Welcome to the Malazan Re-read of the Fallen! Every post will start off with a summary of events, followed by reaction and commentary by your hosts Bill and Amanda (with Amanda, new to the series, going first), and finally comments from Tor.com readers. In this article, we’ll cover Chapters 22 and 23 of Deadhouse Gates by Steven Erikson (DG).
A fair warning before we get started: We’ll be discussing both novel and whole-series themes, narrative arcs that run across the entire series, and foreshadowing, so while the summary of events may be free of spoilers, the commentary and reader comments most definitely will not be. To put it another way: Major Spoilers.
Another fair warning! Grab a cup of tea before you start reading—these posts are not the shortest!
Chapter Twenty-Two
SCENE 1
Kalam pulls himself out of the water into Malaz City. He takes the attack to the Hands waiting for him and kills a bunch of them.
SCENE 2
Fiddler’s group moves through the Azath. Rellock realizes they are walking on a map. Fiddler realizes the floor, which stretches out for leagues in all directions, is a map/way to all the worlds, to every House. Pust disappears. They find a hole where he went and as they pass on, thinking Pust had fallen to his death, the floor reforms.
SCENE 3
Mappo walks on feeling guilt over his cowardice, his selfishness, his breaking of his vows by not giving Icarium over to the Azath.
SCENE 4
Apsalar sees Mappo and Icarium disappear into another hole. The rest rope themselves together. They see three dragons fly by then dive into the tiles and disappear. They realize you go through when you get to where you’re going, even, as Fiddler thinks, “you don’t exactly plan on it.” They realize the others aren’t dead. The appearance of the dragons, their indifference, and the scale of the Azath leads Fiddler to muse on how small they were, and how the world goes on without them.
SCENE 4
Aren prepares for Dom’s siege. Tension is in the air as the soldiers are angry at Pormqual for not letting them out to try and save Coltaine. Tavore’s fleet is less than a week away. Blistig tells Duiker Mallick Rel has convinced Pormqual to ride out and attack Dom and also that Nethpara is blaming Coltaine for the deaths of so many refugees. Blistig says his guard has been ordered to be rear guard and the Red Blades have been arrested. Duiker and Blistig agree it makes more sense to wait for Tavore and let Dom batter himself against Aren. Pormqual commands Duiker to join them to see how battle is done and then he and Nil and Nether will be arrested for treason. Nethpara starts to mock Duiker and Duiker kills him. Keneb arrives and when he hears Duiker refer to Mallick Rel as “Jhistal,” he recalls what Kalam had said to him and steps back to find Blistig. He runs.
SCENE 5
Dom’s army appears to flee before Pormqual’s. Then, Aren’s army rides into an ambush; they are encircled by vast numbers. Rel says it is Duiker’s treachery and that he smells sorcery on Duiker, whom he accuses of being in communication with Dom. Dom approaches under parley flag and Rel goes to meet them. Duiker tries to convince Pormqual to punch through and withdraw to the city to no avail. Rel returns and says Dom says the army must lay down arms and group in the basin, then they’ll be treated as prisoners of war, while Rel and Pormqual will be hostages. Duiker, seeing what is coming, lets his horse go as “the least I can do for her.” Rel convinces Pormqual to accede and Pormqual orders his commanders to do so. The captains salute and go to give the order.
SCENE 6
The army disarms and groups. Dom and Reloe arrive. Rel says he has delivered the city to Dom. Duiker laughs and says not true; Blistig and his command stayed behind and probably freed the Red Blades as well. They are few but enough to hold the walls until Tavore shows up. Dom says Duiker will die with the other soldiers, that he will make Tavore too furious to think. Dom wants to kill Squint (he doesn’t know the name) special but he’s disappeared. He has Pormqual killed, rather than give him the honor of dying with his soldiers.
SCENE 7
Dom spends a day and a half crucifying all the soldiers (10,000) on the cedars along Aren Way. Duiker was last. As he dies, a “ghostly, tusked face rose before his mind’s eye . . . The gravest compassion filled that creature’s unhuman eyes.” The face disappears as “awareness ceased.”
Amanda’s Reaction to Chapter Twenty-Two
I think the poem at the start of Chapter Twenty-Two is a good example of actual events becoming legend once a poet gets their hands on them: “I saw the sun’s bolt arc an unerring path to the man’s forehead.” Fitting tribute for the great man, though, and something about the sun always makes me think of rebirth thanks to the dawn every morning. I do hope we see a rebirth of Coltaine.
Insects really have been an over-riding theme in DG, and every mention just makes me notice the next all the more. We’ve had flies, and bloodflies, and moths, and butterflies. I think they all show a particular mood for the next passage to come—here we have flies again at the dock.
Hmm, Kalam’s rather calamitous arrival in Malaz City sort of reminds me of something like Die Hard—the hero reaching the endgame with little in the way of weapons, mostly unprepared, and yet still able to dish out punishment. I can see some sort of MASSIVE fight scene going down shortly, thanks entirely to Kalam’s lack of a knife. Commentary points to the fact that Kalam himself is the weapon.
Ooh, how about this? “A moment later he closed his eyes, began concentrating. The bleeding in his side slowed to a thin trickle, then ceased.” Super healing powers, Batman! What gives Kalam this ability? He isn’t a mage, is he? I don’t recall him showing magely powers… I know that Otataral gifts people the ability to heal, is it thanks to this? A gift of Quick Ben’s? And Erikson does it again, with that almost immediate answer to various little queries I have through my reading: the inner discipline of a Claw training… I actually am coming round to enjoying this method of Erikson’s—it makes me work constantly. I’m always trying to put together little clues, most often coming back with an answer of five, but it makes me feel as though I am entering into a two-way process with the author, rather than being fed everything instantly that I need to know. Do you see what I mean?
