Welcome to my no moon left unturned reread of Patrick Rothfuss’s Kingkiller Chronicles. This week we’re doing something a little different—we’re looking at Thistlepong’s timeline of all the events mentioned in The Wise Man’s Fear and The Name of the Wind. Unsurprisingly, this assumes you’ve read all of both books. This post is full of spoilers, please don’t venture beyond the cut unless you want them.
The good news is that the paperback of The Wise Man’s Fear came out this week, so if you’ve been waiting for that you can catch up now!
Useful links: The Sleeping Under the Wagon post, in which there are lots of theories. The re-read index. The map.
Zero set at Kvothe’s entrance to the University
Color Key:
Kvothe’s Age
Saicere
Errata
Skill Leveling
Humor
KINGKILLER TIMELINE
-10,000 shepherds begin whistling Bell Weather : :
~Tinker Tanner (the oldest song in the world, not really)
Old Knowers
“these old name-knowers moved smoothly through the world. they knew the fox and they knew the hare, and they knew the space between the two.”
Shapers
“then came those who saw a thing and thought of changing it. they thought in terms of mastery. “they were shapers. proud dreamers.”
Felurian on the walls of Murella
Faen sewn from whole cloth by the Shapers
Each shaper wrought a star to fill the empty sky of Faen
Iax spoke to the Cthaeh
Iax pulls the Moon into Faen
(the land cracks and the sky changes)
The Mortal makes war on Faen
The Creation War (centuries long)
-5500 Chael shapes Saicere
5000 x 31
(#Owners – Finol)
The Empire of Ergen (hundreds of cities
The Empire reduced to Seven cities and one city
Belen, Antus, Vaeret, Tinusa, Emlen, Murilla and Murella
Myr Tariniel, greatest of them all and the only one unscarred by the long centuries of war.
Lanre
Lanre marries Lyra
L&L thwart a surprise attack on Belen
L&L raise armies
L&L make the cities the cities recognize the need for allegiance.
L&L press the Empire’s enemies back
Blac of Drossen Tor turns the tide of the war
Finol holds Saicere
(more people died in three days than are living today)
Lanre dies killing a great beast with scales of black iron
The enemy is set/shut beyond the doors of stone
Lyra resurrects Lanre
War continues, years pass
Lyra dies, Lanre disappears
Lanre speaks to the Cthaeh
Lanre orchestrates the betrayal
-5000
~ 5,000:- Fae language that Bast and Felurian speak
Lanre comes to Myr Tariniel
MT and six other cities ruined.
Selitos curses Haliax and his allies
The fragment depicted in NotW c.28
Most of the ruach choose not to become invloved
Selitos founds the Amyr
Aleph empowers Tehlu & Pals
The Adem
Aethe seeks mastery over the bow
Aethe founds a school
Rethe comes
Aethe & Rethe duel
Rethe dictates nine and ninety tales
The Aethe path founded
The Aratan path founded
The Latantha path founded
-3000 The Loeclos Box
~3000 Yllish knots
Heldred unites the nomads in the hills around the Shalda Mountains
Heldim and Heldar
-2000 The Cealdim introduce standardized hard currency
(Kvothe’s inaccurate Saicere estimate)
~2000 Temic, Siaru
-1500 Sovoy’s blood goes back fifty generations
-1300 Oldest surviving mention of Loeclos family name
-1000 Height of Lockless power
Trapis’s Story (corroborated)
~1000 Tema, Aturan
The Book of the Path
-1000 The Aturan Empire & the Tehlin Church
-1000: Human Amyr founded by the Tehlin church in the early days of the Aturan empire.
-900 variant spellings of Lockless in Caudicus’s book
-600 The Lockless change their name(s)
Lackless (Vint)
Lack-key(Atur)
Laclith (South)
Kaepcaen (Modeg)
(Trapis’s story: disputed)
-400 The Aturan Empire absorbs Vint
-370 Gibea begins vivisection
-350 The Amyr move against the Duke of Gibea (19/23 volumes lost)
-300 Alpura Prolycia Amyr The Pontifex disbands the Amyr
*during Emperor Nalto’s reign
-300 to present Nine cataloguing systems in the Archives
-300 to -200 The Aturan Empire collapses
-200 novel travelogues all the rage in Modeg
-200 Tehlins still burned anyone with a knack (called demon signs)
-150: Antressor (famous instrument maker) lived
-100: Last publicly known case of someone guilty of malfeasance
-80 The Medica removes cataracts
-55 Oren Velciter born
*Abenthy born
-50 Four Master Archivists within five years of one another
3 factions:
Tollem
Larkin
(unknown)
-40 Lerand Alveron born
* Trapis born
* Elodin born
*Abenthy enters the University (18)
-35 Larkin Ledgers burned
ending 15 years of Scriv Holy War
200,000 books effectively lost
*Abenthy knows as much as Kvothe@11 (20)
-30: Manet enrolled at university
-30 Master Archivist Tollem dies
new Master Archivist
new Archival System
-24 Maershon Lerand Alveron succeeds his father (16)
-14 Elodin enrolled at University
-18 Simmon Dalonir born
-18 Elodin gets his gil’the
* Denna Born
-16 Arliden steals Laurian away
-15 Kvothe born
-10/11: Caudicus became part of Maer’s court (a dozen years before Kv in Severen).
-12 Kvothe learns to sing (Age 3)
-9 Kvothe stops believing in magic (Age 6)
-7 Kvothe learns the Lute (Age 8)
-7 Kvothe learns an eclectic smattering of Commonwealth law
-6 Kvothe learns the inner workings of the Modegan royal court from Hetera (Age 9)
Arliden begins collection stories about Lanre
-5 Elodin is Chancellor
-4 Abenthy joins Greyfallow’s Men (Age 11)
I learned how to work the sextant, the compass, the slipstick, the abacus. More important, I learned to do without. Within a span I could identify any chemical in his cart. In two months I could distill liquor until it was too strong to drink, bandage a wound, set a bone, and diagnose hundreds of sicknesses from symptoms. I knew the process for making four different aphrodisiacs, three concoctions for contraception, nine for impotence, and two philtres referred to simply as “maiden’s helper.”
Mental agility exerices, alar, heart of stone, seek the stone, sympathy (90 bindngs)
-4 The Chandrian/University conversation
-4 Kvothe uses sympathy to “call the wind”
(a month before his 12th birthday)
-3/4 Abenthy stays in Hallowfell
Arliden performs 11 lines of /(Lanre)/
(a couple span before Kvothe turns 12)
-3 Kvothe learns: (Age 12)
japing and tumbling from Trip
dancing from Shandi
swordplay for Teren
acting from Arliden
etiquette from Laurian
-3 Greyfallow’s Men massacred
TIME is essentially broken here. The time following Hallowfell, through the massacre, and toward Tarbean is inadequately described, clumsy, and difficult to account for. Kvothe should be well into his thirteenth year by the time he reaches Tarbean, but he says, “That was the first night of nearly three years I spent in Tarbean.” He means roughly twenty one months. In any case he’s still 12.
-3 (under duress) Tarbean
Begging, slitting purses, picking pockets, picking locks, living barefoot, self sufficiency and distrust, being victim to and witnessing assault
– 3 years: Ambrose Jakis achieves the rank of Re’lar (Zolt)
Tarbean Year One:
Pike, Trapis, Hillside (Encanis/Gerrek saves him during Midwinter Pageantry.)
Tarbean Year Two:
Trapis’s Story, attacking Pike
Tarbean Year Three:
Skarpi’s stories (just past 15)
-5 days Kvothe sells Rhetoric and Logic
Shuden, 35 Caitelyn
meets Denna
leaves Tarbean
-4 days
-3 days Kvothe and Denna talk on the greystone
-2 days Kvothe plays Josn’s Lute
-1 day Kvothe arrives in Imre, parts with Denna
0 Kvothe admitted to University
Cendling, 43 Caitelyn
SOMETHING is amiss there, too. Kvothe says, “But if it was the thirty-fifth then I only had five days to get to the University. I knew from Ben that admissions only lasted until Cendling.” Reta and Roent’s caravan travels five days, but eight dates pass. Eight dates are consistent with the weekdays from Shuden to Cendling.
+1-2 years WMF (16-17)
(D3)
+8 years Bast (23)
The Event
People in Newarre did not lock their doors before this.
+9 Waystone Inn (24)
Spring — Levy
Summer — Levy
The roads get particularly bad.
2 span before Scrael — Last caravan passes through
Scrael
+10 Chronicler arrives (25)
Day 1
Shamble Man kills Shep, killed by Aaron
Day 2
Carter and Aaron leave for Treya with the Orrisons
Kvothe robbed by King’s Men
Day 3
Carter and Aaron to return
Chronicler has missed his appointment with Skarpi
*Caluptena
-500 to -1000: The Universty has been around for centuries, while Caluptena was burned by Tehlin Atur.
*Taborlin the Great
“I heard from a boy in Temper Glen that if your arm’s cut off they can sew it back on at the University. Can they really? Some stories say Taborlin the Great went there to learn the names of all things. There’s a library with a thousand books. Are there really that many?”
The name creep issue aside, only a few rare stories survive very long in the Mortal. Taborlin’s widespread contemporary presence coupled with the above quote place him, generously, within five hundred years; if he existed at all.
*Illien
Within a thousand years: his crowning work is about a Tehlin Amyr.
(Jezdynamite’s additions added. And more dates from comments added 13/3/12 ~91)
Jo Walton is a science fiction and fantasy writer. She’s published two poetry collections and nine novels, most recently Among Others, and if you liked this post you will like it. She reads a lot, and blogs about it here regularly. She comes from Wales but lives in Montreal where the food and books are more varied.
This timeline looks to be a labor of love. It’s a wonderful reference. Thank you Thistlepong!
Do we know how old Kvothe is when Chronicler arrives or is (25) just a guess?
Wow. Thank you, Jo.
grapnel33@2
It’s an educated guess based on Chronicler’s thoughts in the frame:
Kvothe’s comment later, “You’re both so young,” calls this sharply into question, of course. But from the beginning of the story we’re meant to imagine Kvothe as twenty five, or twenty five going on forty as Kote; hair faded and eyes dimmed. It seems pretty reasonable. His story’s wrapping up in 1000 pages or so.
Elodin was Chancellor at -5 (as noted) between that time and
0 he spent two years in the Rookery.
This timeline is really great. Thanks Thistlepong.
Would it be beneficial to expand his time at the University to order the events as they occurred there?
Thanks Jo and thistlepong.
Are any of the below relevant? I took out the ones that I posted last week that didn’t have a decent date reference. Thanks for including the plum bob event.
-1000: Human Amyr founded by the Tehlin church in the early days of the Aturan empire.
-150: Antressor (famous instrument maker) lived
-100: Last publicly known case of someone guilty of malfeasance
-30: Manet enrolled at university
-12: Last student before K to be banned from archives
-10/11: Caudicus became part of Maer’s court (a dozen years before Kv in Severen).
One more thing; in WMF Chp. 2, K mentions he had been pondering (for 2 years) what the local populace do with pomace. The timeline above reflects K has been in Newarre for 1 year before the Chronicler arrives. Shouldn’t it be 2 years before the Chronicler arrives?
Devi is expelled from the University in Sim’s first term.
No exact date that I can find for Sim’s first term though.
thistlepong@3
That’s good evidence for twenty-five. But I suspect that by the time of the frame story it has been less than 25 years since Kvothe was born. But he may very well have lived for 25 or more years. We don’t know much time he spent with Felurian in Faen but it was certainly more than the three days that passed for Martin, Hespe & Dedan. Kvothe’s beard grew so it would seem that his metabolic processes continued unimpeded so he should have aged as well. Now if he was with Felurians for months, maybe half a year, he could be eighteen in physical age though only seventeen-and-a-half by the calendar. A few months isn’t enough to quibble about but it’s likely Kvothe will be back in Faen to acquire Bast in the third book. He might well spend a long time there. In support of this idea I offer NOTW Chapter 6:
“We got wind of you a while back. Just a whisper of a rumor. I didn’t really expect…” Chronicler paused, suddenly awkward. “I thought you would be older.”
