Welcome to the Malazan Re-read of the Fallen! Every post will start off with a summary of events, followed by reaction and commentary by your hosts Bill and Amanda (with Amanda, new to the series, going first), and finally comments from Tor.com readers. In this article, we’ll cover the Prologue and Chapter 1 of Memories of Ice by Steven Erikson (MoI).
A fair warning before we get started: We’ll be discussing both novel and whole-series themes, narrative arcs that run across the entire series, and foreshadowing, so while the summary of events may be free of spoilers, the commentary and reader comments most definitely will not be. To put it another way: Major Spoilers.
Another fair warning! Grab a cup of tea before you start reading—these posts are not the shortest!
Prologue
SCENE 1
Set during the 33rd Jaghut War. Pran Chole (whom we saw in Silverfox’s birth in GotM) is looking at a scene preserved in ice: three extinct ranag trapped in a sinkhole—a male, mate and calf—along with six extinct Ay (huge wolves), though a young Ay seems to have escaped only to die, Pran thinks, in solitude. Pran Chole is joined by another Imass—Cannig Tol—and the two discuss how the Imass hunted creatures to extinction, and how they can see themselves and their war with the Jaghut in the scene before them. We then learn they are tracking Jaghut and are close. Pran senses another Bonecaster nearby, traveling alone.
SCENE 2
The Jaghut mother being pursued is exhausted and wounded and knows she and her son and daughter will be killed soon. She thinks they are the last Jaghut on this continent and recalls how she and other Jaghut allied with the Imass to chain the Tyrant Raest, knowing the Imass would turn on them immediately afterward. She is surprised by the Bonecaster Pran sensed, who offers the Jaghut mother a bargain: leave the mother for Pran’s group but the Bonecaster will save the children.
SCENE 3
The Bonecaster takes the boy and girl to a tower with a warren’s damaged gate high up in the air. She assumes it is Omtose Phellack (Jaghut warren) due to its proximity to the tower, which seems Jaghut in nature. She plans to send them through to save them.
SCENE 4
Pran Chole’s group finds the Jaghut mother, without her children. She tells him the other Bonecaster took her children to a gate in the south. The Imass kill her. Pran tells Cannig they must head south quickly as the other Bonecaster is about to send the children through the Rent at Morn, incorrectly believing it to be Omtose Phellack. Cannig tells Pran to go quickly for “we are not cruel.”
SCENE 5
The renegade Bonecaster sends the children through. Pran appears and she identifies herself as Kilava of the Logros clan. Pran tells her the Jaghut tower was atop the ruins of an ancient city and it was the Rent that destroyed the city. He asks Kilava how such wounds are sealed and she says if a soul had sealed it, her sending the children in would free it and put the children in its place. He challenged her to sacrifice herself to save the children, knowing she will not. Looking at a large mound on the plain, he tells her the prior soul has arrived, though it will have to free itself of the tomb and dig out from under the lava flow, meaning they have time to deal with it. He adds they’ll have lots of time, as the First Gathering has been called to perform the Ritual of Tellann. Kilava says they’re all insane to make themselves immortal to fight a war and declares she will defy the call. He tells her he has spiritwalked far into the future and has seen his T’lan Imass self. She says her brother will be pleased: Onos T’oolan, the First Sword. At his name, Pran identifies just who she is; she is the one who slaughtered her clan and kin save for Tool. She says she did it to “break the link and thus achieve freedom.” She asks Pran who built the ancient city and he answers K’Chain Che’Malle. When Kilava says she knows almost nothing of them, Pran says he’s pretty sure they’ll learn.
SCENE 6
Set three years after the Fall of the Crippled God on the Korelri and Jacuruku continents. The Fall had destroyed an entire continent with firestorms for months, the fallen god screaming in pain the whole time, the pain eventually turning to rage then poison. K’rul walks the continent among the few survivors, feeding on the blood from the Fall and from the killings in his wake, thinking this power will be needed.
SCENE 7
The Crippled God had broken into pieces. K’rul had seen some of the pieces and the maggots crawling from them and then turning into Great Ravens. He thinks it will be long before the Crippled God could reclaim the fragments and show its true nature and K’rul worries it will be insane from the shattering. The summoners of the god had opened a portal through chaos to an alien world and pulled the god down for power to try and destroy Kallor. K’rul had come here to destroy Kallor who had ruled with such “heartless mastery,” worse even than a Jaghut tyrant. He was to be joined by two other Elder Gods whom he now senses nearing. He senses as well a one-eyed beast following, wounded by the Fall. A beast that has roamed this land long before Kallor’s Empire rose. As K’rul walks across Jacuruku, he sees no life, just ash. The other two gods—Draconus and Sister of Cold Night— approaching from other directions, tell him they are finding the same. The three meet Kallor, sitting on his throne atop a hill of bones. They tell him they came to end his “reign of terror” and he tells them he conquered the continent in only 50 years, save for Ar-datha who has fled. He then says they will not be able to liberate his people as he has killed them all, incinerating the entire continent. K’rul tells the others he will “fashion a place for this. Within myself”—another warren [the Imperial Warren]. Draconus and Sister are appalled at the cost to K’rul. The three curse Kallor to: “know mortal life unending. Mortal in the ravages of age, in the pain of wounds . . . dreams brought to ruin. In love withered . . . you shall never ascend . . . each time you rise, you shall then fall. All that you achieve shall turn to dust in your hands.” In turn, Kallor, using the power of all the death he caused, curses them: “K’rul you shall fade from the world [and] be forgotten. Draconus, what you create shall be turned upon you. And as for you woman, unhuman hands shall tear your body into pieces upon a field of battle, yet you shall know no respite.”
SCENE 8
They create the warren to hold the destruction so the land might heal. K’rul is nearly broken by it, wounded for all time, and he can already feel his worship dwindling. Draconus mentions he has been forging a sword since “the time of All Darkness,” a sword that “possesses a finality.” K’rul suggests he change the sword before finishing it and Draconus agrees. Sister says she won’t live her life worrying about the curse and her destruction will come from betrayal. The others advise she be careful whom she chooses to fight for and also finds herself a companion.
SCENE 9
The one-eyed beast, identified as more ancient than the Elder Gods, watches the Elder Gods depart. It has lost its mate and will seek it. It heads into its own warren.
Amanda’s Reaction to the Prologue
Okay, anyone else foreseeing wrist strain from this one? *hefts tome*
Since this novel is called Memories of Ice, and we all now associate ice with the Jaghut, I sense we will be delving much more into the history of their war. The extract at the start of the Prologue also emphasises this as it tells about the titanic struggle between the two races: “Sorceries raged until the sky itself was fire…”
298,665 years before Burn’s Sleep—way to remind us instantly about the tremendous scope of this series. I am still sometimes totally overwhelmed by the idea of how much worldbuilding went into the Malazan Book of the Fallen….
One thing I love about Erikson’s writing is that you can feel instantly that you are reading one of his novels—after two books, the style is enormously recognisable and we can see themes that flow from book to book, such as the first sentence here: “Swallows darted through the clouds of midges dancing over the mudflats.” Insects! Straight away!
Is it just me that reads about that inland sea and wonders about the name of the sea that became Raraku? The words “born from the shattering of the Jaghut ice-fields” conveys such earth-shattering pain and destruction.
Pran Chole—if I hadn’t read Bill’s synopsis of the Prologue I wouldn’t have remembered this chap! I dread to think how bad I’ll be when reaching the final novel and trying to dredge up details….
Once again we are given a nice example of how Erikson builds a world and its creatures without unnecessary explanation—here, Pran observes the ranag and the ay, and we’re given enough detail to realise they can be equated to elk and wolves, for instance.
Again an emphasis on age and ancient battles with the ranag and ay tableau—“We see before us an ancient battle. These statements have depth, for they stir my soul.” It is interesting that we are looking back on this period, and Pran and Cannig are looking back further. I like the symmetry.
Also, the description of hunting the animals to extinction demonstrates the lack of foresight of various races—and has extreme parallels with what we are doing these days. I do like the fact that a lot of Erikson’s work has got enormous resonance when considering modern times—the careless manner in which we treat the other humans and animals who share our world. Hindsight is a terrible thing.
Okay, ‘fess up—who needed a dictionary to find out what “crepuscular” meant? Just me?
Here again we have a conflict where we might have difficulty knowing what side to root for. The last time we saw Pran Chole, he was instrumental in the rebirth of Tattersail into Silverfox and so I personally felt as though he was a decent chappie. Here he is pursuing a Jaghut mother and two exhausted children for less than happy purposes. Good or evil? Ah yes, I forgot, Erikson doesn’t play with white and black hats on his characters!
A couple of comments—there is mention that the Imass and Jaghut are able, at times, to cooperate, such as over the chaining of Raest; the Jaghut mother also believes the Imass care nothing for torture—well, we’ve seen the Imass break every bone in the body of a Jaghut child and bury it under rock; is that not torture?
It’s very odd the sort of things in books that make you grimace. Here I’ll say that the Jaghut children suckling the breasts of the Imass made me cringe a little, knowing at least a little of the history between the races….
“The rotted tooth of a ruined tower rose from the plain’s edge…” Now that doesn’t sound like a pleasant place, does it? Rotted teeth are never fun!
“She could not recognise the warren—the old damage obscured the portal’s characteristics.” Who thinks that playing with unknown warrens is a seriously bad idea? When she suggests the elder warrens it might be, she doesn’t think about Tiste Andii or Tiste Edur—is this because those races have not yet arrived in the Malazan Empire, or because she’s unaware, or…?
What is the Rent? What do the Imass know about it? “Go to Morn, Bonecaster,” the Clan Leader whispered. “We are not cruel.” This doesn’t sound good for those poor Jaghut children.
Ooh, now what has been released by the exchange of souls? What or who? Since we’re currently back in the past the soul could be anyone. It sounds like a Big Bad… The Crippled God? The Tiste Edur? Someone we’ve met already? Someone we’re yet to meet? “The creature must now free itself of its tomb, and that has been thoroughly warded.”
The Imass became the T’lan Imass for the sake of their eternal war with the Jaghut? How unutterably sad, and single-minded, and, quite honestly, horrific. [Bill: Single-minded is rarely a good trait in the Erikson universe.]
The city was built by the K’Chain Che’Malle—a name we have heard before, and never under positive circumstances.
Now here is something that occurs to me with the second part of the prologue: since I am aware that the Crippled God is a big enough feature of the series to have the final novel named after him/her/it, I keep trying to spot the first arrival on the scene. But, other than jade statues, I think this is the first occasion that we see any proper mention of the Crippled God and the effect he/she/it has had on history. [Bill: Erikson is tricky—we get a throwaway references by the T’lan Imass who board Silanda in DG. One of them mistakenly refers to Kulp as “Servant of the Chained One.”]
But what a mention! “The conflagration had seemed unending, world-devouring, weeks into months, and through it all could be heard the screams of a god.”
Oooh, was it just me thinking Star Wars at this line: “Pain gave birth to rage. Rage, to poison, an infection sparing no-one.” It was a little Darth Vader!
Elder Gods. Elder warrens. A fallen god. Wow, the possibilities for “harsh unpleasantries” are many….
“The foreign god had been torn apart in his descent to earth.” The Crippled God came from elsewhere? The same as the Tiste races? Does he belong to them?
Dear Lord, and the god was brought through to destroy SOMEONE ELSE?!
“Desperate enough to part the fabric of chaos, to open a way into an alien, remote realm; to then lure a curious god of that realm closer, ever closer to the trap they had prepared. The summoners sought power. All to destroy one man.”
Wait…. Kallor… We’ve heard that name, haven’t we? Wasn’t he connected to Brood in GotM? [Bill: Yep.]
And Draconus—he forged Dragnipur, right? [Bill: Yep again.]
These are some weighty names we’re seeing right from the first page!
Oh! And here we’re seeing the creation of the warren used by the Imperial Army—all that death and destruction, all those bones and statues and the dust of ages, that is all Jacuruku, within the Imperial warren. “They merged their power to draw chains around a continent of slaughter, then pulled it into a warren created for that sole purpose, leaving the land itself bared. To heal.”
And, considering what he has dealt upon the people he held tyrannical sway over, I think it is more than fitting punishment for Kallor—to always live, and never ascend.
Sister of Cold Nights: I don’t recognise the name at all. Help?
Will be interesting to revisit the prologue having read the entire novel!
Bill’s Comments on the Prologue
We’ve heard a lot about the T’lan and Jaghut wars, or, another perspective, pogroms. And it was relatively early in GoTM that we had our first hint that the simplistic “Imass good—Jaghut bad cuz they’re tyrants” wasn’t going to be the whole story, as in this exchange between Lorn and Tool:
“Tool, they [The Jaghut] weren’t very warlike, were they? I mean, before your kind sought to destroy them.”
“Even then,” he said at last. “The key lay in making them angry . . . ”
Then of course in DG we have the Jaghut ghost and his family, including the children whose bones were shattered and pinned under rocks, an image that can’t help but raise the reader’s sympathy. And Amanda, it does seem to call into question Pran’s comments, though we’re told they didn’t “have time.” I think what we see in that is how the T’lan Imass have a ruthless pragmatism that can in fact substitute for cruelty, save in the eye of the ruthlessly pragmatic. And/or possibly the idea that the Imass have degenerated in their view of cruelty—either accepting it or losing their awareness of it—the effect of an eternal war.
Here we get to see the war in action. But first we open with another of those scene settings. The Jaghut sorcery is breaking and so the land is recovering from the glaciers, though “memories of mountain-high ice” remain (title flag!). The freshwater sea that had formed with the breaking of the Jaghut sorcery is itself morphing as the land rises. And within the geological lies the biological. Literally in this case, as Pran Chole looks on the an ancient scene frozen before him— a family of ranag surrounded by the ay hunters who fell victim to the same sinkhole as the ranag, another “memory of ice.” (By the way—we’ve seen this before with the Semk god in DG and we’ll see it again later). Okay, there’s a lot to unpack here:
Layers and changes: generational shifts, and remnants/scars/legacies of what came before. It’s a theme we’ve already seen (think the detritus of civilizations or the sea that lies below Raraku in DG) and which we’ll see repeatedly throughout the series, all the way to TCG. The geological shift is mirrored by population shifts as well: ice to sea to newly birthed land—Jaghut to Imass to Human. (Although let’s not assume it ends there. After all, it never has).
Hunter and hunted: The scene is mirrored by the T’lan Imass and Jaghut frozen in endless war: hunter and hunted, both made victim, both sinking.
Overhunting and ecological ripples: the recognition by Cannig that they have hunted the tenag and ranag to extinction which in turn led to the starvation of the ay and so on certainly has echoes with our own experiences, as Amanda has pointed out, as well as other unintended ecological consequences of our actions. It’s a reference to ecological short-sightedness that builds on Duiker’s little mini-history in DG about the deforestation.
All of this could have been too blunt a metaphor, so I like how Erikson filters it rather through the eyes of Pran Chole and Cannig Tol, allowing the characters to wrestle with the metaphor, so it becomes part of the story rather than a loud red flag waved from the author to the reader.
Moving on, I like how Jaghut and Imass are further blurred by language when Pran Chole looks at his shadow (his darker self) and thinks it makes him look “almost as tall as a Jaghut.” Then again when he thinks how “when pursuing Jaghut, the distinction of hunter and hunted had little meaning.”
“Crepuscular” Love that word. And of course, it is the “twilight” of the Jaghut, and, in differing fashion, of the Imass.
We find more reasons to sympathize with the Jaghut in the next scene:
- We have a mother’s pov. It has to be a pretty bad mom (think closet hangars) for one to not sympathize with a mother’s pov.
