Welcome back to A Read of Ice and Fire! Please join me as I read and react, for the very first time, to George R.R. Martin’s epic fantasy series A Song of Ice and Fire.
Today’s entry is Part 28 of A Feast for Crows, in which we cover Chapter 39 (“Cersei”).
Previous entries are located in the Index. The only spoilers in the post itself will be for the actual chapters covered and for the chapters previous to them. As for the comments, please note that the Powers That Be have provided you a lovely spoiler thread here on Tor.com. Any spoileriffic discussion should go there, where I won’t see it. Non-spoiler comments go below, in the comments to the post itself.
And now, the post!
Chapter 39: Cersei
What Happens
Cersei is most displeased at Pycelle’s report that Lord Gyles has died, and reminds Pycelle that she expressly ordered him not to let that happen. Pycelle protests that he did all he could, and Cersei accuses him of conspiring with Margaery Tyrell to kill Gyles. Horrified, Pycelle denies it, and she demands to know why he spends so much time with her, then. Eventually she coerces him into admitting that he has been giving her moon tea. Then she orders him to arrange that all Gyles’s lands and wealth go to Tommen rather than his ward, and kicks him out.
Cersei thinks that women only drink moon tea for one reason, and declares to Taena that this proves Margaery has a lover, a crime punishable by death. Taena points out that Mace Tyrell is unlikely to take it well if Cersei executes his daughter, though, and Cersei decides they need to have proof so substantial that even Mace will not be able to refute it. Taena also points out that Margaery is also constantly attended by her young cousins, and Cersei decides that they are in on it, too. She invites Taena and her husband for dinner, and insists they have music from Margaery’s favorite bard to accompany it.
At dinner, she tells Orton and Taena that she is thinking of Ser Harys to take Gyles’s place as lord treasurer, and tells Orton that he will replace Harys as the King’s Hand, with the implicit condition that it will only happen if he supports her in this matter of Margaery. Then she turns to the singer, who calls himself the Blue Bard, and asks when he started sleeping with Margaery. Stunned, he denies it, and she smashes his lute on his face and calls him a liar, and has him brought to Qyburn for “questioning.” At first the singer sticks to his story, but after extended torture is broken to agreeing with whatever Cersei says, and “confesses” to seeing Margaery have relations with a number of men, including Jalabhar Xho and Osney Kettleblack. Cersei feels ill afterwards, but tells herself she must be strong for Tommen.
She bathes with Taena, and they decide that one of Margaery’s cousins should be “persuaded” to bear witness against the others’ complicity in Margaery’s schemes, as must be the men the singer named as her lovers. She dreams that night that it is she being tortured by the Imp, and wakes shaking. Taena asks why Tyrion frightens her so, and Cersei ends up telling her about Maggy’s prophecy. Taena is sure Maggy was just a bitter old woman telling lies, but Cersei thinks that all her other prophecies came true.
She has breakfast with Tommen, who mentions that Margaery has to fast and purify herself for Maiden’s Day, which gives Cersei an idea. She meets later with Osney Kettleblack, and tells him she wants him to go to the High Septon and “confess” that he slept with Margaery Tyrell and her cousins Megga and Elinor. She promises him that he will only go to the Wall for a short time after. Osney is apprehensive about the idea of lying to a High Septon, and Cersei asks if he is refusing to obey her. Osney insinuates that he would feel better about it if he could honestly say he had fucked a queen. Cersei almost slaps him, but reminds herself of Tommen.
Cersei wrapped her arms about his neck. “I would not want it said I made a liar of you,” she whispered in a husky voice. “Give me an hour, and meet me in my bedchamber.”
“We waited long enough.” He thrust his fingers inside the bodice of her gown and yanked, and the silk parted with a ripping sound so loud that Cersei was afraid that half of the Red Keep must have heard it. “Take off the rest before I tear that too,” he said. “You can keep the crown on. I like you in the crown.”
Commentary
Well, that was all just delightful.
This is one of those times that I wish someone would invent a sarcasm font, because there is currently just no way to adequately express in text form how very, very, very sarcastic that statement was. I’m not sure what a sarcasm font would look like, but ideally it would be able to make nearby program icons wither under the sheer weight of its depthless mockery. Yeah. I like that. I could get so much use out of that…
But oh yeah, we were talking about Cersei. Yaaaaaaaaaaay…
(SO much use, I tell you. Also, “depthless” apparently has two meanings: (a) unfathomably deep and (b) shallow and superficial. ENGLISH, amirite?)
Yeah, so it’s probably pretty clear that I really don’t want to talk about this chapter, but then, I don’t think anyone can really blame me, because this chapter was just straight-up awful. Like, I thought the Brienne thing was bad, but at least that was a more or less honest brawl or duel or whatever, and at least Brienne was getting to continue to be her heroic self. Turns out that watching Cersei essentially sell her soul and destroy whatever vestiges of being a decent human being she ever had within her, in the pursuit of using torture, lies, and trickery to achieve the death of an innocent with an utter lack of regard for the collateral damage along the way is… worse.
Plus that torture scene was just horrific. And Cersei’s dream afterward went beyond “horrific” and ventured into the territory of “just fucking unnecessary.” (And I’m not explicating on why; it’s bad enough that I had to read it in the first place. It’s a shame that my summary as a result doesn’t really convey why it was so awful, but there are some things I just don’t need to reproduce, ever.)
That said, honestly I think it was the actual result of the torture that bothered me more. Coercing people, by whatever means, to ruin their own lives and the lives of others, to force them to help pervert justice to further selfish ends and punish something that isn’t even real… I find that deeply offensive and upsetting in a way that’s probably proof of how I’ll never be a true cynic no matter how hard I try. Not, honestly, that I think I try that hard, but you know what I mean.
“It’s not fair” is derided as something only children say. And as far as I am concerned, this is why the world frequently sucks.
My use of the word “innocent” to refer to Margaery, by the way, is a deliberately relative term. Margaery may not be “innocent” in a broader sense, but certainly it seems that she is innocent of the actual crime she’s being set up for. (Which, it turns out to my total lack of surprise, is indeed a capital crime. If you’re a woman, anyway. *gives patriarchy the finger*)
Well, she’s innocent according to me, anyway. I could be wrong, obviously, but I think she actually isn’t sleeping with anyone, and in fact I tend to believe her claim that she never has slept with anyone. Cersei calls it ridiculous that Margaery’s been married three times and still claims to be a virgin, but I just call it highly ironic. She was married to, in order, a gay man, a psychopath who (thankfully) choked to death on their wedding night, and a child. It would be more surprising (and gross, in the case of Tommen) if she had managed to have sex with any of them.
