quotes make it even clearer than I remembered – Bo-Ado-Mishram was involved in all and any transformations of the parsh at the time of the False Desolation _except_ for those into dullform and mateform. For some reason I thought that the dullform was something that the Lost Legion discovered and that it may not have been known to the other parsh. Maybe there is something to that end in the epigraphs or Eshonai’s other chapters, but I am not going to hunt for citations. But even if it had been widely known, it would have been avoided by them, like the Listeners also tended to do once they rediscovered the other forms. Therefore, abrupt lobotomization of the bulk of the parsh once BAM was imprisoned.
However, both the parsh children who weren’t old enough for their their first transformation _and_ the mateforms must have survived this catastrophe with their cognition intact, just as the Last Legion did. So, were they all butchered by the victorious humans, or what? It occurs to me that Herdazians, while also descended from the singers, have very different markers than the Horneaters, so likely aren’t directly related to them – could it be that they are descended from these survivors? IIRC, Herdaz didn’t exist as a distinct entity during the Silver Kingdoms era…
Oh, and BTW, the aftermath of lobotomization from the PoV of a confused mateform parsh would make a great horror Interlude or novella.
Gepeto @26. Thank you. No matter what we learn of Shallan and Adolin’s marriage in RoW and subsequent books, it will not be the same as what occurred pre-Recreance. There you had numerous KRs from all 10 Orders. Their experiences would be nothing like the new KRs of the current generation. My questions in @19 (although not explicitly stated) wondered about KR of in the past. Not about how the new generation of KRs can adjust to married life.
Thanks for reading my musings. AndrewHB aka the musespren
@50: I would assume the hurdles they once had would still apply within the present-day. After all, being married to someone having a higher station than yourself, worst to someone detaining magical powers earned through worthiness, must not have differed all that much from what present-day characters will go through.
I would even argue it may be worst for married couples within the present-day narrative as the Radiants are currently being viewed as “Gods” whereas, pre-Recreance, there were more of them, so the aura around them must have been smaller. Adolin put it quite nicely towards the end of OB: it is a time for Gods, Heralds, and creatures out of legends to arise again. Shallan is one of them, but not him. I somehow doubt regular people viewed the Radiants as “Gods” during a time where they were commonplace, I mean, I could be wrong, but being the very first new Radiants in a world where the word Radiant takes more out of folklore than reality definitely seems like a bigger deal than it once was.
So I do think how Adolin adjusts will be a good indication towards how other people must have adjusted, back then.
So random thought. What if one of the newer windrunners ends up surpassing Kaladin in oaths? For instance lets say Drehy gets to the 4th oath first? Then Kaladin has some internal conflict for not progressing over the year, but then goes to Drehy and he helps him figure out how to get through that oath. Like Syl said, sometimes Kaladin should let people save him for a change. I think that would be a beautiful moment.
@48 Carl
Which I believe is why AndrewHB is curious how it once was. Among the Knights Radiant back then it was an entire institution fully established. Now they are just popping up here and there and trying to establish new traditions. So it looks like AndrewHB was wondering what form of traditions, and functions were in place back then and how those traditions and functions affected the relationships the knights radiant had or didn’t have. Personally I agree it would be interesting to find out, so I really hope we get to see more from the gemstone archive in book 4.
@50 AndrewHB
Those are good points and it also makes me wonder what happens when regular people were potentially enlisted like in Dalinar’s vision. The windrunner was impressed by his combat skills and invited him to Urithiru. Had that actually taken place, and not just been a vision, what would have happened? Could the family have come with a trainee? Would a stipend have been sent back to the farm to help maintain the family while he was away? Do you have to reach a certain level in the structure before your family can join you, or a certain number of oaths? What happens if you want to join up, but don’t want to leave your home? Did the radiants of old allow nascent radiants to “figure things out” on their own, trusting to the spren’s decisions? Or did a radiant trainer set up shop in the home of the newbie to help induct him or her? Or if they began the bond, were they forced to go to Urithiru for training? Whole lot of world building and ancient tradition that would be very interesting to learn, and I hope we learn more in the coming books.
Isn’t more like 2000 years ago, not 1,500, at least based on Jasnah’s estimate from the vision? She says that Dovcanti’s epic about the Recreance was written 1,500 years ago.
My thought on how to resolve the conflicting Melishi information is that maybe he didn’t do the unmade plan after all. They planned (unmade in a perfect gem), he withdrew to his tent, he did some other thing which was why it wasn’t just the forms of power that were effected.
