Welcome back, my friends! This week we’re following Venli as she assists and then converses with Raboniel. There are a few surprising revelations, a lot of Spite, a reward, and a breathtaking gift. We do some guessing about the timing, as usual. We’re nearing the end of Part Four, so things are beginning to ramp up to the Avalanche. Come on in and join the fun!
Reminder: We’ll be discussing spoilers for the entirety of the series up until now. If you haven’t read ALL of the published entries of The Stormlight Archive (this includes Edgedancer and Dawnshard as well as the entirety of Rhythm of War), best to wait to join us until you’re done.
In this week’s discussion we also address some things from Mistborn: Secret History in the Epigraph section, so if you haven’t read it, best to give that a pass for now.
Heralds: Vedeledev (Vedel). Edgedancers (Abrasion, Progression). Loving/Healing. Role: Healer.
A: So… after reading and rereading the chapter thoroughly, I’m still not quite sure why Vedel is here. I suppose you could say that the gift of the map, with the indication of surviving listeners, is a step toward healing Venli’s sense of guilt and betrayal, since it will lead to the discovery that she didn’t kill them all? That’s the only thing I can think of, unless Team Dragonsteel had something deep and mysterious regarding Raboniel in mind.
Icon: The Singer, for Venli’s POV.
Epigraph:
The bond is what keeps us alive. You sever that, and we will slowly decompose into ordinary souls—with no valid Connection to the Physical or Spiritual Realms. Capture one of us with your knives, and you won’t be left with a spren in a jar, foolish ones. You’ll be left with a being that eventually fades away into the Beyond.
A: There’s so much lore in this epigraph, especially when combined with what we learned back in Chapter 47 and what we learned in Mistborn: Secret History. (Yes, spoiler alert!) In the earlier chapter, Dalinar formed a Connection with Nale that allowed him to see the Oathpact, which the Stormfather called “A cage, forged of their spirits;” we saw that one line was still strong (Taln) and one was missing altogether (Jezrien). So, yes, apparently the gemstone trap removed Jezrien from the Oathpact completely. Then, if you recall the events of Secret History, Kelsier learned that he couldn’t function in the Physical Realm without a valid Connection, which is presumably true for all Realms. The Oathpact, formed of their spirits, was the Heralds’ Connection to one another in the Spiritual Realm, allowing them to remain joined even when their physical bodies were killed. According to Kelek, then, once the Spirit was yanked free of both Physical and Cognitive Connection, there was nothing anchoring Jezrien, and he faded to the Beyond. Seems logical to me.
P: It does seem logical. And also sad to know that Jezrien is likely not retrievable. So do the Fused (and does Odium) not know that the souls of the Heralds will fade into the Beyond? Do they think to do something with them, or is this the only way to truly kill them?
A: It wouldn’t at all surprise me to find that the Fused/Odium at least suspect this will break the Oathpact, and they’re fine with either trapping or fading away. Mraize, on the other hand, clearly believes that this will be an actual trap and he’ll have a useful “spren in a jar” to curry favor with Thaidakar. Heh.
Chapter Recap
WHO: Venli
WHEN: 1175.4.10.3—The timeline places this six days after Venli rescued Lift, and the same day as the upcoming chapter in which Raboniel uses Navani’s ant-Voidlight to kill her own daughter. It’s not clear whether this is before or after that incident.
WHERE: Urithiru
(Note: For the “when” notations, we are using this wonderful timeline provided by the folks at The 17th Shard.)
RECAP: Venli serves as Raboniel’s Voice, translating reports from Azish-speaking Regals. With that completed, the two return to Raboniel’s desk by the Sibling’s column, which has shifted from bright blue to dark and violet. Raboniel asks Venli about her betrayal of the listeners, revealing various surprising bits of information throughout the conversation. She dismisses Venli with a writ of authority and a sketched map indicating the presence of a group of a few thousand listeners, including children, east of the Shattered Plains.
Chapter Theme—Conflicting Passions
A: This chapter centers on Venli’s increasing mismatch of her official position and her inner feelings about who she is and what she’s done. Honestly, it does make me pity her; she’s done things that she now perceives as truly horrible (which they were) but it’s pretty dangerous to admit how she feels about it.
Buy the Book
Rhythm of War
P: But it is nice to see her admit to her failings. I began to hate her less in Oathbringer but this book’s flashbacks brought that all back to me. However, in this moment, she really became someone that I could look up to and admire because she admitted her faults.