- It’s a mother contemplating the death of her children and taking comfort in the fact that her hunters aren’t cruel, but will kill quickly and cleanly.
- We find out that she had been allies with the Imass.
- She had turned against her own—good ole Raest from GoTM.
- Her lack of bitterness at all that. Can any of us say we would reject bitterness in that situation?
- The idea that Jaghut mothers have “always [sought] bargains to spare the lives of [their] children” and that the Imass “never agree to them.” Try and picture that scene occurring time and time again and not feel sympathy.
Note the detail regarding Kilava: “Her large swollen breasts indicating she had recently birthed.”
Hmm, perhaps the “cracked” earth, the “wound,” the “birth” of a “molten river . . vast and black . . . of stone and ash,” the “rotted tooth of a ruined tower,” the “red welt,” and Kilava’s “unease” are small clues that what seems like an act of compassion might not end well. Just saying.
Or the “sultry clouds of dust that hung motionless in her wake,” though that line has depths of echoes to it: the dust that the T’lan Imass will be/travel as when the Ritual is performed as well as the idea of of our actions haunting us, riding in our wake always.
Remember that physical description: mounds in circles, a larger one in the center, a ruined tower.
Note the scent of “one ancient and dead, the other . . . less so.” Less so is not so good, maybe.
Her thoughts, “the journey will not be long. Your mother waits beyond” are indeed a lie, though the first as much as the second, though Kilava doesn’t know it. And never, never, ever ask “what could be worse than death” in a fantasy novel. Turns out lots of things can be (it also turns out, as we’ll see in this book, that death might not be so bad).
I like the irony of the conversation between Pran Chole and the Jaghut mother, how she says she always thought the Imass lacked “such concepts as compassion and mercy” followed immediately by Pran Chole displaying both qualities by not telling her what is about to unfold with her children. And then shortly afterward (after killing the mother) Cannig Tol does the same, telling Pran to hurry to try and “save” the Jaghut children—save them by killing them cleanly and quickly as the Jaghut mother took former comfort in, echoing Pran’s interior thought with his own spoken one: “We are not cruel.”
“Morn.” Hmmm, is it “morn” as in morning and thus rebirth, new life, new hope or is that other kind of “morn”, which is umm, not so much?
Funny to hear Pran Chole described as a “young man,” isn’t it?
And then we get the horror that will reverberate throughout this book (and in ripples throughout the series). The rent is not Omtose Phellack. It is a wound sealed by a soul, a soul that suffers for all eternity. Unless it is replaced, as it just has been. And beyond the tragic horror of the children is the idea that something has been freed, something powerful enough to free itself of that massive tomb then through the stone itself. And yes, we will see just what that was. By the way, if you recall, we were set up for this sort of plot point in DG when Stormy, Gesler, etc. were on the Silanda and a group of T’lan Imass appeared, one of them sacrificing himself (seemingly at least—remember that Tiste Andii head…) to seal a rent.
We also find out the Gathering is nigh (soon to be known as the First Gathering, implying…), when the Imass enact the Ritual of Tellann and become the T’lan Imass that we’ve seen in the prior two books. All for the sake of war. Kilava, however, tells us she will not partake of the ritual, which of course also begs the question of whether other Imass did the same. And now we get more connections to the prior books (we’ve seen Pran already in his “withered” form when he helps birth Silverfox, and we’ve met Raest of course) when we learn that Kilava is the sister of Tool. We also learn why Tool is “clanless”—because his sister killed their clan. More details to follow….
We’ve had K’Chain Che’Malle mentioned before (remember the bone phone from GoTM) here and there, but Pran Chole is right when he implies we’re about to hear much more about that race. Much, much more.
Speaking of things we’ll hear more of. The Crippled God. And what a scene we get of his fall. It’s interesting to note that for all the ways we’ll soon see the Crippled God, he’s introduced to us as being pulled down unwillingly and “screaming” for months, as being in pain (the word is used three times in this regard in close proximity) and grief. Though then his “pain gave birth to rage. Rage to poison”—poison being a word associated with him and that will play a major role in MoI.
We’ve seen K’rul before, of course, and his connection to blood. Remember he was reawakened when blood fell in the bell tower of his temple in Darujhistan. And in this prologue we find out why he was “asleep.”
It’s a bit of a tease to tell us that those who summoned down the Crippled God did so out of desperation to kill one man—what and who could have driven them to such straits? Here I picture “Kallor” being said in the same way Seinfeld used to say “Newman” on that show.
Yum, maggots. Crawling out of “rotting, endlessly pulsing meat and broken bone.” But soon transformed into Great Ravens (think Crone from GoTM). File that fact away. Also the idea that the CG came down in pieces.
Kallor. Think of all the bad stuff we’ve been told about the Jaghut Tyrants. So bad the Imass decided to make themselves immortal and kill all Jaghut to prevent them arising again. And now we’re told Kallor was worse. Fair warning then—don’t be surprised by Kallor’s actions in this book. (Which actions, of course, would be telling.)
Interesting too to note that K’rul, as we see in present time, is intervening for “good” here.
Ash. Ash and bone. Layers and heaps of it. Everything incinerated. Ring a bell anyone? Later we’ll be told K’rul will create a new warren to hold this all so the land may heal. Earlier, in DG, we had Kalam find a sign of Kallor in the warren he traveled through, a warren we’ve had repeatedly described as filled with ash.
How’s this for an image:
Upon a ragged hilltop where wind swirled through the ashes, spinning funeral wreaths skyward. Directly before them, on a heap of burnt bones, was a throne. The man seated upon it was smiling.
Tell me that’s not a portrait waiting to be painted. Or a movie scene waiting to be filmed.
And now we get the big reveal of just how bad Kallor is. Not only was he a tyrant of millions. He’s the murderer of them. All so they wouldn’t be taken from him by these three Elder Gods: K’rul, Sister of Cold Nights (cough cough Nightchill cough Silverfox), and Draconus. The old “if I can’t have them, nobody can” game. Wow.
Then the formal exchange of curses (got to say, it does appear on the surface at least that Kallor seems to get the best of these curses, though perhaps not from his pov). Kallor gets unending life, though filled with mortal pain and age and despair and all he touches or attempts will turn to dust. Meanwhile, K’rul will fade away (until a certain night in Darujhistan). Draconus will have his creation turned against him (that special sword which we’ve already seen. hint—Draconus is associated with Darkness). And Sister of Cold Nights will be torn apart by demons outside Pale and then reborn into the body of Silverfox. (Okay, okay, Kallor’s curse was a tad less specific but I’m pretty sure this is all pretty straightforward here.) By the way, that curse on Kallor gives us some insight into what we saw in GoTM:
Kallor said: “I walked this land when the T’lan Imass were but children. I have commanded armies a hundred thousand strong. I have spread the fire of my wrath across entire continents, and sat alone upon tall thrones. Do you grasp the meaning of this?”
“Yes,” said Caladan Brood, “you never learn.”
We close nearly how we began, with an animal scene. In this case, an Elder Elder god (the Elder gods are young to him), one-eyed (ring a bell?) and searching for its mate. Much, much more to come from that angle.
And that, my friends, is one hell of a packed prologue, setting in motion events and characters not only for Memories of Ice, but plot threads, characters, and themes that will ripple all the way through to the bitter end, raising their heads (literally or metaphorically) in The Crippled God.
Chapter One
SCENE 1
Gruntle, leader of a caravan guard group (Harllo, Stonny Menackis), waits at the crowded ford outside Darujhistan to take his master’s (Keruli) carriage across. He is hailed by Emancipator Reese, who says his masters in another waiting carriage want to speak to him.
SCENE 2
Gruntle meets Bauchelain and feels immediately uneasy. Bauchelain tells Gruntle that Keruli’s “prying is none too subtle” and this time they’re making an exception to such invasion of privacy. He leads Gruntle to a fresh crater and introduces him to his partner Korbal Breach, who scares Gruntle even more than Bauchelain did. Bauchelain tells Gruntle the crater was a prison for a Jaghut Tyrant, freed by a T’lan Imass and a representative of the Malazan Empire, and mentions a few rumors that basically recap some highlights of GotM. He then says they’re going to explore the tomb and asks if Gruntle wants to join them, saying his master would probably urge him to accept. Gruntle refuses, then points out Moon’s Spawn in the distance moving away. When Bauchelain mentions the tilt, he’s impressed when Gruntle says that was caused by the Malazan mages. Broach seems a bit nervous at the idea that Rake may sense them, but Bauchelain reassures him he senses no such thing. When the pair head into the tomb, Gruntle heads back, wishing Rake had sensed the two and done something about them.
SCENE 3
The one-eyed beast from the prologue (identified now as a wolf), has found a human body in the Warren of Chaos and while it hesitates over possibilities is pleasantly shocked by noting the human’s face is “mirrored” to its own, making its decision easier.
SCENE 4
Toc the Younger (one-eyed) awakens on a field with barrows, remembering the ambush by Hairlock and being thrown into a warren. He can tell by the condition of his bow it was a long time ago. He notes one has been holed. Atop the central barrow, he can see the ruins of a stone tower with a “welt in the sky beyond the tower.” Looking at the barrow, he sees something made its way out of it. As he heads for the tower, he stumbles across Tool who briefly recounts some of what happened in GotM and tells Toc they are in Morn and that the woman who lives in the tower has returned. He says he will help Toc with food and arrows. The woman approaches, flanked by Gareth—a large dog—and Baaljagg, an Ay, which shocks Tool. Tool identifies the woman as Lady Envy, daughter of Draconus (killed by Rake with Dragnipur, forged by Draconus) and sister to Spite. Tool wants to know what she’s doing in Morn. Inside the tower are three masked Seguleh. Toc says that for the Seguleh “rank is everything. If the hierarchy’s in doubt, challenge it” and that only the lowest ranked will speak with non-Seguleh. One of the Seguleh has only two slashes on it. Senu challenged Tool and is quickly knocked unconscious, even before he can fully draw his swords. Tool asks Envy what she knows of the Rent and she says it has been bridged by a mortal soul and it seems “almost mechanical.” She adds the K’Chain Che’Malle barrows have been empty for decades and one contained a Matron. She believes the Matron was the one originally sealing the Rent and she has been replaced. Tool says if she wants to know more, she should go with him, for he follows an ancient trail that will lead to her answers. He also tells her that her “old travelling companions”—Rake and Brood—are heading the same way, toward the Pannion Domin to fight against the Domin. Envy says she will accompany Tool and Toc north.
Amanda’s Reaction to Chapter One
Imrygyn Tallobant provides us a little look at the events of GotM, reminds us that the Pannion Seer is a big old threat, and then throws in the idea that the breaking of one bridge led to the Pannion Wars—all that in seventeen odd lines!
And then we immediately see the destroyed bridge through the eyes of one Gruntle—and are given a perspective on what this means for trading to and from Darujhistan.
I am already cheerful about the prospect of spending time with Gruntle (is it merely coincidence that whenever I see his name I also see the word “disgruntled”?) He is suitably cynical—not believing tales of dragons and demons without seeing them himself—and has a relatively low opinion of his fellow man. Definitely the sort of character that appeals to me!
I’m curious about Keruli—did he overhear the conversation between Gruntle or Reese, or is he all magelike? He’s certainly no damn merchant, that’s for sure! “Your rates were high? I see. Hmm. Inform your two companions, then, that an aversion to trouble will yield substantial bonuses to their pay.”
*giggles* I like the little fashion reference as we meet Master Bauchelain for the first time:
“Black,” the captain said to Reese, “was last year’s shade in Darujhistan.”
“Black is Bauchelain’s eternal shade, sir.”
Oh, I think I’m going to like Bauchelain too! I’d heard that he and Korbal Broach are some of the most entertaining and amusing characters Erikson has written, based on the novellas, so I have been most intrigued to meet them myself. I do like this exchange:
“You have had schooling, then. How interesting. You’re a swordsman, are you not? What need you for letters and numbers?”
“And you’re a man of letters and numbers—what need you for that well-worn broadsword at your hip and that fancy mail hauberk?”
“An unfortunate side effect of education among the masses is lack of respect.”
“Healthy skepticism, you mean.”
“Disdain for authority, actually.”
What I sense is that Gruntle is very much a man hardened by life and experience—it does not seem to be idle boasts concerning the fact that he and his two companions are worth much more than ordinary guards. So the fact that he feels very real fear about Bauchelain and Korbal Broach suggests they truly are men to be feared. Men? perhaps not. What is their profession? Why does Bauchelain hesitate as he refers to Korbal Broach as his partner? What is their interest in tombs…?
I think Gruntle is very astute when he wishes that Anomander Rake had sensed these two, and removed them from the game.
Oooh! The Elder Elder wolf has discovered Toc the Younger—is he going to do some good old god possession? “The gift, the creature saw at last, was a true one. Nothing else could explain what it discovered in the mortal man’s face. A mirrored spirit, in every detail.” One eye, see?
I’m so, so, so glad to see the return of Toc the Younger—I was really beginning to enjoy reading about him in GotM when he was so abruptly removed from proceedings. How scary must it be to wake in a place you don’t know, after days or weeks have passed, with no real knowledge of what must have happened? Consequently, Toc’s pragmatism and admonitions to himself to think like a soldier and ensure his survivial shows a rare man indeed.
I am also pleased to see Tool again—the unique, deadpan humour of this character is very rewarding. Toc and Tool have been effectively used by Erikson here to bring the reader up to speed on various events—such as the death of Lorn, the fact that the Malazan Empire failed to take Darujhistan.
The difference in perspective of Toc and the reader here is incredibly amusing—when Lady Envy and her lineage are introduced (the daughter of the god who forged Dragnipur), the reader will suck their teeth and understand that she is powerful beyond comprehending and probably an Ascendant if not a god. Toc has only heard the name Anomander Rake, and only to the extent that he has been a supposed enemy of the Malazan Empire.
Despite this, even Toc knows enough to feel unease about having to furnish Lady Envy with a favour to be specified some time in the future. I have a feeling that will become a big plot point! Don’t make bargains with gods!
With the Segulah we see another example of Erikson just overturning tropes a little—usually intricately marked face masks would indicate a leader. Here, it seems as though the Segulah marked only with twin slashes is the one to be most feared.
“Trying to make sense of the conversation thus far was giving him a headache.” Finally one of the characters feels what the reader feels at times!
And yet more about the K’Chain Che’Malle—I’ve been intrigued about them for three books now, and it looks like they’re about to come front and centre!
Bill’s Comments on Chapter One
So here we are two months after the events of GoTM’s close. (Take the clear dates when you get ‘em I say.)
Our first introduction to Gruntle is of him as a skeptic. Get used to it.
We also get an early hint that Keruli (Gruntle’s boss) is much more than he appears: his equanimity, his knowledge of things beyond his carriage though he’s never left it, his lack of concern with money and lack of knowledge about prices for caravan guards. Interesting name as well.
Ahh, Bauchelain and Roach. These two make for some great moments in the series and I highly recommend Erikson’s collection of three novellas with them as the main characters.
More of the ecological theme here as Bauchelain discusses the eco-web involving fire, prairie grasses, the bhederin herds and the disruption soon to be caused by the introduction of goats (a topic mentioned in DG as well by Duiker). From the specific Bauchelain segues into the general: “violence and destruction, both vital for life,” and so on to another major theme in the series—balance of opposing forces.
