Hey, y’all! Welcome back to the Avalanche! We’re moving fast this week, with three (short) chapters, finishing off Part Four and starting the last set of Interludes! Just in case you missed the note last week, this is the big day—the Battle of Thaylen Field will commence later on this same day.
Reminder: we’ll potentially be discussing spoilers for the ENTIRE NOVEL in each reread—if you haven’t read ALL of Oathbringer, best to wait to join us until you’re done. This week’s reread contains no larger Cosmere spoilers, so at least you’re safe on that ground.
Chapter Recap
WHO: Kaladin; Dalinar; Venli
WHERE: Shadesmar, approaching Thaylen City (Kaladin’s memory takes place in northern Alethkar); Thaylen City; A cave outside of Marat
WHEN: 1174.2.8.1, two days after leaving Honor’s Path (Kaladin’s memory takes place sometime between 1169 and 1172). Venli’s Interlude takes place on the same day. Dalinar’s chapter takes place the day before (1174.2.7.5, the same day as the disastrous Ch. 111 meeting).
We begin with chapter 112, in which Kaladin reminisces about his relationship with Tarah when he was in Amaram’s army. She left him with an admonition to stop living for the dead. They approach Thaylen City and finally see the Oathgate in the distance—but it’s surrounded by an army of Voidspren.
In Chapter 113, we stand with Dalinar and watch as his coalition shatters around him. Everyone leaves except for the other Alethi and Queen Fen, who has no choice. The Stormfather reveals that the Recreance happened because the old Knights Radiant became convinced that their powers would destroy the world.
Venli’s Interlude begins with Venli preaching to the newly freed Listeners. A Fused arrives and takes her to a ship, part of a vast fleet which is sailing towards Thaylen City. The Everstorm is approaching to push them there faster.
Beginnings
Chapter 112: For the Living
“Oh, Kal,” she whispered, then squeezed his arm. “Maybe someday you’ll learn how to be there for the living, not just for the dead.”
Chapter 113: The Thing Men Do Best
I tried my best to hide this, the Stormfather said.
“So we could continue living a lie?”
It is, in my experience, the thing men do best.
Venli Interlude: Rhythm of Withdrawal
Rine changed to a new rhythm, one she rarely heard. The Rhythm of Withdrawal—one of the only new rhythms that had a calm tone.
Heralds:
Chapter 112: Chach, aka Chanarach (Chana), Brave/Obedient, Dustbringers, Role: Guard; and Shalash (Ash), Creative/Honest, Herald of Beauty, Lightweavers, Role: Artist.
L: I can see Kaladin being represented as Chach, the Guard—he’s guarding his brother’s memory and the young soldiers he’s taking under his wing. If that’s the case, then Tarah’s Shalash, in her honesty.
A: Kaladin is also sort of serving as guard for the Expedition, but he’s doing a lousy job of it because he wants to get back to the Physical realm to guard Dalinar.
Chapter 113: Talenelat (Talenel, Taln.) Herald of War. Dependable / Resourceful. Stonewards. Role: Soldier.
L: War is coming, and Dalinar is the last man standing, as it were. Much like Taln was the last Herald remaining to break.
A: Well, that made me choke up, Lyndsey. Thanks. Though now that you mention it, I do think the comparison is apt. Perhaps Taln here also reflects the way that everything else Dalinar has tried to be, to become, has fallen apart on him, and all he has left is Soldier.
L: Well…
Venli Interlude: Battah (Battar), Wise/Careful. Elsecallers. Role: Counsellor.
A: I keep expecting to see Kalak on Venli’s chapters, but right now Venli is definitely trying hard to be both wise and careful. She’s starting to know too much, and is very careful to keep it from the Fused, all while trying to learn more.
Icons: Banner & Spears (Kaladin POV), Kholin glyphpair (Dalinar POV), Singer (Venli POV)
Epigraphs:
I am certain there are nine Unmade. There are many legends and names that I could have misinterpreted, conflating two Unmade into one. In the next section, I will discuss my theories on this.
—From Hessi’s Mythica, page 266
A: I feel like I ought to go back and review all the epigraphs now, to see if she did conflate two of them… except that at least half of what we know about them comes directly from these epigraphs. Circular logic is circular? And maybe she didn’t conflate them, given the next epigraph.
If I’m correct and my research true, then the question remains. Who is the ninth Unmade? Is it truly Dai-Gonarthis? If so, could their actions have actually caused the complete destruction of Aimia?
—From Hessi’s Mythica, page 307
L: Man, whenever the destruction of Aimia gets brought up it just makes me insanely curious as to what that’s all about. I can’t wait until we get that story!
A: Having just reread the chapter with this epigraph fresh in my head, I can’t help wonder if her question is answered by something the Stormfather says:
[Honor] raved, speaking of the Dawnshards, ancient weapons used to destroy the Tranquiline Halls.
Did one of the Unmade somehow have access to a Dawnshard, or a part of one, or one that wasn’t fully functional any more? Is it possible that Dai-Gonarthis used a Dawnshard to try to destroy Aimia?
Thematic Thoughts
[Venli] was growing dirty, rough. That was what the Fused seemed to want: a hermit living in the wilds.
L: The archetype is a good one, and it’s wise of the Fused to be playing up to it—the martyr, last of her people, having lost everything in the Good Fight.
Buy the Book
The Stormlight Archive 4
A: It’s clever of them, indeed. I’m glad that she is starting to feel the pain of the lie, as she wonders whether any of them may have survived. In this chapter, she doesn’t really acknowledge her own role in their destruction, but… she knows it.
“You must sail to battle. For the future, for your children! And for us. Those who died that you might exist.”
L: It’s a VERY powerful narrative she’s spinning, and it’s not entirely untrue. Except for the fact that they didn’t have to die, that the Fused orchestrated all of that… but… didn’t they? If the Fused hadn’t taken over, would any of this gone as far as it has? Would they have come this far in reclaiming what rightfully should be theirs?
A: Well, the slave-parshmen certainly wouldn’t be here if it hadn’t been for the Listeners who summoned the Everstorm, so there’s that. And those who died in that battle, whether protecting the singers or unable to fight because they were too busy singing, they certainly “died that you might exist.” Those who survived the battle, though, seem to have died for the sole purpose of giving bodies to the Fused, and I’m less sympathetic to that aspect. (It of course leaves out the question of what happened to the Listeners who escaped… but I expect we’ll learn about them in the next book.)
L: I really do love this dilemma, because there is no wrong and right side here. We’ve spoken about this at length before in chapters in which Kaladin is struggling with this very question, but it’s very brave of Sanderson, I think, to be tackling such a huge philosophical dilemma. If the Native American people were to one day rise up and decide to take back lands which once had been theirs, what would be the outcome? Who’s right, and who’s wrong? It’s horrifying to think about, for both sides.
A: The logical thing seems to be to find a way to coexist, except for one major catch, which… well, we’ll talk about it below.
Stories & Songs
It’s been a long time since we had to add to our running tally of Singer Rhythms, but this week we’ve got a new one: Rhythm of the Terrors, Craving, Command, Fury, Satisfaction, Derision, Spite, Abashment, Destruction, Agony, Conceit, Ridicule, Subservience, Withdrawal.
Amid the sea of lights were two towering spren, much like the ones they’d seen in Kholinar. One sparkled a multitude of colors while the other shimmered an oily black. Both stood tall, holding spears as long as a building. The sentries of the Oathgate, and they didn’t look corrupted.
L: Every time I see these things, all I can think of is the Oracle from The Neverending Story. I find the colors interesting… the inky black makes me think of Jasnah’s spren. Are the Oathgates associated with different orders, do you think?
A: I’ve always assumed so. It seems reasonable that they would be associated with the two Orders who can use Transportation—i.e. the Elsecallers and the Willshapers. Seems like maybe the sparkly one ought to look more like the Reachers in that case, though their other name of Lightspren seems appropo to this appearance.
That bridge was guarded by an entire army of enemy spren, hundreds—perhaps thousands—strong.
A: Let me just say… Yikes‽
“I thought… maybe we came from Shinovar originally.”
That is the land you were given, the Stormfather said. A place where the plants and animals you brought here could grow.
“We weren’t able to confine ourselves to what we were given.”
When has any man ever been content with what he has?
L: Wow. Ouch, Stormfather.
A: It’s almost hard to remember back before we knew this, but this was a wonderful theory-confirmed moment: that Shinovar was indeed the place where humans were first settled when they came to Roshar. I look forward to learning more details.
“The Almighty kept this from his Radiants,” Dalinar said. “When they discovered it, they abandoned their vows.”
It is more than that.
L: CALLED IT.
