Happy Thursday, Cosmere Chickens, and welcome to Chapter Thirty-Five of the Rhythm of War reread… also known as, “in which Lyn gushes at length about how accurate Brandon’s descriptions of sword fighting are.”
Sorry not sorry.
But no seriously, I hope you’re ready because my storms do I love this chapter! My sword training is a weird combination of historical European longsword and stage combat for sword, rapier/dagger, quarterstaff/spear, and hand to hand. So seeing chapters like this where it’s clear that Brandon has done his research (and ::ahem:: listened to his beta readers like me and especially Liliana Klein and Carl Fisk) just make me so, so happy. It’s pretty rare to find fantasy authors who actually write sword fights well and yet manage to make them interesting to the uninitiated, so I’m going to do a lot of pointing out of specific details in this chapter.
Reminder: We’ll be discussing spoilers for the entirety of the series up until now. If you haven’t read ALL of the published entries of the Stormlight Archive (this includes Edgedancer and Dawnshard as well as the entirety of Rhythm of War), best to wait to join us until you’re done.
(In this week’s discussion we also mention some minor things from Mistborn in the Cosmere Connections section, so if you haven’t read it, you may want to give that section a pass.)
Heralds: Vedeledev (Vedel). Edgedancers. Loving/Healing. Role: Healer.
Talenelat (Talenel, Taln), Herald of War. Stonewards. Dependable/Resourceful. Role: Soldier.
A: I’d say that these two rather jump out, wouldn’t you? Taln, the Soldier, is 100% there for Adolin and his “strength of a soldier.” Vev has to represent Maya, who takes an unexpectedly active role in this chapter.
Icon: The Shardbearer gives us an Adolin POV.
Epigraph:
You say that the power itself must be treated as separate in our minds from the Vessel who controls it.
A: It strikes me as a little odd for the Vessel of two Shards to be taking advice from someone who turned down the opportunity to become a Vessel and thus can only speak from observation. Still, all those years of observation ought to be good for something.
L: There’s something to be said for listening to someone with an outsider’s opinion. Not having taken a Shard, Hoid is unchanged by the power, if not unbiased in regards to the use of said power. Saze is smart enough to recognize that listening to multiple points of view in order to come to an informed decision is important. Just because he doesn’t currently hold the power doesn’t mean he can’t have valuable observations about its use!
Chapter Recap
WHO: Adolin, Shallan
WHERE: Shadesmar, between the crossroads and Lasting Integrity
WHEN: 1175.4.7.5 (immediately following Chapter 34)
(Note: For the “when” notations, we are using this wonderful timeline provided by the folks at The 17th Shard.)
Adolin realizes that the humans who have been following them haven’t actually been following them… they were following Notum. He rides off to save him along with Maya and Gallant, and he and Maya manage to hold their own until the enemy retreats.
Overall Reactions
Never underestimate the strength of a soldier trained to stand fast.
Never underestimate the simple intimidating force of a man who won’t back down.
Never underestimate the worth of being willing to hold. Your. GROUND.
L: Reminds me of this famous quote by Captain Steve Rogers, which was in turn based on one by Mark Twain!
A: This chapter is one of my very favorites in the book. We’ve been almost drifting along, mostly doing character development while time passes, with just a few hints of underlying tension in the plot. This week, we start out in the same vein, with Adolin first relieved by the lovely time with Shallan and the starspren, and then starting to worry again about his inability to successfully manage this mission. Then something clicks, and… BOOM.
Buy the Book
The Witness for the Dead
Adolin took off running toward the distant Tukari caravan, hand on the sheathed sword at his belt, holding it in place. … Barely breaking stride, Adolin grabbed the dangling reins as Gallant pulled up beside him. Adolin did an odd running hop, then hoisted himself into the saddle behind Maya, a maneuver that a part of Radiant’s brain refused to believe was possible.
A: And suddenly, we’re in action mode. Galloping Ryshadium, greatswords, Tukari assassins (or something), and Adolin up against twenty armed men—and not so much as a shield, much less Shardplate, to protect himself.
L: It is really fun and action packed! And… having taken horseback riding lessons when I was a kid and hauled myself into quite a few saddles, I’m with Radiant on this one specific quote. Adolin’s definitely some kind of superhero. (I know this is technically possible to do, but HOO BOY the upper body strength this boy’s gotta have!)
A: He really does! Consider the way we’re shortly going to see him wielding a greatsword, which is significantly heavier than a Shardblade, too. I’m suddenly questioning most of the artwork of Adolin.
Jeopardize the mission, or go save Notum on his own?
Jeopardize it how? he thought. You barely know what you’re doing here. The others can deliver some letters.