A: She’s really yanked our view of her back and forth, hasn’t she? But you’re right: These few minutes of raw openness make a big difference!
Then she attuned Indifference—a rhythm of Odium. She had to be certain those rhythms continued to punctuate her words, though lately they made her mouth feel coated in oil.
A: This doesn’t need any explanation, really, but I do appreciate how much it bothers her. As Raboniel’s Voice (and Leshwi’s “secret agent”), and an envoyform Regal, she should only be able to attune Odium’s rhythms; revealing her ability to attune the natural rhythms to anyone but Rlain could very well get her in serious trouble. At the same time, the more she progresses toward her Ideals as a Willshaper, the more repulsive Odium’s rhythms become.
P: As it should be. I’m glad that Odium’s rhythms leave a bad taste in her mouth. That’s one of the things that makes me truly like her.
Though Raboniel had a workstation and desk set up at the end of the hallway, she always preferred to take reports out near the stairwell. It was as if Raboniel lived two separate lives here. The commander-general of the singer armies seemed so different from the scholar who cared nothing for the war. The second Raboniel was the truer one, Venli thought.
A: Hmm. Yes, there are definitely ways this is all true. And yet… not. The scholar is probably Raboniel’s preferred role; she does love the discovery and the interaction with Navani, who may be the closest she’s come to a peer in a very long lifetime. At the same time, everything she does as a scholar is subject to the needs of the commander-general. On a personal level, she’ll be deeply grateful for the discovery that will allow her to release her daughter from the endless cycle of meaningless rebirth—but at the same time, she will almost immediately turn to how that discovery can give her people a final victory over the Radiants. She may not care all that much about the war itself, but she does care, more than anything else, about winning that war.
Worth noting, this is a lovely little mirror to Navani’s thoughts recently—where she always wanted to be a scholar, but was constantly dragged away by the needs of the kingdom(s).
P: I definitely like scholar Raboniel better than commander-general Raboniel. But I can definitely agree that they’re not exactly interchangeable because they’re one and the same person.
“Do you regret what you personally did, Last Listener?” she asked to Spite. “Do you hate yourself for your betrayal of your people?”
Timbre pulsed. Venli should have lied.
Instead she said, “Yes, Ancient One.”
“That is well,” Raboniel said.
A: Oof. For a second I wondered just how Raboniel knew… then I remembered that Ulim probably reported everything, so of course she’d know about Venli’s role in the downfall of her people. In any case, I find it shocking that Venli just admitted her regret and self-hatred. She’s spent so much time as “Last Listener”—first taking pride in it, and then faking the pride because she didn’t dare admit that she was questioning her obedience to the Fused, it’s odd to see her telling Raboniel of all people. I’m not sure if it’s out of character, or character growth… but we’ll call it the latter. I think.
P: I definitely think it’s character growth. She’s come a long way from the Venli who kowtowed to Ulim’s demands and did her damnedest to destroy her people.
“I suspect you still crave the chance to become a Fused.”
A: Heh. Really not. Really not—I don’t think Timbre would like that, and I do think Venli would far rather become a Radiant than a Fused by now! Granted that Raboniel is talking about being made immortal, rather than becoming a host, even so, I don’t think Venli is interested.
P: No, she’s definitely moved past that kind of desire. She’s more Radiant than not.
A: I guess we need to give her credit for a fine acting job—maintaining the kind of façade that makes Raboniel think she’s over-ambitious, despite all the changes in her heart.
“But I have found in you a second soul, a regretful soul.
“I am pleased to discover it. Not because I admire one who regrets their service—and you should know Odium does not look favorably upon second-guessing. Nevertheless, I had thought you to be like so many others. Abject in your cravings, ambitious to a fault.”
A: While it doesn’t take more than a moment to realize that she’s not talking about Timbre per se, it is definitely Timbre’s influence she sees! Ironic, though, that this comes so quickly after she made such a point of telling Venli that the humans make a big mistake in “assuming that the singers have always been of one mind.” She was pretty scornful about the stereotyping—and then she does it herself.
P: Well, I think that Raboniel has such disdain for humans in general that she can’t liken herself to them in any way. So, of course, her thoughts are set apart from those of humans.
“I was that femalen,” Venli whispered. “Once.”
Raboniel glanced at her sharply, and Venli realized her mistake. She’d said it to the Lost. One of the old rhythms that Regals weren’t supposed to be able to hear.