Note the clever little plot summary we get of events in GoTM here. It’s been years after all between books, and even if one is reading them once they’re all out (Amanda), it’s been an entire novel since we were last here. Bauchelain’s dialogue, as well as Gruntle’s thoughts on the rumors regarding the bridge’s destruction are highly efficient ways to concisely recap important events without stalling narrative.
I mentioned the one-eye of the wolf in the Prologue as in important detail and now we return to that one-eyed character it was meant to recall: Toc the Younger. And while Toc “mirrors” the Wolf God physically via the one eye, one has to wonder if there’s a bit more to the idea of the human and the predator being “mirrors” of each other as well.
Here’s that physical landscape from the prologue again: the mounds and a large central one, for the careful reader to recognize Toc’s location as Morn. And the careful reader will also note the previously unholed barrows are now open—that something that was released by Kilava and working its way out appears to have done so.
More concise and perfectly natural recaps of GoTM-first in Toc struggling to recall what happened to him and then when he asks Tool to tell him what happened.
More on the themes of ecology, and of struggle. Life as a perpetual war for dominance and survival and the distinction between the animals and the sentient, according to Tool, is the sentient have “the privilege of choice” and “the gift of foresight.” Though ironically enough, our “foresight” often comes too late. Or at least, our recognition of those gifts and the responsibilities they bring do.
So we’ve got the Seguleh introduced now. And their obsession with hierarchy via the sword. Senu has challenged Tool and lost quickly. That’s one down, two to go, unless anyone thinks Lady Envy is really going to be able to prevent challenges for a few more hundred pages. Anyone?
We finally learn what was released when Kilava sent the Jaghut children into the rent. Turns out it was a K’Chain Che’Malle Matron who escaped her tomb, then released her children and departed. Begging the question of where are they now, of course. And now we’ve got a road trip and a plan to find Rake and Brood and those heading to the Pannion, along with whatever trail Tool is on.
A K’Chain Che’Male Matron. The Pannion Seer. Tool and Toc. Lady Envy. Seguleh. A pair of dogs (or akin to dogs). Gruntle. Keruli. Stonny. Kallor. Nightchill. K’rul. Bauchelain and Roach. We don’t have all our characters on stage yet, but we’ve got a bunch. And soon we’ll return to some old friends.
Bill Capossere writes short stories and essays, plays ultimate frisbee, teaches as an adjunct English instructor at several local colleges, and writes SF/F reviews for fantasyliterature.com.
Amanda Rutter contributes reviews and a regular World Wide Wednesday post to fantasyliterature.com, as well as reviews for her own site floortoceilingbooks.com (covering more genres than just speculative), Vector Reviews and Hub magazine.
I’m going to begin contributing my own thorough reactions to the chapters we cover from now on, although like Bill I’m returning to the text for a second or third run rather than for the wide-eyed stupid view Amanda has walked into this with. I probably wont cover all the opening poems and excerpts with as critical eye as our hosts, however, as poetry and I don’t exactly get along. But, I’ll do my best.
Luckily, the Prologue’s excerpt is short and entirely devoid of any and all poetry, saving me the trouble of getting dizzy-eyed and passing out on the floor in a quivering wreck. I get to ease into it! Go me. Anyway, this particular bit of text, describing the war between the T’Lan Imass and Jaghut, serves more as way to set the mood for the passages that follow than as a sneaky bit of foreshadowing. So let’s get into what it sets the mood for then, shall we?
I’d forgotten how succinctly the opening of this novel so captured the meaning of the title of this book. There are many echoes of it throughout, but in most books the “catch” moment where you say “ooooooh, that’s why it’s called _____” happens near the end. Erikson choosing to start the novel with the land’s very literal memory of ice was a nice touch, and serves as an excellent way to introduce concepts such as the ay. Keep the scene of the ranag and ay Chole finds in mind as well for the future; although it was used as an excuse for Erikson to once more to wax philosophical, much to my delight, he rarely spends a full two pages discussing something without it having some meaning further down the line. But that’s all I’ll say on that for now.
Another thing I like about this opening section is its exploration of the subtle compassion of the Imass. In my mind, it’s a big way in which Erikson uses the T’lan Imass to overturn the trope of evil or mindless undead the fantasy genre has been so heavily inundated with. Although I’ve made clear that I, for the most part, dislike what the Imass become, my feelings towards them are not entirely negative. Character like Pran Chole, Kilava and Tool exemplify this with the compassion they let bleed through with every action and reaction. Even in killing, Pran Chole manages to keep that warmth about him like a furred cloak. And speaking of him, you’ve got to love the shout-out to Kruppe he shoots out when Kilava brings up her challenge to the Ritual. As Kruppe told him, he’s certainly got a long wait ahead of him before he gets to see the child he helped birth.
Kilava, on the other hand, has a very different journey ahead of her. A sign that not all Imass accepted the ritual, and an explanation to why Tool was considered clanless during his visit in Gardens of the Moon, she made an interesting entry on my first read-through and remains a favorite still. Not to mention that son of hers. But maybe I’m just biased because she refused T’Lan.
And the children disappear into the gate, unsealing whatever was left within from the time of the K’Chain Che’Malle. All important information to remember for later. You don’t start a book on a red herring, after all. ^^;;
Then we return to another old friend, also from Kruppe’s gathering; K’rul, at the height of his power. I find it both horrific and magnificent, how Erikson described K’rul’s power and worship. “Elder Gods embodied a host of harsh unpleasantries.” is quite the understatement when compared to the sentences that directly precede it!
Another interesting tidbit comes shortly after.
“Had seen what those maggots flowered into. . . . they wheeled above him on their
broad, black wings.”
Five points to any first-time reader who’s already guessed what those are. In either case, the answer will come soon.
And then we reach K’rul’s destination, and Kallor has set a scene so terrible that even the Elder Gods, whose blood-fueled worship we’ve already seen terrible examples of, are horrified. For the moment though, it’s best to file away these new names for future reference; Draconus and the Sister of Cold Nights. Another five points to anyone who can figure out where both gods are now from their curses and descriptions alone. There’s some rather big clues in there about both of them which seem glaringly obvious to me now, and made me wonder how I managed to miss the Sister of Cold Night’s secret entirely until a later novel.
I have to note that I love the echo of the “harsh unpleasantries” line in a more favorable light at the end of this section. As for our beast friend, well, there’ll be time for that soon enough. Now, on to the next Chapter!
Again, we have an easy start to book one that more sets the scene as anything else. It’s like that moment in a horror film where the soundtrack stops and everything is silent, and you’re tense and waiting for the monster to jump out of the shadows. Any chapter now that poem is going to come knocking! The chapter intro, on the other hand, is a bit trickier; an examination of the nature of memories? I have to think this is set to guide us towards the theme the book’s title represents, but make no definitive claims in that regard.
And then we’re on to a new cast of characters. I still laugh a little in my mind every time I picture Harllo as described, even if he gives me Lady in the Water flashbacks like a Vietnam veteran freaking out to a gunshot. I’m sure I exaggerate it a bit, making a cartoonish monstrosity that’s about 60% arm and 40% torso, but the point remains that whatever else he is, he’s memorable. Gruntle also makes for a rather fun narrator, giving the award-winning combination of sarcasm and pessimism in every description. Keruli and Stonny I’ll get to later, when they get a bit more screen time.
For the moment, however, we have the ever-eloquent Emancipor Reese, and the mysterious Korbal and Bauchelain. Having not read the short-novels Erikson went on to write about these three, they remain a dark pall over this section of the novel. Not because they’re a pain to read, or anything of the sort, but because they’re creepy in a “I think I need to bathe in holy water to get the eerie off” kind of way. I do appreciate their desire to remind us of the events of Gardens of the Moon though in the midst of all these character introductions and general creepiness. Thanks for the recap, guys!
Also, I have to throw this out there because I’m not entirely sure . . . is the reason Reese is with these creepers because they reanimated his cat or something? I don’t think the details were ever really in this novel.
And the scene shifts. I didn’t buy Toc’s “death” for a second in Gardens of the Moon, simply because his death came so suddenly and unremarked after so much development that never served a solid narrative purpose. Sure, Erikson will sometimes play with sudden, violent deaths, but usually there’s a thematic element to that character’s storyline that complements what is happening. Not so with Toc and Hairlock, and now we find it was less a death than being put in narrative cold storage until the time came to defrost on High Telas for five minutes. Then season with ancient chaos wolf, and serve with broccoli. Or Lady Envy, the Seguleh and Tool, either way.
Anyway, specifics! Note that itch again. If you didn’t pick up on what made his missing eye itch in Gardens of the Moon, hopefully you’ll do so soon! It’s only worth three points now.
Anyway, there’s that gate again. Hello, Jaghut children! Having fun in there? Well, since they described it as an eternity of pain, chances are probably not. But in the meantime something big and nasty has escaped from beneath the hillside, just as Pran Chole said it would. Recently too. Dun dun DUN!
Tool’s re-introduction earns another chuckle from me as well. Stumbling over a corpse, then striking up a conversation after you realize you recognize it; just picturing that scene brings a smirk to my face. As does Tool’s play at humor. He’s just such an endearing character when you look past all that desiccated flesh, and his pairing with Toc is a fun one in my mind.
Then we meet Baaljagg and Garath . . . and I cannot for the life of me remember what Garath was. Not a normal dog, for sure, but the dog’s secret completely evades me. I’ll have to rely on the hints and clues as much as Amanda in figuring that one out. Baaljagg, on the other hand . . . well, all I’ll say is in the short time since we started the novel, we’ve gotten some clues already.
Here come Envy and her pet Seguleh! I find the Seguleh a very, very interesting aspect of the Malazan world, and desperately wish we had more information from them. Unfortunately, everyone knows better than to visit the Seguleh isle, although I think Esslemont may visit it at some point in the future given some of the links his characters have had with them. Again, note the itch though. If it wasn’t obvious already, Toc just gave you a big clue as to what is going on here.
Looks like Draconus’ fate has also been answered in plain language now. I revoke my five points to anyone I gave it to! Unless you got the Sister of Cold Nights too, of course.
As for Envy herself, I find Toc’s method of handling her to be just as fun as his growing link with Tool. Envy gives the feeling that she’s used to being obeyed without question, and Toc’s dismissive sarcasm has proven a point of interest for her. It does say a lot about Envy though. If being the daughter of an Elder God and taming Seguleh in her spare time didn’t already say enough.
And then back to the echo of our prologue; we have what escaped, the K’Chain Che’Malle Matron, as well as the fact that she emptied the tombs of all her children. Both very important facts.
More itching, wild desire, etc. That’s all I’ll say about Envy for now, other than that her last line of dialogue is absolutely hilarious. Don’t worry, we’re looking forward to it too!
A thing to consider about the prologue. The Jaghut knows the Imass are not cruel. This is before the ritual of Tellan. She expects them to just quickly kill her children. Probably Pran Chole and Cannig Tol would have done just that. We’ve seen awful cruelty towards the Jaghut in Deadhouse Gates. I’d wager though that those actions were post-ritual. What Bill describes as pragmatic is just so. I don’t think the T’lan really had any sort of emotion at all. The concept of cruelty wouldn’t really fit. Logic only, no feelings. Certain events later in the series seem to lend credence to that. So the T’lan themselves wouldn’t have viewed breaking bones and pinning as cruel but simply practical and expeditious. (Notwithstanding what the victim likely thought).
Kilava’s comment about the “mother” beyond the rent is extremely ironic. Certainly was, but not Jaghut. Instead the KCCM matron.
I’d forgotten how much I liked Lady Envy. And Tool. And his interaction with the Seguleh.
@Amanda:
In Gardens of the Moon we have at the beginning of Chapter 12:
Hooray, no more walls of text just from me. I’ll join myself next Tuesday or so after I actually finish DG.
In the meantime @Amanda:
Is it just me that reads about that inland sea and wonders about the name of the sea that became Raraku?
Raraku is in the Seven Cities subcontinent. The Prologue here is set in the middle of Genabackis (…I think).
The awe about the prologue is also about seeing the end of a cycle. A world that changes (and not merely about the sea, it’s also the story of those Ranag and Ay).
And:
Sister of Cold Nights: I don’t recognise the name at all. Help?
*chuckle* Enjoy.
And I hope no one spoilers it for you ;)
Bill, you kind of spoilered who the Sister of Cold Nights is. I’m not sure everyone would put that together at this point. I know that on first read I certainly hadn’t. It’s only a minor reveal so it’s not a big deal.
IIRC, the marks on the Seguleh’s masks are indicative of their rank, in reverse order. So the head Seguleh or undisputed master would have zero (correct me if i’m wrong on this). The more marks you have, the more fighters are ranked above you, hence the lower your rank. The owner of the mask with 2 slashes would mean he is of higher rank than the owners of masks with several more slashes. Hope that makes sense!
Yeah, both Sister of the Cold Nights and the maggots transformation in a couple paragraphs. Bill took the A-Train to Spoilerville for a bit there.
And there is nothing wrong with that, guys. This book is 10 years old. ;-)
(Amanda has stated several times that she doesn’t mind spoilers…)
The opening scene takes place 298,665 years before Burn’s sleep. Pran Chole notes that the gathering is about to happen. This gives us a pretty good indication on how old the T’Lan are.
The next one, 119,736 years before Burns Sleep. (Gotta love those exact figures here.) So, when (as Bill reminds us) Kallor says in GotM: “I walked this land when the T’lan Imass were but children.” it would seem that he is either lying or he has been around longer that it would seem reasonable for a mortal to be around. I’m going with lying.
Which brings me to the point of — OK, he’s just said he killed millions of people just to keep someone from freeing them from his mind numbing tyranny. We’ve talked about shades of evil before. I’m going to have to go with there not being a lot of shade for Kallor to hide in here. His actions here are just plain evil. Pure selfishness alloyed with pure destruction.
The image of him on his throne on a heap of bones is indeed a striking one. Another great image from SE.
The Bauchelain & Korbal Broach novellas are a lot of fun. They don’t interfere with the series, so I think people can feel free to read them at any time.
@ZetaStriker: The short answer as to why Reese is there is that he needed a job. B & K are really pretty good employers–in an odd fashion.
Oddly enough, Kallor has really grown on me, the more ‘ve learned about him. He’s not a character I’d want anything to do with in reality . . . but the Kallor we see here, in the present day, I actually empathize with. I doubt I’d feel the same about the megalomaniacal god-king that destroyed his empire a hundred thousand years before, however, so at this point there’s really no reason to want anything but his absolute eradication from the Malaz earth. And that feeling will only grow through this novel, so my point doesn’t really seem all that valid right now. ==;;
As for Korbal and Bauchelain, I really need to buy their stories. Once I finish The Crippled God and The Wise Man’s Fear, of course.
I may well be the only one here with this opinion, but I didnt like the Bauchelain and Korbal Broach novellas very much. They were fun in MoI, but that is because they were minor characters and by a wide margin not the most powerful players involved. In the novellas they are just that and I didnt like them in that role.
@@@@@ 13 Kah-thurak
you’re not alone :-)
It was a nice read, with some backgroundstory how Emancipor got stuck with them. But where I started rereading most of the books directly after finishing them, or before reading the following book, I haven’t got the intention in rereading the novalla’s any time soon.
Nevertheless, I’m really looking forward to the nice and very polite conversation they’ll have with another interesting character. I can’t read that scene without murmuring it for myself :-)
Still, ‘All is not well in Lamentable Moll’ is one of my favourite cover blurb first lines ever… ;-)
ZetaStriker@12: Regarding Reese: picture a situation where hitting the road with B&K seems preferable to staying…
@@@@@ 10. shalter
I don’t think Kalor is lying. He is still alive in “present” day, and living 180,000 years or for 300,000 years isn’t that much different, is it? Afterall, once you figure out how to do it, it is simple execution after that! :)
We also don’t know what race Kalor is, and when (if?) we find out, that might shed some light on how he managed to live so long.