A: Yes, it never felt like “our ancestors ten thousand years ago were the invaders” was enough to make all the Radiants abandon their oaths and destroy their spren. This is one of the times when I get confused between the beta version and the final version, because I never read the final with as much intensity as the beta. :( I forgot that there was more explanation to follow.
L: Same, actually.
My memory of all this is… strange. First, I was not fully awake, I was but the spren of a storm. Then I was like a child. Changed and shaped during the frantic last days of a dying god.
But I do remember. It was not only the truth of humankind’s origin that caused the Recreance. It was the distinct, powerful fear that they would destroy this world, as men like them had destroyed the one before. The Radiants abandoned their vows for that reason, as will you.
L: Ah, there we are. This definitely makes more sense.
A: Does that also explain their willingness to kill their spren along with their bonds? If they just abandoned the spren but left them alive, the spren might bond with others and still destroy the world?
In the past, Honor was able to guard against this. … But in the days leading to the Recreance, Honor was dying. When that generation of knights learned the truth, Honor did not support them. He raved, speaking of the Dawnshards, ancient weapons used to destroy the Tranquiline Halls. Honor… promised that surgebinders would do the same to Roshar.
“Odium claimed the same thing.”
He can see the future, though only cloudily.
L: Yikes. So is this going to be one of those “we have to destroy the world in order to save it,” things? Are we looking at an Avengers: Endgame scenario in the future?
The ancient Radiants didn’t abandon their oaths out of pettiness. They tried to protect the world. I blame them for their weakness, their broken oaths. But I also understand. You have cursed me, human, with this capacity.
L: Yeah, this makes way more sense. I would never be able to see people killing their best friends because of a long-past transgression by their ancestors. But to save the world? Yeah. Yeah, I can see that.
A: ::sniffle:: Yes, I can see it, and while it seems pretty harsh, I can even believe that maybe the spren were in on the plan and sacrificed themselves for it. You know, this makes me want Maya revived even more; if she can remember the decision, she could tell us about it! (And if all this is correct, I wonder how much the unbonded spren were told. Were they just told never to bond humans again, or not to trust them, or something? So that there would be a massive distrust among the spren to avoid future bonds? And then the Skybreakers stayed to make sure it didn’t happen?)
“The strongest and most skilled of our number have yet to awaken—”
L: Well, that certainly doesn’t bode well for our heroes.
A: Yikes?
“—but even if we were all awake, we would not fight this war alone. This world will not be ours; we fight to give it to you, our descendants. When it is won, our vengeance taken and our homeland secured at long last, we will sleep. Finally.”
L: Oof. Just driving home that knife to us, the reader, that they’re not wholly the bad guys here. They’re not killing just to kill. This isn’t Sauron the Deceiver we’re dealing with. They just want to get back what was unjustly stolen from them, and to add insult to injury, their entire people was enslaved, their autonomy removed… what the ancestors of our heroes did really was a terrible, terrible crime.
A: To be fair, the enslavement came after thousands of years of war, and at that it seems likely to have been an unintended side effect. That doesn’t make it less terrible, of course. But here’s the catch I mentioned. For the Fused, this is still personal. (At least, for those who still have some semblance of a mind…) These ancestors, some or all of them, were actually alive at the time the humans came to Roshar. For all we know, one of the Fused carved the Eila Stele. What’s really bizarre is that, in all probability, some of the Fused knew some of the Heralds before any of the warring started.
Which reminds me… There may yet be more to the story. It may be that some of the Singers welcomed and encouraged the humans to spread out, while others resented the human presence and viewed it as an invasion. (More similarities to the Native Americans and the original European settlers of the Americas.) Given that some of them intermarried, I’d like to see more records from those early days before we take the Eila Stele as the sole authority. I wonder if the Horneaters have some historical information that they haven’t shared yet. Maybe Ellista & Co. from that monastery up in the Horneater mountains will find something.
Relationships & Romances
Kaladin remembered a woman’s kiss.
A: At long last, we get to learn more about Tarah! Two books with hints, and now we “see” her in Kaladin’s memory. This is the third and last of the “Kaladin remembered” sections in Oathbringer, which fill out some of the things we didn’t get to see from his past during his flashback sequence in The Way of Kings.
Back to Tarah. She was the quartermaster’s daughter when Kaladin was in Amaram’s army, and they were most definitely romantically involved.
L: I like her. She’s very grounded and stable, which—let’s be honest—Kaladin sorely needs, from a romantic partner or even his friends. He’s so emotionally volatile that he needs a rock to stabilize him, until he learns how to do it himself.
A: And in this scene, he’s literally using a rock. A white, brown, and black one. Unfortunately, I’m not sure it’s stabilizing him—not the way Tarah could, if he’d let her.
He never sent responses. Because he was stupid, because he didn’t understand. Because men make mistakes when they’re young and angry.
Because she had been right.
L: Oh, Kal. At least in retrospect he sees his mistakes, though. More than we can say for some.
A: I’d like to smack him on her behalf, but as you say…
L: I really do hope that we see her again someday, though I’m not convinced I’d want to see them get back together. I hope she found someone else and hasn’t been pining after him, she seems way too sensible to do that. But she did seem to be a good match for him, so I wouldn’t be opposed if she found her way back into his life!
A: Yeah, that’s a dilemma. We don’t know for sure how long ago this was; before his slavery, but after Tien’s death, so it could be anywhere from two to five years ago. If the latter, I really hope she’s moved on! If this was shortly before the fight with Helaran (though long enough for her to write a couple of letters), I could see her still being single.
Bruised & Broken
[He couldn’t leave.] Not while he carried that stone in his pocket, not while the memory of his brother dying was fresh in his mind. Not while lighteyed highlords got boys killed in petty fights.
L: Poor Kaladin. I like to think that he did learn from Tarah and make strides in this during the course of The Way of Kings. He took care of Bridge Four, he led them away from the edge and gave them something to live for. But he does still cling way too much to the dead, to his responsibilities and perceived failures to protect them.
A: He does. I’m not big on the “shrug and move on” motif, but he takes every mistake as a vast personal failure, and wallows in guilt over things that weren’t even necessarily his fault.
I tried my best to hide this, the Stormfather said.
“So we could continue living a lie?”
It is, in my experience, the thing men do best.
“Don’t insult us.”
What? Is this not what you’ve been doing, these last six years? Pretending that you aren’t a monster? Pretending you didn’t kill her, Dalinar?
L: Yes, hello, police? I’d like to report a murder.
A: That’s really unfair, though. Dalinar hasn’t been pretending he didn’t kill her; those memories were completely gone. And even then, while he certainly intended to kill a lot of people that day and the term “monster” is applicable in that sense, Evi wasn’t supposed to have been one of them. For all Dalinar knows at this point, he could be guilty of pretense if he asked Nightwatcher to take away his memory, but we know that’s not what he asked. It’s just what Cultivation chose to give him. On the other hand, Stormfather probably doesn’t know what Dalinar asked for either, so they’re likely both making the same assumptions.
L: I’d argue that Blackthorn!Dalinar was a monster regardless of whether or not he meant to kill Evi, but you’ve got a point in that it wasn’t a conscious choice on his part to forget (or as the Stormfather put it, pretend) that it didn’t happen.
Diagrams & Dastardly Designs
“I’m sorry, Dalinar,” Taravangian said softly from behind. “I assumed everyone had the same information, and that it would be best to air it. I didn’t expect all of this…”
L: You SNAKE. You absolutely did, you lying, conniving… ::deep breath:: Ugh. I get that he thinks he’s doing the right thing, to save the world, and all. But UGH.
A: UGH. Everything he says in this conversation is a lie. Every last word. The whole thing was intended to destroy Dalinar, and he pretends to be sad. Foul wretch. And Dalinar still believes he’s a kindly if somewhat helpless old sweetie.
Squires & Sidekicks
Dalinar’s attention was drawn to a solemn group of men leaving the temple below. Bridge Four, spears held on slumped shoulders, heads bowed as they quietly marched down the steps.
L: Oh no. Not Bridge Four! DON’T LOSE HOPE!
A: This hurt so much to read. I’m still not 100% sure I believe that (without Honor ranting about destroying the world) the modern Radiants & Squires would take it this way. On the other hand, they’ve lost their leader, and for all their confidence that he’ll return, it’s got to be wearing thin. For now, they’re led by someone who hates himself at least as much as he loves Bridge Four, and that’s not an inspiring leader.
“Sir,” Teft said. “We thought we’d head back to Urithiru. We left some of the men behind, and they deserve to know about this business with the ancient Radiants.”
“What we’ve discovered doesn’t change the fact that we are being invaded,” Dalinar said.
“Invaded by people trying to reclaim their homeland,” Sigzil said. “Storms. I’d be mad too.”