Thanks so much for putting all of this down! sometimes it’s difficult to keep track of all of the epigraphs. SO here we are. THE stormlight archieve. I don’t have much to say, but the stone with the windrunner checking things out reminds me of kal’s LOVE for the sky, that and the rest of bridge four. i think its something that just comes natural to them.
Ok, so I’m too lazy to look up information to discount my theory, so if any of you have info feel free to disabuse my of this notion, but….
Random Theory Time: What if the Horneaters used to be the farmers and servants of Urithiru? I remember Rock talked about the story of how his people came to where they were had to do with how no one would take them in and they wandered and eventually found a place. That seems to echo what the Stoneward mentions about “where will they go?” Further, knowing that they’ve had a connection to spren because of their heritage, I could see them enjoying living in Urithiru and being connected to the Sibling, the Radiant spren, etc. Anyway, the timing could be way off, but that was a random thought I had.
I also took the liberty of looking up where Rall Elorim was since I couldn’t recall and it looks like it’s in Iri. So… could there be a connection with Evi’s family drama and secrets related to the keep? Or, more likely, is the fact that Iri is allying with the Parsh this time going to allow them to now get to whatever they were looking for in that area? Feverstone keep seems to be in imminent danger now.
Finally, I really like these epigraphs and the insights we get. The Stoneward ones are defnintely my favorite. I think that might be the order I would want to join. (I like the Edgedancer oaths, too, but I picture myself as much more of a sturdy, stone guy than a graceful one.)
I think Melishi was bonded to the Sibling and also I think Melishi is Ishar. The strangeness with the Sibling was because Melishi/Ishar was up to no good. I think he was sabotaging the Knights Radiant from within.
@2 The Stormlight Archive
I feel really dumb for not having associated that name to all of these. I guess that I usually don’t think of the series title unless I am recommending the books to someone else. Wow. Good job brain.
Secondly, I really love the way Sanderson does this in his books. This kind of second story/meta-story with journals, notes, etc. I know lots of authors do this, but I feel it is really done in the the Cosmere. (I’ve been re-reading Ender’s Game and Speaker for the Dead recently and they are used well there too.) The fact that he gives us a different flavor for each story (journal, book, archives, broadsheets, etc.) in each story just makes it all the better.
1. Life before death, strength before weakness, journey before destination.
2. I will protect those who cannot protect themselves.
3. I will protect those I hate.
4. I will not kill to protect.
This was a great recap of the epigraph and it made me appreciate them in ways which weren’t possible while reading the book.
This being said, the Edgedancers, the Stonewards and the Dustbringers are the ones having most of my sympathy here because they are the only ones to have some thought for the regular folks. Every other record is either about “something being wrong with Honor, with the Sibling”, about “dissention among the Radiants” and also about “me, myself and I”.
I have noted this before, how a majority of the Radiants inner discourse is resolutely centered on themselves, on their own problems, their own brokeness with very few thoughts being spared towards other people. It seems our cast of Radiants doesn’t differ on the matter as their ancestors as only three of them saw fit to mentions “other people” . You know, the regular people? The ones who cannot heal themselves, fly, nor get super strength? The ones who will suffer the most backlash from the Radiants decisions? The ones who are actually affected by it and not the Radiants who’ll just keep on being Gods, elsewhere?
Few Radiants only saw fit to think about those people. The whole Edgedancer order, one Stoneward who thought of how the Edgedancers won’t bother with the silliness of recording thoughts when thousand of people are being left without a home and one Dustbringer thinking about her family. That was so sweet!
It was great to see a handful of Radiants put forward the faith of the people before their own. That’s the one thing I worry the most with the future of SA, seeing Radiants rise so high, they can no longer look back down and care about regular people’s plight. How can you care when you have the living confirmation *your hardship* matters more than others by the Nahel Bond granted to you on the virtue of your *suffering*? This amount of validation in one’s perceived sense of tragedy and suffering would cause most people to turn terribly inward and forget other people can suffer too, even if no spren see fit to *reward* them for it. Heck, I am not even sure it is such a good thing to have your personal hardships be given so much lampshade.
That’s exactly the kind of commentary I hope Brandon will include within RoW: what it means not to be chosen to how you, as an individual, come to perceive your personal plights and what it means to be chosen and get this validation? Aren’t we all trying to push forward our personal issues as the ones which matter the most? I find this a really interesting avenue to explore, but it may not fit within the planning.