I do wonder if Margaery was in on her grandmother’s scheme to assassinate Joffrey, because I don’t think it’s ever been said for sure, or if it was I don’t remember it. I assume she was, though. And I don’t consider it a crime if she was, either, because as far as I am concerned that was pure self-defense and I would never in a million years blame her for it. This is perhaps odd in light of what I said about perverting justice above, but to me it makes perfect sense, because “justice” and “the law” are not always the same thing—in the world of ASOIAF even less so than other places, fictional or otherwise. “Justice,” to me, at least when I’m reading a story, is nearly always about what will hurt good people the least and hinder bad people the most, and whether that thing happens to be legal or not is, sadly, often just a detail. And by that scale, assassinating Joffrey was a downright humanitarian act, so.
Anyway, my point is, Margaery could totally be a virgin. And frankly I just don’t think she is stupid enough to make herself that vulnerable to attack, just for the dubious benefit of getting to screw random dudes.
The moon tea detail is the only hitch in that theory, but since we’re using Fantasy Contraception™ here, I don’t know whether Cersei’s assertion that moon tea’s only use is preventing pregnancy is actually true, or whether it is more like the modern-day contraceptive pill, which has multiple uses beyond birth control (among other things, it is also used to regulate irregular, excessively painful or dangerously heavy menstrual cycles). So it’s possible that the moon tea has an innocuous explanation as well. Hell, maybe she just likes the taste.
(It’s odd that Margaery would go through Pycelle to get it, though. I mean, maybe only maesters have access to it so she had no choice in the matter, but she had to know that chances were good that Pycelle wouldn’t be able to keep his mouth shut about it to Cersei, right? The only thing I can think is maybe she wants Cersei to accuse her of infidelity, but I am totally unable to see how this would work to Margaery’s advantage in any way. Maybe I’m missing something. *shrug*)
I don’t suppose there’s any point, by the way, in pointing out how screamingly hypocritical it is of Cersei to accuse ANYONE of infidelity? No? Yeah, didn’t think so. Ugh.
I’m really going to have to hope, at this point, that all Cersei’s downward-spiraling increasingly-tottery-house-of-cards awfulness is inexorably approaching a spectacular fall, because at this point nothing else will satisfy me, emotionally. The only thing that’s really terrible about it is how she’s probably going to take Tommen down with her. She keeps telling herself that she’s doing all these horrible things for her son, and the irony is that she’s digging his grave for him. Hopefully not literally, but given both Maggy’s predictions and the way things tend to go in this story in general, I’m not holding out a lot of hope on that score.
[Cersei:] “Tyrion is the valonqar,” she said. “Do you use that word in Myr? It’s High Valyrian, it means little brother.”
Ah. Well, I was close.
And this explains why she never worried about Jaime… although actually it doesn’t, because didn’t she tell Ned that she was born first? (I swear, it’s so weird how I remember some things and have no memory whatsoever of others, because I distinctly remember Cersei’s line about how Jaime was born clutching her foot in AGOT, and yet have forgotten so much else.)
Well, maybe she thinks a difference of literally seconds doesn’t count. But you know, technically it does, so there’s that. But in any case I’m still not convinced Maggy’s prophecy refers to either Jaime or Tyrion. I still think valonqar has more layers of meaning than just the obvious.
There was sort of a big deal made at the beginning of this chapter about Cersei stealing Gyles’s inheritance from his ward, enough that I wondered whether I was supposed to know who this ward was and if this is significant in any way. If I’ve been told who the ward was, though, I completely can’t remember it. Oh well. If it’s really important for reasons other than “just one more way Cersei is being totally shitty to everyone,” I’m sure it’ll come up again.
And last and definitely least, I’m not sure what happened, but it seems that as of this chapter Martin suddenly fell in violent amounts of love with the word “leal.” I mean, it’s a perfectly cromulent word to use in this context, but I can’t really recall him ever using it in lieu of “loyal” before this, and then all of a sudden it appears in this chapter like six times in a row. Weird.
And on that random note, here’s where we stop! Have a lovely Labor Day weekend if that be on your national agenda, and I’ll see you next Thursday!
I love reading your analyses. Stay strong, Leigh!
Re use of leal – wait until you get to ADWD and look for the many references to “words are wind.” Pretty blustery in that book.
Was really hoping we’d get that second chapter today – one of the very best in all of AFFC and a real game changer. Can’t wait. (Roll over for vague foreshadowing of upcoming content)
The Cersei train wreck continues. *shrugs*. Re the moon tea, pretty decent chance it is for one of Margaery’s many cousins. No doubt she’d take the lead and seek to protect their privacy, thinking herself above suspicion.
Why or why is she trusting Taena with all of this? It’s one thing to gossip and probe and use Taena as an information source – nd yet another to plan a conspiracy against her former (and, likely, current) long time friends in Taena’s presence. Incredibly high level of risk.
No, we don’t know the ward (or at least not well, as far as I can remember).
@1 – great name!
Adultery on the part of a Queen by Marriage as a capital crime isn’t independently mysoginistic; it is literally a plot to enthrone someone with no connection to the legitimate royal line, literally Treason. Flows naturally out of the various awfulnessess of monarchy itself.
(If it’s the same crime when the Queen is the one with the royal blood then yes, that’s a different kind of awful entirely.)
According to a Kindle search, “leal” is used 21 times in the five published novels, including 3 times prior to this chapter (spoken by Melisandre and Tyrion, and in Victarion’s POV).
Yuck. Just another Cersei chapter. We hates her, we does.
So the valonquar thing is very interesting. I tend to like the theory that it will be Jaime (and good recall that Cersei was born first, with Jaime clutching her foot), just because there would be a certain beuaty in Jaime, the one she has relied on for most of her life (until she recently pushed him away) ending her life (and then dying soon after, presumably). But as many have pointed out (not here, but we’ve had long discussions on this topic in the spoiler thread), Maggy used the term “THE valonquar”, not specifically “YOUR valonquar”, so there are a wide array of possible younger brothers out there who cuuld qualify (Jaime, Tyrion, Bran, Rickon, Stannis, Theon, etc…) But I still like the Jaime killing Cersei theory.
