Well, look at you! You figured out that it’s Tuesday already, and here you are. We’ve got a new chapter of Rhythm of War, which you’ve obviously read, and you’re ready to share your reactions, right? Let’s rejoin Navani, then, and get on with it!
Reminder: we’ll potentially be discussing spoilers for the entirety of the series up until now—if you haven’t read ALL of the published entries of the Stormlight Archive, best to wait to join us until you’re done.
In this week’s discussion there are minor mentions of Nightblood’s past in the Cosmere Connections section, so if you haven’t read Warbreaker and/or Edgedancer, it might not make sense.
Chapter Recap
WHO: Navani
WHERE: Urithiru
WHEN: Day 17 (Sixteen days after testing the Fourth Bridge in battle)
Navani questions Szeth about the newly-recovered sphere Gavilar gave him, then goes to meet Gavinor on the Cloudwalk. After checking in with her science teams, she proceeds to a meeting room, where Adolin and Shallan soon arrive with the Mink, followed by Dalinar.
Overall Reactions
Szeth cradled his strange Shardblade in his lap, the one that leaked black smoke when unsheathed. When challenged about letting the prisoner remain armed, Dalinar had replied, “I believe the safest place to keep the thing is in his possession.”
A: Welp. There’s a lot packed into this short introductory section. Yes, Szeth is in prison. Yes, he still has Nightblood. Yes, this means that he’s imprisoned willingly, since Nightblood is an even better prison-buster than your average Shardblade.
Okay, what it really means is that Dalinar told him to go sit in jail, so there he sits, because his Third Ideal requires him to obey whatever Dalinar says. He seems to be quite willing… as long as he has a LOT of light. This goes back to the previous books, where there were always “voices in the shadows”—in his understanding, the voices of all the people he’d killed.
L: Wait. Are you implying that the voices he was hearing were… light?
A: No, just the opposite… maybe? He hears the voices in the shadows, which is why he wants zero shadow in his cell. No shadows, hopefully no voices. (I’m still more than half convinced that the voices are nothing more than his guilty conscience, but this is the Cosmere, and anything is possible. They might actually be voices from the Spiritual realm. I don’t know.)
In any case, there he sits, with his sword-nimi and light, willing to answer any question asked of him, but unable to anticipate any information the others might need of him.
This includes, most obviously, that weird black-glowing sphere Gavilar gave him back in the prologue to The Way of Kings. The last we knew for sure, from TWoK Interlude 3, Szeth had hidden in it Jah Keved. Fans have been asking about it for years, some even assuming that Sanderson had forgotten about it. Now we know: it’s been there in Jah Keved the entire time, until a month ago when Navani happened to ask just the right question to elicit this bit of information from Szeth:
“I took the sphere and hid it. Until you asked me if I’d found anything on his body, whereupon I recovered it.”
A: I’ll admit to a lot of sympathy with Navani’s frustration. Is he intentionally hiding information, and only providing it when asked a direct question? Or is he so out of touch that it just never occurs to him to mention anything they don’t expressly ask about? With Navani, I incline toward the latter, given the earlier exchange about his Third Ideal. He’ll obey Dalinar’s every word, but it never occurred to him to think about what he’d do if (when) Dalinar died. I can’t help thinking that the years of believing himself Truthless destroyed much of his reasoning ability. He was required to do whatever his owner ordered without question; the strain on any rational mind would be tremendous, and he may have trained his own mind to just stop thinking.
Part of their vision for this tower was a city where the different peoples of Roshar intermixed. With the Oathgates providing direct access to cities around the continent, Urithiru could grow to be cosmopolitan in ways that Kholinar could never have dreamed.
A: This makes me … wistful. I don’t know if they’ll ever get there, because I don’t know what direction Sanderson has planned for The Stormlight Archive, but can you just imagine it? A Roshar where singers and humans of all nationalities are at relative peace with one another, without this millennia-old war going on? A Urithiru where they can freely gather for commerce, entertainment, and mutual benefit? What a vision…
In the meantime, it’s good to see the way in which easier travel via the Oathgates has brought the peoples of the coalition nations together, as displayed by Navani’s stroll on the Cloudwalk.
L: It is a beautiful vision. I’m not sure how feasible it is, but it’s a wonderful idea.
Humans
Others found it encouraging to see the two kings together, but Navani did not miss the gap between them. She knew things others did not. For instance, Dalinar no longer met his former friend beside the hearth to chat for hours. And Taravangian no longer attended private meetings of Dalinar’s inner circle.
They hadn’t been able—nor were they yet willing—to excise Taravangian from the coalition of monarchs. His crimes, though terrible, were no more bloody than Dalinar’s own.
A: Of course, they don’t know about the Diagram… and given that, I suppose it makes sense that while they don’t trust him, they haven’t thrown him out. It’s interesting that they assess his crimes as more or less equivalent to Dalinar’s; to me, it seems like assassinating monarchs and destabilizing nations is on a different scale than clashing armies in a civil war. But maybe that’s just me.
L: Well, there’s that whole “genocide” thing. Dalinar killed women and children, which, even in the scope of war, is pretty damn awful. One could argue that assassination of leaders is a lesser crime.
A: Hmm. I suppose it all depends on how you look at it. The civil war in Jah Keved destroyed a lot of lives and livelihoods, and that’s directly Taravangian’s doing. Come to think of it, though… The monarchs know about the assassinations, but do they know about his responsibility for the Vedan civil war? I’m not sure.
Well, I blame him for those lives. Good thing the Azish Emperor doesn’t actually have any power; the bureaucracy just takes over when he dies, so those assassinations may have created fear, but they didn’t really create the kind of chaos Jah Keved saw.
Navani eyed Adolin’s new gold-trimmed boots. They were the third pair she’d seen him wearing this week. … The room had been set up with a few chairs and only one small table, the one Adolin had his boots on. That boy. He never leaned back in his chair or put his feet up when he was wearing ordinary shoes.
A: Bahahahaha! Show-off.
L: And we love him for it! Or at least, I do.
A: Oh, yes, we do. Hey, look at it this way: people are making a good living off supplying Adolin with fancy boots!
Relationships & Romances
She wished Elhokar had lived to see how wonderful it was becoming. Best she could do was see that his son grew up to appreciate it. So, Navani opened her arms as she reached the meeting point. The nursemaid set Gavinor down, and he rushed over, jumping into Navani’s embrace.
A: This isn’t the first we’ve seen of Navani grieving the loss of her son, but I have to comment on how much I appreciate it. We didn’t see much of her reaction during the climax of Oathbringer, and I think there are a couple of valid reasons for it, both in-world and for purposes of story-telling effect. Personally, I’m okay with that.
L: Yes, for the sake of story-telling and keeping the story short(er) some things just have to be off-screen, but it is really nice to be able to see this now!
A: Exactly. And honestly, this is what it’s really like when you lose someone you love. You get on with life, because life will go on with or without you, but odd little things make you think of how they would react to this or that, and it hurts all over again. It’s over a year now—and this is exactly the setting that would make her long for her son’s company again.
No, she would hold Gav, she would hurt, but she would move forward. She pointedly thought on her wonderful moments holding Elhokar as a little boy, not fixating on the idea of that little boy dying to a traitor’s spear.
A: ::sniffle::
L: Oof. Yeah. This one hurts. Side note, but I am also really happy to see Gav! He seems like he is doing well, after the traumatic events he’s endured. I’m glad for that.
A: Yep. It’s clear from the whole passage that he was in bad shape, but the resiliency of childhood—and the love of his family—has helped him recover. I can’t help wondering if he’ll become a Lightweaver someday, though…
Dalinar passed by, rapping the boots with his knuckles. “Decorum,” he said. “Discipline. Dedication.”
“Detail, duel, dessert…” Adolin glanced at his father. “Oh, sorry. I thought we were saying random words that start with the same sound.”
Dalinar glowered at Shallan.
“What?” she said.
“He was never like this before you arrived,” Dalinar said.
A: Oh, really now? Blame it on your daughter-in-law, but conveniently forget all the other things that happened at the same time? Along with losing Kholinar, seeing his cousin killed, taking a bizarre and dangerous trek through Shadesmar, and helping defend Thaylen City, let me see… Adolin refused the kingship, got married, became a highprince, and learned that his father accidentally killed his mother. And now his relationship with his father has shifted a bit. I cannot imagine how that would happen.
L: It’s a funny quip, but I definitely think there is more beneath the surface, here. As you’ve pointed out, there are a lot of unresolved issues between the two of them that are lurking beneath the surface.
A: Right? Despite his loyalty to his father, it looks to me like Adolin (in all his new roles) is declaring his independence. He may still be Dalinar’s son, but he’s also Highprince Kholin, and he gets to make his own judgments. I can’t quite decide if he’s being subtle or petty about it here; loving Adolin as I do, I want it to be the former, but … how do you push back on the Blackthorn? In any case, Navani understands more than Dalinar does:
Shallan wasn’t pushing him to be something he was not; more, he finally felt free enough to explore an identity that wasn’t tied to being the Blackthorn’s son.
Adolin was highprince now. He should have the opportunity to define what that meant for him.
A: I daresay they’ll sort it out in time.
Bruised & Broken
“Do you hate me?” Szeth asked from behind, calm, almost emotionless. Too calm, too emotionless for words spoken to a widow at his hand.
“Yes,” Navani said.
“Good,” Szeth said, the word echoing in the small chamber. “Good. Thank you.”
A: So, so broken. I was thinking of Szeth, mostly; how much he believes he deserves to be hated by everyone. (Honestly, I don’t entirely disagree with him…) But Navani is also showing some cracks; she hates the man who killed her husband, but does his presence also remind her that she prayed for Gavilar’s death the night Szeth killed him?
L: I pity Szeth. He was “just following orders,” and that’s no excuse, but… maybe, in this case, it IS an excuse. In his society, if children are raised believing that such orders canNOT be denied, then… can he really be blamed for not rebelling against everything he has ever been taught in order to do the ethical thing? Did he even realize that rebellion was possible? It’s easy for us to judge, coming from the societal upbringing and knowledge of history that we have, but maybe the answer really isn’t so easy.
A: I totally agree, Lyn. I kind of hate Szeth for obeying such atrocious orders, but he was stuck between what he saw as two impossible choices. Can he be entirely blamed for obeying the deeply-ingrained tenets of his entire culture?
Navani was furious at Aesudan for all that had happened there—but equally furious at herself. How much was Navani to blame for leaving the woman alone to invite in one of the Unmade?
You couldn’t have known, Navani told herself. You can’t be to blame for everything.
A: On the one hand, it’s human nature to blame ourselves for things we could have stopped if only we’d known things we had no way of knowing. People do that all the time, no matter how unreasonable it is. On the other hand, is Navani taking this too far? We can’t answer that fully, of course, because we don’t know what exactly was happening in Kholinar when Navani left, but if her earlier words are to be believed, Aesudan had a functional administration in place. Unless there were visible problems, there shouldn’t have been any reason for the king’s mother to stay in Kholinar when the king’s wife was the one with all the authority.
Meh. I don’t know if there’s any validity to Navani’s guilty feelings over the mess Aesudan made, or Elhokar’s ill-fated mission to rescue her. We just don’t know enough. Personally, I tend to think she’s still struggling with impostor syndrome. We’ve seen her overcompensate for it by taking personal responsibility for things she should have delegated, and here I think it shows again in her tendency to take responsibility for other people’s choices.
And now I’m going to be inconsistent and point out that, even though as queen she should have delegated more, she’s a rare ruler who knows a lot more about the actual functioning of a society than most would. Because of her personal involvement, she understands the needs of her people, the necessary infrastructure, and the kinds of organization that make for better social interaction. She may be a more effective ruler because of this.
“Gram?” Gav asked as they looked out over the mountains. “I want Grampa to teach me the sword.” … “If I have a sword,” Gav said, “nobody will be able to hurt me. I’ll be able to find the man who killed my father. And I could kill him.
A: Oh, child! Poor little thing. Is this foreshadowing? Will Gavinor end up killing Moash in the second arc? He’d be old enough by then…
L: So… maybe he’s not doing so well, after all. I have to say though, that it’s interesting seeing the cycle of vengeance play out. We saw it in the Rift, and again here. Death begets death begets death, and the cycle of vengeance never ends. Unless someone takes a stand, and says “no.”
A: To be fair, the way Moash is going, there’s a good chance someone else will kill him long before Gav has a chance!
Weighty Words / The Knights Radiant
It was just that… Elhokar had been learning so much. During these last years, she’d seen him growing into something great—a better man than Gavilar, worthy of the kingship.
A: This strikes me as profound, coming from the woman who flatly told Dalinar that it was obvious that Elhokar wasn’t very good at kingship, and that his rule was weak. For her now to think on the growth she’d seen in him, to say he was a better man than his father, becoming worthy to be king… well, she didn’t have many illusions left about Gavilar’s character, but it still fascinates me that she has come to think that Elhokar would have become a far better king. (And yes, sometimes I long for the alternate story—the one where Elhokar got to finish the First Ideal and become both a Knight Radiant and an effectual king. I’ll never get it, but sometimes I wish I could.)
Cosmere Connections
She was in favor of comforting the sick of mind—once they were carefully contained, and things like evil talking Shardblades were removed from their possession.
A: ::gigglesnort::
She had more questions, but she had to budget her time with the assassin. Each moment near him made her feel physically ill; even now her stomach was beginning to churn, and she feared losing her breakfast.
A: Question: Is Navani truly feeling ill because of her knowledge of Szeth’s past actions, as she assumes? Or is it the known reaction to Nightblood—that effect where someone who would not want to use it for evil feels sick to the point of vomiting? She attributes it to being in Szeth’s presence, but since Nightblood is always there too… I just can’t help wondering.
L: Could be a little of column A, little of column B…
What We Missed (In the Timeskip)
In her opinion, they should sink the strange Blade in the ocean, like they’d done with the gemstone that contained the Thrill.
A: Um… yikes? At the end of Oathbringer, Dalinar gave the King’s Drop imprisoning Nergaoul to Navani, asking her to study it carefully—and don’t break it!!—to find out why it can hold an Unmade. Apparently she completed her study, whatever it was, and they… threw it in the ocean? For some reason, this seems like a terrible idea that will come back to bite them eventually. I’d like to at least know that it was encased in about a foot of soulcast aluminum first.
L: I can see why they did it, but… yeah. This is incredibly foolhardy. Incredibly powerful evil things dropped in the ocean/large bodies of water never get found again! (Side-eyes the One Ring)
Geography
…the royal astronomers, who were erecting a new set of telescopes made with the highest-quality lenses out of Thaylenah. They were certain they’d be able to get some spectacular views from up here once the telescopes were calibrated.
A: I find myself envying these people! Incredibly dark skies, with only the light from the lower levels to interfere, and easy equipment transport using fabrial lifts. On top of that, red lighting to avoid disturbing night vision is super easy to come by; just grab a charged ruby sphere or two.
