Hold onto your spheres, rereaders, because we’re heading into climax territory! In this week’s chapter, Dalinar thinks he’s got everything under control—so of course, it all starts going south on him. We finally learn the translation of the Dawnchant, and our characters learn that everything they thought they knew was a lie. They are the Voidbringers, the invaders. Humans stole Roshar from the Dawnsingers. Which puts them… on the wrong side of this war, from a certain point of view.
Reminder: we’ll potentially be discussing spoilers for the ENTIRE NOVEL in each reread—if you haven’t read ALL of Oathbringer, best to wait to join us until you’re done.
No broader Cosmere spoilers this week, so you’re totally safe to read on.
Chapter Recap
WHO: Dalinar, with Navani, Jasnah, Taravangian and others
WHERE: Thaylen City
WHEN: 1174.2.7.5, the day after Dalinar’s vision with Venli & Odium
(I just have to point out here that, despite all that’s still to come, this is one day before the big battle. One. Day.)
Dalinar arrives in Thaylen City and has a brief meeting with Amaram, in which Amaram expresses his displeasure at not being used to his full potential. He has a discussion with the Stormfather about the third Sibling. They begin the grand meeting in which they lay out guidelines for their new coalition, but in the middle, news arrives that a new Everstorm is on that way—early, and far stronger and faster than usual. Jasnah and Navani, meanwhile, have finally received a translation of the Dawnchant… and it is not what they expected. Everything begins to unravel as news spills in from several sources, all seeking to discredit Dalinar and his aims.
Beginnings
Title: Eila Stele
“The piece that historians have been most eager to translate is called the Eila Stele. Other sources claim it is old, perhaps the oldest document in written memory, said to be scribed by the Heralds themselves.”
A: For reference, Eila is a city in southern Iri, near the mountains and the border with Rira (see purple circle on the map above). Also for reference, a “stele” is an archaeological term for a stone or slab with an inscription carved into it. This piece, then, is presumably from a carving in the far west of Roshar—and probably preserved for this translation process at least partially from rubbings and drawings, since the stone itself would be about 6000 to 10000 years old, iirc.
Heralds: Battah (Battar), the Counsellor, patron of the Elsecallers, divine attributes Wise & Careful.
A: Okay, what do we do with her? She could be there to represent Jasnah and the scholars who translated the Eila Stele. Or for Dalinar, trying hard to be wise and careful as he maneuvers the political waters. Or for Taravangian, in a twisted way, who very carefully, with the wisdom of a true snake, prepared this day to destroy Dalinar’s leadership. Anything else?
Icon: Kholin Glyphpair, for Dalinar’s POV
Epigraph:
It will not take a careful reader to ascertain I have listed only eight of the Unmade here. Lore is confident there were nine, an unholy number, asymmetrical and often associated with the enemy.
—From Hessi’s Mythica, page 266
A: I really don’t have much to say about this epigraph, other than … yes, well then.
Oh, and this is one of the times when “lore” is correct.
Stories & Songs
“They came from another world,” Navani said, reading from her sheet. “Using powers that we have been forbidden to touch. Dangerous powers, of spren and surges. They destroyed their lands and have come to us begging.”
L: Forbidden to touch? Forbidden by whom?
A: Hmm. Forbidden by Adonalsium when they were created? Or by Honor & Cultivation, who thought it would be best avoided?
“We took them in, as commanded by the gods.”
L: So if this is the Listeners writing this, are their ancient gods still their ancestors? Or back then, did they have different gods?
A: I’d always assumed that they meant Honor and Cultivation, except that the next bit seems to contradict it.
“What else could we do? They were a people forlorn, without home. Our pity destroyed us. For their betrayal extended even to our gods: to spren, stone, and wind.”
L: Note that that’s three gods, they mentioned there. Wind, for Honor. Spren, for Cultivation. And Stone… for the Sibling?
A: I suspect that the three gods might be the ones we think of as the greater spren: Stormfather (wind), Nightwatcher (spren), and the Sibling (stone). The fact that Honor & Cultivation “adopted” the first two is part of what creates the confusion for the reader. Perhaps, when they came to Roshar, they deliberately chose to simply step into existing roles in a sort of partnership with those who already held those positions, granting them greater power in their own sphere rather than competing with them or putting them down. It’s kind of a cool thought.
L: It is. And it lends more credence to the idea that the Shin have some sort of close relationship with the Sibling, what with their reverence of stone and all.
“Beware the otherworlders. The traitors. Those with tongues of sweetness, but with minds that lust for blood. Do not take them in. Do not give them succor. Well were they named Voidbringers, for they brought the void. The empty pit that sucks in emotion. A new god. Their god.”
L: Odium? So when did he switch sides, here?
A: One area in which we need to be wary, I think, is accepting this limited viewpoint as pure fact. We know that the humans came from Ashyn, and we know that (at some point) Odium was trapped on Braize. Was Odium ever really their god, or did he just claim to be, once he was able to bring some influence to bear on Roshar? Either answer is possible, from what we know at this point.
“These Voidbringers know no songs. They cannot hear Roshar, and where they go, they bring silence. They look soft, with no shell, but they are hard. They have but one heart, and it cannot ever live.”
L: And so the shoe drops, and realization strikes home for our heroes.
A: It would appear so. My questions still revolve on A) Did the scholars translate the entire thing, or did they just send the first part once they had it? B) What other documentation exists that gives other angles on this event? I just… don’t quite believe that this is the whole story. There’s always another secret.
“The first Desolation was the invasion of humankind onto Roshar. We came here and we seized this land from the parshmen—after we accidentally used Surgebinding to destroy our previous world. That is the truth that destroyed the Radiants.”
L: And now we come to it, the turning point. Though, I still believe that there had to be something else going on to make the Knights give up their oaths. Learning that you were the bad guys, THIS many generations removed, is a sucker punch for sure—but I just can’t believe that it would be bad enough to make people kill their closest friends (their bonded spren) and give up defending their homes and families.
A: I agree. There’s got to be more to the story.
