Welcome back to the Rhythm of War Reread, O My Chickens and Peeps! As we wrap up the second set of Interludes this week, we’re back in the head of good old King T—and it’s a weird place these days. It’s an odd blend of promising insight and frightening foreshadowing, and we have mixed feelings about it.
Reminder: We’ll be discussing spoilers for the entirety of the series up until now. If you haven’t read ALL of the published entries of The Stormlight Archive (this includes Edgedancer and Dawnshard as well as the entirety of Rhythm of War), best to wait to join us until you’re done.
In this week’s discussion there are spoilers from Mistborn (both Eras) in both Overall Reactions and Oaths Spoken, so if you haven’t read it, watch for the “MISTBORN SPOILER” flag and be prepared to look away.
Heralds: Nalan (Nale), Herald of Justice; Skybreakers; Just/Confident; Role: Judge. Palah (Paliah); Truthwatchers; Learned/Giving; Role: Scholar.
A: Nale and Paliah? On a bet, they’re there for the two people most dangerous to Odium—at least as Taravangian evaluates it today. Paliah probably represents her Truthwatcher Renarin, who sees glimpses of the future and is therefore unpredictable for Odium. Nale, then, would represent Szeth, who is doubly dangerous in being hidden by Renarin’s unpredictability and in the sword he bears.
Icon: The Vine King, for an emotional-Taravangian POV.
A: I’m still fascinated by this icon, with its different implications depending on which way it’s flipped. This Interlude, in which Taravangian thinks about how it’s more common these days to be “not particularly smart,” has the Vine face upright, looking very mournful indeed as he leans on his staff. Is this his Cultivation side as opposed to his Honor side? Or as opposed to his Odium side? Or are the Shards not relevant to the two aspects?
Chapter Recap
WHO: Taravangian
WHERE: Emul
WHEN: 1175.4.6.3—The Everstorm day, when the Urithiru invasion began.
(Note: For the “when” notations, we are using this wonderful timeline provided by the folks at The 17th Shard.)
RECAP: Taravangian waits out the Everstorm in his stormwagon, hoping maybe Odium won’t demand that he order his troops to betray the coalition, and reflecting on his curse and boon. Odium comes to him in a vision, and spends a little too much time boasting; Taravangian realizes that he can be manipulated to some extent, and maneuvers him into displaying again his grand plans for Roshar. While Odium seems to be unaware of it, there is a small portion of the display—around the name of Renarin Kholin—where the details are blotted out by some scar, and Taravangian discovers that his own name is being covered by the scar as well. He also observes that Szeth’s name is nearly covered by the scar, and that Odium seems to have some fear of Szeth and the sword he bears. As Odium departs, Taravangian begins to have new hope that Odium can be defeated somehow, because the thing he most fears is also becoming invisible to him.
Overall Reactions
A: Much as I don’t trust Taravangian, and haven’t for years, this was still an exciting chapter. His realization that Odium is not, in fact, omniscient—that he can be manipulated into showing off as if he were an ordinary human—is actually kind of hopeful. (Of course, it’s scary later, but for now, just exciting and hopeful.) Cultivation’s plans and schemes are… deep.
P: I’m definitely not on Team Taravangian; I do not believe that the end justifies the means, though he certainly feels that they do. Still, it was something to see him discern that which Odium wasn’t even aware of. And… I still fear that Cultivation made a mistake with Taravangian.
A: Yeah… I worry about that. It’s possible she’s getting what she wanted, which would be very much contrary to what I expected of her. But it’s my tentative opinion that she made a mistake, and I sure hope she can find a way to recover before Taravangian does too much damage.
Buy the Book
Along the Saltwise Sea
Smart Taravangian had failed. Besides, he hadn’t just been made intelligent. He’d been given a boon and a curse. Intelligence on one side. Compassion on the other. When smart, he assumed the compassion was the curse. But was it really? Or was the curse that he could never have both at once?
A: And… we don’t know. For one thing, we don’t know if Cultivation even bothers with the “boon and curse” balance the way Nightwatcher does; she makes her own rules, and when she intervenes directly, I don’t think it’s wise to assume that we can identify a specific boon and a specific curse. (I mean… look at Lift. She may not appreciate all aspects of her gift, but I can’t yet find a “curse” in what she was given. The closest I can come is that she wasn’t granted her desire to never change, but that’s not a curse, it’s just a wish unfulfilled. Paige, do you have thoughts on that?)