A: Ooooopsie. (Clearly the earlier thought about using only Odium’s rhythms, no matter how distasteful, was a reminder so that we’d realize the scope of this error.) It’s odd, though, because both she and Eshonai could hear both sets of rhythms in the past. Granted that Venli didn’t actually have a Regal form with Ulim, so that might not prove much, but Eshonai could still hear the old rhythms after she took stormform in Words of Radiance. Is that due to her early bond with Timbre, even though it was displaced? Or is this a retcon? We’ll take the lofty view and say it was Timbre’s presence, eh?
P: I firmly believe that it’s Timbre’s presence. She keeps Venli connected to who she should have been and not who she thought she wanted to become
A: And presumably the same for Eshonai.
Raboniel narrowed her eyes and hummed to Spite. “And what are you now?”
“Confused,” Venli said, also to Spite. “Ashamed.”
A: Nice switch-up, there. She was that femalen, and now she’s a Radiant… but she sticks with the earlier reference and goes with ambitious vs. confused. Can I admit to a small snicker?
“Then?”
“Then they all died, Ancient One. People I … loved dearly, without realizing the depth of my feelings. My sister. My once-mate. My mother. All just … gone. Because of me.”
Timbre pulsed reassuringly. But Venli didn’t want reassurance or forgiveness at that moment.
A: Three different people, three very different circumstances. Eshonai killed in battle, Jaxlim (presumed) killed by the clash of storms, and Demid killed by becoming a Fused host. Still, all her fault for her part in bringing the Everstorm.
P: It doesn’t fix much but it’s good to know that she regrets the loss of these people that she didn’t realize how dearly she loved until they were gone.
A: It’s kind of sad to realize how long it took her to realize it… but then, until Timbre started influencing her, she was totally sold out to Odium, so I guess it makes sense.
“I understand,” Raboniel said.
A: Oddly enough, she probably kind of does. If she hadn’t gone for Odium’s “gift” and become Fused along with all the others 7,000 years ago, her daughter wouldn’t be sitting in Navani’s chambers drooling. Depending on the timing, that is… If it’s really the same day, her daughter might be dead by now, at her own hand, and she really would be feeling some of the same emotions, the same loss.
P: Even if she hasn’t yet suffered that loss, she’s anticipating it, hoping for it, and that would elicit emotion in her in itself.
“Why do we fight?” she asked to Craving. “Ancient One, if it costs so much, why fight? Why suffer so much to secure a land we will not be able to enjoy, because all those we love will be gone?”
“It is not for us that we fight,” Raboniel said. … “We sing rhythms of Pain so they may know rhythms of Peace.”
A: Oh, now isn’t that interesting. Raboniel names Pain and Peace—which are both natural rhythms, not Odium’s. Is that an intentional dig at Venli’s use of the Lost? A reminder that she, too, remembers the old rhythms? A hope that once the war is over, the singers who remain will be able to leave Odium and return to the natural rhythms of Roshar?
P: I don’t think it’s a dig. Raboniel would make a dig much more obvious. I think she’s being earnest with Venli.
A: There’s no reason for her to be so honest… but then, there’s no reason not to. I’d like to think you’re right, but I’m habitually suspicious of Raboniel.
“You have served me well,” she said. “A little distractedly, perhaps. I ascribe that to your true allegiance being to Leshwi, and your reports to her interfering with your duties to me. … I should have arranged for a regular meeting for you to give her your spy reports. Maybe I could have written them for you, to save time.”
A: Bahahahaha! I almost put this in Buttresses, because I nearly did a spit-take on that last line. But it fits too well with the Conflicting Passions theme. Raboniel doesn’t seem to have figured it out after all, but wow does Venli have mixed allegiances and duties going on!
P: It might just be Venli’s years of subterfuge and lying because of her work with Ulim that allows her to get through this nightmare of service to both Leshwi and Raboniel.
A: Oh, good point. That was definitely good practice—pretending to be a workform, then a nimbleform, hiding her cooperation with Ulim… She’s been at this deception gig her entire adult life.
“Leshwi is among the best we have, for she has managed to not only remember why we fight, but to feel it. I am fond of Leshwi. She makes me think that once we win, there will be some Fused who can rule effectively. Even if she is too softhearted for the brutalities we now must perpetuate.”
A: Now I’m almost positive that this is after the anti-Voidlight scene. She has the means to go start murdering the Radiant spren, or will as soon as her scholars finish making the plate that produces anti-Stormlight, and she might realize that Leshwi would be opposed to that aspect of the plan.