You’re nothing but a uniform and sword, Adolin. Use them.
A: While he’s obviously much more than that, it’s such an Adolin attitude, isn’t it? He’s such a funny mix of insecurity and blazing confidence: deeply uncertain of his ability to persuade the honorspren, but so confident in his fighting ability that he’s barely conscious of it. Not that he blithely assumes he can handle twenty men on his own; he knows it could go badly, but he also knows that if he makes the attempt, there’s a chance he can keep the Tukari distracted from Notum long enough for help to arrive.
L: He’s protecting those who cannot protect themselves. ::grin:: It’s really no wonder he and Kaladin get along. Come to think of it, Adolin displays a lot of the best aspects of the different Radiant orders. I wonder if eventually he might wind up becoming some sort of Super-Radiant, connected to all of the powers, or something…
A: There are so many ways that makes sense. I have no idea what the mechanics would be, but if you look at the “I will” statements that summarize the Ideals of the various orders, most of them are things we’ve actually commented on Adolin doing. Protecting, seeking justice, self-mastery, remembering (both those who are gone, and those who are overlooked), truth (both objective and personal), reaching full potential, freedom, being there when needed, uniting… they’re all things we see in Adolin. Huh.
As a young man—his head full of stories of Shardbearers defeating entire companies on their own—he’d assumed he could easily take on two or three opponents at once in a bout. He’d been sorely disabused of this notion. Yes, one man could stand against many with proper training—but it was never preferable.
L: Bless you, Brandon, for calling this out. I hate it in movies when one single swordsman takes out a crew of like… ten. This is not realistic, no matter how good you are! (Unless all your opponents respectfully line up to fight you one at a time like they usually do in movies…) I will say as a caveat, though, that having a spear or a greatsword would be a distinct advantage in a fight with a group of combatants with short swords, as Adolin is doing here. If you can manage to keep everyone at bay with a longer weapon, you might stand half a chance. Providing you can outlast them, stamina-wise…
A: And that’s the big question for him, right? Can he outlast them, at least long enough for the soldiers riding ordinary horses to catch up?
He wouldn’t win here because he outdueled anyone.
He’d win because his opponents lost.
A: And also, he’ll win (and/or they’ll lose) because a deadeye spren wielding a sword is terrifying, a determined Ryshadium can sound like a whole troop of horses, and an extremely good duelist with a greatsword can wreak major havoc on a bunch of untrained thugs with cutlasses and a couple of spears.
That was harder to do than people sometimes thought—even the sharpest blade could get caught in muscle or on the spine. Angle was everything, that and follow-through.
L: Again, huge kudos to Brandon for sticking to realism, even in a book where there are 6’ swords that can be summoned out of mist in ten heartbeats. It’s a fine line to walk, between fantasy and realism, to keep the readers engaged and willfully suspending their disbelief. And Brandon’s a master of that.
A: One of the things I loved about this scene was that, despite the magic swords inherent in The Stormlight Archive, the most badass battle of them all takes place using a plain old metal greatsword. (Not that greatswords aren’t incredible in their own right, but as Adolin notes elsewhere, most people dismiss the value of any “plain old metal” sword by comparison to Shardblades. It was really fun to see his mastery of any weapon—and supported by realism.
Also, that line about people being “intimidated by the casual brutality of a greatsword at work” is really potent.
L: And, as usual, I do love that the “everyman” of the series gets his fair share of awesome battles. It would be all too easy to just focus on the supernaturally enhanced characters, but the plain “ordinary” (if well-trained and inherently talented) swordsman gets his due, too. And how!
In the jumble, he ended up getting pressed by two men with swords, who forced in so close as he came out of a spin that he had to half-sword his greatsword.
L: OH MY GOD HE’S TALKING ABOUT HALF-SWORDING (Sorry… as a student of swordsmanship, seeing a fantasy author who has actually taken the time to research this just… makes me swoon.)
A: For those of us ignoramuses in the group, would you please pretty please explain what “half-swording” is? I mean… clearly it’s a method of using a greatsword in close quarters, but what do you do? What does it look like?
L: Basically it’s grabbing the sword halfway down the blade with one hand while you’re holding the hilt with the other. There’s historical precedent for it, and it just makes sense… the reach of a greatsword is awesome, but you can get much better control and power by half-swording, especially if you’re fighting in close quarters.
A: But Lyn… wouldn’t he cut himself, grabbing the blade like that?
L: Ah, I’m so glad you asked! You see… most swords meant for fighting armored combatants weren’t fully sharpened!
A: That seems dumb. How else do you slice off their limbs and things?