Also, yes, they likely can see Braize and Ashyn quite easily, especially from this elevation, with high-quality lenses and minimal atmospheric distortion. I’d love to know what they look like from Roshar.
Fabrial Technology & Spheres
My final point of the evening is a discussion of Fused weapons. The Fused use a variety of fabrial devices to fight Radiants. It is obvious from how quickly they’ve fabricated and employed these countermeasures that they have used these in the past.
L: Okay, so… we’ve seen the device that stole Kaladin’s power, have we seen anything else?
A: There are the spears that drain Stormlight, like the one Leshwi almost killed both Sigzil and Kaladin with. At least, I assume that would be called a fabrial. Other than that, I don’t remember any off the top of my head. This lecture took place before they saw the garnet thing the Pursuer used in Hearthstone, so there must have been others in play over the last year. (Side note: Navani is right, of course; we saw a few weeks ago that Raboniel claimed the power-suppression fabrial was her design from previous incarnations.)
L: What other types of weapons do you think they might have?
A: I’m hoping our read-along buddies here have some ideas, because I’m fresh out.
The strange sphere that Szeth had provided seemed exactly the same at first glance. Purple upon black, an impossible color. Like the ordinary Voidlight sphere, its blackness expanded, making the surrounding air dim.
But there was an added effect with this sphere, one she hadn’t noticed right away. It warped the air around it. Looking at the sphere for too long was a distinctively disorienting sensation. It evoked a wrongness that she couldn’t define.
A: With the reappearance of the sphere, we can finally hope to learn more about it! For starters, it seems that the color is the same as a normal Voidlight sphere. (Side note, she still hasn’t figured out how to charge spheres in an Everstorm, so they have to steal them from the singers to get any for experimentation. Also, Voidlight charges last longer than Stormlight. Why?)
So what’s the warping effect all about? Any ideas?
Later (without quoting it all), Navani hands the sphere over to a couple of jewelers, who inform her that it’s a near perfect gemstone that would probably hold Stormlight for months or even years, and Voidlight much longer.
L: How convenient, story-wise. ::laughs::
A: Isn’t it, though? LOL. That’s why it can be left in a cave for six years and still glow.
Now we’re left with a bit of a cliffhanger, as Navani authorizes them to study it and do some experiments—including trying to power fabrials with the light. Hmm. Any guesses on how this will play out? And one last note:
I don’t know what that is, Brightness, [Rlain] had said. But it feels painful. Voidlight is dangerously inviting, like if I touched it, my body would drink it in eagerly. That thing… is different. It has a song I’ve never heard, and it vibrates wrong against my soul.
A: So poetic, and so perilous. “It vibrates wrong against my soul.” As a figure of speech, it’s beautiful—but for Rlain, it’s quite literal, and it sounds eerie.
L: Yeah, this thing gives me all sorts of bad feelings. I get the distinct impression that it’s going to play a huge role in the story down the line.
“Wait. The barometer rises ahead of a storm?” … “That’s… backward, isn’t it?”
A: And yes, that is backward. The barometer should drop before a storm. They interpret this, probably correctly, as the tower-fabrial preparing for the arrival of a highstorm. What else will this place do, if they can ever get it functioning?
Well, that’s it for our commentary today. We’ll be leaving the speculation to you in the comments, so have fun and remember to be respectful of the opinions of others!
Alice is highly amused by the recent developments regarding Dawnshard, the novella that grew up to become a novel in its own right, and is still anticipated to release to Kickstarter backers by the end of October. Everyone else will get it in early November, to ease the stress of those last couple of weeks while waiting for RoW.
Lyndsey is missing her faire family dearly. In these bylines, she’ll be giving some shout-outs to fellow local performers or vendors who could really use the support. This week, check out the Roving Corsairs . If you’re an aspiring author, a cosplayer, or just like geeky content, follow her work on Facebook or Instagram.
Dear old Navani
Really appreciate these read-alongs and the conversations that come out of them. Usually I read at the end of the day but realized that if I ever have questions its too late to post then so I’m coming in first thing. I was one of the people wondering about the whole debate over whether or not it was appropriate to ‘command’ Yunfah to “consider” bonding Rlain. I understand where people who thought it was wrong to command him were coming from but I also understand the other side of the argument.
I take the point about Rlain refusing, I think its his right. Though the parallels to our society and the prejudice that led people being blocked from most opportunities based simply on their race and skin color are impossible to ignore. It took acts of law to end desegregation for example. In this case, Rlain has the character for this role and is more than qualified, why shouldn’t the Radiants (paragons of righteousness) similarly mandate that this sort of prejudice in their spren partners is unacceptable? Again, I felt it was clear that they don’t have to bond, they simply have to consider each other – perhaps that could’ve been handled with more sensitivity by Kaladin but why tolerate prejudice?
Further, and perhaps more importantly, I wanted to ask what was the difference between this and Wyndle being commanded by “The Ring” to bond with Lift (“reminds her that the Ring chose him for the *atrocious duty* of bonding with her as her spren”). He clearly did not want to enter the bond but since being forced in has come to appreciate and respect Lyft in his own way. The Stormfather also didn’t want to bond Dalinar, he was quite unhappy but compelled by some ancient directive. Again, since the bond, his prejudices and ill feelings about humans are dissipating as he learns more and grows as a result of this bond.
So while I suppose I can hypothetically see why people are uncomfortable, I’m having trouble seeing the difference between Yunfah, Wyndle and the Stormfather. If anything, Yunfah was the only one of the three who maybe had some wiggle room to say “we actually don’t get along” whereas the other two had zero choice.
Nicee
(Warbreaker references)
I don’t know about everyone else, but the first thing I thought when that sphere showed up was some kind of corrupted Breath, like what Nightblood emnates. It “warps the air” and seems very similar in appearance to Nightblood’s smoke.
Lyn, the ring was lost in a river, very shallow. A simaril was lost at sea and never found. Sando isn’t Tolkien. But being lost at sea has slightly better precedent for being truly lost, especially for radiant gems (which is what simaril means in elvish (sorry I don’t know which dialect))
“evil talking swords” oh Navani, I’m glad the sword sickens you. But you should still try to become friends. Maybe you’d learn a thing or two about your ardentia.
I think that her delegating that gem will have consequences. Sando has built up her “I’m not a scholar” so much that it is now a hurdle for her to overcome, and she won’t overcome it until she sees scholars fumble. But why must it be with an unmade?
That end is so frustrating, can’t wait for next week.
Pretty clear the sphere is a trapped fused.. Wonder what they can learn from it! Maybe Gavilar trapped it on his missions to their home.
Calling it now… Szeth’s stone holds an Unmade which I am VERY worried they will release in trying to inspect it
So, we know that the Thrill, Nergaoul was contained in a perfect Ruby – And that it caused the Thrill, a loss of self-mastery in battle, leading to berserker type action. And we know that rubies are the gems for Dustbringers. In the 10th anniversary Way of Kings Kickstarter, a bunch of swag was shown, including coins and patches for each order with a single line summing up that order, with lines like ‘I will protect’ for Windrunners, ‘I will seek my Truth’ for Lightweavers and ‘I will unite’ for Bondsmiths. The line for Dustbringers was ‘I will seek self mastery.’
This ties into the recurring theme we see, of opposite sides of the same coin. Nergaoul removes self mastery, and was contained in the gem of the order that seeks self mastery.
Gavilar’s sphere, which many of us suspect contains an Unmade, is revealed in this chapter to be a diamond. This would lead me to infer, if this is an Unmade imprisoned within a perfect gem, then it would be the Unmade that counters and opposes the Edgedancers. And, as we have already seen Ashertmarn, Moelach, Nergaoul, Re-Shephir, Sja-Anat and Yelig-Nar in the world, either by actual presence, or by area of effect – this leaves us with some speculation ability for which of the remaining three could be contained here, and what it is that they do that is in opposition to the Edgedancers.
So, Chemoarish, Dai-Gonarthis and Ba-Ado-Mishram. Which of these is most likely to be the anti-Edgedancer? I’m putting my money on Dai-Gonarthis – we know little about the Black Fisher, other than the one death quote “Let me no longer hurt! Let me no longer weep! Dai-gonarthis! The Black Fisher holds my sorrow and consumes it!” But that sounds to me like the opposite of remembering and listening.
I’m putting my money on that sphere containing Dai-Gonarthis, and for the love of all things, please don’t let anyone draw the light out of that thing!
One of the things that’s sucker-punching me during my re-read of previous books and during these chapters following Navani’s prologue is her insistence that she’s “not a real scholar”. Her distancing from them, her repeated protestations that she’s not a real engineer, she just pays the real ones, all seems to stem from Gavilar’s treatment of her. That was what he accused her of in the prologue and that attitude has clearly sunk in deep.
Navani still bears the scars from Gavilar’s emotional abuse and I really hope she’s able to find an outlet for them. She’s tried expressing it to Dalinar before and he asked her to stop, as he didn’t want to hear anyone speak badly of his dead brother, but how awful for Navani.
Other than that I enjoyed this chapter. It’s nice to see Navani take centre stage/watch things from her perspective. It’s usually refreshing/offers different insights into the other characters and dynamics around her.
Seeing Navani in the role of “Gram” was both sweet and incredibly painful. I completely understand why she blames herself for Aeseudan – she was technically supposed to be in Kholinar to keep an eye on her, but left in large part because of how ostracised she was. Which I’m not at all condemning her for, I can imagine what it must have been like, but it’s easy to see where the guilt comes from.
I wonder if Jasnah has similar, but more brutal, feelings re: “if only I’d had her assassinated”…
So Urithiru is only MOSTLY dead then – it’s still ‘sentient’/functional enough to regulate itself to prepare for storms. Interesting. I wonder if it’s done that the entire time or if this is a newer thing as it “wakes up”.
I agree that chucking the Thrill into the sea feels like a REALLY bad idea. On the one hand I suppose it’s harder to get to but…well we know Radiants with stormlight don’t need to breathe. If Voidlight works the same way the Fused could hunt for it. And what about in Shadesmar, where the sea will be solid land? All in all this feels like a very bad plan.
And finally, Szeth. I just really hate Szeth tbh. I think as a character he’s absolutely fascinating, but I have no pity for his Oathstone induced murder rampage. When Navani accused Dalinar of guilt being a selfish emotion, that applies in spades to Szeth. He had a choice. And yes it was deeply ingrained in his culture that he had to obey the Oathstone, so he grew up with that. But it was a selfish decision. He continued to obey for his own ‘honour’, as established in previous books, he murdered countless people and used his guilt over their deaths as a form of self-punishment. It was selfish in the extreme. Personally I condemn Szeth more than Dalinar or Taravangian. They both had a greater purpose behind what they did (whether it was a good one or not is debatable). Szeth’s purpose was “It’s my punishment to be used to murder people so the more I kill the more I suffer for my crime of being Truthless.” That was why he did it, his purpose was entirely selfish.
I think it’s also worth noting, because people (in the books and out) infantalise Szeth a LOT. He’s nearly 40 years old!! This is not someone who did these things at like 15. He was at least 30ish when he murdered Gavilar. He’s a fully grown adult, and always has been, and I think that gets skated over too much.
@2 totally agree with you here
All i could say was “oh-crap” once I read that Navani gave the black sphere to her scholars and asked them to transfer the light… And was contemplating having a radiant draw out the light from the sphere.
Anyway, while my favourite guess is that the sphere will turn out to contain an Unmade (the perfect gemstone is strong evidence), there must be a reason why Navani didn’t recognise it as one, especially having studied Nergaoul. Perhaps the black sphere really does look different from a trapped Unmade? Maybe Voidlight from Braize is different from Voidlight from the Everstorm (Rlain mentioned feeling pain, which ties into Braize being Damnation/the place of torture)? Can’t wait for this Chekov’s gun to be fired!
@8 I don’t know why that didn’t click with me after the chapter a couple weeks ago, it makes a ton of sense. It couldn’t possibly just be voidlight, and they’re too small, and Gavilar had too many, for them to be Unmade…but Fused? Suddenly it all makes sense. Gavilar was talking about ‘their gods’, who do the Listeners consider their gods? His discussion with the Heralds in this book’s proglogue, about the Connection with Braize and them having brought something back from there? The Fused themselves making it clear they’re worried they can be trapped(though they don’t appear to be aware some already have been?)?
I think you hit the nail on the head on this one.
Was anyone else reminded of Mass Effect and the Rachni when Rlain said “It has a song I’ve never heard, and it vibrates wrong against my soul.”
I love Navani chapters, but in some ways she’s a character after my own heart. I was once a scientist who wasn’t really quite good enough to be a scientist (although it is definitely possible she IS good enough if she had the time/confidence) but still the interest in it. (Also, her thoughts of Elkohar as her little boy hit me right in the feels).
I really want to learn more about the voidlight (but not really) gems. Were the ones that Gavinor and Eshonai had different gemstones?
I find Szeth frustrating – I don’t hate him per se, but I hope he at least learns to think for himself. There’s something very maddening about somebody who just offloads all of their reason and accountability.
I think there is definitely something going on with Adolin and Dalinar and I’d love an Adolin POV. I think this also confirms there’s some tension with him and Shallan since I don’t know that her fascination with Mink is completely approved of by Adolin (which, I understand why…). Nothing they can’t work though, but it will be interesting to see where it goes.
My first thought at the Thrill gem being dropped in the sea was of a similar plot in WoT where the thing did NOT get dropped in the sea as planned. Plus while realistically it wouldn’t be found, can you really say that a hundred or a thousand years from now somebody wouldn’t find it? I don’t know, it just seems risky to me.
Mink’s rejoinder the Dalinar was a sick burn that I felt accomplished a lot of things; told him to stop criticizing his son/daughter in law and just appreciate them, and also another jab at his own past. I like the Mink, honestly, heh.
Navani doesn’t realize that throwing Nightblood into the water is not very helpful.
SPOILER: See Warbreaker.
Navani here is pulling a Kaladin, feeling responsible for things she couldn’t control and wasn’t in charge of.
I am working from the assumption that Nightblood makes her nauseous. Which is a sign that she is a good person. (Surprise!).
@Slow: the difference between Wyndle or the Stormfather being forced to bond, and Yunfah/Rlain is (to me) very simply that Rlain, who lived as a slave for years, is less willing to tolerate it than those other entities. Notice that Syl also has no special problem with it.
This was a delightfully great chapter, I absolutely loved it. My major critic will be it was too short! I wanted to read what happened next. Damn read-along.
First stop, Szeth who, after a short redeeming bout in Oathbringer, has fallen out of my graces. What an infuriating, dim-witted half-crazed man! I wholeheartedly support Navani in feeling ill-at-ease with him and for believing this man shouldn’t be left with a weapon. Heck, he shouldn’t be a Radiant as great powers come with great responsibilities while Szeth has proven he couldn’t endorse them. He readily gave his loyalty to Dalinar, vowing to blindly obey to him, something no one should ever do, and yet, he can’t pass down important information unless pester endlessly to do so.