“We’re supposed to be the good guys, you know?” Leyten said. “Fighting for a good cause, for once in our storming lives.”
L: Hoo boy. Yeah, that’s got to be one hell of a blow.
A: Hmm. ::hums to Skepticism::
“We’ll see what Kal says,” Teft replied. “Sir. All respect, sir. But we’ll see what he says. He knows the right of things, even when the rest of us don’t.”
L: Yikes. Poor Teft has no idea just how bad of a place Kal’s in, right now. I love their loyalty to him, and how they all look up to him. It speaks volumes to his talent at leadership. But… boy. Seeing inside of his head like we do sure gives us, the reader, a different perspective on him than the one he shows the world.
A: True. They don’t see the depth of Teft’s weakness, but they all know about it. Kaladin’s weakness, though… they don’t even believe he has any weakness. Kal knows everything. Kal will be able to tell us what’s right. And meanwhile Kal is coming apart at the seams over in Shadesmar.
L: I’m going to put Fen here, for the moment:
“Best I can tell, you’ve become a good man right in time to bravely sink with this ship. That’s commendable, until I remember that the Blackthorn would have long since murdered everyone trying to sink him.”
L: I love her so much. She’s honest to a fault, and even though this hurts Dalinar to hear, she’s right.
A: I know. I’m not sure this is what you were thinking, but… I was looking back at the beta comments, and someone was like “No, do NOT summon the Blackthorn!” In the end, no, we will need the “new” Dalinar, but I can certainly see her point. When you’ve got an army bearing down on you and your fortifications are still only barely in place, having the Blackthorn at your side would feel a lot better than a defeated would-be politician. Even if you did have to worry that he might decide he owned your country when it was all done, at least your people would likely survive.
Flora & Fauna
The jungle-style trees had given way to taller, more statuesque ones with deep crimson trunks and limbs like burnt-red crystals that, at the ends, burst into small collections of minerals.
L: This is so cool and reminds me so much of Final Fantasy, with all it’s crystal areas.
A: It would be awesome special effects on screen. In reality, it’s a bit much to imagine!
L: I’ve always said that I would much rather see Stormlight Archive done in animation, and things like this are a big reason why. The budget a live-action film or TV series would have to have to pull it off would be ENORMOUS. It would make the dragons and the direwolves in Game of Thrones look like child’s play.
Weighty Words
Be there, Tarah had told him. For the living.
… Worry pulled him forward. Step after relentless step.
He had to get to the Oathgate. He would not fail like he had in Kholinar.
A: He’s pushing hard to get back to Dalinar, which is commendable, but what about the living who are with him? Adolin can keep up, and the spren don’t get tired, but he’s pushing Shallan way too hard.
A Scrupulous Study of Spren
Exhaustionspren circled above, like large chickens.
L: We know that “chicken” to the Alethi means any kind of bird, so it’s not quite so silly as it sounds to us. But… it’s still kinda funny to think about chickens flying around them.
A: Heh. It’s truly a snicker-worthy mental image! I just kept thinking about how that would give away their position, like buzzards circling a dying creature in the desert. They make a great signal if you want someone to find you and help you; if you’re hoping to hide from the “someones” who are searching, not so much. Stupid chickens.
Quality Quotations
It had been four weeks. How long could he keep pretending that Adolin and Elhokar were alive out there somewhere? That pain hid behind the rest, taunting him.
Ouch.
Next week, we’ll be tackling the other two interludes—Rysn’s, and Teft’s. As always, please join in the conversation in the comments, if you feel so inclined!
Alice is done with the yearly Snowmageddon and has settled back into The Long Dark Wet of the Pacific Northwest. At least it’s not spider season anymore.
Lyndsey is so ready for winter to be over. Bring on the 70 degree days and the sunshine, please! If you’re an aspiring author, a cosplayer, or just like geeky content, follow her work on Facebook or Instagram.
I disliked Kaladin in this chapter.
I strongly disliked his obsession over needing to absolutely get back to the physical realm just so he could stand still and protect Dalinar. I mean, I understand the need to find a way back towards the physical realm, but this focus on needing to achieve it just so he could protect the most powerful human being on Roshar is beyond me. As far as I can tell, the one person who does not need Kaladin’s protection right now is… Dalinar. Dalinar is surrounded by guards and Radiants already, why would he need Kaladin on top of it? Why does Kaladin think all of Bridge 4, Jasnah, and the entire Kholin army are not *enough* to protect Dalinar?
In the mean time, both Adolin and Shallan do need him, a fact Kaladin is stubbornly ignoring. Adolin might be able to physically keep up with the trek, but he is literally lost in Shadesmar, powerless, unable to fight its creatures, incapable of drawing stormlight to sustain him (or to breath when drowning in spheres, another fact both Kaladin and Shallan keep on ignoring), and unable to feel the spheres. Shallan might have the advantages of being a Radiant, but she is no soldier. She can’t fight and she can’t physically keep up unless she uses precious stormlight to help her. They both… need Kaladin because Kaladin theoritically fulfills a role neither Shallan nor Adolin are able to fulfill while being in Shadesmar. He’s the soldier, the protector. Right now, Shallan can’t be it, neither can Adolin because he just does not have the capacities for it while being in Shadesmar.
And we know how the story goes… Kaladin will forget Adolin cannot fight Fused, Adolin will get stabbed to death, Shallan won’t be able to convinced the Oathgate to let them through, and Kaladin will keep on fussing over not being able to protect Dalinar all the while Adolin stares at the strange sky waiting for death to come. Priceless.
So I disliked Kaladin here. My hopes are he will learn to become less self-centered in RoW. I really wish for a less self-centered narrative for Kaladin, a more outward one. I want to read Kaladin learning how to become a *good* friend.
On Dalinar: Yes, the Blackthorn was a monster. He was a selfish brute capable of empathy and compassion but choosing to ignore those feelings because it felt better to just slaughter people. I do get he did not intend for Evi to die, but her death serves to remember the people Dalinar killed were wifes, children, and husbands for *other people*. I have found it has been too easy to handwave Dalinar’s actions because most of his victims were nameless, but there was Evi. Unfortunately, without a “Kaladin” to mourn her and to affected by her death, she still isn’t quite enough to depict the horrors which Dalinar unleashed. Hopefully, Oathbringer, the book, will get one of Dalinar’s sons to drop his rose-teinted goggles and start having a reaction. Hopefully.
And yes, I do cherish the moments where other in-world characters recall the readers how much of a bad person Dalinar once was. I felt it was needed.
On the side note: I was disappointed in Brandon recently saying Amaram was beyond redemption because of what he did to Kaladin. I was baffled and moderately angry. Not because I particularly like Amaram, more because I feel if Dalinar is allowed to redeem himself for Rathalas (and Szeth for choosing to murder a bunch of people and also Venli for all she did), then surely Amaram’s actions alone do not bar him from redemption. According to Brandon, they do. Hence, it seems there are actions which are considered unredeemable in the Stormlight Archive, but apparently burning alive thousands of people isn’t one of them. Killing 5 people in an act of betrayal, however, is. The logic of it evades me and this new take really disappoints me. Once again, the nameless children of the Rift was seen to matter less than… Kaladin’s squad.
I preferred when it was implied no one was beyond redemption, even if I chafed against it, it was still better when redemption was something any given character could achieve, no matter what they did. At least it was fair and equal: everyone played by the same rules, but nope.
Crazy theory time: We’ve talked a lot about what the Unmade might be, with several speculations about corrupted humans/singers/cognitive shadows or spren or parts of the heralds, etc. Going to the spren part – since we know spren make shardblades, what if the Dawnshards were made by unique spren, and those spren are what were “unmade”. Thus, both the Unmade and the Dawnshards would be responsible for Aimia as they’re the same thing. Not saying I even believe this – for example, we know not all fancy blades are spren (see Honor blades) – but it would be interesting.
@Gelato
Which “recent comment” are you talking about? The closest thing I found on Arcanum was that what Amaram did to Kaladin “was worse than anything he did in Oathbringer”.
@3: It was in the latest livestream… Brandon said he believes Amaram was unredeemable because of his actions. I’d have to listen to it again and make sure I am not paraphrasing too much.
Gelato, yummy!
This right here is why I’m more sympathetic to the Fused than I probably should be. Humankind has already kind of shown that it can’t be trusted considering this [the most recent war] started because Gavilar had to go snooping around, regardless of the Parshendi committing the assassination. We also do know that at least some of the Fused were friendly towards humans, considering Hoid’s brief memory about dancing with one of them in the past and then side-stepping her in the present. Lastly, we know that noble causes can become corrupt over time – the Lord Ruler, Ruin and other Shards being consumed by their Intent – so having good intentions to fight the war and then going insane over the centuries doesn’t seem so far-fetched to me.