L: It does seem dumb… until you realize that swords weren’t really meant for slicing and dicing. When you’re fighting someone in full plate mail, what you actually want to do is dent in their armor. If you can manage to put a huge dent in the armor around someone’s arm, that’s going to hurt them considerably and they’re not going to be able to use that arm anymore. Immobilize enough of their limbs, and voila! You’ve won the battle. (We see shades of this with Shardplate, when the pieces of plate get damaged or run out of stormlight and stop functioning.) So, when you consider that these were actually bludgeoning weapons for the most part* (except the tip for stabbing through visors or into the weak points of joints), not sharpening the majority of the weapon makes a lot of sense!
*I will note that at least part of Adolin’s blade is definitely sharpened, as he’s beheading people left and right here. Historically, swords could have been sharpened the entire way, or just the foible (which is the ⅓ closest to the tip). There’s also the forte (⅓ closest to the hilt and where you want to be blocking) and the middle, which may have been blunt. You can also grab a sharpened part of a blade to half-sword, but you’re going to want to be careful doing so!
This has been your historical swordplay lesson of the day. If you’d like to see this in action, here’s a cool little video I found!
A: That’s… totally wild. “Things I never knew” for 200 emerald broams! I can totally see how that would give both leverage and close-quarters advantage, now. Thank you!
The handguard had come off, so Adolin hacked the man’s fingers as they wrapped the hilt of the weapon, dropping them. A foolish mistake; a good swordmaster always taught you to watch your hands.
L: Yuuuuup! This is 100% accurate. (And also why we always always wear gloves when doing stage combat.)
A: The ending of this chapter gives me goosebumps every time:
When Felt and the others arrived a few minutes later, they found a bloodied Adolin propping up Notum—dazed, but alive—surrounded by the corpses of what had once been overwhelming odds against him.
A: “The corpses of what had once been overwhelming odds against him.” Aaaaaah. I love that.
Spren and Shadesmar
A: Maya. Oh, Maya. She’s so amazing in this chapter.
But first, Notum:
Spren had been… cagey about whether they could be killed in Shadesmar. He’d seen them carry weapons, and during his earlier trip, Notum’s sailors had admitted that spren could be cut and would feel pain. “Killing” them involved hurting them so much that their minds broke and they became something akin to a deadeye.
A: That sounds horrible. Why would anyone want to do that? Obviously it’s happened often enough that they know what’s involved, but… Who? Why?
L: I mean… why would anyone want to kill a human, either? I imagine there would be similar motives at play.
A: In this particular case, we have some clues that we’ll talk about below, but why would it have happened enough to be a known phenomenon? Was it spren fighting spren? World-hoppers? Rosharan humans? Singers? Voidspren?
L: All of the above?
A: I’m not sure if I really want to know or not; it’s sickening.
Let’s go back to Maya.
“If I draw those men off, Maya,” he said, “can you get to Notum and cut him free? You could use one of the swords in the saddle sheaths.”
Her reply was a low growl, half a whine, and a tightening of her grip on his shoulder.
“It’s all right,” he said, prying her fingers free. “It’s not your fault. Stay here. Stay safe.”
A: Is her reply fear for herself? Or fear for him? Or frustration with her inability to act independently as much as he needs? My suspicion here is that she’d like to be able to do what he asks, but knows that once he’s busy, she won’t have enough volition to act—or at least not that way.
L: Poor Maya. No matter which of those is correct, it’s just so sad.
A: What she does instead, though, when he’s wounded and close to being surrounded…
He braced himself for the blade that would follow.
Instead he heard a low growl.
Startled, Adolin glanced over his shoulder to find that the figure he’d run into had put her back to his.
A: She may, for whatever reason, have been unable to go help Notum—but she was able to help Adolin! And she brought a sword. Because Maya. When he starts the kata with her—the kata she’d done innumerable times as a sword, and now daily as a person on this trip—I get chills every time I read it. She may or may not be prepared to actually strike at anyone, but a deadeye with a sword, a proper grip, and a powerful stance… who’s going to take that bet?
Relationships and Romances
It was hard to get any kind of acknowledgment out of Maya, but he did prefer to ask.
L: I just wanted to take a moment to say that I love how much importance Adolin places on consent. (Consent doesn’t only apply to romance! It’s important in friendships, too.)
“When we get there,” Adolin said to the horse, “stay out of the fight.”
Gallant snorted his disagreement.
L: I’m here for this buddy cop comedy.
A: I love the way Adolin assumes Gallant understands his every word, and how well it’s borne out. Pretty much like he treats Maya, come to think of it—except with Maya it’s sweet and thoughtful, and with Gallant it’s much funnier. But like Felt, I do want to know how Gallant knew Adolin needed him at the beginning of the scene. Have they formed some kind of bond that lets them sense one another? Is Maya part of this? Or the musicspren that makes Gallant a Ryshadium instead of merely a horse?