On another scope of ideas, I did appreciate Sanderson bringing in the concept that not all broken souls can be restored and some people are just dangerous. Yes, mental illnesses can make some people be indeed very dangerous because they lack any moral compass. Szeth strikes me as a man who doesn’t have a proper moral compass, hence he would fall into the category of dangerous people unless he can sort it all, but I unsure if I want him to.
Second stop, Gavinor. That was cute. I was really pleased to keep tabs with the little guy, to see how he is doing though I don’t get why he wants Dalinar to teach him the sword and not Adolin who’s, and by far, a better swordsman. I worry about him though, so young and so full of vengeance…
Third stop, Dalinar and Taranvagian. Of course, Dalinar disclosing his worst secrets had for consequences he has no ground basis to trial nor to exclude other vile conquerers. Taravangian did no worst than Dalinar: that should put a few things in perspective. It was great to witness the Kholins realizing they were in the wrong of it if only by comparing their actions to another warfare they had nothing to do with. I felt for the Kholins soldiers who lost their pride. I wonder if this will play a role later on.
Fourth stop, Adolin. That boy. I so loved it. I love insolent rebellious Adolin though I think he is over-compensating for something with all his expensive buys. This isn’t trivial. He wouldn’t have done this before. He is clearly reacting. I so love the Dalinar rude comment to Adolin: he disapproves of his son’s behavior and he wrongly blames it on Shallan. I can’t believe how blind Dalinar is to see he is the problem, not Shallan. He feels he lost his tight control over his son and he does not like what he sees.
I do not think Adolin is trying to be petty, I think he is just… reacting. He lost control over everything he held dear, he can’t do anything against his father’s past, he is forced to live with it, he can’t even express himself against it, so he focuses on what he can control. His clothes. His behavior. He is acting like a hurting teenager trying to get attention, any attention, but seeking it in a bad manner. The real-life equivalent would be a teenager who dressed provocatively in a manner the parents would disapprove just to have them react. Yes, I used the term teenager despite knowing Adolin is not one, but he is behaving like one in this scene (waste of money on useless clothing, feet on the table with the intent to provoke). And when teenagers act this way, they might be defiant, but usually, it also means they are hurting or trying to express something to people who aren’t listening. I would thus argue Adolin is not “coming into his own”, not yet: that’s just what Navani thinks is happening, it does not mean she is right. Adolin strikes me more as a half-lost kid who doesn’t know who to be nor how to express his discomfort, so he does it with his behavior. And Dalinar reacts the same as most parents: he disapproves of it and he blames the “outside influence”, in this case, Adolin’s wife.
And last, Shallan and the Mink… Oh, I see perhaps the beginning of jealousy? Adolin already said he worries over Shallan’s faithfulness given how interested she was in other men… and Adolin thinks little of himself. Could this be foreshadowing for some trouble later on or will the Mink just conveniently show Shallan how to move out of manacles to allow her to do it later on?
Side note: the Mink’s son and son’s wife were killed in the Alethi wars. Oups.
@Gepeto:
Because Brandon is setting up Dalinar’s remembering the last small, vengeance-obsessed boy he knew: Tanalan Jr. Adolin never met either Tanalan.
The Mink isn’t showing Shallan how he escapes because he is using supernatural means, obviously. You can’t just wiggle out of (well fitted) metal manacles, they’re rigid. Is he using the Surge of Tension? That makes him a Stoneward, if he’s a Radiant. That’s an order we haven’t seen yet, and the order of front-line soldiers, which fits.
(Yes, I am discounting the idea that he’s a Bondsmith.)
I think the dark sphere is from another system. Anything connected locally would not have given Rlain bad vibes. Even an unmade would be somewhat harmonious with the local natural rhythms. Same with A Fused – is frequency wouldn’t be off for him.
We know Gal and the gang were plotting off-world ventures and some have even suspected, Investature trade. Perhaps the perfect sphere is manmade or naturally occurring from another system? Either way, they know how to transport some things, they just haven’t figured out distance and connections to other systems. I suspect the earlier content that maybe this is a Breath somehow stored. But we do know it arrived before the everstorm. Plus, with a magnifying glass, they saw nothing but the smoky substance, which to me sounds like pure power, not a being forming patterns or showing movement.
Adolin’s behaviour is pretty disgusting. I can’t believe he’s 25 (27 or so, Rosharian age)
He acts like immature spoiled child.
@20 Saitame. Adolin never had his teenage years: he spent them being strong for everyone, caring for a father who lied to him, being the parental figure for his sick kid brother. He never got to become his own person and, recently, everything he believed in was turned upside down. The father he spent his life idolizing is nothing else but a hypocritical fraud who has been emotionally manipulating him for years with his lies. So yes, his reaction is to misbehave, to try to get this cold, distant father’s attention. He still loves Dalinar and the conflict between this love and the truth is making him over-react.
Hence, he tries to express himself using the means he has: clothes, behavior, lack of respect. He behaves exactly like a teenager growing up un a strict environment often turns out behaving. And yes, he no longer is a teenager, but he is having this phase, right now, in her early twenties which is far from being unheard of. Often, those who had too many responsibilities at a too young age will see their emotional growth stunt and will go through phases at a later time.
Adolin is this kid. He had way too much to shoulder on in his younger years, now he found out he did it for the wrong reasons, he does not know how to reconcile the truth with the fact he still loves his father. So he acts out. He is not being spoiled, he being rebellious which is very different: Adolin does not demand more things for himself, he is just trying to get daddy to react to him.
Also, Adolin is 24. He was 22 early in WoK. Readers always make him older than he is. He’s actually a young man with limited life experience who skipped over his teenage years.
He isn’t a kid. He’s almost 30 year old grown ass man who acts like child. Not a pleasant read.
As soon as I realized what Navani was looking at, I started squealing “Black sphere! Black sphere! Black sphere!” loud enough to scare the cat.
So Sword-nimi used to talk to people passing by the cell, did he? I wonder what he said. And what they made of it.
I just finished rereading Lord of the Rings, so I, too side-eyed dumping the Thrill into the ocean.
I admit, my first reaction to Adolin snarking at Dalinar was “Well, Gepeto is going to be happy this week.”
Alternative theory about what’s trapped in the purple black stone. The Sybling?
I honestly believe a major plot point for this book is going to be Navani and Raboniel fighting for the soul of the tower, home alone style. Fabrics versus fabrial. With the remnants of the Sibling in the balance.
And unless I am super far off considering the kickstarter artwork for the Bondsmith I’d wager Navani bonds with the Sibling and revitalizes the tower.
Every time Dalinar and the Mink get together the Mink sends a punch straight to Dalinar’s nuts. I ooph everytime.
Dalinar and that storming book is making his life super hard right now. His troops have trouble finding pride and purpose in their work, his son kinda hates him, his fellow coalition members look at him askance, he’s forced to keep around undesirable people or risk being outed as a hypocrite. And yet I see it as following Cultivation’s playbook. Get the bad information out now when the crisis point isn’t quite there, give people the time to come to terms with it, thus leaving them able to perform without hesitation when the crisis does inevitably arrive. No secrets are gonna bite him in the backside this time.
Good catch y’all about Navani’s nausea being related to Nightblood.
It’s so heartbreaking to me about Navani’s insistence that she is not a scholar. I really want her to overcome her trauma and believe in herself. But the way it continues to be revisited seems like a cluebat to me. It’s consistent with the way Sanderson indicates that a character is about to acquire a spren and start cookin on some Oaths. So which one do we think she’ll get? The Sibling or an Ashspren? Those are my two likely candidates, assuming she doesn’t pick up an Unmade by mistake.
I’m excited that after so many many years we may finally find out what those black spheres truly are.
Speaking of eldritch creatures trapped in gems, I’m glad I’m not the only one worried about the Thrill lost at sea. Based on the rules of storytelling, Nergaoul will almost have to make a reappearance right? Usually at a time of maximum inconvenience for our protagonists? Seems a safe bet. Only good thing is if the bad boy gets free now, people will recognize it for what it is instead of mistaking it for something natural.
@16 / @carl – To clarify, I wasn’t talking about Rlain’s POV, it’s his right to accept or reject help, even if its someone trying to right a wrong (plus he’s fictional so…). I was more curious about why fellow readers were so uncomfortable. Alice, Lyn and others had very strong responses to this part which like I said, I can understand, but then was wondering if they felt the same way about Wyndle (who calls being forced to bond an “atrocious” duty) and the Stormfather (who hates humans more than Yunfah hates Listeners because to him they betrayed and killed his children – Syl’s even said he hates humankind I believe).
Again, I’m not disagreeing, I’m just wondering why the two scenarios are different to other readers.
Thanks @11, glad you were able to understand where I’m coming from.
Not really: A storm essentially sucks in air at low altitudes and spews is out at high altitudes. If Urithiru is at altitudes where a storm would spew the air back out, then the pressure would rise during a storm (not considering the pressure drop due to Bernoulli’s principle). The simultaneous relative low pressure at low altitudes and relative high pressure at high altitudes is possible because the storm contains relatively hot air of low density (throughout its vertical column), thus the pressure difference between low and high altitudes is less than in the surrounding areas.
That being said, a highstorm does not appear to follow the normal physics of a storm, so all bets are off.
@22 Adolin is not 30 years old. He is a lot closer to 20 than 30. The Earth equivalent years is just a fandom quirk, it is not relevant to the actual books. A lot of readers just do not care about details that aren’t in the books nor directly relevant to the books, hence by all means Adolin is exactly who the narrative says he is. A young man in his early twenties and he behaves like one: he can sometimes be mature, but other times, he isn’t. He is called “boy” and “kid” all through those books. I find 24 years old is still pretty young and definitely not “grown-up”, at least, not entirely. Also, yes, young adults can have late rebellious phases. They can have emotions, issues: not all people above the age of 20 morphs into emotion-less robots who never have the impulse to act out. You don’t just magically hit a moment in your life where all your issues disappear, where you no longer need attention, where all is fine and you rationally act the proper way. This never happens.
Life is not a straight line. Right now, Adolin is rebelling against Dalinar. Yes, he is acting like the teenager he never was. Yes, Dalinar isn’t getting it. Yes, it is a plea for attention and I have loved reading every word of it.
it wouldn’t have been realistic for Adolin not to react to Dalinar’s past nor to go full-blown evil over it: he acts as he can. Wild. Insolent. Rebellious.
And it will cause problems. I can’t wait to read what it will be.
I am sorry you hate the chapter, it was one of my favorites.
Brandon Sanderson has said Adolin is 27 and I will trust the author.
The chapter is ok but Adolin’s behaviour is disgusting. For me this is unacceptable.
Gepeto @21: Wow. Really harsh on Dalinar. I’m just going to say I don’t agree with your extreme view of the character and leave it at that.
Re: Rlain and the sphere: I don’t think it’s an unmade, nor a Fused. I think the reason Rlain doesn’t recognize the rhythm is one of two things (or both):
1) the diamond is NOT from Roshar. The ardents say, “This wasn’t grown as a gemheart, I can tell you that. The structure would never align so perfectly.” I am going to make a stand and say this diamond definitely did not come from Roshar.
2) This one I don’t know yet. As was stated, Rlain should definitely still recognize the rhythm of a Fuzed, and should recognize the rhythm of an Unmade. So even the substance in the sphere might be from off planet. Unless the off-planet gem masks the rhythm somehow, I don’t see how it could be a Fused or Unmade.
I had forgotten about Nightblood and the idea of throwing it into the ocean! Yeah, that probably wouldn’t work unless the water was REALLY deep. But, knowing Nightblood, it would still find a way to get some sort of creature to haul it to shallow water or dump it on a beach somewhere.
I’m the map, I’m the map, I’m the map, I’m the map, I’m the MAP!
@30 Sanderson is not good at memorizing all of those small details. The book states Adolin’s age. We see when he is born in OB with the timeline: 23 years prior to the present day. There is the official timeline that marks his birth too. Adolin is 22 in WoK. He turns 23 sometimes early in WoR and angst over not having found a wife now he is 23. Now he is 24. He was never 27 even with the Earth conversion calculations he never was 27 and even if he were, so what? He’s still a rather young man who’s going through a phase most people have at a younger age.
Sanderson is also notorious for getting small details wrong in questioning such as his own characters’ age. He got Kaladin’s age wrong too at some point. He often gets his timeline wrong. He commented on this: that’s why he’s got people to keep track of those for him. He concentrates on the story, those are details: his team gets those right for him.
For the rest, I find it narratively incredibly interesting and I find Dalinar’s behavior for more aggravating, but to each our own. I love Adolin, I talked years ago of him having a delayed teenage rebellion phase because this is how I had read the character. Seems like I wasn’t too far off after all.
@31. Cocchino. Which extreme view? Did Dalinar lie to Adolin yes or no? Did he lie about why he was drinking yes or no? Did those lie ended up shaping Adolin into being far more accommodating than he should have been? The answer is yes on all accounts.
Dalinar did a bad thing. His son reacts.
I was very happy with this chapter on multiple levels. I like to see the broad overview of things – culture, characters, in-progress developments etc. I also particularly liked to see interactions between various major characters in more ordinary situations – I felt this was sorely lacking in Oathbringer. Not just interactions but perspective and analysis too. I hope we get future chapters with interactions between major characters, more to explore how they see each other and can learn from each other or simply to give a different perspective.
Side note on the meeting: while Kaladin was involved with rescuing the Mink, he’s not here – because he wasn’t invited or because he didn’t want to come? I’m also guessing this is the meeting that will lead to Shallan suggesting the trip to Lasting Integrity.
I might be completely wrong but when I read this:
It feels like it could be related to this from chapter 15:
I’m not suggesting that the gem could be used to perma-kill Fused immediately but it could be a step towards that. Talking of that gem, presumably its properties are not like the gem holding the Thrill Unmade, else Navani would have noticed. I’m not sure if this means we can 100% discount this gem from Galivar holding an Unmade though but it does edge things in that direction.
Regarding the changes in Adolin, it does feel like a nod to this WoB:
There does feel like a large element of “rebellious teenager” in there too, as suggested by Gepeto @@@@@ 17.
I’m not sure Dalinar’s perspective is 100% wrong either. I suspect that Shallan has been somewhat snarky to Dalinar during the last year since that’s partly just how she is and also because she doesn’t like authority figures. Dalinar would probably struggle against Shallan’s style of word-play and this might have impressed Adolin.
On another note: we’ve not seen too much of Shallan’s wit so far in RoW and this chapter felt like more of a return to the sorts of things Shallan would say in early books. And yeah, I wouldn’t be surprised if she picks up some tricks from the Mink. And I’m also sure that the Mink will be a useful character to have around if/when the Fused attack and take-over the place.