There really is so much information given in these two chapters but also what struck me on re-read was the amount of humour present, like with Gruntle’s introduction, later events eclipsed my original impression of him and several other characters. On my first read through I missed the significance of the ‘maggots’, it wasn’t until later I picked up on it.
The ecological themes really stood out and also the emphasis on balance. Tool’s comment ‘All is struggle, all is war for dominance. Those who lose, vanish.’ in reply to Toc’s comments about his people being ‘one with nature’ are interesting, and after the opening scene it seems to serve as a reminder that even though it is the humans that have now taken on the role of being the dominant species they are by no means the first to reveal such short sightedness.
There are things that being read with a knowledge of the other books in the series take on a slightly different aspect. Another exchange between Toc, ‘All I seek to do now is to return to Onearm’s Host’ and Tool, ‘A long journey.’ made me chuckle quite a bit although I felt quite mean for doing so.
I love Gruntle and pretty much every line he utters is amusing in some way. His meeting with Bauchelain and Korbal Broach is as creepy as I remember them being. I love his exchange with Harllo as well, they talk like friends who know each other well. That’s one of the things I love the most about Erikson he doesn’t say this character and this character have known each other for x amount of time, it’s all the the dialogue, POV and physical gestures.
Sorry, sometimes I don’t get things across very well and my mind has a tendency to jump about a bit, next time I’ll try to order my thoughts better!
Karsa@17:Kallor lives to the present day as a result of the Elder Gods curse:
“know mortal life unending. Mortal in the ravages of age, in the pain of wounds . . . dreams brought to ruin. In love withered . . . you shall never ascend . . . each time you rise, you shall then fall. All that you achieve shall turn to dust in your hands.”
So, it isn’t surprising that he is around in the current time books. If he had already been ‘immortal’ then the life unending part of the curse would have been redundant. There’s another reason for my thinking he is lying that we’ll find later on.
Incidentally, we’ll see how other aspects of the curse have played out.
ZetaStriker @1:
I read MoI years ago so I’m not completely positive, but I know what you are hinting at here and I think you’ve got the secret identities of Baaljagg and Garath reversed (yes, Baaljagg is the Ay and Garath is the dog).
@17 Karsa
I am pretty sure, that Kallor is called a “mortal human” in the prologue. His “immortality” is part of the curse shalter quoted and against the “Mortal in the ravages of age” part he uses alchemistic/magical solutions as we will see later on.
@14 Samar Dev
Yes that scene is great :-)
So, I have a number of questions re: the CG from prologue II that I’m sure are cleared up at some point (maybe not until the book that bears his name that I haven’t read yet)…
Was he hale prior to being pulled down? Who, exactly, did the pulling? Given the quote Shalter provided @@.-@, …
…how does “Crippled” = “Chained?”
The 3 elder Gods are called “- last of the elder – ” but we’ve certainly heard reference to (if not actulally seen) other elder. Where were they?
I recall from somewhere – and I can’t remember if its from earlier or later in the series – that the CG has been chained multiple times. Was he chained prior to the events in prolgue II? Given the mere 120,903 years between his fall (3 years prior to the events in the prologue) and the time of chapter 1, how many times has he been chained in the interim? Or was he chained at some point prior to that? If the answers involve extreme spoilage (especially if from tCG), please just tell me to RAFO.
The suggested tweaking of Draconus’s sword removes its “finality?” I wonder what the consequences of that might be? ….
I kind of liked Tool’s simple comment in Chapter 1 ; “Only decades?” hmmmm … says a lot.
And I’m still not picking up on Toc’s eye scratching.
Good Old Satan
I think the Crippled God was chained much later. He was pulled down to earth by some sorcerors hoping to use him to fight Kallor. His fall destroyed those sorcerors, much of the land around them and left him a cripple. I presume over 100,000 years he began to recover and various Gods and ascendants fearing him decided to chain him. The section that Shalter’s quote comes from mentions that Hood’s champion was present at the chaining meaning it must have been relatively recently. Whether it was the first chaining I’m not sure.
And here we are at one of my absolute favorites in the series… This is where the series really started happening for me – after the obligatory confusion of trying to remember who was who (reading Erikson books years apart without a reread is a very bad idea) it was really in MoI that I realized we were in for a very complex and layered ride.
Have to say Toc & Tool – another one of my favorite friendships (Erikson does convey sense of friendship, loyalty so well and in such different and creative ways – hats off man)
not really the biggest fan of Bauchelain & Korbal Broach either within Malazan or the novellas – there are much funnier, more amusing and less creepy (and as the story goes on silly) characters I enjoy reading.
@22 I think some of the elder gods began fading away for lack of worshippers as the newer gods came to play and the “last 3” were the last remaining who still had worshippers and decent levels of power. (clearly not for long)
Also (in case some consider this spoilerish): one eyed wolf god, one eyed Toc Younger, wolf god found Toc abandoned in a warren, now no wolf god but Toc is scratching eye – maybe more than one being is making use of that eye? :)
Kallor – talk about power hungry and good at it. I really like how in Malazan the gods are not these all powerful beings – they may be capable of great feates but they get injured, suffer and can be countercursed by a
meremortal.@@@@@ GoodOldSatan
i think the consensus on the malazanempire.com forum is that the CG has been chained at least twice, possibly three times.
it’s likely that he was chained soon after (soon in god terms meaning within a thousand years) he was brought down. furthermore, he was chained around one hundred years before the start of the series, and some characters that we’ve already met were present for it.
as to why he was chained, his rage is a poison, and so he was a threat to the entire established order. as to why he was chained more than once, you’ll have to RAFO.
Sorry I am so busy moving, but I am reading MoI again and this blog…about 10 min. a night before my eyes close ;-(
I’m in TtH now and I must say revisiting MoI is revelatory! Such foreshadowing of the coming books. SE, you are amazing. Things are becoming much clearer!
Not a fan of Broach and Bauchelain either. I have not read the novellas, but am not inclined to after this book.? They are just creepy to me too.
Thanks all….I am enjoying all the commentary but lack focus here to say anything substansive.
I found the reference to the Draconus, K’rul, and SoCN as “the last three Elder Gods” to be odd, too. And I believe a future chapter has a poem from Fisher that describes them as such as well. We’ll find out that there are definitely other Elder Gods, and in fact Draconus’ inclusion among them seems odd given what we find out about him later.
*quoted from Good old satan*
Was he hale prior to being pulled down? Who, exactly, did the pulling?
Given the quote Shalter provided @@.-@, …
…how does “Crippled” = “Chained?”
The 3 elder Gods are called “- last of the elder – ” but we’ve certainly
heard reference to (if not actulally seen) other elder. Where were
they?
I recall from somewhere – and I can’t remember if its from earlier or
later in the series – that the CG has been chained multiple times. Was
he chained prior to the events in prolgue II? Given the mere 120,903
years between his fall (3 years prior to the events in the prologue) and
the time of chapter 1, how many times has he been chained in the
interim? Or was he chained at some point prior to that? If the answers
involve extreme spoilage (especially if from tCG), please just tell me
to RAFO.
The suggested tweaking of Draconus’s sword removes its “finality?” I
wonder what the consequences of that might be? ….
I kind of liked Tool’s simple comment in Chapter 1 ; “Only decades?”
hmmmm … says a lot.
And I’m still not picking up on Toc’s eye scratching.
*end quote*
The crippled God appears to have been fit and hale prior to being pulled down, it was the pulling down that crippled him. More on the actual nature of the Crippled god is in the latter books of the series so defo RAFO
The chaining thing still confuses me after 5 re-reads of the series, so it’s not weird you’re confused. In this case I think that in being crippled he could no longer move back to his own realm, and thus was chained to the world he was pulled onto.
That is still a mystery to me too. I know that more elder gods will appear later in the series. But the history of them is quite fragmentary and the timeline is not at all clear.
Not very clear either, but will be made clearer but that’s RAFO so I won’t say here
That WILL become very clear in later books (and entire book is pretty much dedicated to it) so RAFO
On the eyescratching… there are some good hints in the toc POV in GoTM ;)
Think back to the bit in DG when the mad mage was hounding Kulp and company. He had completely lost touch with reality and was being abused by his warren(s) to the point that there was no control other than instinctively lashing out.
Now replace the mage with a god. One that was powerful enough (assumedly) that sorcerers within Kallor’s empire would risk yanking him from his own realm and bringing him to Wu to help fight Kallor. The Fall crippled him, and the madness that resulted (and the potential threat of such a situation) would necessitate some measure of control by the rest of the gods and ascendants of Wu. Hence, a Chaining to limit the danger that the insane god posed.
As time passed, some semblence of composure seems to have been regained by the CG, enough to manifest and direct his efforts. Now, consider yourself is such a state: wouldn’t you be awfully pissed at a) the world that yanked you into it and ripped you to pieces in the process, and b) the group of people responsible for chaining/limiting you afterwards (say, instead of helping him).
It’s a compelling enough scenario that one might even be able to write a fantasy series about it. ;)
For people who might not know, “Wu” is what the people at MalazanEmpire call the Malazan world. SE once mentioned it somewhat jokingly as what he called the world and it stuck.
I love when the little things in this series tie up, like the bridge that Gruntle waits at being specifically mentioned in GoTM.
I didn’t dislike the Novellas. Lee of Laughter End is great (and really funny), although the other two aren’t as good.
More intelligent commenting once I’ve finished the last 100 pages or so of tCG and gotten my copy of MoI back from the girlfriend.
Shalter@30: Thank you for the Wu explanation…..I really thought I was a better reader than to have missed the name of this world. LOL.
Totally my bad about calling the world Wu without explanation. Thanks for the heads-up shalter!
Hey all, thanks for you responses. They help (I think).
The reason I asked about who exactly pulled down the CG is that it seems to me it would take some major mojo to do it. Could someone like QB, with his not unsubstantial powers, perform such a feat? Because, if it takes more than that then these “sorcerers” were no mere hedge magicians even if they did “die” in the effort [you always have to be tentative in qualifying death around here].
ThinkingMalaz, re:
thanks, that works for (way too literal) me.
BTW, I’ve read through DoD (which I’m rereading now), but like lostinshadow, the time between books made (makes) it difficult for me to recall all the necessary connections.
Toster: if the last chaining was a mere 100 years or so ago (and I do recall a comment about Hood’s champion being present), that was after the founding of the Malazan Empire. Hmmmmm. Must not have worked too well if there’s an issue with him so soon.
Good Old Satan@34:I think that’s a decent bet that they needed some pretty good power to pull down TCG. Now, it does seem to have gotten out of their control, so maybe they used more power than they could handle or they had the power but not the knowledge.
Or, maybe they had a mysterious artifact that they didn’t really understand. As far as I recall, we don’t get much else in the way of details for the actual original pulling down–so speculation can run rampant.
Word of God from one of the interviews states that there have been multiple chainings, involving many different people. A large part of the confusion comes from the Unreliable Narrator nature of the descriptions – we know of them from snippets of historical documents, others know of them from being there originally, still others were present more recently.
It is stated in one of the later books that the three were not the last Elder gods per se, just the ones most interested in dealing with Kallor. A certain sea god springs to mind as saying he carefully steered clear of events as he had some idea of what might happen.
As for Kallor surviving as long as he has – later on we see some of the tricks he has used, and the limits he suffers under.
Did anyone else find the prologue scene with the Jagut children just chilling? It was really gut clenching to me wondering what the Imass would consider to be too cruel…
I agree that Kallor and his evil ways are almost unfathomable
MOI is definitely my favorite so far in the series..and I am in my little happy place that we have arrived at it!
SneakyVerin@37
I remember feeling disquieted about it the first time round but I actually felt it much worse re-reading the scene. There was so much to take in first time and with more knowledge now than before it makes it all the more distressing.
One thing I found curious about the Jaghut/Imass run-in in the prologue was the seeming ease with which the Jaghut mother was dispatched. In DG, we saw that the T’lan had to break all the bones of a Jaghut child and put them under a rock because killing them would take too much time. Here, they stab here with 6 flint spears and she’s dead. It seems like a quick stabbing is going to take a lot less time than breaking every bone and putting a large rock on the top.
Some reasons I can think of for the difference:
The Jaghut mother is obviously exhausted. She may have used up whatever special Jaghut powers allow them to be tough to kill in previous struggles.
Maybe this particular Jaghut just isn’t that powerful.
She chooses to not use any power. The text does say that she has not unveiled her warren. Perhaps a Jaghut with warren unveiled is particularly hard to kill–but their bones are easily broken? We do see that Raest is unconcerned with his bodily injuries as he battles the dragons.
Some other reason. Thoughts?
I liked this line from Lady Envy:
A nice impression of Laseen from the outside as it were.
Hey all,
Apologies to those for whom my comments on Nightchill and Crone were spoilers. I never thought they might be seen as such (sometimes I hem and haw over things but this wasn’t one of them)–just goes to show how differently we all read. I’m trying to think if I would have kept them back had I considered them spoilers and I’m not sure. Nightchill here doesn’t seem much of an impact so I probably would have kept it. Crone seems pretty straightforward to me–easier to miss more because of it being such a short, innocuous phrase rather than a cleverly withheld piece of info–fair warning to all–I’ll lean toward pointing out those sorts of things in here as that sort of close attention (rather than interpretation) is part of what I see as our purpose. But others may happily disagree.
Yes, multiple chainings. And we will get a slow drip drip on those events. Certainly you should have noticed by now (I think we’ve pointed out a few) the many, many references to chains throughout. Keep an eye out–it’s a running image thread all the way to the end.
Samar: love that scene w/ the necromancers and character to be named later
the mages that brought down the CG certainly had to have some power. I also imagine that it’s a pooled power in some rite of combination, making their individual power exponentially rather than simply geometrically greater. For instance, we’ll hear references to the Tiste Andii doing something of the same–a “full unveiling” (can’t recall but it’s possible we’ve already heard that phrase in GoTM)
Shalter–on the Jaghut mother–I always took it as her choosing not to fight. We’ve already heard in GoTM that they were no warlike and we’ll hear that again from other Jaghut later. Once her prime motive–the children–are moved to safety, I think she just surrenders. That’s my reading at least
“Shalter–on the Jaghut mother–I always took it as her choosing not to
fight. We’ve already heard in GoTM that they were no warlike and we’ll
hear that again from other Jaghut later. Once her prime motive–the
children–are moved to safety, I think she just surrenders. That’s my
reading at least”
That is exactly the way I see it too. Had she resisted, things would have gotten far more messy.
Bauchelain and Korbal Broach have always given me the same vibe as Croup and Vandemar from Neil Gaiman’s Neverwhere.
Does anyone else feel the same?
Thanks for the excellent posts, Amanda and Bill.
I have to say that Erikson does an excellent job of introducing history and relevant (I think) information in an exciting and impressive way, as opposed to a dry delivery of background facts. We get to find out some back story about K’rul, Draconus, Kallor, SoCN/Nightchill, Pran Chole and others we’ve met in previous books, and its not in a boring or unimaginative way at all.
Plus, Toc and Tool! And yes, I also enjoy this pairing. Lady Envy! When I first read the name, I laughed. Her interactions with Toc and Tool are fun, too.
I really liked DG, and I know the bar was set high for MoI, as a few of you have mentioned that you liked it better than DG. Already, it was off to a gripping start. As I have just finished it, I can say that you guys weren’t lying (I think I still like DG more, although MoI definitely rocked me near the end; I can’t wait until the reread gets there!).