I love this quote: “Sorcery makes a hunter lazy, tuned only to what they expect will be obvious, given their enhanced senses.” It creates a nice fallibility in the use of magic that means Kalam can feasibly go up against mages here in his weakened state without the reader scoffing at the unrealistic notion. I also like this aspect of Erikson’s writing—everything seems carefully considered before it is placed into the story, monitored to make sure it fits the internal consistency of the world within which he works.
Phrases like this can baffle though: “The darkness poured its sorcery over him as he plunged into the alcove…” If this isn’t Kalam’s own sorcery, or the sorcery of one of his opponents [Bill: It’s the latter—Kalam notes that patch of darkness is different.], then it makes the passage deliberately difficult. If all Erikson means is that the darkness of the night creates a barrier between him and observers, then the use of the word “sorcery” should not be employed at this point.
Heh, I do love the collection of weapons that every Claw comes with—reminds me of those films where people come before a king or something and have to leave their weapons at the door, and end up creating a proper pile of killing tools. *grins* [Bill: I love those moments, especially that pause at the end where they think they’ve gotten them all then, “oh wait . . .” and they pull one out of….]
The sorcery was fading as he completed his accoutrements, revealing that at least one of his victims had been a mage.
So, again an observation that Claws seem to have their own form of magery. But this bit about his opponent being revealed as a mage—do mages have some physical characteristic that makes them identifiable? [Bill: In this case, it’s the magic fading at the same time as the death that clues him in.] I’m probably asking completely unnecessary questions here, but all of these points occur to me as I read, and I might as well throw them out there for you to a) scoff at me asking such things and b) get you wondering about them too and possibly provide me with answers!
This sentence is awesome and makes me shudder with the potential of death to come: “He set out into the night, hunting Claw.”
Hmm, is the silence that greeted Shadowthrone’s communication with the Azath due to the fact that the guardian of the Azath was dead? If there had been a guardian, would Shadowthrone have received his answer? It seems strange that someone as manipulative as Shadowthrone would head into a situation where he wasn’t completely sure of how his tenuous “ally” would react….
I suspect this brief mention of the map on the floor of the Azath—the pattern showing all of the other Azaths—will become massively important at some point, especially the point that Crokus makes. How creepy that there is nothing under the map… I wonder if that explains Crokus’s point—he says it is a map on a tabletop, and spoke about how there were no entry points for other Azaths. I wonder if you stand on a particular point of this map and it takes you to the corresponding Azath. I guess we’ll find out when Pust comes back into the picture. *grins*
“But this is far beyond me—this warren—and worse, my crimes are like wounds that refuse to close. I cannot escape my cowardice. In the end—and all here know it, though they don’t speak of it—my selfish desires made a mockery of my integrity, my vows. I had a chance to see the threat ended, ended forever. How can friendship defeat such an opportunity?”
Whose internal thoughts do we hear? Mappo or Icarium? Or neither?! [Bill: The former.]
From tragedy to comedy on one page: first, the loss of Icarium and Mappo, and Fiddler’s “welling of grief” at losing two people he’d come to consider friends; and then Crokus muttering “I’ve seen bigger” when glimpsing the three dragons flying through the warren. And how immune has he become to all things weird in the last months, that he shrugs off three dragons?
Fiddler briefly wondered about those three dragons—where they had gone, what tasks awaited them…
I wonder if we’ll find out about it in three books time or six. *grins and shakes head ruefully* And here is a rough reminder—if Quick Ben’s conversation with Kalam wasn’t enough—that we have a world of events to catch up with: “…a sobering reminder that the world was far bigger than that defined by their own lives, their own desires and goals.”
Oh, this is a philosophy to live by, for sure! It really created a resonance with me, and made me think about my own life—it’s rare a book will do that to me…
“It pays to know humility, lest the delusion of control, of mastery, overwhelms.”
Hideous after the fall of Coltaine, we now have to suffer the enjoyment and celebration of Korbolo Dom’s men—but think on this… imagine, instead, if we had travelled during this book with Korbolo Dom—seen the suffering of his men, the constant frustrations provided by Coltaine, got to know mages and soldiers within his troop—we would now be celebrating along with him at the final fall of Coltaine and the rid of this menace to the lands. Two sides to every story, people, and I think this is one of the greatest lessons that Erikson’s writing imparts.
This is powerful writing and brings home what it must have felt like to stand on those walls:
Two powerful honours had clashed—the raw duty to save the lives of fellow soldiers, and the discipline of the Malazan command structure—and from that collision ten thousand living, breathing, highly trained soldiers now stood broken.
And the nobles just don’t stop, do they? Grrr…. Nethpara being bastard enough to imply that Coltaine was the cause of all the refugee deaths. I’m so angry.
Heh, here is another of those facts—like a sweaty obese person—that marks out someone you shouldn’t like in a fantasy novel: “The High Fist’s armour was ornate, more decorative than functional.”
Okay, I’m about to join the chorus [Bill: All together now.]… I HATE MALLICK REL:
Duiker’s gaze swung to Mallick Rel, and the historian wondered at the satisfied flush in the priest’s face, but only for a moment. “Ah, of course, past slights. Not a man to cross, are you, Rel?”
*cheers at Nethpara’s timely demise* Go Duiker!
Mystery atop mystery about the word Jhistal, and why it inspires such hatred.
On the same page I feel such vicious hatred for the Jhistal, and then ill-suppressed glee at the fact he couldn’t pass across Aren thanks to the insubordination of some of his army.
There was no shortage of spikes, yet it took a day and a half before the last screaming prisoner was nailed to the last crowded cedar lining Aren Way.