@Saitama
What type of reaction do you expect Adolin to have? He’s idolized his father his entire life. That feeling never truly goes away even if you find out later that the person isn’t quite deserving of the idolation. He knows he couldn’t kill him, not capable of it either emotionally (cause he still loves him) or practically (he’s a normie, Dalinar as Radiant would mop the floor with him even without a blade). Nor can he really keep much distance, he has a responsibility to his people and his home is occupied. So he’s trying to reassess his life and determine what parts of himself he should keep and which he should discard. Maybe you think he should just be stoic and just forget about it, keeping the greater good in mind. It doesn’t work that way, even for adults. And don’t forget he’s doing this in the midst of an apocalypse and has marriage problems. I find his reactions in keeping with what we know of Adolin and actually quite reasonable considering how he could have reacted. Remember Sadeas. Going berserker is certainly something within his wheelhouse.
Slow @2 & 27 Re: spren being ordered or coerced to form a bond – The big difference between Yunfah and Wyndle, for me, is who was doing the ordering. Wyndle was ordered by spren leadership (we’re not entirely sure who the Ring is, but my assumption is that it’s the ruling group of the cultivationspren) to bond Lift because of what Cultivation had done to her. There was a very strong reason for a cultivationspren to bond her, and at this point Wyndle was one of the few who was willing & able to do so. He grumbled about her personality, but he did it, because he was obeying those with actual authority over him.
So far as we know, Kaladin – a human with no authority over spren – ordered Yunfah to try bonding Rlain just because he wanted Rlain to become a Windrunner. It’s not a bad motivation per se, but he has no real authority to do it, and Yunfah has no reason to obey it other than his desire to stay in the Physical realm. I’d have been much, much happier with Kaladin’s order, even as an order, if he’d straight-up said that he wanted the spren to try to break through the species barrier for the purpose of uniting the humans and singers against Odium. (Note that I’m not objecting to the way Sanderson wrote it; it’s right for the story being told.)
Gepeto @17 – In general, I’m in agreement with everything here. Just wanted to clarify one small point. When I suggested Adolin was perhaps being petty, I meant exactly what you’re saying – acting like a teenager being rebellious in stupid little things. Does he still feel trapped in the “Blackthorn’s Son” identity, and he’s doing trivial things to flail against it and just be rebellious? Or is he truly getting more independent in his own self, and he’s subtly using small things like clothing and decorum to get Dalinar to see that as an adult and a highprince, there are certain areas over which his father has no authority? It could be either. It could be both.
In any case, I’ve concluded that both Dalinar and Navani are right, though possibly in ways they don’t realize. It looks to me like Shallan’s love and support of Adolin probably is helping him to step out of the Blackthorn’s shadow, but the whole thing involves a lot more factors than Dalinar is willing to acknowledge.
Saitama @20 & 22 – Adolin is 24 and a few months in Roshar years, just barely 27 in Earth equivalent.
Will have to catch up with the rest of the comments later…
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I’m also going “yikes” at the thought of throwing the King’s Drop in the ocean, but for a reason that no one’s mentioned here yet: don’t they know what oceans are like in Shadesmar? They definitely do know about the land/sea inversion, because they’ve got people who’ve been there. But it appears that they haven’t thought the ramifications through: the reflection of that gemstone is now sitting on top of a big pile of dry land somewhere in Shadesmar, containing a very powerful, very evil spren. It would practically be a beacon to anyone who knows what to look for. It will most likely take the voidspren approximately no time at all to find it and figure out precisely where it is in the Physical realm…
Amaram was a hypocrite. He professed to be this model, honorable guy, when he really wasn’t.
Dalinar is not a hypocrite. He has spent years living the ideals that he preaches. A hypocrite is “do as I say, not as I do.” Dalinar is “do as I do.” If he were a hypocrite, he would never have written that book. Rather, he would have sought to keep his past hidden.
Dalinar made a lot of mistakes in life, but he has never asked anybody to ignore that. He gets a lot of flack for the Rift, as well he should. But he IS the man who spared the son. And I fully believe that is WAS Sadeas who orchestrated the rock slide that nearly killed Dalinar, because Sadeas DID want either the Blackthorn to do something extreme or get him out of the way. Dalinar DID call off the slaughter, because he felt the message had been sent. Sadeas had taken steps to make sure it couldn’t be stopped.
Dalinar was manipulated by Sadeas. That doesn’t exonerate him by any means. He still did give the order. But there were also steps he took even as a young man to spare people and not carry things to extremes.
In my book Sadeas is MORE responsible for the death of Evi because it was Sadeas who made sure the people couldn’t escape.
If we had a Sadeas, or an Ialai viewpoint for the events at the Rift, I bet I would be proven right.
@36 EvilMonkey I agree. How else was Adolin supposed to react? He is reacting using the means he has: he is being rebellious, on purpose because this is the only means of expression he has left. I do think his reaction is, in part, caused by him not being able to reconcile loving Dalinar with what he did, so he acts out.
It is such a typical behavior.
@37 Alice. Adolin is being rebellious over the little things he can control he knows will purposefully aggravate his father. This is exactly the same behavior a teenager would have by getting a piercing they know the parents won’t approve of, wearing clothes the parents will hate, dye their hair a weird color… Yes, a lot of it is a means to express oneself and is used to help define an individuality, but it usually starts are rebellious phase and those phases can last a long time. They can really get bad too in cases of young people living in a highly controlled area or those with a strong disconnect with their parents. I could see Adolin pushing it quite far if he keeps on failing to get the reaction he is trying to get.
I think he is primarily doing it to rebel against Dalinar, but eventually, it will morph into him growing into his own person. He is just not there yet: he is fishing and he first reacts by rejecting everything Dalinar holds dear. The real growth process will reach an end on the day he’ll be able to mix the good things about Dalinar with the good things about himself: that’s what growing up is about. A large part of the process is to accept some of what your parents liked/wanted it actually good while still being your own person and this can last a life time.
Right now, however, Adolin is just rebelling. He rejecting his father’s codes. He hasn’t started to become his own man yet, he is still in the reacting phase, the “I hate everything you represent” while internally, silently still loving his father.
I think Shallan is aggravating it… She’s like the friend the parents don’t approve of who has little parental guidance, who’s wild, and is taking the former good son towards bad paths… but the good son needs this if he is ever to become his own person, but it could end badly too. At least, this is how I think Navani/Dalinar view her.
@41 Cocchino. I do not agree with your perspective. I agree to just disagree and to drop it.
Reading about Szeth and hearing voices in the shadows:
Got to throw out the B5 reference. Mr. Morden, always accompanied by shadows. Voices there that you sense, but just can’t quite place. Morden in a cell, with Sheridan asking them to flip through the different spectrum on the cameras.
Yeah, Szeth and shadows, totally reminded me of that.
Ha!
Several years ago, before Words of Radiance came out, I asked Brandon about this at a signing. According to Taravangian, the Death Rattles in Alethkar had started at about the same time as Gavilar’s death. I asked Brandon if the words he spoke to Szeth were his own or if they were a Death Rattle, and Brandon said they were not a Death Rattle, but were Gavilar’s own words.
Navani
Loved this chapter. Navani’s perspective is like a breath of fresh air. I understand why she’s feeling bad about not doing the research herself. But, as your responsibilities increase, you don’t have much freedom to do the things you like. I manage a small team of developers here in Bangalore, India. Though I would love to spend my time in development, I hardly get the time to do it. I have learned that its better to focus on the larger scope of things. So ,I understand navani’s situation here. In this case, I am certain that this delegation by Navani will cost them dearly. Imagine how she would feel once she realizes that she was responsible for releasing an unmade/fuzed upon the land. Then again, this mistake would also help them realize that they can actually trap fused in perfect gemstones. Hey!! you win some , you lose some. Can’t complain there.
Szeth
I just love this character. Its so twisted and complicated that normal people cant even understand his perspective. It’s difficult to get my head wrapped around his PoV. But, I know its a valid PoV. He is someone who is a nice guy , brought up in a constrictive culture, brought up with the PoV that questioning the master’s orders is not even thinkable. He has had
-His freedom of thought stolen from him
-His mind frayed by the constant violence
-His sense of morality shattered by constant switches he has had to make due to change of masters.
I feel pity for the man like no other character save Kaladin. For some reason, his training with sky breakers in Oathbringer moved me to tears. I still don’t know why . But, I guess it was the realization that he was having a few good days for the first time in decades. I feel for szeth. I feel he has lot of room to grow . He has good inclinations. But they are buried deep by decades of harassment and abuse. Hope he gets a good arc in this book and the next. This reminds me of the saying by Parthunax ( Skyrim) : “What is better ? to be born good or to overcome your evil nature through great effort ?”.
Overall a good chapter. I feel this book is moving at a great speed. This only means that our beloved author has a lot more to offer and has increased his scope for Stormlight series. Cant wait for the release !!!. Not sure how many Indians are waiting for this book. If you are reading this, Give a shout out brothers and sisters :)
@40 I’m reasonably sure the Drop is buried in Shadesmar. I don’t think things at the bottom of the ocean appear on the surface in Shadesmar anyways.
I think the King’s Drop might be lost for good after all. Tropes aside, the Hightstorms seem to deposit a fair amount of material so sediment should accumulate fairly quickly even at the bottom of the ocean. In a few years the Drop might be drowned and buried.
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I really loved this chapter! Finally someone reacts believably to Szeth, thinks to consult Rlain about things that only he knows and properly grieves the death of somebody close to them! It is a bit odd that she doesn’t realize that as a Skybreaker of the Third Ideal Szeth can’t be separated from a shardblade and securely confined even if the evil black sword is taken away from him, though.
Navani ditching her guards and not having a dedicated bodyguard in the first place, OTOH, doesn’t feel plausible for somebody who was involved in unification of Alethkar, where political assassinations are/were a tactly accepted tool. It didn’t make any sense with Jasnah in WoK/WoR (and particularly so in the prologue, when she didn’t yet have her powers, and makes even less sense with Navani back then and now. I guess we have to brace ourselves for the inevitable “unexpected” murder attempt on her.
Is it Bo-Ado-Mishram in the gem? She is certain to be stolen and released, isn’t she? And Nergaoul is going to be retrieved and ditto. Argh, Zahel, if only you had told the appropriate people about Nightblood’s capabilities! It is also rather concerning that voidlight feels so seductive to Rlain. If the singers are tempted by voidlight, then getting them to turn against Odium and trusting that they had truly done so is going to be even more difficult.
Is Mink blaming Dalinar for the Herdazian civil war? This seems more than a little unjust – nobody forced them to attack the borders of Alethkar and tangle with Dalinar, just because they assumed that Gavilar was getting soft. We never heard about Herdaz losing any territory over it’s defeat either. How old the Mink anyway? Adolin was in his infancy during that war, so how old could Mink’s son have been?
I like Adolin pushing back against Dalinar, but is this the time to waste money on luxury clothing? What happened to the threat of starvation hanging over Roshar back in OB due to all the parshmen leaving at the sensitive point of the agricultural season and the Everstorm? Why don’t they have to contend with massive waves of refugees? I’d have liked to see him dealing with these things. Being a “people’s” highprince isn’t all about drinking in non-exclusive establishments.
Slow @2:
I am with you. The notion of being accepted on merit is all very well and good, but is incompatible with certain groups being rejected out of hand due to prejuduce or having to be much better than default to be considered. As is certainly the case with Rlain.
Taryn @10:
Ditto. What makes Szeth even worse is that in WoK and WoR he wasn’t even doing it mainly “for honor”, but due to his fear of oblivion in the afterlife, which was supposed to be the consequence of abandoning his slavish obedience to the Truthless strictures. Sanderson admits in his FAQ on writing on his website that Szeth surviving WoR was a late change in the writing of that book. Which is why, I guess, Szeth’s motivation got retconned into something a bit more palatable in OB. He did grow on me in OB and Edgedancer, but I still think that he should have died and remained dead. IMHO, YMMV
Ugh, was so hoping the chapter would include the meeting with Jasnah.
So I know people have theorized it, but I really think Navani is gonna become the Sibling’s Bondsmith. She’s working to unite all the people’s of the world (2nd ideal) her thoughts of trying to be better since she messed up with Elhokar (3rd ideal). Plus I think it would be interesting if every single Kholin other than Adolin was a Radiant.
Is Gav’s desire for revenge foreshadowing of the 2nd cycle of books (and Moash surviving the first cycle) or just an illustration of the cycle of vengeance?
I have theorized for awhile that synthetic gemstones are possible and probable in the future of Roshar. Nice to see a possible hint of that taking place!
I enjoyed this chapter. To me, it seems obvious that Adolin is lashing out in his own way. Of course Dalinar is going to be a little unhappy, but that’s what happens when you tell your son that you killed his mother! I’m also sure he wouldn’t do this in front of his actual soldiers. I also don’t think his goofing off impacts his actual character at all, and that’s ultimately all that matters to me.
Count me among those that think that it’s another Unmade, rather than a Fused. It would be difficult and repetitive to incorporate trapping all of the Unmade. Do we know how many black sphere’s Galivar had or gave out? I can only count two and otherwise we’d have heard if he was giving them out like tic-tacs.
Seven years later and Navani is finally able to study the spheres that Navani saw Gavilar had the night of his assignation.
Dropping the ruby that holds the Thrill into an ocean will come back to haunt them. Stuff like that never works out well in fantasy books. Brandon might as well just put out a WoB that someone will recover that ruby and the Thrill will make an appearance later in the series (probably somewhere in Books 6-10; I doubt that Chekhov gun will be fired in RoW or Book 5).
I did not think Aimians would come to Urithiru. I wonder if their presence in Urithiru was the result of events that occurred in Dawnshard. (FWIIW, I have not read Dawnshard yet, so my question is definitely a RAFO.). Does Navani know that Aimians are not really human? Or is she referring to descendants of humans that may have once lived on the Aimian islands? IMO, it is the former.
I find it cute that Gavinor calls Navani “Gram” and Dalinar “Grandpa”.
“No army, no matter how clean its reputation, walked away from war untainted. And no leader, no matter how noble, could help but sink into the crem when he stepped into the game of conquest.” There is something to be said for Navani’s comment. I probably agree with the first part (re the army); I 100% agree with the second part (re the leader).
Too bad the chapter ended when it did. I wanted to see the Mink’s reaction to Shallan and Dalinar producing the map. In a way, it is like they are showing off. Well, maybe Shallan showing off. Dalinar does not strike me as they type who would show off. He just does things.
Thanks for reading my musings.
AndrewHB
aka the musespren
I appreciate that even in the privacy of her own head, Navani respects Rlain enough to think of him as a listener, not a Parshendi.
Also I’m glad humans have finally accepted that “Voidbringer” is a term which has no clear meaning anymore.