“What of this ancient record?” Taravangian said. “It claims that the Radiants already destroyed one world. Is that not what caused them to disband? They worried that their powers could not be controlled?”
L: I still don’t quite buy this.
A: Well, Taravangian has reasons to sow discomfort right now, and he really doesn’t want people to trust Dalinar. Factually, we know it’s not correct; the Radiants didn’t even exist until somewhere after the Desolations got started, the Heralds had formed the Oathpact, and the spren decided to copy it. I’m reasonably confident that Taravangian is sufficiently well-educated in all the lore to know that, and is deliberately conflating the Ashyn Surgebinders with the Rosharan Knights Radiant. Even if he doesn’t know it and is making a reasonable assumption, I’m not likely to give him the benefit of the doubt; he has strong incentive to defame the Radiants and reduce their heroic appearance.
Relationships & Romances
A: Navani and Dalinar are priceless. That is all.
Bruised & Broken
Sometime near the end of this discussion, Dalinar noticed Renarin shifting uncomfortably in his seat. As the Azish scribes began explaining their code of rules and guidelines for the coalition, Renarin excused himself in a hoarse voice, and left.
L: Just his introversion coming through, or is there more to this? Does he sense the same storm that the Stormfather mentions later, only earlier?
A: My bet is that he saw a vision of what was coming and either wanted to go find a way to stop it, or just couldn’t bear to watch. Depending on what the Stormfather was sensing, maybe Renarin does sense it earlier. Glys, however corrupted, is still a Truthwatcher spren; it could even be that Sja-anat’s meddling gives him a greater sensitivity to Odium activity.
Diagrams & Dastardly Designs
A: This chapter kicks my anti-Taravangian sentiments into overdrive.
The Oathgates were under almost perpetual use these days—Malata was running the device today, as was becoming her duty more often.
A: She probably complains about it being boring, even as she uses the opportunity to set up future plans. (I don’t like Malata, for the record.) This so perfectly plays into Taravangian’s Diagram, getting everyone used to trusting his pet Radiant and thinking of her as “one of the heroes.”
L: Yeah, I absolutely do not trust her and am waiting for the inevitable betrayal.
“You could call me Vargo, if you wish,” Taravangian said, pacing without looking at Dalinar. “It is what they called me as a youth….”
A: Trying so hard to be human, is that what’s happening here? I think this is one of his smart-but-not-compassionate days, but with just enough balance for him to understand that it’s not really a good way to be:
“It is nothing, Dalinar. Nothing. Silliness. I am … I am well today.” He stopped and squeezed his pale grey eyes shut.
“That’s good, isn’t it?”
“Yes. But it is not a day to be heartless. So I worry.”
L: Yikes. So today is a Smart day, is it?
A: Unfortunately, it appears so. This hint of a small part of Taravangian that is both intelligent and compassionate is the only saving grace for the man, IMO. I feel bad for the part of him that understands how awful he’s going to be in the rest of this chapter. But the part of him that says, “I will be better once we’ve started” — that’s the part I want to kick into orbit.
Jasnah leaped to her feet. “This is obviously a concentrated attempt to destroy our reputation. Someone deliberately released all this information at the same time.”
A: That someone is sitting right there, pretending to be shocked, worried, uncomfortable, and sad about it all. Taravangian planned all of this, right up to making sure that Jasnah’s correspondents would send her the translation at the exact time of this meeting, that he’d get his copies at the same time, and that just coincidentally Fen would receive news of the “highking business” and Noura would learn about the visions at the same time. Planned chaos, not allowing people time to deal with any one thing before they’re hit by the next. We know that the report Fen received was twisted just enough from the truth to make it seem like the highking idea was Dalinar’s plan for the coalition. The reports Noura received made it sound like Dalinar was choosing to meet with Odium to plan things, rather than that he invaded the visions against the will of both Dalinar and the Stormfather. (Also, why did Lift gasp? Just shocked that anyone knew about it, or fearing that she had let something damaging slip to the wrong person?) It’s possible my suspicions about the Eila Stele translation stem from the proximity of two known distortions of truth. Or it’s possible that I just don’t believe Sanderson would give us the whole story right away!
Back to Taravangian. This is what I meant about most hating the villain I’m reading currently. At the beginning of the chapter, I was itching to pummel Amaram, but now he seems like small potatoes compared to Taravangian’s vicious attack. I’m assuming that a lot of this was dictated by the Diagram, and I’d still like to know exactly where that information all came from. I also wonder whether he knew the Everstorm would come faster this time, and the timing?
Squires & Sidekicks
In addition to the five scout women in uniform, two women in havahs had joined Bridge Four. They carried notepads and pencils, and had sewn Bridge Four patches to the upper sleeves of their dresses—the place where scribes commonly wore their platoon insignia.
A: I smell a new cosplay coming on!
Seriously, though, I love this. Remember back when Lyn was disappointed with Kaladin’s “offer” that she could join Bridge Four as a scribe, and she turned him down? We were pleased when he realized that a scout might actually want to be a squire (and maybe a Radiant some day); after that, he opened up the opportunity for the scouts to “try out” for Bridge Four. (I don’t know about y’all, but I think I might have screamed a little bit when Lyn first drew in Stormlight.)
What we ignored at the time was that this solution, great as it was for Lyn and the other scouts, didn’t do a thing to solve Sigzil’s problem of being the default scribe for Bridge Four. He, too, wanted to be a Windrunner, but he was stuck managing logistics and doing paperwork half the time. I’m so happy to see this fixed in a way that benefits everyone; women who wish to do thing things they know how to do are part of the team.
L: Yes, I really love this (and not just because I’m, ::ahem:: partial to Lyn). I love seeing the scouts who are becoming full squires, but it’s nice to know that there’s still space for more traditionally feminine roles within the ranks as well. There’s no “right way” to be feminine, not even in Roshar.
Flora & Fauna
A: I’m being deliberately obtuse with this; I know Amaram doesn’t really belong in flora & fauna, but he doesn’t deserve to be called a sidekick, and he’s such a cremling. He turns into a rock-creature later… does that count?
