Greetings, good folk of the fandom! Welcome back to the Oathbringer reread, in which a city goes up in flames and so do your friendly neighborhood rereaders. Well, not quite… This is a tough chapter, though. We return one last time to the Rift, when all the bad things go down.
Reminder: We’ll potentially be discussing spoilers for the entire novel in each reread. There is no wider Cosmere discussion this week, but if you haven’t read ALL of Oathbringer, best to wait to join us until you’re done.
Also, Lyndsey’s back!
Chapter Recap
WHO: Past!Dalinar
WHERE: Rathalas
WHEN: 1162 (About 11 years ago, the same night as chapter 75 and into the following morning)
Dalinar and Sadeas review their battle plan—to completely destroy Rathalas as a message to every highlord in the kingdom that defiance is not an option. They attack immediately, at night; once the walls are taken, the Kholin troops torch the entire city from the top and the bottom. Dalinar takes Kadash and a squad of elites to personally burn out the hiding place where he found Tanalan Sr. 22 years ago. Not long after, he sees Tanalan trying to reach his family in the palace, and brings him up for a final confrontation. Tanalan reveals that the hiding place is now a prison, and he’d put Evi there after she came to him to plead for his surrender. Once her body is recovered, Dalinar instructs his scribes to let it be known that Evi had been assassinated the previous night, allowing everyone to think that Rathalas was destroyed as retribution.
Truth, Love, and Defiance
Title: An Animal
“I,” Dalinar said softly, “am an animal.”
“What—”
“An animal,” Dalinar said, “reacts as it is prodded. You whip it, and it becomes savage. With an animal, you can start a tempest. Trouble is, once it’s gone feral, you can’t just whistle it back to you.”
AA: Under the influence of the Thrill, he’s not exactly wrong. Tanalan didn’t realize what he was starting.
AP: Not wrong at all. And after Dalinar realizes what he’s done in killing the prisoners, he believes it himself as well.
Heralds
Chana (Dustbringers, Guard, Brave & Obedient, Spark, Fire) and Nalan (Skybreakers, Judge, Just and Confident, Vapor, Smoke/Fog)
AA: Like last week, I don’t see much of Nalan except as Judgement Descendeth, and the antithesis of Justice when Dalinar orders the envoy shot without a meeting. Oh, and there’s plenty of smoke to go around…
Chana, like Taln in the previous chapter, is everywhere. The soldiers on the wall guarding their homes. Dalinar’s elites guarding him. The courage and obedience on both sides. Evi’s courage in making one last effort to negotiate peace. Sparks. Fire.
Fire everywhere.
Buy the Book
Oathbringer
Icon
Kholin Glyphpair, inverse for a Dalinar flashback
Thematic Thoughts
AA: This week, we’re using this section to collect most of the discussion of the battle, starting with the planning and moving all the way through until the fighting is over.
L: I’m going to be doing a bit of talking about the military strategies at play here, and how they relate to the ethics of the situation at hand. War and ethics are very sticky conversations to have, so be aware of that going in.
The generals had drawn up a new set of battle plans to take the city walls, as instructed by Sadeas. Dalinar inspected and made a few changes, but told them to suspend making plans to march down into the city and clear it. He had something else in mind.
AA: “Something else” indeed. Soulcasters who can make oil are tremendously useful when you want lots of fire.
“An envoy is leaving the city. Flying the flag of truce.”
“Shoot them dead,” Dalinar said calmly.
“Sir?”
“Arrows, woman,” Dalinar said. “Kill anyone who comes out of the city, and leave their bodies to rot.”
…
Sadeas nodded in approval…
AA: The plan, though they haven’t explicitly said so, is that every single person dies. No negotiations, no surrender, no survivors. You can sort of (maybe) see Dalinar’s point in destroying the envoy, and we won’t learn until the end of the chapter what the envoy was there to discuss.
AP: I think that plan is pretty clear, and definitely so after the order to kill the envoy. I do wonder why no one noticed that Evi was missing though. Surely she should have been missed prior to the battle?
AA: She should have, and the fact that her guard wasn’t standing outside her tent should also have been noticed. But Dalinar was focused on his own goals, and assumed that she would go where he’d ordered—and stay there. I don’t think he spared her another thought after ordering her away. It seems that no one else thought to check on her later, or send her breakfast, or anything.
L: I’d assume that everyone was just way too busy preparing for the upcoming battle to even consider her. Even the people preparing food and such would be focused on the soldiers, if they weren’t going off to fight themselves. Regarding the killing of the envoys though… this is a d*ck move by all accounts, and (as we will see) very unsound from a military point of view. How differently would this battle have played out, should Dalinar have done the right thing and actually learned that his wife was a prisoner of war?
“I’ve been able to stall the scribes,” Sadeas whispered, “as you ordered. Gavilar doesn’t know that you live. His orders from before were to wait and lay siege.”
…
“Do you think he could do what needs to be done here?” Sadeas fell silent.
“No,” he finally said. “No, not now. I wonder if you can either. This will be more than just death. It will be complete destruction.”
…
“There has to be someone in this kingdom capable of doing what needs to be done, and it can’t be the man sitting on the throne. Continue to hold the scribes back; it will be better if my brother can reasonably disavow what we’re about to do.”
AA: In those ellipses, Dalinar and Sadeas have a conversation about Gavilar, trust, betrayal, and plausible deniability.
AP: Saying without saying. Apart from the complete evil they participate in here, they do hold Gavilar in high regard, and want to insulate him from the consequences of their actions.
AA: It’s one of the few positive notes in this chapter, isn’t it?
L: This is such a difficult conversation, because often in war terrible things must be done in order to bring about peace. The question is, where is the line? How many innocents must die before that line is crossed from “necessary casualties” to “evil act?” I don’t envy anyone, either in real life or fiction, who needs to make a decision such as that.
“Time to attack.”
Amaram turned from where he stood with the other generals. “Now, Dalinar? At night?”
“The bonfires on the wall should be enough.”
“To take the wall fortifications, yes,” Amaram said. “But Brightlord, I don’t relish fighting down into those vertical streets in the night.”
Dalinar shared a look with Sadeas. “Fortunately, you won’t have to…”
AA: Hello there, slimeball Amaram. (I hate that man…) His presence here, though, explains a lot of his remarks to Dalinar in previous conversations.
AP: Yeeaahh… it’s got to be difficult for anyone who knew Dalinar at the Rift to square that with Dalinar on the Shattered Plains, much less Dalinar the Bondsmith.
AA: Exactly.
The other thing I wanted to note about this moment is that a few paragraphs earlier, Sadeas was worried that word would get back to Gavilar before morning and he’d tell them not to do it. A lot of the officer’s wives had spanreeds linked to Kholinar, and there’s no saying some of them wouldn’t be sending messages to keep the court informed of what was happening. Rather than doing an end run around direct orders, they’re going to implement their plan before those orders can come.
L: “Better to ask forgiveness than permission,” indeed. There’s a lot of quotes from Sun Tzu’s Art of War that are applicable to Dalinar’s strategy here, but this one is particularly relevant to this part:
He will win who has military capacity and is not interfered with by the sovereign.
AA: Wow. That gives me such weird vibes. Granted that the sovereign isn’t necessarily the best strategist, he’s (in most ways) still the one with the moral responsibility for what is done by his generals, and therefore ought to have (at least) veto power when they go too far. But you’re right, Lyndsey, it’s not easy to tell where the lines should be drawn. We get a little better perspective from hindsight, but even then it’s not easy.
No Shardbearers led this time; Dalinar was too weak, and his Plate was in shambles. Sadeas never did like exposing himself too early, and Teleb couldn’t rush in alone.
They did it the mundane way, sending men to be crushed by stones or impaled by arrows as they carried ladders.
…
Dalinar strode across the field, passing fallen men bloody and dead. They’d died almost in ranks where waves of arrows had struck. He also passed a cluster of corpses in white, where the envoy had been slaughtered earlier.
AA: Sigh. While I understand their reasoning in not leading with Shardbearers this night, their willingness to send so many of their own men to die for the sake of attacking right now really grates on me. (And I think it’s supposed to.) They could have chosen to give Dalinar time to recover, and they could have worked on regrowing his Shardplate. They could even have sent some scouts back along Dalinar’s route to retrieve as many original pieces as possible to reduce the regrowth time. But they wanted to attack before Gavilar could stop them, because they are convinced that they need to give the entire kingdom a Lesson.
AP: They couldn’t though. Not and keep Gavilar ignorant of what they were doing. And they knew it. The high casualties on their side underscore what a heinous move this is.
AA: Right. They aren’t willing to risk Gavilar finding out too soon, so off goes the Light Brigade. As a side note… Something interesting came across my messages a while back that I think bears some attention in this regard. Brandon is an American citizen, raised with American values; while he does a better job than most of us of “getting into the head” of characters from a vastly different society, his ideals of honor and virtue are, at the core, essentially based in Judeo-Christian values, or what we commonly see as Western values. What Dalinar and Sadeas do in this scene is, I think, intended to make us react negatively.
This creates an interesting conflict of perspective when you get into a discussion with someone from a completely different background and value set: In some cultures, what they do here is the reasonable and correct action, and Gavilar shouldn’t try to stop them. They shouldn’t feel shame for these actions, because it was the right thing to do. I’m never quite sure what to do with that; in the interests of civil debate, I have to try to see their perspective, but at the same time it’s very jarring. You run into the conflict between “I strongly believe this is the right thing to do” and “You have a right to your own beliefs.”
It’s really hard, especially in a large group discussion, to get people to acknowledge that a) it’s okay to be sure you’re right, and at the same time b) the other guy has a right to disagree with you. (Worth noting: If you have an opinion at all, you should think you’re right. You’d be foolish to hold a position you think is wrong. That doesn’t mean you have to hate people who hold a different opinion.)
L: Perhaps it’s just because I’ve studied a lot of historical wars, but I can at least understand their reasoning here. It’s like Ender Wiggin’s philosophy from Ender’s Game.
“I destroy them. I make it impossible for them to ever hurt me again. I grind them and grind them until they don’t exist.”
If we’re going to look at real life analogies, we need look no further than the end of World War 2. There are a lot of parallels that can be drawn between Rathalas and Hiroshima/Nagasaki. The allies could have chosen purely military targets for the atomic bombs, but they didn’t, in order to send a definitive message. They believed that the war would never end unless such a message was conveyed, and the bombing of Pearl Harbor was certainly in the backs of their minds when making that decision.
Terrible, terrible things are done in war in the name of trying to achieve peace. Innocents murdered. Cities wiped off maps. Who can say what is right, and what is wrong? Is it possible that if Dalinar hadn’t done what he had, that this spark of rebellion would have fueled a flame of war that would result in millions more dead? Would more innocents have suffered? There’s no way to know for sure.
AA: Too true. Even hindsight isn’t really 20/20, because you can’t know what would have happened if you’d done something else. We can say “might have” all day, but it’s still only a possibility, and “might not have” is just as valid.
Well, enough philosophizing (temporarily, anyway). Moving on…
He stopped at the edge of the cliff, looking down at a city built on platforms, rising up along the widening sides of the rift of stone. It was little wonder they thought so highly of themselves as to resist. Their city was grand, a monument of human ingenuity and grit.
“Burn it,” Dalinar said.
AA: Military decision or not, this just hurts my heart. I hate to see beautiful things destroyed for the sake of making a statement.
L: A statement that could save other lives, so understandable, but… yes. Seeing monuments, artwork, architecture that’s stood for hundreds (or thousands) of years destroyed always hurts my soul too.
“There are thousands of people in there, sir,” Teleb said softly from his side. “Tens of thousands.”
“This kingdom must know the price of rebellion. We make a statement today.”
“Obey or die?” Teleb asked.