L: I absolutely think that the Ryshadium are way more sapient than anyone (other than Adolin) gives them credit for.
This was butchery. Fortunately, he had some good role models in that realm.
L: Subtle internal jab at dear old dad, there.
A: Yeah, I’m betting that was first on his mind… though there were plenty of others available too. I guess he’s too young to have actually seen Gavilar in battle, but Sadeas was right up there with Dalinar. Minus the Shardblade, though, so there’s that. Also, if I remember correctly, Sadeas enjoyed the brutality more, but Dalinar was better at it.
Bruised and Broken
You took special care of a soldier who had left part of herself on the battlefield.
L: We saw him displaying this towards Kaladin earlier in the book, too. I love that Adolin views Maya this way, and not just as some broken thing wandering around, like many of the spren seem to. They recognize that their fellow deadeyes were once people, but just sort of… leave them to their wanderings, instead of taking care of them like Adolin does.
A: It’s one of the few things I’ll say in praise of the honorspren at Lasting Integrity—they did try to care for the deadeyes. I’m not very impressed with the way they did it, but that’s mostly because they assumed the unchangeable nature of deadeyes.
Cosmere Connections
The foreign scout had been a stable, valuable part of the mission so far. Felt might not be quite as spry as he’d once been, but he seemed to have a sixth sense for traveling in unknown places.
A: Heh. Shadesmar isn’t quite as unknown to Felt as Adolin thinks… and Felt is far more foreign than Adolin knows! Still a good scout, no matter what the planet, I guess.
“Rusts,” Felt said, lowering his spyglass.
A: We know nothing about Felt’s various travels, other than that he was born on Scadrial early enough to be active there during Mistborn Era 1, and that he was on Roshar long enough that Dalinar trusted him to go along on the Nightwatcher trip. “Rusts,” however, indicates that he’s been back on Scadrial in between; that’s an exclamation/curse from Era 2. #thingsthatmakeyousayhmmmm
L: I totally glossed over this so I’m glad you pointed it out!
Humans
The Tukari humans had likely planned to jump Notum soon after his patrol left the port town, but had held off once Adolin’s group started going the same way. …
In the center of the group, a glowing figure lay huddled on the ground, bound in ropes. Over a dozen animated Tukari were repeatedly stabbing him with spears and swords.
A: This isn’t specifically addressed in the book, because none of the characters have seen each other for the duration, but it seems a given that these Tukari are here on commission from Ishar. This whole section of the road, essentially from Nameless to Lasting Integrity, follows the coastline of Tukar, so it’s easy for Ishar (since he can apparently open perpendicularities without a spren bond) to access this part of Shadesmar.
There’s no particular reason that Notum should have been a personal target for Ishar, though. My guess is that he sends his minions in to look for lone spren, or very small groups, which they can overpower and take captive back to Ishar. That doesn’t explain why they seemed to be trying to kill Notum rather than merely capturing him, but there’s obviously some reason. Maybe spren are more usable for Ishar’s experiments when they’re almost dead, or maybe he fought back too hard and they decided he needed killing instead.
L: I’m looking forward to finding out more about what the heck Ishar was up to.
We’ll be leaving further speculation and discussion to you in the comments, so have fun and remember to be respectful of the opinions of others! Next week, we’ll be back with chapter 36, in which Adolin convinces the honorspren to let him into Lasting Integrity.
Alice would just like to point out that northern Idaho is lovely this time of year.
Lyndsey had a lovely birthday this past weekend, and is so looking forward to the beginning of rehearsals for Robin Hood’s Faire. She has been a Sanderson beta reader since Words of Radiance and is also a fantasy author herself. She’s been doing occasional tie-in videos to the reread and silly cosmere cosplay vids on TikTok, or you can follow her on Facebook or Instagram.
Isn’t Era 2 after Stormlight #5?
confirmed Felt coins the term “rusts” 100%
not really, but maybe the term was around a little before the events we see in era 2? O
Random thoughts as I read this:
1) So half-swording is like choking up on the bat in baseball? On this note, 100+ years ago, two of baseball’s original Hall of Famers (Cobb, Wagner) batted with their hands apart (no one ever does this anymore, when a player chokes up now it is with both hands), which had to be similar to half-swording. Of course, this cuts down on your Power(ability to hit the ball far), but as with half-swording it improves your bat control (ability to hit the ball exactly where you want to). Not surprisingly Cobb and Wagner have two of the highest batting averages (hits per At Bat) ever, but neither was ever none for hitting home runs.
2) I have to ask Lyn if she reads or has read R.A.Salvatore and whether Drizzt is in any way realistic?