Qyburn continues to be creepy. Cersei continue to be horrible. Osney continues to be full of that Kettleblack charm. Westeros really sucks, especially when we’re stuck in Cersei’s head. I can’t wait for next week!
But thanks for another good read, Leigh, despite my grumbling about Cersei.
Yeah, Martin does fall in love with certain words at times. There will be a few examples in ADWD as well of terms suddenly popping up all the time when they’ve never been seen before. (Neeps. Niello.)
And oh, this chapter. Really. Such a mess. The torture scene was awful, Cersei is making my brain hurt (and yeah, it crossed my mind too at this point that Margaery was probably taking the moon tea for any other reason than the one Cersei assumes, just because of the way she assumes it).
For some reason, a bit towards the end of the chapter sticks in my mind. First we get Taena suggesting that maybe one of the cousins wasn’t part of it, and she suggests Alla; a couple pages later, we get Cersei “deciding” that Alla wasn’t part of it, because that will make it more believable – and the way it’s phrased, it seems clear that she’s persuaded herself it was all her idea. Just one more sign of how delusional she’s getting. (This one a bit more subtle than the others, which are… anything but subtle, for the most part.)
And then we end with Cersei… I don’t want to say using her body to get what she wants, because she quite clearly doesn’t want to sleep with Osney. Then when she agrees, she just as clearly doesn’t plan on it being rough, but he has other ideas. And she doesn’t feel like she has any choice but to let him do what he wants, even though any rational person would see that she does, but Cersei isn’t a rational person, and… Brain hurts. Feelings are all over the place. Ick, and gross, and she’s being coerced into it but at the same time she’s submitting to it for the sake of getting someone she hates killed, and I don’t know which of those two I’m more disgusted by at that point.
So I’m definitely getting an Anne of Boylen vibe from this whole thing (maybe because Dormer played her in The Tudors), but it’s it pretty much the same scenario, isn’t it? Even down to the musician, who them spills names. It didn’t end well for Anne.
IMO, Margaery IS sleeping with her “cousins”, though not in front of Tommen, and I didn’t get the sense that Pycelle was telling the truth about giving her moon tea, just giving Cersei something so she would stop, which is very much in line with the remainder of her behavior this chapter.
I also observe that Cersei doesn’t think about Jaime as the valonqar, but I think it makes total sense, as I’ve stated in regards to the controversial funeral/sex/rape scene, neither Jaime nor Cersei views one another as an independent person, but as a part of themselves(though Jaime is overcoming this as we can see). Cersei would no more believe Jaime would kill her than she would believe she would kill herself.
Singers don’t seem to fare well in AGOT either. There’s this guy, Marillion in the Eyrie, and didn’t Tyrion have another made into stew for threatening to blab about Shae?
I can understand why on a technical sense that the adultery of a queen would be treasonous and not necessarily based on misogyny (and that it’s just part of the irratonality of hereditary monarchy and that bloodline matters) but the application is pretty much always that way.
Cersei is just horrible and vile and selfish. Ugh. There is a tiny shred of sympathy I can feel for her but mostly she just disgusts me.
Chapter 39 — Cersei:In which Cersei continues down a path of complete corruption and depravity. She builds her “case” against Margaery through torture, intimidation and sexual favors. I really hope it all falls apart on her but it could go either way storywise.
The dream sequence was fairly unpleasant and not particularly necessary from a writing perspective. We get it, Cersei is not a good person.
I am not sure I buy that valonqar only means “little brother.” Cersei had to ask the Septa on the meaning and that implies she isn’t terribly fluent in High Valyrian. One way or another, there are bound to be some nuances that Cersei is overlooking. Nuance is not Cersei’s strong point.
@9 Huh, that’s interesting. I always assumed that Pycelle was giving Margaery moon tea, but for some other purpose, but Cersei talks right over him before he can specify.
“Moon tea,” he whispered. “Moon tea, for…”
“I know what moon tea is for.”
Maybe Margaery wanted it for some other reason like regulating her period, like Leigh mentions. Maybe it’s for one of her ladies, not Margaery herself. Maybe she’s distributing it to the poor who can’t afford it themselves but also can’t afford to feed any more children. Anything but what Cersei assumes.
If I recall correctly, this was the chapter that officially ended my read of ASOIAF. I believe that I finished AFFC half-heartedly and then just read the plot descriptions for Dance with Dragons. One contributing factor — though certainly not the only one — was that dream sequence you talk about. At this point, I’d been attuned to a particular fascination these books have with suckling (non-human-baby edition), had been noticing it at least since Dany’s dragons in book two, which of course keyed me back over to Robert Arryn, and so on. It got to a point in AFFC where this was happening pretty much every other chapter (so I couldn’t even just be OK with Sam and Gilly doing something that’s honestly perfectly normal for two consenting adults in a sexual relationship to do). And then, BLAM, this.
And to be clear, it’s not JUST the sometimes horrific suckling (how’s that for three words I never thought I’d have to use in succession?) that turned me away. I’ve long made the distinction that while I find the narrative of ASOIAF to be perfectly progressive and thoughtful in most ways, the narrator himself strikes me rather a lot like a pervert (even in the close third, there’s a lot of male gaze editorializing going on in the “third person” part of the “close third person” dynamic, women introduced by the quality of their breasts even when the POV is a straight woman who has no other narrative reason to give a shit, etc.). I struggled with the hyperviolent environment and often ungratifyingly grim narrative. So it wasn’t just this. Ultimately, this scene was just the last time I was willing to ask myself “Wait, am I okay with reading all of this if I have to occasionally put up with something like THIS?”
No. The answer was no.
It’s conflicting because I’m still interested in the series. I can imagine a response to this comment being “well, why are you even here then?” And I’m here because I’m still interested in the series and I’m VERY interested in seeing and hearing what people have to say about the series. That condition simply coexists with a separate condition that renders me unlikely to read the actual books anymore.