P: Yeah, Cultivation’s motives with Lift are still a point of speculation. We essentially know why she did what she did with Dalinar and Tarvangian, but not with Lift.
A: Exactly. What is she up to?
In any case, I can understand Taravangian’s two ways of seeing the balance, and if either of his guesses are correct, I think it’s the latter. However, the way things turn out later, I think he’s wrong on both counts. I think the separation was deliberately intended by Cultivation for almost exactly what it did: It gave him the “smart days” when he was able to devise incredible plans with sheer logic and insight, and it then gave him “compassionate days” in which to consider the effect of his plans. I say almost because, if I’m right, the point was to use the compassionate days to examine the plan and find mitigations for the worst of the side effects. If that’s true, his boon/curse mentality limited the intended use of his compassionate days, so that instead of examining the Diagram in a more humane light, he simply wasted those days—not to mention the days when he had a more balanced view.
P: I like the thought of his compassionate days being intended to consider the effects of the plans and actions made on his smart days. But he assumes that his “dumb” days are the expected curse when they very well could have been intended to temper who he was on his smart days.
On that day [when he’d created the Diagram], he’d been a god. On the day when he’d created this fragment a year ago, he’d considered himself a prophet to that god.
A: This is where I think he mistook the proper balance. He considered that the perfect version of himself, and assumed that it was 100% correct—or at least 99.99% corrected, and just needed a little tweaking from the death rattles. If he’d thought of the two sides as complementary, maybe he could have used the super-compassionate days to consider the worst potential side effects, and then used his more balanced days to find ways to correct for the worst of those while still accomplishing the primary goals.
But he didn’t.
P: And this is one reason for my extreme dislike of Taravangian. He venerated that version of himself who created the Diagram and disliked each day that he wasn’t that “brilliant” person again. Nothing was as good as that one day in his mind, and so every other version of himself—especially when he’s compassionate—is inferior. It says a lot when one thinks their emotions are a curse.
A: Doesn’t it, though? He worshipped the Taravangian of that one day, and that’s just gotta be wrong. Which is probably part of why his realizations about Odium are so rich, here. Probably my favorite moment in this chapter, with all its ups and downs, is when Taravangian gets An Idea and actually manipulates Odium:
Hundreds of thousands of panes of writing, hovering as if on invisible glass. This was what Odium had shown him a year ago; it was intended to impress Taravangian with how thorough and extensive Odium’s planning was. And Taravangian had managed to tempt him into showing it off, like a prized stallion.
Storms… Odium could be tricked. By dumb Taravangian.
P: I rather think that Odium is just so arrogant that he underestimates Taravangian, even in his “dumb” state.
A: It’s almost funny, because Odium claims “passion” as his Intent—but he, too, thinks Taravangian is stupid and weak on his compassionate days. I guess we can’t accuse him of being consistent, eh?
If Odium could be lonely, if he could boast, if he could be tricked… he could be afraid. Taravangian might be dumb, but when dumb, he understood emotion.
Odium had incredible power; that was clear. He was a god, in power. But in mind? In mind he was a man. What did Odium fear?
A: This is one of the things I really, really love about what Sanderson did with the Shards. MISTBORN SPOILER!
My initial frustration, after reading Mistborn Era 1, was that IMO, humans are simply not capable of being gods. I was… a bit irritated by a mortal becoming God, so as much as I loved the books, I was not thrilled with the ending. In further books, now, we’re seeing problems with humans holding that kind of power, and… well, I love it. Their powers might be vast, but their human nature is still there, and it still creates the same kinds of weaknesses. Sazed might have the ability to see past and future, the ability to manipulate physics, abilities beyond mortal ken… but he’s still got a human nature, and there are things he can’t entirely figure out. And of course, as I realized with the development of the Cosmere, he’s not God—he’s merely a god.
P: Not only is their human nature still there, their human weaknesses are still there. They may have phenomenal cosmic power but they’re still existing in a relatively itty-bitty living space.
END SPOILER
So here we are with Odium—the powers are nearly infinite, but the mind is still human, and Rayse still fears the possibility of being bested by something. And that something… well, for once I’ll grant that Rayse is smart to be afraid:
Szeth. The Assassin in White. …
Szeth.
The sword.
Odium feared the sword.
…
He seemed… not weak—a being who could spawn storms and destroy entire nations would never be weak. But vulnerable.
A: This made me SO excited!! I had no idea where Sanderson was going with this… Silly me. I should have been terrified.
Still, it was exciting to watch Taravangian figure out Odium’s fear. And then he proceeded with the betrayal, because the end justifies the means. Ugh.