ZetaStriker@1 – I can’t speak for others, but I appreciate getting multiple lengthy perspectives on these chapters, so I’m all for you keeping this kinda thing up in future reread posts. I wouldn’t mind other Malazan vets detailed impressions, as well. It helps me reflect on what I absorbed on my initial read, and what I completely missed!
I didn’t get that the “maggots” and the other references were the Great Ravens, until it was spelled out for me later on.
Fiddler@9 – yeah, I agree; those aren’t life-changing spoilers. I think you guys do a good job about protecting us first timers from major spoilers. I understand the minor thing will slip out here or there, and speaking for myself (a notorious anti-spoiler proponent) these little things haven’t take away from the reading experience at all.
Finding out beforehand that Nightchill = DoCN is minor and doesn’t take away from Erikson’s storytelling. Now, if someone were to tell me beforehand that (hypothetically speaking here) Nightchill is secretly Toc’s and Ganoes’ mother and that they are destined to take their place as her Assassin and Knight, respectively, in the House of Cold or something, then that would suck!
Karsa@17, Shalter@19, Kah-Thurak@21 and others re: Kallor – I’m sure this is cleared up later, but my impression of Kallor was that he was a long lived human like we’ve seen mages can be (wasn’t Tattersail like 300 years old, or something?). He was incredibly powerful, so maybe he was mortal yet centuries or eons old.
Tek@26 – Yeah, I’m not a fan of Broach and Bauchelain, either. As of now, I have little desire to read the novellas. Maybe things will change once I’ve read all of the regular Malazn novels.
Thomstel@29 and shalter@30 – Thanks for the name of the world! That was starting to bug me, and we didn’t have one major protagonist here, so I couldn’t even call it something like Randland, either. And like Tek, I would have been kinda hard on myself if I had missed that in the text.
shalter@39 – re: the easy killing of the Jaghut mother. I had the same issue. Actually, reading this brought up a few questions about the Jaghuts and the T’lan Imass (and about Icarium, but that’s kinda long so I think I’ll do that in a separate post) and their millennia long conflict. I also thought that maybe not unveiling the warren had something to do with it. I take it this is never adequately addressed in the text?
billcap@41 – I appreciate the clarification re: the minor (to me, anyway) spoilers. Me personally, that wasn’t that major of a big deal (of course, I’m speaking with the benefit of hindsight as I had already gotten to those points in the book by the time I read this post). I do appreciate that you are consciously trying to be careful about what you put out there; I’m sure its not easy to recall what exactly the reader is supposed to know and not know at this point.
Definitely, I support that you should point out things that you believe an attentive reader would pick up on. Btw, if you did decipher that SoCN = Nightchill and the Great Ravens bit on your first read, that is truly impressive!
Bill:
I didn’t consider your revelations about Nightchill and the Ravens to be spoilers….as you said, they were one sentence mentions and might have been missed. I did pick up on Nightchill being the DotCN my first time through, but I completely missed where the Ravens came from until you said it (and I’m in TtH). It’s not important, plot-wise, but it is cool, and it gives us perspective about how old they are. Thanks for pointing that out.
Kimaniak: Glad you liked MoI. You are well and truly hooked now. ;-)
The begining of the blog-post it warns that there might be Major Spoilers :
So if I wanted to say some big spoiler like :
K***** ***** *********** ** *** *** ** *** ****.
See I just totally spoiled the book for you. I am really sorry about that But it was all according to the rules posted in the begining of the article. So any newbie will walk in and expect that spoilers are expected because that’s what the blurb thing said. And then someone may get burn and people will jump on the newbie.
My point is. Why are the rules at the begining different from those that the posters keep? (It’s rhetorical, someone should update that quote up there so new member are not confused or posters should not complain about being spoiled. We are warned)
Ok, another series of related questions for Malazan vets (who don’t mind helping a first timer out) that I alluded to in my post@44:
So, after immediately finishing DG and going straight into the T’Lan Imass related events in MoI, I remember a question that came to mind immediately after the prologue, that I had planned to ask the group (once the reread got here) if events in MoI didn’t address it; which they didn’t. (I don’t think this question itself is too spoilery regarding what does/not happen in MoI, as the Dramatis Personae for MoI doesn’t mention Icarium, so the reader at this point would know that Icarium isn’t in this book).
Icarium is a Jaghut (half Jhag son of Gothos, if I remember correctly), right? So why aren’t the T’lan Imass pragmatically/ruthlessly pursuing Icarium and Mappo? Is it linked to what Icarium’s other half-parentage is (I don’t recall if we found that out yet)? I think his massive destructive potential would make him a larger target, not a target that they would actively avoid. It doesn’t seem like the T’lan Imass can be bargained with or reasoned with when it comes to their quarry, so I doubt Mappo or the 7 Guardians of the 7 Cities (or whatever they were called) had persuaded the T’lan Imass to leave Icarium alone. Was this explained in DG and I missed it? Is this ever addressed in the series?
If this is a major RAFO, then cool; I’m all for the non-spoilery, “wait and see” responses. But, once you read in the prologue that the T’lan Imass were tracking a mother and her children and never accepted bargains to save even little kids, it makes you (okay, me) wonder about Icarium’s survival and the fact that tens of thousands of T’lan Imass leave him alone for tens of centuries; including the actions of the First Bonecaster (I think the name is Olar Ethil) who was near Mappo and Icarium while protecting the real gate from the Soletaken and D’ivers in the end of DG.
So, are these questions that the reader should be asking at this point? Did we get the answers and I’m completely blocking it out? Or is this a RAFO, and I should just keep reading and enjoy? And shut my “mouth.” :-)
I’m in the first chapter of HoC (I have way too many new questions already, but I think those will be addressed as I keep reading) and maybe Erikson addresses it in this novel; I don’t know.
Anyway, just curious…
Oh, and Tek@45 – Yes, I am most definitely hooked!
@tonka:
Well said.
That being said, there are spoilers and then there are real spoilers. It’s one thing to go and say that Fiddler is going to join the 14th Army and will be instrumental in creating that army’s backbone. That isn’t hurting the reading experience at all, and it gives oldtimers more room for discussion, and isn’t that what this reread is all about?
It’s another thing if I would say that heheyouwonderedwhatisheredidn’t you? is going to shock us all by suddenly going mental on his comrades and starts stabbing them in the back and killing them all. I would never tell such stuff, as Tek can confirm, because I left out stuff (in RG for example) for her to read on her own in our talks.
(this was a made up example, btw)
But if we aren’t even allowed to talk about Nightchill being Sister of Cold Nights (for example), then I proclaim real discussion here to be dead as we speak, except for everybody pointing out which scenes we like most in a chapter, or posting which are our favourite quotes from the next chapter (which is a sign in itself, I guess).
I’m not trying to be mean here to new readers, but this reread has a pace that is slow enough to read on for everybody. I have a feeling some oldtimers are posting less because of this spoiler thing that is in the header and discouraged in discussion, and as I said in my earlier post, this book we are rereading now is 10 years old…
To me it seems like being in a bar, where you can buy a beer when you are 21, but everybody in there is saying that you cannot buy a beer, because there are a few 20 year olds in the bar… ;-)
KiManiak @@@@@ 47:
As far as I recall (and I’m sure I’ve forgotten a lot!), that’s never outright explained. Possibly they learnt the hard way that messing with Icarium is a very bad plan. There’s also something interesting we learn in HoC, IIRC. But since the Tor upgrade hasn’t made spoilers work any better for me I’ll leave someone else to mention it. :)
The first time I started MoI I was actually disappointed to be leaving 7 Cities and going back to Genabackis! After DG I just wanted to know what happened there in the aftermath of the Chain of Dogs and everything. Forgetting how disappointed I had been with the setting change after GotM. There’s no pleasing me sometimes. :p
Of course, I was soon delighted by the return to familiar places and characters. Toc’s back! That made me so happy. I’d hoped he would be back after his rather mysterious disappearance in GotM. But not knowing SE’s style well yet I didn’t know if he would just kill an interesting character off like that. Very glad he didn’t!
And a great introduction for Gruntle. Plenty of great new characters in this book. And lots of funny moments but even after the whole series I think it might still be a line of Gruntle’s that made me laugh the hardest. :D I haven’t read the Bauchelain and Korbal Broach novellas yet either, although I like (hmm, perhaps not really the right word!) them here. I think the first 3 will be out in a paperback omnibus in the UK later this year, so I will probably give them a go then.
I think this book might have been the one that first gave me the feeling that I had a handle on what was going on, beyond the immediate plot. There are so many familiar things and little connections you can make early on that I actually felt fairly confident and much less lost than usual starting out. It didn’t last long, of course, but it was nice while it did. :p
On spoilers,
I’m not sure the rules are different. I’m trying to keep major ones out of the summaries as I think they’ll serve newbies well on their own–heck, I’m thinking I’ll be going back and using the summaries on this reread and future ones. Personally, I’ve been careful about major spoilers in the summary, less so but somewhat (but less so as we move on as I’ll talk about later) in my commentary, but as I think I’ve mentioned, don’t feel the need or desire to police them in the comments–it’s been buyer beware all along. I think people will just fall naturally into their own personal comfort level with what they reveal. But anyone reading commentary should be well aware that someone’s comfort level may be saying just who that was who stabbed everyone in the back and killed them all, and no, that poster won’t be disciplined, shunned, crucified on the Aren Way, or tied to a chair and made to listen to a recording of William Shatner Singing the Best of Pust and Kruppe.
My own guess, and personal inclination, will be that there will be more and more spoilers (in my commentary, as well as comments) as we move further in. One because pace seems to mean people will be done with the series by the time we’re into the 4th or 5th book (or sooner). Two, because we (or at least I) will start to be looking forwards and backwards at some of the huge series arcs once we’ve gotten the major arcs and characters all introduced (hard to believe that hasn’t happened yet more than a thousand pages in, huh?). Some of that will be absolutely starting with this book from my perspective. Three, entropy and the inevitable move toward chaos.
KiManiak @47:
My impression is that the Imass didn’t care much about Icarium because he was only half Jaghut.
They didn’t go after the Jaghut because they were too powerful (otherwise they would have hunted other powerful beings as well). They hunted the Jaghut because every once in a while, some Jaghut would be a Tyrant and would try to enslave everyone around.
I guess that the Tyrant trait didn’t manifest in part-Jaghut individuals, so there was no reason for the Imass to worry about those.
on Icarium and the Imass, I actually don’t recall offhand if we hear a specific reason or a specific meeting. I’m on yet another reread of the series so I’ll keep an eye out for it. If I had to hazard a guess:
a) half-breed is quite different–no concern about a Tyrant I’m thinking
b) even the Imass don’t want to wake Icarium to anger–it’s like waking the Midgard Serpent.
Well, I just wrote a really long response to Tonka that seems to have been lost @@@@@ posting. Too bad, ’cause it had a lot of great points that I can’t remember right now ;-}
So, here’s the gist … I see both sides … lets see if TOR can provide a subthread … I don’t mind spoilers that don’t address tCG and I assume that most don’t mind spoilers as far as they have read … White text is considerate and works form me … It is possible to be clear to people who have read farther, yet obtuse to newbees (and, frankly, I enjoy the challenge). … that’s about it.
Also, if the second to last letter in the third word you have starred out is a “c”, then you have destroyed this, if not all other Malazan books for me. If the second letter of the second word is not an “i” then I may be wrong.
{edit fixed a typo}
re spoilers:Well, the Crone wasn’t really a spoiler. It’s pretty much spelled out. The Nightchill/Sister of Cold Nights reveal is pretty minor.
It is the re-read of the fallen, not the first time read of the fallen. All in all, I think we do a pretty good job of balancing things out.
Anyone can start a spoiler thread in the new forums if they really want to talk about big spoilers–like I did with TCG. Or, there is always white-out.
As G.O.S. said, it’s kind of fun giving hints and being obtuse.
KiManiak @47:
Another theory of why they wouldn’t go after Icarium in particular is that they would almost certainly lose and put all creation at risk.
just a thought! :)
tonka@46 – I see your point. Any Malazan vet could be visiting this site for the first time, innocently compare something from the prologue of MoI with some major occurrence in TCG (or even DoD), and they would rightfully expect there to be no issue. I hope this doesn’t happen, but by reading the comments, I admit that I open myself up to that possibility. It’s my responsibility to wrench my eyes away, in those rare occasions.
fiddler@48 – I also agree that there are (minor) spoilers and then there are (major) spoilers. I joined this group somewhat late, and to my understanding the first few – several posts were folks finding a comfort zone on what could/would/should be discussed in the comments, to allow for the potential newbies and first timers. I appreciate that you guys have made a concerted effort to limit the “world destroying” spoilers. It allowed me to catch up in my own read while also being able to refer to the reread. I’ve passed the reread (but haven’t finished the series) and reading the rereads now help me to process/digest what I’ve recently read.
Having said that, this is one of (as of today) 3 reread groups that I’m a part of, and in 2 of them I’ve read every book in the series that has been published to date and understand the desire to discuss a subject/topic that the poster introduced while contrasting it with something that happens pages or even books later. It just leads to a better discussion, and folks don’t feel as if they have to censor themselves. If that’s what this group chooses to do, I understand. I’ll just stick to the summaries/posts and bust my ass to finish all the novels, before rejoining you all to add my take on things.
However, I do think Fiddler@48 makes a good distinction between talking about person X joining the 14th and giving it backbone (and if you paid attention to the end of DG, then its not that much of a spoiler, in my opinion), or discussing Nightchill = SoCN, or the Great Ravens; all of that, versus, CommenterX posting something like “the key to the whole series was realizing that The Crippled God was actually Bela and Burn was really Aria Stark.”
I think that if you’re a fan of this series and a first timer, then once you’ve caught up to the reread you’re going to keep on reading as quickly and as much as you can. To borrow and adapt Fiddler@48’s analogy, I’m all for you 21+ year-olds enjoying a nice glass (or two) of single malt at this bar, even if I’ve just turned 21 and am only sophisticated enough to enjoy beer and the cheap stuff at this point :-)
Billcap@51 re: spoilers – Yeah, I say bring on the changes to your commentary as we get nearer those series wide arcs and you want to start looking forwards and backwards. My only request would be that you just let us know when you shift (which I’m thinking you would do, anyway) into discussing the series wide arcs in more detail and with more analysis that includes future-book-related information. If you guys feel constrained and aren’t having fun doing this, then what’s the point? If the reader has been warned this is coming, then its reader beware!
Anyway, just my 2 cents.
I think that the way spoilers have been handled in this re-read so far is the right way to continue. This keeps the discussion focussed on the events that are actually part of the current chapters. Links to other books can be made when these books are beeing re-read. It also keeps us from discussing the same topics other and other again as it often happens in the WoT re-read…
Daydreamer@49 – Thanks; I’m in HoC now and am looking forward to it (and to some names I can recognize; sheesh!)
Amir@52 & Billcap@53 – So, apparently they’re not worried about the biracial kids, hmm? :-) I admit, I’m curious about the story of Icarium’s parents, now. I don’t recall if the text tells us that Icarium is half human, so I’m allowing my imagination to run. It’d be funny and funny/weird if he was half Tellan Imass, half Jaghut…
Oh, and yeah, I could see not wanting to wake up Icarium’s anger. I just didn’t think that was reason enough for the T’lan Imass to leave him be; but then again, I’m still a Malazan first timer so I freely admit that my understanding of the rules of this universe are somewhat limited…
Karsa@56 – The end of all creation is a pretty good reason to leave someone alone. I’m still somewhat intrigued that he has that much potential power and can be disabled with a blow to the head. But, I guess Erikson is consistent; he shows us that even an elder god could potentially be killed by an arrow around a battlefield (as Kallor suggests to SotCN in the prologue). I guess its similar to with the mama Jaghut in the prologue: maybe if the character is ready for it/has accessed their warrens and they choose to resist, they can. But anyone is susceptible to a sneak attack…
Thanks for the responses, Malazan vets.