“The same deal I offered you, Teleb. You were smart enough to take it.”
“And the common people in there, the ones who didn’t get a chance to choose a side?”
Sadeas snorted from nearby. “We will prevent more deaths in the future by letting every brightlord in this kingdom know the punishment for disobedience.”
AA: For the record, I love Teleb and I hate Sadeas, because even more than the city itself, these are people. Teleb considers the individuals involved—tens of thousands of people who have no influence over the decisions of their highlord, who would perhaps willingly or even gladly be part of Gavilar’s kingdom. Sadeas, as we’ve seen many times before, doesn’t care about people as such. They’re just numbers, unless he knows them personally (and sometimes even then). Whether it’s the innocent civilians dying to prove a point here, or the bridgemen dying because they make a good distraction for the Parshendi archers, Sadeas only values people for what they’re worth to him.
Dalinar… I’m angry at him, though he has some mitigating circumstances: He was ambushed and nearly killed, and he’s influenced deeply by the Thrill. That doesn’t make him less culpable, but it does make him slightly more sympathetic. But I deeply dislike this Dalinar.
AP: At the same time, Teleb goes along with it. He is also culpable in these atrocities. I also disagree that Dalinar is at all sympathetic here. Any sympathy I have for him is for the man I know he will become, not who he is now. All Alethi are influenced by the Thrill, not all of them commit war crimes.
AA: I’m not sure I’d concede that Teleb went along with it. He didn’t stop it… but he couldn’t have. He’s one of Dalinar’s elites, but he’s no highprince to overrule Dalinar and Sadeas. Could he have argued more? Maybe, but it still wouldn’t have done any good.
L: He could have walked away, not taken part. It wouldn’t have stopped the atrocities that occurred, but at least he wouldn’t have been a part of them.
AA: But that could be said of every single soldier on the field.
As for Dalinar… considering that I find him only slightly more sympathetic than Sadeas, of all people, that’s really not saying much for him! I just have to acknowledge that his physical injuries, combined with anger over the betrayal by his scouts and the double-cross by Tanalan, makes him more susceptible to bad decisions anyway, urged on by an oddly ever-present Thrill. So there are some minimally mitigating factors. Sort of.
L: It looks like I’m the only one who thinks that in addition to the Thrill and the anger from the ambush, there’s a valid military strategy here. Right or wrong? Who knows. But valid from a strategic perspective.
AP: It’s definitely a military strategy. The argument is whether it is a right/just course of action.
AA: Which brings us to the burning question: How do you balance “valid military strategy” with “just course of action”? The more I think about it, the less clear the answers become. I hate to say it, but I can almost approve Sadeas’s rationale more than Dalinar’s. Sadeas wants to make the point that it’s just not worth defying Gavilar’s rule, and he’ll do whatever it takes to make that point. Dalinar is just angry and wants to pay them back for the double-cross. (I really hate to give credit to Sadeas!)
L: It’s possible that that’s all that is going on in Dalinar’s head… but I think subconsciously the strategy is there too.
Captainlord Kadash had fifty for him, along with two barrels of oil.
…
Dalinar led his group down one level to a location he remembered so well: the hidden door set into the wall. …
“Light those,” he said, pointing to the barrels. “Roll them down and burn out anyone hiding inside.”
…
Nobody tried to flee, though he thought he heard cries of pain inside. Dalinar watched as long as he could, until soon the smoke and heat drove him back.
AA: Oh, there’s Kadash! He’ll be back in a bit… Perhaps it’s worth reminding ourselves that he was present at the previous Rift battle, but at that time he was body-guarding Gavilar and wasn’t with Dalinar when he broke into this tunnel. He may or may not know what Dalinar is trying to do here.
AP: At the same time, at least Kadash tries to atone for his errors here by becoming an Ardent. It certainly doesn’t absolve him completely, but in contrast to Teleb and Sadeas, at least he is trying to do better.
AA: I’m going to address that further down (in Squires & Sidekicks), because if you won’t give Teleb a pass, I don’t think Kadash gets one either.
AP: I absolutely do not give Kadash a pass. I merely note that of the people involved here, he is the one we know makes substantive personal changes as a result of this event. Dalinar does as well, but only by virtue of forgetting that it ever happened.
L: I’m with Aubree on this one. He is making real efforts to atone for his sins and not just conveniently “forgetting” (supernaturally or not) that they happened.
Just below the cliff here—one tier down into the city—was a beautiful white building. A palace. Farther out along the walkways, a group of people fought to reach the building. The wooden walkways were on fire, and preventing their access. Shocked, Dalinar recognized Tanalan the younger from their encounter earlier.
Trying to get into his home? Dalinar thought. Figures darkened the building’s upper windows; a woman and children. No. Trying to get to his family.
Tanalan hadn’t been hiding in the saferoom after all.
AA: Here’s the first big hint that the saferoom was significant in a way Dalinar didn’t expect. Whoever was screaming, it wasn’t Tanalan, nor his family. Who could it be?
Dalinar released a long breath, suddenly feeling his exhaustion even more deeply. “It is enough,” he said, turning toward Sadeas. “Let the rest of the people of the city escape out the mouth of the canyon below. We have sent our signal.”
“What?” Sadeas said, hiking over. …
“Dalinar…” Sadeas said. “I prepared a battalion below, with archers, per your orders.”
“My orders?”
“You said to ‘Kill anyone who comes out of the city and leave their bodies to rot.’ I had men stationed below; they’ve launched arrows in at the city struts, burned the walkways leading down. This city burns from both directions—from underneath and from above. We can’t stop it now.”
AA: Too late to change your vicious strategy now, Dalinar. Too late in so many, many ways…
AP: Yep. However, this is telling and speaks to the character of both Dalinar and Sadeas. Dalinar hesitates, and relents. Sadeas is all in.
L: I’m glad to see this from Dalinar. Not only is it showing a spark of humanity, but… I hate to harp on it, but this too is a good military strategy. Allow your enemy a way to retreat and they won’t feel trapped, and won’t fight as hard. However, Sadeas, moron that he is, took Dalinar’s previous orders and ran all out with them without even stopping to question. A good soldier follows orders, but a great soldier questions those orders when they seem unsound if there is time to do so. Not every leader is infallible, and mistakes can be made.
AA: Does this go back to “Sadeas wants to send a message and doesn’t care about anything else?” It seems that his concern is with the long term effect, not the short term, so it’s valid. On the other hand, does it create a different long-term problem? As a visual symbol, will it make people surrender quickly, or will it make them resist more strongly because they assume they’re all dead anyway?
Dalinar set his jaw. Earlier today, the soldiers of his army—so carefully trained over the years to resist pillaging and the slaughter of civilians—had burned a city to the ground. It would ease their consciences to think that first, the highlady had been murdered.
AA: I don’t even know what to say about this. All those years of training his soldiers not to kill civilians, thrown away because he was angry, and now justified to them by a lie. While I can be glad that Gavilar and Dalinar had become more restrained after those early years, presumably in the interests of appearing benevolent compared to tradition (or something), the contrast with this battle is harsh.
AP: It absolutely is, and that’s the point, I think. It’s also a very weak lie. The Highlady was killed so every citizen of Rathalas had to die?
L: Well yeah. A noble’s life is worth way more than a simple commoner, duh. (Tons of sarcasm here in case that wasn’t clear.)
Stories & Songs
AA: This doesn’t really quite feel like the right place for the Thrill discussion, but… it is the influence an Unmade, so we’ll go with it.
He should hurt more. Shouldn’t he? Storms … he was so numb, he could barely feel anything, aside from that burning within, simmering deep down.
The Thrill was an unsatisfied lump inside Dalinar, but he was wrung out, worn down. So he continued to wait until finally, Teleb and Sadeas joined the fight…
Kadash’s men shot them down with shortbows. That annoyed Dalinar; all of this fighting, and nothing with which to feed the Thrill.
He drew his lips to a line, and shoved down the Thrill. He would not let himself enjoy this. That single sliver of decency he could keep back.
Wood cracked as more sections of city collapsed. The Thrill surged, and Dalinar pushed it away. “We’ve gone too far.”
Dalinar could feel that heat, so terrible. It mirrored a sense within him. The Thrill … incredibly … was not satisfied. Still it thirsted. It didn’t seem … didn’t seem it could be satiated.
Tanalan died with a smile on his lips. Dalinar stepped back, suddenly feeling too weak to stand. Where was the Thrill to bolster him?
Dalinar barely had the strength to stand. The Thrill had abandoned him, and that left him broken, pained.
AA: Okay, that’s a lot of quotations… but it’s interesting to read them all together. It almost looks deliberate—pushing him, supporting him, driving him, and then at the end dropping him, so that he’s left needing another fix.
AP: It reads to me that the Thrill drops him because he stops actively fighting. It’s trying to push him to become more involved.
L: I could see it going either way. Its motives are just so… foreign to us that it’s hard to get a read on it.
Relationships & Romances
“You should not have betrayed me,” Dalinar whispered, raising Oathbringer. “At least this time, you didn’t hide in your hole. I don’t know who you let take cover there, but know they are dead. I took care of that with barrels of fire.”
Tanalan blinked, then started laughing with a frantic, crazed air. “You don’t know? How could you not know? But you killed our messengers. You poor fool. You poor, stupid fool.”
Dalinar seized him by the chin, though the man was still held by his soldiers. “What?”
“She came to us,” Tanalan said. “To plead. How could you have missed her? Do you track your own family so poorly? The hole you burned … we don’t hide there anymore. Everyone knows about it. Now it’s a prison.”
…
“Go back,” he shouted at his elites. “Search that hole. Go…” He trailed off.
AA: Poor, stupid fool indeed. Too late…
Dalinar is genuinely shocked and horrified at the thought that he killed Evi. I’m glad to see that much. I guess.
AP: To tie this in with the above, the Thrill also could not withstand the shock of Evi’s loss. Dalinar isn’t a complete monster, but damn.
Fool woman. The scribes didn’t know Evi well enough. She hadn’t been a traitor—she’d gone to the Rift to plead for them to surrender. She’d seen in Dalinar’s eyes that he wouldn’t spare them. So, Almighty help her, she’d gone to do what she could.
AA: For all the flaws in their relationship, Dalinar did understand his wife, and she understood him.
L: Yeah. Poor thing. I have to wonder if, deep down, she suspected that this would wind up being a suicide mission, but felt strongly enough about it to risk it regardless.
AP: She’s not stupid, she understood the risk. One of her main issues is that others underestimate her capacity and capabilities because she doesn’t know the language or culture. The fact that she does it anyway speaks to her underlying courage.
This is your fault, he thought at her. How dare you do this? Stupid, frustrating woman.
This was not his fault, not his responsibility.
AA: GAAHHHHHH! Dalinar, you rat. Although… okay, I have to be fair. It was her decision to go to Tanalan secretly, and without that decision, she would not have been imprisoned in the former saferoom. It was also Tanalan’s decision to imprison her rather than letting her return to Dalinar alone. And it was Dalinar’s decision not to accept any envoy from the city. This is not a place where it’s easy to define responsibility, to be perfectly honest.
“She did not betray us,” Dalinar snapped. “Keep the discovery of her body quiet, Kalami. Tell the people … tell them my wife was slain by an assassin last night. I will swear the few elites who know to secrecy. Let everyone think she died a hero, and that the destruction of the city today was done in retribution.”
AA: Why is it that “retribution for the assassination of the highprince’s wife” is a more acceptable rationale than “retribution for betrayal and attempted murder of the highprince”?
Anyway, this is probably the story Adolin and Renarin were told: Their mother was killed by assassins from Rathalas, and their father completely demolished the city as payback. It will be interesting to see their reactions to the truth…
L: I wonder how much of that “let them think she died a hero” business is to salvage his own reputation. Is there any glimmer of him wanting her to be remembered this way because he loved her, do you think? Or is it all posturing and excuses to cover his own ass?