*begins tearing up again*
Oh Duiker… *goes to find that box of tissues again* My only hope here is that the pendant he wore will give him life again—his death was so ignominious and useless and a waste. And painful and harrowing and treacherous. I think though, a part of him would have been willing to take the same punishment as those other 10,000. What a horribly senseless waste. *chokes tears back*
Bill’s Comments on Chapter Twenty-Two
The opening of the chapter is one of those kinds of paragraphs that I think sometimes separate those who enjoy Erikson and those who don’t. The latter are going “Eels? Who the hell cares about eels? ‘Kalam pulled himself out of the water’—bam! That’s all you need. Oh, and by the way, dump the “broken crockery” and “seaweed-bearded pier.” Obviously I’m in the former camp. I like the eels. I like getting a scene set without necessarily knowing what’s about to unfold in the scene. I like having a sense of a world before it’s disturbed by the human (or otherwise) presence—a reminder that the world spins out with or without us, much as we like to think otherwise.
Similarly, the idea that there are creatures who have their own highly significant situations happening—in this case egg-laying— that have nothing to do with our grandiose thoughts of Empire. In this specific case, I also enjoy the contrast between the life going on underwater and all the death about to take place above ground, along with the sharp insight that these creatures only get to have their undisturbed significant moments because, at least as of yet, we humans haven’t yet figured out a way to exploit them or fit them to our needs. Ripples, of course, are a nice lead-in image to Kalam’s physical appearance, as what happens here tonight as he “disturbs the scene” certainly has potential to cause some ripples. And yes, I even want the “broken crockery” as it lends real world heft to the action. The same with the black pitch and the spots rubbed clean of it where the ships have been tossed against the piles.
In an earlier Kalam fight scene, I’d mentioned how I liked that Erikson gave us a specific play by play so we could not only envision the fight but also understand how he was able to take on more than one combatant, rather than just leaving it up to faith in Kalam’s “badness” or a suspension of disbelief. I have the same reaction to the momentary pause here where we watch Kalam use his mind/body control to slow his bleeding. (Just as later we’ll see him use his mind/body control to hide his heat.) I get so tired of movie fights where I watch people battle on well past the point of physical plausibility—the kinds of fights were you go “broke that arm…there goes the knee…” and so on, though one would be hard pressed to see any actual effect on the hero’s fighting ability. (Let’s not even go into the miraculous recovery male heroes show time and again after being kicked—hard—between the legs.) Actually, Amanda, one of the things I liked about Die Hard (at least the first) was Willis actually looked like he’d been in a fight, and often moved that way as well.
Similarly, we have some general reasons as to why it’s plausible that Kalam can take on lots of Claw, more than just he’s so good or because we want him to be able to: their over-reliance on sorcery, their desire to let him get “into the maze,” his awareness of their methods, Topper letting them get soft, his playing against their expectation that he’ll run or hide. Also, though unstated, one imagines the battle with the Talon took some toll that the Claw is still recovering from.
So as Amanda says, after all Pust’s talk about bargains and negotiations and agreements and betrayal, turns out that the bargain was one-sided, as all that ever came from the Azath was silence. Or, as Pust so memorably puts it:
“My master could have pronounced his intention to defecate on the House’s portal and still the reply would not have changed. Silence.”
It also tells us a bit about Shadowthrone that he takes said silence as a go-ahead. I’d say, Amanda, he’s just the kind of person that would do that—picture the kid with his hand in the cookie drawer and mom upstairs saying aloud—quietly—“If I can have a cookie, just don’t say anything…”
He’s a minor character, obviously, but I’m glad Erikson gave the honor of realizing they were walking on a map of sorts to Rellock.
What a great moment of realization of scale as they move from looking at the map of an entire continent on a mosaic tile “no larger than a hand’s width” to a seemingly endless floor of them. And a sense of power. And let’s remember Cotillion and Kellanved managed to figure out at least some of that power.
It has nothing to do with anything, but Fiddler’s description of Pust as “our very own pet scorpion” made me chuckle as in a few books you’ll see Fiddler with an actual “very own pet scorpion.”
Mappo shows some good self-insight when he is so hard on himself for not surrendering Icarium. The obvious reason of course is his friendship with him, his selfishness for not sacrificing his friendship. But I like how he (and thus Erikson) takes it a step further than the usual when he realizes that it was not simple friendship, or selfishness to keep a friend, but also fear of the unknown and of new responsibility—for with Icarium Mappo will have to become responsible for his own life, will have to make his own choices, ones not predicated on the simple equation of steering Icarium from danger.
His line, “the tracks we have walked in for so long become our lives, in themselves a prison” is often true in its own right (how many lives are ruled by inertia?), but is one of those moments where it’s easy for the reader to forget just what is meant by “so long” to some of these characters. We’re talking centuries and millennia—that’s a lot of inertia behind one. We’ll see/hear several other ascendants make the same point—how they walk the same paths again and again. This is perhaps an advantage for Shadowthrone and Cotillion—a nimbleness of thought due to their relative youth. This also may give us answer as to why someone like Rake involves himself and his people in fight that seem to have little to do with them, as with Darujhistan, Pale, or the Pannion Seer.
Fiddler, and one assumes the rest to at least some extent, are certainly getting some lessons in humility this trip. First the scale of Soletaken, then the scale of the Azath realms, and then the dragons who sweep by them. Hard to feel one’s significance in the face of all that. (Which is not to say Fiddler is insignificant. Far, far from it.)
Gotta love the shift from “it pays to know humility, lest the delusion of control, of mastery, overwhelms” to Korbolo Dom’s name.
I’m gonna disagree a bit with you Amanda on the “had we followed Dom . . . we’d be celebrating . . .” bit. I might go with it had it not been for Dom’s brutality and crucifixions. (First of children, now of unarmed men.) I can buy the concept, but not this particular case.
Little throwaway line about how Duiker learns from “a Wickan youth named ‘Temul’” that Silandia had not yet arrived with the wounded. Temul, like the boy Duiker brought in with him (Grub), will have roles in future books. (Cue debate on if that was indeed Grub in one…two…)
We can see yet another example of Coltaine’s ability to plan ahead. With what Blistig tells Duiker about how the rewriting of history regarding the Chain of Dogs has already begun via Nethpara, Coltaine’s decision to send Duiker on—with his historian’s eyes and eyewitness credibility—seems not just wise but essential to forestall the tragedy of Coltaine becoming the villain of this story.