“I am,” Kote said. Chronicler looked puzzled, but before he could say anything the innkeeper continued. “What brings you into this worthless little corner of the world?”
Jezdynamite@6: Kvothe has been in Newarre for at least a year but not as much as two. He faked is death less than two years ago. We know this from NOTW chapter 6 when Chronicler begins to badger him for his story:
Kote shook his head. “It was a long time ago—”
“Not even two years,” Chronicler protested.
“—and I am not what I was,” Kote continued without pausing.
There may be a bit of a gap in time between the public death of Kvothe and the first appearance of the inkeeper Kote. NOTW chapter 1:
The men at the bar seemed almost surprised to see Kote standing there. They’d been coming to the Waystone every Felling night for months and Kote had never interjected anything of his own before. Not that you could expect anything else, really. He’d only been in town for a year or so. He was still a stranger.
shalter@7:
I couldn’t find my note for it, but I’m sure it’s possible to determine when Sim entered the University.
grapnel33@8:
Jezdynamite noted the pomace thing because it evinces an apparent contradiction. Either he’s been wondering since before the event went down or ::spooky:: he’s been elsewhere in that time.
shalter@7
By the end of Kvothe’s first term at the University Devi has been in business as a gaelet for at least two years. So she must have been expelled at least a bit before that. When Kvothe goes to pay her the interest on his first loan – NOTW Chapter 60:
Which, in hindsight, I guess she was. Back then she was an older woman, experienced and self-sure. I, on the other hand, was not quite sixteen.
“Once,” she answered as I put my lute away. “Two years ago a young gentleman E’lir decided it would be better to inform the constable than to settle his debt.”
At some point the lute as an instrument changed as well.
Kvothe, and all other players of his time play a seven stringed uncoursed instrument that is much more like a 7-string guitar than a classical lute. All of the strings are played (it’s uncoursed) and the neck has a tensioning rod in it.
The court-lute Denna’s friend plays is much more like our comprehension of a lute. The time spent tuning the thing is a hint, lutes could have up to 15 courses, and since lutes are two course instruments, that means 30 strings to tune. All without tuning machines, since the tuning pegs are pegs and not geared. Tuning machines should be within the technical reach of Kvothe’s time, but aren’t used, probably due to cost.
That said, I know that PR didn’t know that lutes were coursed when he wrote NotW, someone mentioned it to him after reading an ARC. So I’m not sure there is much hay to be made with this particular nugget.
This is very probably not correct, but I’ve talked myself into believing that Elodin actually is/was Taborlin the Great. Possibly up until he broke out of the rookery. We don’t know much at all about the time before that.
There is the issue of how fast the story spread, but when you look at all of the Kvothe stories it definitely seems like a possibility. It would explain why Felurian hadn’t heard of him, and why there is never an overall story arc mentioned for Taborlin, just like with the Kvothe stories.
Is anyone able to refute my theory? I would love to hear others’ thoughts either way.
DJones@12 – I had a similar thought a few days ago. But you are right, there isn’t much support in the text, just the similar stories of Taborlin and Elodins escape and the parallel of most stories being embellished.
I think Elodin could simply have been joking by comparing his own escape with Taborlin’s escape (which seems more likely to me).
I also think Elodin was joking, but it’s a lovely possibility.
I’ve added Jezdynamite’s dates.
RE 2 years of wondering about pomace: I didn’t read Kvothe’s question about pomace to indicate that he had been wondering what it was called for 2 YEARS (as in, 2 periods of 360ish days), but rather as 2 “apple seasons.”
Think about it this way: The frame occurs sometime in the late fall or early winter. Apples are harvested and made into cidre in the late summer through the fall. If Kvothe and Bast arrived at Newarre in mid to late summer (or earlier), 1 1/2 years ago, they have been there for at least two years worth of apples, not actually two *calendar* years, and his comment is legit and doesn’t contradict anything else in the timeline.
People say stuff like that all the time. For example, after a summer vacation, someone might say that they’d been going to the same location for two years, when they really mean, “we went there last year and this year” (over a 15 month period, not 24).
RE Kvothe’s age: I always figured that he was older than he appeared (and that it had been longer than 25 years since his birth), but I’m coming around to the idea that perhaps it’s actually been 25 years or so since he was born. One reason I was skeptical was the timeline of the Kvothe stories — yes, they spread fast, but could they really have spread THAT fast? But, it seems like they could, and that’s part of Pat’s point about stories they spread and change, and there is truth somewhere behind them. Since many of the stories about Kvothe started when he was 15-17, perhaps he really could have been a household name in only 10 years — particularly given whatever The Event was.
In contrast to grapnel33 @8, I think that his time in Faen is likely to have aged him mentally, but not physically. Yes, his beard grew while he was with Felurian, but I don’t think that necessarily means that he physically ages (or alternatively, that he ages as fast as he would normally). So, he could easily have spent a serious amount of time (from his perspective) in Faen, but not aged physically. Additionally, he has always been mentally/intellectually much older than his physical age, so his comments to Chronicler and others about his being older (and their being young) don’t necessarily mean anything with respect to the “normal” timeline and regular aging.
DJones@12 — doesn’t Elodin say that when he was a boy, he wanted to learn majic like Taborlin? It could have been Lorren, I suppose (or one of the other masters), but that would seem to indicate that Elodin ISN’T Taborlin.
bluejo@14 – thank you for adding the items to the timeline.
Johnpoint@15 – re: pomace and the 2 years, that sounds reasonable to me. Good thinking.
Johnpoint@16, DJones@12 – I couldn’t find anywhere in either book where anyone, other than K, fashioned themselves on Taborlin or wishing for Taborlin’s magic when they were young.
The -300 and -200 entries still have the messed up indent brackets, which are probably an artifact of my original. The stuff inside {indent}{/indent}should have been on the next line and indented.
The links to the reread index are broken; the correct link is this one: http://www.tor.com/features/series/patrick-rothfuss-reread.
I assume by «eratta» you mean errata. ;)
A question: What’s (5000/(#Owners – Finol) x 31) about? Sorry if this was explained in the last thread, but in any case I think it should be here as well since this is the main timeline post.
Zizoz@19
Inference. Haliax hasn’t slept in 5000 years. That followed Drossen Tor by “years,” but it’s a nice round number. Saicere has had 237 owners and at least 31 held it before or during the battle.
so 5000/(#owners-Finol) x 31 provides an approximate age.
I suppose it should say:
-750 to -500: Chael Shapes Saicere
and just eliminate the equation if it’s a stumbling point.
Ah. I do think it’s good to explain where the dates come from, so instead of eliminating the equation I’d prefer fleshing it out a bit so it’s clearer. Actually it isn’t really an equation at the moment, which is part of the problem — I was trying to get 5500 out of it rather than 500.
Zizoz@21
My take on the equation is:
In 5000 years (the approx year of Drossen Tor), there have been 206 holders of the sword (237 owners minus the 31 owners up to and including Finol).
To get an average length of time that a person holds the sword, (5000 years/206 holders) gives just about 24.27 years per holder.
If you multiply the average years per holder (24.27) by the number of people up to and including Drossen Tor (31 people from Chael to Finol), you get about 752 years (752 years before Drossen Tor, which would place the swords creation at around -5,752).
I think thistlepong is just saying that Chael made Saicere somewhere between 750 and 500 years before Drossen Tor. It’s an educated estimate.
I’ve got only:
– 3 years: Ambrose Jakis achieves the rank of Re’lar
Devi expelled / Sim’s first term is at least -2 years and can’t be much more. Wilem tells Kvothe “little Simmon is 2 inches taller and three years older than you are”. But that would mean Sim was no older than16 for his first term.
Not impossible but… maybe Wilem is talking in about years at the university, or Kvothe lied about his own age.
@15. JohnPoint
RE 2 years of wondering about pomace: I didn’t read Kvothe’s question about pomace to indicate that he had been wondering what it was called for 2 YEARS (as in, 2 periods of 360ish days), but rather as 2 “apple seasons.”
The other explanation is that Kvothe got into an argument over what people call the leftover when you press apples, around 2 years ago, with some king. Kvothe didn’t know the answer, but won the argument anyway.
I don’t know if this has been said before but it fits very nicely with a superman/clark kent feel. I believe manet and elodin to be one and the same person, when you think about it there are so many hints by both of these characters that it may be true.
during one of kvothe and elodins conversations elodin slips in the thought that maybe they have been pupil and teacher for longer than kvothe thinks is true, which is true in the case of manet.
elodins penchant for getting out of his masters robes and walking among the people dressed normally could be indicative of a double life.
there are several very obvious cases such as the 3 cards plus 5 cards equals 8 cards comment by both manet and elodin. but elodin asks this question at kvothes tuition revue, as if the real question is not 3+5=8 but more a question of deeeper understanding. this fits very strongly with elodins nature, as he likes asking questions that provoke questions in response. if thats the case then the answer to what is 3 cards plus 5 cards can only be to respond with the question “are you manet”, a question only a namer could ask.
there is also the fact that we know when elodin was made chancellor but not how old he is or when he joined the university. two possibilities present themself then, elodin has been maintaining the double life since he joined the university and the original cause of him cracking or the double life is an outcome of him becoming cracked. either way elodin clearly has a flair for the theatrical so it wouldnt have been hard for him to spread the rumour that manet had been there longer and kvothe has shown its a lot easier to look older than younger. all elodin would need is the cooperation of the other masters and some of the longer term gillers.
a seperate possibility is that elodin never cracked, it was a facade from the start. elodin wanted to create his “taborlin the great” alter ego without letting go of a normal life, perhaps what kvothe should have done from the start. so he created “elodin”, the mad genius arcanist master of naming and an all round strange man, with all the stories that float around him similar to kvothe. this left “manet” time to work in the fishery, get drunk with friends and all the minutiae that make life more enjoyable but without the gossip following him.
I know this is a bit rambled but im tired and hungry so theres just no chance of a second draft. all the pieces are there, they just something doing with them.
Zolt@23:
Thanks. I actually think there’s something else that corroborates Sim entering the Arcanum at sixteen. I’ll see if I can find it. That makes Sim fairly special in his own right.
@23 We know that Kvothe does lie about his own age during admissions. He didn’t want anyone to know just how young he really was. It would be easier for him to keep that lie going and tell it to everyone than to worry about who knew which story. His friends probably don’t know his real age.
@16,17 Strangely, I remember this, too. I was unable to find any reference to it in either book using the electronic version. I did searches for Taborlin, Elodin, Lorren, Chancellor, and Herma. This leads me to conclude that either my printed copy is slightly different and this is in there somewhere or JohnPoint and I are both remembering something that didn’t happen. As unreliable as memory is, especially my own, it could go either way.
@27
Nah, Kvothe tells them he’s fifteen during admissions. You’re thinking of his conversation with Elxa Dal before he takes time off, when he lies and says he’s seventeen.
There is a lot of info out there that we can get narrowed done guesses at (like Sim’s admission so far). I wonder if we should have tentative dates in there in some color to distinguish them.
For another example:
Elodin looks at least a dozen years younger than any other master. He made chancellor at -5. He was admitted at 14 and a full member by 18 then spent a few years as a giller.
He isn’t a gibbering madman at 0, so it seems like he has been out of the Rookery for a while, probably at least 1 year. It also seems a bit unlikely he made Chancellor and immediately went bent. If we give the following:
-5 Elodin made Chancellor
-3 Elodin’s Event–placed in Rookery
-1 Elodin emerges from Rookery
That timeline feels about right, but can’t be proven. It could go back or up a bit. There is an interesting congruence if -3 is the Elodin Event as that was also the approximate time of the massacre. Probably coincidence, but …
Elodin also feels roughly in his mid 30’s – 40 in the story. If the younger of the other master’s were around late 40’s to early 50 this would fit with his looking 12 years younger.
If we gave him an age of 37 at 0 then that would give something like:
-23 Elodin admitted to University
-19 Full Arcanist
-19 to -16 Giller
-16 to -10 ?Chasing names
-10 to -5 Master
The -16 to -10 are pure guesses. Sim and Wil don’t say that he became a Master right after being done with being a Giller. There is an implication that he left for a while. Then, it seems likely that he would have to have spent some time as a full Master before becoming Chancellor.