AP: I think it’s CYA all the way. He would obviously rather be remembered as someone who loves his wife. But it’s mainly to cover up what really happened.
AA: I think there’s a kernel of concern for Evi in wanting her portrayed as a hero rather than (as Kalami assumed) as a traitor, but I also think that about 2% of that is about loving Evi, and 98% about how it would reflect on him.
Why didn’t he just tell them what he learned from Tanalan, that she went to him in a last-ditch effort to negotiate a surrender, and Tanalan imprisoned her? We’ve speculated a lot on how the world—and particularly his sons—will react to the fact that Dalinar (almost) personally killed Evi, rather than her being assassinated by the Rathalans. Now I wonder how they will react to learning that she died because Tanalan imprisoned an envoy (however unofficial), and that she was only there to make him understand that if he didn’t surrender, all his people would die. I think the boys might find a lot of encouragement in that, rather than merely hating Dalinar for unknowingly killing her in that saferoom. There are multiple layers of lies to be peeled back.
Squires & Sidekicks
“Then know this, Dalinar,” Sadeas said, low, his voice like stone grinding stone. “I would cut out my own heart before betraying Gavilar. I have no interest in being king—it’s a job with little praise and even less amusement. I mean for this kingdom to stand for centuries.”
AA: As we’re told in the earlier books, this is a lot of why Sadeas supports Elhokar; he doesn’t want to be king himself, but he definitely wants the kingdom run his way. He likes the role of “the power behind the throne” because you get most of the power without any of the responsibility when things go poorly. (At least, that’s my interpretation. There’s a point in Words of Radiance where Ialai starts talking about a coup, so maybe that was starting to change.)
L: It’s as if he wants to be like Littlefinger from A Song of Ice and Fire, except Littlefinger was a master at reading people and manipulating them. Sadeas has the desire, but not the skill to pull it off.
Kadash was on his knees, looking woozy, a pile of vomit on the rock before him.
AA: I want to address an earlier exchange here. Kadash has taken an active part in torching the city. Just a few paragraphs prior to this moment, he was standing at the edge of the Rift, looking at the destruction; we’re not told what he’s thinking, but he’s just standing there watching it burn, with no apparent dismay. It’s not until he realizes who was down that tunnel that he has this reaction. He was just fine with destroying the city—he “went along with it” if you will—so he’s just as much guilty of war crimes as anyone. It was only the discovery that he (or at least, the squad of elites under his direct command) had burned Evi alive that turned him away from soldiering and to the ardentia. His “repentance” had little to do with killing tens of thousands of people; it had everything to do with killing one person. Does that make him somehow better than Teleb? I don’t see that it does.
L: We don’t know what he was thinking, though. It’s entirely possible that he was deeply disturbed by everything he was doing and only going along with it because he trusted Dalinar so deeply; but the realization of what happened to Evi was the final push that made him realize his leader wasn’t infallible after all, and if that was true… Without getting a POV section from him, we really can’t know for sure which way his thoughts were going.
AA: Well, I specifically asked Brandon about this after we discussed it back in the Chapter 4 comments. (I got to see him at ECCC 2018 just a few days after that discussion, so it was on my mind!) There were a lot of people saying that Kadash was sickened by the destruction, and I was arguing that it was Evi’s death that turned him. Brandon agreed with my point. Kadash was right there near the end of the battle, bringing the oil and the torches to one of the few areas that wasn’t already on fire, so I don’t think there’s much in his defense.
Teleb’s wife, Kalami, led the discussion; she thought that Evi must have defected.
…
Kalami smiled at him, a knowing—even self-important—smile. His lie would serve a second purpose. As long as Kalami and the head scribes thought they knew a secret, they’d be less likely to dig for the true answer.
AA: I find this scene unsettling. I sort of liked Kalami, but this side of her… I guess it’s pretty typically Alethi, but I find it decidedly unpleasant. Then again, we really saw almost nothing of her until this book; the death of her husband at Narak may have changed her attitudes considerably.
Bruised & Broken
As he departed, he strangely heard the screams of those people in the Rift. He stopped, wondering what it was. Nobody else seemed to notice.
Yes, that was distant screaming. In his head, maybe? They all seemed children to his ears. The ones he’d abandoned to the flames. A chorus of the innocent pleading for help, for mercy.
Evi’s voice joined them.
L: Ouch. At least he feels regret for his actions, and not just because of Evi. He hears the children first.
Diagrams & Dastardly Designs
“You were right about the scouts who turned traitor. We bribed one to turn on the others, and will execute the rest. The plan was apparently to separate you from the army, then hopefully kill you. Even if you were simply delayed, the Rift was hoping their lies would prompt your army into a reckless attack without you.”
AA: I wonder just what it took to bribe that one scout. Was that one just easily bribed by either side, or did they pick a likely candidate and put… pressure… on him/her? Torture wouldn’t at all surprise me as part of Sadeas’s approach to bribery.
Buy the Book
Fate of the Fallen
AP: I assumed whoever flipped first got the deal. But then again, I watch way too much Law & Order.
A Scrupulous Study of Spren
He watched as the fires spread, flamespren rising in them, seeming larger and more … angry than normal.
AA: What do you think? Is Dalinar imagining it, or is it true? If true, why would these flamespren be larger and more angry?
AP: Whenever we have weird spren or other supernatural activity, I immediately assume Unmade influence. They react to emotion, and the Thrill is certainly whipping emotions here into a frenzy.
AA: Good point!
Well. That was… interesting, and somewhat wrenching. It’s just never straightforward, is it? But that’s what makes it good writing—it reflects the complexity of real life, albeit without the same consequences.
Join us again next week for Chapter 77, in which there is not much action, but a whole boatload of information to discuss. For now, dive into the comments and let’s see how we can make sense out of this mess.
Alice is enjoying spring and a few non-crazy days to catch up with life.
Lyndsey is finally back from all her work for Anime Boston. If you’re an aspiring author, a cosplayer, or just like geeky content, follow her work on Facebook or her website.
Aubree is measuring this trench coat for non-owl related reasons.
Thank you Alice, Lyndsey, and Aubree!
You all do a great job each week!
Hard chapters to read and consider, but I enjoyed your commentary.
Military tactics and war time decisions can be both sound and hard to justify. Dalinar’s anger at the betrayal, while justified, guided his decision to kill the envoy. I think he truly regretted that because he could have known Evi was captured. And, once the Thrill wore off, I think he really understood how much too far he went in burning the city.
None of that makes him any less culpable for his decisions, though.
I love Dalinar as a character. Of course, I wouldn’t be able to stand Sadeas in real life, but I loved him as a character, too.
I appreciate Dalinar’s changes from this time through the present. I think the pruning from Cultivation gave him something that many people would benefit from if they could get it, too. He wasn’t wracked by self-loathing and an inability to forgive himself for these deeds, because he didn’t remember them. He just knew he wanted to change. Then, when he began to remember what he had done, he was able to look at the difference in his life from that point to the present and say he used to be that person, he is responsible for what he had done, but he was now no longer the same person.
How many of us struggle with forgiving ourselves for something that we might have done and never move past it because we feel we are either unable to do any better or we just don’t deserve better?
I’m not saying that we should give ourselves a pass, but we also can’t hate ourselves so much for past decisions that we can’t move forward and become better.
There has been a lot of talk about redemption arcs in the comments over the past few weeks. I personally love Dalinar’s redemption. I enjoy Szeth’s being on the side of the Radiants (though I did expect it to take more from him for the Kholins to accept him). I look forward to Kaladin’s redemption from freezing in the battle of Kholinar. And I would be just fine with Moash having a change of heart. Maybe that’s just me, though. . .
I’m not sure that there are people that can’t be redeemed (on the page or irl). But as long as Brandon continues to write it in a way that makes sense for the character, I like it!
Yes. It is one of the reason I have some sympathy for Amaram: he is asked to face trial and execution for what he did to Kaladin by the man he knows actually chose to burn a city filled with civilians. From his perspective, it must have been impossible to accept.
But doesn’t it? Why so many readers brush it away as if it never happened firmly believing Dalinar doesn’t deserve one glimmer of pain nor retribution for what is most obviously his own decision? Why trying to blame Sadeas for what has been Dalinar’s plan? Sure, he was up for it, but he didn’t come up with it. It was all Dalinar, so why are most of those discussions having for aim to diminish Dalinar’s role within the event to make it look as if he were nothing more than a casual by-stander, a victim of both the Thrill and Sadeas?
That’s the part I do not get. Why so much leniency for Dalinar? The man I read here, I HATE him. I want him to die a horrible death: he deserves not drawing another breath for what he does, for what he chooses to do, for how he thinks. And yet, I have to accept he is the greatest man to have ever lived, redeemed, loved by all close to him, I have to accept he can do his “journey” without having to pay for what he does here???
Argh. I just can’t.
And call me an optimistic, but thousand of innocent life is never going to save many more. That’s a price no one should be willing to pay. Gavilar could have negotiated with Tanalan. Heck, they could have just given him Oathbringer back, name him Highprince and by gone with it: no one dies. So how is it the death of the citizens of the Rift somehow prevents more bloodshed when the Kholins are responsible for their rebellion to begin with?
On Teleb: I don’t understand why Teleb didn’t desert after this, why he still held Dalinar within such a high-esteem after this. He knows and he still looks up to *that man*.
On the side note, I do not hate those who think differently than me, I mean, not liking Dalinar isn’t quite the popular opinion. I am just surprised it seems to be the leading opinion and I fervently believe had Brandon told his tale differently, it would be the opposite.
On symathy: I have zero sympathy for Dalinar here not for drunk Dalinar later on. Absolutely none.
On Kadash: I LOVE Kadash. He did bad. He knows it and now he tries to do better by living a life of servitude. That’s what I call a valid redemption! Love him. No asking for way out, no erasing his memories, no shaming his sons, just a man who says “no more” and decides to pay for his crimes. He doesn’t get enough credit here. And yet it is Dalinar who gets all the merit here: he got a cheat code! An easy way out! Finally someone who agrees with me, thank you Lyndsey. Kadash does it all on his own. And yes, it makes him better than Teleb because he, at least, does something following those events. He pays a price. He gives himself in slavery. That’s more than anyone has done, more than what Dalinar does. So yeah, given the cast of characters we have here, I love Kadash for what he does afterwards even if he is *guilty*, at least he *faces consequences*.
They said the fire which killed everyone was an “accident” and everyone bought it because it suited them not to know the truth. Ah poor Adolin when he finds out! Those memories were clearly still difficult and sour for him. I just do not see Adolin reacting positively nor shrugging it away, not after spending so many years worshiping his father, beating his own-self up for not measuring up to him: those lies will destroy the fundation upon which he built himself. And if the man he thinks so highly of is capable of killing his mother, what does it say about him who’s an unrepentent killer, who’s deemed unworthy of being a Radiant? Do not screw this up Brandon!
And yeah, I agree the cover up was more for Dalinar’s shake than Evi.
I think its interesting that Sadeas, took Dalinars original order, of shooting anyone trying to leave, from before the battle began, and added, set fire to the bottom of the Rift. if he hadn’t had done that, even with the solders their to kill the people trying to flee, there would have been some survivors. Also, I don’t think Dalinar is not culpable for what he did, yes the Thrill and Sadeas played a large part in helping him decide and carry out a plan to immolate a whole city, but if you say he is not responsible, that steals from his moment with Odium, where he accepts the blame and responsibility for doing what he did, he claims it. and he tries to better because of it. Hoid even says to him, were things different, he would have denounced him as a tyrant, but do to circumstances, that is what the world needs.