@9
Agreed. That has always been my interpretation. Pycelle tells Cersei what he thinks she wants to hear in order to make the torture stop. What’s weird is that she doesn’t seem to realize it, when she is so clearly conscious of manufacturing testimony from every other one of her victims this chapter. She has just lost it.
Regarding the dream sequence, I think it does actually show something. It shows that Cersei still has some remnants of a conscience inside her. Yes, even (most) evil people have that. The dream is a post-stress reaction to her being present during the torture, showing that her subconscious wasn’t comfortable at all with what she was doing. I think it’s good that Martin put that, since most people, even if ambitious and ruthless people, would react the same way.
During World War 2, the Einsatzgruppen of the SS were tasked with rounding up Jews in the Eastern Front and killing them in mass graves the Jews dug themselves. There’s lot of footage about that, filmed by the Einsatzgruppen themselves. When Himmler, head of the SS, went to see how their work was going, he noticed that several fo the Einsatzgruppen fell ill and vomited after they killed the Jews. Even in people who volunteered to kill Jews, there remained some part of a conscience in their subconscious minds, telling them that this was wrong. Himmler, worried about the effects this would’ve on the men of the Einsatzgruppen after the war was over, decided to use ways that were less traumatic to kill Jews. Less traumatic to the murderers, it must be said. So that’s when the Nazis started experimenting with the gases released by cars and Zyklon B. Ways that could lead to the murder of lots of people without making the murderers feel responsible or ill afterwards.
If Cersei had just ordered the torture and not being present during it, I’d agree that the dream sequence would be unnecessary. But since she actually shows that she’s unconfortable already during the torture (“I must endure this for Tommen” and so on) I think that the dream sequence is perfect to show that even Evil Cersei is conflicted about what she’s doing.
“Leal”, that was the other one. Along with “neeps”, “niello”, and “wroth”, which Martin seems to think is a noun.
@2: Re: Why Cersei trusts Taena
I think more or less for the same reason she’s certain that Maegaery is a rival version of herself. She makes snap judgements about someone, then works from there.
I think Cersei is a narcissist, in the classic sense. That is, she is the only character with agency in the story she tells herself. The other humans that she perceives she assigns roles to, and then relates to them according to those roles, regardless of whether or not they fit.
Taena won’t betray Cersei, because Cersei doesn’t suspect her. (Backwards logic works for a narcissist) If she suspects someone, then nothing can satisfy her that they are faithful, because the box she’s put them in is labeled “Traitor”. Similarly, no one in the “henchman” box will be suspected no matter how obvious it would be to an outside observer.
Joffrey is obviously a fiend, but he’s in the box labeled “Beloved Son”, so she must support him to her utmost, then avenge him, despite the fact that he’d have cheerfully flayed her. Tyrion is in the box labeled “Monster Dwarf”, so he must have killed her son. Etc and ad nauesum.
If I want to go on out a limb, then more precisely Cersei doesn’t suspect Taena because she herself wasn’t treacherous (in that manner) when she had that position. Cersei has placed herself in the role of Robert, with Taena as the new Cersei (in an Abuser/Victim sense, not King/Queen). Thus, it doesn’t occur to her that Taena can do anything she herself didn’t do when she played that part.
Re: Jaime as valonquar
Jaime will be hard pressed to wrap his hands around Cersei’s throat.
@15 Well phrased. Also, the torture that she is responsible for in the waking world, Tyrion is responsible for in her dream. All bad stuff is pushed onto Tyrion, so that Cersei can go on thinking she’s not a monster. It’s all other people’s fault, and she’s doing it for her son, and it never happened.
Cersei is such a mishmash of cartoon villain, and absolutely believable, that it makes my head spin.
As Dr. Nick Riviera once said, “What? Inflammable is the same as flammable?!!”
maester aemon was kicking himself before he died about interpreting the “prince who was promised” as male when the valyrian words could go either way. maybe valonqar means “little sister.” plenty of those would like to take cersei out.
@20 “The coroner? I’m so sick of that guy!”
@17 – Well put. I have a close family member with the same narcissistic personality, and all of Cersei’s behavior is uncomfortably familiar to me (though, fortunately, without any of the torture & murder).
Narcissism isn’t necessarily about self-regard (though it’s always a factor); it’s that the narcissist literally cannot comprehend people behaving in a way contrary to the pre-conceived roles they’ve been assigned, and cannot process contradictary information.
and “wroth”, which Martin seems to think is a noun.
Tolkien thought so too: “Come not between the dragon and his wroth.”
@21 Sofrina- But Maggy said “the Valonqar will wrap HIS hands around your throat” (bold added for emphasis). Even if Valonqar is gender-neutral- and I’m not sure it is, I think it may literally mean “little brother” not “little sibling”- Maggy definitely used a male pronoun in her prophecy.
Woo Hoo, nothing left but everyone’s final chapter (of this book, not spoilery, right?).
Moontea: I always figured Margaery was getting it on behalf of one of her cousins. She could order it as the queen and not have the same things said as if one of her cousins was to ask for it. But I could also be totally off base.
I like the idea of a sarcastic font. And once created, be able to use it in all social media areas. Therefore people will learn what it looks like quickly, like Times New Roman. And much confusion on the web will be cleared up.
Any font designers / programmers on this thread? Can you make Leigh’s wish come true?
Gyles’ ward. Think it’s just an example of her being shitty.
@16: Niello is a noun. The jeweler used niello to enhance the designs.
But I don’t remember GRRM’s use of the word and don’t have my eBooks to look it up right now.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Niello
@27 – Word! At least take steps to ensure that the ward has a future, by making him a squire to a noble house and getting him a knighthood if he proves capable, or sponsoring him at the Citadel, or something.
Re sarcastic font – there is a font on my computer called “Flippant.” We could use that by acclaimation.
I’m sure Jaime’s golden hand plus his strong left hand can serve the purpose when the time comes.
There is a sarcastic font movement on the internet. Its basically a reverse italic.
http://thenextweb.com/dd/2011/12/12/finally-sarcasm-has-a-voice-in-print-with-its-own-font/
MDNY, #21 wasn’t me.
I’m inclined to think “valonqar” in the prophecy does refer to a male, but this is one of the most contentious debates in GoT fandom and I don’t think we can resolve it on current evidence, so I’m happy to sit on the sidelines.