P: Yeah, terrified is what I am now! I’m afraid that T has one up on Dalinar and that he’s going to be blindsided.
He brought out the spanreed board, oriented it, and positioned the pen. When he finally got a response, he wrote out two simple words.
Do it.
P: And thus is his betrayal complete.
Spren and Shadesmar
The golden expanse faded, depositing Taravangian on the floor of his stormwagon. He opened his hand, finding the fragment of the Diagram in it. But… the other pieces were gone. They had vanished when the vision ended. That stunned him, for it implied that he had truly been in another place. That he’d taken the papers there with him, but only this one piece remained when he returned.
A: What do you think? Do the visions happen in Shadesmar? Or in the Spiritual realm? Or can a Shard create another temporary “realm” where they can take a person, either physically or just cognitively as they choose? What does this imply about Dalinar’s Honor visions, or his conversations with Odium?
P: This surprised me because I just assumed the vision took place in their own head, like with Dalinar’s visions in Words of Radiance. He was there in the physical realm, acting out what was happening in his head, but this vision with Taravangian is different. He was physically somewhere else and the destruction of his remaining pages of the Diagram was real. It’s eerie.
Relationships and Romances
He held up the pages and read through them, squinting without his spectacles. The cramped handwriting listed instructions, spliced together with original pieces of the Diagram. Most of it detailed the ploy to unseat Dalinar by the careful reveal of secrets—a plan designed to bring the poor man to his knees, to turn the coalition against him. In the end, that ploy had only galvanized the Blackthorn—and increased his suspicion of Taravangian. Before that day, they had been friends.
P: It boggles me that Taravangian could consider Dalinar to have been a friend even as he was plotting his literal downfall.
A: Right? It’s awful. If you ever thought him a friend, how could you devise and execute this plan?
Bruised and Broken
He so wished he could be smart. When had he last been intelligent? Not brilliant—he’d given up on feeling that way again—but merely smart? The last time had been… storms, over a year ago. When he’d planned how to destroy Dalinar.
A: And… that takes away some of the excitement, when I think about it, because that whole plan was vicious and terrible. It’s nice to see he’s not exactly proud of it, or pleased by the knowledge that he betrayed a friend. He’s actually kind of glad it didn’t work, it seems, so I guess there’s that?
P: I still have no compunction to feel pity toward the man. He really shouldn’t continue to see himself as Dalinar’s friend since he had tried to have him killed – twice! – and was plotting his downfall the entire time.
A being unburdened by empathy, capable of seeing straight to the heart of matters. Yet also a being who couldn’t understand the context of his efforts. … Smart Taravangian knew the how but not the why.
A: This is one of the few times since the end of The Way of Kings that I almost started to like Taravangian again. It’s kind of a theme for us today, I guess, but this belated recognition that maybe Smart Taravangian wasn’t All That is… better than we’ve gotten from him for a long time.
All this, he thought, to save a handful of people? He’d preserved Kharbranth by selling out the rest of humankind. He was certain Odium could not be defeated. And so, saving a remnant was the only logical path. Right now, that seemed pathetic.
Smart Taravangian considered himself so brilliant, so masterful, but this was the best he could do?
A: Exactly!
P: This is the problem with Taravangian: He convinces himself that his end of preserving Karbranth justifies the means by which he accomplished that feat.
A: I think that’s the redeeming aspect of this Interlude—he finally questions that assumption. It may only be temporary, but for once he recognizes the absolute lameness of this approach.
Oaths Spoken, Powers Awakened
Why specifically can’t the Diagram see Renarin Kholin? the notes read. Why is he invisible?
Smart Taravangian had moved on quickly from this question. Why waste time on something minor that you couldn’t solve? Dumb Taravangian lingered on it, remembering a later time when he’d been visited by Odium. Odium had shown Taravangian something, and Renarin … Renarin Kholin had appeared as a chain of blacked-out futures, unseeable.
A: This could be wrong, of course, but it does seem reasonable that since Renarin Truthwatcher can see potential futures, he can choose how to react to the possibilities—and that makes him harder (impossible?) for Odium to anticipate. MISTBORN SPOILER:
It’s a bit like burning atium on Scadrial: One person burning it can see into the future and know what their opponent will do, but if the opponent burns it too, it negates the advantage.
P: Yeah, I’m not sure if it’s just the Truthwatcher thing or if it might also have something to do with his particular spren. Or… both.
END SPOILER
…Taravangian saw something half-consumed in the black scar.