@3. i love your random theory there. makes sense based on the history rock told the others, and fits with that narrative as well. i wonder where the inter-mixing with the parsh came i to play..
@6 – Number 4 is way off, IMO. Syl has already stated that she is ok with killing. The general consensus for the 4th Ideal is something like “I will accept that I cannot protect everyone.” Something along the lines that you will lose people and must accept that.
The Releasers continually get a bad rep that I am really glad these epigraphs were included. It makes me look forward all the more to learn more about Malata, and meet new dustbringers!
I think the Truthwatcher that mentioned “foreseeing this”, is referring to expectations and not actually seeing the future. I think it was to serve a dual function of giving us some info while still making us wondering whether or not Renarin was a true “normal” Truthwatcher.
I do believe the Elsecallers were among the number of scholarly radiant orders. I think the Truthwatchers, Elsecallers, and Lightweavers are the main ones. Potentially skybreakers, bondsmiths, and willshapers. Can’t wait to find out more about the orders!
@7 – Bare in mind that we only got a glimpse of the thoughts of past Radiants. What you just wrote is the complete antithesis of the Windrunner order, for instance. I can’t see a way for them to swear those oaths about protecting people and then forget about the people? That doesn’t make sense.
Miscellaneous thoughts –
-Maybe ‘I don’t care’ is the secret – that this person, in fact doesn’t really care about anybody or anyone. (That said, despite the possible sociopathy here, this is probably one of my favorite recordings, perhaps due to the contrariness lol). I kind of love the Willshapers too.
-It’s ironic that there are no Edgedancer recordings, given that their whole mission is to remember those who are forgotten (in fact, the Dustbringiner recording about the husband and children is one I would have guessed was an Edgedancer).
@3 whitespine
Interesting theory on the horneaters. I think they were radiants too, because if I recall correctly, there was a shardplate someone remarked looked a lot like a horneater blade, so that makes me think a horneater actually was a radiant and shaped his blade to take that form, but that’s still totally conjecture on my part. I wish you luck with your theory!
@7 – I don’t know that we can make sweeping judgments based on what they recorded for posterity in a moment of crisis and their immediate concerns. All of which DO impact the common folk, in the end. Not to mention the value that knowledge could have for the common folk NOW.
Certainly, some orders are likely more esoteric than others, though.
@10 and with regard to thoughts in the original post: I definitely took the smallest emerald entry to be what Alice thought was “least likely”, namely that this Truthwatcher did see the actual future and was scared of it – that even then there was some prejudice against seeing the future. But, maybe that really did happen only after the Hierocracy, so who knows.
@11 and 12, I agree. I also agree with you Austin that Oath 4 will not be about not killing. Interesting thought @6, but I think it would be impractical for an entire order of Radiants who are dedicated to fighting the Voidbringers to commit to not killing any of the Voidbringers.
@8 and 13. Thanks FSS, we’ll see what happens. In this theory, the intermixing still happened earlier and they were a distinct group by the time they first came to Urithiru.
Scath, I will say that my theory doesn’t mean none of the Horneaters were knights, just that as a “people” they lived in Urithiru and then some of them would naturally be knights as people from all lands were also knights. Urithiru was just their “home”, too. My main concern with it, besides potentially being way off in timing for when they settled in the “peaks” – although, Urithiru could have just been their “1st peak” that was truly prepared by a god/spren – is actually the similarity this would give them to the //Aiel// of WoT. (spoiler if Sylas is hanging around this reread, haha). // This would mean another group that has red hair, taller than normal, wandered because they weren’t welcome and settled in an inhospitable place who then largely avoided conflict with other nations and only warred with themselves. And now we would add that they also used to be the “servants” of the magic users.// Obviously Brandon is influenced by other series he has read (and worked on) but I don’t know if he would make a group so similar. And yes, obviously there are many differences, too, it just has a similar flavor.
@15 whitespine
No problemo and totally respect your theory. This response is just to explain a bit more why I think the way I do. I think Glys’s corruption causes Renarin’s illumination surge to function as the voidbringer version. I think normal Truthwatcher’s illumination provides remote viewing at a distance, or illusions. I think the Truthwatcher in the gemstone was saying he figured the issues would be coming, but didn’t say anything because of the potential fall out among the others. For instance I could totally see a relationship between two friends failing horribly, but if I said it to them, they would be upset at me for not believing in them, or seemingly jinxing their relationship. Then when the resulting relationship failed, I can’t say I foresaw it, because they would be upset at me for not saying anything. So I foresaw it, but cannot tell anyone. I think this was also to keep us guessing regarding Renarin. Well a past Truthwatcher could potentially see the future, so Renarin seeing the future must be normal, when the reality is it is not. But at this juncture all of that is totally conjecture on my part, so I see where you are coming from and understand why you came to the conclusions you have.