@27(16/17)
The only master I could find even saying Taborlin was Hemme:
Which is kind of funny, but not what you’re looking for. A few folks – Lorren, Alveron – talk about wanting to be Amyr as boys.
@25 I find it difficult to believe that Eldoin and Manet are the same person. Kvothe and indeed several other students spend a lot of time with both of them, and no similarities are mentioned. I don’t have the exact physical descriptions of each but I seem to remember Elodin constantly being referred to as young looking, and Manet as very old. He’s been at the University for what 30 years? I think the 3 spades, 5 spades incident at admissions is more a testament to Elodin’s prowess as a namer. He looks at Kvothe as if “he is a book is was idly thumbing through” and finds Manet’s “primer for admissions” comment and uses it as is question. Then when that doesn’t satisfy the other masters he asks Kvothe something that he doesn’t know, but indeed eventually finds out the very thing during his trip to the Fae. “Where does the moon go, when it is no longer in our sky?”
TL;DR Elodin is a badass, Manet is just an an old E’lir.
JohnPoint@15
You may be right about time in Faen not actually being time at all. The Cthaeh appears to be on your side. WMF Chapter 104:
The Cthaeh seemed to take it as a signal. “That’s right, I suppose you don’t need me to tell you what he looks like. You’ve seen him just a day or three ago.”Realization thundered into me. The leader of the bandits. The graceful man in chain mail. Cinder. He was the one who had spoken to me when I was a child. The man with the terrible smile and the sword like winter ice.
When Kvothe speaks with the Cthaeh he has been in Faen for quite a while though of course we have no measure of days but we might count sleeps or something. Anyway it does sound like longer than the “day or three” the Cthaeh mentions, a day or three tracking pretty much right on to time in the mortal world outside Faen.
On an unrelated note, has anyone collected a list of the days of the week (span) and the names of the months? I know a span is eleven days but I don’t know how many spans to a month or even months to a year. Months may not all be the same length. I think it would be helpful to a discussion of time and timelines to also nail down the calendar as much as possible.
There’s probably a link, but for thread reference…
span: 11 days
Luten
Shuden
Theden
Feochen
Orden
Hepten
Caenin
Felling
Reaving
Cendling
Mourning
month: 4 span/44 days
Thaw
Equis
Caitelyn
Solace
Lannis
Reaping
Fallow
Dearth
year: 8 months/32 span/352 days
synodic period (moon phase): 72 1/3 days
There are rare opportunities to chart day by day.
I find funny that hemme says those things don’t exist and yet the only one of those things wehaven’t found yet is the portion to make you fly, kvothe puts a circle of air and fire around felurian, fella makes a magic ring of stone, the adem have swords that never go dull (our at least let forever), and kvothes schaed kind of makes him if not invisible less notable (kind of like an SEP)
Hmm, anyone else think we might see a flying potion?
Well, there aren’t any days in Faen, so time might have been passing without days passing. Sort of like how a day on Venus is 117 Earth days, a day in Fae is infinitely long.
Also, Fela’s ring was made by magic but I don’t recall it having any actual magic properties. A better example would be the amber ring Kvothe supposedly owns that lets him control demons, but of course this hasn’t been found yet.
I think the age difference between the day he was born and the current day in the frame story and the days lived is not an amount that has changed his physical appearance. I know that I look a lot different than I did five years ago and I’m not yet thirty.
Where I think the “being older” comes in his within his being, aka his soul. Even from what we’ve encountered at this point we know he’s gone through some experiences that would strip a couple lives off a person (Chandrian killing his parents, stress of maintaining his Alar all day and night, spending time with Felurian, etc…) and I wouldn’t be surprised if hasn’t felt the years a little more harshly than the average man or woman.
A thought to end: Would having ones Alar broken age him or be another experience that aged him mentally or emotionally?
just wanted to chuck a theory out there that im suprised i havnt seen in the comments yet. (but then i may have just glazed over it)
the day before the Chronicler turns up in Newarre, there is a sandy-haired young man that misspronounces a word whilst claiming kote is kvothe, and kvothe corrects him by habbit and retreats to his room for the rest of the night.
now this is a bit of a stab in the dark, but i cant help but think this sandy haired young man may just be Willem, however has obviously been brain damaged somehow
Wonderful job Thistlepong and jezdynamite!
@37 Do you mean Simmon?
Do you think we’ll get the caldender name meanings in D3? A span, if I remember correctly (a friend has my NotW), was the number of days that Tehlu chased Encanis.
The months just describe the seasons. What about the days? I think the prefix for the first seven days is a number, with the “-en” meaning “day” Caenin is the seventh day, from “caen or chaen.”
But then the pattern changes for days 8 to 11. We have Felling, Reaving, Cendling, Mourning.
Felling would be killing Encanis, I think, but I might have Trapis’s story mixed up. Reaving is taking away or robbing (fall of 7 cities thousands of years before Tehlin Church?). Cendling is interesting because the other words are recognizable, but I don’t know this one. Any linguists out there? And then we have Mourning, which I think is mourning Tehlu and the iron wheel thing.
Has anyone else looked at this yet? Does it fit with the timeline events?
Is there any evidence that writing existed at the time of the Creation War? Kvothe says the oldest history mentioned in the Archives is the Caluptenian Empire about 2000 years ago. This is probably due to censorship, but it’s possible that writing hadn’t been invented long before that.
Why this might be important: Rethe wrote a poem (in her own blood) after her duel with Aethe, so the founding of the Adem school must have occurred after the invention of writing.
This also constrains Teccam, whose written works survive, to have lived no earlier than 2000 years ago.
I suspect that writing did not exist at the time of the Creation War, for a simple reason: the history of Saicere, written now, seems as if it was originally oral history (what with having to memorize and recite the owners). If writing had existed, why make it an oral history? But you never know with the Adem….
One other point: Taborlin the Great (who I believe to be fictional, but set in a historical time) I’d guess lived around -800, same as Robin Hood is for us.
38: spirit thief
The first seven days seem to be named after numbers. (Compare: Caenin, the seventh day, with chen-, which meant seven in Temic, and is the root of the word Chandrian.)
Cendling = Kindling (as in fire, the day Encanis burned on the iron wheel).
Mourning was the day after, when people mourned Tehlu’s death.
spirit theif@38
Thank you for your kindness, but my contribution was worth probably 2 cents. Thistlepong’s door is where all the gifts should truly be placed.
In reference to the term “span”, PR uses the word “week” (instead of “span”?) five times in NoTW and once in WMF (Kindle versions). I think this may be an error, but I’m not certain.
Perhaps before Trapis’ story of Tehlu and Encanis, the term “week” commonly referred to a seven day cycle, and the Tehlin church/Aturan Empire (perhaps during the height of their power and 4C influence) coined the phrase “span” after adding on 4 more days to immortalise the events of Tehlu (adding in Felling, Reaving, Cendling and Mourning, and the 7 days of High Mourning).
E.G. – Trapis uses the word “week” during the Tehlu/Encanis story, a few words prior to mentioning that the day “Mourning” didn’t exist yet (NoTW Chp. 23, Kindle ref 3335).
Perhaps both terms “span” and “week” have a place in the 4C world. But if a “week” was used in the past in 4C, I wonder how easy it would be to rework an older calendar based on a 7 day week to the current 11 day span/ 4 span month / 8 month yearly calendar?
Maybe PR just made some mistakes by using “week” 6 times and should have used “span”?
Or are the words “span” and “week” interchangeable, irrespective of the number of days they represent?
I think they are interchangeable.
@thistlepong
First of I salute you for doing the work required to make this. I have a few knit-picky questions though.
Got this quote from the sample of the e-book so I don’t have a page number. But I do know it’s chapter 1.
“As he turned the bottle in his long, graceful hands the familiar motion eased a few tired lines from his face, making him seem younger, certainly not yet thirty. Not even near thirty.”
2 e-pages later “Behind the weary lines and the placid’s innkeeper’s expression he looked no older than this dark haired companion.”
Not even near thirty makes me think he’s younger than 25, I placed him around 22-23 mortal world years. Depending on the time he spent in the Faen he could easily have matured to 25, but that’s beside the point.
Kote obviously gets his name from the the Suiaru phrase for “expect disaster every seven years.” The last big disaster to affect Kvothe was when he was 12, seven years would be when he’s 19, Kilvin’s disaster was years overdue, so we could say the event possibly occurred 7-9 years after the murder of his troupe. He’s 17-18 now and K says were nearing the breaking point.
That’s just a guess, Kilvin’s statement may not be forshadowing but if it is that would put Kvothe around 19-21 at the occurance of the disaster, making him 23ish now.
Not that it matters just speculating.
Another thing of unimportance is when did Aethe and the 99 tales (the founding of the Lethani) occur? Shehyn says that the people of Ergen except the 7 betrayers were of the Lethani.
Obivously the Adem believe the Lethani existed before they did, but is it possible that the story of Aethe occured before the betrayal of Lanre?
Also on the note of Hemme being the only master to mention Taborlin the Great, and the similarity between Elodin’s escape from Haven and one of the Taborlin stories, I’d like to mention a few things.
There are 8 masters -1(Elodin) = 7 masters who imprisoned Elodin, Taborlin may be a fictional character but that story in particular could be based on Elodin.
Hemme hates Elodin, his sarcastic comment about all the students wanting to become Taborlin the great could be a reference to Elodin being eccentric and in Hemme’s mind crazy due to naming. He might find it illogical, and funny that the “stupid-ignorant-story-chasing” students may aspire to be like Elodin.
Also it is said that Taborlin went to the University to learn the names of all things, Elodin is master namer, a title achieved through The University in recognition for his Mastery at the art of Naming.
I just had a thought and i know its slightly off topic for this section.
In Tarbean, Skarpi names Kvothe to break him out of his ‘dream’ state. This name obviously reawakens the hidden parts of kvothe that were hidden when his parents died. When Skarpi is confronted by the two churchmen he says one of their names, i think that he actually said their true name, and Kvothe only percieved it as a name, like with elxa dal. He did the same thing with Kvothe, saying his true name. What if, in the frame, Kvothe is trying to teach the chronicler enough about him so that the chronicler can name Kvothe and break his slumber. He’s including, in the story, all the parts that make him who he is, and naming requires complete understanding of something. I think Kvothe might be encouraging the chronicler towards discovering his true name.
The first seven days seem to be named after numbers. (Compare: Caenin, the seventh day, with chen-, which meant seven in Temic, and is the root of the word Chandrian.) Cendling = Kindling (as in fire, the day Encanis burned on the iron wheel). Mourning was the day after, when people mourned Tehlu’s death.
–and–
Perhaps before Trapis’ story of Tehlu and Encanis, the term “week” commonly referred to a seven day cycle, and the Tehlin church/Aturan Empire (perhaps during the height of their power and 4C influence) coined the phrase “span” after adding on 4 more days to immortalise the events of Tehlu (adding in Felling, Reaving, Cendling and Mourning, and the 7 days of High Mourning).
My personal theory, which I put out in a thread back in NotW somewhere, is that the week/span was originally just seven days…the first seven, that seem to have numbers for names. And when the moon was stolen, the week got longer! (Well, probably everything got longer, but we have linguistic remnants of the earlier age in the weekday names.) And I’ve pointed out, too, that the names of the last 4 days seem to have some resonance with Trapis’s story of Tehlu and Encanis…though if my theory is correct, they would probably have to date back to the time of the Creation War when people first realized they needed four more day-names and therefore only mesh with the modern Tehlin church the same way all the “real” stories of the Creation War do–though a glass darkly. Heh.
At the reading I attended, Pat said the Aturan Empire was “Rome done right,” which meant immediately imposing its religious and legal system on conquered territories. He elaborated that the universality of the Iron Law meant that to petition the legal system one had to (learn to) speak Aturan. Hemme’s first class – the above one with the quote about fancy magics not existing – also contains the bit about the Yllish Lunar Calendar versus the more civilized Aturan Calendar. A Yllish calendar with a seven day week makes a fair amount of sense (10.3 weeks per synodic period.) The Aturans adding their own days to civilize the calendar and normalize the religion sounds right up their alley.