L: Works for me. Amaram the cremling.
Dalinar stepped out of the Oathgate control building into Thaylen City and was met by the man he most wanted to punch in all Roshar.
A: As villains go, I don’t think Amaram is the worst, even in the Stormlight Archive. But he’s still a smarmy git and needs to be punched. His sense of self-importance is just stunning.
L: I think he’s worse than most, mostly because he truly does think that he’s doing the right thing for the right reasons. The worst villains in history are driven by what they view as moral imperatives, after all. His actions are self-serving, but he also does see them as right. And that makes him so much more dangerous, in my opinion, than a villain who exists solely to be Evil.
A: In this section, he’s salty over being sent to do cleanup duty, while others get the more “important” task of attempting to liberate Alethkar. His blatant attempt to glamorize his assignment as “the tactical importance of knowing the enemy fortifications” is just revolting… and in retrospect, all of this is foreshadowing. His troops will be the ones on the line to defend humanity, and they—with their knowledge of the fortifications—will be the ones who betray humanity and do Odium’s bidding. Especially Amaram.
L: F*** Amaram. Honestly, Moash gets a lot of hate, and rightfully so, but I hate Amaram just as much.
A: It reminds me of Robert Jordan’s response to “who’s your favorite character?” “Whichever one I’m writing.” I’m that way with villains: “Who do you hate most?” “Whichever one I’m reading right now.”
It’s also fun to notice that, despite Amaram’s pride in his reputation for running a well-disciplined army, his soldiers have been making a nuisance of themselves with their carousing. Clearly, they’re still the Sadeas army, despite the change in command…
L: …and Amaram’s not as great of a commander as he thinks, if he can’t get them under control. Kaladin is a great leader because he inspires greatness by leading by example. I don’t think Amaram could figure out how to do this if he were given a thousand page textbook detailing every exact thing to do.
Places & Peoples
“More bankers,” Fen’s son said. “The quiet economic collapse of Roshar continues.”
A: And then Jasnah and Kdralk have to explain to Dalinar (and the reader) just what effect the Everstorm and the new Desolation are having on the planetary economy. At least they’re all coming to a place that’s part of the coalition, I guess?
Also…
“Any larger gemstones?” Renarin asked. He turned toward them. “Anywhere in the city?”
“Sure, lots of them,” Fen’s son said. “Some really nice pieces, lie in every city. Um … why, Brightlord?”
“Because,” Renarin said. He didn’t say anything more.
A: Anyone placing bets? I’m betting that he’s thinking about the records in Urithiru’s gemstone archive, with its references to the perfect gemstones and trapping spren… Also, foreshadowing, especially combined with Jasnah pointing out the Thaylen Gemstone Reserve.
L: Yeah, that’s my bet, too.
Tight Butts and Coconuts
“Permission to stab him a little, sir,” said Teft, the bridgeman leader.
“How do you stab someone ‘a little,’ soldier?”
“I could do it,” Lyn said. “I’ve only started training with a spear. We could claim it was an accident.”
A: Please? Just a little bit? It would be so awesome… (Hi, Lyn!) (Also, this is totally something RL!Lyn would say, except that she’s been training with a spear a bit longer than book!Lyn.)
L: Mmhmm. I would stab Amaram in a heartbeat. More than a little stab, though. And since I primarily use stage combat weapons, it would hurt more.
A: Also, Lopen with short jokes for his cousin Huio, who throws them right back. I rather like Herdazians, you know? The humor is a little obvious, but it’s also delightfully pervasive. I like cheerful people.
L: Yeah, they don’t let anything get them down. I love that about them! I’m left wondering if this is a cultural thing, or just a familial trait…
A: Heh. Since they all seem to consider each other cousins, you could say they’re the same thing.
Weighty Words
“I’ve done it,” Dalinar said. “I’ve united them, Stormfather. I’ve kept my oath, and have brought men together, instead of dividing them. Perhaps this can be penance in some small way, for the pain I’ve caused.”
A: Well, it’s a start, but you have no idea how much farther you have to go! Poor man. The sad thing is, he’s worked hard and gone way outside his skill set to accomplish this much, and I’m pretty sure it feels like the most difficult thing he’s ever done. It might be… until the next 30 hours or so.
L: There’s always another step forward.
Unite them. A voice whispered the words in Dalinar’s mind, echoing with the same resonant sound from months ago, when Dalinar had first started seeing the visions.
“I’m doing so,” Dalinar whispered back.
Unite them.
“Stormfather, is that you? Why do you keep saying this to me?”
I said nothing.
L: This gives me the chills, honestly. Who or what is he really hearing, here? Is it just a memory, as he posits in the next sentence? Or is there something more going on here?
A: I’m convinced there’s something more. I just don’t have any valid guesses as to what.
A Scrupulous Study of Spren
“Feeling any better?”
I do not feel like men. I do not sicken like men. I am. The Stormfather rumbled. I could have been destroyed, though. Splintered into a thousand pieces. I live only because the enemy fears exposing himself to a strike from Cultivation.
A: Fascinating. Even though the Stormfather thinks Cultivation is being cowardly, he still reckons her to be immensely powerful, and knows that Odium is aware of the danger he poses. I think there’s more to this than we’ve been told; my pet theory is that Honor’s Splintering was an accepted risk in the plan he and Cultivation put together to contain Odium, and the plan worked, also making Cultivation stronger than anyone else realizes. But that might just be wishful thinking.
There is … a third sibling. They are not with us.
“In hiding?”
No. Slumbering.
“Tell me more.”
No.
“But—”
No! Leave them alone. You hurt them enough.
A: I can’t even begin to express how very much I want to know this backstory. What was it that hurt the Sibling? This implies something done by humans/Radiants; did their bonded Radiant damage them? What happened to the Sibling??