@@@@@ Gepeto
First, I agree that Kaladin is pretty annoying in his obsession to get back to Dalinar, but we do know in hindsight that he is right. Dalinar is the lynchpin of the Knights. You forget that Szeth alone could have killed Dalinar and had tried to. Now you have to deal with the Fused, who are both pretty strong and more numerous. They also only have three other Radiants. – one of which is Malata and the other is Renarin, who can’t fight. He’s going overboard in his panic, but he isn’t wrong.
Second, you’re removing agency from Shallan and Adolin. They aren’t damsels in distress. They may not be as capable as Kaladin, but they don’t need him to defend them. It’s rough, but the only reason that they are rushing even more is because they are being chased. It’s not like Kaladin is taking the rest of the Stormlight and leaving Shallan and Adolin to their fate.
That’s not quite how I would describe Kaladin dealing with six of the Fused, if I remember correctly. And I’m sure the fourth Windbreaker oath is about ditching your friends because you feel like it, and not about acceptance of death or helplessness. I’m not sure what else they could have done! Trying to escape from Shadesmar at that point is about trying to survive anyway. If Kaladin could have killed the Fused so easily, I think he would have done so.
Just wanted to say I appreciate the effort with the maps! Even showing where Kaladin and Co separate from Vivienna really helps!
Also I agree, I really do appreciate Brandon including the moral dilemma of the two peoples (singers and humans). The way Brandon has chosen to cover it really humanizes each side. I once read a very interesting description in Max Brooks’s Word War Z. Generals and the Military like to throw around the term “Total War”, but it is impossible. The idea that every action a nation takes, civilians and all, is to aid the war effort is fictitious. During World War 2, you would have children gathering scrape metal, and the like with the call that everything they do, is to help the men abroad. But this is a misnomer. In the novel, they expound on how using the bathroom does not aid the war, sleeping does not aid the war. While zombies (in that mythos), their entire existence aided the war. They never stopped. Why I bring this up? Because a “people” are not just the war machine. There are far more levels and depth than first appears. And I think Brandon did a wonderful job bringing that to fore.
@5: I would argue the ending of Oathbringer does show Renarin *can* fight. And the scene with Re-Sephir too. He is not a soldier yet, but he is not exactly helpless either, especially once he find his voice towards the end. This being said, I get your point though, realistically speaking, Dalinar remains the most heavily guarded man on Roshar. I felt it was exaggerated for Kaladin to think only *him* can protect him, thus rendering the many bodyguards Dalinar already had as useless not to forget Dalinar himself who’s a basically invincible Knight Radiant.
My intends were not to depict either Shallan and Adolin as “damsels in distresses” (I actually hate this trope), but to depict how Kaladin forgot what was right in front of him to focus on a hypothetical future where Dalinar hypothetically needs protection only he can provide. All the while he is lock in this mindset, he is ignoring the very real people currently walking with him who are increasingly more at risk of needing his help than… Dalinar.
We’ll get to the Fused chapter, but Kaladin managed to attract four and thinks Adolin can deal with the last two. While I am not sure what more Kaladin could have realistically done here, I mostly blame his inner processing which automatically believes two Fused are not too much for unarmed (except for a harpoon) Adolin. Turns out, one Fused alone was too much for him: he is just not quick enough to fight them, not without a proper weapon, a surprise effect (like Moash) or… a nahel bond. It is this lack… of judgment Kaladin shows which irritates me. On one side he thinks of Dalinar as some damsel in distress absolutely needing his personal help despite knowing he is well surrounded Knight Radiant and on the other side he ignores the grim reality around him in which is Adolin is no Knight Radiant, he can’t fight Odium’s minions no matter how brave and talented he may be.
That’s why Kaladin irritates me in this chapter and will keep on irritating me for a few more chapters as well.
Minor Skyward series spoilers: The themes of “both sides are people” and “both sides have legitimate grievances against the other” also come out really strongly in Starsight; in later parts of the book I kept thinking of Kaladin while Spensa had her revelations.
@1 I’m pretty sure Kaladin knows he needs to get back to Dalinar because of what he saw in the lighthouse.
I really hope that even those Listeners who assumed Stormform aren’t all gone and that some of them may be saved. Didn’t Venli think in an earlier chapter that a couple of thousands of them should still be around? Well, there aren’t as many Fused around yet and the history of the Lost Legion demonstrates that even voidform singers are capable of repudiating Odium in the right circumstances. Like, for instance, if somebody manages to convince them that they are being cannibalized by the Fused under the false pretences.
And it makes me so annoyed that apparently nobody – none of the scholars, not even Jasnah(!) and none of the members of the Bridge 4, not even Renarin (!) or Sigzil have apparently questioned Rlain about his people’s lore and history. Frankly, that doesn’t seem plausible to me. And by association, neither does defection of the Bridge 4. Alright, those were shattering news, but in addition to not questioning Rlain, didn’t they listen to the records of Dalinar’s visions? I thought that those were widely known among the Alethi and that the squires in particular had reason to pay close attention to to them and learn not only about the terrible devastations of the Desolations, but that Honor himself claimed that Odium would destroy Roshar if not stopped and the Radiants were required for that! Contrived and unbelievable, IMHO.
But I fervently hope that from now on Dalinar will show his visions to as many new Radiants as he can, particularly the one with Honor. And it should be instructive to the Skybreakers as well and help them with the decisions imposed on them by Nale.
Hm, oddly enough it seems that the great Bondsmith spren used to be less sapient than the other Radiant spren? I mean, those remember their previous experiences after returning to Shadesmar and Stormfather has been bonded before. Also, there are plenty of people who are content with what they have. They just aren’t the majority.
Alice:
So, here is where the alleged inability of spren to break their oaths should have come into play again. If it is indeed impossible for them not to keep their vows, then killing them was unnecessary. Instead, the Radiants could have asked them to swear never to bond and to prevent other spren from bonding and it would have been as or even more effective!
Frankly, I strongly suspect Ishar’s hand in Honor’s “ravings” and the idea of the Recreance. After all, we know from Dalinar’s vision that Honor even at the point of his death, believed that Odium was more dangerous to Roshar than the Radiants and wanted them to return in order to oppose him.
Lyndsey:
Even Melkor and Sauron had non-evil reasons for their struggle against the divine plan to begin with. Whatever the truth of their original motivations, the Fused are still fuelled and molded by the power of Hatred and nothing good can grow from that. Also, according to the Listener lore the parsh were enslaved by Ba-Ado-Mishram , before they became lobotomized by humans, as a side-effect of her imprisonment.
Regarding the Eila stele I fully expect some “fields of Camlann” kind of misunderstanding between the humans and the singers led to the original incident, with Odium adroitly intercepting and converting angry singer souls and converting them. I don’t see how Honor’s Intent could have allowed him to side with oath-breakers, so I assume that neither side was wholly in the right or in the wrong even at the very start.
Gepeto @1:
Dalinar is currently the most important as their only Bondsmith and Honor’s heir. Only he could unite the Radiants and keep them cooperating, as the gem epigraphs amply show. Also, honorspren are particularly close to the Stormfather and Bridge 4 without Kaladin are just some normal dudes, who wouldn’t have been able to stand up to the Fused.
@9: I know this is why he wants to go back so badly though on gigantic side of me chafe at the idea one would readily believe “visions” as the sole truth. Still, even if he had solid proof visions were irrevocably true, it still does not excuse him for side-lining the very real people who currently stands with him.
Wanting to protect Dalinar should not come at the expanse of Adolin being allowed to die in dignity surrounded by people who would actually care about his death, not with a man who’s focused on the next task and is annoyed he can’t protect “someone else”.
@10: Prior to Dalinar, the Stormfather was bonding with Gavilar. At that point in time, everyone would have said only Gavilar can unite the Knight Radiants no matter what his other personal flaws were. Then Gavilar died and the bond was transferred to Dalinar.
Now everyone says only Dalinar can single-handily unite the Knight Radiants… Isn’t it a bit reductionist to think he is the only living human being who can fulfill this task? To think no one else would step up should he tragically die? To think the Knight Radiants would automatically disband and go their own ways without Dalinar? Would no longer fight Odium? Would not find *another* leader?
My point remains the same: protecting Dalinar should not come at the expanse of other people. History have shown us no man is irreplaceable and while it is logical they would want Dalinar to get as much protection as he can get, when stuck in Shadesmar was just not the place to focus on *that*.
On the side note: Dalinar also had Jasnah who can kill Fused at will and he also has himself, a battle weathered veteran. Bridge 4 also had the Honorblade, which was stolen, but Kaladin does not know this. Hence, I found Kaladin’s focus on protecting Dalinar disproportionate given the real need.