P: You could very well be right. What other brutalities might she be talking about, after all?
A: Almost forgot to say how much I love her respect for Leshwi, though. She’s perfectly willing to be at odds on some things, but she sees clearly enough to know that it’s the honorable ones like Leshwi who will be vital to anything like a civil society later.
“My time in the tower runs short; I will finish unmaking the Sibling, and then will be on to other tasks. So I will now dismiss you. If you survive what comes next, there is a chance you may find some peace of your own, Venli.”
A: What’s with the ominous “if you survive” remark? She knows they’ve nearly zeroed in on the final node, so she can finish off the Sibling. Does she expect that to have some devastating effects on her own people? Or does she expect that there will be conflict between the Fused (and their Regals/singers) over destroying the Radiants and their spren? Or… is she hinting that she knows about Timbre after all, and plans to destroy her as well? Is this all a suggestion to leave as soon as possible to get out of the line of fire?
P: I honestly don’t know why she would make that comment but I can’t imagine she would know about Timbre and allow Venli to walk away.
A: Maybe it’s just a kindly urge to let the Voice who has served her well get out of the tower before everything goes wild.
“I like confusion. Too often we belittle it as a lesser Passion. But confusion leads a scholar to study further and push for secrets. No great discovery was ever made by a femalen or malen who was confident they knew everything.”
A: All of which has been rather clearly demonstrated for her, in recent days, by our captive Queen who refused to accept the generally-accepted answers. (And this, my friends, is why you should never say things like, “Trust the Science” as if it were settled. Science doesn’t have settled answers; it has “what we know now” and a whole lot more questions to be asked.)
P: It’s settled until we learn more. Then it accepts the new truth until even more is learned. Basically, never be confident that you know everything. There’s always something more to learn.
“Regardless, take that gift and be off with you. I have much to do in the coming hours.”
A: Yeah, I think this is a “get out of Dodge now” directive (the coming hours?)… especially since it includes not only the writ of authority that will let Venli use the Oathgates, there’s this little map on the back.
P: Raboniel is definitely telling Venli to go on, take the money and run.
A: Tune cooties…
P: I’m glad that reference wasn’t missed! lol
Upon closer inspection, the page read in the human femalen writing system, it appears the group we assumed were Natan migrants are instead Parshendi. A group of a few thousand, with a large number of children.
Venli read it again.
A: Heh. I’ll just bet she did! Talk about conflicting passions… She was just confessing how awful she felt for having caused all their deaths, and now it turns out that maybe some of them are alive?
P: What a moment for her! To have hope alight in her after all of her self-loathing.
“Did some of your kind leave?” Raboniel asked absently. “Before the coming of the Everstorm?”
“Yes. Rebels who did not want the new forms, along with the children and the elderly. They … escaped into the chasms.”
A: I’m completely baffled by Raboniel in this situation. Is she being uncharacteristically generous to Venli because she’s feeling particularly emotional about the death of her daughter? Does she have a hidden agenda for these people, and hopes to use Venli for her own ends? She’s really trying to play it off like it’s no big deal, but there’s no reason for her to give Venli this map as well as the writ of authority. Is she just… hoping to do one kindly thing along with all the mayhem she’s about to unleash? Is Venli serving as a stand-in for her daughter? I’m so confused.
P: I personally feel that Raboniel genuinely likes Venli and would like for her to find some peace, because Raboniel knows she’ll never have such.
A: That makes sense. We’ve occasionally seen a kinder side of Raboniel, and though she’ll use absolutely anyone if they’re useful, she also knows that her life hasn’t exactly been… enjoyable. The grief of her daughter’s insanity and the anticipation of her own might be enough to just want to give someone else something nicer.
“They… they should have been completely destroyed…”
“Should have. What a hateful phrase. It has caused me more grief than you could know.” She began writing in one of her notebooks. “Perhaps it has treated you with kindness.”
A: We’ll never know, I guess, but… what has created such bitterness? What is it that “should have” happened? By accepting Odium’s offer, they “should have” been able to defeat the humans long ago? She “should have” been able to come up with a way to keep her daughter from losing her sanity? She tried that and it didn’t work… Maybe that’s what “should have” has done to her.
P: “Should have” is nonsense. Just like “if only.”
A: Life lessons, my friend. Life lessons.
Singers/Fused
“The Lady of Wishes hears your report,” Venli said to the current Regal, who stood bowed before them. “And commends you on your Passion for the search—but you are wrong, she says. The Windrunner is alive. You are to redouble your efforts.”