Is Kvothe a “disaster” because his conception was the event that got his mother disinherited?
I can see it starting as a bit of shared sarcasm and becoming a cherished in-joke.
Skip@11 – Ilien is credited with devising the new kind of lute (NOTW 12), so we can date that to his time – whenever that is.
Now, some doubts:
a. The Chthae says that Haliax has been alive for five thousand years – ‘five thousand years and not a moment’s sleep’. Taken literally, this should mean that he didn’t sleep even before he was cursed. In which case Drossen Tor etc. may be considerably less that 5000 years ago, since I don’t think people in those days had normal lifespans.
b. 3000 years for the Loeclos box is Kvothe’s estimate. Given that he seemingly misunderestimates the age of the sword, might he have misunderestimated this as well? It’s hard to know on what basis judgements could be made over such a long period of time. It seems quite likely that the box goes back to the Creation War.
c. Trapis’s suggestion that the incarnation of Tehlu tookn place a thousand years ago also looks like a rather vague estimate, from the point of view of someone who has difficulty comprehending really long periods of time – he begins by saying it was before his hearers’ fathers were born. So I think these events – if they happened at all – may also come earlier.
And a question: what’s the source for the idea that the human Amyr were founded by the Tehlin church? As I understand it, Kvothe thinks that the Amyr existed before the Tehlin church and were later incorporated into it. I don’t see that the human Amyr have to be seen as a different organisation from the original Amyr – it’s not clear why they would be so significant if they were. We can just see the original Amyr being succeeded by humans, as the nature of the people of the Four Corners changed. Felurian either isn’t aware of this or thinks the later Amyr don’t count.
Quite a lot turns on this – the dating of Savien and hence of Ilien, for instance – so it would be good to be clear about it.
AnotherAndrew@47
When Kvothe says the Lockless box is 3000 years old, Meluan seemed to be surprised at the accuracy of his estimate, and she probably has more information on the matter than Kvothe, so I’d say 3000 years for the Lockless box is corraborated, at least.
That also partially answers my question about writing: Yllish knots seem to be a true form of writing and not just code or ideograms, so that would place writing’s origin to at least 3000 years ago.
AnotherAndrew@47
a. Dating:
Haliax (Alaxel) is new: (why we date from sleeplessness)
b. It’s not just Kvothe’s guess.
Regarding Saicere, he pulls ten years out of nowhere and hedges.
c. It is vague. But significant elements line up with the foundation of the Empire and the Church.
Atur is the only named city, and the one where Tehlu burns Encanis.
And it’s revealed as a Tehlin story.
And a question: what’s the source for the idea that the human Amyr were founded by the Tehlin church?
And and answer:
And a difference:
robocarp@48
Yup. Makes sense.
The Book of the Path appears to have been written in Tema. Temic predates it by about a thousand years. And:
If it’s really Yllish on the box, that’d tie it up nicely.
The tilde (~) could work for vague dating. No language records its own inception. Well, other than esperanto.
~3000 Yllish knots
~2000 Temic
~1000 Tema
Siaru is probably ~2000, concurrent with their currency.
Modern Siaru and Modegan probably use the Aturan alphabet given their cultres were overrun.
Thistelpong@49:
b. It’s not just Kvothe’s guess. But it’s Meluan’s guess as well – perhaps based simply on the fact that they have, or once had, records going back almost that far, which didn’t mention its origin. In that case it’s just a lowest bound.
But significant elements line up with the foundation of the Empire and the Church. OK, that makes sense. Do we, than, have date for the foundation of the Empire and the Church?
And an answer:
But immediately after this Kvothe questions it – the vase shows an Amyr and is much older than that. Later after inquiring in the archives he affirms that he thinks the Amyr existed before the Tehlin Church, and he takes what Felurian says to confirm this. I take it that ‘I knew my history’ means ‘I knew the commonly accepted story’.
And a difference:
A difference, yes, but does that make it a different organisation? The original Amyr were superhuman: their successors were not, lacked the powers of the founders, and so could be called ‘children dressing in their parents’ clothes’. But I don’t see that that means that they had to be founded again – they can be seen as the result, not of a new foundation, but just of a decline from their original state.
I’m providing the list below just for fun. I don’t see how accurate we can be though.
Maybe you guys can rearrange these based on better guesses than mine.
I’ve used Thistlepong@50’s assumptions above and added in the other languages I know of & where I think they may lie….but by no means is this conclusive. Half are very rough guesses..
>Fae:- Mael language (“Skin dancer”). Bast states it’s archaic compared to the Fae language.
>5,000:- Fae language that Bast and Felurian speak
Ademic (based on the main timeline above)
Yllish (spoken language normally predates written language)
~3000:- Yllish knots
~2000:- Temic
~2000:- Siaru (is this the same as Shaldish?)
Modegan
Eld Vintic
~1000:- Tema, Aturan (Aturan is the common tongue spoken in the book)
* what native tongue do people speak who have a Lenatti accent? Is this different to what the Tahl people speak? I doubt there is any way of knowing till D3 or after.
* I’m assuming the Mael and Fae languages would be much older than 5,000 years because in the Faen realm they could be spoken for the equivalent of hundreds of thousands of years (given the magical differences in measuring time in the Faen and mortal realms). We haven’t got enough information on how many languages are spoken in the Faen realm, or when they came into effect. For all we know, they may have more languages than in 4C. They certainly have alot of time (hundreds of thousands of years) to develop different languages in the Faen realm.
Regarding writing: I would tend to think that there was writing at the time of the Creation wars. No direct evidence I can think of right now, but the civilization we see now in 4C seems on a slow recovery after the events of the Creation war. A lot seems to have been lost.
It is quite likely that there was sophisticated writing around that was mostly lost.
thistlepong@48:I would be interested in PR’s thoughts on “Rome done right.” A more uniform imposition of laws and citizenship might have been helpful. It is interesting though that the Aturan Empire only lasted 700 years. Depending on where you want to start and end counting, the Roman empire lasted either either ~500 or ~1450 years (not counting the ~500 years of Republic prior to that. So, I guess “done right” didn’t buy the Aturan’s that much more time in the grand scope of things.
I wonder if PR is thinking the Amyr and others were a weakening influence that countered the “done right” portion.
There aren’t really large spaces for “frontier” tribes to have encroached upon the Aturan’s in the 4C map so, it seems likely the pressure came from within. Since the Aturan Empire seems to have started functionally collapsing at about the same time as the Amyr disbanding, this seems likely.
@51
Naw. We have a guess in a scene where he’s having a good moment and a corroboration of same by the familial inheritor of the object. In this case, their guess is better than yours.
Yup.
It’s immaterial to the timeline. And it’s irresponsible in this context to definitively state either they are the same or they are different. We do not know.
shalter@54
And the Mortal has a host of other concerns Earth didn’t: namers and arcanists, the Seven, Tehlu & Pals, Fae…
But it was really the process. Move in. Build a church/court (same building). Everyone has to learn the language to petition. Repeat. So the lack of languages is a feature, not a bug.
thistlepong@56:Yes, but when Kvothe gave the answer, he was lacking much of the information relating to the “it’s more complicated than that” part. I think he is pretty much unwittingly caught up in the still spreading reverbations of the more complicated parts.
I’m new to this blog, haven’t been thru all the other articles or comments though I would very much like to. I’m rereading the series and just started on WMF. The little bit I have read from the other pages and comments were some discussions on his chest in his room. I don’t know if this was brought up by someone else at another time, but in Chapter 2 when K is trying to talk Aaron out of joining the army he asks him what he know’s of Kvothe, he names off some things and then mentions “He knew a song that would open any lock.” At the end of WMF he tries the keys and tells it to open. I believe the theory that the reason he doesn’t use sympathy or his Adem training is because he is trying his best to fit with the role he is playing as innkeeper and is scared to show off the Kvothe he really is instead of his power being sealed due to changing is true name or being something to do with the moon or Fae.
We know all stories are are based partly in truth. I’m wondering if this “song that would open any lock” has something to do with his chest. He didn’t sing or really say much besides cursing and telling it to open. I think this song might also play into Lady Lockless’s box or the door in the archives. I don’t remember everything from my reading of WMF the first time through so I might have just forgotten something and it has shown up already, but if this has already been discussed I would love to get pointed in the direction of those thoughts in order to see other people’s opinions on this.
I know this doesn’t have much to do with the timeline, but I just wanted to post my thought on the newest page because I thought it might get overlooked if i posted on another one where it might have been more appropriate.
Speaking of the chests, do we know that Kvothe/Kote’s chest is different from Meluan’s box? Is Pat using box to refer to the Lockless “container” as misdirection away from Kote’s “container”. Perhaps in D3 Kvothe opened the box and replaced the contents?
Frank.
Frank@59
Hi. K’s chest is made from Roah whereas the Loeclos box isn’t (a bunch of people think the Loeclos is made from wood from the same tree as the Cthaeh’s tree, which is not Roah).
Thanks, Thistlepong!
From the translators’ forum I’ve stolen this bit – Pat corrects himself for the benefit of later editions.
Chapter 30 The Broken Binding
Quote: I looked up. “What day is it?” “Shuden. The thirty-fifth.” But if it was the thirty-fifth then I only had five days to get to the University. I knew from Ben that admissions only lasted until Cendling. Pat replies: It should say “Orden. The thirty-eighth.”
thesissy@61
Thanks.
Is the translators forum accessible to the general public? I haven’t been able to find it online.
thesissy@61
My envy is crippling. Thank you.
I actually got the days and months filled in from a German reader. Their edition had an apendix.
Sylvester, a Westeros member, and Faek, who’s been involved over here, listed some name comparisons :
French & Swedish
Auri, Lanre, Haliax, Ferula, the masters, Bast, Simmon, all the girls, including Denna, Lady Lackless, Reshi, and Valaritas are unchanged.
French
Puppet is unchanged
Cinder is translated as “Cendre”, which means “Ash”, but can apparently also mean cinder…
“Tinker” is translated by “Retameur”, which is a kind of a worker, so it’s kind of a direct translation…
Swedish
“Puppet” is translated to something in between puppet and doll.
“Sinter” apparently means something along the lines of “a melted mix of minerals”
“Tinker” is more or less directly translated to a word meaning “peddler”.
@62 Sorry, but the translators’ forum is closed to all but translators, and you have to be certified by The Man himself to gain access. It’s not very important now, since WMF has been on the shelvers everywhere else for a couple of years now. But as soon as D3 surfaces there will be a great need for discretion, so that no spoilers seep out to ruin the reading experience for a lot of hopeful fans.
@63 This forum is as gemridden as the translators’ forum, I can tell you that for sure!
As for names in the Danish edition: Auri, Lanre, Haliax, Ferula, the masters, Bast, Simmon, nearly all the girls, including Denna, Lady Lackless, Reshi, and Valaritas are also unchanged here.
“Cinder” is translated into “Ash” which is nearly, but NOT the same as the tree, which is “ask”. And Mr Ash is henceforth called Mester Ask.
“Tinker” is translated into a arcaic word for a person who travels around and sells stuff as well as fixes kitchenware…
“Puppet” is translated into “Dukken”, which can mean both a puppet and a doll. (The only other option was Marionet, which sounds a bit too Italian.)
I’m not yet sure yet whether the Danish edition will have an appendix explaining the calendar and the currency, for example – so far I’ve managed to put a few more things on the map, but it doesn’t really do a lot of good.
thesissy@64
Thank you.
What additional places have you managed to place on the map? I’d be interested to hear.
Are you actually translating or did you translate the book into Danish?
@56 Thistlepong and others re age of the Loeclos box —
Naw. We have a guess in a scene where he’s having a good moment and a corroboration of same by the familial inheritor of the object. In this case, their guess is better than yours.