Welllllll, Jasnah has said that not all orders will be going around swinging a blade, though I took that more to mean people within the various orders can choose for themselves whether they want to engage in combat or not. For instance Wyndle wanted to bond an elderly gardner. Syl also bonded an elderly individual that did not last long in combat. Now having said that, I do agree I doubt there is an entire order who’s oath prevents them from fighting at all.
Ah, regarding the horneaters I understand now. Interesting thoughts!
I said this before in a comment for an earlier chapter, but I think the 4th Ideal will be something about admitting to yourself that you can’t save everyone, that some people are beyond your reach, beyond saving.
Taking into account that the ideals can be personalized (as we see with Teft’s Third Ideal), Kaladin’s Fourth would be something like “I will admit that there are some people I cannot save… but that doesn’t mean I will stop trying.”
@9: On the fourth ideal, I like the one saying, “I will accept the choices others make even if it results in their death” or “I cannot protect people from their own personal choices”. It means to highlight the fact Kaladin cannot protect the Parshendis after they have chosen to attack Elhokar, just as he cannot protect Adolin who is dying nor Dalinar who is far away. All of his oaths, so far, have been about him, about his perception. I thought it was time to add other people’s perception as part of protecting is to admit when you have to… let go and allows for others to make their own choices and their own mistakes.
@11: And yet the Windrunner’s epigraph was solely about himself, his oaths, not about the people left behind. That’s the thing, when such a huge lampshade is being put on your own personal problems, you end up seeing nothing else but those personal problems. Sure, Kaladin thinks about others, but in Kholinar and Shadesmar, he doesn’t think others have the right to make their own call because he cannot accept HE could lose someone and HE would feel guilty about it. His altruism then becomes terribly personal and something which relates to his own person as opposed to others.
Part of being altruism is to allow others to live outside what you want them to do. And that’s what Kaladin and this other Windrunner have been struggling with: the fact others may not want their protection or what they perceive as protection. Kaladin is currently enforcing his protection onto others without realizing maybe they don’t want it nor asked for it. That’s what I think he needs to learn.
@14: I am merely observing the fact not many of the Radiants who chose to record their thoughts had thoughts for the regular folks. Or at least, the ones Brandon chose to present.
@17: I have a different opinion on the 4th oath, I think it is the opposite of what you are suggesting. I don’t think it is about accepting some people cannot be saved, I think it is about accepting some people may not want you to save them, about accepting others have the right to make decisions which would endanger them, they have the right to move away from your protection. It fits with the other Windrunner, wondering how he is to swear the 4th oath as shouldn’t be protecting people?
Hence, I think the 4th oath is about giving other people’s agency. Kaladin’s struggles are broader than accepting people he wants to protect may die, they are about accepting others can make choices which may result in their death. And he has to let them do it.
Like Moash. Like the Parshendis.
I think.
The recording from the Dustbringer who thanked her husband and wife gave me the impression that the husband was not a KR. Not sure why I got that impression, but I did. In a similar vein, I wonder how many KR did marry and have families? And what percentage who did marry, married another KR. If they did marry a KR, would it be more common to marry a KR who was in the same Order or a different Order? I think it would be better to marry somebody in a different Order. Sometimes people in the same Order may have the same characteristics and that may not be the best thing for a health marriage. Also, I wonder how much adjustment there would be on the non-KR spouse. Further, I wonder how whether children of a KR (either one parent is a KR or both parents are KR) are more, less or equally likely to become a KR in their own right.
Thanks for reading my musings.
AndrewHB
aka the musespren
@18 – You have some good insight on the altruism of the oaths, but again, you’re going off on one individual Windrunner’s brief message left behind. One that concerns abandoning the tower for good. I have no problem with that person leaving a personal message about missing the jump off the tower. It has nothing to do with their oaths as a Windrunner. It’s a person saying goodbye to a home.
@19 Good questions!
I don’t have much time, nor access to the text at the moment and will hopefully be able to provide some quotes later, but concerning the accidental removal of all parsh forms when BAM was captured – there is some oblique info in WoR in Eshonai’s chapters’ epigraphs and a bit in her PoV. It has to do with how forms were _forced_ on the Last Legion and how they seemed unable to change forms – even normal ones, of their own volition, until somebody discovered how to assume the dullform. Or, at least, that’s how I interpreted the corresponding hints.