Anyone else thinking the Mink might end up being a Releaser? And not necessarily on the Coalition’s side?
@50 Tom: me too!!! If the next chapter doesn’t show me Jasnah on screen I might scream. Where is she? What is she doing? Is she getting enough sleep??? I have very pressing questions that need answered here.
Adolin’s behaviour being “disgusting” is a wee bit harsh, no?? In the last year he’s had his entire life inverted, lost his cousin on a mission where he was sent to protect him, lost his home, and had his ideals about his father shattered because Dalinar published a book telling the world he accidentally brutally murdered Adolin’s mother and then magically wiped all memory of her from his brain for 6 years while his sons grieved. I think he’s entitled to put his new fancy boots on the table and make the occasional smart-arse comment.
@46 I agree I think it will be buried in Shadesmar – but the Thrill is more than a bead/a gemstone. We don’t really know how the Unmade appear in Shadesmar. I also mourn the loss of the King’s Drop because, well, it holds Stormlight perfectly and it’s enormous. That could have been a real edge for the Radiants. But Dalinar trapped his trauma inside and then they chucked it in the sea so there goes that.
Side note: I wonder if Queen Fen had a heart attack when she found out it had been thrown into the sea.
The Mink intrigues me. I think it’s a good reminder that the Alethi are not loved, and have done serious damage to other nations. I’d like to see Veil/Shallan take some rogue lessons from him, that’d be fun.
I also agree there’s an Unmade in the gem. I have an unfortunate feeling it’s going to get accidentally released in the name of scholarship…
Finally: Navani bonding the Sibling is probably more likely but personally I’m in the Rlain camp. He’s slowly bringing it back/making things grow there again and I think that’d be really interesting for his arc/is also foreshadowed by the Diagram.
Why should Rlain know the new rhythms? He isn’t living among Fused and never took one of the new forms.
The gem given to Eshonai: I believe that one had a stormspren in it, did it not? Is that where they got the spren that she used to transform into Stormform?
birgit @56. While he wouldn’t necessarily know the new rhythms, I don’t think they would be foreign to him. He is attracted to the voidlight after all, and that doesn’t seem foreign to him.
People are thinking there’s an Unmade in the gem. There isn’t. We saw a gem containing an Unmade, and Nergaoul gave off perfectly normal Voidlight.
It’s probably Trellight or something else we couldn’t possibly figure out with current clues.
I can see Nergaoul being freed from the King’s Drop in, say, Book 7. And Lift eats an entire chull and un-corrupts it.
@35, ChrisRijk:
This is a meeting of anti-Odium leaders. Kaladin is between jobs, and probably won’t be leading anything in the short term. He would be completely out of place here. It isn’t even a generic meeting, it’s a briefing specifically for the Mink. Kaladin would probably not be present even if he were still leader of the Windrunners.
So, I have a theory about this strange gemstone. Rlain said it “vibrates wrong against my soul,” and parshendi are very much attuned to the soul of Roshar. Additionally, we have reason to believe (I’m not sure if it was confirmed yet or not) that Gavilar had found ways to travel between worlds using Shadesmar before dying. What if this gemstone contains a different type of investiture, such as Feruchemy, that, when stored in metals can last forever. Gavilar could have found a way to bring another type of investiture to Roshar, but he did not know what to do with it, because there was nobody able to invest currently on Roshar, aside from Hoid. He could have tried to orchestrate the return against the “Voidbringers” in order to force spren into bonding with humans, creating people able to invest. He and Amaram were part of the sons of honor, which were trying to return the voidbringers.
Just a theory, but I think it has some merit.
On a “light”-er note (pun intended):
Voidlight is described as theoretical, unnatural, slightly nauseating to look at, … and purple. Instantly my mind went to Octarine. If you get that reference, then we can be friends.
Nergaoul dumped in the sea? What if in the 2nd cycle of books there are beserker sea monsters with the Thrill.
For a lack of a better term, Adolin is acting petulant.
Is his attitude a result of Dalinar’s revelations? Adolin went from questioning the reason for the strict adherence to the codes to accepting that Dalinar was correct during Oathbringer. Now he seems to have reverted back (in small part), perhaps as an act of personal rebellion against Dalinar. And perhaps now thinking that if Dalinar was not so honourable as he had presented himself, the codes might not as honourable as presented, either. Regardless, this is plausible.
And also, as Navani thinks, perhaps it is just a man trying to become his own Highprince in his own right, and not just another Blackthorn. Also seems plausible.
However, I think Dalinar hit closer to the mark than people perhaps realized.
We have seen Shallan influence people through her lightweaving – Gaz, Vathah, etc… – into becoming something more or different. Is Shallan (or Veil, or Radiant, or the potential new 4th identity) subconsciously using her radiant powers to influence Adolin?
Boots on a table and that particular snarky reply is a Veil move, not something we have really seen from Adolin before.
So I wonder if it is really little of A + B with some subconscious behaviour from Shallan that is brining out this behaviour in Adolin in a way that is not in character to the person we have seen in previous books.
Initial Observations:
Navani chapters may not have much “action”, but they definitely provide more world building and lore.
I understand the decision made with Szeth and Nightblood. I am curious if Szeth informed Dalinar that he also has a 3rd level bond with his Highspren, and therefore likely has a spren-Shardblade as well (not to mention, access to Division). Clearly, he can escape and/or cause major destruction whenever he wants.
I’m thoroughly amused that Nightblood was talking to a number of people from Szeth’s cell for awhile, until Szeth was convinced to have Nightblood stop. I’m sure that Zahel avoids that cell like the plague (or, considering current events, at least how people used to know to avoid the plague anyway). I wonder if Lift sometimes visits as well.
I was happy to see Gavinor, and to see that Navani and Adolin have been interacting with him. I am not sure whether Jasnah would be all that maternal with Gav (I would assume not, actually), but it is good for his recovery that he is surrounded by family as much as possible. I wonder if the time jump will still have Gavinor seeking vengeance on… someone?
Taravangian – I get that politics and alliances are in play, but I still find it a little off-putting that the monarchs know what Taravangian did and yet still allow him to be involved in their planning. And, as the reader knows, he’s totally gonna screw them even more.
The Mink is going to be a good read. Not just because he’s comedy with his escape act, but also because he will continue to unsettle Dalinar and the Alethi by drawing attention to their previous actions on Herdaz. It’s important to keep pointing out that Dalinar and the Altehi engaged in rather monstrous acts themselves, and not that long ago.
Another good chapter, although it seemed somewhat short.
I know someone probably mentioned this already, but could that sphere be holding the Sibling? It’s a perfect gem and those things are used to hold powerful sprens. After all, Dalinar used a perfect gem to trap an unmade. Why would it cause unease? Perhaps because it longs to be free and senses where it is.
I am baffled at the lack of empathy towards szeth in the fandom. Hate him if you want, but if you are brainwashed by society, you aren’t going to do better than him.
@45 Interesting that it’s another Indian who offered empathy for Szeth.
It probably does make more sense for the sphere to contain an Unmade or voidspren, story-wise. That has a lot more plot potential than it being captured corrupted Breath, but I guess we’ll see.
I had a thought on Szeth-just last chapter we read Zahel’s description of how Cognitive Shadows become more and more consumed by their Intent and start losing their personality. He also classifies Szeth as a Cognitive Shadow, although he could be wrong about this. Is it possible that this is part of what’s going on here, and why he doesn’t think to take initiative beyond just what he’s ordered to do?
Don’t forget that Nazh was able to successfully recover items (Shallan’s sketchbook, if I’m not mistaken) from the bottom of the ocean on Roshar already.
And here I thought that was just a little wink and nod to the fans … sneaky, sneaky work Mr. Sanderson.
@65: For me personally at least, my trouble isn’t in “empathizing with Szeth;” it’s in comprehending how the Assassin in White ever came to exist in the first place. I’m honestly baffled by the very notion of Truthless. The whole idea just conceptually makes no sense at all, and I’ve always kinda felt it was the “weakest link” in the Stormlight Archive and possibly in the Cosmere as a whole. Like, this was Brandon using his one free “stupid thing that makes no sense and exists entirely to service the needs of the plot” token.
Think about it. When you get right down to it, how could the concept even possibly work? A person is told that 1) they are utterly without honor or righteousness due to having violated a powerful taboo in their society, 2) they are now cast out from participation in their society and made a slave, 3) their own society wants nothing to do with them (see the Rsyn interlude in which we find out that Szeth got given away to an outsider at apparently the first opportunity), 4) they are required by the rules of their society (that they are being cast out of for having violated their rules) and bound by their honor and sense of righteousness (that they are condemned for lacking) to obey the holder of their oathstone perfectly (when they are being punished for imperfect obedience to a less strict code), and 5) this perfect obedience includes the unquestioning commission of sins and further crimes if required by your master, but the guilt for having done so is upon the Truthless’s head and no one else’s. And oh by the way, here’s a weapon of unimaginable power. We’ll just entrust you with it, vile criminal, and retrieve it once you’re dead.
Points 4 and 5 are where the whole thing falls apart. There is no conceivable incentive for anyone, upon being proclaimed Truthless, to accept their punishment, and plenty of incentives for them to take the Honorblade and immediately turn around and slaughter the people who had done this to them
@69 you argue that mindless honor is dumb.
I presume that’s the point author is making.
The whole point of honor is that it doesn’t concern itself with incentives. Merely Binds.
When we get to the shin in the books, we will probably know about this conclusively rather than having to speculate and lean on our instinct.
That sphere’s going to be gone in no time flat. Haven’t they learned anything from the Honorblade’s theft?
@65
I think Szeth is one of the best characters in all of Sanderson’s work and I am really excited to hear his story in book 5.
I have been drawn how his beliefs drove him to put duty over his conscious, regardless of the personal costs to himself and those he was sent to kill. Szeth is a character that has been written to challenge our own belief systems – just because something is tradition or the way things always were, does not make it right or the way things should be moving forward. If we cannot step back and look at our actions and the world around us, how can we evaluate what we are doing is right or wrong?
Szeth, for all intents and purposes, is a child. An automaton. He has never been taught how to think for himself, or consequences, or have any future-sight in his actions. He is a creature of the moment. He has lived a life of not thinking, just doing what he has been told.
How can anyone be surprised he did not think to go get the sphere on his own, but only when (vaguely) asked about it? How can anyone be surprised that he had not thought of the consequences of how Dalinar’s death might impact his own oaths?
You can almost draw a line from Szeth to the parshman – doing what they are told, knowing there should be something more in their lives, yet feeling a fog (one brainwashing based, the other magic) that stops them from truly being themselves.
There is also an added bonus of a character who no longer trusts himself to understand what is right and wrong guiding a weapon that does not truly understand and cannot identify evil, yet was created to to eradicate it.
In any other story, Nightblood would have killed Szeth.
But in this story, Nightblood, in Szeth’s hands, might be the safest place for that blade.
Don’t have time for lots of comments (or to read all the ones before me, so maybe this is already mentioned. But…
“Incredibly powerful evil things dropped in the ocean/large bodies of water never get found again! (Side-eyes the One Ring)”
This isn’t just something from other fiction. It’s already happened before, in Warbreaker when Nightblood gets dumped in the bay. And it takes less than a day for him to make it back out. The “deepest part of the ocean” may or may not actually be the deepest and most inaccessible place. But a being like Neragoul contained in the ruby might not be locked up as tightly as they think. Taravangian may already have fished it out again and hidden it away for later.
Other quick thought: I love Adolin and all his boots. He’s a highprince and still wearing a uniform, let him play with that all he wants
re: Adolin’s rebellious behaviour
I wonder if Navani and Dalinar are both a little right about Adolin in this chapter. Certainly Adolin is reacting against the revelations about Dalinar and trying to get a rise out of his father, but we’ve also seen that he’s a little insecure about his marriage to Shallan, too. Perhaps it’s not so much that Shallan is a bad influence on him (as Dalinar suggests), but more that he’s acting up because he’s anxious to remain exciting and attractive to her in the midst of everything that’s happening to them. Despite being a Highprince now, Adolin’s arguably the least impressive and important he’s ever been, now that the Alethi social hierarchy has been thoroughly shaken up by the arrival of the Radiants – after all, who’d be interested in a fashionable duelist prince when there are literal flying bridgemen and ancient singers about? We’ve explicitly heard these worries trickle through his POVs since Oathbringer, so I feel like it makes sense that what’s causing his rebellion now is kind of…everything…not just any one relationship or idea. Hopefully we get to see him mature and overcome these feelings throughout this book, because I honestly think that a well-developed Adolin Kholin could wind up being my Best Boy of the Stormlight series…
Just finished the chapter, commenting before I read your review.
I love everything about this chapter! Navani and Szeth! Navani and Szeth is definitely my favourite part. I feel sorry for Szeth; he was basically gaslit by his entire culture and It’s screwed him up immensely; he’s done horrific things and he knows it and hates himself for it. But the readers have seen inside his head; the characters haven’t, so it would be very difficult for any of them to feel sympathy for him. I like that Navani hates him and finds him profoundly creepy. I like that she’s digging information out of him anyway. I like that so many details in that part of the chapter tell us exactly what Szeth’s mindset is, just by connection to his earlier chapters, even without the chapter ever being from his perspective.
I’m guessing that the weird sphere is from offworld.
Navani as a grandma is lovely, but also sad; she lost her son just as he was starting to grow into a person she could be proud of. And Gav is sadly already being shaped by Alethkar’s violent culture. Adolin teaching him to ride is cute, though.
The glimpse of multicultural Urithiru is very appealing. Navani’s research on it is incredibly important; I love her and I love her scientific mind and interest in how things work (though in her place I’d be more cautious with that weird sphere and not try to use it for fabrials or Radiants).
I still love the Mink! I love him calling out Dalinar! And Adolin and Shallan are very cute – I like that she’s enabling himself to define himself more apart from Dalinar’s shadow. Though there still seems to be a worrying distance between them.
I like to picture the whole Kholin clan helping with Gav’s education.
As was asked earlier re: why is Dalinar teaching Gav rather than Adolin: I expect there isn’t much sword training going on. It’s more “hanging out with Grampa Dalinar”. The kid’s 5. When a kid’s 5, his “training” is just “hanging out with the grown-ups” (Source: Was 5)
This was the same age Adolin was in the OB flashback after he was born. Dalinar was willing to show him the Blade, but Adolin was allowed to be a 5-year-old boy.
I see a bit of parallel between Szeth and Rlain. They were both hypercompetent slaves who had to learn to keep their mouths shut. Szeth had longer as a slave to learn that, and we see the result of that here: a guy who answers questions directly when asked, but does not volunteer information. It’s not a conscious choice, it’s a learned behavior, one that I am seeing tiny hairline cracks in.
More on Szeth: I can’t explain why the Shin did what they did; I’ll wait for Book 5 for that. But I do understand what Szeth’s mindset was. He was told that he was Truthless, meaning that he lacked the capacity to make moral decisions. The idea implicit in the Oathstone is that literally anyone, any random person in the world, could make better decisions about what to do with you than you could.