I think so too. Explains to me, why she would be so stupid (or rather desperate) to go to Pycelle (probably trying to hide it from the Tyrell Maesters to protect the other girl from her families wrath).
And making friends. *eyesroll*
@22 – Qyburn becomes much more tolerable if you read all his dialogue with Dr. Nick’s voice in your head. Zoidberg works, too. Try it – it makes a huge difference!
@any
Prior to posting, I realized how off-topic this was. I don’t mind the comment being deleted if it’s pulling away from the actual topic too much.
My experience with sarcastic font on the Internet is just that it encourages people to try less hard to actually say things well. By way of a poor analogy: When I’m reading books and an author is using a lot of italics and caps and ellipses, all that ends up happening is that I get frustrated and put the book down because why doesn’t this author just write better, rather than writing poorly with adornment?
Of course, I can’t hold regular Internet people to the same standard as professional writers. That would be ridiculous. That said, I’ve seen some seriously lazy and offensive writing done behind the protective decorative wall of a sarcasm font. Just write better, people.
For instance, I think Leigh has managed perfectly well to convey just exactly how sarcastic she was trying to be. And how did she do it? By writing stuff without unnecessary adornment. Mission accomplished!
Braid_Tug @27: He uses “niello” 5 times: a brooch, inlaid armor, inlaid greaves and gauntlet, cups, and inlaid armor again.
Oh yes. Much and more!
I kind of enjoy it when somebody says something ironically, and people take it literally. I think it’s a mark of great satire when it’s mistaken for reality – that happens to The Onion all the time, and it’s always hilarious.
I once wrote a comment over at Football Outsiders complaining about how they devoted almost 25% of their coverage to one of four playoff games that weekend, and that this was a clear sign of their East-Coast bias. Hilarity ensued – the best comments were the ones that stayed “in character” while defending or deriding the charge.
At least you longer need worry about being forced to sympathize with her, eh?
Ugh to Cersei considering Taena “thrice the man Orton is.” She appreciates the woman’s intelligence and assertiveness…but ruins it by showing she thinks those are “male” traits.
Yeah, Margaery might be lucky if she’s a virgin now. One of Robin Hobb’s magnificent books recently showed me what can happen when a very gay man is forced to marry and make an heir — very quick, rough, drunken, and blessedly-infrequent rape, followed immediately by returning to his secret boyfriend’s bed. Granted, that particular man was a jerkass who violently abused his boyfriend as well, and Renly was hopefully different.
UNspoiled insights:
~”Just tell [the Blue Bard] what you want him to say!” They might have saved their time and his body by doing so, though Cersei probably to make sure he was too scared of furthur torture to back out of the lie later.
~”Cersei thinks she can take down the kingdom’s second-most-powerful woman, but can’t stop a man from forcing her to have sex?” Apparently.
~”There should be a bumper sticker: Cersei Lannister is coming, GTFO.”
The plot to assassinate Joffrey popped up here, attributed to Olenna. Correct me if I’m remembering incorrectly, but I had the impression that Littlefinger was the head of that plot, with the awesome Queen of Thorns being the hand that delivered the strike, and with possible foreknowledge and consent of the now twice-dowagered Margaery.
@25, Unless Maggy is working from the same poor translations Cersei was working from, and the only thing she saw in her vision was hands.
@13. I see where you’re coming from, and I’m fairly close as well. I can put up with a lot of that stuff, so long as there are characters I continue to like and reasonably expect aren’t just there to make me feel bad about their death.
It’s conflicting because it’s well written, great depth of characterization and enough mystery in the plot to want a resolution. But to call back to Leigh’s reference last week to the eight words ‘I don’t care what happens to these people’, I’m probably closer to the stage of ‘I don’t like any of these people’… or perhaps I don’t like who these people are becoming or the decisions they are making if I want to be more political about it.
After A Storm of Swords, I think I had heard this book would be called A Dance with Dragons, and the title subsequently changed to be A Feast for Crows. At the time, I had been concerned because I feared all the remaining characters I enjoyed would or could be killed off, so I read this book mostly with dread and hope for the characters I liked. At a certain stage however, I realized that the vast majority of the time spent in this book is spent with characters I don’t like or watching characters I don’t like doing horrific things to those I did have some level of interest in.
I think AFFC deserves its reputation for where people lose interest in the series, and I understand the desire to intersperse A Dance with Dragons to layer in more likeable characters into the story. The ongoing challenge, for me, is that I think, as with you, at this point I decided I wasn’t really interested in following those characters I didn’t like, and would read primarily for plot and mystery resolution… which of necessity means disengaging yourself from the characters and therefore the novel if you want to pull back from the horror aspects. It makes the read much less absorbing than the first three books.
I think the difficulty I foresee in this book and this series is what the story wants to say. Is it that people can wallow in evil and provided they have some self serving justification for what they do they are better/worse than those who see their acts for what they are? Is it that good people can’t hold to any noble principle and if they draw any line in the sand they’ll die? I don’t have any interest in reading towards that end thesis, and I’m concerned there may not be a better thesis on the horizon. I keep looking for something about forgiveness or mercy but I haven’t seen it yet, nor (for myself) anything that looks as though it’s leading towards that arc. I understand if the series seeks to invert tropes, or be nihilistic, I’m just not sure I enjoy reading about it, which is why I’m conflicted about continuing the series.
It’s difficult in my own mind because I enjoyed the first three books so much, (and I generally enjoy the Dunk & Egg adventures) I feel I should continue, but did not get much enjoyment out of AFFC.
@2: The next chapter is definitely a game changer, but the one after is one of my favorites… not for anything that happens in it, but for the subtle, psychologically complex internal monologue. And then the one after that one, which is again eventful but shocking and sad and tragic. (general spoiler about the nature of chapter 43)
Ugh, a part of the text I whited out appeared in regular color after I posted. There’s no edit button here, I don’t know how to fix it.
Annara – need to register with the site; then you can edit yourself. Otherwise, flag your post and ask for help from a mod.
The issue of who gets Rosby should have been taken with more consideration by Cersei, but then again she was also convinced that Taena “wanted her” in this chapter. We know nothing of this ward except that the Stokeworths wanted Rosby themselves, due to some dubious claim, but that Gyles Rosby obviously had other plans for whom his titles passed to. Well the Stokeworths are now headed by Bronn, through his wife, with the support of the garrison.