His own name. Why? What did it mean?
I’m close to Renarin, Taravangian realized. Everyone close to the boy has their future clouded. Perhaps that was why Odium was wrong about Dalinar.
Taravangian felt a surge of hope.
Odium couldn’t see Taravangian’s future right now.
A: I think at the first read, I hoped this would mean Taravangian would find a way to rejoin the coalition against Odium. Sigh. It could never be that straightforward, could it?
P: Taravangian wasn’t about to try such a thing and risk his precious Karbranth. Plus, with his attempted murter of Dalinar and then his betrayal naturally lead to a big boss fight with him. Can’t let Dalinar battle tired and sickly Odium, can we?
Geography, History, and Cultures
“Could you not spare them?” Taravangian asked, tears in his eyes. “The people of Jah Keved, the Iriali, those who come to you willingly. Why waste their lives?”
“Oh, I will not waste them, Taravangian,” Odium said. “Their lives will be spent as they expect—in war, in glory, in blood. I will give them exactly what they’ve been asking for. … They will fight in the war they’ve been promised since birth, and though it will consume and destroy them, they will enjoy it. I shall make certain of that fact.”
…
Odium still intended to use all of humankind as his frontline troops, once he won Roshar. He would throw their lives away, turn them into slaves focused on fueling his war for the heavens. He would use their blood to preserve the singers, which Odium saw as more valuable troops.
A: I’m stunned at how Odium’s plan matches the Vorin beliefs in the battle for the Tranquiline Halls and all that. The question is… did Odium have a hand in crafting the whole religion? Or is he just taking advantage of it?
We’ll be leaving further speculation and discussion to you in the comments, so have fun and remember to be respectful of the opinions of others! Next week, we’ll be back to launch into Part Three, as Chapter 44 picks up right where we left off with Kaladin.
Alice is a Sanderson beta reader and administrator of two fandom facebook groups. She lives in the Pacific Northwest with her husband and two kids, with extended family out back. She’s currently writing from smoky Montana, where she’s been visiting her sisters.
Paige resides in New Mexico, of course. She works full-time, goes to school full-time, beta reads part-time, mods or admins 3 Stormlight-themed Facebook groups part-time, and writes part-time. She wishes sleep wasn’t necessary because there’s just too storming much to do! You can find her writing at www.amazon.com/Paige-Vest/e/B0797Z37XV and www.patreon.com/paigevest.
I thought the point of Taravangian’s boon and curse was to prepare him for when he became Odium. Another clever move on Cultivation’s part.
It would take someone both intelligent and compassionate to untangle the mess Roshar is in, and of course Taravangian can never be that man. Which adds yet another reason, in addition to the ones you articulated above, to wonder what Cultivation was thinking.
If you make someone alternately smart-but-unfeeling and compassionate-but-dim, surely it should have been obvious that the smart version was likely to be the dominant personality? The smart version created a set of intelligence tests to ensure that a less smart Taravangian would have limited authority, but it doesn’t seem to have ever occurred to the opposite personality to create compassion tests to limit the power of unfeeling Taravangian (where are Voigt and Kampff when you need them?) Smart Taravangian can think rings around Compassionate Taravangian; the outcome was almost inevitable (at least for Taravangian; other people might – but, I suspect, almost certainly wouldn’t – turn out differently). If Cultivation knew anything about Taravangian’s personality (which she surely must have, to perform the transformation in the first place), or even about human nature in general, she should have been able to predict that. Especially if she knew that he was likely to see it in boon-plus-curse terms, and inevitably conclude that the dim version of himself was the curse. Did she really expect the two sides of his personality to be properly balanced? Why didn’t she foresee this? Or did she?
All of which makes me wonder just how long a game Cultivation is really playing here.
(…And of course the real answer is “another six books long”.)
Definitely some questioning of Cultivation; poor planning? Ulterior motive? Terrifying genius? We’ll find out!
Mr. T had lost all sympathy from me by now, but I remember feeling hopeful at the hints that Odium could be beaten here. I didn’t make the connection at the time that it was Rayse who could be beaten, rather than the power of the Shard, though…
Alice, to your last question about Odium and Vorinism, my guess is that he’s just taking advantage of the Vorin belief about the battle for the Tranquiline Halls. Vorinism is a really interesting religion that makes a lot of sense given the history of Roshar. The people of Roshar went through so many Desolations fighting (and almost being destroyed) and being “saved” by the Heralds. It would make sense that people would develop a religion that would provide an explanation for all that violence (humankind has spent most of its existence of Roshar fighting, so having a religious justification behind it – the battle for the Tranquiline Halls – would bring people some peace. We love having reasons behind our suffering, after all).