I remember when MOI came in the mail-I had been buying these on line as used books, as I came across them. Hmmm, when I started to read, I was sure that I had them out of contex! ( I hadn’t gotten the hang of SE ‘s style yet or really understood what the heck I was reading (thank the gods for this reread).
I now see that the prolog as a great back story and it cleared up so many loose ends, but I missed out on SoCN being Nightchill.
Then there is Kallor…what a peach, so we find out he’s been cursed by the Elder gods to an immortal life, so he is bound to be heard from throughout this series. Don’t think he will redeem himself, as Brood had commented “that he never learns”. Wonder how they hooked up?
Happy to see Toc has been tossed out to play again; I liked him and had felt short-changed when we lost him so early.
Billcap@@@@@ 51:
Say, where can I get a recording of Shatner sing the best of Pust and Kruppe??? lol
Ki at 59 – yes, we later learn about Icarium’s particular mix – but I’m not going to tell you…. Rob
I wonder if the T’lan Imass don’t go after Icarium as a result of the nature of his curse. We know already (and will be told explicitly later on) that they don’t shy away from challenges, but even with his Jaghut blood, Icarium is unlikely to pose a threat as a potential tyrant. Not much chance of effectual tyranny in a tyrant who can barely remember his name any time he hits his head on a doorpost!
I agree with that King Lear. for the T’lan Imass Icarium is not interesting for 2 main reasons 1) Icarium’s curse which pretty much precluding him ever becoming a Tyrant 2) They might well destroy themselves completely if they try. Other reasons might lie in the fact that there are other parties involved that the T’lan Imass don’t want to get involved yet (Azath and Nameless ones to name two)
Possible minor spoiler (it comes up very soon in MoI):
Regarding the six spears killing the Jaghut mother so quickly: Bonecasters are capable of investing weapons to be unbreakable, slice through wards,etc. I suspect they could deal with any “passive” durability or toughness, so unless a Jaghut was actively resisting that would be it. It does seem to be a trend in the Malazan books that characters are remarkable fragile if caught by surprise or simply not trying to defend themselves.
I would say that it is Icarium’s half bloodedness that keeps the T’lan from him. They don’t seem to care much about safety issues in most circumstances.
RobM2@61 – Thanks; I appreciate your restraint. :-)
My comments @59 were me just “thinking” out loud; no way I want to know any of that before Erikson tells me in his (I’m sure) incredible, timely way.
KiManiak @47:
My view is that even the Imass know by now not to mess with Icarium. Recall in DG the city that had been wiped out by Icarium? It was said there that he killed thousands of Imass. Think about what that must mean, thousands of Imass! There is no force in the Malazan world capable of standing against Icarium in a berserker rage (not even an Azath, as we learned in DG). I don’t think the T’lan Imass want to start a war against Icarium when he poses no threat to them at all in his peaceable cuddly mode.
It’s funny, before the reread I remembered the Imass largely as good guys and the Jaghut as baddies (maybe based on Tool and Raest, I guess) but reading this prologue after DG, I feel rather the opposite.
My reaction to Kallor in the prologue: And I thought Kellanved was insane! He’s a teddy bear compared to Kallor!!
@Amanda:
That is a singularly nasty-toned written piece of history though! It seems as if Tallobant doesn’t have that much love for the Empire.
I already like Gruntle, Harllo and Stonny.
Yay for the return of Toc!! And stupid question, but did I infer correctly that Toc was possessed by Togg or did Togg just wake him and toss him out of which ever warren he was in?
I love Lady Envy. Her description of Laseen as a repressed woman just made fall over laughing. Lady Envy is hilarious, but I do wonder what is behind the suave mask.
Shalter @39: I thought that was because the Imass were more powerful in their warren before T’Lan? Was that a wrong assumption?
Oh I forgot to ask: How does Kallor’s naming Draconus of Tiam’s Kin relate to Rake being of her kin? Is that just because he bears Dragnipur or is there truly a blood tie? That isn’t possible is it, as Rake’s a Tiste Andii?
@Mieneke:
I forgot if you are a first reader or not, but I’ll put it in general. I don’t consider this to be a spoiler.
Some Tiste Andii have drunk from Tiam’s blood, thereby becoming Soletaken Dragons with the ability to veer into a dragon. We have already seen Rake and his 5 lieutenants do this in GotM. That is what is meant here.
As for Draconus, I’m not sure if he is an Eleint Dragon (the Eleint are original ‘pure’ Dragons), but I think so. In any case, he’s an Elder God and the name he has suggests he has a dragon form. On the other hand, the name could refer to Draco of Athens too (the phrase Draconian Law comes from there). I’m sure you’re familiar with that one. :)
Probably both are applicable where Draconus is concerned. Another thing I appreciate in Erikson’s writing. :D
The Dragon veering ability is passed on to offspring, BTW. So Rake’s children would have it, and so would Draconus’ children, of which Lady Envy is one.
Mieneke@68 – re: Toc and Togg – I don’t think at this point that were supposed to infer that Toc has been possessed (or, at least I didn’t). We get the story told in 3rd person re: Toc, and it seems that he’s not viewing things from the perspective of Togg. He thinks about his role in the Malazan army, his opinions of Lorn, his allegiance to One-arm’s host (how he went from being a Claw spy to being Dujek’s scout), and his time in the warren, “Where I …lingered. I think.” So, it appears that we’ve got the POV of Toc the Younger, only. But, we can always infer that there may be more going on…
Fiddler@70 – Now that is some cool background information! Since we’ve discussed what is and isn’t a spoiler on this thread, what is essentially information that contributes to series wide arcs or issues, and what information contributes to and assists in facilitating cool discussions, let me just say that I found the info to be pretty nice background and supportative (ok, apparently that’s not a real word) info that shouldn’t really spoil anyone whose made it this far in the books.
In this book alone, Erikson provides a lot of background, clarification and historical information in the form of dialogue and exposition. I’m assuming we find these tidbits out about the Tiste Andii, Draconus, Rake and the Soletaken in bits of dialogue and exposition throughout the series; and probably not spelled out so clearly for those reading it for the first time.
Actually, this raises quite a few questions that I’m looking forward to the series addressing. Let’s see… so, we know that in GotM, Raest calls Silanah an Eleint, true blood of Tiam (it’s also mentioned by Rake in GotM that if he were to do something wrong or bad, that Silanah would be one of his potential challengers). Also, at least 5 Tiste Andii are Dragon Soletaken. I’m looking forward to finding out more about the relationship between Silanah and the Tiste Andii (Did she let the Tiste Andii drink her blood? Are they her protector, or is she theirs? What is her special relationship with Rake?).
The name Draconus does indeed imply something… dragon-like. I look forward to seeing if he has a dragon form. And, being a dragon Soletaken can be passed on to offspring? So, now questions arise about Lady Envy (and Lady (?) Spite, I guess).
And, can any Soletaken ability be passed along to their offspring? Come to think of it, are Soletaken abilities derived from the blood of whatever animal/creature the person veers into? How does that differ from D’ivers?
Did Olar Ethil (the first Soletaken, I believe I read somewhere) discover all this when she was the first to drink from the blood of a dragon? Does one have to slay the dragon, or could the blood be given freely, say as a reward for helping the dragon? What did Olar Ethil do? Will Erikson depict this for us in the form of story, or only hint at it via dialogue or exposition?
As for the passing down of the soletaken trait, this makes me have questions about Topper. He’s half Tiste Andii, right? Who was his parent? Maybe they have/had soletaken abilities? Could it have been one of the dragon soletaken? This could potentially make Topper even more dangerous as Master of the Claw (not too subtle or stealthy, though).
(Again, I’m just spitballing, or “thinking” out loud; please, please, please don’t provide me with any answers to these questions).
So, yeah, I don’t consider this to be a “spoiler” in the damaging sense of the word. I think this is quality supporting information that will help to focus and inform the first-timer’s reading experience (or, at least, this first-timer’s experience).
Assuming that this tidbit wasn’t the crux of the plot of a future book, of course :-) (And based upon my opinion of Fiddler, I’m sure its not even close to important information from a future book)
Anyway, thanks. My curiosity is piqued even more, now.
To be clear, I’m not overly concerned about spoilers. I’m well ahead of where we are in the series. I only pointed it out because Bill made them sound obvious and I didn’t notice them as such until either later in the book or upon re-read. Anyway I have no problem with reveals, as they are forewarned.
@KiManiak @71 – since you’ve asked for your questions not to be answered yet I doubt anyone will. But they are answered so they are definitely inthe realm of RAFO.
Toc and Envy et al was one of my favourite storylines of this book. MoI is the one that clinched it for me in terms of series greatness.
Kimaniak@71:
I totally agree with your assessment of Fiddlers’ info. He has really helped me understand some series wide mysteries that has enhanced my read immensely, while not spoiling those “aha” moments.
Thank you Fiddler and Shalter and Tait and Hetan, etc. (Sorry if I’ve left someone out ;-/ )
djk1978@72 – I appreciate the assurances that went along with the RAFO. I’m eagerly awaiting the parts in the series when those questions and many of my others get answered.
Also, I like the Toc and Envy storyline as well. It’s in the top 3 of my favorites for this book.
Re Spoilers
I can only speak for myself on this issue but as a re-reader, the further into the series we go, the harder it is to post without posting any level of spoiler information. This week’s “Nightchill = Sister of Cold Nights” being a prime example. I guess I was a little bit surprised that some seem to take that as such a “spoiler”. I’m glad that Bill posted it before I did as I would have most likely let that cat out of the bag myself, not because I would have wanted to post a spoiler, but because I actually always think of “Sister of Cold Nights” as Nightchill. So I would have most likely posted a comment and named her as Nightchill. Then I would have been the “bad guy” for posting a spoiler.
The way I define “spoiler” is something that a first time reader who has read up to this point would have no way of knowing. Neither of Bill’s comments (the Ravens or Nightchill) met this standard as I felt that the connection to both could have been made at this point. I myself felt on my first read that the similarity in names SoCN & Nightchill was a probable match and wondered if they were the same person. I specifically remember thinking, wow, “Nightchill was not just a mage but an Elder God?” and made the connection between Kallor’s curse and her death in Pale.
It is nearing the point that, as a re-reader, I now have to evalutate whether or not what I wish to say has enough “value” to either run the risk of a minor spoiler, or is worth the extra work involved to review it from multiple angles to make sure there is nothing in it that can be read as possible “spoiler” information.
Everyone in this group has done an excellent job of trying to avoid major spoilers but if we are already starting to nitpick minor spoilers at the beginning of book 3, is there any point in me (as a person who has re-read these books numerous times) even running the risk of trying to post anything in the future?
Either this is a re-read, or it is not. As a re-reader, it is only satisfying for so long to sit back and say “pay attention to that” so many times before you want to actually discuss something. I now find that I simply don’t discuss things as they could be considered spoilers to some and thus, I just don’t mention it. This week is a great example. I think it would have been worth mentioning SE’s circling back around and showing us Kallor’s curse of Nightchill two books after seeing the fullfillment of that curse by her her being dismembered by deamons in GotM. However, since this is considered a spoiler, that was off limits. These “topics” are becomming more and more numerous as we move further into the series.
I don’t know what the answer is, I only know that I find myself posting less and less so as not to risk posting something that will “spoil” someone else’s experience.
Mieneke@69:Kallor’s naming Draconus as Tiam’s ‘kin’ is a very interesting choice of words to me. As we have seen, SE is pretty careful with his word selection. So, to me kin suggests a related to rather than descended from relationship.
As others mentioned, Rake and others of the Tiste Andii drank from the blood of Tiam at some point. This is what gives them their soletaken form. Silanah is a pure blood Eleint–she is a dragon, not another species that shifts into the dragon form.
It’s also interesting that when the three elder gods address each other it as Brother and Sister. Now, whether this is a literal brother/sister relationship or a more figurative one, we don’t quite know here.
All of this combines to suggest very complicated relationships among the Elder Gods.
Robin@75:I would tend to agree with your and Bill’s thoughts that as we get deeper into the books, we should begin to show how things interlock. Your example of how The SoCN/Nightchill curse from Kallor takes us back to add depth to GotM is an excellent example.
The re-read is proceding at a stately enough pace that first time readers are tending (from their comments) to quickly outpace the reread and then circle back.
Of course, we certainly shouldn’t give away major spoilers, but an increasing frankness is certainly warranted.
Mieneke@68:
The T’lan Imass use the Tellan warren quite well. However, their usage is somewhat ‘frozen’. They no longer grow in their abilities–they are undead.
Note how T’lan relates to Tellan and how other names with ‘ relate to the non-‘ form.
@Fidd, KiManiak, and Shalter: Thanks for the reactions.
@Fidd: I’m a first and a half time reader, since I’ve read book 1-4 over five years ago and only remember snatches of them. I’m still dubbing over whether to just read on and finish the series and then circle back to where we are with the reread, especially since I won The Crippled God from a contest run by the ABC (you’ll probably know them lol). But then again, I also need/want to read other books for my blog so… I really have to think about it!
@Shalter: Ah, I guess that’s why I thought they were less powerful. I’ve always been taught that to stagnate is to decline, since you’ll be outstripped by those who continue to develop.
@59
“But, I guess Erikson is consistent; he shows us that even an elder god
could potentially be killed by an arrow around a battlefield (as Kallor
suggests to SotCN in the prologue).”
Good grief, did anyone else notice this little titbit.
And people say SE pulls things out of thin air.
I’m all for more in depth discussion here! Please don’t go away Robin!
As you say, we are into these books hip deep now. Connections to past books exist, as well as foreshadowing of future events. Things like Fiddler pointed out, or your discussion of Nightchill, the nature of dragons, and the relationship of Elder gods really enhance understanding. Even on a first read, these are not necessarily obvious, but are illuminating! Keep it up!
This is a REread!!! And newbies…..read ahead!! How can you not??
Honestly I can’t see how much longer the absolutely no big spoiler policy is going to hold up, especially considering that it is self-policed rather than something we had been warned about from the very beginning.
by the time we’re onto book 4, there really will be no point in discussing anythings without alluding how it echoes from the older books and into the newer books.
after all one of the most amazing aspects of this series is how well planned it obviously is and part of its joy is how well it all works together.
so my guess is quite frankly that one or two of the vets will start more in depth discussion and everyone else will jump in and well, the slower newbies have the choice of reading faster or not reading the comments.
I think the only reason many of us have been managing to hold back so far is because honestly IMHO the first 3 books are all essentially a long prologue – it’s really just setting up the story SE wants to tell. Once we get into the actual story – well… hard to contain the enthusasm for all the details.
and re a comment above … I actually managed to infer something was up with Toc and the Wolf God on the first reading – the scratching the single eye thing seemed really obvious to me and I have to gloat because that is one of the very few things I managed to work out for myself on the very first read.