I do not know why, but I hope we see Tarah in Book 4 (and not just in flashbacks). I would like to see her reaction as to what Kaladin has become. From what little we know of Tarah, I think she would not see much difference in Kaladin since the were dating. I think she would realize he still has this need to save everybody who Kaladin thinks is under his protection. Personally, the best person I think for Kaladin is the head trainer/keeper of Dalinar’s horses. She views people for who they are (at a character level) and not because said person has light or dark eyes. In the same way that horses do not see their rider as a light or dark eyes.
I think there is merit in the Stormfather’s belief that what men do the best is to live a lie. Many people (and I count myself in this class in a lot of situations) will continue to do what they have been doing because it is comfortable; change is hard. In the same way that taking the next step is hard. The Matrix movies are a good example. I think many people (myself included) would have rather lived in the imaginary/Matrix created world) rather than in the real-Matrix world, where humanity struggles for everything.
Lyndsey and Alice (and all commenters as well). Do you think the destruction of Aimia is one of those things that Brandon will never completely reveal? In the same way that the protagonists do not know what happened, the reader may never know. It would be a different way of doing world building. Sometimes, mysteries cannot be solved.
Alice: But are those who have yet to awaken (the strongest and most skilled) senile? If they are not, then it may not matter (to the humans) that they are have not awoken. Also, is it possible (and I do not remember the context of how this knowledge was conveyed to the reader) that the strongest and most skilled is meant to be Sadeas’ forces as we will see shortly?
Does Stormfather now that Dalinar went to Cultivation and had the memories temporarily removed? Perhaps the Stormfather believed that Dalinar was just ignoring the past and choosing to lie to himself about what really happened to Evi.
Lyndsey and Alice. To place devil’s advocate re Taravangian’s statement to Dalinar. Perhaps in his own way, Taravangian was telling the truth. Based on the level of intelligence and compassion that King T had on this day, he truly may be sorry and his intellect was such that he really did assume that everyone had the same information. I do not subscribe to this theory but, if King T could not lie (like an Aes Sedai in WoT who took the First Oath), then he could possibly make say what he said to Dalinar and believe it to be true.
Alice. Another thing to consider. At this point, Fen did not know if Dalinar as he is today is strong enough. In her mind, the Blackthorn was strong enough to lead this war. We find out in fact that current Dalinar is strong enough. BTW, I am referring to strong enough in character and inner strength; not the strength that comes from Investing/Suregebinding.
Thanks for reading my musings.
AndrewHB
aka the musespren
@8 Nazrax
I agree! Great reference
@9 John
My thoughts exactly
@10 Isilel
I would have to check, but I thought of the stormform parsh that survived, the fused then used to possess them, which is why Venli is the only one left. Odium decided he wanted her for something else. So I do not believe there are any others because they are already fused now.
As to Rlain, I think it was commented on that Rlain being in the background in book 3 was intentional. So I do not think we know whether or not Rlain was interviewed. It was just not brought out on screen, and we do not know what else is going on with Rlain yet because we have not seen it.
As to Dalinar’s visions, they were released by Sadeas altered to make him look insane. Dalinar then released the accurate ones. Very few if any of the bridgemen can read. They could ask a female scribe to read it to them, but I do not think they had cause to till now. They just knew parsh were bad, then voidbringers were bad. Only now are they learning there is more going on. At least that is what I recall.
I think part of it is the stormfather merging with Tanavast’s cognitive shadow is why he is different now. The nightwatcher for instance still needed help from cultivation to learn human concepts. Pattern and Syl as they bond with their radiants still do not understand a lot of human concepts.
Are we sure the spren would agree to a vow they think they potentially could not keep?
As to Dalinar, for myself at least I do not see whether he is the most important man or not as relevant to Kaladin. I took it as Kaladin saw a vision in the painting. He took that vision as telling him, that he needed to save Dalinar. That whatever endangered Dalinar, only he could save Dalinar from. I mean only Kaladin did see it in the painting, so I can understand how he could feel the message was for him and him alone. That because Kaladin failed Elhokar, he wouldn’t let himself fail again. So my own understand does not matter how much protection Dalinar gets, the message from the painting was that Kaladin in particular had to be the one to protect Dalinar, and Kaladin attached it to him feeling he failed Elhokar. So in that light, I think it makes sense. Was it a good choice for Kaladin to do so? I don’t know. But I can see Kaladin as a human with emotions and flaws making such a decision and feeling the way he did.
One thing I’ve been wondering: what if the Radiants didn’t mean to kill their spren? What if they thought breaking the bonds would leave their spren stunned but able to recover in time, like what happened to Syl when her Radiant died? It would help explain a lot and, AFAIK, the Recreance was the first time full deadeyes were created.
@10. Agreed that there almost has to be more to the start of the human/singer wars than the Elia Stele implies. Partially because I don’t see Honor siding with the humans if they were the ones to break the treaty first and start the wars, and partially because the whole “humans are actually the real monsters and the non-humans are just innocent victims” trope feels a little overdone to me, and I have a feeling that Brandon has something a little more original planned.
I’m wondering if there might have been parsh on both sides of the early Desolations. It seems a little unlikely that the parsh would turn to Odium as a species, and we know there was interbreeding between humans and parsh.
Brandon being Brandon, the parallel between the Recreance (atrocity to save the world) and the Diagram (atrocities to save the world) can’t be an accident.
I disagree. He is not lying when he seems sad. He is sad. He really, sincerely regrets doing what he thinks is necessary, and he really does like and sympathize with Dalinar. He just refuses to kill the world over it.
@Gepeto
I have never liked Kaladin. Too much of his story arc is just his doing the wrong thing and refusing to change his mind until a properly dramatic moment.
@Isilel
We don’t know that. Brandon has admitted he’s hiding Rlain until Book 4 (or later).
@12: My feelings for Kaladin depends on which book and which chapter I am reading. I typically have a lot of sympathy for him in WoK and I felt he was a very compelling character inside this specific narrative. I generally enjoy him in WoR except for the prison scenes where I felt Brandon over-played the depression theme. In Oathbringer, I have liked Kaladin within parts 1, 2, and 3 of Oathbringer, but I tend to dislike him in part 4 and most of part 5.
At this point in time, my main beef against Kaladin is how his narrative seems to repeat itself in every book. There never seem to be a learning lesson after events. Kaladin has a blind spot for Moash because he liked Moash and he saw him as one of his own, so he gives him Shards which Moash used to try to kill Elhokar before running away with them. Said Shards now belong to the enemy. Does Kaladin seem to learn from his experience? Not so much, he proceeds into having additional blind spots for the Parshendis he refuses to view as the enemy even when they are directly attacking his men and friends. It is the exact same scenario as with Moash: he refuses to accept someone he likes might stand with the enemy.
Every single one of his oaths seem to have been geared towards increasing his range of protection to include those who need it, not just those he *wants* to protect. In this chapter, Kaladin seems to revert back to his WoK-state where he decides the one person he wants to protect, no matter the reason, trumps the ones who actually need him in the present-day time. Granted, Kaladin does help fight the Fused, his actions are fine, there isn’t much else he could have done, but I wish he’d done it without the whole “I am wasting my time here, Dalinar needs me more”. It’s annoying. He doesn’t readily know this, he’s just trusting some dumb vision which might very well be wrong.
And if there is one thing I dislike in characters is when they act based on visions or prophecies, ignoring the real-world around them. So right now, I dislike Kaladin.
On Rlain: I have no idea what to expect from Rlain. I know some readers are expecting a lot of Rlain in the next book, but given the book structure, I just do not see where those Rlain viewpoints might fit. So I guess we’ll all RAFO.
From the Department of Not Part of This Discussion:
Gepetto, every time the “Damsel in Distress” is mentioned I am reminded of the English costume maker whose web site is called “A Damsel in This Dress”.
Back on topic, are we now taking Storm Father as a trusted voice? Could he still be misrepresenting what happened because he just doesn’t know everything?
I wonder just how many of the Parsh will have their bodies stolen when the Fused bring back all the remaining original fighters?
I could see Tarah coming back and now being berift because her father has been killed in the fighting and Kaladin will have to tell her to be there for the living.
Man, Mythica was a sizable book. In-world, that is. I’m sad that it’s not only fiction but fictional. I want to read the whole thing, storm it! We only get the epigraphed excerpts, which are all listed on Mythica’s Coppermind Wiki entry for easy reference.