L: This one really has me scratching my head, too. If we’re going with the theory that the Sibling is Urithiru, the slumbering part makes sense… but how did humanity hurt it? By abandoning it and leaving it alone? If it’s primary purpose is to serve and protect, to harbor, then I can see being left alone and empty being particularly hurtful to it.
A: I’d agree, except for that thing in the gem archive about there being something wrong with the Sibling before they even left. I’ve had so many different theories, and every one of them gets contradicted by some other small comment. ::sigh::
L: I’m willing to bet that when we do find out what’s going on, we’re going to feel awful silly for not seeing it sooner.
“Honor, the Almighty? Did he truly care about men’s pain?”
He did. Then, I didn’t understand why, but now I do. Odium lies when he claims to have sole ownership of passion. The Stormfather paused. I remember … at the end … Honor was more obsessed with oaths. There were times when the oath itself was more important than the meaning behind it. But he was not a passionless monster. He loved humankind. He died defending you.
A: This brings up several issues as it harks back to Odium’s conversation with Dalinar in Chapter 57. There, Odium claimed to be “emotion incarnate” and said that the result of Honor’s influence would be to separate emotion from men. He said, then, that “Honor cared only for bonds. Not the meaning of bonds and oaths, merely that they were kept. Cultivation only wants to see transformation. Growth. It can be good or bad, for all she cares.” He claimed that only he understood human pain, and only he cared about it. The Stormfather’s clarification here addresses a bunch of interesting things.
One, Odium was kind of right in that the Skybreakers are what you get if you try to completely separate emotion from judgement. He was also wrong in that Honor’s influence did not solely result in the Skybreakers. The Heralds and all Orders of the Knights Radiant show Honor’s influence as well as Cultivation’s.
Two, it’s easier to see now why the Skybreakers were the only Order that stayed together; as Honor was dying/being Splintered, he became more tightly focused on the letter than the intent of an oath. That’s pretty much exactly where the Skybreakers went, right?
Three, I can’t help wondering if Honor’s “obsession” with oaths had something to do with the means of imprisoning Odium in the Rosharan system. If keeping his oath even to death was what it took to keep Odium tied down, his dying focus on keeping that oath no matter what would be pretty reasonable. Brandon has said that the process of killing a Shard is a “slow burn;” it takes a long time. It seems likely (to me) that during the years (decades? centuries?) that Honor was being Splintered, he became more and more focused on keeping the oath that gave meaning to his death.
L: Or perhaps clinging futilely to the one thing that he hoped might save him.
A: Very true. It could well be that he was trying to hang on to some vestige of his Shard’s Intent, hoping it would be enough to hold him together.
Four, and this may contradict Three, the Stormfather says that Honor died defending humankind. Was he protecting the Rosharan humans from Odium’s direct intervention, by binding Odium to Braize? Or was he protecting humanity as a whole, by binding Odium to the Rosharan system?
Five, the Stormfather has several times indicated that his bond with Dalinar is helping him understand both humans and Honor better, in a way that his previous Radiant bonds apparently didn’t. Is this because he’s forgotten what he knew before? Is it that he’s got so much more of Honor’s Investiture now, that the bond is significantly deeper? I’d really like to understand this better.
One more thing about the Stormfather:
Something … something is coming. A storm.
A: At this point, the spanreeds start blinking with news of the too-soon Everstorm, which is confirmed from multiple sources. The meeting takes a break, once they convince themselves that their ships can be protected from the storm, and Dalinar breathes a sigh of relief, thinking it wasn’t too bad.
That wasn’t it, the Stormfather said. He rumbled, his concerned voice growing very soft as he continued, There’s more.
A: I’m seriously trying to figure out how the Stormfather could sense the mess of information that was heading their way. He didn’t seem to know what it was, only that there was trouble coming. Ah, well. I suspect I’ll never know as much about the Stormfather and his abilities as I’d like.
How will our heroes deal with the knowledge that they’re the Voidbringers? Will Dalinar manage to hold onto the reins of this and ride through to true Unity? Stay tuned to the reread from here on out, and as always, chime in in the comments section! Next week we’ll be covering both chapters 112 and 113 and the first of the interludes, about Venli, as these are all short chapters. After that we’ll dive into Rysn’s interlude paired with Teft’s. Our schedule for the rest of the book is as follows:
- 1/23 – chapters 112, 113, and Venli Interlude
- 1/30 – Rysn and Teft interludes
- 2/6 – chapter 114
- 2/13 – chapter 115
- 2/20 – chapter 116
- 2/27 – chapter 117
- 3/5 – chapter 118
- 3/12 – chapter 119
- 3/19 – chapter 120, part 1
- 3/26 – chapter 120, part 2
- 4/2 – chapter 121
- 4/9 – chapter 122
- 4/16 – Epilogue, Ars Arcanum, and wrap-up
Alice is cheerfully snowed in. Yes, it’s only a few inches, but the way weather works around the Seattle area, there’s black ice under the snow, and it re-forms every night until the weather breaks. Having made sure there’s gas for the generator and plenty of foodstuffs in the house, she’s content… as long as the internet doesn’t go out.
Lyndsey is hard at work preparing a variety act for this season’s New England Renaissance Faire season, as well as being on cast for two (maybe three) others. Oh yeah, and Anime Boston is coming up too… If you’re an aspiring author, a cosplayer, or just like geeky content, follow her work on Facebook or Instagram.
“Okay, what do we do with [Battar]? She could be there…” because they’re gathered in a large council? I think it’s probably a combination. Jasnah as an Elsecaller, the scholars who translated, Taravangian’s careful designs, and the fact that this all centers on a council.
Count me as one that doesn’t think the revelation that humans were the first voidbringers is what turned the Radiants. Fear of destroying Roshar with surges, with Honor’s ravings holds some more weight, but still seems like not enough. While those may have set the stage and sown discontent/weakened resolve, there has to be another blow. Just like how here we have the news of the storm – oh, that wasn’t too bad – then bam, bam, bam, 3 more things in a coordinated effort. I can see the recreance being like this with Honor going crazy and the internal strife being the set up, then this news combined with other things – like the horrible consequences of what happened to the Parsh after binding Ba-Ado-Mishram (I think that’s the right one) falling in (relatively) rapid succession to break them.