For that reason, it doesn’t feel to me like “just following orders”. “Just following orders” was used by men who followed evil orders because it was easier and more convenient and safer for them than going against those orders would be. Szeth followed the Oathstone despite hating what he did – despite preferring to die – because he believed, because he had had it impressed upon him, that he did not have the ability to make right right choices. And he believed it because he had, by the standards of his culture, done a horrific thing – he had claimed that a global war was returning (and that warriors would therefore be needed) when that was untrue; to a peaceloving culture like the Shin, warmongering is the greatest of crimes.
When he realized he had not committed that crime – that he had been right about the Desolation – he shattered.
And because of the horrible things he did in service to the Oathstone, he’s still continuing with the belief in his incapacity to make moral choices; he’s just harnessing it in a less destructive and more useful way, by letting Dalinar make his decisions for him.
His journey in Book 5 is going to be about learning to make, and trust, his own choices.
@@@@@37 / @@@@@Wetlandernw
I totally understand that as well, however this rationale would leave us debating in-world hierarchy, who has authority over whom and there we can also say that Syl considers Kaladin to be leader of the Windrunners in the Physical Real so it’s not beyond the pale for him to assume this authority over other would-be Windrunners (either human or spren looking to become Windrunners). But honestly, that’s besides the point – the wrong person giving you a command in a military organization isn’t something that evoked the kind of powerful emotional reaction some people had. I was trying to drill down into the reason why some people felt this almost visceral discomfort or wrongness about Yunfah being ordered to (consider) forming a bond. As I understood it, these readers felt that the bond was something special and organic that would be poisoned if it was forced. In response to that, I was seeking to clarify if that wouldn’t be the case with Wyndle or the Stormfather (who truly hated humans but was compelled to seek and serve them). Or instead, perhaps the bond can ALSO be a vehicle, when applied correctly, for both parties to grow and develop, which in this situation would certainly be the case with Rlain breaking down barriers for his people. Syl did the same by bonding Kaladin when all Honorspren refused to bond humans, it took her being the pioneer to start changing the mentality of the others. Perhaps Kaladin though that with a slight nudge, Yunfah/Rlain could’ve done the same.
@@@@@49 / @@@@@Isilel totally agree with that facet of this narrative, re: taking on/down an inherently unequal and prejudiced institution requires someone with authority to take a stand in favor of someone who is discriminated against. It would be unfair to expect the person discriminated against based on irrational prejudice to keep trying to be the most qualified (and really overqualified) and break through the irrational prejudice and hate of others. But even there, it’s Rlain’s decision to turn down a bond like that. I just don’t fault Kaladin for trying to do the right thing, even he could’ve been a little more sensitive about his approach.
Either way, good discussion all!
One more thing about Szeth. If you believe that he remembered the single cave in Jah Keved that he chose to hide the sphere, one specifically chosen to be a good hiding place, but DOESN’T remember the names that Gavilar throws out during their fight, I have some real estate to sell you.
Re: The King’s Drop in the ocean.
*gives the Sad Bracelets a suspicious look*
I agree that it would appear in Shadesmar as being buried, but how else would it manifest? Could it affect the world (either one) from there? What about the impending trip to Shadesmar?
Maaaaaybe throwing an eldritch abomination that creates and stokes bloodlust into the ocean wasn’t the best idea. On a not-at-all terrifyingly relevant note, are there sharks on Roshar? *hums Jaws theme*
Mods, if you can merge this with my previous post, please do. Sorry about the double post
@79: I went back to the TWOK prologue, and the names Gavilar said were Thaidakar, Restares, and Sadeas – all Alethi highprinces.
I love seeing the bond between Navani and Adolin. They are clearly important to each other. He hugs her when he enters the room and I can almost hear the fondness in her voice when she says “that boy”. And there he goes “remembering” Gavinor.
I can’t believe the chapter stopped before showing us how the Mink responds to the MAP. I bet it knocks his socks off. I also think his teasing Shallan with all the different ways to escape is going to help her get away in some future delemma.
Myabe she and Adolin will run afoul of the King’s Drop in Shadesmar. I have to wonder how it might affect Adolin. He was already being sickened by it while they were still fighting in the Shattered Plains.
I think whatever is trapped in the sphere is from Braise. I do worry it’s likely to escape. I also believe we will have Szeth and Nightblood along with Zahel and Kaladin when the Fused attack Urithiru.
Alice. Navani, Dalinar and the rest do not know that Taravangian is a secret Odium ally. It appears by the end of RoW, they will much to their detriment. If Dalinar and his team still control Urithiru by the end of RoW, I am sure they will finally kick out Taravangian.
This is the third pair of boots Adolin wore this week because Shallan probably took his other two pairs. She likes taking (and wearing) men’s boots.
Thanks for reading my musings.
AndrewHB
aka the musespren
KiManiak @63 – You made me curious, so I checked. This chapter is the exact middle of the word-count; of the 19 chapters in Part One, 9 have more words and 9 have fewer. LOL.
@64, Almazar80:
Well, no. Not if you believe the Stormfather, who said the Sibling was “slumbering,” not imprisoned. Also, why would he be sensitive about the Sibling’s being trapped? Surely if he saw that sphere he would say,”Break that and free my Sibling!”
@80, KatherineMW:
Restares is a leader of the Sons of Honor, but I have no idea why you think he’s a Highprince. Thaidakar is a leader of the Ghostbloods, ditto.
Taravangian is Cultivation’s tool and will most certainly save the world. Not the way he means to, but Cultivation is tricky and foresighted.
@70 I don’t argue that “mindless honor is dumb;” I argue that it’s unrealistic. That the way the concept of a Truthless works goes against everything we know about human psychology and human motivation.
@84: Oops, my mistake.
Mason Wheeler @69 – It’s highly unlikely that Szeth was given the Honorblade as part of being named Truthless. We know he had trained with all the Honorblades, which pretty much had to happen well before he was named Truthless. It seems probable that he was the formal bearer of that Blade, and they didn’t take it away when he was banished. It seems stupid, but my guess is that the assignment of a Blade is for life, whether by mere tradition, or some more magical binding.
I object in the strongest possible terms to Navani calling Nightblood evil! He was created to destroy evil! That’s like the exact opposite of being evil!
I find it very interesting that Szeth hints that Moelach presence was a common thing in Shinnovar and the way it says might suggest Moelach spent a good deal of time there, which means something force him to move over to Alekthar/Jah Keved and this move was something recent. My theory is that Odium, somehow, is/was influencing the Diagram/Tharavangian using the death rattles from Moelach. Szeth became Truthless around a few months to a year before the death of Gavilar and I believe it has been hinted that Taravangian sougth the Nightwatcher AFTER Gavilars death or at least he deviced the diagram sometime after. And I find it too convinient that the tool, the death rattles, Taravangian needs to “upgrade” his diagram conviniently moves from one side of the continent to the other in a span of a year.
Even if Navani had convinced Dalinar to order Szeth to get rid of Nightblood, Szeth should still be able to escape his cell when he wants. I believe he has sworn his Third Ideal. This means he should have bonded with a spren and the spren should be able to manifest itself into a Shardweapon.
As the Mink is at Urithiru, I suppose all the other evacuees of Hearthstone have arrived safely. This would include Lirin, Hesina, and Oroden. I wonder if we the reader will learn Lirin and Hesina’s initial thoughts/reactions. My guess is Lirin will not be impressed; he does not seem to be the sort that is impressed with anything. Hesina, on the other hand, I think will be quite impressed and take to the tower like a duck in the water. Also, I want to see Lirin’s reaction when Kaladin tells Lirin that Kaladin has been removed from active combat because of combat fatigue; in our world, I think it would be diagnosed as PTSD. I will leave it to others more qualified to advise if combat fatigue and PTSD are the same or two different (albeit related) conditions.
Gepeto @17. I think the reason that Gavinor wants Dalinar to teach him the sword rather than Adolin is that Dalinar and Navani are raising Gavinor. He is around have had them all the time. He sees them as his father and mother. It is analogous to a young child asking his father to teach him how to play a particular sport even if his younger uncle may be a better athlete. The child sees his father every day; he may only see his uncle once every few days. Also, Gavinor is only 5. He would not realize that Adolin is a better swordsman than Dalinar.
Carl @18. I do not think the Mink is a Stoneward. Escaping from handcuffs and the like is a skill he has had for years. He is probably just a very limber person (double-jointed and what not). He is the Roshar version of Harry Houdini or any other escape artist. If the Mink were a KR, he would have been Investituring for almost as long as Jasnah. By this point, one would think he would have progressed far enough to have sworn his Third Ideal. I cannot imagine the Mink would not have mentioned it do anyone else.
Saitama @20. I do not think what Adolin did was the actions of a spoiled child/teenager. Perhaps it is because I did not completely respect my father. I would do things to intentionally tweak him; similar to Adolin’s response to Dalinar saying “Decorum. Discipline. Dedication”. The one thing I would not have done is put my foot on the table. However, I think that is something that many Alethi would have done. Dalinar, who wants to wrap himself in the Code, would not do that. Yet, younger Dalinar would definitely have done that. I do not see a problem with Adolin buying so many expensive boots as long as he can afford it. After returning from Cultivation/Nightwatcher, Dalinar chose to dress and act in a rigid, formal manner. Adolin and Renarin started out emulating Dalinar (for that matter, they may not have had the choice to disagree). Yet Adolin had always been a fashionista. Now is his chance to express himself through fashion.
Further, Dalinar was way-out-of-line to blame Adolin’s change on Shallan. Adolin always had this as part of his personality. Dalinar’s strength of character was one of the reasons that Adolin suppressed that portion of his personality. The other, in my opinion, was his complete idolization of Dalinar; now that Adolin knows the truth of some of Dalinar’s past, Adolin does not completely idolize Dalinar. I think Adolin still loves Dalinar. For the most part, I even think that Adolin still respects Dalinar; at least Dalinar’s military acumen. Adolin has come to realize that Dalinar is not the be all-end all. Adolin has come to realize that Dalinar puts his pants on one leg at a time like everybody else.
EvilMonkey @26. I am on the Navani will be Dustbringer bandwagon. If she has to join any Order, I think it will be the Dustbringers. The characteristics of the order fit her very well. The only reason I am not driving this bandwagon is that I do not want Navani to be a Knight Radiant. I would like for some major characters to not be Knights Radiant. IMO, it is a more interesting story when all the major characters do not possess magical skills that the average person does not have.
El Cochino @41. I agree with you that Sadeas was manipulating Dalinar during the time of the Razing of the Rfit. I also agree that Sadeas was somehow behind the rockslide that almost killed Dalinar (and did kill all of his strike force).
Isilel @49. I also agree that Szeth should have died and remained dead. I think Brandon originally planned that Szeth would be the dead character who would have flashback scenes in on of the first 5 books rather than Eshonai.
Carl @58. What is Trellight? I have never heard that before (in either the Cosmere or outside of the Cosmere).
KatherineW @80. We only know for certain that Sadeas was a Alethi Highprince. We do not have confirmation that Restares (the former leader of the Sons of Honor) and Thaidakar (the leader of the Ghostbloods) are Alethi, let alone each a Highprince. FWIIW, I strongly suspect that Thaidakar is an off-worlder.
Thanks for reading my musings.
AndrewHB
aka the musespren
Bet you a firemark that Mraize already has the King’s Drop.
@AndrewHB:
It’s something we don’t know about, like I wrote.
OK, OK … SPOILER ANSWER BELOW:
In the second Mistborn trilogy, there is a religion called Trellism. They are worshipers of Trell. Trell seems to be a cosmic force opposing Harmony, source of the red mists that are attacking Scadrial. The Set seem be Trellists.
In making that joke, I was assuming that Trell is a Shard (not actually stated or really implied in the books) and would therefore have its own light. My point was that we can’t be sure Brandon has given us identifiable clues about what that is, any more than we know over on Scadrial what Trell is.
I believe that Szeth’s comment about dying words sometimes being prophetic in his homeland is supposed to tell us that Moelach was always in Shinovar, prior to sometime around the beginning of the series. It’s true that Szeth says that death rattles sometimes happen in his homeland, but that does not mean that Moelach left Shinovar when they didn’t.
I seem to recall that Taravangian thinks about how his victims do not always have death rattles, which contributes to his feelings of guilt over his activities. Meanwhile, death rattles happen on the Shattered Plains during the same period of time–and then back in Kharbranth again. Unless Moelach has an absolutely enormous area of effect, the Unmade probably is moving all the time, but it’s mostly just circling around the same places over and over again. At the same time, Moelach’s presence must not guarantee anything, or battlefields would be a cacophony of death rattles.
Even with them not happening all the time, something so dramatic would have to be a part of any culture that experienced them. Indeed, Szeth implies that the death rattles are part of the Shin cultural tradition that dying requests are to be considered holy. By contrast, the Alethi don’t seem to have any idea what they are. It doesn’t seem possible that this has been happening periodically throughout history, and no one ever formed any kind of cultural tradition around it.
This suggests that something happened to change Moelach’s migratory patterns.
I believe that once the spren are truly onboard with the whole apocalypse thing all the main characters with experience some type of Radiance. Maybe not everyone becomes KR, but I doubt we’ll see many normies going forward. There’s still a third light we know nothing about and 2 Bondsmith eligible spren who I suspect will have different Oaths than Dalinar. As far as Navani goes, my perfect scenario is she is instrumental in the Sibling’s awakening on her way to joining the Dustbringers, gaining self mastery on her way to realization that she really is a scholar, and one of the best ones at that. I can totally see a mind duel between her and the mad scientist Singer.
I wonder how Vasher would perceive the dark sphere? Would he be better able to articulate the difference between its light and Voidlight?
I agree with all the people who’ve suggested that the dark sphere might not be from Roshar.
I wonder what will happen if the Fused attack Urithiru while Szeth is still imprisoned there? We’ve seen in Warbreaker groups of people turned against each other by the compulsion to wield Nightblood. Will the Fused strike force end up being induced by Nightblood to kill each other?
@79: There may not be sharks, but there are santhid (the sea-turtle-like creature that helped Shallan get to shore after Jasnah’s ship sank) and giant aquatic chulls (like “The Hog”).
If Stormlight comes from Honor. And Voidlight comes from Odium. Then maybe the light in Gav’s sphere comes from Cultivation.
@96 I like this theory! Although I then also remembered that seeing as Lift uses food instead of Stormlight, doesn’t this suggest that Cultivation’s Investiture comes in the form of food/plants/substances that can be grown, as opposed to Light?
And then the Light in Gavilar’s sphere could be Investiture from off-world (provided by another Shard), like others have suggested.
@80 Unrealistic? You are underestimating human tenacity
all indications point to @77 KatherineMW being right though it would be prudent to wait for an on book confirmation.