I can’t remember exactly when Vorinism came into existence relative to the last desolation. Was Odium even free enough to influence the doctrine of a religion? (SPOILER: we know Odium couldn’t pull the same stunt as Ruin did by changing texts and the like, so I’m not even sure Odium really could have done much to influence the religion all the way over on Braize ). Given Odium’s relative limitations after the last desolation, my assumption is Vorinism developed outside of his influence (though, I’d say Vorinism was influenced by the exisence of the Thrill and Shardblades and whatnot). He’s just gotten kinda lucky that Vorinism has focused so much on war, so he’s taking advantage of that religious propensity towards battle and violence.
Also, rereading this interludes is fascinating (and terrifying) now that we know about T-Odium. I have no idea why Cultivation thought that Taravangian would be the best option to take up Odium’s shard and I fear she’s made a terrible mistake. It’s gonna be interesting to learn more about her and her motives.
I’m also excited to see how T-Odium interacts with the other Shards. I don’t think he’ll follow the same path as R-Odium and destroy Shards like he did. I do think he’ll do something worse (not sure what yet!). It’ll also be interesting and nerve-wracking to see T-Odium interact with Autonomy (that’s gonna be a big clash)
Re: Cultivation’s motives
She’s all about natural growth. That doesn’t always mean bunnies and kittens. Mostly because Roshar doesn’t have either one of those things, but I digress.
It’s like that old joke about “all natural” being synonymous with “healthy”: You know what else is all natural? Bears.
Was it mentioned in Oathbringer? When T was too smart and had zero compassion as revealed by the daily testing, he was only permitted to work on the Diagram, but not take administrative decisions. The precaution was apparently justified on several occasions, though we are only told of 2-
1) He wanted to sterilize all the people of low intelligence (or was it poor?).
2) He ordered the child chorus to be summarily executed.
Of course, he pretended to be just dumb enough to be allowed to rule eventually.
The humans on Odium’s side aren’t Vorin. Doesn’t Odium know the differences between different human cultures? The Alethi are the warrior kingdom, other parts of Roshar don’t care as much about war.
Kefka 5: good point about Cultivation’s ultimate motives. That’s the nice things about the Shards; you can figure out at least their overarching motivation from their name. I’m just curious how the creation of T-Odium is gonna do anything for natural growth? Unless Cultivation is trying to cultivate some chaos or something. Just like bears aren’t healthy, neither is Taravangian as Odium (imo).
birgit 7: Jah Keved is Vorin! IIRC, Jah Keved, Alethkar, New Natanan, Karbranth, and Herdaz (I think) are all some version of Vorin. But even the rest of Roshar is more warrior-y than Earth (Kaladin talked about how he saw war across all of Roshar during one of the times he had a vision during a highstorm). Alethkar is definitely the most warrior of all the warrior kingdoms, but they aren’t the only one.
Do we know that taking up the shard of Odium has overridden Taravangian’s gift from Cultivation? Could it be that the last book will see the Knights Radiant against an Odium that’s periodically paralysed by overwhelming empathy for the people he’s oppressing?
A lot of people question “What was Cultivation thinking?” I think she was planting seeds. Not all seeds sprout, not all plants flourish. Maybe Taravangian is not following her ultimate plan. Maybe he is, but needs to take the looooong way there.
I’m just wondering, what the muffins are TOdium’s motives now? All he was doing was to save all of humankind and now he has that power. He could stop the fused and probably the singers as well. So what’s his goal now? From this perspective Cultivation’s plan makes sense. Give the guy who wants to save everyone the power to save everyone? Seems kinda obvious. So now I just want to know where TOdium goes from here because all his goals have been reached or at least his had the power to reach them.
On the subject of the visions and if he is “really” there: unclear.
We know that various magics affecting physical transformations work by touching the spiritual realm (though I’m not certain on soul casting actually since we see interaction with spren of objects there) so we should be unsurprised that Odium tearing up the spiritual paper affects the real paper if he wants it to.