In fact if I recall correctly Falyse tried to seek shelter at Rosby but this ward denied her shelter. He wouldn’t be able to do that if he didn’t possess some authority under Gyles. So, while Cersei thinks of the castle and titles as an afterthought it would appear that she made herself another enemy amongst those vassals directly sworn to the Crown. Whats to stop the Rosby garrison/administration from recognising this ward as the rightful heir?
@44 There’s no option for flagging, either. That’s probably also something that comes with being a registered user.
Fortunately, someone fixed my post pretty quickly.
Thanks for using ‘cromulent’ correctly in a sentence. It really embiggened my day.
@@@@@#8- Margeary’s vibe is a weird amalgamation of Anne Boleyn and Catherine of Aragon. Cersei’s plot against Margeary is the Anne part but thnking that she could not possibly be virgin after being previously married is Catherine. The justification of Henry VIII’s wanting an annulment their marriage was the allegation that Catherine had consummated her marriage to his brother Arthur before he died. She always denied that they had (they were teenagers at the time).
Cersei keeps insisting that she is Queen. I think that she is Queen Regent (by her own proclamation). This is not the same thing as Queen.
Her assertion of being Queen seem to be another undermining of Tommen.
@49 Stevenhalter- Absolutely. She is technically Queen Regent, but she wants total power. Cersei is so narcissistic she cares nothing for what her son wants if it impinges on her own agenda (e.g. his love for Margaery, while Cersei fears her due to Maggy’s prophecy). She allowed Joff to do as he pleased, but Tommen is “weaker”, and she chastises him for it, then makes him whip his own whipping boy if he tries to show any backbone.
And that’s why I think Tommen will turn out to be the valonqar.
Even if Valonqar is gender-neutral- and I’m not sure it is, I think it may literally mean “little brother” not “little sibling”- Maggy definitely used a male pronoun in her prophecy.
Valyrian/Maggy’s native tongue could have grammatical gender that is distinct from biological gender. Valonquar could be masculine (grammatical gender) but refer to both little sister and little brother.
I’m pasting this massive coment here from Westeros.org because it is an ingenius theory, (and the only good one I’ve seen for the situation), though Pyrrus said something vaguely similar above. I quote:
{Spoiler omited}, but personally I lean towards the “moon tea” story being a complete fabrication. There’s really no logical reason whatsoever for Margaery to go to Pycelle[/i] for moon tea (for the reasons others have already pointed out), even if it was on behalf of one of her retinue rather than for herself—she has to know the danger if even a hint of her being “unfaithful” to Tommen should get out. Even Ned[/i] figured out relatively quickly that Pycelle was a Lannister toady, and I sincerely doubt Marg hasn’t figured out the same. Tyrion sent Pycelle to the black cells, but Tywin later released and reinstated him—as both Tywin and Cersei clearly hate(d) Tyrion, this isn’t going to look to House Tyrell like “Pycelle has had a falling-out with House Lannister”, but rather “Pycelle hates Tyrion alone, but is clearly still siding with the other Lannisters”. If Pycelle was spending time with Margaery, it’s possible he was at least considering[/i] throwing over House Lannister once Tywin was dead and Cersei was in charge {spoiler omited}. It’s made abundantly clear that Pycelle thought poorly of Cersei’s rulership decisions once she was ruling on her own: he speaks out against Cersei’s decision to re-arm the Faith, against the choice of captains for the new dromonds, against Qyburn’s presence on the Small Council, etc. I doubt Pycelle enjoyed being castigated by Cersei because of what happened to Tywin’s body, and she’s called him a “witless cretin” to his face, for goodness’s sake. {Spoiler omited}. Spending time with Cersei’s political enemy could have been Pycelle hedging his bets, perhaps even testing the waters for some anti-Cersei plots, and when “caught”, Pycelle chose the clearest way to throw Marg under the bus so that she’d have no credibility should she try to implicate him in any anti-Cersei plot she might have had going on (via poisoning, perhaps? Pycelle is certainly well-equipped there). That said, it’s worth pointing out that it’s not necessarily true that Pycelle even was[/i] spending time with Margaery in the first place. The person who tells Cersei this is Taena[/i], who’s not exactly a reputable source (since she’s clearly manipulating Cersei). Qyburn, Cersei’s Master of Whispers, never once mentions Pycelle visiting Margaery (and since Pycelle is Qyburn’s clear enemy, that particular oversight seems kind of noteworthy, had such meetings actually been taking place). {Spoiler omited}. Pycelle’s “reluctance” to speak about the moon tea isn’t necessarily a symptom of truthfulness—I think this whole conversation can very easily be read as Pycelle simply having a great deal of difficulty figuring out what Cersei wanted him to say in the first place[/i], and when he did finally figure it out, wanting subtle reassurances that saying what Cersei wanted him to say wouldn’t come back to bite him. I think the context of Pycelle’s “admissions” is pretty key, because this entire scene (especially the beginning) had to have really thrown Pycelle for a loop: Cersei starts out berating him for something he logically couldn’t have changed (the death of Gyles Rosby, an old and extremely sick man whom everyone had long[/b] assumed was a dead man walking), and then segueways into castigating him for actions—letting Jon Arryn die, counseling Aerys to open the gates of King’s Landing to Tywin—that Pycelle clearly did on behalf of House Lannister[/i]. She also starts screaming about how Pycelle let her “own beloved husband” Robert die, and how Pycelle “would” have let Ned die if given a chance . . . from Pycelle’s perspective, this entire diatribe had to come across like the rantings of a crazy person. It’s only after this litany of bizarre complaints and accusations that Cersei “makes her charge” about Pycelle spending time with Margaery. This is what Pycelle says in response: Quote
[Cersei’s] lips tightened. “You have been much in Lady Margaery’s company of late.” “Yes. Yes, I… Queen Margaery has been most distraught about Ser Loras. I provide Her Grace with sleeping draughts and… other sorts of potions.”