Our world history did not end with Hiroshima and Nagasaki. During the Vietnam War carpet bombing with Napalm to take out Guerrilla fighting natives. During the Iraq War, White Phosphorus was used on Fallujah. For those that do not know, Napalm is a sticky gel like chemical ignites into flame that is very difficult to put out or get off. It was laid out like rivers of fire. There is a picture of a little girl running naked because her back was severely burned by a napalm bombing on the road. White Phosphorus is a chemical that burns the skin, and burns your insides when inhaled. Fallujah was covered in it. There are pictures of corpses practically mummified huddled in homes in the aftermath. So military strategies like Rathalas are not purely historical in nature. It still goes on.
We will eventually get to the chapter but Cultivation said she was not changing Dalinar. He is still the same person. The pruning could just as easily make a weapon for Odium. It is Dalinar that had to choose. If the man we came to know never existed within Past Dalinar even back then, then he could have never become the man we know today. Cultivation didn’t change him. The loss of the people of Rathalas sickened him. The loss of his wife destroyed him. But he chose to be better. To make amends. He could have continued to take the path of least resistance. He could have (like Amaram) just followed Odium and gave up his pain. But he didn’t. He took responsibility, and wants to do better.
I believe that no matter the action, if someone truly regrets their actions and makes a conscious effort no matter how delayed to make up for their actions, they should be given a chance. Dalinar clearly regrets the Rift. DId it take him some time? Yes. However he made a honest effort to be a better person. He doesnt seek redemption but forgivness. To say that he should die for something he honestly seeks to find something for it. Szeth is the same way. Isnt one of the chief rules of christianty forgivness? Real life dictaros usually take the easy way or are killed before they can make any kind of change. Dalinar is different he has had that chance and is clearly a better man for it. I also disagree that kadash teleb and even amaran should get off easy. The three were “ following orders” they still have responsibilty for their actions. Even kadash.
@5: Kadash gave away his freedom and chose to live a life of servitude. He isn’t getting away with his actions, he being punished for them, albeit on his own volition.
Excellent article.
Regarding acts of war – it’s all so complicated, isn’t it. I think this qualifies as a war crime and wouldn’t have had any direct influence on unifying the Alethi. It was solely to send a message. That’s all the justification that we really need. Even if Galivar doesn’t agree with the decision, it is likely that it’s something he would have wanted anyway. The decision to unify the Alethi was always going to cost lives. I think that’s just a constant throughout normal history. The Roman Empire, the unification of China, Vietnam, etc. The idea that these have lead to personal consequences for the participants other than their own moral dilemmas is a bit faulty. Those in power never suffer any “actual” consequences unless they lose. And Dalinar won. The only thing that we – the reader – would ever be able hold Dalinar accountable for is his own conscience. And we see. We see the struggle, the regret, the trauma and what it costs. We see what it took for him to even take the first step. And we know that he’ll try to take the next. It’s heartening to see that he’s at least trying. If I was related to one of those he had killed, I obviously wouldn’t be so forgiving, but that’s the romanticism of it all. We all want to see true atonement and regret, and we’re getting that with Dalinar.
And yes, Kadash gets credit. Every small step is still a step.
@Scáth – agree.
@2, Gepeto – I wouldn’t say “love.” Pity / sympathy is probably the better feel for it.
I wonder if Brandon went too far with Dalinar. Keeping these flashbacks to the third book does really help you overlook these atrocities, because we know present day Dalinar so well. But Dalinar was literally responsible for the killing of thousands of innocent people. Szeth and his tortured existence has nothing on Dalinar. It certainly changed my outlook on the character and not for the better.
@8 Sezth is responsible for the civil war in Ja Kaved, that killed way more people than the burning of the Rift.
@6 Disagreed on that. if he was being punished it would have been by the army or government or even the ardentia itself. He CHOSE to become a ardent. how is that so different to Dalinar choosing to go to the Nightmother to seek forgiveness (same thing as going to a priest or a ardent in this universe case) its a similar journey. Humans making choices because of their actions.
@9 – Szeth was merely the tool. Taravangian is the one responsible for the civil war.
A couple of quick observations:
Evi liked to meditate alone, didn’t she? It would have been easy for her to get rid of her servants under that pretext. Not sure how she would have been able to slip by her guards, though. I mean, she must have had bodyguards, right? She was kind of important.
Shardgate! So, Dalinar was lured away by false report of a Shardbearer with the caravan and an insinuation that it was one of Sadeas’s Sharbearers. So, why did Sadeas prove to be the only Shardbearer in his army when he arrived? How come that he was the only one in his army on the Shattered Plains still, until Amaram arrived? We are here helpfully reminded of the power of the shards, but the majority of the IIRC 20 or more of complete shard-sets that are in Alethkar never appear on-screen. Even in the battle against Kalanor for the future of the country there were just 7 sets on the field. IMHO, Sanderson needs some continuity tracking for them
@11 Dalinar was merely the tool. Odium/The Thrill is the one responsible for the Rift.
@13 – One could argue that, but it would completely contradict Dalinar’s rejection of Odium at the end of OB. The Thrill/Odium didn’t make him do anything. He still bore the ultimate responsibility of his decisions.
@multiple above:
I definitely don’t excuse Dalinar’s behavior. He commits an atrocity, a horrible horrible act of violence that he can never really make up for or undo. I also recognize some moral complexity, in that the Thrill is involved, all of the soldiers under Dalinar choose to obey his orders, Sadeas helps him, and Tanalan throws away a chance for a peaceful solution for the sake of revenge. Those other issues don’t undo Dalinar’s guilt.
However, as has been pointed out, Dalinar is reacting in the moment, fueled by anger, betrayal, and physical pain, and under the influence of the Thrill. I don’t think he would have been as extreme without the evil magical influence to urge him on.
Also, we see Dalinar changes his mind and decides to stop the carnage, even if it is too late. Then we see him start to regret what is happening, and he becomes haunted by the thought of the innocents killed, including Evi but also the children he knows where in the city.
As the book goes on, we see that Dalinar doesn’t stop feeling guilt and regret for his actions; it drives him to drink, gives him no peace, and eventually pushes him to seek the Nightwatcher. He is not Sadeas, able to move on without caring. Dalinar feels genuine shame and recognizes his own moral culpability.
When we first meet him, he is trying to be a better man; without remembering the true events of the Rift, he recognizes that he needs to change from the man he was in the past. In Oathbringer, once Dalinar remembers, he again feels tremendous guilt; he is also able to recognize his hypocrisy (“Sometimes a hypocrite is nothing more than a man in the process of changing”).
I don’t excuse Dalinar’s past behavior, and I recognize that he has escaped legal/official punishments for the crime. However, he has suffered emotional, mental, and spiritual consequences, and is currently in the process of becoming a better person, and in the process of working to save the world. Dalinar is not simply getting away with murder; we have seen him take active and deliberate steps to make the right moral choices, and to encourage and require the same from others. I think it is important (and what sets him apart from Amaram, and Moash so far) that Dalinar is making deliberate choices to be moral and to try and do better.
Also, we are seeing the process; Dalinar’s story is not yet done. We know he is going to publish his confessions, which is in itself a small step towards public amends. I am sure we will see more of his redemption process in the next two books.
Finally, because Sanderson wrote the story in the way that he did, we have a different reaction and a different way of viewing Dalinar than if his story had been told chronologically.
@7: I meant in-world characters. I may be thick-headed, but it just doesn’t get into my head how Adolin, Renarin, Jasnah, Elhokar and Navani can love Dalinar as much as they do given what he has done, given the man he once was.
@8: I agree. Seeing my own struggles with the character, I can only agree and think you are raising a very valid question. Was it too much? Sometimes, I think not having read Dalinar change during the main narrative perhaps harms the perspective Brandon was trying to sell here just as I do think having his family love him so much despite his wrongs generates conflicted reactions within some readers, namely myself. A more nuance reaction to Dalinar, in-world, would have probably help shedding away the ever-lasting impression I keep getting that Dalinar is being absolved of the worst atrocities.
@9: I don’t think Szeth is any better. His only line of defense is being a religious zealot who actually believed it was true his soul was trapped in that stone. Still, I would point out Szeth did *die* for his crimes, so well, there was *that*. He has yet to redeem himself, but so far fact remains he was exiled from his homeland than manipulated into killing people. Should he have been stronger? Of course, but Szeth, at least, isn’t being given the undying worshiping and love Dalinar receives, in-world. I mean, no one actually *likes* him nor want him near them. That’s a start.
@10: Ideally, yes, but we already established Alethkar wasn’t going to punish war crimes. Hence, punishment has to gone through other means. Kadash’s choice put him out of leadership, took away his freedom and made him be a servant. What did Dalinar give away he did not want to give away when he sought the Nightwatcher? What sacrifices do Dalinar makes to become the man he now is?
What price does Dalinar pay, either forced or by his own choice, for his actions?
Kadash chose to pay the price of freedom. I accept his choice. Dalinar gave away nothing, lost nothing he didn’t care losing, not even the love/respect of his family members.
@11: I agree Szeth didn’t choose to launch a civil war in Jah Keved.
@13: Dalinar had more of a choice than Szeth.
Szeth knew exactly what would happen when he killed the various rulers in jah Keved, im not saying that he wanted to do this, but if we judging the people involved with the Rift, you cant say he’s not culpable. and i agree with @ladyrian. one other thing. I was reading through a bunch of WOBs, because they kind of suck you in, and in one of them, Sanderson states, that he wants people to interpret the story how they want too. That is the point of the story, to entertain us? So he is fine with how others view his works in different lights. I just wanted to say that, so even though i may disagree with you, your view is just as valid as mine, only Brandon Sanderson’s view is immutable.
@Gepeto: but Dalinar is not as universally loved as that. Yes, his family loves him, and have seen more of that than any negative reaction, but we have seen examples of in-universe dislike and fear of him. Think of all the trouble that Dalinar had in Oathbringer, and how the other nations rejected his advances out of fear and dislike of the Alethi as a whole and more specifically of Dalinar himself.
And think of how the Ardentia and the Vorin church have reacted to Dalinar. Amaram called out Dalinar as well.
In WOK and WOR, many of those around Dalinar think he is insane or blasphemous or just stupid; even Adolin begins to doubt him and whether he is fit to lead.
There are examples of in-world pushback against Dalinar.
Also, even though I often disagree with you, you provoke great discussion and push people to think about things.
Also also: great article and analysis, as usual, ladies! You bring up very good points, and I like the discussion of military strategy.
Ancient and medieval sieges has similar “rules”. A city in rebellion is always in a precarious position. Add other trickery to that equation and “no quarter” could be expected. In 335 BC the city of Thebes broke the peace treaty and led a rebellion against Macedonia. When Alexander the Great was done with them, the 30,000 Thebans not killed in the fighting were sold off as slaves and the city was burned to the ground. A Greek city never challenged him again.
As time has gone on I have come to have a bit of a perspective of the Honor-Cultivation dynamic. I may be wrong but I think it’s that Honor pushes down against our worst impulses, (something Dalinar DEFINITELY needs as he has so many BAD impluses) whereas Cultivation is about lifting up our Better impulses. I thought this might be an important time to share this theory of mine.Given the nature of Dalinar and speculation on why he was chosen.
@7 Keyblazing
I agree. Being able to see how Dalinar suffered internally every single day since the Rift shows his genuine remorse for his actions. Without that remorse, without seeking to do better, what is the point? It just becomes torture porn. Hurting to hurt
@14 Austin
And one could argue right back that Szeth took responsibility for his actions just like Dalinar did. Szeth was the one that took those lives, and any consequences that flowed from that are on him. He is moving forward trying to do better
@15 ladyrian
I think you hit a good point. Just because we feel his redemption is warranted, does not mean we excuse what happened at the Rift. Personally I would rather an individual mentally and emotionally agonize over an action and change than someone just be physically and externally penalized. We would have no way of knowing it genuinely did any good. With Dalinar we are spoiled. We know his feels are genuine and real. Punishing him further externally accomplishes nothing. The goal has already been accomplished. The criminal has reformed and strives to continue to reform. If we were to apply this to the real world, then Dalinar’s prison sentence would have been commuted and reduced. He would have been released on good behavior.