And who else feels that sick drop in the stomach when Pormqual talks of treason, of selling refugees, of arresting Duiker, Nil, and Nether? And I don’t consider myself a particularly bloodthirsty person, but I have to admit that sick drop was lightened somewhat by Duiker’s boot to Nethpara’s throat.
“Jhistal.” Hate the Jhistal. Glad, however, he goes by the title as it catches Keneb’s ear. Hate the Jhistal though.
And god, I hate reading this scene, knowing what’s coming. It never loses its impact. In fact, it just gains it because I feel it so much longer.
Hate Mallick Rel.
Love Duiker.
The pace of all this, Duiker’s matter-of-fact tone, the inevitability of it all, his tender care (dare I say “compassion”) for his horse, the slow sentence after sentence paragraph upon paragraph movement to what we know is coming just adds so much to the emotional impact. It’s like a slow march to the gallows. Which makes the small moments of pleasure so much more precious: Duiker’s horse making its way out of the disaster, Blistig’s staying behind to keep Aren out of Dom’s hands, Rel unintentionally breaking the soulkeep bottle on Duiker.
Of course, we’ve been set up for this ending (in terms of its tragic nature if not its specific points) all along. Lots of hints that Aren may not yield to the refugees, that Rel would betray the city, that Pormqual would not help, that Baruk’s bottle would be needed, that the Chain wouldn’t make it, that Dom is a fan of brutality in general and crucifixion in particular. But so much of our own optimism, our desire for things to work out, and of course the way our media has trained us to expect a “happy ending” keeps us pushing all those hints aside.
The tragedy sharpens yet again when Duiker is dying, not with his death but his litany of names, though ironically one of those most bitter is in fact nameless: “the time for memories, for regrets . . . is past . . . Your nameless marine awaits you, and Bult, and Corporal List, and Lull and Sulwar and Mincer. Kulp and Heboric too, most likely.” Amidst the pain of those lost in the Chain, we get the reminder of Kulp, a death we may have thought we were over until now, though as with the earlier scene, Erikson tosses us a bone: Heboric, whom we know still lives.
After the horror of the last few chapters: the Chain dying in droves, Coltaine’s Fall, the slaughter of unarmed men, their crucifixion, it’s a somewhat surprisingly peaceful close for Duiker:
A ghostly, tusked face rose before his mind’s eye . . . The gravest compassion filled that creature’s unhuman eyes, a compassion that Duiker could not understand
The appearance of the Jaghut, by the way, is something to file away for a later discussion.
Chapter Twenty-Three
SCENE 1
Kalam continues fighting Claws. He’s seemingly about to be killed but is saved by Minala. They head for Mock’s Hold.
SCENE 2
Fiddler and the others fall through and find themselves in the Deadhouse in Malaz City. Inside they meet a Guardian—Gothos—and he reveals Icarium is his son. He also bemoans that Icarium wasn’t taken and reveals that Mappo had been lied to about Icarium destroying his village—that the Nameless Ones had done it to get a companion because Icarium’s last one had killed himself. When Fiddler asked why Icarium is so cursed, Gothos says he wounded a warren to try and free Gothos from the Azath and was damaged. Fiddler thanks the gods for mortality, thinking he couldn’t live with such long-lived torment. Gothos directs them to a bucket of healing water on their way out. Apsalar senses Claw sorcery on the air. Fiddler says they should aim for Smiley’s tavern. Panek and Apt rise up as they exit the grounds and tells them Kalam is going to Mock’s Hold to see the Empress and they offer to take them through Shadow.
SCENE 3
As Minala and Kalam ride the stallion up the stairs of Mock’s Hold, they enter a warren which takes them inside. Minala stays back and Kalam enters a room to have an audience with Laseen. She asks why he’s come to kill her. He lists: killing the Bridgeburners deliberately, outlawing Dujek, trying to kill Whiskeyjack and the Ninth, old disappearances (Old Guard), maybe killing Dassem Ultor, killing Dancer and Kellanved, incompetence, betrayal. Laseen requests and is granted a defense. She says: Tayschrenn’s “efforts in Genabackis were misguided,” she didn’t plan or want to kill the Bridgeburners, Lorn was sent to kill Sorry, Dujek’s outlawing was a ruse. She admits to killing Dancer and Kellanved and usurping the throne in betrayal saying the Empire, which is greater than any individual, required it. She followed what she saw as necessity, though admits to some “grievous errors in judgment.” On Dassem, she answers he was ambitious and sworn to Hood and she struck first to avoid civil war. When Kalam asks about Seven Cities she says it will be repaid in kind and her anger convinces Kalam. He calls her Empress and turns away (he’s also been aware for some time she isn’t actually physically present). She warns him she can’t call off the Claw and asks where he’ll go when he escapes them. Kalam and Minala head out.
SCENE 4
Topper and Laseen converse. She says Kalam is no longer a threat, and knows he’d realized she wasn’t really there. She tells Topper she doesn’t want to lose Kalam and he says he can’t call off the Claw but she’s crazy if she thinks they’ll kill Kalam. He tells her to consider it an overdue winnowing. Topper says he’s angry with Pearl and Laseen says discipline him but not too much.
SCENE 5
Four Hands appear and then Apt and Fiddler’s group arrives to help. They all end up in shadows. Kalam tells Fiddler he changed his mind about killing Laseen. Shadowthrone arrives and tells them they’re in Shadowrealm and Apt has delivered them to him. Apt yells at him. Shadowthrone says he’ll reward them all. Apsalar, her father, and Crokus ask to be sent to the Kanese coast (where Cotillion first possessed her—her home) and they disappear. Kalam says he and Minala could do with a rest and Shadowthrone says he knows just the place, and Apt will be with them. Fiddler says he’s going to re-enlist and go join Tavore. Shadowthrone sends him to behind Smileys. Shadowthrone takes Kalam and Minala to where the 1300 children saved from crucifixion are.