At first I assumed Pycelle mentioned “other sorts of potions” as an oblique reference to the moon tea . . . but it’s kind of bizarre that Pycelle would reference the moon tea at all, even subtly, but then have to be dragged kicking and screaming into actually stating what “potions” he later means. If he isn’t intending on specifying, why mention “other potions” in the first place? And it’s very, very interesting that Pycelle’s story here is that he was providing Margaery with “sleeping draughts” when, in Cersei’s own previous chapter, Cersei herself[/b] asked for Pycelle for that exact same thing[/i], and his immediate response was to suggest she drink some wine before bed! What are the chances that Cersei has to bully Pycelle into giving her a sleeping draught, but that GRRM would have Pycelle tell her in the very next Cersei POV chapter that Marg coincidentally needed Pycelle to give her[/i] “sleeping draughts” as well? I mean, it’s technically possible that Marg went to Pycelle for sleeping draughts (even though she has her own maester, and even though Pycelle’s prescription for that exact same ailment was “wine” for Cersei, so why not just advise wine for Margaery?) and that Pycelle was a dumbass who wanted to add in an oblique reference to the moon tea while never expecting to actually have to speak plainly about it . . . but that strikes me as pretty bizarre, all things considered. I think it’s possible that what’s actually happening here is this: Pycelle is scrambling to think up a story that will go along with what Cersei seems to want him to say[/b], but has no idea at this point what Cersei actually wants him to say[/i], and is afraid to flat-out deny the “spending time with Margaery” accusation because 1) Cersei sounds like she’s off her meds here, and arguing with a powerful crazy person isn’t a good idea (something Pycelle, who served the Mad King, would know better than most), and 2) Taena Merryweather is standing right there[/i], and it doesn’t take a genius to figure out that Taena, a lady of the Reach and a once-companion of Margaery’s, is playing a role in Cersei’s accusations here (and obviously Cersei’s going to believe her BFF Taena over Pycelle). It’s pretty clear by this point that this isn’t a fact-finding interview, it’s a fact-creating[/i] interview, but Pycelle is having an awful lot of trouble sussing out what Cersei wants him to tell her (clearly it isn’t the truth[/i], given the overall context, but Cersei takes so long getting to the point that Pycelle is kind of lost for most of the diatribe). So Pycelle “admits” that he’s been spending time with Margaery because it sounds like Cersei very much expects him to agree to that “charge”, but the only accompanying story he can think of on the spur of the moment (that makes him look innocent of any wrongdoing) is just a rehash of his last meeting with Cersei herself: that’s why his story has Marg wanting sleeping draughts, just like Cersei did. If that’s true, the “other sorts of potions” wasn’t a reference to the moon tea at all—it was Pycelle’s version of “et cetera, et cetera”, basically him trying to invent a plausible story on the fly but being unable to think of some good accompanying details. Cersei accuses Pycelle of letting Joffrey die of poison, then of poisoning Gyles on Marg’s behalf, and Pycelle’s reaction is pretty interesting: Quote
“No doubt. Tell me, was it our little queen who commanded you to kill Lord Gyles?” “K-kill?” Grand Maester Pycelle’s eyes grew as big as boiled eggs. “Your Grace cannot believe… it was his cough, by all the gods, I… Her Grace would not… she bore Lord Gyles no ill will, why would Queen Margaery want him…[/b]”
Pycelle’s response to an accusation of him poisoning an old man on behalf of a queen is “Margaery would never want Lord Gyles dead”, not “I would never kill Gyles on behalf of Queen Margaery.” The context is interesting, because it definitely seems to reference the poisoning of Jon Arryn, which Pycelle believes was done by Cersei, and which Cersei probably thinks was done by Pycelle. In either case, Cersei’s seemingly referencing something that reads as “Pycelle helping take out the person threatening House Lannister” in both her and Pycelle’s minds. And after that[/i], Cersei segueways into this: Quote
You began to dance attendance on Maid[/b] Margaery before Ser Loras went to Dragonstone, so spare me further fables about how you want only to console our good-daughter in her grief. What brings you to the Maidenvault[/b] so often? Not Margaery’s vapid conversation, surely? Are you courting[/b] that pox-faced septa of hers? Diddling[/b] little Lady Bulwer? Do you play the spy for her, informing on me to serve her plots[/b]?”
It’s only after this that Pycelle seems to suss out exactly what Cersei really wants him to say, which makes sense, because Cersei makes sure to give him all of the necessary trigger words—“Maid” Margaery (not “Lady” or “Queen”, but “Maid”), located specifically in the “Maiden[/b]vault” (where, hey, at least one Targ princess was infamously screwing around on a husband she’d never actually had sex with), questions about Pycelle “courting” a septa or “diddling” an 8-year-old (i.e., having sex with two women who[/i] aren’t supposed to be having sex[/i]), informing[/b] on one queen to serve the plots of another queen. Pycelle’s immediate response to this kind of “leading” is this: Quote
“I… I obey.[/b] A maester takes an oath of service…” “A grand maester swears to serve the realm.” “Your Grace, she… she is the queen[/b]…” “I am the queen.” “I meant… she is the king’s wife, and…” “I know who she is. What I want to know is why she has need of you. Is my good-daughter unwell?” “Unwell?” The old man plucked at the thing he called a beard[/b], that patched growth of thin white hair sprouting from the loose pink wattles under his chin. “N-not unwell, Your Grace, not as such. My oaths forbid me to divulge[/b]…”
Pycelle appears to have finally picked up on what Cersei wants him to say (“I . . . I obey”, and we know that Pycelle plucks at his beard when he believes he knows the answer to a particular problem), but before he’ll come out and say what Cersei wants him to say, he wants to make sure he’s[/i] in the clear—I’m pretty sure it’s treason to help the Queen “cover up evidence” of her own treason, and Pycelle doesn’t want to be thrown to the wolves. This is why he emphasizes his oaths, and how serving Queen Margaery can be read as him keeping those oaths—he wants to make sure he can hide behind the oaths of his position to shield himself from a treason charge. It’s only after Cersei threatens him with the black cells, and specifically after Pycelle points out to Cersei the loyal service he’s done for her in the past (so that, in his mind, Cersei has[/i] to recognize how much she owes him), that Pycelle is willing to “admit” to the moon tea: Quote
Pycelle collapsed to his knees. “I beg you… I was your lord father’s man, and a friend to you in the matter of Lord Arryn. I could not survive the dungeons, not again…[/b]” “Why does Margaery send for you?” “She desires… she… she…” “Say it!” He cringed. “Moon tea,[/b]” he whispered. “Moon tea, for…”
The “dungeons” reference is interesting because readers know why Pycelle ended up there the first time around: he was informing on Tyrion to Cersei herself. It’s not necessarily clear that he’s genuinely afraid of being sent to the dungeons here—he might actually be reading Cersei’s “dungeons” threat as a reference to Pycelle’s loyalty to Cersei back in ACOK, as an assurance that she remembers what he’s done to benefit her in the past and therefore that he can say what she wants him to say without fear of being charged with treason for “helping” Marg do what Cersei wants Pycelle to tell her Marg did. (Whether Cersei actually means it that way is another issue entirely, of course.) But even if he thinks it’s a genuine threat, the point isn’t that Pycelle is finally telling the truth, the point is that he’s decided it’s better for him to lie and make enemies of House Tyrell rather than tell the truth (there was no moon tea) and get thrown back into the Black Cells.