I conclude from this that BAM was Connected to all the parsh at the time in a way that was somewhat similar to the Radiants connection to their spren, only in the opposite direction, so that lobotomization of the parsh due to her imprisonment is the dark mirror to the killing of the Radiant spren during the Recreance.
The Last Legion, who managed to disassociate themselves from BAM by assuming the dullform on their own were fine, as we know. But it also explains why they had to laborously rediscover non-void forms over the centuries – their rebellious ancestors no longer possessed the knowledge of how to change into them because BAM had already robbed them of it.
I also still think that Melishi was bonded to the Sibling and that Ishar and Nale had something to do with Honor’s dying rants and the Recreance. They may have also done their best to foster the disagreements among the Radiants. I mean, Nale could have been a Skybreaker member with nobody being the wiser and perfectly placed to be an agent povocateur.
Yea, I’d also love to find out what it was that the ancient parsh were trying to get to during their doomed push to the Feverstone Keep and whether it has anything to do with Iri’s sudden about-face this time around. They are in Cultivation’s sphere of influence, too and the one human nation which historically worldhopped beyond the Rosharan system. I can’t help but wonder if it is all in Cultivation’s game-plan and whether the Iri aren’t intending to pull up the stakes and move on to their next Land, somehow. Lift is a Rall Elorim native, isn’t she? She could also be instrumental in showing us whatever is brewing up there. It is not called “The City of Shadows” for nothing, I Imagine. And, yea, the whole so far mysterious drama of Evi and Toh could be connected, too.
There is the one thing that would probably be found somewhere around the area, if Dalinar’s vision was even a little bit accurate – and that’s the stash of the hundreds of missing shards.
Whitespine @3:
I had a somewhat different idea that the Horneaters were the descendants of the young parsh children who escaped lobotomization and were taken in by some human faction for a time, but they and their decsnedants continued to suffer under the stigma of their descent, hence search for a land of their own. In Eshonai’s PoV in WoR it is mentioned that the first change was an important milestone of growing up among the Listeners, so I figured that maybe BAM didn’t get to the parsh kids until they reached a certain age. But IIRC, a Horneater Radiant appears in one of Dalinar’s visions, so that couldn’t have been the case.
John @@.-@:
A very interesting idea, but I don’t see how Nale could have been unaware? Still, the name similarities could hint at some connection between them.
My own theory for the Fourth Windrunner Ideal (or rather the theory I accept, since I didn’t come up with it) is “I will accept the protection of my allies when I cannot protect myself”. So it’s less about there being people who shouldn’t be protected, and more about the Windrunner accepting that he can’t always be the strong one, that sometimes he is going to need saving. Like at the climax of Oathbringer, where Kaladin couldn’t save his friends from the Fused and Dalinar saved him and them.
@23 except if that was true, than he would have gotten his oath when Dalinar DID save him. Syl’s words were “it is fine, for now, someone else will protect you” no, i am going with the idea that it is he cannot protect everyone. It goes with his issues of not being able to protect the parsh and wallguard, not being able to protect Adolin, AND goes back to his father’s words that he has to grow callosues, that he cannot save everyone, no matter how hard he tries.
@24 – Not to mention that Kaladin clearly knew what the 4th Ideal was but couldn’t bring himself to commit to it. This was before Dalinar saved him, so that had nothing to do with his struggle. Like you said, Kaladin was reeling from the death of the parsh and the wall guard. He knows, deep down, that he can’t protect everyone. I imagine it’s going to take a while before he accepts that.
@19: I love your questions, so count me in among those who are asking. We may however have a few answers with the Shallan/Adolin marriage within RoW. Hopefully, we’ll get to see how Adolin adjusts towards not only being married to a near God, but also being the sole normal human within his closed ones. He’s kind of the only character with an existing narrative currently in the position to provide such viewpoint.
@20: Fair enough. I may be putting too much into one Windrunner’s words.
My own personal theory however remains Windrunners need to accept other people have the right to make choices which could result in their death or cause them harm.
For instance, in WoR, Kaladin cannot accept Moash has chosen to betray Dalinar and Elhokar. He prefers trying to make the choices Moash had already made disappear as opposed to merely admit Moash has chosen to walk on a different path and this path needs him to deal with him.