Amaram the cremling – very appropriate.
@1, whitespine:
Yeah, I’m also of that opinion. The combination of Honor’s absence, the revelation and binding Ba-Ado-Mishram at the same time make sense to me. It’s one thing to realize that you’re in the wrong, another to find out after you’ve done something irreversible. And considering the Skybreakers are the only order that survived, if they followed the Honor’s words instead of intent, then it makes sense.
I’m also curious about the absence of Cultivation in all of this. I assume that she and Honor had a pact of some sort, much like Preservation and Ruin did. I find it hard to believe that she did nothing. I’m not sure how Odium splintered Honor though, but I assume that he has some sort of standard procedure. On Sel, there was both Dominion and Devotion – and yet, he beat them both. Have the Radiants put together yet that Cultivation is also a god?
I remember my reaction to the news of the Recreance was, as I think many people’s were, “Huh? That’s it?” It didn’t seem near enough for the Radiants to suddenly decide to kill their spren. Now, two years later, that confusion is even more pronounced. There HAS to be more to the Recreance. Way more. Which led me to ask Brandon this:
So my theory is that the knowledge that their powers destroyed their previous world, combined with the enslavement of the Parsh with Surgebinding, played a crucial role in the Recreance decision.
Thank you for the explanation for the Elia Stele! Honestly that completely went over my head. I thought it was just a name of a book, like Hessi’s Mythica. Now I know!
I think the hints regarding Renarin during the coming reveal of the voidbringers, and Renarin’s questions about the Gemstone Archive hints to him having had visions about them, but wincing, feeling sorrowful because he believes he cannot stop it. Must be downright torturous. To see tragedy befall the ones you love and care about, know it ahead of time, but feeling powerless to stop it. He gets to relive that pain over and over till it comes to pass in truth. Geez that kid has dealt with a whole lot.
Although it sucks for our main cast, the reveal I think was done wonderfully by Brandon. It all came together and got dismantled perfectly.
I believe Amaram is a delusional narcissist. He will see anything fall apart so long as it validates his personal need to be the one seen as a savior. Jasnah said it herself, he would destroy the army so long as it meant he could be the savior. We also see this in this scene, as well as when Dalinar wanted to travel out to the Shattered Plains.
I don’t feel for the Kholins in this chapter. They crafted this Highking foolishness. They voluntarily put the man having the worst possible reputation outside of Alethkar in charge. Then they act surprised and outraged when the plan backfires and is used to discredit them… Well… Welcome to the real world.
They should have thought about it. You can’t proudly carry a reputation for being the bloodiest conquerers on Roshar, put the most decorated of your generals (which equates to the most blood-thirsty of them all) at your head, and expect no one will have an issue with it. The Kholins are just bad at “international politics”, all of them if none foresee how this might be an issue, if they thought no one would fear they are out to conquer the world, again.
The whole time I was reading this chapter, I was internally saying: “Duh. Idiots.”.
On Amaram: Again, his chapters are sorely being missed.
I don’t think he is a narcissist: just because he doesn’t want to readily accept his guilt and chooses an easy way out does not mean he is a narcissist. Amaram clearly isn’t proud of what he believed he had to do. He doesn’t think he is perfect, he refuses Dalinar’s late offer because he cannot forgive himself for what he did. Those are not the characteristics of a narcissist. A narcissist cannot feel guilt because a narcissist never believes he did any wrong. That’s not Amamram. He knows he did wrong and he cannot live with it.
Yes, there is an arrogance to him and a “I am better than others” complex, but he still isn’t a narcissist.
Gavilar probably was one though.
Here is to hoping that after this fiasco Jasnah or somebody figures out that intelligent spren can spy on Our Heroes, both in the PR and from Shadesmar and comes up with some method to prevent it. Because the “High King” and “talking to Odium” stuff came from Malata’s spark eavesdropping on Dalinar’s conversation with Navani, IIRC, when Taravangian and his entourage first came to Urithiru.
It was also hinted that Mr. T was the patron of the male ardent in the ardent Interlude. So, he had his fingers in all the revelations and it was easy for him to coordinate the matters so that everything would come out simultaneously.
I feel like Amaram got a personality transplant to serve his role as a bargain-price Sadeas, sigh. He had such a potential as a complex, nuanced antagonist, but I guess that he would have been too similar to Dalinar/Venli. Nor did his and his army’s “familiarity with fortifications” really play any role in the upcoming battle, because the soldiers were just overwhelmed with the battle madness and didn’t employ any tactics. I guess that Odium needs to work on his spren connecting to humans a bit more for it to produce a more useful effect.
It never made sense to me that Kaladin’s Company of freed Bridgemen didn’t get their female supporting stuff back in WoR. I mean, after their regiments/menfolk died, the scribes of Dalinar’s army would have still needed jobs – even more so, really, if they lost their husbands, etc. And Bridge 4 was immediately respected by everybody in Dalinar’s camp, too. But better late than never, I guess. I also wouldn’t necessarily count the scribes out as potential squires or future Windrunners. Not everybody is going to be a stereotypical member of their Order.
Austin @3:
Thanks… But who were the recreating Radiants supposed to fight in the Feverstone vision, then? But OTOH, if some significant time elapsed between Ba-Ado-Mishram’s imprisonment and the beginning of the Recreance, it supports my conviction that Melishi was the Sibling’s Bondsmith and that resultant lobotomy of the parsh was what hurt them and forced them to “retreat”.
Gepeto @5:
Stormfather was the one who made the decision to send Dalinar visions – the choice of who was going to be the Bondsmith wasn’t upt to Kholins. But yes, the Alethi are somewhat blinkered in general.