That sounds dirty. :-p
Gepeto @10. I believe that the Stormfather identified Gavilar as someone worthy of receiving Honor’s visions. I do not believe that at the time Gavilar died, he was on his way to bonding the Stormfather. At most, Gavilar only spoke the First Oath. It is quite possible he would not have progressed far enough to speak the Second Oath and actually bond the Stormfather. Thus, I disagree with your conclusion that the bond “was transferred to Dalinar” after Gavilar’s death.
We do not know what characteristics Honor the Stormfather. I think the Stormfather had some discretion, but he had a set of ideals or characteristics to look out for. Otherwise, the Stormfather would have sent the visions to anybody and more people would have received them. Imagine if Sadeas or Amaram had received the visions after Gavilar instead of Dalinar.
“History have shown us no man is irreplaceable”. That may be true in RL. However, this is fantasy and there could be an element of fate involved. If it was Dalinar’s destiny, then he is irreplaceable. Some authors rely heavily on the notion of destiny and that certain characters are destined to do this or that. I am not sure how much, if any, of destiny is involved in the Cosmere. There is a lot we still do not know. Did Adonalsium create the Cosmere? Or was there some force or entity that created Adonalsium. I type of higher destiny. Who knows? My point is only we cannot say for certain that there is no concept of destiny. As such, I am not willing to concede that Dalinar is replaceable.
AeronaGreenjoy @18. It would have sounded dirtier if the line was “Tarah knew how to squeeze the most out of Kaladin’s spheres.”
Thanks for reading my musings
AndrewHB
aka the musespren
Umm. Note. Depression isn’t a “theme” with Kaladin, it’s part of who he is. do you have to like him that way? No. but it wouldn’t be true to Kaladin’s character to just forget that it is there.
I suppose in some ways, Kaladin’s fussing over Dalinar instead of seeing who’s in front of him at the moment is all part of what Tarah was trying to say.
@BenW:
Sure, but that doesn’t mean Brandon has to write such repetitive narrative about it. Dalinar spent years as an alcoholic, but I don’t want to read what feels like dozens of story segments that are just, “Dalinar gets drunk and ignores all his loved ones and responsibilities.”
Thinking about it, the “Kaladin is depressed” sections would work better, IMO, if they were from another person’s viewpoint, and also weren’t the “Everyone worships Kaladin” things we tend to get from Adolin. Maybe a Navani segment showing that she’s way more skeptical about him than Dalinar or Adolin.
@19 Andrew: I could be misremembering, but I think there is a WoB which confirms Gavilar was on his way to become a Bondsmith. I recall because prior to this WoB, I used to think no freaking way was Gavilar Radiant material. Turns out I was wrong. Since then, I have concluded there were no reasons why Gavilar wouldn’t have been able to progress given the fact the Stormfather doesn’t seem to care if regular men die to meet the Bondsmith’s goals. He, himself, is a tempest who blows and destroys, so that seems to fit with Gavilar’s personality. He wanted to unite, not divide, but he was willing to kill a lot of people to achieve it. The Stormfather seems not to care how unity is achieved, so long as no oaths are broken.
Hence, taking the fact Gavilar was actually bonding the Stormfather and the fact Dalinar starts getting the visions after Gavilar’s death, then yes, I would argue the bond Gavilar had started forming was transferred to Dalinar when he died. There is also a WoB which states the Stormfather has sent the visions to about 10 people… but he only started bonding Gavilar and then Dalinar. That has been my understanding.
For the rest, I have a personal dislike of the Chosen One trope where one single individual is required to “save the world”, so this may be tainting my opinion. Having admitted this, I would still argue it isn’t clear Dalinar is the prophesied chosen one to save humanity, more so since Brandon tends not to play out those old tropes in a straight-forward manner. Hence, the fact Dalinar has not been the Stormfather’s original choice, the fact the only reason he becomes a Bondsmith is because Gavilar prematurely died (that’s my interpretation) does seem to imply the Bondsmith is replaceable. It would be a hurdle, but not necessarily a death sentence for humanity.
It may be fantasy, but I consider it impossible the “one individual” is the sole one to save the world. There is nothing particularly special about Dalinar (he doesn’t have some genetic magic which is more powerful than everyone else, he wasn’t marked at birth, he’s just a regular man), we have indications a number of other people *could* have been picked and likely ascend too. Dalinar is just… the man the Stormfather chose for the job, it does not mean he is irreplaceable nor that his death would equate the end of humanity nor there would be literally no one to pick up the ball.
That’s why while I understand the heroes want to protect Dalinar, I still do not think it should be Kaladin’s top most priority for his every waking moment when he is physically unable to do so, a fact he does not control. All the while he obsessed over Dalinar, he ignores the ones who actually are with him.
I like Lisamarie’s take on it, it is like with Tarah. Kaladin’s goals are self-serving disguised as altruism. He acts like he genuinely wants to protect/help people, and a part of him really does, but in reality he is mostly doing it for himself more than for they. That’s why he comes across as so self-absorbed, at times, I think. The whole “I absolutely need to protect Dalinar” is not really for Dalinar, it is for him. He wants this task because having this task makes him feel better about himself, but while he feels better about himself, he is blind about what is actually happening around him. He is there, but emotionally, he is not there.
@20: Mental illness is a theme in SA, that’s basically how Brandon phrased it. Yes, Kaladin has depression, it is part of “who he is”. Now, the real hurdle for Brandon will be to manage to get this character to grow and to progress as opposed to remain static because “depression never goes away”.
There is real danger in giving your character a self-defining flaw which is the core focus of large chunk of the narrative they can never overcome nor grow from.
@21: Ah… good point. Yes. Tarah saw it too. Kaladin was more focused on what he perceived as his task than what was right in front of him. The hypothetical young boys he migh save mattered more, to him, then the woman he loved.
In Shadesmar, Dalinar, the man he could hypothetically save from hypothetical danger, mattered more than Shallan and Adolin, his supposed friends. Well, Tarah left Kaladin and good for her to have done so. Who wants to be with a man who thinks you matter less than his co-workers?
I wonder if Shallan and Adolin will end up dropping their “friendship” with Kaladin due to him not really returning the favor, not really giving them any priority, and clearly having more allegiances to his ideal of protection than his “friends”? Granted, I even wonder if the three of them will even have scenes together given how RoW is being structured…
@22: I agree. One of my greatest fears, going into RoW, is Brandon will not succeed in having Kaladin’s narrative not repeat itself. After OB, I felt he had painted the character in a corner and put him in a situation where no growth will come out of him unless we repeat his entire narrative from the starting point. By this, I mean the one where he “loses someone he loves”, had a “hurdle over it”, but eventually overcomes it though not without the numerous “I have depression” chapters to make sure we, the readers, have not forgotten “depression can never heal”. Sigh.
I really fear this. Kaladin already had this arc, I do not think he needs to have it again which is why his character having gone half-static is not good news. I agree we did not need to read Dalinar getting drunk and abuse of his family in a repetitive manner: we were told it happened, that is enough. Now, how the family deals with the truth about his past, that’s interesting, that’s new. Characters who do not glorify Kaladin? Or Dalinar? This would be amazing.
On Adolin: What you say is exactly why I have always felt he does not work out as the “normal guy viewpoint” on the Radiants. He is basically in awe of them, so his perspective is not objective, it is tainted by his natural hero-worships of those he sees as above himself: Dalinar, Kaladin, all the Radiants, and once upon a time, Amaram too. It is a great flaw to have in a character, this naivety, this readiness to think of other as “Gods” while excluding himself, but it certainly isn’t the “normal” viewpoint I want to read on the Radiants.
I agree someone like Navani could offer a good counter viewpoint.
@11
Even if Dalinar wasnt the only candidate at the moment, with Odium on the rise they simply dont have the time to rebuilt what would be lost after Dalinars death.
@18 AeronaGreenjoy
Although not an in world book, I feel like I recall Brandon and Co discussing the possibility of another stormlight handbook or some such to add to the lore and depth. So something for you to look forward to!
@19 AndrewHB
So we have these two WoBs below discussing Gavilar and being a bondsmith. Gavilar was on the path longer than Dalinar, but Gavilar was not actually bonded to the Stormfather.
Ted Herman (paraphrased)
Has Dalinar been on the Bondsmith path for a long time? How about Gavilar?
Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)
Yes to both.
Brandon said that Gavilar had been on the Bondsmith path for longer than Dalinar has been.
Arcanum Unbounded Hoboken signing (Dec. 3, 2016)
Questioner
The visions Dalinar gets in WoK always struck me as odd – you don’t just look at the past, you are able to act within this experience. Now we know that Gavilar was also on the way to being a Bondsmith – was he acting in a different way? Were the visions only basically the same but different in the end depending on the personal reactions? Is this something like a test?