3) I assumed the Tukari are trying to incapacitate the spren with pain, knowing they cannot kill them but can make them basically huddle up in pain so that quit resisting.
Since Adolin is showing signs of all the orders, and bringing Maya back to herself, is it possible he is going to end up reconstituting Honor’s shard and becoming the new vessel for Honor?
@3 – Cobb and Wagner cared about based hits; that seems to be a dead art these days. You will be hard pressed to find one pro ball player that chokes up on the bat, even with two strikes.
I find Salvatore to be overly descriptive with his sword-fighting prose. It’s clear he knows his stuff, but that style of writing puts me to sleep. I think Robert Jordan was a genius in that regard. Instead of writing technically, he simply came up with flowery names for sword-fighting forms, thereby leaving it up to the imagination of the reader while using some beautiful prose.
Thanks for the sword lesson :) Given how heavy large swords are, I always assumed they wre mostly for bludgeoning and not really for fine slicing and dicing.
I’m kind of picturing Gallant as Maximus from Tangled now :)
Maybe “killing” the spren is Tukar’s way of anesthetizing spren for his experiments, so that they don’t resist or return to Shadesmar.
Regarding Ryshadium, I have been wondering since the last chapter reread, if they have a gemheart, does that mean they are natives of Roshar or that they came over with humans and evolved and adapted to such an extent that they bind spren? Which in turn helps them develop a bond with their humans enabling to understand them or react to their thoughts and needs?
Could Felt be one of the Ghostblood spies Mraize was referring to?
I have absolutely no knowledge of combat, but I did take a RAD class in college. The officer who taught it told us that men who attack women in groups actually do typically attack one at a time, so this tracked with the Tukari testing Adolin before attacking him in a group.
Adolin and Maya are the best! On my first read, I legitimately thought Adolin might die from his gut wound (I didn’t think about the honorspren allowing Godeke to heal him with their stormlight stores), so this chapter packed a mighty emotional punch for me.
I may be wrong, but I assumed Ishar may not care if the spren are alive or dead. If I remember correctly (very possible I don’t), all the ones we saw in the physical realm at the end of the book were dead. Do we really know if they need to be dead or alive for Ishar’s mysterious and extremely disturbing activities? I just figured he was cool with dead ones or was trying to wound them past the point of resistance, like dee said above.
The wrong half of the map is visible.
A quick shout-out to Shad Brooks of Shadiversity. Brandon brought him in as a consultant specifically to help with the accuracy of the fight scenes.
@3 As cool a Drizzt is, much of the fighting is not very realistic. Many of the moves he uses are the type of thing you see in a demonstration, but don’t actually work with a real opponent.
@6 A typical properly made great sword is only about 2 kilos (5 pounds) although they can be up to 4 kilos (10 pounds).
Honestly? I don’t want Adolin to become a radiant or a super radiant or anything. He’s proof that humans can be good beings just as they are, that they don’t nesscarily need the oaths to be better. The paths at this rate are more crutches and are more swearing to a single ideal, honor, justice, law, truth. Human beings are more than that, they are more than just Soren. I want Adolin to stay a regular old badass; he’s the only one we have left as a major character whose just a plain human. The rest, even Navani are all radiant. Maybe maya getting the super power boost will be better but I want Adolin to stay his normal human self. He was created for that role and the fact he does so well doesn’t mean we should just get him powers so he can be just like everyone else; that actually takes away his specialness.
Lyndsey: In your opinion, what author fantasy writers (besides Brandon) successfully write “sword fights well and yet manage to make them interesting to the uninitiated?” I am always on the look-out for good, but realistic sword fights in the fantasy books I read.
“You say that the power itself must be treated as separate in our minds from the Vessel who controls it.” Too bad Hoid ignored this advice when he meets Odium at the end of RoW. He never could have fathomed that Rayse would be killed and someone else take up the Shard of Odium without him first knowing. Even after he initially thinks there was something weird with Odium during his meeting.
Lyndsey. The only time it is somewhat realistic for a swordsman in a movie or book to take on a crew of swordsman is when they single swordsman has the position of being in a chokepoint so his attackers are limited in the ability for them to rush him. It also helps that in such circumstances, the lone swordsman is always much superior to his opponents. Go figure. While Adolin is superior to most, if not all of the Tukari, he is not in a defensible location. Thus, it is appropriate that Adolin takes a number of wounds, almost to the point that he does not survive.
Alice. I think Ishtar requires his Tukari to hurt the spren they attack just to the point that the spren’s mind will break. He wants them just close to the edge when Ishtar starts his experiments. Having the spren in such a condition will also make it easier to move the spren outside of Shadesmar.