The Regal—wearing a sleek form known as relayform, often worn by scouts—bowed lower.
A: One: What makes Raboniel so certain Kaladin is alive? Is she just operating on the principle of “He’s not dead until I’ve seen the body,” or does she have some other reason? (Clearly this isn’t coming from Venli; she knows he’s alive, and definitely does not want him found.) Apparently those searching are of the opinion that if they haven’t found any trace of him, wounded as he was and after more than two weeks, he’s probably dead somewhere. Come to think of it, without Dabbid he would be.
P: Raboniel knows that Kaladin is made of tougher stuff than what some people seem to think. She’s got to assume he’s getting help from somewhere.
A: Two: Hey, look, it’s another relayform! This is… the third time one has been mentioned, I think? It doesn’t really matter; it’s just fun to have Regals other than stormform running around here. Given that they have a lot of different tasks to perform in the Tower, there should be multiple forms. (Frankly, I’d like to have seen more variety; the only ones I can find are stormform, relayform, nightform, and direform, which seems… limited. I guess they have ordinary singers in workform, etc. to do some of the work, but it still feels like there should be more.)
“Last Listener,” Raboniel mused. “Last no more. Your people were the only group of singers to successfully reject Fused rule and make their own kingdom.”
“Were there… unsuccessful attempts?” Venli dared ask, to Craving.
“Many,” Raboniel said.
A: Wait… what? Somehow, until this chapter, it never occurred to me that there might have been multiple attempted rebellions over the millennia. Now more than ever I want to know just when the listener ancestors walked away. Her wording here does make it sound like they rejected the Fused specifically, not the Unmade, so that argues in favor of it being sometime prior to Aharietiam. (I feel so blind-sided by this, as was apparent a few weeks ago, too.)
It’s interesting that Raboniel makes a point of telling Venli that the singers have rebelled against the Fused many times, though. Why? Just the scholarly insistence on getting the facts straight? Or does she have another purpose?
P: Maybe some part of Raboniel agrees with those listeners who left the singers to go off on their own and forge new nations. Maybe she wishes she could have been a part of that rebellion. On some deep level. Maybe.
A: Back to “if only” and “should have”… but can you imagine the impact of someone like Raboniel supporting that kind of rebellion? History would look different…
A group of a few thousand, with a large number of children.
A: Okay, I’ll confess to serious confusion here. According to WoR Interlude 11, there were about a thousand dissenters gathered before they disappeared into the chasms, though there’s no mention of children at that point. So where did the other couple thousand come from? Eshonai put “her own division” in charge of them, so that would add some, but… is one division enough to make up the numbers? I’m not really bothered about the “large number of children” if they weren’t included in the original count; there were about 20,000 non-warforms in the city at the time, aside from the 17,000 soldiers, so among 20,000 there were probably enough mateforms to have produced a fair number of children during the course of the war. It’s possible that this is just a retcon. It’s possible that others like Eshonai and Venli’s father had already gone east and the dissenters joined them, though that seems a bit of a stretch. But it bugs me, the more I look at the numbers. Hopefully we’ll get answers in the next book!
P: I’m confident that we will!
Humans
“I had hoped to find good maps of the tower,” Raboniel noted to Fury. “But Navani had some burned, and disposed of the others—though she feigns ignorance. This, however, is a report from a human scout who was flying along the eastern rim of the Shattered Plains.”
A: Heh. I’m pleased to see that Navani’s efforts to make life difficult for the invaders, in whatever small ways she could, have paid off. Also—so maybe this is in the wrong section—Rlain was the one who actually “disposed of the others” by kyping them and sneaking them into the infirmary. But we’ll leave it here, because he was doing it to help the humans and undermine the invasion.
P: Thank Honor for Rlain!
A: Indeed. I’m profoundly grateful he considered the value of those maps. If Navani was willing to destroy all that work in one place rather than let the invaders have them, it was clever of him to make sure that the second stash was removed from their grasp as well. Kaladin would never have been able to hide this long without that action.
Spren and Shadesmar
Raboniel’s desk was nestled right up against the shield—which, once a bright blue, had grown dark and violet.
A: The color change is presumably due to the massive amount of Voidlight Raboniel has been pouring into the system, right? The Sibling is weakening, and unable to produce Towerlight anyway, so I’d assume this reflects the corruption of the shield, the Sibling, and the Tower all at once.