@16: They love him because he’s family. They love him in spite of the atrocities. Love should be unconditional. Yes, it may change the way they think of him, but they’re not going to stop loving him just because they find out what kind of man he truly was. I emphasize the “was” because they also recognize that he is changing.
And why does the punishment have to be external? Does it not count as suffering unless everyone knows you’re suffering? What kind of schadenfreude logic is that?
@16 well for one, the reason the other characters accept his actions is because they don’t see them as crimes or the wanton act of a tyrant. Adolin and Renarain had their mother’s tales about how their father was a great general, a child like innocence. Remember, Adolin was wondering why his father wasn’t acting like the blackthorn of legend in the first book. Heck, Even Kaladin in his past saw Dalinar as one of the great soliders of their time. To the alethi youth who weren’t affected by war, they are the legendary heros you want to emulate; the same can be said with Elokhar. His uncle was his father’s right hand man, the fist of the power of their crown, a war hero. Navani KNOWS Dalinar is intense she said so herself, but it is clear she supported both his and her husband’s campagain. it is implied she and Ialai were best friends and were involved heavily with the politics, look at the two of them trying to hook dalinar and evi up in the first place, for example she’s not innocent either. Jasnah…well, she’s pragmatic to a fault, so it makes sense for her to excuse any kind of action, as long as it’s logical. and again, besides this core group aka his family and HIS army and a group of bridgemen who are loyal because he bought them out of a eternal hell that was parsh runs, everyone else in universe hates him for the most part. the high princes, the other leaders, that seems pretty nuance to me. your biggest complaint is how come none of the pov characters have these view points. well because they are side characters and aren’t part of the main cas this isn’t wheel of time, there does need to be a focus and not everything is about dalinar.
TO what Dalinar gave away? how about his memories? the fact he was a drunken wreck for six years, a shadow of a man he once was bcause of the terrible act he committed? that’s pretty severe to me than szeth just blaming his master for the deaths HE caused. sometimes things that happened spiritually and mentally are more important then the physical means.
I suspect I may be in the minority. I do not blame Dalinar for his actions at the Rift (including, ultimately the death of Evi). He believed that something spectacular had to be done to the Rift and Tanalan. Otherwise, others would resist. As uncivilized as the destruction of the citizens were, it is (in this case) an unfortunate circumstance of the battle. The same way that dropping the atomic bomb saved the lives of US troops in WWII. The alternative would have been an assault on Japan by US soldiers. Likewise, I could have understood had the Fused and Regals executed all humans in Alethkar. They only kept them alive to use as slave labor. Part of this could have been to show the run-of-the-mill singers that they are still not the bottom of the social rung.
Tanalan did not have to lock up Evi. He could have rejected her offer for peace and sent her back to the Kholin camp. Tanalan sought to use Evi as a weapon against Dalinar. IMO, I do not believe it is reasonable to fault Dalinar about killing Evi. He had no reason to believe that she was a captive or that the Rift used that area where Tanalan’s father once tried to hide as a prison. It would have been one thing if Dalinar had specific knowledge that Evi was a prisoner and Dalinar still burnt the entire city with all citizens inside.
Nevertheless, I can understand why Dalinar would blame himself. The part of him (even at this stage in his life) tried to fight the Thrill and thought that burning everybody went too far. Dalinar thinks that if he did not go too far, then Evi might not have died. I think Evi was dead the moment she entered the Rift. Tanalan was all about getting revenge on Dalinar. Killing Dalinar’s wife would have been the best way for Tanalan to get such revenge. It would have been payback.
I think Dalinar should be held more accountable where he let himself be so consumed by the Thrill that he killed some of his own soldiers.
Alice, you asked “Why is it that ‘retribution for the assassination of the highprince’s wife’ is a more acceptable rationale than ‘retribution for betrayal and attempted murder of the highprince?” IMO, it has to do with the chivalrous (or perhaps sexist, is the proper adjective depending upon how one’s perspective) nature of Alethi society. Women have a defined role in Alethi society. They are innocent civilians, especially Brightladies. Or at least that is the mythos. The reality is some women (including Ialai) are very influential advisers to their husbands/brothers/sons.
Thanks for reading my musings.
AndrewHB
aka the musespren
The discussion about whether Dalinar deserves redemption brings up an interesting philosophical point: does anyone deserve redemption? Or is the chance of redemption, by definition, an unearned grace?
I find myself thinking of things like the Rape of Nanking and the Roman siege of Jerusalem. By the way, the story goes that the Roman commander called on the gods to bear witness he was not responsible for the horrors happening in the siege. Part of me understands how an ancient Roman could think that and part of me asks, “Oh, so you were just an innocent bystander? You just happened to be in the same area while these things were happening?”
I’m also thinking about Tolkien and Lord of the Rings. A scene I’m really glad they cut from the theatrical release had Aragorn killing a messenger from Mordor. The scene in the book has Aragorn stopping anyone from killing the messenger.
Tolkien had lived through World War I. While he never romanticized war from earlier eras, he recognized the effects not just of war but of a war where moral lines that had, at least in theory, existed were erased and relegated to silly-things-people-used-to-believe-but-now-we-know-better. There’s a difference between a society that believes some things are right, even if it fails to live up to those beliefs, and being a society that rationalizes those things away.
Tolkien didn’t say that holding those lines meant you would win or that the fates would be on your side. Aragorn spares the messenger’s life believing that Frodo and the Ring have been taken. The war is effectively lost. There is nothing to be gained from doing the right thing.
But, Aragorn also realizes where the true line is between being like Sauron or one of his minions and being a person he can look in the mirror in the morning. He’s one of those people who would say that, if their cause is lost, let them lie in hallowed ground.
As a fictional character, I can accept that Dalinar changed. As a character in this world, I accept that he’s necessary to save the world. I also get that there’s a grim irony in the fact that the Alethi, when all’s said and done, accept what he did to the point that they won’t punish him for it.
How does all that add up to what’s right in this world? I believe in Dalinar’s ability to change and repent. But, I also want Dalinar to be judged in some way for what he’s done. On the other hand, doing that could result in everyone in their world (and possibly the whole Cosmere) dying. Of course, destroying a whole city was also framed as a pragmatic argument, short term loss and death, long term benefit with ultimately fewer deaths. To what extent am I being influenced by the fact that I like Dalinar in the present?
Here’s hoping Brandon finds a way to answer these questions, because I only seem to be up to looking at them all uneasily and not having answers yet.
Great comment as always!
There is something jarring with the purpose of the whole affair though.
Originally I had the same thoughts or quoted in Hoid’s words:
Indeed all the great empires justified their atrocities with the inner peace they created. But if we remember the very first chapter:
Indeed if Rift could be justified by the greater good, then why did Tien die? Inner peace was was not even attempted by the Alethi unification.
With Kadash I have a problem. I do not doubt his horror and his repentance, but the organization he chooses to atone for it is for all practical, theological and moral purposes worthless. IMO the Vorin church is the very embodiment of the values that led to the burning of the Rift.
@14 I was really just replacing Dalinar and Szeth in @11s statement as a comparison. I don’t really agree with my statement
@16 By what rationale did Szeth have less of a choice? As far as I know, the Oathstone doesn’t have any actual magical control over Szeth.
To play devils advocate. The burning of the Rift did end a war that was going on for about 20 years by that point and, while seen as barbaric, probably saved lives in the long run. Its similar to the last two seasons of Game of Thrones where // Dany was dissuaded from just going straight at Cersei and burning down the red keep with all three dragons at the beginning of season 7. While it would have been barbaric, how much better off would she be right now? //
Dalinar is writing the “TRUE” history of what happened and his part in it. His own sons do not know this truth yet. There may well be more consequences for Dalinar.
Dalinar is also “writing” the history himself. This is a MAJOR issue for the Alethi culture and the Vorin church. Yes, he is already an apostate but the yelling will likely increase.
I can barely make myself read about what he did in Rathalas. Once the Thrill died out he did recant a little and wanted to let the remaining people escape but Sadeus took pleasure in making double, triple sure that no one would escape.
It’s never stated but is Sadeus being affected by the thrill also? You would think he’d have wanted to lead the charge in his Shard plate.
@29 From what I remember in the WoR, he did seem to be Thrill-seeking. that he hasn’t really felt in in a while, and he’s desperate for it.
Okay, this might be my least favorite of the chapters in the book. What Dalinar (and Sadeas) did here is a terrible thing, regardless of the reasons. War is just brutal and innocent people die, both in real life and in fiction. As for the individual reasonings…
Sadeas is a miserable excuse for a human being. His continual pushing towards the most brutal methods and sacrificing both his soldiers to take the walls and civilians in the town and blocking exits (before Dalinar can change his mind)… Even for a militaristic society it’s terrible. If all Alethi were this bad the country would have been depopulated generations earlier.
Teleb and Kabsal both have responsibility for what they helped do at the Rift. Teleb dealt with his guilt by passing his responsibility up the chain of command and trusting-like soldiers have to-that the CO knew what he was doing. Kabsal dealt with his by taking his blame and self punishing-or is it deciding to just make a change?-by giving up his life for the ardentia where he’d never have to face that again. Also not the easiest decision.
Dalinar… so responsible. This is really all his fault. There are a few redeeming things he does, like pushing the Thrill away a little (before it abandons him) and deciding to let the people escape (even though it’s too late and they can’t. Other than that, he’s totally an animal, like he says. There’s nothing in him of the Dalinar we see in the rest of the story. The magical ‘pruning’ allowed him to grow-into an almost completely different person. It doesn’t excuse or atone for what he did in any way; he still has to confront that later in the book.
And Evi… that poor woman. I feel like I’ve said that every time. She shouldn’t have gone, she should have been missed, they shouldn’t have held her prisoner… but this is war. And I don’t think she was stupid. She knew what was going to happen, though I’m guessing she thought of it as a worst-case scenario not an eventuality.
The whole thing just makes me sick to think about. One of my kids fell in a campfire a few years ago; she’s fine now but it was awful. Every time I read this the smell of it just comes back, and it’s so terrible. I hate reading this chapter.
Even on my like fifth graphic audio relisten over the years (can’t reccomend it enough, the music and Dalinars voice actor are amazing)
I still think tanalan shares a LOT of the blame here. Sure, people have said if this was from his perspective he’d be the hero resisting the tyrant but he absolutely let his ego and arrogance get in the way of the wellbeing of his people. They’d tried diplomacy for years, and Dalinar offered him an extremely favorable option to bow out and save face.
He completely brought this death onto his city.
Obviously Sadeas and Dalinar are absolutely to blame for the brutality, taking it from 10 to 1000 like that, I totally agree. And people who blame the influence of odium and the thrill instead of Dalinar totally missed the point of Dalinars arc in this book and the finale in Thaylen city haha. He accepts the responsibility.
But it was a perfect storm that led to everything playing out this way, Sadeas twisting the order about scouts to mean kill anyone escaping, if Sadeas wasn’t there it wouldn’t have been such a bloodbath definitely.
The whole arc of Dalinar is changing his path to not be a despotic prick like his brother. I hope in 5 on his vision quest he finds out how much of a shit heel his brother was and how exploitative he was to Dalinar.
But tanalan is a douche nonetheless.
Hm – I actually forgot that Dalinar had already started to regret his action even as it was happening.