Thanks for reading my musings,
AndrewHB
aka the musespren
This is one of those times when I feel out of sync with a fandom. I want ALL the worldbuilding, and often enjoy character-building, but I just find battles and other deadly violence boring and sad. I accept it as a ubiquitous feature of fantasy, but I read fantasy in spite of it, not because of it. I struggled to get though The Way of Kings on my first read, because of all the battle and massacre scenes.
@11 I totally agree. Especially since Adolin himself doesn’t want to become a radiant, may be because it may mean giving up Maya.
I agree about the art depicting Adolin makes him look too slim through the shoulders. He has to be more developed in that area after years of training and actual fighting.
Regarding the comment of why would a spren kill another spren: if they are manifestations of human thoughts and emotions it almost seems they’d have to have some killing instinct.
@@.-@ That’s a possibility, but like @11 said, I think that being “just” a leader – trying to figure out how to be useful when thrust into a war between literal m*********ing gods – is what makes Adolin such a compelling character. My money’s on him either ending up as an ambassador, between Urithiru, Shadesmar and the common people, or functioning entirely within the tower as a kind of neutral ground between the Orders to prevent infighting and settle disputes
@AndrewHB:
Lyn is far too modest to suggest it, but maybe you should check out her own novel?
Re: Felt–I was wondering about this! I’m reading Mistborn, and when I came across a minor character called Felt, I thought I remembered a minor character by the same name in Stormlight, and I said, “Hmm, I wonder…”
@13 AeronaGreenjoy my wife is the same way, for books and movies: “ok yeah they’re doing punchy/stabby/shooty, let me know who wins and how that developed the plot/characters”. I like the fight scenes in general so there’s probably some confirmation bias here, but often I feel like Brandon uses fight scenes to explain worldbuilding – how magic works, or how the existence of said magic/magitech makes it so certain combatants wouldn’t be ready for some scenarios. The first fight in Mistborn would be a classic example, but the duels in WoR and the early aerial battles in RoW lay out the rules of engagement that pay off later.
That said, a lot of times/authors the most important thing about the battle is just what it says about our characters that they engaged. Adolin rushing to save Notum, Maya joining tells us about their relationship and Maya’s burgeoning awakening so that it’s unexpected but understood when she steps up for him later in an arena where he’s less adept. It’s maybe my favorite part about Sanderson, there’s no “oh and as it turns out the big-bad’s wand doesn’t work against our otherwise hapless hero, cuz same phoenix!” (It’s also why it bugs me that we haven’t been taught how Vin could defeat Lord Ruler when she does it, only after)
@13,19 – I am the same way. I generally don’t find action scenes compelling, especially when they are just a blur of motion I can’t follow, and I’m not that into explosions, chases (I especially hate car chases), etc. There are some exceptions in movies with well stylized/choreographed sequences that are more artistic, or where something about the fighting is itself character development but for the most part (especially in books) I just don’t find it compelling like others do. Different strokes for different folks I guess :)
I don’t want Adolin to be a Radiant either – I like him how he is (and plus thematically I think it works better with Adolin as a normal guy).
@19 I know this maybe not the right place for this, but I don’t feel that vin’s victory was the same as Harry and Voldemort, if only because Sanderson did leave scattering of clues so that when she does beat him, it still makes sense even though they full explain later. The use of gold and the 11th metal and its relationship to each other, the journal, feruchemy. I think it’s all there when it became obvious what the gold bands were.. now if you’re talking about vin’s power up from the mist well, I chalk that up to foreshadowing more than same Phoenix wand! But anyway,yeah this battle is nesscairly because it establishes adolin’s honor to notim, everything involving Maya, so I think this one had proper set up and delivery
This chapter was the turning point of the book for me, where it stopped being slow, then slower and became more of a pleasant read.
I’ve said before that I’m in the “no radiant” camp for Adolin. I am quite annoyed with Brandon’s stated plan that human beings will stop mattering in this story, and only demigods will affect the plot going forward. (Note that I’m deliberately being hyperbolic.)
I posted this to the stormcellar on fb yesterday, but will ask here as well. what would happen to Maya/shardblade if Adolin had died here? would she appear on roshar’s equivalent place? could she appear where adolin entered shadesmar? woukd she NOT appear at all, but be lost to the physical real
My personal pet theory here is that in KoW Dalinar is going to use Ishar’s Blade to give Adolin his bond to the Stormfather, make Adolin the new Bondsmith so that even if Dalinar loses the contest the remanants of Honor’s name and power will stay out of Odium’s reach.