Later in OB, Kaladin screams to everyone to stop fighting. Again, he is pushing what he wants into others: he doesn’t want to see his friends fight one another, but he doesn’t realize this isn’t his call nor his decision. What happened in the Kholinar palace wasn’t about Kaladin, it wasn’t about him, his guilt nor his pain, it was about one group of people he once was friendly with choosing to attack him and another group of people he was friendly with. None of it has anything to do with him, but he makes it about him by refusing to accept Sha and the Parshendis have the agency to make their own choices. And those choices may not be the one he wants them to make.
So that’s my current speculation when it comes to the Windrunner’s 4th ideal: accept the choice is not always theirs to make. They cannot protect people from their own decision making.
Like Adolin choosing to die when mortally wounded. Like Dalinar not being where he wants him to be so he could protect him.
@24: I agree about @23, but I would push it one notch further. Many of the times Kaladin faced what he perceived as failure came from needing to accept other people have made decisions which goes against his desire to protect them.
Perhaps my version of the 4th ideal fits with the most commonly accepted one. It may be the real 4th ideal will be a combination of the two or that both versions essentially state the same. The epigraph however makes me think part of the 4th ideal is to accept not everyone can be protected whether due to circumstances or their own personal choices. A Windrunner cannot make decisions for others just as Kaladin cannot make Moash not choose to kill Elhokar nor Sha not choose to follow Moash nor Adolin not ask him to let him die.
@19 AndrewHB
It looks like being around Radiants increases your chances to become a radiant, but does not guarantee you will become a squire, whether or not you will ever advance as a squire, whether or not you will be come a radiant at all and whether or not you will be a radiant of the same order as your parents. It looks like being around radiants only results in an increase of density of spren (potentially certain types) to be around. It is still up to the spren on whether or not you are the type of person they want to bond.
It is fun to try to guess a particular Oath, but they are just vocalizations of an Ideal Concept. Using what we learned in this book from the Skybreakers and Szeth’s Oaths as an example:
Skybreakers:
Oath 2: The Ideal of Justice – I will put the law before all
Oath 3: The Ideal of Dedication – I swear to follow the will of Dalinar Kholin. This is my oath.
Oath 4: The Ideal of Crusade – I will cleanse the Shin of their false leaders, so long as Dalinar Kholin agrees.
Oath 5: Ideal of Law – ?
So for Windrunners it would be something like this:
Oath 2: Ideal of Protection: I will protect those who cannot protect themselves
Oath 3: Ideal of Universality: I will protect even those I hate, so long as it is right
Oath 4: Ideal of Acceptance: (any of the above comments)
I have made a chart listing them this way and it makes a lot of sense. (EdgeDancers Ideal of Rememberance, Ideal of Attention. Bondsmiths Ideal of binding, Ideal of Responsibility etc)
The whole abandoning of Urithru could have been avoided if the first oath had been “I will not microwave fish in the shared break room.”
@29 soursavior
I know crustaceans aren’t fish, but having never microwaved them, if they produce a similar odor to microwaved fish, then that oath maybe problematic on Roshar lol
If there were Unmade at Urithiru Renarin might not be the first Knight with a corrupted spren. That could explain the secret seeing the future ability.
@31 – That seems possible, though all indications so far is that the ability to corrupt spren belongs to Sja-anat. Each Unmade seems to have their own abilities.
My guess on the 4th ideal: I must choose whom to protect and act on that choice even when I want to protect everyone.
My take on the parsh thing is that Ba-Ado was simply providing investiture, thereby enabling the parsh forms of power. Capturing Ba-Ado caused the parsh to default to dullform (which I assume is without a spren, correct me if I’m wrong), but they kept fighting. Melishi then came up with a new plan in a hurry, which was what caused the slave form.
I’ll be honest that I don’t read all the comments in the reread, but am I the only one that thinks the Sibling is the spren of Urithiru? It totally makes sense, to me at least, that Urithiru would develop a spren over time. It further makes sense that this spren would develop into a super-spren since everyone knew and believed in the legendary home of the KR. Because it’s a place, it would be genderless but would need some name to distinguish it from the city, so “Sibling “. It’s even possible that Honor and Cultivation helped to beef up, so to speak, this spren to make it bondable to Bondsmiths. I admit there may be holes in the theory, but it’s what I’m sticking with for the time being lol.
Random thoughts made without going back to review previous threads:
Does this remind anyone else of the Parshendi? Could there be a Listener equivalent archive hidden somewhere waiting to be discovered?
This sort of leap seems like a great test/training exercise for apprentices.