I find this chapter’s epigraph interesting in a meta sense. Like, it’s tempting to read it as just ‘Brandon doesn’t want us to know about the ninth Unmade yet’, but that’s what we saw we Chemoarash a few chapters ago; she was just name-dropped with no further elaboration. But here we have doubt being cast on the idea that there even is a ninth Unmade. Even though we know that there is, and indeed know from Jerzien’s drunken ramblings and a Death Rattle that the ninth Unmade is called Dai-Gonarthis, the black fisher.
It leads me to believe that what’s important here is to conceal the information from the characters, rather than the audience. That if Shallan and Jasnah knew for certain that the being or phenomenon known as Dai-Gonarthis was an Unmade, that would have significant story implications. I’m not entirely sure what that means, but I still find it interesting.
@6: Who said the Bondsmith has to lead the entire world? He has to unite them, he does not have to become their King?
I do think the Kholins are guilty of having taking it a tad too far: instead of seeing the coalition as various countries uniting their forces, they saw it as the Alethi taking control of the world for the “greater good” while trying to convince others they will retire once the Desolation passes. Their strategy required blind trust the other nations are not willing to give them given their history.
I have no doubt that by this point, Amaram is in full league with Odium.
I guess the Eila Stele is a Rosharian Rosetta Stone.
Alicce. I agree with you. I think that this scene was something Renarin had seen in one of his images. Further, I think this is the beginning of a direct path that leads Dalinar to becoming Odium’s champion.
I have thoughts about blaming the current generation for the sins of their ancestors. But I pontificate at a later point. Probably the scene where Nale and Szeth have their conversation in the sky.
Thanks for reading my musings.
AndrewHB
aka the musespren
Why is nine asymmetrical? It’s a square, which means it has many kinds of symmetry.
@Gepeto:
Vorins in general and Alethi in particular value The Contest, victory, striving, more than they do anything else. Dalinar looks different from an outsider’s POV, but Dalinar really only started to learn about that after the Highking stuff was in place, and Elhokar never really did.
Yea! I made time to comment this week. Good job ladies! I know this chapter is a bear. Hard to believe the Reread will be wrapped up right as JordanCon is starting.
Re: the “Because” of Renarin – when I first read it – my mind went to the practical concerns, such as having stormlight for soulcasters and the creation of supplies during a siege. I was proud to see him thinking about such matters. Then a second thought was about the perfect gem hit. So really it is up in the air. Yet it remains a line you read and just know it “means something big.”
And now I have to go before saying the rest of my thoughts due to an urgent pop up work project.
Isilel @6 and Austin @3: Hmm. Perhaps the Windrunners and Stonewardens abandoned their oaths immediately after the enslavement of the Parsh (and hence the Feverstone Keep vision) but the other Orders held on for a few more decades until learning the truth of the Voidbringers finished them off. There was that passage in the in-world Words of Radiance that implies that Reacreance was only thought of as a singular event in retrospect, so it would make a certain amount of sense if not all Orders fell at the same time.
I definitely have to refresh myself again on the Singer/Listener history (and the overall timelines of Desolations/Recreance) as it’s all fuzzing together right now. We know that they ‘rebelled’ against their old gods, so when they say that, do they mean the gods mentioned here, or the Fused later on?
And agreed, 9 is a very symmetrical number :)
I believe the correct spelling is Chapter Eleventy-One.
@6 Isilel
So the definition of narcissistic personality disorder is when a person builds a delusion central to themselves that exaggerates, and self validates their own importance. Any time evidence to the contrary conflicts with this delusion, the narcissist feels threatened and guilty as their delusion falls apart. When this happens the narcissist will alter their delusion, or rationalize the information to support the delusion, thereby reinforcing their own importance. Amaram to me has done this when he killed Kaladin’s team, and carted Kaladin off to be a slave. When confronted by Kaladin with the reality, the guilt Amaram felt was not about what he did to Kaladin, it was the threat to his delusion. I reason this because Amaram did not muse to himself separating from Dalinar that he regretted his treatment of Kaladin, he said to himself that he regretted not killing Kaladin when he had the chance. So it was not because he felt remorse for his actions, it was because he was caught, and his delusion was challenged. This need to be central, and attached to important people I feel is validated by Jasnah’s comment on Amaram being willing to see the army destroyed so long as he can be seen as the savior. This is further validated for me because we see two specific instances where he calls exactly for that. One when Dalinar was going to travel to the center of the Shattered Plains, Amaram urged Dalinar to refuse the two allies who were going to join him. Dalinar responded that it would be foolish and they would be hideously outnumbered. Amaram pushed that it would bring all the greater glory to them when they triumphed alone. Then again we have this scene, where Amaram reasons it is learning the Thaylenah defense in order to attack them, to again reinforce the delusion that he has to be this great military leader. He goes on a rant about how Sadeas wasted him, and he is the best Dalinar has, despite his troops still acting disorderly. They are preparing for a battle with a great enemy, and Amaram’s first thought is to turn on their own allies to increase his own prestige. Those two instance I believe directly prove what Jasnah, who arguably knows Amaram the best, said about him. There are multiple other instances but that would be a digression. Suffice it to say, that was my reading of the character from Way of Kings all the way to Oathbringer. So my personal reading is maintained all throughout. For myself Amaram didn’t change. His narcissistic personality disorder just became more obvious as his delusion got more and more threatened, and it got harder and harder for him to rationalize it, till he fled to Odium, thereby restoring his delusion once more. But I totally get you could see things differently. Since he is dead, I guess we won’t truly find out till Jasnah’s flashbacks. Till then to each their own.
Wow, it’s been a long time since I remembered to read and then have time to comment too. But I love this chapter so much!! I love the big meeting, and Renarin’s somewhat shady behavior, and Amaram looking evil and Taravangian trying to not look evil. All while Dalinar is attempting to cement this unity of the coalition when it is not his strength. I love that the first translation of the oldest words are on a stele, like in our ancient history. I hate but love watching how T. gets all the info to all the people at just exactly the wrong moment; the background work for that had to be huge. But I hate seeing the hard work of Dalinar’s coalition falling apart as the rug gets pulled at the exact wrong moment.