@49 Isilel. Dalinar had his kids old by Alethi standards and the Mink could be a few years older. It isn’t far-fetched to think his son might have been a good 10-15 years older than Adolin.
I thought of Adolin wasting money on luxury back in chapter 12 but choose not to comment on it. I wondered why the lower born people loved him so much if they witness him splurging in useless things so grandly? Typically poor people frown on the excess of the ruling class…
@75 Katherine. I am curious over what you mean by stating you feel a growing distance between Shallan and Adolin? Could you elaborate on your idea?
@76 Kefka. My heart ache over watching another young boy wanting Dalinar as his hero.
@81 Goddessimho. Givent the fact Adolin remembers basically everyone living, I have been wondering where’s the catch when it comes to the Edgedancers oaths. Oaths are never easy. Lift struggled because she is selfish and does not want to care about other people, but ends up doing it anyway. Adolin doesn’t have the same personality, so where’s the catch for him? Oaths are supposed to be demanding, so who is the forgotten Adolin has failed to remember, struggles to remember and to listen to?
I love the idea Adolin finds king’s drop in Shadesmar. Maybe facing the Thrill will have him understand his father better.
@90 Andrew. I worry over the cycle repeating itself again: Gavinor will be the next Kholin boy to worship Dalinar. I don’t think Dalinar should be raising children. I think he should stick to being King.
I think there is a lot more going on with Adolin than him just being a fashionata. He is doing his utmost best to make sure he offends Dalinar in all possible manners. All the changes he has made have had one purpose: aggravate Dalinar. All his decisions have been geared towards rejecting all Dalinar represents. All his choices are ones he made to purposefully oppose his father.
If he were just growing up or going back towards being a fashionata, his choices wouldn’t have for purpose to anger Dalinar. They might anger him, but it wouldn’t be why Adolin does it. Here, I think it was obvious Adolin is acting out to anger Dalinar, on purpose.
This is why I called it a teenage rebellion. Adolin is not becoming his own person like Navani thinks: he is rebelling against Dalinar. At least, that what he is currently doing.
@80 My point was, I believe that Szeth DOES know the names and is hiding them for some reason. Szeth remembers the specific cave he hid the sphere in, but not three important names? Come on!
An earth year (not leap) is 525,600 minutes if adding the 6 hours to include leap day in the average it is 525,960. A Rosharan year is 500 days at 20 hours or 600,000 minutes. Meaning a Rosharan year is 74,040 minutes or 1,234 hours or 51.41666666… earth days longer than an earth year. If Adolin is 22 at the beginning of WOK that accounts for an extra 3.1 years (rounded) or just over 25 at the begining of WOK in the 2 + years since he has gained another 0.28 years but 24 +3.38 is 27 and some. so yes he is 24 on Roshar, but that is equal to about 27 and a half (how long ago was his birthday) on Earth. I have known plenty of mature 27 year old’s as well as plenty of immature ones. It doesn’t mean he wont be a good person only that he is finally learning to defy his dad and define himself on his own terms.
@101 The official conversion is actually 1.1 so Adolin would be 26 for those who think these calculations are actually relevant. Hence, Adolin never was 27, especially not when Sanderson made his WoB comment, all those years ago.
I know I am probably being petty about this, but this Earth conversion calculation has always annoyed me. The book is telling me Shallan is 18-19, Kaladin is 21, and Adolin is 24. I will thus read them, picture them as per those ages, not as per a calculation one needs to read in WoB to even be aware of. I also doubt Sanderson meant for us to interpret and read the character as per other ages than the ones he wrote in the books.
I will however state, IMHO, Sanderson made Adolin’s character a little too old for the character he meant to write. Adolin would read in a more cohesive realistic manner if he were a few years younger, but I don’t expect all readers to feel the same nor to agree with me here.
@@@@@ 102 Um…He laid out the exact math for you. You can’t really argue with math by just stating “the official conversion is …”:
@100 – Why would Szeth remember names that had no meaning to him and only heard once some 7 years before? Heck, I have trouble remembering someone’s name 5 minutes after meeting them.
@100 I would bet that for most people, remembering a location is far easier than remembering several new names which have been thrown at you unexpectedly. Also, with a location that you plan to use in some way, you can plan where that will be ahead of time, work out a route to get there, take in all the surroundings on the way there as well as whilst you are there, and that will all add to establishing a stronger memory of the end location you choose. Your brain will make so many connections subconsciously. Whereas, even given a single name, I don’t think it’s unusual for people to struggle to remember it just a few minutes later, unless you make a purposeful effort to remember it, by making associations or whatever works for you personally as a memory aid.
@2 Slow
I agree with you. I think Kaladin was right to make Yunfuh confront his prejudice. Kaladin was wrong to think Rlain would be happy with this plan, but being complacent with Yunfuh’s prejudice is also wrong. Even if Yunfuh doesn’t bond with Rlain, he will still be prejudiced and bond with someone else, bringing those prejudices to that bond.
@10 Taryn
You put in words my feelings about Szeth. He can be an interesting character, but that motive for his murdering spree just rubs me the wrong way. People only exist to be murdered by him as his punishment, and his pity is all for himself.
@32 StormBrother
Reminds me of a D&D campaign where three of us players had small children. We would burst into the map song, or make backpack consuming noises, or dance the secret tunnel song from A:TLA. The other players would stare at us, bemused.
@46 noblehunter
I was horrified to read that they had dropped the gem-imprisoned Thrill into the ocean, but you make a good point. It is likely buried under miles of rock on the Shadesmar side if they dropped it deep at sea. Still, stuff in the Earth’s ocean tends to move around. I remember once reading something about an engine block that started off the east coast of the U.S. and ended up near France. I hope they at least encased it in a large block of stone before tossing it overboard!
While we recognize real-world examples can be helpful in illuminating the text, we’d ask that you try to avoid bringing current politics into the conversation, as these examples tend to derail the thread (at least, at the current moment). Thank you.
@103 Here is the rule:
Confirmed here by Peter:
Re-confirmed here by Brandon Sanderson.
As we can see, the rule is 1.1. I dunno why @102 gets to a different factor, but that means his math is wrong. So there, you all have the WoB where Sanderson states Adolin is 27 and you all have the information to know he was wrong as 27 divided by 1.1 equates 24.5, an age Adolin never has in the books. Sanderson just did the math wrong, in his own head, and this WoB was carried on through the fandom stating Adolin is 27: I have even seen readers multiply the 1.1 to the 27 to get to 30! This is why we have to be careful with WoB: they are not always canon. Canon is the books.
Book Adolin is 22 in WoK, 23 in WoR/OB, and 24 in RoW. This is the official timeline as published and approved by Sanderson’s team.
I, as a reader, do not care for the 1.1 rule because I believe I am supposed to read the characters per their book age since this information is not part of the textual. It is just a tip bit some readers have liked to used/calculated, but for the means of storytelling, I consider characters are their book age.
Others can disagree.
1.1 Earth years per Roshar years is what we are using as the exact factor. Not the length of minutes, seconds, or hours, which are different on Roshar from Earth.
Anyone else think that the purple light gem could be a dawnshard? Or atleast a piece of one?
@111 Oooooooooo. Cool idea!
Is Adolin really wearing new shoes all the time or is he asking Shallan to change their appearance every time he meets Dalinar? He just has to show her his fashion magazines.
Well, having Peter Ahlstrom @110 say it’s 1.1 pretty well settles it… :-), but just to add to it, here’s the calculation for Jasnah’s “seven months” insult to Amaram in Oathbringer:
A Rosharan year is 1.1 cosmere (i.e., Earth) standard years, and a Rosharan year has 10 months of 50 days each. So 1 Rosharan day = 1.1* 365.25 / 500 = 0.804 Earth days. An earth pregnancy is 40 weeks = 280 days, so an equivalent Rosharan length of time is 280 / 0.804 = 348.45 Rosharan days = 6.97 Rosharan months, which matches very nicely with Jasnah’s statement.
Where Gener @101 went wrong is that Rosharan hours and Earth hours are different. (A Rosharan hour is about 58 Earth minutes, IIRC.)
And regarding Szeth’s forgetting the names, I’ll expand on kupes @105 and say that remembering a specific location that you chose to hide something in is much easier than remembering three names spoken in a foreign language and that you have no reason to suppose will ever be relevant to you.
Stormbrother @103 – Actually you CAN argue with someone’s math by stating the official conversion factor, since Team Dragonsteel (in this case, Peter) worked it out exactly. The calculations are only as good as the underlying assumptions, and in this case the assumptions are incorrect.
A Rosharan hour is 50 Rosharan minutes, not 60, as was assumed in the calculations @101. However, a Rosharan minute is longer than an Earth minute. As it works out, a Rosharan hour is a bit shy of 58 Earth minutes.
Heh. With post approval turned on, it looks like a bunch of people all responded to this at once! Oops.
(Also – people, can we PLEASE behave ourselves and enjoy the fandom? When you attack the person instead of debating the idea, or when you bring in controversial current events, you make things unpleasant for everyone. This is why we can’t have nice things. Can we do better?)
We had another clue to Alethi culture when Navani is wishing Gavinor wouldn’t take up the sword. She is thinking how going to war is a sort of “family” occupation for the Alethi. Children even younger than 5 would have wooden swords to start learning how to use one. The women train to be adjutants to their officer husbands. This makes me think that a large percentage of Radiants come from the Alethi so it would be reasonable that many of the main characters will become Radiants.
My secret hope is that at sometime in the series they lose the dress covered hand. Already we’ve seen Laran switch to gloves at least and so had Shallan as Veil. The book cover shows her with gloves and red hair so even her Shallan persona has made that practical change. It makes me think of how long women in RL were wearing gloves. I can still remember having to wear them in church during the early 60s. At least in Roshar they were allowed one bare hand.
In SFF, can we just assume every planet has the same time measurement as Earth and just call it magic? I think most people assume that anyways.
Personally I couldn’t care less what biological age Adolin happens to be at this current time. His behavior is consistent with a young man who has a ton of responsibility and all his foundational truths and values shattered. Many people come to the realization that their father isn’t perfect and that they aren’t the most important person in the world at an earlier age but it’s going to be devastating no matter when it comes. Give Adolin a break for his perfectly human reaction to his entire life changing in 2 years time. I mean, tell me the mature response to learning that your father was a war crime machine that killed your mom, you’re a highprince with no land and your subjects are in exile, you failed to save your cousin just as he was beginning to get his head out his ass, oh and there is an apocalypse on, the thing that makes you special is now close to irrelevant because of magic, and the sword you love may be preventing you from being magical too. I agree with Navani, Adolin is trying to find a way to make himself fit in a world that is vastly different from the one he grew up in. Problem is that so much of the person he was is bound up in Dalinar’s glory, his reputation, his expectations of his heir. He has to find out how much of his old identity should he keep when it was built on a guy he never really knew. In a way Renarin is probably having an easier time of it because Dalinar never really had any expectations for him. He couldn’t grow up to be a better version of Dalinar so he doesn’t have as much to reconcile. Plus he got magic to help fill in the cracks. So I need to see the brothers talk it up.
I just realized that now Zahel and Nightblood are in the same building (Urithiru). LOL.
@99, Gepeto:
That really isn’t the case. If you look at, say the Roman civil war after the death of Caesar, Marcus Antonius consciously lived a life of spending and consumption, to show that he was rich, because that was the sort of thing that won support. Fast forward to the Twentieth Century and both the Roosevelts won the Presidency here in the States as rich guys who championed the poor, as did Kennedy.
(Current day examples removed per moderator request.)
@118 EvilMonkey. I more than agree with this:
The reason I am being annoyed about it is I have seen the age thing being brought up so many times as a justification for one interpretation or another of Adolin’s character. While I think the character would read more easily for a greater percentage of readers had Sanderson made him just a few years younger, it is not a big deal. I would have never brought up the whole age discussion if it hadn’t been used to state Adolin’s behavior was disgusting because of his supposed age (which turned out being the wrong information).
So enough said on age. Adolin is, according to the narrative and for all discussion purposes, a young man who still hasn’t quite given a great deal lot of thought over who he wanted to be. It doesn’t matter if character XYZ nailed it 10 years earlier, this is where he is now.
My personal take on what is happening with Adolin is he is rebelling. Yes, I do think, eventually, his rebellion will lead him to question the man he wants to be and will eventually lead him to grow up into this person who may not be who Dalinar wanted, but certainly will be a good person too. I, however, do not think this is what he is doing right now at this very moment. I think, right now, he is just rebelling. He isn’t going through the process of defining the Highprince he wants to be nor is he choosing the man he wants to be: he simply is rebelling against Dalinar. All of his actions had for sole purpose of aggravating Dalinar and all were chosen to oppose Dalinar.
Hence, Adolin is just opposing Dalinar. I doubt the petulant insolent disrespectful boy we read this week is who Adolin really wants to be, but I think this is who he is in response to losing his hero-worship of Dalinar. Eventually, this should lead him towards figuring out who he really wants to be, to accept the things about his father he agrees with as opposed to just reject all of it. He’s thus, in my view, acting like a teenager, but being older, his acting out could have far more consequences than just family drama.
My prediction is Adolin’s little rebellion will increase in intensity up to a moment where he’ll be forced to open up his wound and let the pus run out, metaphorically. Then, once he acknowledges his pain, lets it run out is when he will be ready to really start growing into the man he wants to be. But he is not there yet, IMHO.
birgit @@@@@ 113 – I only just saw your post but I had this exact idea a few hours ago. Would be hilarious if true. Would be some excellent trolling.
@122 Chris and Birgit. I think they are real boots. Adolin wouldn’t show off an illusion and he never seemed comfortable with surge-binding unless absolutely required.
@123 Katherine. Thanks for explaining your thoughts. Yeah. I would agree with you here. I think I wrote something similar in an earlier week.
I recall commenting on how Shallan never seemed to be Shallan whenever she is with Adolin or not as often as you would expect for a healthy relationship. I did severely criticize Shallan for choosing to be Veil during Adolin’s night out. Yes, I am deliberately using the word “choosing” because the narrative implies Shallan chooses who she wants to be: she lets Veil out or Veil lets her out… There is an element of choice here and thus, in this scene, she did choose to be Veil for the evening and she does so after Adolin confides in her not being comfortable with Veil, not trusting her. He told her he feared Veil might engage with another man and the very next scene, Shallan forces Veil on him and has Veil, well, be around other people in an engaging manner.
This week, I agree Adolin sounded a little bit deflated Shallan was so interested in the Mink. I guess he might have thought this was yet another instance where Shallan seems abnormally interested in… another man even if he is old enough to be her grandfather. I wouldn’t use the word “less happy”, more like, discouraged his wife has found yet another person more interesting than him to spend time with. I could be wrong though, it is hard to get what Adolin really thinks without a viewpoint.