P: Definitely. And once the final node is broken, she would be able to finish the corruption and take the tower in truth.
We’ll be leaving further speculation and discussion to you in the comments, and hope to join you there! Next week, Paige and Lyndsey will be back with chapter 93, in which Shallan finally faces all her past.
Alice lives in the Pacific Northwest with her husband and two kids. Due to an over-achieving cucumber plant, she’s been canning a lot of pickles lately. Next weekend, she and her husband will celebrate their 35th wedding anniversary, so she’s leaving the reread in the capable hands of Paige and Lyndsey.
Paige resides in New Mexico, of course. But during baseball season, her heart is in The Bronx. Links to her other writing are available in her profile.
I think Raboniel’s actions in this chapter just show how SICK of the war she is. She is so desperate for peace, thinking that there is no way as long one or the other exists, that she probably does hope that the singers and listeners are their true legacy. The map and writ of authority is her peace offering; there were many groups who tried to fight and were crushed. The listeners were the only group who were able to rebel and survive for a long amount of time. Maybe she thinks that they deserve to live, and if things do go wrong, at least there is someone who can possibly live through this final war.
I love Raboniel as a antagonist, we really needed her, and the Pursuer and Lewshi to show them. they were just the villians in Oathbringer, obstacles for our heroes. now, we do get to see their emotions and stakes in things just as much, through the eyes of Navani and Venli
I’m confused why you think this chapter comes before the next one chronologically. I can’t think of an instance in any of his books where events in a specific timeline happen out of order without being labelled as such.
My guess is that she knows about Venli’s supporters and it is a hint to not try to smuggle them out and set up a new resistance (no matter how passive and separated from the Fused it may be).
Roger @2 – I thought it might come before the next Navani chapter, for the reasons I explained. The thought was actually triggered by looking at the 17S timeline and noting that it had the two events happening the same day, with the big battle starting the following day. Raboniel’s comments about what is coming would make even more sense if this chapter happened while her people were working on the anti-Stormlight process, because she’d know she’s nearly finished. Along with using the anti-Stormlight to kill the Radiant spren, of course she’d use it to drive out any remnants of Stormlight in the Sibling’s defenses and have full access to finish the unmaking. If she’s just hoping for those events in the next week or so, why the urgency to wrap things up here?
For what it’s worth, the beta document’s preliminary timeline had this chapter set the day before Navani’s breakthrough, but it also had that, and Raboniel killing Essu, and the entire battle, all happening on the same day. I haven’t had access to the official Dragonsteel timeline for this book, so it’s all guesswork anyway.
Raboniel hopes that the singers in Fused territory will be ruled by someone like Leshwi and not someone like the Pursuer, but the can’t be sure who will end up in charge and wants an alternative chance that someone can find freedom and peace. The surviving Parshendi are a backup if things go wrong were she is.
The more I read RoW, the more the situation in The Tower reminded me of the Nazi occupation of Western Europe during WWII. The Fused are the Nazis, some of them totally evil, some just going with the flow. There are Collaborators in the Tower (looking at you Lirin) and Venli is definitely an Oskar Schindler-type, someone with blood on their hands, but at some point decides to do what is right and finds the courage to do so.
Venil is wrong about one thing. Raboniel does care for the war. Before Navani produced anti-Voidlight, Raboniel saw total victory as the only means of ending both her and her daughter’s constant coming back (not sure rebirth is the correct term). Had Raboniel completely turned the Sibling and Kaladin, the Sibling, Navani and the others not ended the occupation, I am not sure whether Raboniel would have seen the end of the war before killing herself forever or whether she would have done so immediately. Alice, I disagree with you. I do not think Raboniel wants to win the war for the sake of exterminating the humans on Roshar or subjugate them. Rather, she want to win the war as only then (at least so she thinks) will the Fused finally be allowed to pass on rather than being reattached to new bodies. If there was someway to stop the “rebirths” even if the war was not won, I think she would take that path. Prior to this “rebirth,” I think Rabionel believed that victory was the only path to “freedom”. I may be trying thread an extra thin needle. In my mind there is a difference. Perhaps you disagree. If so, I can see that side of the argument.