Brandon Sanderson
He did see the same visions. They were the same thing. But… I will say that his reaction to them were very different from Dalinar’s reactions to them. Anyway it was difficult for the Stormfather without a bond to determine/to tell the difference between very easily. When Spren are bonded, they gain a lot more ability to understand the world around then, so you’ll find out soon more stuff about this in the third book.
Leipzig Book Fair (March 24, 2017)
@20 BenW
I agree. Depression is part of who you are. You learn to deal and cope using various resources (most of which Kaladin does not have access to), but it never goes away. It is not a plot point that can be resolved. It is part of the character.
@21 Lisamarie
I agree. We have not gotten to the chapter yet, but I believe Kaladin pushed himself so hard thinking it was all on himself. In the end he needed to let someone else save him for a change, which manifested with Dalinar opening up the perpendicularity, so then Kaladin could pass through and protect him in turn. So among the 100s of fourth oath theories, maybe Kaladin’s is to let others protect him? Got to say Brandon did an amazing set up because its got tons of people wondering what that fourth oath is. Maybe that will be the big moment Brandon always planned for and is excited to now have put it to page in book 4.
@22 Carl
True, though the impression I got from Brandon is that he feels like usually in works mental illnesses are see only as a problem that other people have to put up with. That they are problems, and frequently unfortunately villians. Brandon has said he wants to show that people with mental illnesses (depression, addiction, alcoholism) can in fact be heroes. That usually they are seen from the outside, and that perspective only shows what other people experience. The person who is always a “downer”. The lying addict always looking for his or her next fix. The alcoholic that no one can rely on. Brandon is trying to humanize these people, and remove the stereotypes. Show they have depth, and are more than that. The “downer” is actually fighting a war inside you cannot see. The addict is struggling every second of every day. The alcoholic is overwhelmed and doing what they can to survive. I don’t think we would be able to see and truly understand these experiences from another perspective, because from Brandon has said, all we have seen in literature and movies are those other perspectives. That mental illness is a problem. When instead mental illness is human. Hopefully I used the right words in relating that and did not offend anyone. If I did, I will be happy to edit my post to use alternative words.
edit: As an example. Someone with anxiety tends to be received by others as curt, or random in their emotions. Conversely from the perspective of the person with anxiety, they ran through countless permutations of what was said, and thought on every response, usually focusing on the worse case scenario. That results in their response coming out a certain way, regardless their true intention. I do not think that could be conveyed well from the outsider’s perspective. Going from the person with anxiety’s perspective allows the person to exist, be themselves, but not only be viewed as their anxiety.
Gepeto @1:
Without commenting on the merits of the argument, I just wanted to point out that there’s precedent for this way of looking at things. In Dante’s Inferno, the Ninth Circle of Hell (for the worst of the worst) was devoted to the traitors, with betrayers of kindred, country, and guests in increasing order of condemnation. The innermost part of the Circle consisted of those who betrayed their lords. At the very center of Dante’s vision of Hell were Judas Iscariot (betrayer of Christ) and Brutus and Cassius (betrayers of Caesar) being endlessly tormented by Lucifer, who was simultaneously torturer and tortured as the betrayer of God.
For comparison, murderers, war-makers, plunderers, and tyrants are in the Seventh Circle.
So there is definitely a school of thought where betrayal is the worst thing that someone can do.
So much good info in these chapters. But they’re all kinda hard to read. Everything looks so bleak! Why are we doing all the things! Just in time for it to take an even worse turn so that our heroes can be heroic. It hurts to see all the reactions to the last chapter info on the coalition and especially bridge 4. I love the info we get from the Stormfather, but I think there’s still a little more to it. Though what it is, I’m not sure. Maybe Maya can tell us next book? It feels like we have most of it, but not quite all.
But finally we see Tarah! It seems like she wants the same things for Kal that we do. This forced march through Shadesmar isn’t exactly helping, though he is focused on helping someone who is still alive this time. Poor Shallan though, I’d be right there with her, my own chickens circling, if I had to march like that. Through some Awesome Shadesmar Forest!! (I agree, it sounds like FF.)
As for Venli… she’s literally brought all of this on everyone. From working with Ulim (I think that’s the spren) to get forms of power, she has literally changed the world. And she’s starting to regret a lot of it, I think. Her people completely gone (as far as she knows anyway) and she’s reduced to being a hermit. I think the Fused are afraid of the Listeners, of the fact that they broke off and were able to keep their minds and hide from both Odium and the change that made the rest of the Parsh into mindless slaves. The Listeners know (knew?) something that would let them sit out the fight. I hope we can get some insight into that in Venli/Eshonai flashbacks!!
For anyone who’s interested here’s an interview Brandon Sanderson did with a youtuber. The subject matter came up in it.
@28 Joyspren, I completely missed the importance of why/how the listeners weren’t made into slaves when BAM was captured. They had rejected the “old gods” which I assume means the Fused and Odium. So they must have already withdrawn from the battle before BAM was captured. Of course, turning generations of people into slaves for the “sins of their fathers” is still morally wrong. Other than the current Parsh being angery and appalled over what happened the release of BAM doesn’t seem to have made them instantly evil. There is still more going on than we know.
@24: And what has Dalinar built which wouldn’t benefit from having a leader the world coalition would more readily agree with? Weren’t most of Dalinar’s struggles tied to the fact he spent 30 years of life massacring people left and right which caused nearly no one to want to trust him? Isn’t the coalition fragility tied to the fact no one actually wants Dalinar to lead it?
This brings us back to an old WoB, about Highprinces. Brandon said being a Highprince merely required everyone else agreeing you were one. I think the same applies to the “leader of humanity”: what it takes is for the world to accept you are. So far, the world has not accepted Dalinar, it doesn’t want to readily rally behind him. They might respect his military expertise, but to have *him* lead *them*? They might have ended up thinking they have no choice, but facts are Dalinar is no one’s first choice.
Hence, from my perspective, Dalinar is not irreplaceable. No one is.
@26: Yeah, well, there might be a precedent, but honestly I am humanly incapable of not viewing the burning of thousands of innocents, including children, as not a worse crime than murdering five men for thievery. Both are despicable, this is true, but the later involved no torture. Kaladin’s men died quickly.
They weren’t burned alive.
They weren’t children.
Hence, to me, betrayal or no, what Dalinar did far surpasses what any other character has done except perhaps Gavilar and Sadeas. Therefore, if he is redeemable, everyone is. Including Amaram. The fact Brandon believes burning children alive is a “better” crime than killing five (I don’t remember if they were five, exactly, this seems like the right number) men leaves me literally speechless because there is no doubt, in my mind, which crime is arguably “worst”.
@31 Well there is one thing I definitely agree with you on there is nothing about Amaram that was in and of itself irredeemable.
@Gepeto:
Because the Stormlight Archive is all about mirror reflections, consider that Tarah is doing exactly what Kaladin is himself doing. She’s valuing her father’s safety over her potential happiness with Kaladin. She handles it better, but it’s the same choice.
@33 Carl: I agree about mirrors in SA, but I do not agree with this particular one.
I read the Tarah and Kaladin breakup in a completely opposite manner: Kaladin wouldn’t give away his men for his potential happiness with Tarah. He was unable to prioritize the woman he loved over hypothetical “danger” soldiers he saw as his duty could face. He believes he *had* to be their leader if they were to survive. They *had* to be his responsibility up to a point where he could literally not make any other choices, such as following the woman he loved.
As for Tarah, this was her father. She wasn’t going to leave him alone, he was family. I see her choice as completely different. She chose family. She wanted Kaladin to be a part of this family, but Kaladin wouldn’t let his soldiers without his leadership. He was a squad leader… it isn’t as if the army nor the war would have been lost if he left.
The problem with Kaladin is he always needs to be the one doing the saving, the one leaving, the one in charge, the one doing the protecting. This duty he himself placed on his shoulder trumps every other consideration, but the problem is this duty is often… disproportionate compared to the real needs.
@Gepeto, Kaladin and Tarah are not identical, but it’s the same choice. Why are you privileging fathers over young boys drafted into Amaram’s armies, aside from your personally valuing one over the other?
@35: Because one has duties towards his/her parents, because parents are “family and, in my mind, “family” matters more than random nameless yet to be met hypothetical young boys Kaladin believes he can single-handily protect from warfare. Tarah chose a father she loved she asked Kaladin to make the next move, to come with her, and to marry her. Kaladin refused to leave a bunch of men out of believing only he could lead them into battle. He has no duties towards them. They aren’t family, they aren’t even close friends.
To me what you say would be the real-life equivalent of breaking up with your girlfriend because you refuse to quit your job (while being offered a better one) out of duties towards your work colleagues believing they absolutely need you to keep on functioning. It is those thoughts Kaladin has, this “only I can accomplish things, only I can lead, only I can protect people, and without me, everyone is lost” mindset I chafe against.