Since at the end Mr T uses Nightblood to kill Rayse it seems likely this is the spiritual realm rather than a product of Rayse’s mind (a cognitive plane)
In retrospect, I guess that it is obvious that Renarin only became hidden to Odium after Renarin bonded Glys. I never made the connection until Paige and Alice’s summary that Renarin is hidden to Odium because Renarin can view the future. Once Rlain bonds Tumi, then Rlain should now be hidden to TOdium as well. Rlain is a Truthwatcher bonded with an Enlightened mistspren, and Rlain, like Renarin, can see the future. The key is not that Renarin is a Truthwatcher. Other Truthwatchers cannot see the future. Only those who are bonded with an Enlightened mistspren
In Books 6-10, I hope Brandon gives some PoV scenes from Cultivation, even if it is an Interlude. I believe she had some glimpse of the future where she saw an opportunity for Rayse to be defeated in such a way that would result in the death of the Vessel and someone new could pick up the Shard Odium. My only question is will Cultivation come to regret orchestrating Taravangian to be in a position to pick up the Shard. TOdium may wind up being more a threat to Cultivation than ROdium was. We will have top wait and find out.
I wonder if Taravangian could have been so intelligent one day that he faked being very compassionate (thus limited intelligence) and would have been able to outsmart ROdium. To be clear, I am not saying that as written, this is what happened. Rather, given the Taravangian’s gift, would it have been possible for this scenario to play out. And if it had, how would the story have changed.
Another question (although this may be more appropriate for the end of the book when Taravangian actually picks up the Shard Odium): now that Taravangian is TOdium, will he still be subject to the boon/curse Cultivation gave him? If so, then Cultivation still has her “roots” in TOdium.
Alice. You capitalized the word “Idea”. In the Cosmere, what is the term “Idea?”
Thanks for reading my musings.
AndrewHB
aka the musespren
@P: I know you know this, but it might be relevant to mention that apotheosis (becoming a god) is a very important aspect of Mormon theology. Many Latter-Day Saints believe that the God of the Bible, after the Book of Genesis, is not the Creator, but a human being who has undergone apotheosis.
I don’t see him as thinking he is Dalinar’s friend, so much as wishing he could be.
Cultivation (the word) does not mean “natural” growth. It’s guided and controlled growth. A “cultivated” plant is maize, not teosinte.
“I sure hope she can find a way to recover before Taravangian does too much damage.”
At this point, I’m expecting Taravangian to be the final boss fight of the Cosmere, possibly with a corrupted Dalinar at his side. :(
@14 – wasn’t it A who said the bit about gods? but that’s still interesting to know :)
@11StormLordZeus – Taravangian’s goals change once he has the Odium shard. He initially started wanting to save manking on Roshar (or at least claims to want that). Once he becomes TOdium he has the power to save mankind on Roshar, but then decides he needs to save everyone everywhere in the Cosmere. And of course to ‘save’ them all he needs to rule the Cosmere first…
This is why I think Cultivation made a serious mistake arranging things so that T gets the Odium shard – he might say he wants to save everyone, but his version of save looks a lot like rule and control to me. And since he believes any amount of destruction is worth it if a greater good could happen later on, he’s much more dangerous than Rayse ever was.
I love Taravangian as a character, because I really enjoy good villains! Ahem. Anyway, to his credit he did ask for intelligence and compassion both from the Nightwatcher/Cultivation, so original T. seems to have been aware of his deficiency in the compassion department. Is this why he so easily fell into worshipping the sociopathic genius that he was on his his most intelligent days? OTOH, in his most compassionate days he allegedly couldn’t think at all, so he couldn’t course-correct either, but maybe it was always a misleading and subjective impression, given what comes later.
Nor do we have any reason to think that protecting Kharbranth was the real goal of genius Tarvangian – it seems far too pedestrian for him. Not to mention that it is a trade city that can’t exist independantly, so it would have died out even without Odium actively destroying it. In the end, Mr. T’s bargain couldn’t really save it.
Yes, it is an intriguing idea that Vorinism may actually be Odium’s religion in sheep’s hide. The Iriali don’t follow it, though, so it is unclear to me why they would have been in favor of an endless war. With their history as a culture of worldhoppers, did they really intend to align themselves with Odium or do they just think that it is time to move on and fighting him would be useless and counter-productive. I have long favored the idea that they are next moving to Scadrial, which has a very small population for a whole planet and lots of unexplored territory empty of intelligent life. Are they “the men of red and gold” from the second Mistborn trilogy, perhaps?
Alex @9:
That’s the question, isn’t it? Sanderson is on record with a RAFO on the subject. I have written in the previous installment that maybe Lift, due to her wish of remaining herself no matter what happens could become a Vessel that can’t be eventually subsumed by a Shard.