I think the significance here is that person refer to Honor himself, not the Almighty. This seems to imply a larger knowledge of the Cosmere that has since been lost on Roshar.
It’s hard to deal with some of these hints. I want much more of the gem archives than the little snippets we get. It makes my scholar bone tingle something awful.
Thank you for this! I don’t get much from the epigraphs except a broad-strokes sense of what they’re talking about. Having them organized this way really clarifies things.
“Her spren doesn’t exactly help, since Ash is deeply resentful of humans and of Honor, and takes great delight in breaking things.”
Just a little nitpick: Malata’s spren is named “Spark”, and is an ashspren.
WRT the windrunner 4th oath… i agree that respecting agency is part of it, but it cant be all of it. When kaladin fails to speak the oath at the end of the book he lists all the people he thinks he failed to save…that included bridgemen who died in runs, slaves he tried to help escape, the men who helaran killed, the men amaram killed, and tien. Many of those people had very little choice in the circumstances that led to their death. Kaladin still cant get over the fact that they died when he tried to save him.
my personal belief is that the 4th idea is an acknowledgement that you cannot save everyone. Some people will refuse it or insist on their paths, but some will simply be beyond his ability to save. this happens to be the lesson his father tried to impress on him as an apprentice. I find it also noteworthy that his father, when faced with a badly injured Roshone and son, abandoned the boy he could not save in order to tend the man he was capable of keeping alive.
I think its also worth noting that it appears the higher oaths windrunner speak are at east a little tailored to the speaker. Kaladin says “i will protect even those i hate, so long as it is right”. Teft, on the other hand says “i will protect even those i hate, even if the one i hate most is myself”. The exact words are less important than the idea of “yes, everyone is deserving of protection”
@28 I too have a theory regarding Oath progression among Radiants. If anyone wants it I’ll post it.
@41 – Sure?
@35 Delat
You are not alone in thinking the Sibling is connected to Urithiru. In fact it is the prevailing theory that a lot of people prescribe to. As to whether the Sibling arose after Urithiru was made, and is the spren of the tower, that I think is a new theory. I wish you luck with it!
@36 RogerPavelle
I believe that was in reference to the gemstone archive as they vibrate a code that is words, so it would be music of language. However it could be Glys’s corruption and thereby connection with the voidbringers is what allowed Renarin to make such a connection, like the parshendi. Interesting theory!
I agree. I think the knights radiant having a closer level of interaction with the shards that “powered” them resulted in higher cosmere awareness. Add to it willshapers and elsecallers natural ability to worldhop (though limited by their spren), and I would hazard the radiants were very cosmere aware before the desolations destroyed all records.
@37 EvilMonkey
Oh believe me, considering it is mentioned that there are hundreds, I can’t help but hope we will get to read more!
@33 I agree. There’s a huge distance between accepting you can’t protect everyone and choosing who to protect and who to sacrifice. Kaladin would rather die than make that choice. But the second attribute of the Windrunners is leading, and in a war that choice is intrinsic to leadership.
It will be an interesting inversion to have Kaladin start RoW knowing the Ideal. We’re used to our heroes revealing the Ideal as they speak it. I expect Kaladin to at least express the Ideal early on (it would be weird to keep hiding it from the audience) and work toward it in the open.
@29 That should be an amendment to the Constitution
I think the Fourth Ideal is going to be something stronger, as it will be something that they obviously don’t want to accept (“Am I not supposed to want to help people?”)?
Possibly more like, “I will not help those when, in doing so, I put more people in jeopardy.” Basically, you have to go for the greater good. You can see similar conflicts in Asamov’s Laws of Robotics, if you watch “I, Robot”.
I hope its not, because I hate artificial limitations like that. However, it would make a conflict for folks like Kaladin.
@35 – It as been my belief for a while that the Sibling is indeed the spren of Urithiru, and I am not convinced that a Bondsmith (or any other KR) can bond with the Sibling.
@46 That’s an interesting thought. Then, who do you think the other Bondsmithspren are? The Stormfather explicitly says that the Nightwatcher is like him and then refers to the third sibling. I don’t think that we have a WoB that confirms the three Bondsmith Spren, but I always thought it is too obvious not to be true…
@AndrewHB:
We have seen exactly two married Radiants in the SA’s “modern” age. Neither is married to a Radiant.