Mieneke@79 – congrats on winning the book… personally I would advise reading ahead and circling back (that’s what I’ve done) since this is such a dense series reading it the 2nd time round is often more fun than the first time
@@@@@ 81. Tektonica
I’m not going anywhere. I just feel that, since this is a re-read, we need to evaluate the “value” of allowing some of these more minor spoilers. I suspect that I am probably not the only re-reader who has cut way back on posting due to the fact that it is getting hard to discuss things. To use the Nightchill example that I referenced above. What is the value of withholding the fact that SoCN is Nightchill until it is explicitly revealed in the book, compared to the value of showing the newbies how SE gave us Nightchill’s death in GotM and then circled around and showed us Kallor’s curse at the beginning of book 3?
A huge part of any re-read, and even more so in this series, is these links. The circling around, and revisiting of things. For me, these things are as big a part of these books as the story itself. If we cannot discuss these things, then I feel that we not only limit the enjoyment for the re-readers, but for the newbies as well.
I frequently want to post something and tell myself, no wait until “X” is made clearer so you don’t post a spoiler. By the time “X” is clearly revealed, it is usually either awkward to go back and revisit the point I would have liked to have made, or it will take so much explanation as to what past scene I am trying to reference, that it simply isn’t worth it, so I don’t.
Robin, Lost: I totally agree….We don’t want to lose the long time readers and all they have to offer! This is a great discussion format.
I say…Let’s go for it! I love to hear about the insights and connections you all have made in your many rereads! It is indeed what makes these books so dense and intriguing!
I was a newbie when this started. I found it completely impossible to read at the reread pace and I knew it was a REread, so I hurried up. I imagine most of the newbies on here did too. It’s just too good to put down. And….Amanda has stated she doesn’t care about spoilers.
Show of hands….How many of the 1st time readers are ahead of the reread now?
I think it is absolutely ok to discuss Kallor’s curse on Nightchill here… it is a connection to a book allready covered in the re-read. Anyway I dont see how such things could “spoil” a book for someone. This not a major plot development in this or a following book so it dosnt give anything away. I even think, that I made the connection between Nightchill and the Sister of Cold Nights upon my first read of the books (though I cannot be sure).
Another thing entirly would be to discuss who dies at the end of which future book. Such things have been avoided before and I think we should continue that way.
re: spoilers:
Personally, I very much like the current “no major spoilers” approach that we have, and I like even more the fact that it is self imposed.
One of the very nice things in the Malazan world are the numerous “whoa” moments (think: Keanu Reeves). Not only would I not want to spoil such moments to new readers, it’s actually more fun for me to reexperience the “whoa” through their eyes.
Just consider the possibility that in the middle of DG we would have had a discussion about Coltaine’s upcoming death near the gates of Aren. Think how much less of an emotional impact would there have been in Amanda’s reaction to the end of the book. I don’t think any of us would have like that.
Of course, as we progress in the reread it will be more and more difficult not to discuss some things that impact future books. It’s only natural. But I think we’ll also be missing out a lot if we don’t censure ourselves just a bit for the big revelations and plot points to come.
So, I vote along some of the previous posters: Please let’s not reveal any big plot points ahead of time, and not worry too much about world building and general theme discussions that enrich the blog, even if not yet discovered by the first time reader.
And regarding the two “spoilers” for this week’s post:
I don’t have a problem with revealing that Nightchill=SoCN. I think that not all first time readers would have made the connection easily (I certainly didn’t make the connection until many books later and kicked myself for missing it). However, this revelation spoils absolutely nothing about this book or any of the next ones. It’s just one of those “whoa” moments that enrich the Malazan world. I would have liked to see some hints pointing Amanda there, just to see her reaction when she figures this out, but this doesn’t seem an important item.
Regarding the Great Ravens: I doubt many people would have figured this one out from just the prologue, BUT, this particular bit of info is spelled out directly for the reader in one of the coming chapters (chapter 2 or 3). So no big reveal/spoiler there. And like the Nightchill issue, it spoils nothing.
Hey folks! Since we’re actively assessing the desire of the group re:spoilers, I’ll chip in again.
I know we’ve spent a lot of time this thread on spoilers, mostly due to a comment one reader made about the questionable obviousness of the statement that SoCN = Nightchill and that the Great Ravens evolved from the maggots that grew out of the Crippled God’s flesh (which is interesting because the djk1978has already said at their post @72 they aren’t overly concerned about spoilers; they were just making an observation).
I’m not aware of anyone here (on this thread, at least) who’s said absolutely no minor spoilers. I basically think we’re all agreeing in the “tones” of disagreement (yeah, I got this term from some TV shrink or something) re: the minor spoilers. SoCN = Nightchill. The ending of this book is in no way spoiled. We find this out in a few chapters, along with a whole bunch of other background and supporting information.
(Any newby who’s been quietly following the reread and comments, has only gotten to this point and has been reluctant to comment: trust me. I was in your shoes a few weeks ago. These 2 little reveals here does absolutely nothing to lessen the book IMHO. I’d argue that when you get to the point where this is mentioned in the book, you won’t even think this is the most important tidbit of info in that chapter.)
As far as major spoilers go: Well, I’m obviously biased but I’d prefer we not go there just yet, like Kah-thurak@75 and Amir@76 and others have mentioned. As I mentioned in my post @71, I appreciate (and strongly encourage) any knowledge that helps support or enhance the reading experience, like Fiddlers@70. I’m all for Bill (or any of you) noticing and discussing items that contribute to series wide arcs or themes, or to mention to file away names, or to make note of what may be considered minor things or throwaway lines.
I’d really rather not have (what I consider to be) major spoilers like “this is relevant because this is exactly how Major Character X dies 2 books from now,” or the like. However, if this is how the group of Malazan vets chooses to go; fine. Let’s spell it out now/soon, so that I know to stop reading the comments until I finish the series (which hopefully will be soon enough to comment once we get to HoC; I’ve got a lot to say about that book and I’m only 4 chapters in).
And to tonka@46’s point, I agree that I otherwise run the risk of a “non-regular” Malazan vet checking in and introducing a comment that’s major spoilery. I enjoy reading everyone’s comments/observations; it’s a risk I’m willing to take.
For all those curious about Icarium’s other lineage, it becomes apparent in an AWESOME scene in Reaper’s Gale. So just keep reading and you’ll find out.
I for one am glad Bill mentioned the Nightchill = DoCN because I completely missed that even on my second read, and I’m glad someone was bright enough to point it out. It will give me a better understanding of what is going on with a later character in this book. And I don’t think that is too much of a spoiler. So thanks Bill for filling me in and making me feel less clueless!
I believe the ravens’ origins are spelled out in a direct way for all to see a bit later in this book. I did miss the maggots reference my first time reading this. But I remember reading that and thinking, “wow, that’s cool!” ha, I’m so articulate ;-)
Again, since I seem to have started this. I am not against spoilering. The only thing that struck me with the whole SoCN one was how Amanda had noted in her review that she didn’t recognize the name or know who it was, and Bill pointed out that it was Nightchill as if it was obvious. It just struck me as a big difference between the two reviewers. In that way I don’t know if Bill even noticed that it was a spoiler. And it isn’t even really that because it doesn’t make a bit of difference to the story knowing that this early. So anyway I apologize for re-opening the can of worms. I’m aware of the warnings and I think if anything, for useful discussion, that people not wanting spoilers should stay cautious rather than veteran readers leaving or not commenting. It’s unavoidable for the most part and as Bill said especially so the farther along we get.
For the most part people have been great about white texting things that are reveals but not vital to discussion and that’s great too.
Anyway, sorry again.
I still say mentioning Crone’s secret was a mistake; it’s brought up only a couple chapters later, and bringing it up early, before we get more information, hurts that scene and drags out discussion.
Nightchill and other items of interest I can agree with though; they add depth to what’s happening. I admit, that wasn’t my initial opinion on this, but after reading through everyone else’s comments I’ve been swayed. In particular I’m tempted to go into detail about Toc’s itch, which no one has touched directly yet, as it adds a large amount of subtext to the scene with Lady Envy.
But, BUT! Giving every minor spoiler can still take some of the fun out of the books, so while the comments are fair game, I still think Bill should hold back a little more.
Tek@84 ::raises hand:: I don’t know if I’m the most recent newby who’s joined the main discussion, but I’m probably close. I joined the group initially in mid-Feb after I finished GotM; and have been “fully active” as a participant as of DG Chapt 20-21, when I caught up to the reread (and what a place in the book to do so!). Since then, I’ve finished DG, finished MoI, and am now on Chpt 4 of HoC.
I’d say I expect to be reading about 1.5 to 2 books a month of this series (darn RL cutting in to my Malazan reading time). I’d project that by the time we finish MoI (don’t have my book but I think there’s approx 25 chapters and a prologue so that’s 24 more chapters divided by 2 chpts/wk = 12 weeks or approximately the first week in June, barring changes), I should hopefully be nearing or on DoD (I skipped NoK to read in the order of publishing, so I still have to read that one either after HoC or MT, I forget which was recommended. And RotCG after RG or TtH? Btw, is Stonewielder out? Am I supposed to read that between DoD and TCG, or when?).
Speaking purely selfishly, I assume I’ll be mostly up to speed and therefore just fine with the series wide arc discussions and references by that time, as I think someone here mentioned that the first 3 Erikson books are essentially a long prologue. Even at that point, I think I would still recommend against introducing major spoilers into the comments, for the sake of any newbies who come after me.
Btw, I think we’re also assuming that all of the Malazan vets have finished TCG and wouldn’t be spoiled by revelations from that book themselves (which is probably a likely possibility as you guys have been anxiously awaiting the conclusion for sometime). Just saying…
Finally, Wikipedia lists that Esselmont is supposed to be releasing “Orb, Sceptre, Throne” sometime in 2011, so I’m sure that will add more to the Malazan discussion. Maybe I’ll have caught up on all of the books by then…
My (hopefully) last comment re: the spoilers – I liked and agree with Amir@86’s comment about Coltaine’s death and the impact it had non-spoilered. I know that I was a mess…
djk1978@89 – speaking for myself, dude, you don’t need to apologize. Some of us (myself included) took that topic and ran with it. You just made an observation.
Mieneke @68:
No, Toc is not possessed by Togg. Recall that Hairlock tossed Toc into the chaos warren, where Togg, who has apparently been wandering the warrens searching for his mate (Fanderay) found him. Togg saw (or foresaw?) a whole lot of possibilities in this chance encounter with Toc and tossed Toc out of the chaos realm back to Genebeckis (near Morn). The implications and results of Togg’s actions re Toc will be revealed within this book.
Actually I haven’t managed to read TCG yet – can’t just set aside 8-10 hours and finish an Erikson book the way I can with pretty much any other author out there and RL is not letting me block 2-3 days that I need to read TCG.
case in point there goes the phone again
Amir@86, et. al:
Let me clarify. I don’t want those “whoa” moments revealed…that is not what I was implying, but the kind of connections like Nightchill = Lady of the Cold nights or the origins of Dragons…that is helpful.
Sorry…I didn’t mean to indicate that we should ruin those incredible plot reveals.
So… now that we all seem to be in agreement regarding spoiler policy, can we go back to talking about how awesome it is that Anomander Rake turns out to be Toc’s real father? :-)
Ki-Maniak@91: Stonewielder is out. Only having read it once, I don’t recall it spoiling/being spoiled by DoD, but given the option I’d read DoD and TCG immediately back to back, so I’d read it before those 2.
Amir@95: Well played.
@others: I have to agree with some of the other posters – the books so far are mostly introducing the characters and themes. As we go on, SE’s “echo patterns” are going to start hitting and the discussion should heat up. After all, now that we’re in MoI if someone says “remember back in GotM when X happened? This relates to that…” that can’t possibly be considered a spoiler, and it adds the depth people are asking for…
As for Toc’s itch… personally that was a “whoa” moment when I worked that one out. Made me go back and read those scenes again right away.
Re spoilers, I am pretty much on the same line as KThurak, Amir, Tek & Co.We should continue avoiding major future spoilers (major deaths, etc.), but the smaller stuff will become increasingly unavoidable if we don´t want to bring this here to a grinding halt. With each book, the information level rises, and it is cumulative ! Once we get to the complexity of something like Bonehunters, we will need file cabinets to *weed* through all the crosslinks going back and forth – we will be relieved about somebody mentioning the *small spoilery stuff* because there is so much *stuff* to begin with. I am fascinated, thru this reread, how relatively *straightforward* the first three books are compared to the latter part of the cycle…funny enough, they are mostly set-up…
Tait@97:
Whew. Glad we’re all clear.
OMG, the latter books are dense. Not a quick read, but sooooo thought provoking. I need my fix every day. Maybe I’ll just keep rereading this series in a continual loop. LOL. No, really. I can see why so many of you have read these several times. I’m already discovering in DG and MoI many things I missed in the first read.
I’m looking forward to the vets comments as we progress….
Mieneke@79: At least one character (in MoI I believe) claims that pre-Ritual the heart of Imass power was the Hold of Beasts, and that Tellan is a warren born of the Ritual itself and aspected of …dust. Likelyhood of that character being correct? Fair to middling I think. I don’t recall any of the Bonecasters that were actually present for the Ritual (the people that really ought to know) contradicting that, but someone else might have a cite.
Whether or not that makes them weaker or stronger is up for debate I think. It seems to invoke stasis in a lot of ways, which is interesting since the enemy Jaghut’s Omtose Phellack warren seems to do much the same. As Shalter points out above the T’ in T’lan Imass is significant.
About spoilers
I agree with everyone else who is posting on this issue that all major spoilers should be avoided. No one on here wants to spoil any of those “WTF” moments for the newbies. As Amir stated, I too love that I get to relive those moments vicariously through the newbies who are kind enough to post on here. I would absolutely never want to ruin those moments for anyone.
The type of spoilers I am talking about are the minor spoilers such as this weeks “Nightchill-SoCN” reveal. I am not even talking about revealing for the sake of revealing, but rather I would really like it if it is agreed that we can reveal MINOR spoilers when there is some value to the reveal.
If we can agree to stick to MINOR spoilers that do not really impact anything else, I believe we can get a bit more depth to our discussions, which will benefit both the newbies and us oldtimers. I believe that if we can loosen up just a tad and allow MINOR spoilers, this will allow us to more easily discuss some of the links and revisiting of events that make these books so different from everything else out there. For me, the links and revisiting are what make these books so special.
I certainly make no claim to understanding everything about these books because I have read them numerous times. Every time I read them, I find something that I missed on previous reads. LOL I am the first to admit that I frequently overlook something that is obvious to others, because I am looking so hard for something obscure. If we open this up just a bit to allow people to discuss some of these minor links, I really think it will be more enjoyable for everyone. I am sure that you other oldtimers will certainly be pointing out things that I have missed, and I am looking forward to that!
Thanks!
Tek @98
Well, I do kind of a selective looping deal ;). Sometimes I will pick just one POV and follow it through different volumes and still discover new things. So even upon rereads you end up missing things that may be important in the future. Also, SE loves to dump info in unrelated arcs (e.g.. if you look at it, MT has a truckload of background info ref the first four volumes) which has to be collected and placed into some kind of order. A good part of that info is ambivalent and open to interpretation. So to heck with *protecting* the small stuff – generally 2 chapters down the road, you have other things to manage to keep up.
In this sense, f. ex., keep a very close look to Lady Envy´s environs around Morn, especially in view of the prologue. ;0)
Robin @100
Re minor spoilers: As I said, I even think they will become unavoidable, especially since SE *hides* these things in open space & not everybody sees it. (heck, even I am finding out new things in the older volumes, but no prob if they get pointed out).
Just take into account that these talkbacks are a dynamic process,this reread will take quite a time (which is good !), people will come and go – so I expect this discussion about spoilers/minor spoilers to be something of a recurring phenomenon here. Don´t worry too much – that will become one of the little rituals of this reread. ;0)
@92 Alisonwonderland
toc may not be possessed by togg in the same way that cotillion possessed sorry, but there is definitely more going on than togg waking him up and sending him on his way. wonder why people keep mentioning this eye…
Also, the new layout?