I do think it was deliberate on Sanderson’s part to not show us Shallan and Adolin spending time together. I think we are meant to catch on the fact they haven’t been spending a lot of time together. Clearly, they love each other, but yeah, I do agree there seems to be a distance between them.
I also think the Mink will be part of the Shadesmar expedition and will cause… problems between Adolin and Shallan. Or he will have a role to play here.
Ah, I forgot to share. Sorry about the double-posting but it is hard to edit with the moderation on the thread. Someone asked Sanderson if Dalinar told his sons about his book before he released it… Apparently, he never told them, he had someone read the draft version of his autobiography before he released it for the great public.
He didn’t tell them. He didn’t sit them down and tell them himself. He waited until his first draft was done, then he had someone read it to them. Then, he let everyone else read it.
Here are Sanderson’s exact words:
Adolin has every right to be mad at Dalinar… I thought others would have wanted to see this, the WoB, I mean.
FWIW, I doubt Sanderson is trying to get us “to catch on the fact they haven’t been spending a lot of time together.” It’s just that most of the time they spend together isn’t plot-relevant, and we don’t need to see them in their rooms for breakfast, dinner, and everything else they do there. The carriage ride from the warcamp to Narak was useful because they were debriefing as well as just being alone (finally!) for a few hours, but we don’t need to be told about it every time they’re together.
Nergaoul is my least favorite Unmade, so I’m not very enthused as the prospect of him getting back in the game (though “Lift eats an entire chull and un-corrupts it” is a notion I’m entirely down with, thank you Carl) but I’m wriggling with excitement at the possibility of another Unmade escaping that sphere and Causing Trouble. The remaining ones are so mysterious!
Navani thinks Aesudan “invite[d] in one of the Unmade.” I expect that refers to Yelig-Nar, the one she actually took into herself, but Ashertmarn also had her in his clutches while he partied in her home and Sja-Anat ran rampant in her city. Good times.
I hated Szeth in WoK and WoR because his POV chapters were so gruesome and sad, and was quite miffed by his resurrection. I liked him in Edgedancer and Oathbringer, and I don’t know how I’ll feel about him as this book proceeds.
@53: I did a mental double take at the reference to “Aimians” in Urithiru. What kind of Aimians? Siah? Human? Will Dawnshard give us more insight on this development? I hope so! (I love that on one portrait of Axies in the Coppermind Wiki, his text-tattoos include “Yo Brandon Sanderson, I better get my own book!”)
So it seems we get to see here two ways to remove a Fused from the game. After in the previous chapter we only talked about one of them…
Or once captured, it can be drained so it would be able to return?
@127 Haha, nice spot on Axies’s tattoo
I totally get why so many readers sympathise with Navani and I still really hope she grows on me. But for now I just.. can’t. I think it’s because I’ve worked in a field where I met so many women who had to endure truly, truly horrific abuse. I can’t help but think that no one forced her to marry Gavilar. She wanted to be Queen. (Reminds me somewhat of another first lady – like why should I feel sorry for her?) Not saying it wasn’t emptionally painful but it’s just not the same. Gavilar accused her of choosing him over Dalinar for his power and never making an effort to gain accomplishments of her own. She admits this is true. So he hurt her feelings and diminished her worth by stating what she did. So many women struggle through what is so much worse but decades later Navani still whines and whines .. Maybe she just isn’t a scholar? I think the idea of her being an organiser of scholars or a designer of things floated around a few chapters back.
I do like her existence as a character. I mean there are quite a few people like her in real life. People who are entitled and mainly (not solely!) focused on themselves and people they love most and not the general populace – people who just are ..selfish. Navani proves this time and time again. Just consider the thought that she has about trying not see people who are taking a walk on the cloudwalk as an “ecroachment”. Like this huge cloudwalk, millenia old, is just for you Navani because you had it all to yourself at first. People are now encroaching on where up until now only you walked because you married the king.. again. Would that thought have popped into Kals head? Or Adolin or Dalinar even? And the way she describes Elhokar now and in Oathbringer: Always just her sweet little boy who was growing to be a good king. Never mind that his incompetence cost so many innocent lives before! He was getting there! It’s all about her and her family – and her ambitions and designs. It just irks me. I know she’s not as bad as I just made her out to be. I know. But to me, she’s not particularly likeable either.
I also think that if we are willing to forget about Dalinars past (which is so much worse), we can also not get too hung up on poor Szeth who was not only mad but also practically brainwashed. I don’t think he’ll get a redemption arc like Dalinar but just because he’s too broken to become “good” doesn’t mean that his actions are anywhere near as bad as what Dalinar did. He just happened to kill more influencial (yet arguably less innocent) people.
Thought it was very clear, from exclusion that the spheres contain Voidspren
Brandon said in a wob that its not something crazy, it is along the lines “what we suspect”
1. it cant contain an unmade, he had too many of these, i do think its too small to hold that much investiture (the kings drop was the size of a head, a normal diamond like this isnt bigger that a thumbnail) and Gavilar wouldnt have just gave them away like this
2. it cant contain a fused, because it was a fear spoken about in the venli chapter, that humans could one day capture them. If Gavilar would have captured fused the rest, even if they hadnt seen him do it, would have noticed the sudden absence of some fused from braize
3. it isnt just pure voidlight, established in this chapter, but it has properties of the void anyways, so it has to be Odiums investiture
4. Gavilar gave one of the spheres to Eshonai who gave it to Venli. Venli coorparated with the Voidspren Ulim to release the everstorm. Its completely random, that a voidspren could have suddenly escaped from the prison that is braize, so my best guess is, that Gavilar captured Ulim in the sphere, took him to Roshar and Venli freed him from his prison by experimenting
Navani’s delegation of the “real science” to her ardents because she just doesn’t have the time rings utterly true to me. I used to do mostly bench science work, but now I spend most of my time guiding my employees on their research direction, suggesting lines of inquiry, pointing out alternate hypotheses to check, basically being a technically literate manager.
It used to be “ooh, today I’ll discover something”, now it’s “hey, look over there and discover something for me”. This is occasionally frustrating but mostly freeing, as you can follow up on more promising ideas and are no longer limited by the throughput of your own two hands — just by your ability to delegate and recruit effectively. One of these skills is more scalable! I think it’s a sign of Navani’s growth, but her frustration is natural and I think healthy.
I do think that gem is going to show up again and cause drama though.
@130
I don’t like the idea of comparative abuse. People are different, something that affects someone greatly is no big deal to others. It’s like PTSD in a way. So Navani didn’t experience the typical trauma one would associate with an abusive relationship. I read that prologue scene, the abuse and her reactions to said abuse pass the smell test for me. It doesn’t matter that some people have it worse , abuse is abuse, and it limits her in tangible ways.
As for the argument that no one forced her to marry Gavilar, that falls into victim blaming. I mean, by that same token Gavilar didn’t have to be such a soul-crushing ass to his wife. Besides, it’s quite clear from the context clues that while Gavilar may not have ever been a good guy he certainly was not the same man Navani married so many years prior. And judging by how many people loved him despite his vileness, he could put up a front like the best of them. Navani may not have even met the true Gavilar Kholin until years after their marriage. And where she gonna go then?
Lastly, she is, like all the characters who have spent most of their lives with power and having their world upended, coming to grips with the new world. She was shaped by her social status to act a certain way, think a certain way, and that way looks venal to someone who doesn’t move in those circles. I see a woman who is not oppressed by the one whom should have been closest to her anymore and can grow because of it. I see a woman scarred by her experiences but being healed by healthy relationships. Not many people can come out of an apocalypse as better people. I think Navani will be one of the few who manage to do so. But of course that’s just my read on her character, and that read may change depending on where Brandon takes her. I think you’re being a little too critical of her when I consider what her life must have been like with Gavilar, but believe as you wish.
@131 – I hadn’t considered a voidspren. Good point.
@131 It can be a Fused, captured long ago, could be one of the fused so damaged that was forgotten/assumed to stay hibernating (and also easy to capture as it will not fight).
If there was some anti fused protection that look like something that has block the connection to Odium, then maybe a Fused drained of voidlight there can then be killed permanently.
Off topic. I have a theory that I have not heard any postulate (at least not on the Tor.com re-reads). We were told in a WOB that Rlain’s absence for scenes involving Bridge 4 during the 2nd half of OB. My theory is that Rlain found evidence of the group of Listeners (led by Thude) who did not transform into Stormform. During the second half of OB, he went to search for the group. He found them and took them back to Urithiru. The group is hiding in the caverns under Urithiru (the ones the Alethians explored after Shallan caused Re-Shaphir to fled out Urithiru). IMO, this is a plausible theory. These Listeners (especially any of them who are in Warform) will be key in repelling the potentially upcoming Fused invasion of Urithiru.
Thanks for reading my musings.
AndrewHB
aka the musespren
I wonder if Dalinar gave the King’s Drop to Rysn to take out to sea (with Lopen for protection), and we’ll see her dispose of it in Dawnshard.
The mention of Gavilar’s and Navani’s marriage made me wonder … have we heard any mention of divorce among the Alethi? Is it permitted under Vorinism? It wasn’t (technically still isn’t) in, say, Catholicism.
@19 Do you think it could be one of the Shades from (the moon of) Threnody?
Super late to this read party but what a fun exercise in speculation.
@115 Wetlandernw
My mistake, thanks for educating me.
@138 not to be a pedant, but technically it’s remarriage that’s not allowed.
Not that divorce is seen as a particularly good thing/something to do lightly but in cases of safety, for example, or even sometimes for therapy reasons, separating or civil divorce if it comes to that is still a licit option. (Note that I’m not saying this because I want to get drawn into a discussion on the merits of said belief, etc).
@Lisamarie, not to get into a side argument, but the Catholic Encyclopedia disagrees with you. Separation is OK, but “… there can never be an absolute divorce, at least after the marriage has been consummated.”
Right, that is why remarriage is not allowed (outside of annulment). Civil divorces aren’t recognized as being complete/absolute, but they are at times necessary/allowed. To put it more clearly, a divorced Catholic can still be in good standing/receieve at Mass…there’s a little more fuzziness/disagreement as to whether a remarried one can (which, I’m not interested in debating as there are both pastoral and other approaches to take to this and I tend to lean towards the pastoral approach). FWIW Section 2383 of the Catechism supports my stance (in a dry, technical way). Basically separation of a marriage is never considered a good thing, but there may reasons that a civil divorce is needed for one’s protection, and there’s also a distinction made between the person who disrupts the marriage and a person who put their own good faith effort into it (and this to me also can be extrapolated to a person who causes the scenario where a divorce is needed).
It’s definitely semantics :) Anyway, moving on, sorry :)
So, after learning about voidlight and thinking back on Gavilar’s sphere, I guess a lot of people, me included, thought it might “just” a sphere containing voidlight, but now we know different, as Navani tells us it is not a standard voidlight sphere.
I think both this revelation and the revelation from Kholinar a couple of chapters back are pointing to the same thing: The sphere contains one of the Fused.
How Gavilar would get his hands on such a thing is a complete mystery to me though.
Wet@83 – Smack dab in the middle based on word count, huh? Wow, go figure. Maybe this just seems to read quicker due to all of the dialogue? Anyway, thanks for checking it out.
Re: Rosharan/Earth Age conversions and math – Wow, that became rather involved. Whether the reader sees Adolin as 24 or 27, Adolin is the Highprince of Kholin and yet at the same time, is also the son of the most powerful and intimidating man in Roshar. There will be times where Adolin will show his responsible, reliable and charismatic qualities, and there will be times when he’ll show his playful, rebellious and flippant qualities. And they all fit him just fine.
Hey hey hey. I just realized something. With Roshone dead now, Laral is available again …
You would think they’d have learned after the Honorblade theft, but no.
I think Neragoul will show up somewhere else in the Cosmere. Perhaps in a later Mistborn
@129: The text-tattoos are most legible in the portrait’s image file: 
They’re all snark and meta.
So, just want to throw out a crazy thought about the sphere I don’t see anywhere else in the comments (from quick searching). From the prologue, we know that Gavilar was working with at least 2 heralds – Nale and Kalak – apparently to transport *something* to/from Braize (and beyond!). There is only one thing on that world I could think of that they’d *want* to bring from Braize to Roshar – Talanel.
Given that Taln’s mind seemed to be restored when Dalinar connected the realms, then reverted when that ended, I don’t think he’s just gone mad from the torture – I think his madness is more magical than that. My crazy thought is it’s linked to whatever is in that sphere, and if they give it to him, he might be able to restore his mind.
Thanks to Vyre (#fuckmoash) we know that Heralds can in some form be trapped in gemstones. In fact, the sapphire there is described, after the killing, as having a “subdued glow”, which sounds like it may be a similar kind of light.
There’s also the fact that whatever is in that sphere, it seems *hostile* to *singers/listeners*. Again, I can only think of one thing on all of Braize that fits that description – Taln.
This is not a fully formed theory and I don’t know if I really buy it, but it’s a thought that seems very different from what everyone else is thinking, and I wanted to throw it out into the aether. And it’s not like Sanderson hasn’t pulled the “the MacGuffin you assumed was good/evil is actually evil/good” thing before.
@93. great observation linking the respect for dying words to the presence of Moelach in Shin for a prolonged period.
@131 that is a pretty convincing argument actually. I wonder how someone of Gavilar’s indifference to science and understanding would have known how to capture the voidspren, but I guess that could be rephrased as “how would that dunderhead have worked out how to get to Blaize in the first place.” And this is best answered by assuming that someone was guiding him.
I haven’t read every comment, but saw James Weaver’s and wanted to note: on the point with the Black Fisher holding my sorrow and consuming it: Moash says that too. “take my pain”. In an instance where he is not being physically hurt. Just a thought. Sorry if someone said that already, lots of comments to read through still.
@152: Yeah, I’m expecting Dai-Gonarthis to show up in this book. (And Dawnshard is about Aimia, and the epigraphs speculate that Dai-Gonarthis caused the destruction of Aimia, so that may tie in as well.
@152
Well thats Odiums theme throughout oathbringer. He takes the pain and other emotions and uses it to controll them, thats why he is called “the void” and why his minions are called “voidbringers” We first see this (i think) in Kholinar when he tries to take Shallans pain, then we see it with Amaram and Moash and then with Dalinar. Since the unmade are splinters of him this aspect could maybe been adapted by Dai-Gonarthis
@151
Well capturing spren is common knowledge on Roshar, he has enough scholars in his kingdom to get that knowledge easily. And also yeah, he was guided by Nale and Kalak, i wonder, if he knew they were heralds
“And this is best answered by assuming that someone was manipulating him.”
There @151. Fixed it for you.
But seriously, why isn’t it Tuesday yet?
@154, Havi:
Kalak says, “I want out!” to Gavilar. I certainly read this as Gavilar knowing that Kalak felt trapped by the Oathpact.