Anyway, I don’t have much to add at this juncture. I’ve never believed that the ends justify the means when it comes to killing innocent lives for a cause. But I do also believe that the most important type of consequence is in fact, interior sorrow and redemption so I can also believe in Dalinar’s path here. But I don’t think it’s over yet.
As for Kadash, without seeing his monologue it’s hard to know what he was thinking as he went along with the atrocity. I think in a way, realizing Evi was there sparking it is somewhat similar to how (for example) the only reason Vader really redeemed himself was because of his son. Sometimes it’s that personal connection that is needed to start to push somebody on the right path, since not all people are naturally altruistic.
It’s true we haven’t really talked about Evi. She easily could have been a typical disposable woman who dies to motivate others, but instead Sanderson wrote her as a fascinating character who has her own development even in the little of her that we see.
Her choice to go and plead with Tanalan is incredibly brave, and proves her true character. She risks her life to save people that she does not know, in a nation that she is not part of, even knowing that most Alethi look down on her. Evi’s choice is not selfish or motivated by self-interest; she simply hates killing and wants to save lives.
If she had persuaded Tanalan to surrender, and things had ended differently, I wonder what would have happened.
Evi’s actions here just make me want to know more about what her life was like before she got to Alethkar. I know we discussed this a lot in the betrothal dinner chapter so I’ll leave it there.
Whether Dalinar has atoned for his crimes or if he needs more for the redemption to pay off is a question with no answer. Or rather a question with so many answers in that everyone has one that it’s likely impossible to form a consensus on the matter. We know the facts, that Dalinar used to be a terrible person and is now not terrible. He always had honorable instincts yet was so deeply a slave to the Thrill that the honor impulses manifested rarely. We know that the Rift was a bad day for many people, Dalinar included.
Since the first question is kinda unanswerable, I’ve thought of a few more to ponder. Regarding Kadash, anybody other than me think that Kadash may have been holding a torch for Evi, a bit of unrequited and unsanctioned love for his commander’s wife? Not that anything went on, just that he wanted her? I mean Kadash was Dalinar’s bloodrider from the very beginning, he’s seen Dalinar’s war face, he rolls the barrels down without any hint of hesitation. Only when he finds out Evi burned did he start to look at the carnage he caused in his military career.
Regarding Dalinar’s trip to the NW. Are people actually looking down on him for seeking help to a problem he could not overcome on his own? For years he self-medicates, alienated himself from family and his few friends, is seen as a washed up joke by the entire Alethi court. Adolinl loved and hero worshipped his father and even he had no illusions about his drinking problem, irritation about having to defend his pop’s reputation to his cousin the King. After his brother died as he lay passed out in a drunken stupor he hit rock bottom and had the moment of clarity. He pretty much followed the AA textbook from there. Just because the source of his help was magical in nature should not detract from the fact that he sought help in the first place. And really, how much harder would it have been for him to seek the help he knew he needed when everyone under the sun is telling him his martial career was a thing to be proud of?
Just what did the NW exise anyway? All Evi-related memories of course but what else? He clearly never lost his self-loathing of the man he used to be, even if he couldn’t remember specifically the awful things he did. Did he remember anything that the flashbacks covered?
I believe the cover-up was less about Dalinar’s rep and more about protecting Evi’s memory. Since when has Dalinar ever gave a fig about what people think of him. Even back when everyone thought his visions were a manifestation of insanity he never thought of how people would view him. But he loved Evi as much as someone of the Blackthorn’s curious mental state would allow. He already felt bad enough about her death without having people besmirch her memory. Others would probably try to play political games with this information but not Dalinar. Something to consider regarding this. Dalinar knew his wife, knew what she was trying to accomplish in Rathalas. He knew the Alethi would not understand that she was on a mission of mercy. He knew he could never explain it in a way that would make sense to his war-mongering people.
@25
Very elegant comment.i suspect the answer lies in what you grew up to believe.
You know
@18: All true. You are right to point out there are in-world characters who aren’t worshiping Dalinar. They, however, aren’t viewpoint characters which imply all the third person’s perspective we get of Dalinar, at least in Oathbringer, are from people who love him unconditionally. There isn’t anyone to offer this other perspective, to challenge Dalinar, to have doubts over him or to not be entirely happy he has been chosen to be the Bondsmith. Sure, there was Fen, and I loved Fen, but she isn’t a viewpoint.
The same is true for Kadash who does oppose, in some ways, Dalinar, but again, he isn’t a viewpoint character. The Iriali also aren’t liking him all that much, preferring to side with the Fused than with him, but again, we aren’t reading their perspective.
In WoK, Dalinar had this arc where he was willing to jeopardize his entire princedom on visions he was so utterly convinced were real, he had to blindly listen to his own interpretation of them. I LOVE the fact Brandon had Adolin tossed in here to offer the perspective of someone who isn’t convinced, who doesn’t think this is a good idea, who thinks Dalinar had just gone mad. This perspective was, IMHO, needed just as I now think the alternate view on Dalinar is something which is currently missing within the narrative. Mind, we may get it within RoW. I have theorized one of the reasons Dalinar isn’t getting a lot of viewpoints is because Brandon plans to have us mostly follow him from the third person’s perspective. So, we’ll see but right now, I found I am missing an in-world character to put within words the ill-at-ease feeling I have towards Dalinar.
And, thanks! I do mind others not agreeing with me. I do know this isn’t a topic where all will agree (it is just impossible given our different backgrounds), but it pleases to hear my comments are appreciate, if only because they provoke discussion. And well, I do read the opposing arguments… my mind, however, isn’t quick to change position, but it does change. My track record is filled with characters I have loved, then hated and vice-versa, so who knows, maybe after RoW I’ll be Dalinar’s greatest defender.
@16: Families can be more complicated… and when your parent hasn’t been there for you, it isn’t rare love becomes toxic. And honestly hating the parent responsible for the death of the other person would be a terribly realistic reaction more than blind forgiveness and unconditional love, still IMHO.
The punishment has to be external so it counts as a punishment. Dalinar feeling sorry for himself is not a punishment: you do not erase the crimes of a murderer just because he drinks a lot and says he is sorry. Guilt is not the punishment, guilt is the sign there may be redemption, but it isn’t retribution. Since we already established Alethkar wasn’t going to punish Dalinar because it lacks the legal system to do so, then I am willing to take in other forms of punishment. At the very least if Dalinar’s behavior had caused the alienation of his family members, a very realistic reaction, then it’d look as if Dalinar had actually faced something akin to a consequence.
It doesn’t have to *this* specifically, but it ties into my desire to have an alternate perspective within the narrative.
@23: Adolin and Renarin do not know the full truth, this is true, but they do know Dalinar rejected Renarin for more than 13 years. They also do know Dalinar has been harsh and detrimental towards Adolin. He hasn’t been there for them, he hasn’t even been nice to them! The only, only, only time he acted as a father was during those 6 years in Jah Keved and that was only with Adolin. But Renarin? And Jasnah who saw it all happen?
As you point out, there is a good rationale as to why Adolin hero worships Dalinar (just as there is a good rationale for him to react very negatively to the truth), but there isn’t a very strong one to explain Renarin, Jasnah, and Elhokar. Or Navani. How can she love this man? She knows what he was, what he did, how he treated his son and yet she loves him??? That’s beyond me. So yeah, perhaps you are right, it speaks at length to what kind of woman Navani really is…
Jasnah held crying Renarin who sobbed over a father who didn’t love him. If she isn’t the block of ice the narrative sometimes try to sell, then this should have been enough to put some doubt into her when it comes to her uncle. She saw the harm Dalinar did to his younger son. She knows and it wasn’t enough to change her perspective. She can’t be pragmatic enough to think the man who purposefully hurts a small boy’s feelings has the “greatest heart” she has ever seen.
On the matter of viewpoints, I tend to prefer when the viewpoint characters are chosen to offer a wide variety of perspectives. I like reading the other side of the story or the alternate interpretation, but YMMV. I hate young Dalinar (I do not hate him *now*, but as a younger man, yes), I hate the Blackthorn, but the narrative has no character to corroborate those thoughts. Hence, I ended up feeling, as a reader, I have to *love* him, to *pity* him, but I don’t.
I do not consider Dalinar losing his memories as a consequence because he chose to lose them. And this loss is what allowed him to become a better man, so that’s not really a “consequence” more like a “very good thing”. Granted, could have not worked out, granted, he still chose to change and I respect the fact he did it, but he still got off easy from having condoned what had to be the worst actions we have seen so far within the series. Nothing no other character does even come close to the horrors Dalinar unleashed that day.
@24: Interesting insight on Tanalan. I never thought of what it meant for him to keep her as a captive. You make me think… If Tanalan knew about Dalinar wanting to torch his city, how come there weren’t guards at the strategic points? How come he didn’t order an evacuation? Could he have done so? Why were his wife and children still there? Why weren’t they leagues away with an honor guard seeking safety?
@25: Argh. Good question.
@27: I guess Kadash turned where he found solace and like many people, it was religion. It is why Dalinar claiming the Almighty is dead distresses him so much if there never were an Almighty, then the warring they did was completely unwarranted. Alethi believes if they win a battle, then it is because the Almighty wanted them to fight, kill and win. Dalinar destroys this, thus destroying the peace of mind Kadash has achieved.
@29: That’s what I hope to read in RoW. It would bring the Dalinar narrative to yet another level, I really hope Brandon explores it.
@31: Ah I am sorry for your kids. I completely understand how you would feel this way given this experience. A few weeks ago, I watched an Outlander episode where the captain takes an 8 years old girl from her mother’s arms and throws her overboard because he feared she had a contagious disease. I had trouble falling asleep that night because I kept seeing my own little girl being thrown into the sea. And that was just *television* and *fiction*.
@33: Do we think Dalinar would have accepted a surrender? Was he able to at that point in time?
@34: Me too. I wrote a lot on why I was so curious about Evi’s past.
@35: Huh…. First time I hear this theory… Kadash also was Adolin’s tutor and seems fond of him… Could be because he reminds him of Evi, the narrative says Adolin looks a lot like Evi. Interesting theory, not one we can prove, but interesting.
The problem I have with the Nightwatcher isn’t the fact Dalinar sought help, it is more the fact help is given to him in such a manner: by taking away the problem. It is more rewarding to work towards overcoming the problem, like in the AA.
If the cover-up is about protecting Evi’s reputation (and I agree part of it was), then why did they lie about who started the fire? Why nowhere was it said it was Dalinar who did it? Why make it appear as if Dalinar had no role at all within this catastrophe? That’s the part which bothered me with the cover-up.
So he began to have doubts and regrets about burning the Rift before learning about Evi, but her death was the point at which he became devastated. I still wonder how it would have played out if she hadn’t been involved,. Guess I’ll have to reread the subsequent flashback chapters too. Grumble.
It hadn’t occurred to me that Kadash would see joining the ardentia as self-imposed punishment for the harm he had done, rather than simply a way of life that didn’t require directly causing death and destruction. I would much rather be an ardent than a soldier — but I’m not an Alethi man.
Unlike most readers, it appears, I didn’t much like Dalinar in WoK, where we saw a lot of him being a Thrill-fueled slaughter machine on the Shattered Plains. I think I began to like his present-day self before the end of WoK, but don’t think I saw him as any force of great goodness until he started his unifying attempts in Oathbringer. His brutal past was deeply disturbing, but not altogether surprising. (I disliked Szeth’s early chapters even more, though I faulted him a little less because he didn’t enjoy his slaughter-work; I didn’t imagine that the Thrill might have an external source).