This was a great chapter for Adolin and Maya! But here is something that hasn’t been mentioned so far – Ryshadium are supposed to be bonded to the music spren, right? But Gallant’s spren isn’t hanging around him in Shadesmar, so where is it? IMHO, that’s proof that Ryshadium have developed gemhearts and that spren trapped in gemhearts don’t/can’t assume their cognitive form even while in Shadesmar. This might even have some importance for getting around the problem of transporting spren out of Rosharan system. Was Gavilar’s mysterious box mimicing this process?
Aeshdan @24:
I am against the office of the Bondsmith becoming hereditary. People who objected to the fact that so many Kholin became Radiants are going to explode if something like this happens. And much as I love Adolin, I would dislike it too. I am all for Adolin ressurecting Maya and becoming an Edgdancer, though.
I would have been OK with Adolin remaining a “badass normal” after WoR, if the narrative had evolved in a different direction and there had been significant tension between the Radiants and the unpowered people on anti-Odium side. There could have been a lot of meaty plot and character drama with King Adolin navigating the difficult terrain between cooperating with the Radiants headed by own father and standing up to them as a leader of normals. But it wasn’t the direction taken, so…
I miss poster Gepeto’s input on this chapter – they usually brought a lot of depth to Adolin discussions…
I am still around… I read every one every week, but I don’t have much to contribute.
I cannot lie. I am not a fan of how Adolin has been evolving as a character. It isn’t I disliked his chapters nor his arc, I loved them and the Shadesmar time was my favorite part in RoW, but I am not necessarily enthralled with the implications for his future growth. Reading everyone made me realize I was very much alone in my camp so I chose to stay away from the discussions and let you guys have it between yourself.
It is hard to explain. Adolin has been one of my favorites for so long and I don’t mean to infer I wasn’t satisfied with his story arc in RoW, I was, it’s just… I don’t find it adds much water to the mill. I find there isn’t enough depth with his character, there always is this dim impression of depth, as illustrated with the recent chapters, but in the end, the character always comes through as being positive, optimistic, and endlessly supportive. Those implied depths rarely have lasting narrative implications, they get mentioned, then they disappear. I get, reading all the comments, many of you absolutely love this, but it lacks a human factor for me. It keeps on lacking… something. Adolin read like an angel fallen from the sky and he has so few weaknesses nor flaws, I just cannot say he’s as interesting as he once was as a character.
Back in WoR, Adolin had edges, angst, he had done a very bad thing for good reasons, there was this slowly brewing conflict with his dad, he had big relationships issues, he was the only one of his family the sprens hadn’t picked despite being the hardest worker of them all… He was so interesting! And now… The conflict never really happened outside the one conversation, most of it being in the “time gap”, his relationship issues fix themselves in such a perfect way, I ended wondering why it never worked before: Adolin is so tolerant, patient, selfless, supportive (and perfect) he should have had zero issues with relationships! The story with the sword was cute and adorkable, I really loved it, but he was 14. 14 years old boys will be awkward with girls. Also, the sprens don’t pick Adolin because it turns out he doesn’t want to be a Radiant, not interested, doesn’t care, won’t give up Maya, but won’t become her Knight either. Like @25 Isilel is saying had the story evolve in a manner where there was tension between Radiants and non-Radiants, Adolin’d be more interesting. Had the question of the “Why him and not me” been raised, wow, that would have made a great arc.
Hence, the whole story felt like an uncolored version of what it could have been. It isn’t bad, I did enjoy reading it, but am I still interested in having Adolin become a Radiant or stay the “badass normal”? Neither sounds interesting right now because Adolin still is too perfect. In this chapter, he fights 20 men, kills them all, and only has a superficial wound to show… all of you loved the chapter and I did love it. It definitely was one of the Sanderson best-written fights in this book, much better than the Kaladin lashing scenes, but Adolin winning just because he was “scary” was a bit far-fetched for me. So that’s it.
The implications of the fight, Adolin thinking he has to forfeit his life for anyone he meets sets a dangerous precedent, but he always wins. Adolin simply never loses. There could have been hordes of great stuff to write about going this tangential, how Adolin thinks his life doesn’t matter, how he thinks Notum matters more than him, how he constantly feels he has to sacrifice himself, thinking that is his sole purpose, always hoping, one day, it’ll be enough, that’s great, fantastic even, but it gets no additional focus within the rest of the book, so the story goes back to being moot and Adolin falls back towards being an angel with little to no weaknesses nor flaws. So why bother?