OTOH, there is also the mystery of how could Rayse have possibly been in conflict with his power after being influenced by it for so long. I have gone back and re-read the commentary on the previous set of interludes and the oddity of Rayse not liking being questioned/Odium’s power being attuned to questioning in Sja-Anat’s interlude did strike me as potentially very significant. It is very intriguing because why would hatred be so aligned? And how is it that Rayse somehow avoided being remade by his Shard in this one respect? It has been suggested that if the Vessels could be made imprevious to being changed by their Shards, then it would have already been attempted – can it be that with Rayse we saw the result of such an attempt?
Austin @1 – Well, yes, that was long-term. But what was he supposed to be doing with her gift in the intervening 7 years? What should he have been learning from it? (I’m really not convinced that Cultivation follows the “boon and curse” rule the way the Nightwatcher does.)
CaptainCrowbar @2 – Good point; you’d think Cultivation has been around humans enough to know that the smart non-compassionate side would dominate. Then again, she’s a dragon, so… maybe she doesn’t quite get it?
Alex @9 – We don’t really know what’s happened to the intelligent/compassionate dichotomy now. It was already behaving oddly, in that he hasn’t had what he considers a smart day in over a year — though that might have been Cultivation meddling directly, knowing that Odium would only take the bait on a “dumb” day. But now that he’s Ascended… we don’t know. I’d kinda love it if it continues…
AndrewHB @13 – I’d kinda forgotten that Rlain also ought to be hidden now. That could be really cool, if Urithiru is essentially not visible to TOdium. Renarin has figured out that his ability to see future possibilities allows him to change the future, and therefore prevent Odium from seeing the future clearly; once they realize that the same applies to Rlain, maybe they can use it!
“You capitalized the word “Idea”. In the Cosmere, what is the term “Idea?”’ Oops. I can see where that’s confusing. It’s not capitalized in the Cosmere sense, just in the sense that he came up with a big – and ultimately critical – idea.
Carl @14 – Yes, I know that humans becoming gods is an important aspect of LDS belief. That’s why it bothered me: because that aspect of their belief bothers me. I find it both untenable and heretical to Christian orthodoxy, so it bothered me to see Sanderson apparently using it as the climax to the series. That’s also partly why I appreciate his later treatment so much – like Reckoners, it acknowledges the shortcomings of people who suddenly attain great powers but are still, by nature, fallible.
Isilel @17 – Oh. My. Stars. I know you’ve said that before, but it just hit me anew in this context. Assuming they have retained the secret knowledge of how to move on as an entire people, it would make a lot of sense that they’re okay with being subject to the Fused & singers until they’re ready to leave. That would be really wild – red for an interfering Investiture, and gold for their golden hair.
@14 While we do believe that God was once a human being, we still believe he created the Earth. We just believe he was a human on some other Earth and once he became a God he created our Earth and all of us. We also believe we can eventually become like him and create our own planets and people, thus continuing the endless cycle.
@14 and 18 – on Apotheosis, Mistborn, and LDS theology –
As always, personal opinions, experiences, and reactions being respected – it always strikes me as weird when people pull out the ending of Mistborn as some sort of direct LDS-ism coming from Sanderson. Now, there are tons of LDS-isms (shorthand for aspects of his writing that seem strongly or weakly influenced by LDS theology, scripture, cosmology, and/or identity) within his writing – how could there not be? But this one never struck me* as a really strong LDS-ism..
First off, the idea of apotheosis or ascension to a state that is either explicitly stated as Godhood or just something equivalent is a fairly common (or at least not unheard of) trope within sci fi/fantasy (Malazan, anyone?). Secondly, the type of apotheosis and ascension as depicted in Mistborn specifically and the Cosmere at large does not match very much at all with how LDS characterize and understand notions of “eternal progression,” “becoming joint-heirs with Christ” (taking from Paul) and growing to become like Jesus and God the Father after being resurrected from the dead and no longer mortal (which is obviously rooted in Biblical scripture and tradition, and does have some resonances and connections with other historical and contemporary branches of Christian Orthodoxy, just not Protestant views).
[Side note – Carl’s description, which, while I can’t say that no LDS have ever held/believed/taught (but will say that I have never heard it stated/written), is a little bit too caricatured/fast-and-loose and does not accurately reflect the basics of LDS doctrines of creation being accomplished by Jesus Christ under the direction of his Father, humanity as literal spiritual Children of Heavenly Parents, and “inheriting Celestial Glory.” The attendant questions and implications that the conjunction of such doctrines raise about the nature of deity are mostly unresolved and not systematically answered by LDS scripture or prophets (which will lead to rampant speculation by members, of course). Not gonna delve much deeper than that as this isn’t the forum for such.]