I do not see Venli’s telling the truth of how she felt about her prior actions to Rabionel as a sign of character growth. Instead, I think deep down she was scared to lie to Rabionel. When dealing with some people (or in this case, Fused) it is better to tell the truth as if the other person catches you in a lie, the consequences could be worse. I believe Venli thought the consequences would be worse if she lied and Rabionel caught her lying. I also think Venli believed in this instance, that Rabionel would be able to tell that Venli was lying. Not sure why I think Venli believed that. But I do. Perhaps it is because I do not like Venli and will not want to give her any credit, no matter how small.
If Venli at some point progresses to a certain level (4th Ideal, maybe it would take to 5th Ideal), could she no longer say the rhythms of Odium. Would her Radiant powers cancel out her ability to say Odium’s rhythms or any of the Regal powers she receives from Odium. Already at this point, I doubt she could be a Fused. Not sure that she could surrender herself to accept the soul of the Fused. Nor would she want to (as Alice noted).
Alice and Paige. I disagree. I think the conversation between Rabionel and Venli in Chapter 92 occurs before the killing of her daughter and the discovery of anti-Voidlight. During the prior Desolation, Leshwi was opposed to Rabionel’s creation of the bioweapon. I think this is what Rabionel was referring to when Rabionel said Leshwi was too softhearted for the brutalities that Rabionel believes is necessary to win the war.
Paige and Alice. I think Rabionel gave Venli the map because based on Venli’s answers to her prior questions (i.e., that Venli has guilt about the loss of the Listeners), Rabionel knew that if Venli had this map, then Venli would go to the Listeners. This would be a way for Venli to lead Rabionel to the Listeners. I could be wrong.
Alice. Happy early anniversary.
It’s true that scientific matters are never 100% settled, and we should always keep an open mind about things and look for what we don’t know. It’s also true that evidence can pile up to the point where no reasonable person would disagree with a given conclusion. It’s unfortunately also true that in this century, “science is never settled” has become a code phrase for “I am wilfully blind to overwhelming evidence”, especially in the USA.
I wonder if Raboniel has seen the future. It would explain so much, especially this chapter.
I guess ant-Voidlight is made by tiny social insect scholars?
Shouldn’t “Voidlight” just be “somethinglight”?
At Worldcon today, I moderated a tangentially-relevant panel. I ended with a little homily about how being able to admit you’re wrong is the only way to approach actually being right.
Brandon knows a lot of science. I’ll bet he’s aware that species which develop to adulthood faster also tend to have larger numbers of offspring (r-selectors).
“Trust the science” does not mean trust a hypothesis blindly. Science is ever evolving. Trusting science means not rejecting hard evidence in favor of a dramatic headline or social media post.
The Atomic Rockets site has a good quote (unfortunately not attributed) about trusting science.
“I don’t ‘believe’ in Science. I TRUST SCIENCE. Science works, whether I believe in it or not.”
We can also add- “Science works irrespective or us understanding it or not.”
The laws of physics, biology, etc. don’t need our understanding or validation to work. They just do. It is up to us to keep trying to understand them. And yes, there will be several missteps- both inadvertent and deliberate- on the way.
Accepting this fact is not an excuse to blindly subscribe to crackpot theories.
@7 Andrew, they knew where the listeners were, why send someone like Venli to gather them up, when Raboniel is the one who gave her the information in the first place? That doesn’t make sense; they could just contact some heavenly ones and go “hey, we might have some 20,000 non combanants, go pick them up for us.” I also don’t see why Raboniel would gather them up in the first place.
Although Kelek seems to want to live and wants to escape Roshar and the Oathpact it seems to me that some of the other Heralds might want to find real death. They all have a level of madness and regret from the constant torture and rebirth. Many of the Fused are the same but completely disabled or not, they return.
All the above makes me wonder if Ishar’s experiments are connected to this but in the opposite direction, He is trying to give the Spren a 2nd connection. Would that make them safer?
Andrew @7 – Interesting take that I hadn’t really considered. Raboniel certainly wants to end the cycle of whatever it is that causes the rising numbers of insane Fused; she knows that they’ll keep returning over and over, and she wants it to stop. She was certain that if she returned again, she would be insane, and that’s why she asked Navani to use the anti-Voidlight dagger on her. It’s an interesting theory, and it makes sense that if the Fused could just win they wouldn’t have to do the Braize thing any more. Of course, if they’d just lose the same thing might happen, given the state of the Oathpact. Her version of ending the war has to be a Fused victory, though. Partly, she’d never approve of the Fused being ruled by humans, and perhaps partly she doesn’t see any way of staying on Roshar without that level of victory.