Amanda’s Reaction to Chapter Twenty-Three
Well, isn’t that little poem to kick of Chapter Twenty-Three both smug and self-satisfied?
Not much to say about Kalam’s creep through Malaz City, both hunter and hunted, except that I like it. Erikson’s writing really grips you during tense moments like this.
I do love that on Minala’s rescue of Kalam—after he hasn’t seen her for ages, the only thing he can find to say is, “Where in Hood’s name are you taking us? The whole city’s crawling with Claws, woman—”
The fatalism of Fiddler makes me smile:
“Put ‘em away […] Either we’re guests or we’re dead.”
Hmm, I might be making some very tenuous connections here, but this guardian in the Deadhouse wears ochre cloaks and those three dragons that flew through Tremorlor were also ochre-coloured…
I’m reeling from the information we’re given here—Icarium’s Jaghut father is Gothos, someone we’ve heard about a few times before; Icarium was meant to have been kept secure by the Azath; Jaghut have very few places where they can find the solitude they crave and the Azath are one of those places; Icarium once wounded a warren trying to save his father. It is a positive deluge that no doubt has repercussions for future novels.
Hmm, I’ve played a little bit of roleplaying, and that bit with the swift healing bucket of water on the way out of the Deadhouse reminds me of nothing but that. *grin* The idea that you’ve been through pain and battles and suffered wounds and lost comrades—and then you get a chance to rest up briefly, and recover back all your “lost life” to face the next step. Anyone else?
This romance is anything but normal—and I love it all the more for that fact!
He looked away, then back. “Why?”
She bared her teeth. “Can you really be that dense, Kalam? In any case, was I wrong?”
There were some barriers the assassin had never expected to be breached. Their swift crumble left him breathless.”
*lots of little hints drop into place with big clunks* FINALLY we have an explanation about Dujek and the reason behind his outlawing! Of course, it could be entirely unreliable, coming from the narrator that it does. *narrows eyes*
I am enjoying finally coming face to face with Laseen—cool, dry, analytical. Not the raving lunatic monster that I expected—a fierce sense of duty, an ability to look beyond the here and now. “I answered a necessity I could not avoid, with reluctance, with anguish.”
I LOVE the ending to the confrontation between Laseen and Kalam—it is so fitting somehow. And I would NOT want to be at the end of Laseen’s fierce since of vengeance: “Will be answered in kind.” Suddenly I find some small amount of liking and respect for this Empress. This one talk has given us so much of her character—including the mistrust and fear she shows of Kalam by ensuring that she is not actually present. Heh, nice of him to play along as well. *grins*
The realism of this fantasy series never fails to make its presence known—instead of Kalam having a titanic assassin showdown, he has “an audience with a mortal woman…”
Little snippets like this make my soul sing: “Hood’s breath, Dancer himself would have hesitated before taking on Kalam Mekhar.” And you know something? If a person read that sentence who hadn’t read the Malazan novels to this point, they would have no idea at the depth of meaning conveyed with just those words. I like being part of an exclusive gang that hisses through their teeth as they read that the very God of Assassins would have qualms about taking on mortal killer. Good times, folks, good times! [Bill: And just wait ‘til you see what Dancer can do!]
You know another thing I like? (I’m finding a lot of those things right now, aren’t I?) The fact that Kalam gets injured. He’s not completely infallible. He just manages to push through the pain and blood with stubborn persistence and a little sorcery.
Deadpan humour once again, that says so much and so little:
“Any problems?”
“Nothing to it.”
“Glad to hear one of us had it easy.”
The ending to Chapter Twenty-Three is a good one. Shadowthrone face to face with those who were his subjects as Kellanved, and who he still sees as belonging to him. I did respect his words when he said: “And with such soldiers, it is no wonder we conquered half a world—no, Fiddler, I do not mock. This once, I do not mock.” I would now hate anyone who did mock the soldiers of the Malazan Empire.
Bill’s Comments on Chapter Twenty-Three
We haven’t been doing much with the poems that open the chapters lately, but this one caught my eye a bit with its reference to Tavore holding bones: that’s an image with some major resonances later on (say, in a book called Bonehunters).
Funny you mention roleplaying. The whole scene as they wander the Azath without knowing what to do to get to where they’re going reminded me of a time I created this amazing dungeon (and I mean amazing of course) that had what I thought was a blindingly obvious entry: bleed into a small basin that had a poem above it or something that made it stunningly clear you needed to put your blood into it. And I sat there for 20 minutes while my friends did everything but: they spit into it, they poured water in it, they cried into it, they poured healing potions and wine into it; yes, they peed in it at the bitter end. Sigh. Heavy sigh.
Gotta love the dogs in this series. Great name for this beast too: Flower. Didn’t see that coming.
Another throwaway line that sets us up for later: Fiddler’s “I wish Mappo was here with his elixirs.”
And there’s a big surprise: a Jaghut in the Deadhouse. And further surprise, he is Icarium’s father. And surprise on surprise, he’s actually upset Mappo didn’t let the Azath take Icarium. ‘Course, in the backstory we get a sense of just why people think Icarium is so dangerous (though we’ve obviously had glimpses): he actually managed to wound a warren, actually attacked a warren to try to “save” his father. (The irony of course being that his father had no desire to leave the Azath.) And surprise atop surprise atop surprise: the Jaghut is Gothos himself, of whom we’ve heard throughout the series (and will hear/see more of later). Yes, lots of repercussions from that backstory.
All of this is a bit much for poor Fiddler, yet more pounding home seemingly of just how insignificant humans are—though it serves to make him thankful for our short lives so as not to have to endure such long-lived torment. (And no, I’ll never tire of saying despite all these reminders of his insignificance Fiddler is hardly that.)