Premature song-earworm of the day: “Forgiveness”
Well just like there’s no legal system on Roshar that would be capable of punishing Dalinar, there’s no social support system to help him when he knows he needs help. The society he lives in isn’t big on self-reflection or meditation or therapy. After 6 years of boozing and drugging himself near to death he’s convinced that if he’s to become a better human being and seek some redemption for his past he needs help. He took Cultivation’s deal because at that point he had only one other option. If he’d refused her price I have a feeling that he would have gone chasm-diving head first rather soon. Because who could he even talk to in-world? The ardents? They totally approve of his actions. Well Kadash doesn’t but it’s funny that they don’t speak out on this until he started publishing visions. His bestie Sadeas? Don’t make me laugh please. Gavilar may have been able to do something but he dies before he can plant little bro on the right track. And the more we learn about Gav the less I’m sure of him being a good influence. He’s avoiding Navani for the same reasons he avoided the crown and the boys aren’t quite old enough to commiserate with.
If Culti just happened to come visit Kholinar and hit Dalinar with the magic fairy dust to make him forget about all his guilt and self-loathing that’s one thing. But that’s not what happens. Dalinar doesn’t just wallow along, say woe is me and continue in his same destructive behavior. Instead, he identifies within himself that what he’s doing ain’t working (Gavilar’s death as catalyst), that he needs help and then he goes out and gets that help from the only source he knows. He does this despite his society effectively gas lighting him and the representatives of the Almighty calling NW blasphemy. In my mind he earned the right to take the next step. He was not responsible for the form the help he asked for took. Maybe Culti could have used a different method and it would look less like Dalinar got a Get Outta Jail Free card but she chose the form she chose.
Remember the scene in WoT where Asmodean was telling Rand the story of the guy on a cliff? When you’re about to fall you grab at whatever you can. Dalinar didn’t just lose a brother but a guidepost. His life was already in shambles and was on the verge of complete collapse. He grabbed at what he could.
@38: Seeing how negatively Renarin felt towards joining the Ardentia, I’d argue it isn’t considered the pantheon of masculinity to be an Ardent. It would have been quite a change of life for a man such as Kadash, especially given he was no longer young. He would have needed to learn how to read, how to write, quite an endeavor for a former soldier. If he had just wanted to retire from the fighting, I guess he could have done it, without joining the Ardentia, but his choice always struck me as a mean to calm his guilty conscience.
I hated Szeth chapters during both WoK and WoR. I started warming up to him only in Edgedancer.
I didn’t hate Dalinar in WoK, I just found him terribly… stupid and simple-minded. Choosing how to act based on visions? Ah that was pure folly. Still, the scene where he gives away Oathbringer and the one where he kicks Elhokar were amazing. I liked him after this, but I tend to prefer reading Dalinar in smaller doses. On average, I do not find him the most exciting character to read about except for his flashbacks. Those I absolutely love even if I hate the man they followed. I mean, one can like reading narrative while hating the character: totally possible.
@39: Good commentary, but yeah, you summarized it well enough. The way it was chosen to have Cultivation help Dalinar does indeed read like a “Get away from Jail” card.
On the side note, I never read Dalinar being anywhere near the man Asmodean claimed to have seen hanging from the cliff (though in the context of WoT, Asmodean was referring to himself). I mean, Asmodean had zero choices whereas Dalinar always had many.
Dalinar had the choice to try all of the alternatives you have listed. It might not have worked, but he could have *tried* and it was the fact he never tried until he gets his magical fix from Cultivation which cheapens his whole redemption. How can it be satisfying when the reason Dalinar becomes healthy again is linked to a deity taking a gamble with him?
I’m a bit late to the comments this week but I can’t believe that no one else has mentioned how learning of this information will impact Adolin. Its my contention that finding out that his father, who Adolin reveres, behaved this way and directly led to the death of his mother and countless thousands of innocents will be what ‘breaks’ him, opening him to the possibility of a nahel bond and will play some part with him reawakening Maya. I would have assumed that this was a pretty common theory but I can’t see it anywhere else in the comments.
The theory is actually captured: HERE in a December 2017 speculation post by Paige and Alice.
@2: Galivar did try to negotiate with Tanalan. He tried for 13 years. Dalinar is only sent to the rift when politics fails and he is concerned that not dominating them in battle will weaken his rule. When galivar sends him to the rift, they both know dalinar is being sent there to perpetrate an atrocity. Dalinar even tells tanalan as much when they parley in chapter 71. Neither may be expecting the level of atrocity, but dalinar is pretty explicit that he -is- going to kill every male in the city.
am i the only one who gets really irritated at Tanalan in the chapter? He pleads with dalinar to have pity on his children (any parent would), but isnt that something he should have considered when he first rebelled or when they were born? Dalinar was ashamed of himself for not killing tanalan as a child, his mother had to hide him to keep other assasins from killing him before he grew up, galivar expected his brother to kill child tanalan. Surely the older tanalan wasnt the only brightlord who had an heir at the time galivar was conquering. Those children were likely killed too. Tanalan should have known that a failed rebellion was going to result in his childrens death. The fact that he refused to negotiate means he considered his revenge more important than his children’s safety.
As for galivars ‘censure’ of dalinar for the rift.. its laughable. Dalinar keeps his command and galivar basically says ‘bad daninar! No, no!’ Then turns to all the other highlords and says ‘gosh, it would be a SHAME if i had to send dalinar out to put down another rebellion, wouldnt it?’. If galivar truly wanted to send a message that what dalinar did wouldn’t be tolerated he would have stripped dalinar of command and exiled him to somewhere out of the way. He didnt. Ergo, the rift was an example and a threat to everyone else. Its a message that this level of response IS acceptable and expected. If you ask me, Galivar is either aware that the city burned intentionally or just doesnt want to look into it. the cover story is a useful ruse to justify why dalinar is still around rather than exiled.
I hold dalinar entirely responsible for the rift. He may have been under the influence of the thrill, but he still did it. Saying its not his fault is similar to saying a person who gets drunk and beats his children isnt responsible for his behavior either. I dont even think sadeas invented the plan. Sadeas wants to punish them, but dalinar requests the soulcasters start producing oil -before- sadeas explains his actual plan, so the fire is all Dalinar. The only thing sadeas does is burn the bridges to ensure noone escapes. (I bet the rat figured his bestie might relent and wanted to make sure everyone died)
What i find interesting about this chapter is how it is an antithesis for what the knights radiant stand for. Dalinar will go on to say ‘journey before destination’ or as teft Or sazed puts it… its better to lose while holding onto your morals than win by discarding them. In this chapter, dalinar discards his humanity to win. The man he is right now cannot be a radiant. It is my personal belief that this is the action that causes him to realize the wrongness of his thinking. This notion bothers me more than a little. An act of atrocity can never be a good thing, and saying that it made dalinar a better person implies it is. Dalinars improvement as a person does not supersede the lives of tens of thousands.
@42 I don’t think no one is saying it’s not his fault, that would go against the entire message of his arc, that it WAS his fault, and that he took responsibility. no, the main argument is whether his seeking redemption and forgiveness is enough for the crime, and whether he had earned his big moment at the very end of the book. I personally feel he does, because he clearly regrets his actions even while doing it, and spent six years in a drunken coma trying to forget, making him the shadow of a man that he once was, stuck in a endless loop of drink. When he does seek forgiveness, he is pruned and thus is able to function again and does attempt to be better than what he was even before the Rift. now is he there yet? that’s a difficult question, and what we are talking about.
@41: As always, there are LOTS of theory about Adolin. My personal thoughts are Adolin IS broken (the guy has no sense of self-worth, thinks everything he is what either given to him or is useless), even without the truth about the Rift, but he never acknowledged it. Hence, in a weird way, he seems as whole because he refuses to think of himself as broken or not totally “all right”. He strives to be the strong one, always, to do better, to try harder without ever acknowledging the toll it takes on him nor the fact try as hard as he might, he’ll never be this idolized version he has of Dalinar. And, more importantly, he’ll never be this idolized version of himself Dalinar has of him.
Adolin is doomed to always fall short of expectations because those both he, his father and society place on him are impossible to attain. So, by my reading, Adolin is broken, but is unlikely to see himself as such until there is an event which forces him to shed away his hero-worshiping of Dalinar.
Hence, I would expect Adolin to have a life-crisis over the truth about the Rift, I would expect him to be shattered to his core by those revelations and to react in a very unpredicatable impulsive manner. And then, yeah, maybe it’ll help him with Maya, but her revival is not a given.
@42: We do not know what Gavilar offered in terms of negotiations. It may have been a poor bargain for Tanalan. I am personally of the opinion Gavilar never really *tried* to bargain, he allowed the situation to rot away just so he could have the opportunity to send Dalinar in to deal with it. He has always been looking for foes to unite his kingdom against, always worried it would collapse around him, so my thoughts are, with the Rift, he wanted to re-assert his powers though not with the means that ended up being employed.
Granted these are my thoughts and can nowhere be proven.
On Tanalan: Despite my sympathy for his character, he was an idiot not to have sent his family away from Rathalas upon the first glimpse of trouble. Their death is on him.
On Gavilar: I agree had he wanted to make the statement what happened at the Rift was truly terrible, he would have sentenced his brother and sent him away in exile. He used the event to his advantage. He took most of the blame away from his brother to avoid needing to punish him while keeping him close as a threat towards those thinking about rebellion. So yeah, I think I agree with you about the cover story. Very convenient tale for Gavilar, also for Dalinar given he wasn’t exiled, punished nor sent away to send the message the new king would not tolerate such actions. Instead he used a very bizarre strategy which was to officially denied it happened on purpose, shoving the blame on Sadeas as opposed to Dalinar while still having Rathalas a a threat to be used. Shred.
I agree with you when you say Dalinar’s improvement as a person (and I would add his future contribution) wasn’t worth the life of thousand of people. It will never be worth the carnage he did. Dalinar’s pain shouldn’t supersedes the death of those people, it should be what matters the most and yet, in the narrative, it does.
I keep on coming back to what would it accomplish. Punishment’s goal is to stop the offending actions, prevent the offending action from occurring in the future, and reforming the individual. Dalinar’s personal torment accomplished all of the above. I believe the spiritual remnant of the Rifters and Evi are in fact them, and they forgave Dalinar. The aggrieved parties feel the sentence has been carried out and accomplished its goal. Jail time and any familial problems would in my opinion be pointless and accomplish nothing.
@43, @44 Except he isn’t being “rewarded” for being a better person for the deaths of all of those people. its not going ‘good job! heres retribution!” that’s not how it works at all. as I have said this entire past week, he clearly regrets it, a punishment won’t really do much except making you, the reader, feel good when he CLEARLY has been punished already. he lost his wife, no matter if he did love or her or not (he cared for her at the least) he lost his memories, hell he lost his easy going way of life and has to pick up the burden of being a reformed man who has to SAVE THE WORLD. he doesn’t want this, he clearly doesn’t want to, but he has gone through hell and back. what would his son having a delayed reaction to her death and a crime that to them, was justified, really accomplish besides a couple of reader’s satisfaction? it wouldn’t reallymake a strong narrative besides drama, I feel. fo@45 Agreed!
I feel really hesitant about joining the discussion on these chapters…. because in all honesty, I feel a great deal of kinship with Dalinar, both old and young. I understand him, and see a lot of myself in him. (Even the awful parts)
Dalinar’s growth as a person is not more important than the lives of those in the Rift. If he had been worthy of radiancy back then, he would have either found a way to win without killing the innocent or he would have accepted that losing with decency was better. Had Galivar been worthy of radiancy, he would have tried harder to make peace, even if it made him look weak. And if Tanalan wasn’t a completely worthless idiot he would have recognized that the lives of his people were more important than his desire for revenge. We can assume that Galivar wasn’t oppressing the people of the Rift at the time Tanalan revolted. His people would have been just fine if he just swallowed his pride and let Galivar rule.
The fact of the matter is, Alethi culture does not ABIDE losers. None of these men dared to do anything that might make others think they are weak.