I didn’t interpret the scene:
How old would you think?” Alveron interjected hungrily. “Perhaps three thousand years,” I said. “Give or take.” Meluan stiffened in surprise. “I am close to your own guesses I take it?” She nodded mutely.
as confirmation that “close” to Meluan’s guess means that hers is accurate. Or, for that matter, that her guess was 3000 years. The family estimate could be 4000 or 4500 years, and I think that she would still be surprised that Kvothe guessed it was 3000 years old — she doesn’t actually say “why yes, that happens to be exactly our estimate, too.”
Consider that the oldest mention of the Lackless family is -1300. If I were a member of the family, and had an OLD family artifact that I showed someone, I would expect them to guess a few hundred years; maybe 1000. If someone guessed that it was anywhere over 1300 years I’d be incredibly surprised, particularly if they guessed that it was twice as old as the oldest mention of the family name.
It’s also important to remember that the family has no idea what’s in the box, or how to get into it. If they had more information about it (enough to make an accurate guess about its age), then they would likely have some idea what’s in it.
In summary, 1) we don’t actually know what the family’s estimate is for the age, 2) we don’t know for sure that they have any accurate information, and 3) nothing really points either way. I’m with Andrew @51 that 3000 is just a “lowest bound” for the age.
shalter @57
::complete agreement::
shalter@29
I dunno about outright guesses. Segmenting the years between Elodin being chancelor and Kvothe entering The Arcanum makes some provacative associations that may be entirely spurious. If we find any estimate of any master’s age we might start to plot the rest.
thesissy@64
Thanks for filling that in. I started looking through the Spanish edition, but I’m completely out of practice.
JohnPointe@66
For the purposes of the timeline I pretty much took the text at its word. Some of the dates are vague. When Kvothe says, “I had always known he was nearing his third score of years,” I could put Abenthy on the timeline, but not too specifically.
I don’t want to invalidate whatever theories rest on an older, or newer, Loeclos box. However, the simplest interpretation of a nod in response to a yes/no binary is as affirmation. If we choose to ignore that datum, then we should also accept that a reasonable lower bound for the set of ages for the Loeclos Box would be more like 600 years and the upper the theft of the moon.
Again, compliments to Thistlepng on your very comprehensive work.
A few niggles:
The land cracks and the sky changes. Here I think we can safely add that the landmass of Yll is separated from the larger landmass/continent of the 4c’s. On the map the water that separates the two is called The Reft and the coasts of Yll and the Commonwealth are similar in shape. I believe this is of significance.
I believe that Iax spoke to the Ctheath before he shaped Faen. Re. Hespes story. “some said the boy was born under a bad star, that he was cursed, that he had a demon riding his shadow” Cursed, ill-luck-bad choices/negative consequences are associated with CTH. Demon is a common idyiom for a fae/magical creature. Shadows are strongly linked as a sign of CTh’s influence.
(*irrelevent to the timeline but the star part is catching at something in my mind. Stars, Alue, Aleph, power-how did these original powerful beings come to be?)
(also here we see a clear example of a story concerning folk pre/during CW. As are stories of Felurian, Amyr etc. I dont think we can safely dismiss Tarbolins’ story filtering down the ages as well. Obv twisted in truth, the all-hero.)
I also think there needs to be clarification that Ceald as a country was established at the same time as the currency, from a nomadic folk. We know the Adem were once nomadic, as are the Ruh and we know the Ceald have knowledge of Faen, rather than typical Tehlin beliefs. I believe this has relevance to figuring out the greater plot. (also Skarpi’s one story is mentioned as being, in part, located in the money houses of the Cealdim-or words to that effect)
On K: a few things that may have significance.
0-babe in arms he hums in harmony with his mother (music/singing and power are linked. He does not have a first word he has a first note (or descending something or another! Sorry I can remember where that little tidbit comes from)
2-5 K is taken to meet his Mothers’ family. Once. (Netalia Lockless, the rift in the family over her elopement, a possible attempt at reconciliation, or perhaps something to do with awknoding one of Lackless blood. These are suppositions, but the fact of that singular visit is significant in some way.)
Laclith (another version of Lackless) travels with and teachs K. This has implications of at least some continued contact with the Lackless family. “when I was younger” is the time ref but maybe Thistlepng or one of you other clever folk can sublimate that into an age. :)
Above someone suggested filling out the timeline of what happens in the frame. I think this is a rather good idea, Ive just stared rerererererreading NotW. (also my eyes are starting to blur so Im just going to put some bits down in order of when these event occur, they’ll need to be translated into the above dating method. Felling night is the central point of ref for time.)
-3 years ago you did not have to worry about locking your door (The Event, or the effects of the Event had not yet occured)
-1 1/2 years ago K and Bast arrive in Newware
-There is a levy. Spring.***
-4 months b4 FN the Roah for the mounting board is ordered from Aryen
-There is a levy.Summer.
-2 moths b4 FN the roads get paricularily bad.
-2 span before Felling night/scrael the last caravan passes through Newarre. Inflation. Dangerous roads.
-Previous Cendling something happens on Sheps’ farm that makes him desire an amulet that protects from Demons and such
1. Night. Silence (Autumn)
2.Felling Night. Scrael bought to Waystone.
3. Night. Gossip-The Penitant King** having a difficult time with rebels in Resavik.Villegers/whitnesses buy iron.
4. Day. Chronicler robbed outside Abbots Ford.*
7. Mounting board for Folly arrives. (under hot iron the Roah wood smells of “old leather and clover”)
. Caravan arrives. K is recognised.
8.Caravan leaves. Kote gets iron. Closes inn early.
Night. K performs some sort of summoning for the Scrael (scent of burning hair and rotting flowers). Chronicler arrives at fire. K kills 5 scrael.
9. Waystone. K agrees to tell his tale.
* Chroniclers journey. Linwood-Abbots Ford-Rannish-Newarre-Baedn-Treya
He gets robbed just before AF. He then continues, tries to buy a horse in AF and Rannish. Rannish is ‘less than” 30 miles from Newarre. He then walks for two days and is halfway to Newware where he meets K. Ive allowed for Chronicler to arrive at AF the same day he is robbed, a day to Rannish, plus the two days walking. Obv the day for Rannish is an est.
As I said Im only just starting to note these details down, but if/when the day is mentioned later in the frame we should be able to work out the above correctly.
**There are also Penitant priests in the Tehlin church who wear chains of iron.
***We know there have been two levies and a third expected. It is autumn, if they had recieved a levy each season of the last year it would follow that they would expet another in the Autumn given the political climate worsening. But the times of the levies are my reasoning not stated.
@50 thistlepong
Modern Siaru and Modegan probably use the Aturan alphabet given their cultures were overrun.
Actually I wonder to which extent the Aturan empire ever invaded Modeg and Ceald. What we do know is that the Aturan empire once conquered most of Vintas (formerly Vint), and invaded Yll as well. The current Commonwealth was likely part of the Empire too until its downfall.
The modegan seem way too proud for a people whose culture has been overrun, and they claim uninterrupted succession from long before the Empire existed. The Cealdish retain a very distinctive culture and language so I doubt they were ever invaded. Since they act as the 4 corner’s bankers, anyone who attacks them is basically destroying his own economy.
@anyone discussing the translation to try to get information from them
they’re less accurate than the english version. Certain languages don’t have words for all the english words and vice verca. Phrasing is changed, along with other things. Also the people who do the translations do it based on their interpretation.
I had a creative writing teacher last year who had several books published, one of his books was an Best Seller Book but it was crime/mystery I’m not sure of the title or his pen name, even though he read excerpts. I remember him saying that the german version had certain details wrong, and he was unhappy about that.
There was also some American poet, who was severely criticized for purposely mistranslating a lot of foreign poetry particularly eastern poetry, so that it agreed with his ideals.
Also I said this before but a lot of people commented at that time and it got over looked.
The Taborlin story where he escapes from the prison, yeah the one that matches up with Elodin’s escape, it is said the Chandrian trapped him there. I think it’s interesting that there are 7 masters other than Elodin. Taborlin is said to have learned naming form the University. Could all be a coincidence or those Taborlin could have absorbed Elodin’s reputation. Taborlin probably didn’t exist, and is just a conglomerate of stories about different people.
70. adamshekerjian
@anyone discussing the translation to try to get information from them => they’re less accurate than the english version.
That would be true for most authors, but Pat is known to work very closely with his translators. He’s got a translator board running and is very diligent about answering questions on it. So it’s entirely possible that he’s given additional tidbits of information for the translated versions, or clarified some points that were ambiguous in the original text.
However, it’s impossible for us to figure out which pieces of info come from PR and which are of the translator’s invention – so in short there’s nothing we can learn for sure from translated editions.
I think it’s interesting that there are 7 masters other than Elodin.
Hmm, 7 cities plus one, 7 masters plus one, 7 strings on a lute (Illien had 1 more, K is Six-strings), 7 chandrian plus one who “remembered the Lethani”. Titillating but I just don’t know what to make of it! Oh and that Adem with the maimed hand had 7 fingers left too. Teccam’s septagy. Sevens everywhere!
Zolt@69
I’m surprised I didn’t post about this before. I asked him how far the empire extended.
Yll managed to hold a little corner “because they were cussed.” Ceald and Modeg held onto areas no bigger that Yll’s island in their extreme northwestern and extreme northeastern corners, respectively. What is now the Commonwealth was completely overrun, as were the Small Kingdoms and, obviously, Atur. The Kingdom of Vint was “absorbed,” including the entirety of Vintas.
In April of last year, he didn’t consider any of that spoiler territory. In fact, the “Rome done right” comment and the information that the church and courthouse were a single building were sort of tertiary to the above.
As I was looking around in the text for Elodin age references (a dozen years younger) I noticed that twelve’s abound also. It is used in a number of curses “beat twelve distinct colors of hell out of you”, “Only a twelve-color bastard”, the twelve Gray, ” “his father is one of the twelve most powerful men in all of Vintas”, …
I can easily imagine Mr. Rothfuss describing the satisfaction on Elodin’s face as he spreads the story of Taborlin being captured by the Seven, knowing that he was actually captured by the seven. Hemme would have hated the comparison. It seems to match the revealed tendencies of both Elodin and Mr. Rothfuss. I am intrigued.
I hate to burst a bubble but there are 9 masters, 8 if you are holding Elodin separate. (perhaps the confusion comes from (argh) one of them falls sick later).
1.Master Physiker-Arwyl
2.Master Archivist-Lorren
3.Master Arithmatician-Brandeur
4.Master Artificer- Kilvin
5.Master Alchemist-Mandrag
6.Master Rhetorician-Hemme
7.Master Symapthist-Elxa Dal
8.Master Linguist & Chancellor- (sorry im taking this from p.236 NotW and his name is not mentioned here, though I believe Elodin uses it at a later point) EDIT Herma p.228 NotW
9.Master Namer -Elodin
In this section the Chancellor also makes the mistake of saying 8 master then corrects himself. We know that Elodin is the most recent member. His status is rather odd in comparison to the others. They give him deep respect almost instinctively, but also mock him. This implies that a Master Namer is not a title that is used very often/recently. Naming being akin to the sort of Magic Hemme mocks.
Also the Tarbolin story we ‘hear’ does not say he was trapped by the Chandrian. He was traped by King Syphus, which has been noted with possibly correlating with Cyphus. (I’ve spelt one of those wrong, forgive me). We get a lot of one-liners associated with Tarbolin and fighting the Chandrian I believe is one of those, but I am not certain…
Timeline: Elodin was Chancellor 5 years ago*. This needs to be entered into timeline.
*When K is 15.
K describes the chancellor as “Probably on the far side of forty” and later describes Arwyl as ‘grandfatherly’. This implies that Arwyl is older than the C. K then describes Elodin as about a dozen years younger than the others. Its reasonable to take this from the younger given age as if he had taken it from the older, there would be no younger comparison, both Elodin and the C would be about of an age in comp’ to Arwyl…so..
If we say that the C is 48 (Far side of forty, an even number, but enough below 50 for it to be reasonable that K didnt just say 50)
-Elodin would be 36. (K 15)
-Elodin becomes Master Namer 36
-( makes attempts to speak to Auri)
-Elodin escapes Crockery
-Elodin gets locked in the Crockery after ‘it’ happens** EDIT for 2 yrs p.314 NotW
-He would have been C at 31 (K10)
-Elodin leaves uni at 20/21 (about the time K is born) Chases wind. Has interactions with the Adem, possiby goes to Ademre. Learns of the Moon, Fae etc etc. Much like K really. Oh and learns enough to become C upon return.