All that to say that perhaps her chief end is to stop the Returns, but the only way she can see to do that is still to exterminate or completely subjugate the humans. The rationale might not be quite so bitter and vengeance-oriented, but the result is the same.
Also, thanks!
David_Goldfarb @8, Chitnis @11 – Do make sure your bungee cord is firmly attached before you jump to conclusions.
Carl @10 – “Brandon knows a lot of science…” He also specifically told us, in text, that the listeners have far fewer children than humans:
I’m trying to justify the “large numbers of children” without directly contradicting the author. I’m just… having a little trouble with it.
goddessimho @13 – It does seem that, given the option, some of the Heralds might be interested in going Beyond rather than continue their current existence. I wonder if 3500 years of being committed to surviving for the sake of humanity has made it… difficult, at best, to even consider that possibility. As for Ishar… yikes. What a bizarre concept. He’s probably mad enough that he’d think killing a bunch of spren in experiments would be worth it if he could save a bunch more, but honestly, he’s so wacko I can’t really begin to imagine what good he thinks he’s doing.
Wetlandernw @14
I was also surprised by it, given the same quote in my mind. I’ve rationalized that the listeners, having been driven out of war and into almost extinction, are purposefully having more children to give themselves a chance to survive.
I think the apparent discrepancy between Eshonai’s reflection about the listeners having few children and the “large number of children” in the report given by Raboniel to Venli, it’s a ratio problem.
We can assume that the listeners who flew to the chasms did so taking all the children with them. When Eshonai says in WoR that more or less 1,000 listeners had refused to take the stormform, we know she was talking about adult listeners because children have no forms. They take their first form when they reach adulthood.
So, let’s say there where 2,000 children in Narak. For a total population of 35 thousand or so the listeners were in WoR (I don’t recall the actual number, sorry) two thousand children would feel very few for Eshonai, especially in the near to the extintion situation they were.
But, for a human scout who sees a group of 3,000 people with 2,000 children, those children would like “a large number”.
I don’t know if those are the numbers (surely they’re not) or if that’s what is happening here. We must wait for Stormlight 5 to Brandon to explain us, but I think it can be something like this.
P. S. Sorry for the mistakes I could made. English is not my language.
for the high number of children, I think there is one more thing to consider.
I’m not sure how long since the group of listener escaped before the first everstorm, but it is very possible that they thought they would need to have many children in order to survive as a new isolated group. As such many of them would have taken mateform to reproduce in higher number. As we know that the listerner children grow an mature much more quickly that human children, this may have resulted in looking like a large number of children at this point.
“A hope that once the war is over, the singers who remain will be able to leave Odium and return to the natural rhythms of Roshar?” – is that even a realistic hope though? Does Odium really have any intention of letting any singers remain? I understand why Raboniel might wish for such a thing, but seems like another ‘should have’.
I would be interesting to see if some of the Fused eventually turn against Odium because they also want to stop the rebirths, but decide stopping Odium is the way to do that. They would have to overcome their hatred/disdain of the humans though.
Anyway – great chapter, although I really like both Venli and Raboniel as characters.
Wetlander@14: So you’re advising me not to jump to conclusions…in reaction to things that aren’t present in my actual text, that you are inferring? I can’t help finding that a bit ironic.
Ihvon @16 – That’s a good point, and probably the best explanation I’ve come across. Two thousand children (ages 0-10ish) among 37,000 listeners (it’s close enough) wouldn’t really be very many – but 2000 such children along with only 1000 adults would be a lot.
Kaboom @17 – I have no doubt that they may have tried to shift into mateform more, in order to increase their numbers, but it’s only been 14 (Rosharan) months since the battle of Narak. We don’t know anything about the gestation period for singers/listeners, but that would at the outside give them a few hundred babies.
David @19 – I made no inferences. You (and Chitnis) did, though you carefully didn’t go into details. I’m just pointing out that your inference doesn’t necessarily have anything to do with my thinking. With degrees in chemistry and chemical engineering, a career in engineering, and also a functional brain, I’ve seen the false pretenses in a wide variety of “The Science” claims over the years. I’ve also seen an awful lot of times where if you start looking behind “The Science” you find that it’s really The Money driving those claims. So my point stands. Make sure your bungee cord is firmly attached before you jump to conclusions; otherwise, you just look silly as you go splat.
Re: Science–it seems that we’ve headed off into the weeds and away from discussing the events of the chapter, here. This is a bigger topic than the scope of this particular discussion, so in the interest of keeping the conversation civil and constructive, let’s move on.