It’s interesting the paragraph on Crokus’s last look around the room before they leave. It appears almost wistful to me and I was wondering what people thought of his response. I’m thinking it was a reminder of his Uncle Mammot the scholar. Anybody think it’s more than that—a part of him attracted to the quiet life—away from all the running and killing and screaming, etc.?
Here is one of the few times we see (well, kind of) Laseen directly. We’ve heard lots about her, had lots of criticisms of her and accusations, but for the first time she’s allowed a voice herself, specifically a defense against the sundry charges Kalam lays against her. Of course, by now we know the drill: accept a character’s pronouncements of “truth” at your own risk. Laseen certainly gives us another view of things, some of which we know to be true (such as the false outlawing of Dujek et. al), but at this point we’ll just have to file away some of her other defenses as “to still be proven (if we’re lucky)”, such as blaming Tayschrenn for “misguided” efforts in Genabackis. Or that Tayschrenn is now Dujek’s “shaved knuckle in the hold” (something to remember when we return to the Bridgeburners in our next book). What I like about this scene is that all the verbiage Laseen tosses out as justification doesn’t do much at all for Kalam; it’s the emotion behind her response to his question about how she’ll deal with the Seven Cities uprising. And talk about decisive: five words, a bit of anger, and snip—Kalam is done with the hunt.
I love too both Laseen’s and Topper’s complete confidence that Kalam will not be stopped by the Claw still outside waiting: Laseen wondering where he’ll go after he deals with or escapes them and Topper laughing at the mere concept that the Claw will kill him, already writing off the night’s losses as a necessary culling of the weak.
Every now and then we get some lines in these books that make me wonder if Erikson is speaking directly to the reader. Here, it’s Kalam’s words to Minala after his semi-audience:
“Again and again we cling to the foolish belief that simple solutions exist. Aye, I anticipated a dramatic, satisfying confrontation—the flash of sorcery, the spray of blood.”
I can hear the writer in him saying to us: “yeah, yeah, I know—where’s the big battle between the two uber-assassins? Where’s all the cool knife work? Where’s my Crouching Claw Hidden Talon choreography? Too bad—not getting it.” Keeps us on our toes, it does.
And then the gang is (well, much of the gang) all here again, like good old times: Apt tossing bodies right and left, Fiddler throwing sharpers, Apsalar dragging bodies into shadows. And then the ringmaster shows up—Shadowthrone himself to hand out goodies. Then the gang’s broken up pretty abruptly as Apsalar, Rellock, and Crokus disappear (off to their stated desire we assume—back to Apsalar’s home). Then Fiddler is off to re-enlist and meet up with Tavore’s army back in Seven Cities, though not before actually evoking some sincere and well-deserved respect from Shadowthrone: “with such soldiers, it is no wonder we conquered half a world—no Fiddler, I do not mock. This once, I do not mock.” And the conquering is the least of what will get done with such soldiers.
And then finally, Minala and Kalam get his requested “rest”—taking care of 1300 children. Anybody see Kalam finding this particularly restful for long? Didn’t think so. Cue another book….
Bill Capossere writes short stories and essays, plays ultimate frisbee, teaches as an adjunct English instructor at several local colleges, and writes SF/F reviews for fantasyliterature.com.
Amanda Rutter contributes reviews and a regular World Wide Wednesday post to fantasyliterature.com, as well as reviews for her own site floortoceilingbooks.com (covering more genres than just speculative), Vector Reviews and Hub magazine.
Hope your flatmate is ok Amanda. And now on to the reread.
Bill:
Obviously I’m in the former camp. I like the eels. I like getting a scene set without necessarily knowing what’s about to unfold in the scene. I like having a sense of a world before it’s disturbed by the human (or otherwise) presence—a reminder that the world spins out with or without us, much as we like to think otherwise.
Nice setting up for a brilliant Hellian scene in tBH too. ;)
@Amanda: I hope things are better with you friend.
From the epigram to Chapter 22, I love the imagery at the end: “like night drawing breath”.
I’m not much of a roleplayer or RPGer, but the bucket of healing water made me think of Final Fantasy II. Just needed a replenish-magic bucket to go with it.
Oh, and does anyone know if we see the three dragons from the Azath map room again? I can’t seem to remember who they’d be, unless they’re all sisters…
And finally, the Jaghut ghost visits Duiker. It held no deeper meaning to me during my first two reads because (a) I hadn’t read past The Bonehunters, and (b) I hadn’t quite gotten involved in the Malazan forums yet. But now, wow.
When Fiddler & co. enter the Deadhouse, they see:
For this suit, we have an explanation for the damage as we saw the guardian fight Temper in NoK.
Gothos turns and says”
So, we see that while the Azath greeted Shadowthrones offer with silence, it was noted.
Also, it in interesting that at the start, Gothos is refered to as “the guardian” twice. After that he is refered to as “the Jaghut.” We see the fireplace and a homey scene with scrolls and such. From this, many infer that Gothos is the new guardian of the Deadhouse and has settled himself in.
At this point, I’ll mostly reserve judgement on what Gothos is doing in this particular Azath, except that I don’t entirely think that he is exactly the guardian.
I get that Rel is a vengeful child prodigy. He’s been smart and powerful since he was young and used to thinking of the people around him as fools, and he never grew up. He also long since stopped seeing where it was his power enabling him to suceed against people and not his intellect. But again with that “powerful” thing, so the only thing that those people can do is what Duiker did, endure the childish banality of it all and try not to act bored when it finally gets where its going and Rel starts capering and mocking people.
Made that end so satisfying, though.
“Vast numbers of people are dead for no good reason. You can do that, and there isn’t any way to stop you. We still kicked your ass though. Really, you’re just not that good.“
I also really liked how we see that skill and cunning (Kalam) can overcome somewhat lazily applied sorcery. The claw use the same tactics they always do–tactics of which Kalam is very aware.
Kalam then kicks their asses.
I liked the eel details also, Bill.