-Giller for a ‘couple of years’. A couple is usually 2/3 so..18-20/21
-Full arcanist at 18
– entered uni at 14
**’It’ (whatever it was!) that happened to Elodin does seem to correlate with the Troupe’s massacre/K meeting the Chandrian.
A Fox@76: Glad ::approval:: to see that through a slightly different route you arrived at dates very close to the ones I did in message @29. I think we are pretty close and the massacre/It correlation is intriguing. Maybe nothing, maybe everything.
The Elodin Chancellor at -5 is in the timeline.
Is there any room for Elodin to have been Vashet’s Poet King? Seems unlikely but I got an Elodin vibe from Vashet’s description of the man she served with, and it would explain his knowledge of sophisticated Ademre gestures.
And, if not Elodin, then who? The Poet King is a medium sized Checkov’s Gun waiting to be fired.
RobMRobM@78: I don’t know about the Poet King, but I had a lol as I pictured opening D3 and having a whole bunch of gunfire emerge as all of the Checkov’s Guns started firing.
A Fox: We hear two stories about Taborlin, one (at the beginning of NOTW) where he’s trapped by the Chandrian, and one (in WMF) where he’s trapped by Scyphus.
And wouldn’t Elodin have already been Master Namer at the same time that he was Chancellor? Chancellor seems to be an office you hold concurrently with one of the Masterships, not a job in its own right.
A Fox @76
Nice work! We can tuck three points in with some confidence. The rest are pretty much guesses, though.
* Trapis born
*Abenthy enters the University (18)
* Elodin born (tentative)
-35 Larkin Ledgers burned ending 15 years of Scriv Holy War
*Abenthy knows as much as Kvothe@11 (20)
-30 Manet enrolled at university
-30 Master Archivist Tollem dies
-24 Maershon Lerand Alveron succeeds his father (16)
* Elodin enters University (14) ::see below::
* Elodin gets his gil’the (18)
-18 Simmon Dalonir born
:: I’d prefer to put Elodin before Alveron’s succession, but that makes it look like he and Manet line up closer than they do. ::
Can you match either Arwyl or Herma to another master in relative age? That’d go a long way toward sorting them.
AnotherAndrew@80
Elodin would have been a Master, and probably Master Namer. Good call.
shalter@79
Maybe Rothfuss is trying to create a new subtrope: Chekov’s Gunfight.
Gnomic drivel:
The consistent thing about the Taborlin stories we see is that flames are always blue when he’s around.
@80 Duh ::embarassment:: I stand corrected. I can only say that I was concentrating on the material for @68 when I reread that a couple of nights ago…
MN/C. We do not know that the titles of Chancellor and Master are always together. They are definately two seperate offices. We do not know if you have to be a Master to become C.
As I said in my previous comment. The C accidently says 8 masters then asks Jaimeson to strike that and ammends it to 9. This implies that one of the Masters is very new. It is implied that the other Masters have held their posts for a reasonable long time. There is also the implication re ch. 44. That Elodins role is not defined, in fact new. His manner that we have whitnessed is strongly associated with his ability to Name. He was not like this before the event. Others know names but are not Master Namer. It could be argued that he evidenced a Mastery of Naming during his escape from the Crockery (Much like the way in which K gains entrance to the Arcanum (spsorry)). All of this strongly suggests that Elodin became Master Namer after escaping from the Crockery and likely very recently to K arriving at the uni (this doesnt mean his escape was that recent, due processes and what not).
Of course this doesnt mean he was not a Master of something else when he was C.
@77 ::respect, frindly smile:: I made the mistake of reading the timeline when it went up…then leaving it a few days. By which point there was a host of comments which I ploughed through (some of which contained similar points which I didnt want to repeat). Your post caught in my mind and I rather vaguely refd you/r ideas in @68 (and no doubt others).
We certainly did arrive at the same point, my intention of repeating it was to see if it still correlated with the tidbits I had come across in my latest reread.
Its actually quite frustrating viewing things in this manner, as we can see these correlations and catch a glimmer of how they link together…but only a glimmer. Damn you PR!
Arliden the Bard/the Lackless Court/Lorren
-Lorren/Scarpi/Tehlin Church (in opposition)/Lorren’s map & folk that ‘collect books’
Elodin cracking/Chandrian/Massacre
Officials in Atur being offed/The attempt on the Maers life (Same person?)
(Sorry for double post)
@81 Thanks! :)
Relative ages. I dont have much so far, but will certainly keep an eye out.
The masters are described as “Mature to ancient”
I will list some descriptions that indicate where they fir in that scale.
Kilvin “Bristling black beard”
Mandrag “Clean shaven and smooth faced”
Elxa Dal “Severe dark eyes, lean face, short black beard”
Brandeur “portly and balding”
Arwyl “his specticles, the grandfatherly lines on his face framing a fierce scowl”
Lorren “pale and unnaturaly tall” However: the stories regarding Lorren, Elodins interactions with him indicate he has been present at the uni for some time.
Scriv wars & Tolem are spoken of as an important time for the library, it’s recent history. It is likely that Lorren became Master after Tolem. Elodin was the youngest C at 31, whther or not he was Master Namer at the time, I think we can safely say that the age of which one gains Mastery would not be much younger than that of when one becomes C.
This gives us a minimum of 31 for Lorrens Mastery.
31+30(Tolem dies)+15(K’s age at admissions)=76
76 is a relative minimum age for Lorren. (who appears relatively younger than Arwyl)
Curiously do we have an average life span?
This post has nothing to do with the current discussion, I’m afraid. Sorry for always blurting stuff out without context!
@thistlepong:
Thanks for reminding me about the translations! I have access to Swedish and English versions of tNotW and can look up things on request if anyone is interested.
I dug out the books yesterday when I saw your comment and had a look at the Lackless rhyme, and it is a bit interesting.
In Swedish:
“Nåden Lazless har sju saker
gömda under dräkten svarta
Ett: en ring, ej för att bära
Två: ett skarpt ord, dock ej svära
Just där maken håller ljuset
vredlös dörr bevakar huset
I ett skrin förutan lås
har hon makens stenar två
En hemlighet hon länge gömt,
Fastän vaken har hon drömt
På en väg där ingen far
söker Lazless gåtans svar.”
This means the exact same thing as the English version, but has some minor differences. Lackless is changed into Lazless, which doesn’t hold any meaning in Swedish (if you pronounce it really sloppy and really want to hear “lock less” in Swedish then you can, but it’s really, really stretching things far), so that can probably be ignored.
The interesting thing is these lines
“Just där maken håller ljuset
vredlös dörr bevakar huset”
which losely translates to
“Right where her husband holds the candle
a door without a handle guards the house”
I don’t know if it’s relevant for anything; it’s probably only there because “house” rhyme with “candle” in Swedish. Nonetheless, since this is an important verse, Mr. Rothfuss himself must probably have cleared it before printing it.
I’m not sure what everyone else thought about the translations (if you’ve read any), but I’m very disappointed. I would never have bought the second book had I read in Swedish only. (Luckily, I bought the Swedish translation only to compare the names, songs and verse). Rothfuss beautiful language is completely gone, it’s using archaic wording and many dialoges feel very artificial.
@@@@@ 73. thistlepong
Wow, this is great! I’m a late comer to this reread so I probably have missed earlier mentions entirely.
So Atur was one hell of a powerhouse in its heyday, with the Church as its guiding force and the Amyr as both its heart and fist. I wonder what he means by the “Roman Empire done right” comment. What exactly did the romans do wrong compared to Atur?
@@@@@83 A. Fox
I’m not sure if we can just assume that Lorren succeeded Tolem. It isn’t explicitly stated.
As for the lifespan, Abenthy seemed quite healthy in his seventies. I think that for arcanists at least lifespan would be comparable to ours. They have a good understanding of hygiene and the basics of medicine, and food that’s probably healthier than ours. If they manage not to poison themselves at the fishery, I’m not surprised to see some active men in their 70’s.
Ben is described as approaching his 3rd score of years implying a score is 20, so he is not yet 60 when he travels with the edema.
The people of 4c have more advanced science/medicine/tech so they will have a tendancy to live longer than our world midieval era.
Although being an arcanist make someone more aware of better health practices.
Kvothe says some of the masters look ancient, so I think your assumption about their longevity is rather accurate.
Some alchemical solutions may slow the rate at which one ages, at least physically, regardless age is rather speculative in these books. Chronicler is older than Kvothe, yet Chronicler recently attended the university even though he he wrote the mating habits of the common Draccus before Kvothe attended the University.
My bad, I misremembered it as 4th score.
A Fox @83
Because Fela didn’t say explicitly that Lorren had succeeded Tollem, I wondered if she wasn’t suggesting at least one Master Archivist between them. I figured, after your assumptions about Arwyl, Herma, and elodin, that Arwyl was the eldest. Since Kvothe described Abenthy as “approaching his third score,” I’m starting to think that one must only be 60-70 to qualify for grandfather-old.
Faek@84
I know nothing about sweedish but, “Två: ett skarpt ord, dock ej svära,” looks like exactly the same sentence structure as English. Is that just for the sake of poetry or are they structured the same?
I’d forgotten that Lackless was changed, so thanks for bringing it up. The part you translated – guards the house – is pretty interesting. A family with one or two anceint secrets might depend on them staying secret, or it could be something else.
Zolt@85
I’m sure other folks are better educated about Rome and can elucidate this better, but I think they were less agressive about language. law, and religion as they conquered. Atur is an American fantasy: eliminate the native culture and replace it with your own.
@65 -(sorry my answer is late – a few days off the board is a lot when the crowd goes wild)
The answer to both questions is yes. I couldn’t fathom why Book One wasn’t a hit, and I grived the fact that Books Two and Three would never publish. But it seems to have been translated or rather rewritten by the original translator to fit fantasy readers age 12-19, and the result was rather disastrous.
So I offered to re-translate Book One for re-publishing (in fact the deed is already done) solely with the purpose of being allowed to translate Book Two and Three. And I did close that deal, thank you very much. ::smug satisfaction::
As for little places on the map – nothing that isn’t already on the map in Book Two. The Danish map of Book One, paperback ed., did not have Tinuë and Anilin in it. I just put them back. ::humble::
oops, and @38: re names of the days in a span
Again, notes from the translator’s forum.
The first seven days are numbers – day nr 7 is Chaen, hence Chandrian
Felling, Reaving, Cendling, and Mourning all have rough English translations or at least strong associations. These have religious significance tied to the Tehlin religion, and to the observant reader, this is revealed in the story told by Skarpi.
Felling – “Fell” as in you fell a tree by chopping it down.
(This is the day when Tehlu felled Encanis.)
Reaving – “Reave” (Archaic) means to seize and carry away. To steal or pillage.
(Tehlu’s interrogation of Encanis.)
Cendling – Kindling, lighting a fire.
(The day they lit the fire that would burn Encanis.)
Mourning – Mourning as in grieving, not the beginning part of the day.
(They day they mourn the death of Tehlu.)
thesissy@90
The name for the seventh day in the German appendix was also Chaen.
I had two problems with that. First, Trapis says “that’s why we celebrate on Caenin,” during his story. The second, more baffling, is that Laurian doesn’t know what Chaen means when she and Arliden are talking to Abenthy about the Chandrian. She’s not even sure what language it is.
thistlepong@88
Yes, it’s practically the same, and could be directly translated as
“Two: a sharp word, not for swearing”
Another minor thing is that you’d never say / write it like that; “skarpt ord” just doesn’t make much sense (although it’n not entirely incorrect, I guess). My guess is that there some pun to the “sharp word” wording to be reveiled in book three. :-)
thesissy@89
Nice! I think the Swedish translation suffers from the same problem that you mention. It’s written in a sort of childish way, but with partly archaic language. I should probably get your translation as well to further continue my research; I shouldn’t have that much problem reading Danish ;-)
I’ve just edited the post to add the things that look solid from comments.