Loove it! Thanks tor.com *thumbs up*
HArai @99:
Throughout the books we meet many T’lan Imass bonecasters. That pretty much guarantees that they were present at the Ritual. Two obvious ones already mentioned are Pran Chole and Olar Ethil (whom we’ve met in another guise before).
Toster @103:
Yes, Togg also gave him a gift, which will be revealed as the book progresses. But Toc is definitely not possessed.
If you mean the eye itch, you might re-read the sections where it occurred, and pay attention to what other actions were taking place at the time.
Aaaand… it’s Tuesday :-)
Trust in Tavore, Ganoes Paran
…
Trust in your sister…
Alisonwonderland@105: Well, sure we meet T’lan Imass bonecasters. My point was I don’t remember any of them explaining where Tellan comes from and how/if it’s different from what they used when they were Imass bonecasters. Do you? I’m on the road so I can’t check my books right now.
Outlaws, are we? Indeed, and Hood dreams of sheep gambolling in green pastures, too.
HArai @108:
Spoilers below:
As far as I remember, the Ritual essentially consisted of binding the Tellaan warren to each and every Imass (hence, the T’lan Imass). Where the Tellaan warren itself springs from is no more explained than where Omtose Phellack or the other other Elder warrens (Kuralds Galain,Emurlahn, and Liosan; Starvald Demelain) come from. The only thing we know is that each of the Elder warrens is associated with a non-human race; maybe they brought the warrens from wherever alien world they came from? Since the Imass are the ancestors of humans, the only thing we can say is that the Tellaan warren maybe did not have alien origins. Perhaps it does spring from the even more ancient Hold of the Beasts, but I don’t think it is any more than speculation at this stage.
Ah yes. Enter Blend and Picker. another of Erikson’s great friendship pairings, and female too! one of my favourite things about erikson’s writing is his ability to write females just as convincingly as males.
quotes!
‘I am named Munug.’
Picker glanced up, ‘You poor bastard.’
‘One day I may cook and eat you, sapper.’
‘And choke to death on my lucky bone.’
The Barghast frowned, ‘My offer was true, Hedge. To honour you, my friend.’
Yeah, Blend and Picker are favorites of mine as well. Best thing about them is that, in my mind at least, they aren’t technically a duo. I consider Antsy their third wheel. XD
“Not bad,” he judged. “Noble and mysterious. I’m impressed.”
“You should be. Such poses are not easy to hold, you know.”
His sleep was fitful, racked with dreams of running. Running on all fours. Then drowning.
Zetastriker@13:
Yeah, Blend and Picker are favorites of mine as well. Best thing about them is that, in my mind at least, they aren’t technically a duo. I consider Antsy their third wheel. XD
They are a duo. A couple, actually… ;-)
(and yes, I picked up on that one on my first read :-) )
@116 Fiddler
well of course, but i think z-striker is just saying that antsy is a great addition to the dynamic
Just because there isn’t much else to talk about at this moment in time:
So, is the cover photo above the original hardcover copy or something? My paperback has (EDIT, SINCE THE ATTEMPT TO WHITEOUT THE MINI-SPOILING SPECIFIC DETAILS DIDN’T WORK)
A guy with two swords and a woman with a broadsword on the top of a building in what appears to be city ruins.
Also, since we brought up Antsy & Picker, I get why she holds the position she does, but I don’t get why he holds his position based upon the reputation of the organization that they’re in. But, maybe that’s a conversation for a future post.
@KiManiak
Antsy does seem like an idiot. But remember that the Bridgeburners were an elite unit to start with and have undergone a murderous selection process since then. Those who were useless or incompetent are long gone…
@Toster and Kah-thurak:
Yes. Antsy may seem like a fool, but I have no doubt of his fighting and survival skills.
I have some more observations, but as KiManiak said, this may not be the ebst time and place, with a new post coming up later today. :-)
KiManiak @118: The cover art is what’s on my paperback version. It seems like there are at least two sets of cover art, I guess they are for different publishers. The old re-read index (
http://www.tor.com/blogs/2010/04/malazan-re-read-of-the-fallen )
shows the one you have. It also shows your probable version for House of Chains and Reaper’s Gale.
Maybe it’s North American vs UK version?
The cover art shown above is from the second Bantam (UK) edition. You can see a MoI cover gallery here:
http://encyclopediamalazica.pbworks.com/w/page/18881994/Memories-of-Ice
The cover art shown is for the second Bantam (UK) edition. You can see a gallery of MoI covers here:
encyclopediamalazica.pbworks.com/w/page/18881994/Memories-of-Ice
…
(Fricking spam filter.)
Late again to the party!
Got some time to read Prologue and some of the 1st chapter. The Prologue was one of the parts I liked the least in this book. The reason is that Erikson says a number of things without giving them time to “build”. So it’s a chain of impressive, barely believable events that we have to take at face value: the staggering time spans and the annihilation of millions of people at a whim. How has Kallor that kind of power to turn to ash a continent? It’s all played at a rise and it’s not easy to accept it all whole. You can say it as it is, but I have an harder time believing it.
The encounter between the three elder gods and Kallor also appeared as quite silly when I read it the first time. For a series that tries hard to keep a strong sense of realism, here we get three gods gathering in front of a too powerful man, they… curse each other, and part ways feeling smug. What?
I also have certain problems with specific parts. For example the dialogue between Pran Chole and Cannig Tol felt unnecessarily info-dumpy. I don’t know exactly if these two guys know each other but the dialogue feels more spoken to the reader than to themselves. They tell each other stuff that they both should know rather well.
Another problem I have with Kallor’s curses. The elder gods curses seem generic enough to be appropriate, but Kallor’s curses to the three are oddly specific. The one to K’rul makes sense but the other two feel like they were made specifically to fit with the events in the future, while it doesn’t seem that Kallor could have any motivation or desire to curse them so specifically. So, what’s up with all this awkward confrontation between them?
Or maybe I’m fooled, the cursing has no power in itself, no action, and it is just the speaking of truths, cages that are already there and merely revealed…
Also another specific issue that I’ll have to ask Erikson if we get the chance. In the latest world map we got in our hands, Jakuruku is placed west of Korelri. Both being also rather small (about the same size of Quon Tali). But in this Prologue K’rul moves through the whole Korelri and arrives on the west shore of Jakuruku, so it’s implied that their position is swapped.
With Esslemont writing a book about the unexplored continent I guess the confusion will need to be cleared (and why I continue to believe that a revision of all the books could be useful to pick at least these small things). It’s also quite telling the temporary name of the book “City in the Jungle”. In the Prologue we have:
They merged their power to draw chains around a continent of slaughter, then pulled it into a warren created for that sole purpose, leaving the land itself bared. To heal.
Or to be reclaimed by nature. An incinerated continent that becomes a jungle. This is the most important theme we have here. The Prologue opens with: the ravaged land held the scent of healing.
Kallor says: What I have unleashed will never heal.
Then the theme carries on beyond the Prologue:
‘Fire,’ Bauchelain noted as they walked on, ‘is essential for the health of these prairie grasses. As is the passage of bhederin, the hooves in their hundreds of thousands compacting the thin soil. Alas, the presence of goats will spell the end of verdancy for these ancient hills. But I began with the subject of fire, did I not? Violence and destruction, both vital for life. Do you find that odd, Captain?’
Environment that transforms.
Another theme in these first pages is about “ripples” and consequences. The war between Jaghut and Imass is somewhat mirrored with hunter and hunted, ays and ranags. The difference I see is that when the focus moves on the nature we see an equilibrium, while the relationship between Jaghut and Imass is instead man-made. In this case we see the consequences of the war on the environment, possibly destroying or restoring that original equilibrium.
This theme too carries over to the first chapter with the story of the stone bridge. This scene actually reminded me one near the end of DG, when Kalam arrives on Malaz City’s dock and “disturbs” the small creatures’ ecosystem there. I commented that scene in the reread, but the point is that Kalam’s arrival is like the one of an alien that creates a profound disturbance. These levels are so different, emergent one to the other, that the one above (Kalam) can be completely unaware of the one below.
Here it’s described how the destruction of the bridge has and will continue to have repercussions on the life of Darujhistan, and how human life, like ants, teems over the environment, is shaped and shapes it. The structures that rule the infinitesimal small repeat again on the emergent level. And on a broader level it is shown how “significance” is entirely a relative notion. Who’s observing? Raest, the Jaghut tyrant, considered Darujhistan no more than an anthill, and was going to lay waste on it without many scruples.
I wonder about the interplay of these parts, because described like that it’s like humanity is brought back down and chained on the natural level, so part of a certain equilibrium within nature.
@Aba:
How has Kallor that kind of power to turn to ash a continent?
IIRC, he used devices made by the K’Chain Na’ Ruk, who are cousins to the K’Chain Che’malle. They have short tails, and are very skilled in mechanics/physics (which is funny enough in its own way with them being lizards and all).
It’s been mentioned in a later book, but I forgot which one. Probably tBH…
For the rest, you raise a few interesting questions, but I have no answer to that :-)
Read more into the chapter, such greatness…
I was talking about the balance in nature and how sometimes men seem to break or be excluded from that balance. Toc the Younger joins this discussion:
‘An old friend? Yes, we adopted such animals into our tribes. It was that or see them starve. We were, you see, responsible for that starvation.’
‘Responsible? As in overhunting? I’d have thought your kind was one with nature. All those spirits, all those rituals of propitiation – ‘
But there’s a lot of greatness going on here, as the dialogue also gives another perspective on the T’lan and how their savage, mindless war against the Jaghut makes a contrast with them feeling responsible for the ays.
And the humor. Some great banter. I was surprised that Amanda didn’t comment the banter between Harllo and Gruntle and instead was more interested in Bauchelain. I actually expected more from B & KB in this book because I read the three novellas before it, since chronologically they preceded this book and it was for me an occasion to sample Erikson’s writing that was more recent, but in the end the characters are much better developed in those novellas and so in comparison the book here don’t delivers the full potential. Yet it’s Gruntle’s character that makes everything better. If in the novellas it’s Emancipor to give the amusing perspective on the events, in this book Gruntle is just an AWESOME point of view to confront B & KB. Doomed to never be taken too seriously.
Then great banter carries over to the scene of Toc and Tool (and a so great description “Laconic dessication on two legs”). It’s great when Tool mimics Toc sense of humor, but also some classic T’lan straightforward flavor:
‘What’s happened to the Adjunct? Where are we?’
‘Lost.’
‘Which question is that an answer to, Tool?’
‘Both.’
Toc gritted his teeth, resisting the temptation to kick the T’lan Imass. ‘Can you be more specific?’
‘Perhaps.’
Interesting how the frustration rises from its opposite: the impossibility for the T’lan of speaking ambivalently or ambiguously. T’lan language has lost the complexity and ambivalence of the human one, yet here the same frustration is created because they lost as well some basic conventions, or implying there’s more to a question than what is in its literal meaning.
One is left wondering, considering how Tool turns Toc’s joke, if Tool is aware of all this and is actually playing with it. The possibility would be weirdly human-like ;)
Is Tool still a T’lan or his separation and “freedom” let him recuperate some humanity?
The initial part with Toc reminds me strongly of Lovecraft. There’s one of his popular quotes that says something like: “It’s not dead what forever can wait.” It’s so fitting the story of these barrows (I had another fitting quote too, but I can’t recall it right now). Lovecraft too describes the passage of time that reaches a scale the mind can’t grasp (actually all Lovercraft writing is about staggering scale and breaking some form of balance or “sanity”) and there’s also this exploration of environment that feels alien, hostile and hiding terrible truths. All these aspects are strong in Toc’s scene and perfectly executed. A certain sense of dread that fueled everything Lovercraft wrote, here just slightly distanced by the fact that the scene is now calm, as Toc is only observing something happened in the past.
The only problem I have with the scene is the fortuitousness of Toc stumbling right on Tool’s body. How likely could it be? I have already complained about this in the past, sometimes there’s the idea that the wide scale of plot and environment still reduces to certain characters stumbling conveniently on each other so that the scene can develop in interesting ways. It’s neat plot-wise but it also is hard to “believe” and feel natural.
@Aba:
Yes, hes is still a T’lan Imass.
Well:
“You are no simple T’lan Imass,” she accused.
Tool made no reply to that.
He has definitely a “complexity” not so typical of regular T’lan Imass.
Finishing the chapter I remembered that I didn’t like the Seguleh, too blatant use of a trope and it didn’t make a lot of sense to me. How are you even able to make strict ranks? It shouldn’t be so rare that someone defeats a stronger opponent. “Skill” certainly matters but there are more variables in a fight and a whole society structured as a ladder is hard to believe as there can’t be that huge difference between the one at the top and the one at the bottom (and besides, how many survive if the fights are deadly?). Feels a bit too mechanical and RPG like even if it was probably done as a parody.
It works as long the tone is kept more humorous but it may give problems if the scenes become more serious (can’ remember if that happens in the book though).
@1 ZetaStriker:
Although I’ve made clear that I, for the most part, dislike what the Imass become, my feelings towards them are not entirely negative.
They also don’t see themselves so positively, or at least Tool. The chapter has a number of little touches like this one:
‘We are, soldier. We possess the privilege of choice. The gift of foresight. Though often we come too late in acknowledging those responsibilities…’ The T’lan Imass’s head tilted as he studied the ay before him, and, it seemed, his own skeletal hand where it rested upon the beast’s head.
@Abalieno:
That’s correct–he isn’t a “simple” T’lan Imass. He never has been a simple T’lan Imass.From Gotm, Tool:
He is free of his vows and so pursues his own course of action. However, at this point, he is still linked to the Tellan ritual (note his undead state) and so is T’lan.As for why he is in this area, from the prologue:
Until now he has not had the freedom to look around for people and answers he might want to find.
Great start to book 3.
I’m not going to make a detailed analysis this time. Just don’t have the time and energy for it.
I’ll just say, really happy that we have Toole back. I love that old sack of bones!!! For my taste, until now, the best humoric scenes are all with him. Not Kruppe, not Pust, no but with Toole!
You guys were discussing here about spoiler or not. Especially about two things Bill kind of spoilered in his commentary. While I would have prefered it a lot, if he would just have hinted at them in some way (Nightchill/Great Ravens), so the new readers could come up with it themselves a little easier, instead of telling it bluntly out as he did, what angered me really was the revelation of some commentator here, that the whitefurred ancient ancient beast that messed obviously with Toc in the warren is the god Togg. and that his mate he’s looking for would be Fanderay. THAT SURELY IS NOT SOMETHING I AND NEW READERS SHOULD KNOW AT THIS POINT. I surely don’t want to know. Well, I certainly hope, that this will not be the beginning of the end here to those wonderful spoilerfree times as I was able to enjoy them for quite some time now on this reread. As I understand, such things can be whited out. So why not doing that in this case?
So calling down the crippled god did NOT stop Kallor? Else, why would the 3 elder gods need to go destroy him?
K’rul blood… well, it’s all right there huh (i.e. warrens).
Who is number 1?
You are number 6!
I am not a number, I am a free man!
Do we ever find out who is number 1 (or zero)?
Am I the only one who laughed out loud at the way Tool was just waiting lying motionless on the ground for so long that he was buried in a fine layer of dust until Toc stumbled over him? Also how he just continued laying there while talking to Toc, until Toc asked him if he could at least stand up while speaking to him. So funny! I love Tool.