A couple quick thoughts. 1, I wonder what Jasnah’s spanreed would have said if she’d turned it on. Because she was too busy reading the words from the Stele with Navani to turn it on. Maybe a warning? Or something else to blow the coalition farther apart?
2, Fen is a brilliant person obviously, for giving Dalinar a special copy of WoK. How many of us love getting special copies of our favorite books? She must be good people (like we didn’t have ample evidence of this already… this is just another example.)
3, Lift gasps when the Odium visions are talked about, but I don’t think it’s because she talked to Noura or anyone. I think she remembers the vision and wishes someone had talked to her before bursting out with it (not that she’s ever been *really* helpful before, just trying to give her the benefit of the doubt on this one).
4, Bridge 4 guards at the meeting all around the food table. Totally love that. And when Dalinar knows something’s coming they’re in tune and watching closely enough through the food that they instantly drop the food and come to attention. So sweet and awesome. They’ve come so far from book 1.
I need to get to work!
And that’s all my time for today. Thanks ladies, you continue to do a great job with this reread. And finishing at JCon will be so sweet. And it looks so soon!!
About Stormfather’s remark “You hurt them enough!”
A couple words seem interesting here: Which “you” is the Stormfather referring to? Dalinar personally? The orders of knights? Humans in general?
Also “them”? Why try to hide the gender of the sibling using the plural like that? While Syl mentions that some spren have multiple genders, all of the higher spren we’ve seen definitely stay male or female, and the spren born from Shards match the gender of the Shard associated with them. Looney theory time: Is/wasn’t one of the Shards “multiple people”? I thought it was Autonomy who is consistently referred to with plurals. Where does Stormlight fit with their timeline?
@17: Brandon uses singular-they for the Sibling. Though that is an interesting point, that they’re the only nonbinary spren we’ve seen so far.
@17 – The Sibling is genderless and thinks it odd that other spren have chosen a human gender.
I don’t feel that we really do need anything more to explain the Recreance. Learning that humans were the original Voidbringers mightn’t be sufficient yo explain it, but learning that Surgebinding destroyed their previous world is easily a good enough reason to decide Surgebinding is too dangerous to keep doing. Even if it means breaking the bonds with spren.
I have a sorta off-topic question for Lyndsey, Alice, and Aubrey:
At what point in the process do you start working as beta-readers on a book? Brandon’s website is showing Draft 2.0 as just over 50% finished. Do you start once that draft is finished or are you already going over it?
Please note that I am just curious about the process, not asking for anything that might be spoiler or confidential.
It’s interesting that Dalinar has to ask one of the voices in his head if he hears the other voice in his head.
I had a few brief moments of feeling sorry for Amaram in this chapter. He was “sort of” trying to be what he thought of as honorable. LOL – I just had a quick mindworm of Carly Simon singing “You’re no good, yoou’re no good, you’re no good”.
Something just occurred to me about the Eila Stele revelation. No one seems particularly shocked by the idea that there are other planets and that those planets held sapient life. In our world, if we got definite confirmation of that, it would be the greatest scientific discovery of all time. But the shock of Dalinar et al. doesn’t seem to be “Holy crap, aliens exist and we’re them?!” Before you can get to being shocked that humanity destroyed its previous home, I would think you’d have to assimilate the knowledge that humanity had another home in the first place.
Do we know how much the Rosharans know about cosmology? Do they even know that Ashyn and Braize are planets, or do they just think of them as really bright stars?
Nina @23. Great point/question about other worlds.
Thanks for reading my musings.
AndrewHB
aka the musespren
Remember though that the idea that humans were once somewhere else (Tranquiline Halls) and lost that place in battle to fall to where they are now is the creation myth of Vorinism. I don’t think we have any indication of their notions of physical cosmology, but their theological cosmology makes this less of a shock and more of a “that’s the way things are so we won’t even notice it” (fish in water) moment. They probably aren’t thinking in terms of planet, but simply of place
I feel like people have always kind of assumed that life exists on other worlds. Like we’ve only recently managed to convinced ourselves that there aren’t any other inhabited planets in the solar system, and we only succeeded in doing that by gathered hard evidence.
And in the Cosmere, where interstellar travel is relatively easy, the idea of aliens existing is naturally going to be an even more pervasive cultural idea for them than it is for us. ‘Mysterious traveller from another world’ is probably gonna be a common genre in fiction, and since you get occasional real-life examples of that happening, the idea is going to filter through the culture as something that’s 100% possible in theory. Which is why nobody was all that surprised when Azure turned out to not be from Roshar.
But none of that requires practical knowledge of other planets. Indeed, we’ve never seen them connect Damnation or the Tranquiline Halls to the physical planets. We’ve seen Kaladin refer to Damnation as Braize, but the star in the sky appears to just be a brighter-than-normal star. At least to him. It’s hard to imagine that there aren’t any Rosharan astronomers who’ve noticed that they move in the sky. Probably they haven’t made the connection to the Vorin afterlives though.
@Nina:
They don’t seem to, though. They know that “Voidbringers” came from somewhere else (Damnation) and invaded Roshar. I haven’t seen the concept or word “planet” in their viewpoints at all. They see it as more the way some Christians think of Heaven and Hell.
Thoughts on the Sibling and the Recreance:
I’m thinking the damage to the Sibling has to be tied the events around the Recreance. First theory is that the Bondsmith who neutered (for want of a better term) the parsh was bonded to the Sibling, and whatever that action was reflected back on the Sibling themself. I’m thinking this is similar to the damage caused to spren at the Recreance that made them Deadeyes. However, since the Sibling was that much more powerful, it may not have “killed” them but rather caused a type of catatonia that they haven’t recovered from yet (reflecting Syl’s history to some extent). Regardless of which of these may be closer to the truth, I’m guessing that if Adolin manages to revive Maya, a similar revival will be tried with the Sibling.
Thoughts on “Unite Them”:
I’m thinking this is an echo of Honor breaking through. There may be more to the existence of Dalinar’s visions than either he or the Stormfather realize. They may be evidence that Odium didn’t splinter Honor as fully as he thought.