Thanks Jo for adding those in.
Would you mind changing the following please:
(a)
From:
-14 Elodin enrolled at University
-18 Elodin gets his gil’the
To:
Elodin enrolled at University (14)
Elodin gets his gil’the (18)
(b)
Move “Elodin gets his gil’the (18)” just above “-18 Simmon Dalonir born”
Zolt@85:We don’t really have enough info here to determine exactly what PR meant by the “Rome done right” comment. From what context we have, he could have been implying that the Aturans imposition of their culture upon conquered territories aided in their stability. The Roman empire was actually very tolerant of religious diversity (exceptions were generally on political rather than religious grounds) and as long as they payed their taxes and obeyed Roman dictates, the Romans didn’t generally care what the subject peoples believed.
PR could also have been referring to the slowness of the Empire in granting citizenship rights. This has sometimes been listed as one cause leading to the eventual decline of the Western empire. However, the eventual granting of full citizenship has also been listed, so your mileage may vary. The discussions around what the causes of the decline of Rome might have been continue to today, everyone has their favorite bit and the discussions make our in depth reread here look like a mere whisper (hey they had a fifteen hundred year head start). :-)
PR may have meant something else entirely of course. Either statement is interesting and has been argued for and against but in the end is not really fully supported.
As Kvothe correctly stated, “But of course it’s more complicated than that.” Any analysis of the actual decline of Rome hinges upon a myriad of details and, no doubt, the actual decline of Atur was complicated as well.
Although AFox burst my bubble, he gave me enough to fill up another one.
So, let me see if I can put together the case for Elodin being Taborlin the Great. It is far from open and shut, but I think there is more support than there are difficulties. If you think otherwise, fire away.
Similar to what Jezdynamite said in #13, it is pretty clear that the way Old Cob tells stories of Kvothe is much like the way he tells stories of Taborlin. Mr. Rothfuss clearly wants to make the point that, with a little mischievous meddling and some time, a true story about a Master cracking, being imprisoned, and escaping could become Taborlin the Great being imprisoned by the Chandrian and breaking free. So, there is a tenuous connection having to do with a major theme of the books, the nature of stories. I think that connection (as well the striking parallelism of Kvothe and Elodin and the fact that this is the mentor trope so common in fantasy and Mr. Rothfuss loves doing his version of common tropes) adds some heft to the idea.
Support:
1. Elodin exhibits on many occasions the same childish demeanor as Kvothe, indicating he is certainly not above spreading “enhanced” stories about himself. There’s the finger guessing-game at Kvothe’s first admission interview, he prods or insults Hemme and Ambrose in front of others, he burns Hemme’s clothes (though this is more discreet than Kvothe burning Hemme’s foot), and I’m sure we could find more. The story of Taborlin being imprisoned by the Chandrian would be the perfect mischievous turn to the true story of the seven other Masters imprisoning him. Spreading a story or song to shame your enemies seems to be the sort of thing brilliant, immature, angry people do. The naming of the Bloodless also shows Elodin has a proclivity for spreading stories (Kilvin calls it “Elodin’s dramatic nonsense”). AFox raised a difficulty with this idea in #76, the number of masters, which I address below.
2. Elodin also brings Kvothe to a “small, cozy pub” he’s never seen before (WMF, Ch. 144), despite the fact that Kvothe was checking all the taverns when Ambrose had him blacklisted. A good knowledge of taverns helps to choose the right place to spread stories.
3. Elodin immediately recognizes Kvothe’s shaed and knows the proper adjective, “enshaedn” (WMF, Ch. 144). Sounds like he may have had a cloak of no particular color himself at some time.
4. This is a more complex point, but it begins with this thought, taken from Thistlepong’s timeline:
“only a few rare stories survive very long in the Mortal. Taborlin’s widespread contemporary presence coupled with the above quote place him, generously, within five hundred years” (Also see NotW Ch. 26 and WMF Ch. 86 for examples of the stories that are popular.)
I would suggest that Taborlin stories are so widespread that they are likely nearly contemporary. There are only two people that Old Cob tells stories about, until Kvothe feeds him another. He never begins any of the stories with a long intro setting the time—no “once upon a time”, no long Trapis-like fumbling for an era (though we don’t necessarily see the beginnings of the stories).
Doesn’t it seem possible that the reason the Kvothe and Taborlin stories both get told wit hsuch frequency, is because they are both fairly recent (especially to people living in the middle of nowhere)? Granted, it certainly seems the Kvothe stories are more recent.
5. Elodin’s reaction to Kvothe’s question about a girl changing her name in WMF Ch. 149 is intense. He clearly assumes that Kvothe is talking about changing deeper names not “calling names”. He seems to think that only Fela (among females) might have a chance of attempting that procedure, but regardless, he seems to have significant knowledge of the procedure. What better way to gain such knowledge than undergoing such a change?
Difficulties:
1. As AFox said in #76, there are now nine masters. However, as he also points out, there was likely not a Master Namer before Elodin broke free:
“In this section the Chancellor also makes the mistake of saying 8 master then corrects himself. We know that Elodin is the most recent member. His status is rather odd in comparison to the others. They give him deep respect almost instinctively, but also mock him. This implies that a Master Namer is not a title that is used very often/recently. Naming being akin to the sort of Magic Hemme mocks.”
That would have left Elodin and seven masters to imprison him. I imagine Elodin being master sympathist before Elxa Dal because Elxa Dal sounds like a young, fun teacher, but perhaps, as AFox says in #82, he was just Chancellor and not a Master.
2. Taborlin has his staff and sword (and key, coin and candle from WMF Ch. 83). Elodin is never seen with these things, nor is he describe in any way that would indicate he could use a sword. On the bright side, these things certainly would have been taken away when he was imprisoned. Maybe Auri was around when Elodin cracked/was imprisoned to recover the key, coin, and candle.
3. I imagine there are more. Fill in the blank!
I suspect that Taborlin the Great is a composite person. Various pieces of the story could probably be traced back to the exploits of various different arcanists through history. The escape story could very possibly be from Elodin’s escape from the Rookery. The meeting with the king could have been some other arcanist.
This could have occured as a natural coalescence of stories onto a well known folklore figure, or it may even have been guided a bit by the arcanists desiring a positive public relations slant upon magic in general.
weasel@96
Elxa Dal was already Master Sympathist when Elodin was starting out as a student at the University. Elodin first spoke the name of the wind when arguing with Elxa Dal about being taught advanced sympathetic bindings. Elodin wouldn’t have been arguing with a giller over that kind of special treatment.
With regard to Tabolin:
Initially I thought Elodin was making a kind of joke, and bragging a bit, by narrating the parallels between his escape and the presumably well-known story of Taborlin. While I don’t necessarily think Elodin = Taborlin I am coming around to the idea that Taborlin may be a composite character. Whether or not he really existed stories about magical doings get attached to him because it’s about magic and he’s the most famous magical guy so it must have been him what done it, right?
Dagnabbit. shalter scooped me while I was typing.
Naw, your bit about Elodin and Dal is solid. I’d also point out that Chronicler was at the University for three years and studied under a Master Namer. At the very least that jostles some of the guesses about the five years prior to Kvothe’s admission and argues for the post existing before Elodin’s escape.
Anyone want to give me a hypothetical timeline of Chronicler’s life? That confuses me to no end.
@96 I gently urge you to look again at the list of Masters. Discounting Elodin for a moment, as we are unsure at which point he became Master, there are still 8. And these 8 have certainly been in their respective positions for 5 years at least. Elodin is the latest addition.
Also considering @100 it is possible that there were 9 masters (or are always 9 masters-to tied votes) as we do not know if Elodin wa the MN that taught Chronicler. (IMO I think it likely that it was Elodin…from some vague remembered thing. Which probably makes the contents of this braket obsilete)
Frame: No direct refs, sorry. But doesnt Chronicler mention being at the Uni 10yrs ago? If K’s theorised age of 25 is correct then it is possible that chronicler was studying under Elodin (likely as a giller) not long before K arrived.
Perhaps the previous Master Namer was Skarpi…;)
Aslo…::raises eyebrows::
He. He?
EDIT: double post
I’ve been trying to pin down when Devi was at the University, which might help with a few other things.
The following hinges on Mola. Since she’s a student of the Medica we know some minimums for her time at the University. She had to spend 1.5 years as an El’ir and 2 years as a Re’lar. Kvothe implies Arwyl might have waited longer than normal to elevate her to El’the, which she attains shortly before Kvothe leaves. And, while it’s largely glossed over, achieving El’ir and entering the Arcanum requires at least one term. Manet bets ambitiously that Kvothe could do it in three terms and Willem takes the bet, figuring it’s unlikely.
So it’s a safe bet that Mola’s been a student for 4.5-5 years, if not more.. Devi showed her the ropes when she was new, so that puts her entrance at least 5 years before Kvothe. Devi was expelled in her second year, or -3 years, during Sim’s first term.
That pretty much guarantees Sim was 16 when he entered the Arcanum. He might have been 15, considering he talks about studying Eld Vintic in his first term and Wil marks Sim’s entrance to the Arcanum with his taste for Alchemy and poetry.
Only problem with that is Abenthy and the Masters comments re entree age. 17 is seen as a young age, K’s 15 is remarkable (hence why he brags of it so much) and Elodins’ 14 is seen as eceptional.
It’s not a problem. It’s just another special bit about Simmon: son of a duke, hears “wind” when Elodin calms Kvothe with Aerlevsedi. He’s Re’lar when Kvothe gets back, way ahead of normal; and he’s quick to note who was really the youngest admitted.
I think it unlikely that Elodin was not a master when he was Chancellor, because Herma’s duties as Chancellor don’t seem to be onerous – they are confined largely to chairing meetings as far as we can see – or to interfere with his work as Master Linguist; so it wouldn’t really make sense to appoint someone just for that. Also this fits in with the practice of mediaeval universities, still operating to some extent in Oxbridge colleges, where administrative officers are typically chosen from among the teachers rather than appointed separately.
This is compatible with his previously having been Master something else. But I’m not sure of this. He already has a reputation for not teaching, which he couldn’t have acquired if his position is new; and it seems to me more likely that someone already on the faculty would stop teaching, and people be unable to do anything about this, than that someone would be appointed with no duties from the start. Might the ‘eight masters’ thing just mean that he hasn’t turned up to meetings for the last few years?
All right, I have to concede that sounds far more likely. Which then makes it more likely that Elodin was comparing himself to a story that already existed, rather than embellishing his own story. Oh, well.
How about Chronicler? Did he go to study at the University later in life, as a break or extension of his Chronicling duties? +5 to +8 or something?
@104 re. Mola. I am under the impression that she was held back for bringing sympathy wax as part of her tools to treat a patient. Arwyl’s sarcastic questioning implies this was very recent, in the current term. (p281 notw) . Quite similar to the way Lorren will suspend pupil’s access to the archives for a span or two for misdemeanors. Two terms / 1/2 year then pass before she is made El’the. This corresponds with wils “she’s been Re’lar for almost three years now”. She becomes El’the at the begining of K’s 3rd term.
Sim. p.239 Notw. “Simmon was young for student, though still a couple of years my senior” “his face was still boyish”
We also know he is sexually active, and it is implied that he is bi-sexual.
Wil ” a young man” “His characteristic Ceadlish dark hair and eyes made him seem older than Simmon and me, but he still had the slightly awkward look of a boy who isnt used to being man-sized yet.”
Manet “at least 50 yearls old”
Both Mola and Fela “a young woman”
Timeline: -50 Manet born (tenative)
Sorry for double post…but (rereading…)
K never recognises D upon seeing her. She is always just a beautiful/lovely (or similar) girl in the crowd etc. On second glance is always when he realises its her…considering his almost instant infatuation and her comment that its surprising what men forget…well its niggling at me!
@109 re Sim: We also know he is sexually active, and it is implied that he is bi-sexual.
I didn’t pick that up anywhere — care to share where you found that implication? If valid, it totally went over my head.