Amid Laseen’s various justifications is the exchange:
Of course, for there to be a civil war there would need to be at least two parties squabbling. If Laseen had been willing to accept Dassem’s authority there would be no conflict. Striking first to avoid a war that only she would have caused–questionable.
Duiker saving his horse is yet another reason to love him.
If Pormqual isn’t under Rel’s sorcerous influence then he may very well one of the biggest idiots in the series. There is the betraying of Coltaine and then riding into a classic (and easily avoided) ambush.
And then we come to Korbolo Dom’s brutality. Nailing 10000 people to trees in an attempt at psychological warfare against Adjunct Tavore was not only nasty, but completely misguided. Very powerful scene. His earlier crucifixion of the children shows that he is fond of this form of execution. In our own past, Crassus crucified around 6,000 of Spartacus’ men along the Appian Way from Capua to Rome in order to discourage other slave revolts.
Another thing I would like to note are the echo’s we can now see to the book’s title. There is the literal movement of Fiddler’s group from Trekorlor to the Deadhouse–so, Tremorlor is the gateway to the Deadhouse.
Then there are the 10000 dead between Aren and the entrance to the Imperial road–both are then gates to the dead.
Thoughout the Chain of Dogs we have the references to Hoods warren being drawn tight around the Chain. Hood is the god of death and so, the whole Chain storyline is again a gateway to the house of the dead.
Thanks for taking the time to post, Amanda. Hope your friend is getting better.
Fiddler briefly wondered about those three dragons—where they had gone, what tasks awaited them…
I’m thinking sisters, since it’s 3.
Amanda: Sorry, but I can’t muster one iota of sympathy for Dom. I don’t give a damn what his nasty childhood was. I’m sorry he had that, but what he did to the children and these honorable soldiers, is beyond the beyond.
I loved Duiker killing Nethpartha. I was so outraged at the lies he was telling, in service to Rel? The nobles? Against Coltaine!! Grrrrrrrr…..
And Duiker. I really came to love that man. A great narrator for the story of the Chain. So humane, such perspective. And perhaps the worst death ever.
I love the way SE portrays Kalam…and others as well…so multi-dimensional. He’s the mostest badassest Claw killer Evar, and yet he bleeds for the children and injustice. Gray. Smart. Tricksy.
I still don’t feel like I have much info on Laseen, even with her pov. Since we are trained to not trust info much of the time, I didn’t trust her explanations for her actions either. Telling indeed that she doesn’t appear in person. Ummmm…cipher. But I do put more trust in Kalam’s judgement.
His line, “the tracks we have walked in for so long become our lives, in themselves a prison” is often true in its own right (how many lives are ruled by inertia?)
One of my very favorite things about SE’s writing are his asides to the audience. His pearls of wisdom. This seems to get even more pervasive as we move through the books. What a wise and philosophical man he is.
Temul and Grub: On first reading I didn’t make the Grub connection, but SE rarely throws in “nameless” characters several times without significance. I vote Grub.
Jhistal: Still don’t get the significance of the word. Other than that it relates to Rel and we hate him. (disowned? excommunicated?)
Jaghut ghost face: ?? That bell hasn’t rung for me either and I’m in Toll the Hounds. What did I miss?
Shalter@8:
I definitely thought Rel has sorcerous influence over Pormqual, especially given the incident in Malaz City later in the series. We will probably never have confimation of this, but it seems logical. Either that, or as you say, he is a complete idiot. But then we have to ask, how did he rise to this position?
I don’t think those 3 dragons can be connected to the 3 sisters since they are always identified by their distinctive coloration. Also I think one of them may still be stuck in the ground at this point.
@@@@@ Tektonica #10
Jhistal is a type of clergy devoted to Mael, god of the seas
the jaghut ghost… well it appears to duiker as he’s dying, and if you’ve read TtH, then you know who the god of death is…
@@@@@ MDW #12
i don’t think that it’s the sisters either – colouring and the fact that one is still azath’d.
haha, ok just had to post this captcha – about gingly. i think i’ll write that screen-play
Well, put me on the list of eaten posts! Ha! this time I actually wrote stuff down so here it is again.
Saltman Z @@@@@ 3 I assumed that the Jaghut ghost was the spirit guide of lull/List? that appeared after he suffered his high fevers.
Shalter @@@@@ 4 “not exactly the Guardian” (Gothos) Hmmmm…lordy, something else for the files-
Tehtonica @@@@@ 11 there was a line in the story that said Pormqual was one of the few nobles left who had bought his commission.
The Malazan disapline must have been awesome to actually believe they would be prisoners of war and lay down their weapons without rumblings. I thought they were ‘thinking soldiers’ or did that pertain only to the Bridgeburners?
Kalem’s assorted goodies from the leather shop reminded me of the hero of “Codex Alera”, when he had no magic and had to rely on wits , problem solving and using what he had at hand.
Get well wishes to your friend. Amanda
Thanks Amanda and Bill. Amanda, I also hope all is well as can be with your friend.
These chapters were definitely action filled, and still fairly good at drawing out emotions from the reader (well, at least this one).
Bill, I liked your comparing/contrasting the life beginning underwater and the death happening above ground. So I liked more of the unveiling of the abilities and tools of the Claw, even those that are “only human,” non-sorcerers.
These chapters were actually another great example of how being a magic-wielder in fantasy isn’t always necessary for a character to be incredibly capable. Amanda’s quote she cited about sorcery is a great example of this (and is another way in which Erikson is showing/telling this reader that Erikson will not be using magic as the end-all & be-all superweapon that you may find in other series; that mortal men matter just as much, if not more than mages and supernatural beings…
Amanda, I appreciate your questions about sorcery in relation to the Claw mage, because the resulting comments from Bill help to clarify some of the shaky conclusions I had drawn while I was reading them. Please keep asking; you speak for all of us first-timers!