Hence, that’s why I haven’t been commenting much… I am not sure I like where the story is heading anymore. I don’t find it was the most interesting trajectory for Adolin’s character so whether he becomes an Edgedancer or not, both sound… uninteresting? The character simply doesn’t have enough an edge left for his future arc to carry much impact nor, in my case, interest. If I had to pick, I’d rather he becomes an Edgedancer, because the whole “I don’t want to become a Radiant” sounds a bit like “I won’t care about this because if I do I may get disappointed” to be the endgame, but his relationship with Maya doesn’t interest me much given how it has been written so far. It is yet another mostly one-direction relationship where Adolin is the selfless giver and the other is the endless victim/taker. It isn’t a bad relationship, I don’t mean to infer such relationships are uninteresting, but all of Adolin’s relationships have been this way so it makes this one redundant. Too much of one thing can make the one thing tastes bad. It is just too much the same. Adolin is already selflessly caring for Shallan, Kaladin, Renarin, Dalinar, did we need to add Maya on top of it all? Did he need yet another “giver” relationship for his character?
This more or less summarizes my thoughts and explains why I have chosen to stay mostly quiet. I didn’t feel many of you would connect with the above and that’s OK, I am not asking anyone to, I understand, but that’s why I haven’t been posting much.
Still, I do enjoy reading Alice, Lyndsey, and everyone else’s comments every week. It’s fun to see all of you guys around and to read you all.
Sorry for the lack of interaction… my internet has been gyppy for most of the last week, and it’s been too frustrating to try to do anything. Hopefully it will cooperate enough for me to make a couple of comments tonight.
Austin @1 – You’re correct that MB Era 2 takes place after SA5, and my wording was poor. What I meant was that the exclamation “Rusts!” seems to have developed sometime between Era 1 and Era 2. I thought it seemed likely that Felt went world-hopping shortly after the end of Era 1, but spent enough time back on Scadrial over the course of time that he picked up on the usage. An alternative possibility would be that, as yep @2 suggests, Felt coined the term after the end of Era 1 but before leaving Scadrial, and it caught on more widely over the 300 years since then.
sebastianelgar@@.-@ – The possibility of Adolin becoming Honor’s new vessel has occurred to me, for basically the reason you suggest, and I’m not sure what to make of it. My biggest reason for thinking it’s not likely is that I assume something that big would be in Brandon’s internal outlines well in advance, but he’s been known to say that (paraphrased) Adolin is the only major character whose arc isn’t already planned. While every character develops in their own way to some extent, most of them have their overall arc already sketched out, and any modifications to the plan are just in the details. Adolin … isn’t. He’s free. He doesn’t have plot armor; he actually could die a meaningless death trying to protect a haughty honorspren. (FWIW, that’s one of the reasons I loved this plot so much and it worked so well for me: on a first read, there was literally no reason to assume he would survive this trip. I’m glad he did, but it made the tension much more real for me. As far as I knew, he really could have died fighting the Tukari; for that matter, he could actually remain in Lasting Integrity for the rest of the series. I doubt he will, but he could.)
All of which is to say, I doubt Brandon would do anything that Cosmere-significant… but I don’t know it. It could be that the way Adolin’s character grows in the next book will make him the right person to take up Tanavast’s role, and whoever was originally planned for it will just have to do something else. Or, of course, it might not happen at all. And with his character so unplanned, I have no idea where he’ll end up next. Could be pretty much anything, from dying to remaining a mortal badass to becoming Radiant to becoming a Vessel. Anything is possible.
Birgit @9 – Yeah, I’m not sure what the deal is with the map this week. It’s… weird.
@several re: the Ryshadium… As I understand it, the horses originally came from Ashyn with the humans, but somehow some of them evolved in ways peculiar to Roshar. Brandon has RAFOd the question of whether they have gemhearts, but they do have some kind of spren bond. When they first come into Shadesmar on this trip, Adolin notices that
I personally take that to be the bonded musicspren, though it’s not confirmed. But that kind of bond with a spren may be what makes it possible for them to also bond with a particular human. I think.
@Wetlandernw, #27: that quote about Gallant is very reminiscent of Szeth leaving a glowing after image behind (in Lift’s weird Cognitive-Realm-Vision) when he moves.
Carl @28 – Isn’t it, though? Since we don’t have any indication that Gallant died and had his soul stapled back on, I’m assuming it’s not quite the same situation. However… Vasher refers to Szeth as essentially a Type 2 Invested entity, and it’s the hyper-Invested soul “nailed back onto the body” that we see in an afterimage. So I’m guessing that what we see on Gallant in Shadesmar is the Investiture of the bonded musicspren. (I wonder if someone like Lift could see it in the Physical realm like she can Szeth, where others can only see it in the Cognitive realm.)
Deep speculation time.
It’s the “Cognitive” Realm, which means “the realm of thought.” So, does Szeth perceive his location as where his body is (say, the eyes he’s seeing with) or where the stapled-on soul is (theoretically, where perception is happening)?