Re Elodin/Taborlin/Master Namer. My interpretation of the whole Elodin issue is that he was a Chancellor and Master, cracked, went to the rookery, and took awhile to start taking up his “duties” as a Master again. As AnotherAndrew hypothesizes in @107, I got the feeling that Elodin usually doesn’t show up at meetings/admissions. Thus, the Chancellor is used to refering to the 8 attending Masters, and has forgotten that Elodin is actually there… I also believe that the post of Master Namer is a traditional one — there’s always a MN, because Naming is a legitimate form of magic.
Arcanists are often a little nuts, Namers are frequently a bit more nuts, and Elodin was even more nuts than ost, and that explains why the other Masters at times mock him. (Though they definitely respect his power and the control that he could potentially have over them — they’re described as being a little uneasy around him. Definitely understandable if you know that this slightly unstable person could theoretically rip you to shreds with a single word.) The other Masters also mock Kilvin when he asks Kvothe about the ever-burning lamp — they squabble a bit about each other faults and quirks.
Now, that raises the question of why he happened to start turning up again around the time that Kvothe first comes to the University, and whether that’s a coincidence or not… Probably yes, but perhaps no.
Chalk me up with the “Taborlin is a compilation” crowd. His legend may be based on a real person, but extra stories have gotten ascribed to him over the years (and I think his historic personna goes back at least a few hundred years — though this could perhaps be contradicted by the fact that Arcanists used to be burned a few hundred years previously.)
Ceadlish; Sheyem-Balanced. Cealds not over run by Aturan Empire, lanugae beliefs of older variety. /as are the Adem. Sheyn remarkably simiar-part meaning of her name? Balance? And her weighing K an’ all…just a random thought, so thought I’d throw it out there. (linking to the split in the Ruarch, nomadic peoples etc).*which still needs clarifying on timeline.
Wil ” Are you trying to set up a tryst with Sim?” to Sovoy. Sovoy gently refutes this, despite sim being lovely. Sim accepts all ths without qualm. Urgh there are a few little bits that added up to my impression, but I cant remeber where. We also see in the Eolian a gay male couple which is not set up as strange, or out of the ordinary, leading me to think that diverse sexualities are seen as the norm in certain places, Imre, Modeg…probably not Vint! We also pseudo-whitness a male/male rape in Tarbean, as well as a attempted male/female rape with Denna. (the act of rape has nothing to do with the victems sexuality, but purely for instants of sex acts and gender.)
This was an impression I had, that has no impact on the story, except cont’ the comparisons between 4C’s and our modern world (Same as the fridges…..lol I dont often get to compare sexuality with fridges…). Accurate or not Sim prefers the ladies. :)
@111, 107 This seems like a good analysis to me, and would indeed account for C’s 8/9, if he simply not used to Elodin, you know, actually working in a traditional sense.
thesissy@89
Wow, that is unreal. Well done, that is a great thing to do. If I knew another language fluently, I doubt I’d have the patience/ability to translate PR’s work.
It seems feasible to me that Sim is also a young starter like K.
I think Taborlin could easily be another powerful magician/arcanist during recent times or just before K’s time at the uni, just as easily as he could be a composite character.
It’s also a bit exciting to think Taborlin could be Scyphus (Chandrian), since Taborlin is the consistent character in both stories when blue flames appear. Who knows!
I wonder how old Auri is, since she knows about the Ciridae?
Jezydynamite@114:I have a feeling that Auri is quite old. The small references, such as her reaction to Amyr and Ciridae seem to imply this.
shalter@115 – I’m thinking the same thing. It makes me wonder if people (in the current world) are only long lived if they spend most of their time in the Faen realm.
I wonder if there is an entrance to the Faen realm under or in the uni/archives? Lots of guesses needed for this, I suppose.
-25: Vashet born (10 years senior to Kvothe)
~20: Penthe born (couldn’t be much older than 20)
Ive also been consider life spans. Have thought that perhaps it has to do with power, or use of power. Mortals seem to have a lifespan similar to our own, these at most have knacks. The masters, some are ancient, but all are able-this is still within our own bands. The Fae are innately magical and have long life spans. It is implied that Shaper/Knowers etc have longer life spans (unclear). Aelph is one of the most powerful, supposedly created/discovered the Name of all things but is prominant after the CW-implying a long life span. Aelph aside, we know these old folk can die. Haliax is ridiculously powerful and cannot be killed.
This would not be so far from @116 as power seemed to have pooled in Faen after the stealing of the moon.
Im also in the Auri is old camp.
***I just had a random thought about the 4 plated door in the archives***
If there is an entry to the Faen realm in the university/archives, it could be the 4 plated door.
The door could be (hiding?) an entrance to the Faen realm. And the copper in the 4 plates on the door could be a barrier to stop Faen folk from using the door to get into the Uni (or into the ruins of the city that the uni sits on). Kvothe does say it looks like a door that is meant to be closed, not opened.
Some evidence: Felurian did say the Fae fear “copper knives”. And Bast is unable to open the copper lock on Kvothe’s chest, even though he seems to think he should be able to.
***Waystones and travel***
Wouldn’t it be interesting if people “in the know” could use waystones to travel throughout the 4C world (by entering the Fae through one waystone and exiting through another)?
It could be a way for the “Bredon = Ash” shippers to justify how Bredon (or even the Chandrian/Amyr/Sithe) could travel long distances in short periods of time. A long walk Taking months or more in the Faen realm (or other forms of travel, magical or otherwise) may only take one day or less in the mortal world.
I’m guessing this form of travel would be very dangerous, knowing what we know of the Faen realm from Felurian.
One more comment on the timeline. Caluptena goes back 2000 years. Kvothe narrates thus (in the Chapter when Felurian explains the motion of the moon):
(I have a feeling that Caluptena existed at the present site of the University, and that this is what Elodin meant when he said the University was built on the ruins of an older University. But that’s another discussion.)
robocarp@120
He means the histories went back 2000 years. That correlates with the Cealdish bits that Abenthy presumably learned at the University and passed on to Kvothe. Caluptena itself may date from that period, but there’s no corroborating information.
Enjoying these re-reads & all the comments!
Re: Timeline – This is good, as far as it goes, & I’m thankful for it.
The catch is that Kvothe has proven, both in-frame and out-of-frame, that history turned to legends gets very garbled very fast. I assume that the “dates” described, wherever K finds them, are just as garbled and possibly confused/conflated with similar events.
D3 cannot be published soon enough!
Just resurrecting sleeping threads all over the place tonight. Well it’s late and I have been stuck at my computer for hours catching up on threads and interviews but I had to add. Old Cob (I think) says something like, “Three years ago folk wouldn’t think to even lock their doors at night.” (I’m paraphrasing a lot here.)
Then after K gets recognized by the boy that saw him in Imre he fakes a sore knee and makes up a story about an arrow shot. Then he tells Bast, very specifically,
Kote spoke crisply and cleanly. “I was a city-licensed escort from Ralien. ::and that’s on the map!:: Wounded while successfully defending a caravan. Arrow in right knee. Three years ago. Summer. A grateful Cealdish merchant gave me money to start an inn. His name is Deolan. We were traveling from Purvis. Mention it casually. Do you have it?”
“I hear you three times, Reshi.” Bast replied formally.
On this reread this information struck me as important because of the repetition of threes and the way K speaks. So clipped and the entire meter seems off, somehow.
So, this is a stretch. Any chance it was only 3 years ago that he got his pipes by singing and making the whole room weep at the Eolian? And Kote is giving such specifics to place him NOT in Imre for that song? If so, this would support the people that believe that Kvothe has spent much time in the Fae world while the Mortal world turned at a slower pace.
Three years seems like too short a time for so much to have happened, but think of how much happens in his year at the University. I am not saying this is what I believe, but I find it interesting and would like to discuss. It seems more appropriate to put it here than in the 1st reread thread since it’s timeline related.
Interesting, bt it seems a bit of a leap in logic to me. A bit too convolted. I read it that 3 years a go the war started, or at least was well under way. Things became precarious in newarre, and the capital was disturbed enogh that peope leaving the city needed guards and these guards were very likely to be attacked. K offered the most plausable story-something everyone would except and understand the unspoken parts without needing to pry (with the knowledge we dont have! Boo!). Keep your lies simple.
@124
The bit you mention is part of the 3rd person omnicient narration in the first seven chapters, not something anyone specifically says. So it gives us a good idea that the fighting didn’t start until later. In fact, that bit is pretty well laid out.
In fact, looking back the Timeline is in error. I dunno if Jo’s still updating it, though.
Three years prior to the frame, Newarre was reasonably bucolic. Two years ago Bast hooked up with Kvothe. Less than two years ago, the big event alluded to went down. Around a year ago Kvothe rolled into Newarre. The folks of Newarre have been burdened by seasonal taxes: spring, summer, and fall’s coming after the harvest. The roads got particularly bad at the beginning of autumn. Whatever war’s going on, the taxes would have begun at the start of the fighting, if not before; either a replenishing or bolstering of funds to field the armies. So the war is probably also less that a year old.
Anyway, Bast would have to have become his student at some point during the events of WMF for him to have gotten his pipes only three years ago… On the other hand, D3 has to account for about 6 years, so the heart of your theory isn’t entirely impossible. He could have spent a good portion of his time in Faen.
I didn’t read through all the posts, but there’s some controversy in my mind about how old K actually is–it seems like he lost a great deal of time with F in the Fae realms, and we don’t yet know if he goes back so he could be a lot older than the traditional passage of time suggests.
Jikeidan@127:
We address it in the comments. While more time in Faen is certainly within the realm of possibility, Kvothe’s apparent age in the frame and the time passed in the mortal line up fairly comfortably. In any case, such time would have little to no effect on the Timeline as presented.
I know I am super late to the forum, haha, but are we operating under the assumption that their years are the same as ours, given that a month is 72 days? Just curious. Good stuff everyone.
trickNick@129
see comment 33, which is mostly accurate. Years are 359 days.
I doubt anyone is still following this thread, but nevertheless, I must add my voice to the appreciation and admiration of thistlepong for the original work in assembling the timeline. *bows down to the master* Thank you so much!
Thank you for your painstaking and patient work putting this together, Jo! A very useful reference! I will study it.
Jumping into this timeline a bit too late apparently…
I am re-reading for what it feels like the 100th time TNoTW, and looking for specific dates and kind of figuring out the weather I got to this conclusion (I am no genius so I bet that a little of going thru it someone could get to the same conclusion, also, I did this very fast and have no exact references)
It says that when K pawns Rhetoric and Logic before going to the University, is Caitelyn, 38th, also, the weather is described as warm and dry. Because admissions last day where Caitelyn 43rd which is the before last day of the month, after the term (which takes 2 months) is mentioned when he goes to find Devi for the first time that fall is about to start, so the autumn term. Lastly when Denna leaves Imre and latter they meet at Trebon is really cold, and he is at his 3rd term, the winter term.
It says when K is in Tarbean and the 7 days of high mourning are over (when he got beat up by that cop and “Encanis” gave him a talent) that Midwinter is past, that actually was one of the last things to corroborate my theory.
By all of this I drew my conclusion like this:
Equis & Caitelyn – spring
Solace & Lannnis – summer (also, Kvothes first term)
Reaping & Fallow – autumn (also, Kvothes second term)
Dearth & Thaw – winter (also, Kvothes third term, that is interrupted by his trip to Trebon, that is in celebration when he arrives, a celebration that occurs in later autumn early winter, because of the scarecrows they put up, i think Abenthy talks about them in the beginning of the book)
This also makes sense with that when the months are mentioned, Thaw is the 1st one, and Equis the 2nd and so on… and if in midwinter is the 7 days of high mourning, and the new year stars, it coincides with the start of Thaw, the 1st month.
Sorry if its not well explained, English is my second language.
(Also, I found that when K arrives at the University and they put the price of his tuition is Caitelyn 43th, but then later when he is brought on at the thorns for malfeasance with Hemme, the records they start the meeting is that is Caitelyn 4th, which drove me nuts!!!!!!!!!!)
Well. that’s better tracking than I could do! Nicely and thoroughly done!
I am in awe of all the folks who contributed to this page. Not only the Timeline which is huge, but also the seasons and in other threads the monetary units . . . and, so on and so on! You all are awesome! *applauds*