That WoB at #3 is very interesting to me. Because when I read Jasnah and Pattern talking about the Recreance, early in the book, I asked myself: “What would be a fate worse than death which would cause the old Knights Radiant to break their bonds, and which might cause the new ones to do the same, which Jasnah might plausibly disregard?”
The answer we got in the book doesn’t seem to qualify: none of the new Radiants seem to even consider breaking their bonds.
The answer I came up with was this: “What if the connection to the spren could be exploited in the same way that the Parshendi connection to Ba-Ado-Mishram was? What if being a Knight Radiant meant risking losing your Identity, your very mind?”
I was disappointed to be wrong. But that question and answer to Brandon hints that perhaps I was not wrong.
The further we get in this reread, the more I am convinced there is a hidden downside to a Spren bond. I agree that the revelation in this chapter simply isn’t enough to cause all the knights save Skybreakers to break their bonds. Every one? Over something that happened millennium ago and where now they serve Honor over Odium? Wouldn’t that be a form of redemption to them?
The best reason to universally break the Spren bond, is if something is wrong with that bond. We know Spren form a deeper bond with humans than parishmen. We know the Spren become more human through the bond, that the Stormfather can understand emotion. The bond obviously goes both ways. I think that results in things like Nale’s emotionlessness and other side effects.
Additionally, we need to consider the Secret History of Mistborn. There Kelsier was around as a cognitive shadow because he was invested enough and was able to communicate with people still alive. Maybe some of the voices Sazeth and Dalinar hear are actual people. Could being a Knight Radiant give you enough investiture to stick around? Maybe the danger is a form of spiritual corruption, you can’t go to the beyond as a knight, or you are trapped on Braize or even stuck to your Spren, unable to act. Regardless, I am confident that the something is up with Roshar’s afterlife and that something is up with the Spren bond.
On the question of Honor becoming more attached to oaths as time went on, I see this as a theme that Sanderson developed in the original Mistborn trilogy, and has continued to allude to in this: any attribute, taken to extremes, becomes evil. Any virtue, unbalanced, is a vice.
Ruin becomes obsessed with destruction (Ati was a good man, once).
Preservation is unwilling to allow humanity to grow, and thinks in Secret History about how wonderful the he Lord Ruler is because he doesn’t change.
Harmony is just slightly off kilter due to Kelsier’s retention of a portion of Preservation.
Odium bears the weight of God’s own divine hatred, stripped of the other attributes that gave it context.
Honor begins to care more for the technicalities of an oath than the motive behind it.
Autonomy becomes isolationist and xenophobic.
I think the list goes on, and has driven much of what happens in the Cosmere since the Shattering. Watch for this theme in the long game – it’s going to be important.
Well we know, that Ishar bound the knights by oath from the stormfather and the epigraphs of words of radiance. Also the captain of the honorspren states, that the surges are dangerous without honor. I think while honor was dieing during this last generation of Knights radiant, the surges got out of control and the Radiants destroyed Natanatan into the shattered plains (since the destruction fits the effects of the surges and the Fused did not destroy the plains i do believe its very likely). The sole fear of destroying the planet would have worried the Knights for sure, but it wouldnt have led them to collectively abandon their oaths, but the destruction of a whole kingdom as example might have stirred that discussion.
@32 Havi
Oh yeah! I had forgotten about the Shattered Plains! I had once included that in my list of things that could have led toward the Recreance, and I agree that event likely played a role, too.
Roger @21 – The beta read start varies a little, depending on how Brandon handles revisions. I’m assuming that, with the Draft 2 mark at 50%, he’s already sent Parts 1 and 2 (each as he finished it) to his editor, while he continues working on the rest. When he gets Part 1 back, he’ll incorporate the needed revisions, and then that will go out to the beta readers while he keeps working on the Draft 2 revision. They try to keep the “pipeline” going so that everything is being worked on by someone all the time. Does that make sense?
I don’t know for sure what stages everything is in, but this is how Oathbringer worked and it’s my understanding that we’ll use the same process this time. The latest I’ve heard is that the beta will start sometime the end of January or beginning of February.
If anyone cares, we’re in the midst of gamma-reading the first volume of The Way of Kings leatherbound. It will be beautiful.
@34 Wetlandernw
I do have a follow up question regarding the Beta read. One of the things that always gets me excited about the leatherbound versions is seeing all the various covers and artwork for the books. In an interview, it was mentioned that in Stormlight 4 we will get to see artwork of all the radiant spren except one order. When reading the Beta, do you get to see the artwork that may accompany the book to add further context to what you are reading?
Scath @35 – Sadly, no. We don’t see much of the artwork until we get the book. Well, the people who work FOR Brandon or live in the near vicinity might, but the rest of us just see what they share publicly. Sometimes we see interesting foreign cover art because one of our collectors shares a photo, but that’s publicly available. In the gamma version, all the artwork is marked TK. (To come, roughly)
@36 Wetlandernw
Thank you for the answer!
regarding Battar’s image: the easiest explanation would be that Battar herself kicked these scholarly events into motion. Taravangian himself later confides to Dalinar that he believes Dova is in fact Battar.
@34 Wetlandernw
Thanks for sharing.
@31. That gives good hints at what Hoid is up to as well.
Cremlings are Aimians, that’s not what Amaram is (it would give him more power than he should have).
The Eila Stele is no Rosetta Stone, the Rosetta Stone allowed translating other texts because it had the same text in three writing systems (Greek, hieroglyphs and demotic). Dalinar and his visions are the “Rosetta Stone” in this story (it is probably an application of his translation magic, although others he brings into the visions also seem to understand what the people in the visions say. But that might be because they are Dalinar’s visions and they can “borrow” his translation magic).
Nine is odd, not asymmetrical.
@birgit, sharing his powers with others seems to be part of what a Bondsmith can do, as when Dalinar shares the Stormfather-perceptions of the world with Shallan.
Not all cremlings are Aimians. Only “oddly colored” ones are suspicious, according to Brandon(‘s implication).