This is what I meant about the information in WoR concerning the compromised ability of the pre-lobotomization parsh to assume forms:
I think that there is more in the epigraphs, but these quotes make it even clearer than I remembered – Bo-Ado-Mishram was involved in all and any transformations of the parsh at the time of the False Desolation _except_ for those into dullform and mateform. For some reason I thought that the dullform was something that the Lost Legion discovered and that it may not have been known to the other parsh. Maybe there is something to that end in the epigraphs or Eshonai’s other chapters, but I am not going to hunt for citations. But even if it had been widely known, it would have been avoided by them, like the Listeners also tended to do once they rediscovered the other forms. Therefore, abrupt lobotomization of the bulk of the parsh once BAM was imprisoned.
However, both the parsh children who weren’t old enough for their their first transformation _and_ the mateforms must have survived this catastrophe with their cognition intact, just as the Last Legion did. So, were they all butchered by the victorious humans, or what? It occurs to me that Herdazians, while also descended from the singers, have very different markers than the Horneaters, so likely aren’t directly related to them – could it be that they are descended from these survivors? IIRC, Herdaz didn’t exist as a distinct entity during the Silver Kingdoms era…
Oh, and BTW, the aftermath of lobotomization from the PoV of a confused mateform parsh would make a great horror Interlude or novella.
Whitespine @3. I like that theory.
Gepeto @26. Thank you. No matter what we learn of Shallan and Adolin’s marriage in RoW and subsequent books, it will not be the same as what occurred pre-Recreance. There you had numerous KRs from all 10 Orders. Their experiences would be nothing like the new KRs of the current generation. My questions in @19 (although not explicitly stated) wondered about KR of in the past. Not about how the new generation of KRs can adjust to married life.
Thanks for reading my musings.
AndrewHB
aka the musespren
@50: I would assume the hurdles they once had would still apply within the present-day. After all, being married to someone having a higher station than yourself, worst to someone detaining magical powers earned through worthiness, must not have differed all that much from what present-day characters will go through.
I would even argue it may be worst for married couples within the present-day narrative as the Radiants are currently being viewed as “Gods” whereas, pre-Recreance, there were more of them, so the aura around them must have been smaller. Adolin put it quite nicely towards the end of OB: it is a time for Gods, Heralds, and creatures out of legends to arise again. Shallan is one of them, but not him. I somehow doubt regular people viewed the Radiants as “Gods” during a time where they were commonplace, I mean, I could be wrong, but being the very first new Radiants in a world where the word Radiant takes more out of folklore than reality definitely seems like a bigger deal than it once was.
So I do think how Adolin adjusts will be a good indication towards how other people must have adjusted, back then.
So random thought. What if one of the newer windrunners ends up surpassing Kaladin in oaths? For instance lets say Drehy gets to the 4th oath first? Then Kaladin has some internal conflict for not progressing over the year, but then goes to Drehy and he helps him figure out how to get through that oath. Like Syl said, sometimes Kaladin should let people save him for a change. I think that would be a beautiful moment.
@48 Carl
Which I believe is why AndrewHB is curious how it once was. Among the Knights Radiant back then it was an entire institution fully established. Now they are just popping up here and there and trying to establish new traditions. So it looks like AndrewHB was wondering what form of traditions, and functions were in place back then and how those traditions and functions affected the relationships the knights radiant had or didn’t have. Personally I agree it would be interesting to find out, so I really hope we get to see more from the gemstone archive in book 4.
@50 AndrewHB
Those are good points and it also makes me wonder what happens when regular people were potentially enlisted like in Dalinar’s vision. The windrunner was impressed by his combat skills and invited him to Urithiru. Had that actually taken place, and not just been a vision, what would have happened? Could the family have come with a trainee? Would a stipend have been sent back to the farm to help maintain the family while he was away? Do you have to reach a certain level in the structure before your family can join you, or a certain number of oaths? What happens if you want to join up, but don’t want to leave your home? Did the radiants of old allow nascent radiants to “figure things out” on their own, trusting to the spren’s decisions? Or did a radiant trainer set up shop in the home of the newbie to help induct him or her? Or if they began the bond, were they forced to go to Urithiru for training? Whole lot of world building and ancient tradition that would be very interesting to learn, and I hope we learn more in the coming books.
A thought regarding the 4th oath of the Windrunners. I couldn’t help but think of the Serenity prayer. Specifically this part.
God, grant me the serenity
to accept the things I cannot change,
the courage to change the things I can,
and the wisdom to know the difference.
It seems important to me.
Isn’t more like 2000 years ago, not 1,500, at least based on Jasnah’s estimate from the vision? She says that Dovcanti’s epic about the Recreance was written 1,500 years ago.