[color=rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: helvetica, arial, sans-serif; line-height: 22.399999618530273px; background-color: rgb(240, 240, 240)”>But essentially, I think Pycelle’s “reluctance” in telling Cersei about the moon tea reads less as “he doesn’t want to speak the horrible truth” and more as “he takes a while to figure out what horrible lie Cersei wants him to say in the first place”. At the beginning of her rant, Cersei was making accusations that made no sense at all to someone with Pycelle’s knowledge base, so Pycelle had to have been terribly confused and thrown off-balance. Cersei took a while to “get to the point”, which is why Pycelle didn’t mention the moon tea story earlier—he didn’t immediately realize that was what Cersei wanted him to say. And though Cersei doesn’t flat-out ask about Moon Tea, she makes sure to pepper her accusations with enough “clues” to allow Pycelle to pick up on the fact that she’s planning on taking Marg down for sexual misconduct.
Wow Moniker.
That’s a lot of analysis for one conversation. Good points on the nature of Pycelle.
It occurs to me that the Septa could have been translating valonqar as “little brother” quite correctly but intended a completely different meaning than what Cersei understood.
Monks are often referred to as brother and so the High Valyrian meaning could have been that sort of brother giving us basically little monk. With all of Cersei’s unwise poking at the High Septon’s, this could be a either a specific warning against a monk strangling her or a general prophecy that the religious orders are going to strangle her rule in a figurative (or literal) fashion.
Reinstating the Faith Militant may have been a very dangerous act if this interpretation is anywhere near. It would be nice if someone who actually knows High Valyrian would give us a definition (as opposed to Cersei).
@53 Moniker – I agree. Pycelle very clearly is doing the “tell the delusional and very dangerous person what she wants to hear.” I like the notion that there isn’t even any moon tea.
So all of this is Cersei clutching at straws, because she wants to kill Margaery. And, being Cersei, once she grabs the straw, she convinces herself that it is pure gold.
It’s a rather horrible chapter, but also a rather amazing look at what it is like to be paranoid and delusion and in the throes of a major mental breakdown – from the inside.
@9 Aeryl
Unless you have a very wide definition of the term rape, in the books, it was not even close at the funeral.
The show was a whole different story though, so you might be thinking of that. You put a whole bunch of words in brackets there, maybe to shield yourself from this particular debate, but rape is not a casual term to just throw into a list.
@57, I completely disagree that it’s definitively not rape in the books, we don’t know what Cersei actually thinks of the situation because it’s all from Jaime’s POV, he chooses to interpret her actions as willful consent, but knowing how she responded to years of marital rape at the hands of Robert, you can’t make the argument that Jaime’s interpretation is 100% correct. She certainly whispered sweet nothings in Robert’s ears in an attempt to get him to finish quickly.
And again, it completely makes sense that Cersei wouldn’t look back on it as rape, or even consider it rape, because there is no room for autonomy in a relationship where you view your partner as half a person.
However, I can also acccept that not everyone has the same interpretation that I do, which is why I listed other possible ways that scene could be read there.
But that entire scene is symptomatic of the entire toxicity of their relationship.
@58 Aeryl- I’m with DougL on this one, Jaime never raped Cersei in the books. Cersei objected with “not here”, but she quickly changed her response, and she was never objecting to sex with Jaime, just the timing and location (and even that, only feebly). The show totally changed the entire atmosphere of that encounter from how it was portrayed in the books, and afterward the director claimed that it was definitively not rape in the show either (when it pretty clearly was). Don’t let the show’s depiction color your thoughts on the book, because I don’t see any way that the book’s depiction was of anything but mutual consent.
I do agree that the scene was just another example of how toxic their relationship is (was?), but hopefully Jaime has grown as a person, perhaps helped by Cersei pushing him away, while Cersei appears to be in a downward spiral (partially fueled by her new autonomy, without her husband or her father to try to reign her in).
@59, Again, where did I state that my interpretation was the only acceptable one?
And I haven’t let the show the color my perception, my response to the show controversy, was “Duh, it was never consensual in the first place” go look it up.
she was never objecting to sex with Jaime, just the timing and location
Not consenting to the timing and location of sex, is still not consenting. I mean I seriously have to explain that to THIS commentariat?
@60: No you don’t.
And I think we need to stop talking about the show on this thread. Take it to the spoiler thread.
Or let the matter drop now. Because, yes, there are several interpretations. All are valid.
@61, Agreed and thank you
I’ve always sort of wondered if technically Margeary didn’t ask for moon tea. Maybe somebody claimed to do it on her behalf to make her look bad. After all, Pycelle doesn’t go into much detail with the claim.
Last week, we were treated to the literary equivalent of a Surprise! Involuntary Ice Bucket Challenge. For Leigh and those who follow both of her columns, the serendipitous chapter schedules likely intensified the icy shock. First was the prologue Ravens (from WOT) which conveyed the very essence of wholesome innocence. And then …BAM!…the cauldron of reeking , freezing sewage that was a Cersei POV chapter suddenly cascaded over our brains. As a study in contrasts, it was unparalleled and I applaud Leigh for soldiering on. That dream sequence = that which has been read cannot be unread. I am looking forward to the next post.
Several chapters from now….you are going to love. I can’t wait!
I also wondered about moon tea – is Margaery somehow in some secret relationship or did Cersei tell Pycelle what he’s recquired to say.