Apotheosis in the Cosmere seems much more Gnostic and/or more specifically Ancient Near Eastern, as influenced with the usurpation and destruction of a God by those intent on taking aspects of his being and ascending to power. For example, Mesopotamian, like creation from the Epic of Gilgamesh with physical creation accomplished through the destruction of the body of the Goddess Tiamat by Marduk, but also other influences like Roman/Greek mythologies, etc. I am curious about connections or influences in Eastern or dharmic philosophies of religion on this (Shinto, Buddhist, Hindu, etc), since Sanderson’s writings definitely have a lot of borrowings from Japanese and Korean mythos but I am not as strongly versed in those traditions and any influences. But there could be interesting connections with Bodhisattvas, etc.
*my background for this statement: raised LDS, decades of experience studying LDS doctrine along with graduate degrees in comparative religion
Alice @18: referring to the men of gold and red … Raysium is golden-looking. His Investiture (or Taravangian’s, now) would be red on Scadrial. I doubt it’s that simple, though.
StormLordZeus, @19: other Saints have told me with absolute confidence that the God of Exodus and later books is an apotheosized Adam, although that is not the doctrine of the LDS Church. There appears to be a lot of diversity in Mormon belief (and many schisms and separate sects).
Pedantic Professor @20: if you talk about creating the world by destroying the primal gods, I think more about the dismemberment of Ymir by his children in Norse myth, myself. Adonalsium has very little in common with either Ymir or Tiamat, though, as far as we can tell. In fact, it’s almost the anti-Tiamat, with dragons helping to destroy the primal whatever-Adonalsium-was. It doesn’t really apply, though, because it was Adonalsium who created the Cosmere before his death, although his “broken god” successors have added to it.
I’ve mentioned in previous comment sections that “Adonalsium” would appear to be a combination of Hebrew and Latin roots meaning “Substance of the Lord” (adonai), a description or title, not a name. If I ever get a chance to chat with Peter “Brandon’s linguist friend” Ahlstrom, I will have several questions to ask.
I certainly don’t think the Cosmere is meant to be “space Mormonism”. (Some of OSC’s work does seem that way to me.) I was more making the point that apotheosis is not unacceptable as a concept to humans–many, many humans do in fact believe in it.
Carl @21: one last comment on LDS beliefs (again, as Pedantic Professor notes, this isn’t the forum for in-depth commentary on such, so I’ll keep it brief). Mormons (speaking as one) tend to use the term “doctrine” very broadly. Opinions and beliefs on things such as the Creation and eternal progression and God and our potential to become like Them and such are often couched as doctrine when they really shouldn’t be (just b/c there never is a lot of scriptural backing for those beliefs, people tend to take their beliefs way beyond what scripture does say, and they aren’t nearly as important as doctrine surrounding Christ and His gospel). That’s there often is a lot of diversity in Mormon beliefs and opinions on topics like this. Fundamental, foundational doctrine is much less speculative than a lot of beliefs.
Also, I hadn’t even considered the whole “Iriali people are planning on leaving Roshar at some point” thing up until now, but that’s fascinating! It’ll be interesting to see what role they take later on in the Cosmere.
MISTBORN SPOILERS
PedanticProfessor @20 – Speaking only for myself, I’d remind you that when Mistborn was first published, that and Elantris were the only things published in the Cosmere. Knowing of Brandon’s LDS faith, and knowing some of the “as we are, God once was, and as He is, we shall become” belief, it seemed a pretty obvious connection to make when Sazed Ascended and became, essentially, God of Scadrial. Once more of the Cosmere lore was available, it’s much less so. Learning of Adonalsium, the various Shards, and the known weaknesses of (especially) certain of the Vessels, definitely reduces the probable connection. And I’m happy to see it.
@20 Mistborn and Scadrial actually borrow a lot from Taoism from what I can tell
This was a fascinating discussion to pop in on – I’m unfamiliar with Mormonism so it’s interesting to see what may or may not have been incorporated or alluded to. But perhaps in some ways it’s similar to how Tolkien’s Catholicism seeped into his works although he tried to avoid direct allusions (for example, he is on record stating that Gandalf’s return is not intended to be a Resurrection analog).
As for T, wasn’t part of his motivation that he resented being thought of as dumb? Which is kind of interesting as I’m currently reading WoK Prime (which is a really interesting experience) and the character that is analagous seems to have a similar deviousness.