Kaladin believes he is considerably more important than he really is. He believes he is irreplaceable. The real-life equivalent is the guy who chooses his work over the woman he loves: a lot of people would say love should matter more.
@32 BenW
Brandon said that Amaram was meant to represent the worse side of Alethi culture. The part that talked about being honorable, and etc, but actually wasn’t. That it wasn’t heartfelt. Genuine. That when Amaram made the choice to kill Kaladin’s squad (and it was a choice he made, Brandon’s words), that it set Amaram on a path away from redemption. As I am working on a post examining Amaram (in my opinion), I intend to write out Brandon’s answer and include it. If you are curious to hear it for yourself, it is I believe at the very very end of Brandon’s Second Live Session. The questioner asked if Amaram was meant to be Dalinar’s FOIL or was the characters inclusion just meant as a source for Kaladin to rail against.
On Amaram: The problem is when Dalinar made the choice of burning Rathalas, as vile and dishonorable action, *that* does not set him away from redemption, but Amaram’s choices, yes.
This is the problem with Brandon’s words: he has decided one character’s decision is irrevocable and condemns him while allowing a worst person a complete redemption after having made an equally vile choice. If it were Amaram’s choice which rendered him unredeemable (as opposed to his refusal to learn from it), then Dalinar, Venli, and Szeth are equally unredeemable. And Jasnah is not far behind.
Hence, Brandon is being inconsistent here. Choices the characters have made in the past NEVER mattered when the time came for them to claim redemption. Except if they are Amaram, then the choice to redeem themselves is being stripped from them: it didn’t matter whether or not Amaram resisted Odium, he was never going to redeem himself no matter which steps he chose to make next. I personally liked how Amaram wouldn’t redeem himself nor change nor accept to live with his guilt, he made an excellent foil, but to state the man had been ripped of any possibility towards bettering himself after he betrayed Kaladin while *Dalinar* of all people is allowed so much leniency, well, I hope I am not the only reader who sees the inconsistency in between both claims.
It is either everyone is redeemable or there is a threshold and if there is a threshold, than Rathalas puts Dalinar way past it. The same applies to Szeth and Venli.
Gepeto:
I couldn’t disagree more with your claim that Bondsmiths grow on trees and can be swapped in and out at the drop of a hat.Yes, Gavilar was on the path – but he was on it for more than a decade without being able to progress even to the First Ideal! Dalinar needed 5-6 years to get to where he was able to bond the Stormfather. And please note, that the Nightwatcher’s Bondsmith hasn’t been found in all that time either, even though the spren more aligned with Cultivation weren’t as opposed to bonding as the Stormfather! Clearly, there are very few people around on the whole of Roshar with the potential to become a Bondsmith.
Ditto with the notion that the Bondsmiths aren’t absolutely essential for the Radiants to act towards a common goal, rather than at cross-purposes. We first learned that the Surgebinders could be more trouble than help from Dalinar’s vision of Nohadon back in WoK and the gemstone archive epigraphs in OB only confirm that the Orders ability to operate as a cohesive whole was borderline with just one Bondsmith. There is zero chance that the new Radiants, who are still very few and have no idea what they are doing in the first place, would have been able to scrape by with none at all!
And then, there is the whole “Honor’s heir” aspect, that allowed Dalinar to bargain with Odium without becoming a supplicant. I don’t say that given time somebody else couldn’t have risen to the same position – but time is exactly what they don’t have. The Fused are here, the Everstorm is here and until the battle of Thaylenah, Odium could project his power and presence to Roshar unhindered. I didn’t find Our Heroes ability to prevail at the end of OB entirely convincing, but there is no doubt that if Dalinar had been killed and couldn’t have provided the Perpendicularity nor trapped the Thrill, they would have been uterly lost. You may not like Dalinar’s importance in the big picture at that point in time – that’s how the books were written by Sanderson.
Concerning Kaladin – wouldn’t the world have been a much greater hellhole if some people hadn’t been selfless enough to help strangers, even at the expense of their own families? Evil triumphs when good people do nothing, but opposing evil has it’s cost and not just to the person doing it..
I didn’t see the exact quote, but is it possible Brandon meant that – given what he knows about the character and his headspace, Amaram is irredeemable not necessarily becuase of his actions, but becuase he personally isn’t the type that will have the introspection/humility required?
@40 Lisamarie
I agree, and that was what I thought I had stated. Guess I muddled it in how I typed. That the choice set Amaram on a path, and his personality (which was what he was meant to represent. The Alethi false honor) is what took him along that path away from redemption. If it helps I will try and type up exactly what Brandon said and post it here.
edit: so I have typed it below. I think I was as accurate and literal as possible. Word for word. I took the below to say Amaram made a choice that day. And being all appearance, he continued on that path, so that by the time we see him later in the books, that path took him very far from any sort of redemption. Conversely the other characters chose to get off that path, and chose another, that then brought them towards redemption. At least that is how I read it. What Brandon said is below
Did you write Amaram as an opposite of Dalinar or was he simply a bad guy meant to spur Kaladin?
So I meant Amaram to be the representation of the corrupt side of the Alethi. Meaning they are all talk and very little heart. Very little of what they say to the worst of the Alethi gets to who they really are. They would rather be known as someone honorable than be actually honorable. And this I consider a major problem with their society and I needed someone to represent them. Someone to, part of it is the represent the contrast to Kaladin’s ideals. This belief that lighteyes were these paragons of virtue. But I also needed somebody, you may say an opposite of Dalinar, in a way he is an opposite to Dalinar, but more he just represents Alethi society. And I did want it to be that he wasn’t just all the way corrupt. When he makes his decision in Book One in the flashbacks he is making a decision. There is a moment where he is considering. By the time you are seeing him and later books, that decision has taken him down a path that leaves him very far from any sort of redemption. But it was a choice. And he wasn’t just corrupt from the getgo. But yeah he represents what I feel would be bad about Alethi society. A kind of honor society that is more about looking honorable than being.
@39: I respect your position, but I do not believe anyone is ever irreplaceable. I can also be argued the reason why Gavilar, Dalinar, and Jasnah progressed so slowly is linked to the fact neither had any idea what was happening in the first place. It is entirely possible a new Bondsmith would progress at a much faster pace. It is also possible other Bondsmiths have been chosen but we simply haven’t met them yet: Roshar is a big place. I mean, I doubt this is the case, but the idea it takes decades to form a new Bondsmith seems a bit extreme when all Radiants aware of what was happening progressed to their third oaths in the matter of weeks/months.
I am also not arguing Dalinar should die, I am arguing Kaladin’s obsession was irritating given the fact there was absolutely nothing he could do for Dalinar here and given the fact Dalinar is already well protected. I did not feel the “urgency to protect Dalinar” in the narrative, I never felt Dalinar was in “grave danger only Kaladin could save him from”, but I felt a growing irritation at Kaladin for neglecting the people around him over this hypothetical task.
As for Kaladin, my issue with his “altruism” is he *has* to be the one doing the saving and the protecting. An alternative mindset would have had him train others to take his place, to have his legacy outlive him instead of always thinking he is the sole individual in the whole world who can do good actions. That’s why it was important he let someone else do the saving in Oathbringer.
On the side note: I tend to find narratives more satisfying when victory is achieved through team work where everyone has a role to play. I often end up disliking the “chosen one” who stand as the “only individual being able to save humanity” in whichever narrative I end up reading. There are times when I feel Dalinar’s story borderlines too much on this specific trope I personally dislike, hence it does make me react more negatively to some narrative aspects than other readers.
An example of a narrative I find more compelling, involving a character somewhat similar to Dalinar, would be Tal’Kamar in the Licanius trilogy.
@40: I can accept that. What bothered me was the idea Amaram’s actions were unredeemable no matter what future choices he turned out making. I agree he never made choices which would lead him towards redemption, but I hated the idea the possibility was removed from him the moment he chose to murder Kaladin’s squad. I mean, I would have no issues to accept this, but this would mean characters such as Dalinar, Venli, and Szeth are equally unredeemable. One rule can’t apply to all characters, but one.
I can however accept Amaram was never going to make the right choices due to his personality and flaws. This makes perfect sense.
@41: Thank you for the quote. I seem to have missed a few words as it does not quite say what I thought it said, so all is good. I can accept the choices Amaram made, starting from the moment he betrayed Kaladin and onward, took him very far away from redemption. This does not imply he couldn’t have made different choices, even after he betrayed Kaladin, to move towards redemption.
I hated thinking Brandon thought this one choice alone bared Amaram from redemption when other characters made equally terrible choices while being allowed to redeem themselves. It felt like a double standard was being applied here.