All that said, I do heartily agree with Scath. Dalinar’s growth might not have been worth the lives of 10,000 people, but to refuse to allow him to grow after having done it is to consign all of us to the person we were when we were at our worst. To insist that he must be punished before he can be allowed to move forward is even more depressing to me. If we insist on always ensuring our enemies are punished, we are no better than the leaders of our country who can’t think of the larger picture before satisfying our own desire to punish those we don’t like.
Honestly, one of the biggest qualms I have is the belief that we are somehow better than Alethi culture. I don’t know what other people are used to, but as far as I can tell, we still idolize those who can dominate and destroy, we love bullies – so long as they attack those we dislike, and looking weak is an invitation for attack. The only difference is that we use words instead of swords.
@40: “I mean, one can like reading narrative while hating the character: totally possible.” Heh. I’m the opposite. Characters, as a story element, are far more important to me than plot, which I tend to lose track of anuway. If I enjoy reading characters (whether or not I would like them as real people), I often don’t care overmuch about the specifics of the story they move through. If I don’t find them likable, or interestingly unlikable in a love-to-hate way, but boring and/or repulsive, I’m unlikely to be engaged by their story or their personal arcs. (Setting is the most important element to me, along with lushness of prose, though I’ve found that they alone don’t always hold my interest if the plot and characters are sufficiently boring and/or repulsive).
@Gepeto: as said repeatedly upthread and in other comment threads, it’s possible to read this very differently. Dalinar accepted having his mind mutilated as punishment for his crimes, by a literal (within the narrative) god. (Of course now he’d presumably deny that Cultivation is a god.) I think many people would rather be castrated or have a limb amputated than have their very memories hacked apart and stolen. He didn’t know she was planning to return what she took–the Nightwatcher never reverses her curses, after all.
@AeronaGreenjoy, you might be interpreting the comment in #40 differently from its intent. If I take what you wrote in #48 literally it says you don’t like stories with villains ….
@46: Well yes, I do feel he is being rewarded for all the deaths he has caused. He is being pruned, he is getting the memories of what he did take away from him and he gets the amazing chance to rebuilt himself anew without having to be burdened by his past. He gets to start again in life, to erase his past mistakes.
So yes, by my own perspective, Dalinar is being rewarded for the harm he has caused.
How many people actually deserve a second chance and never get it?
On Dalinar saving the world: he isn’t going to single-handily save the world nor is he the only human being who is trying to save him. All characters are trying to *save* the world, not just Dalinar. It’s a team effort.
@48: Characters matter more to me than plot, but I love hating characters, so I can find great enjoyment in reading a good narrative surrounding a character I hate. What I struggle more with is reading uninteresting narratives featuring characters I do not care about. Hating is caring, not caring is just not wanting to read about a given character. In the case of SA, good examples of characters I don’t care about reading would be Puuli or Kaza. The purpose of those chapters was lost to me and I didn’t care about those characters, so I struggled with them.
Hence, I love reading the Blackthorn, I love reading him because I hate him. In another narrative, one told chronologically, I would be yearning for the moment where he dies. Like this one character in Faithfull and the Fallen, ah the moment where he is killed: so satisfying. I so loved hating him.
So I guess we are all different in our tastes!
@49: I agree Dalinar chose to have his mind altered and that’s why it bothers me. He made this choice. And he made it before trying other alternatives, he used the last resort without ever trying other options first.
On a narrative point of view, Cultivation choosing to prune Dalinar (which he didn’t ask for and didn’t know he would be getting) does cheapen his later growth as he got to evolve without the memories of what he did. As a reader, it bothers me Dalinar had such help to grow when, by my own perspective, he certainly didn’t deserve it.
@49: Hahaha, storms, no. Likability and moral goodness are unconnected where my opinions of fictional characters are concerned. I’m a total pushover for villains and usually gravitate toward them in any story, especially if they act out of relatable and/or enjoyable motivations like envy, loneliness, curiosity, gluttony, or in rare cases thalassophilia. In this series, the Unmade currently fit the bill for me, as I intend to rave shortly. It helps that they’re non-human and thus categorically more interesting. But humans who commit atrocities out of wrath, sadism, or a grim sense of duty/obligation tend to be unrelatable and boring for me, as well as unplewsant to watch (especially from within their minds). I guess that makes them loathsome, not hated — I don’t care to read about them, and Gepeto is right that hating is caring. I’ve experienced the difference with (non-Sanderson) characters who I hate but don’t loathe, characters who I think about obsessively and angrily but don’t avoid thinking about.
@50: I found Puuli and Kaza relatively interesting and would have liked to read more of their stories, though they might or might not have held my interest long-term as central characters in a series. Ditto for most of the other Interlude POVs. I’m so very happy that Lift has been given her own novella and brought into the main storyline, because Lift is The Best Ever.
This quote from the latest episode of Arrow relates to our discussion: //“Dying is the coward’s way out. Everyday that you stay alive you try to redeem yourself for that messed up thing you did. ‘Cause this world is a better place with a hero like you.”//. This quote is to someone who //in a magically-induced fit of uncontrollable violence accidentally killed two innocent security guards. //. The situation is quite similar to what we are talking about. What should the path forward be for someone who committed a terrible act but who repents and wants to do better? Is it better for that person to go to prison/die/etc. or is better for them to make an effort to improve themselves and society? The character in question thinks that he should //die or turn himself in// but someone responds with the above quote; //by living, he has more to offer and can do good (in the episode, he risks his life to save his teammates/the city)//. I think it does depend on the situation.
@Gepeto: Dalinar indeed does not “deserve” the help he gets, if you’re judging his past crimes. Rather than insert the obvious Tolkien quote, let me instead just say that Cultivation, and Evi’s spirit, are not judging him per se. They are showing mercy and generosity.
Consequentialism usually devolves into a dangerous mentality. Take the Allied Bomber Command research regarding the use of just the right mix of HE and Incendiary bombs to create the perfect conflagration towards maximum building damage used to devastating effect on European cities (Dresden) and alarming mass casualties on Japanese mainland cities (Tokyo) because of their cultural preferences for building materials. Or Allied Commands fears of Imperial Japan’s propaganda efforts that were witnessed first hand during the island campaigns and figured into the projected results on the local populace and the landing force. It’s hard to fight a Just War. It really is. It’s even harder to finish one.
The Alethi unification and expansion campaigns didn’t even start as a Just War. They certainly didn’t finish as one. Gavilar goes on to engage in efforts to bring about another apocalypse just to recapture the bygone days as you know who’s personal plaything. None of the characters escape that deterministic influence until they tie themselves to a power source that can compete with it.
I personally blame Odium. As much as comparisons to our own historical narratives can be helpful, it’s Greek literature that I feel is most helpful for the Cosmere; humanity a mere plaything of the gods, where some earn favor at times and all are used as a means to an end by flawed beings with diefic power and odd constraints, to include the demigod Hoid. These moments remind me more of the Iliad and Odyssey than anything else.
@53: Cultivation doesn’t care about Dalinar’s past deeds, she isn’t capable of having the same reasoning as real human beings. All she cares about is trying to make Dalinar grow into a tool to be used against Odium. Having Odium’s Champion seek her out was a stroke of luck and an opportunity she wasn’t going to pass by. It was either she did nothing and lets Odium’s Champion walk away or she attempts to give him a chance to grow into rejecting Odium. She took the second option, but nowhere does she absolve him of his crimes nor does she imply she cares about what he did.
She cares only about what Dalinar could grow into. She isn’t justice. She isn’t being fair. Dalinar is a tool, a mere tool, she gave him what he didn’t deserve because it was useful to do it. It doesn’t change the fact Dalinar benefices from her actions, it doesn’t change the fact her gamble is what gives Dalinar a second chance, it doesn’t change the fact Dalinar is given a lot more than other characters were ever given.
And he didn’t deserve it. Dalinar himself probably doesn’t think he deserved it, so my issues aren’t with how Dalinar is viewing himself, he is being very lucid. My issues are with the narrative not offering this perspective and presenting was essentially is a pro-Dalinar narrative when the character deserved a more nuanced portrayal.
@47 slaybalj
Good point. Gavilar did try to solve the issue of the Rift diplomatically, so there is some responsibility on Tanalan for pushing war.
Thanks! :)
@54 CireNaes
Interesting thoughts and comparison! Dalinar was certainly being groomed for a very long time by Odium. That Dalinar ultimately breaks free from Odium and chooses to be a better man is very inspiring.
#42 slaybalj
Count me amongst those who are also annoyed at Tanalan. His revenge was more important than his family, his people, or his city. I feel like Odium was putting in overtime in Rathalas, likely for many years.
Does any one know for how long Odium;s forces have been active? I am curious because Nale started killing Radiants two decades before the present in an attempt to forestall the desolation. Did Odium’s forces pick up activity then, too?
Agreeing with the up-thread posts, the second battle of the Rift wasn’t a good guy/bad guy fight. It was “three different guys (and I mean guys) who were all bad in very different ways” fight.
Tanalan knowingly risked and sacrificed thousands out of rage and spite. Dalinar surrendered to rage and murdered those same innocents (along with letting many of his own men die) for the emotional release. Sadeas was icy-cold and ordered those same deaths yet again for reasons of pure ambition. None of them were anything but villains that day, but Sanderson made them quite distinct–and the puppetmaster behind the scenes of this whole thing, Gavilar, was also ambitious and willing to see these same innocents die, yet quite different from Sadeas.
The three at the Rift are united in selfishness, and interestingly in this one instance Sadeas might have been the least selfish.
Sanderson’s good at this stuff.
@57 Nale has been killing radiant-fleglings for centuries.
@59 – Those fledgling Radiants existed probably because some one-off spren who were like, “Shadesmar is boring. Laters.” And then when the True Desolation was coming, more Radiant spren were probably like, “We probably need to do the Radiant thing again, guys.”
@59
Pretty sure one of the Skybreakers tells Szeth that Nale has been offing fledgeling Radiants for about 20 years. I’ll try to find the reference later. I need to run off to work right now.
Edit: Could not find it, so I am wrong about that. The only timeline reference I could find was Nale saying in Edgedancer that if he left the Radiants alone too long they started clumping together these past five years.
Edit 2: Actually, I think I am wrong about the source of that information. I think I am remembering something the Ghostbloods said, not the Skybreakers. So I might be right about the twenty year thing afterall, but I can’t get back to my books til later to check on Ghostbloods instead of Skybreakers.
Edit 3: Found it, Chapter 40 of Oathbringer, in the letter from the Ghostbloods to Shallan about Helaran.
So while Nale may have been doing this for centuries, it has become noticeable for the last twenty years, which makes me think there was an upsurge in the number of spren trying to bond during that time. Since Nale also noted a change five years ago, with potentials Knights Radiants tending to find one another, I am thinking that a Desolation can be telegraphed many years before it happens. I am wondering what other things that happened during those decades were also connected to the approaching Desolation.
Haha ironically their rush to attack now before gav found out is made pointless when the found out he knew what they did and didn’t care and just played along with the cover story
Not that it isn’t an apt parallel you make, but as a history major the idea nukes ended the war and/or saved lives by preventing a costly invasion is completely a post war myth. They contributed, absolutely, and you’re right about their motivations but it was way more complicated. Some of the leaders dismissed it, we’d firebombed countless cities already, some knew it was true but also knew how difficult it was to produce more, and a huge portion were way more worried about the imminent Soviet invasion from Manchuria. And a major reason we dropped them was purely to show the USSR what we had.
But honestly for how many morally indefensible wars we’ve had and countless atrocities, stopping the Nazis and empire were one of the rare times we were in the right haha.
This is more like butchering civilians in Vietnam just to send a message for zero tactical benefit, going away beyond what Tanalans shitty scheming and arrogance called for