I also found Crokus’s comments on the dragons kinda funny. And this mention of dragons here, for the 2nd book in a row, makes me think that dragons will play a role in Erikson’s Malazan series (even if it’s only a small role, or if the dragons are actually shapeshifters like the 4 “wingmen” for Silanah in GotM). And my fellow commenters have mentioned “3 sisters?” Consider me intrigued and in a state of anticipation. I’m excited to see how Erikson would write the role of dragons in this story…
The actions of the nobles pissed me off, and yet I found those actions to be completely believable of the characters based upon what we’ve learned of them through the story. I’m not gonna lie; I cheered a little when Duiker killed Nethpara (the man shouldn’t have tried to gloat within boot’s reach of Duiker). Too bad Duiker didn’t get another shot at Pullyk Alar
I have to say that when I first read these chapters, I had read Chapters 20&21 and 22&23 within about 24 hours, so I was still emotionally spent from the “betrayal” and death of Coltaine and the remnants of the Seventh. Duiker’s death (having to watch an entire army be crucified before you join them) saddened and moved me, but it was nothing like the emotion I felt in Chapters 20/21. Still, I admired the way Duiker faced what this character had to know was his death, from the moment Duiker saw how Pormqual had condemned him (Nil, Nether and by extension all of the Seventh) as a traitor and villain. And to send his horse back to Aren; to save its life after all he and the horse had been through…
When the glass bottle around Duiker’s neck broke when Mallick Rel struck him, I was immediately expecting something big and flashy. Maybe another of the Empire’s conjured demons to enter the fray, maybe the opening of a warren. Instead, we got nothing immediate, which increases the curiosity even more. What is the significance of that bottle? Hmm…
So, Mappo was deceived into becoming Icarium’s friend and guardian. And poor Gothos, to have your son try to save you, only to have that lead to your son’s diminishing. And now, to objectively realize that your son needs to be “contained” by the Azath…
Hey Apt and Panek! Good to see you, and what great timing…
I really liked the exchange between Kalam and Laseen’s voice. I admit it; I had a negative initial impression of the Empress. Erikson once again shows the reader that things aren’t so cut-and-dry, black-and-white, good-and-evil, etc. Do I still think Laseen is shady, and is manipulating Kalam? Sure. But I also can see her side, in regards to her actions. Maybe she’s learned from her mistakes (allowing and/or facilitating the demise of the Ninth, the Ninth’s cadre mages and 2 High mages, placing Pormqual as High Fist, etc) and will become a better, wiser ruler and judge of talent/skill/capabilities. Maybe not…
I am incredibly intrigued about what will happen with Fiddler in his second tour of duty; I’m sure we’ll be seeing that in a future book. The same with Kalam and Minala and their 1300 “children.” My imagination is running wild with how Kalaam may raise (train) those kids, and how Shadowthrone can then use their abilities. Maybe “Uncle” Cotillion will also play a part. (1300 Shadow Assassins or the like, maybe?)
I also really hope (and strongly believe) that we haven’t seen the last of Apsalar. I wonder if she’ll end up as an addition to the Deck of Dragons: The Fatid (and Associated Attendants) in High House Shadow listed in the back of the books? Maybe as the “Queen” of High House Shadow? Maybe High House Shadow will add a “Herald,” “Wife,” or “Maiden” figure?
There are so many reasons to keep on reading this amazing series; Fiddler, Kalam, Crokus & Apsalar, Kalam’s “kids,” and how they all turn out are just a few. Oh, and I’m sure we’ll see more from “Auntie” Apt!
I had to jump ahead of the reread pace (this series is just way too good and I’m still working on that whole “patience” thing) and am now up to Chapter 4 of Memories of Ice! I can’t wait until we get there! Deadhouse Gates has already joined the ranks of “Favored Fantasy Books” for me, and MoI looks like it may join DG!
@@@@@ 7. Shalter
I agree. I always think the exact same thing every time I read this. Also, it makes me chuckle a bit that she thinks so highly of herself that the Empire would enter into a civil war taking sides between her and Dassem. What warren did she just crawl out of that she pictured that would happen? I mean, other than the Claw, who would have supported her over Dassem? It just always makes me laugh.
:-)
@@@@@ 10. Tektonica
What I loved most was the “swiftness” of it. No thought to consequence (Pormqual was going to charge him with treason anyway), so at that specific point in time, Duiker had had enough and wasn’t going to take any more and he just did it! Normally that kind of action would probably bother me, but in this case it was so deserved that I found myself applauding Duiker’s kick.
KiManiak@15:
Expect to have your expectations overturned as you read–SE is good at that. Of course, he also does big and flashy really well.
@16 Robin
Not to mention that it seems unlikely that Dassem would even have wanted to become emperor…
Hi all,
I’ve been following the re-read since the start but I’ve only posted a couple times. This will be my first longer post. I’ve read through the whole series up to Midnight Tides twice and am about to read TBH for the second time. I’ve not read past that even once. The first time through I read at my usual pace and found that I’d missed way too much. So I started over, reading carefully, and am enjoying it much more than the first time.
I must be one of the few who found the crucifixion’s harder to take then Coltaine’s fall. The whole book had been set up for Coltaine to tragically fail. When it happened I didn’t feel that much surprise. It was tragic and heroic but it didn’t fill me with tears like it did some of you others. At that point I thought I thought the worst was over so the shock of reading the mass crucifixion was such that I had to put the book down the first time and walk away for a bit.
Re: some of the comments.
The Jaghut ghost I assume to be List’s Jaghut. It sounds like that is maybe wrong, or there is a whole lot more to come on that front.
I enjoyed the whole Kalam storyline actually. It was a change of pace from the chain of dogs, but not lessened for me for that. I think Laseen deals in half truths a lot. Some of what she said to Kalam was true, some maybe not. But I liked the humanity of her acknowledgment of errors. I think also as a former Claw she is full of suspicion and that may lead her to attribute thoughts and actions to others that they themselves may not.
I don’t think the 3 dragons have anything to do with the sisters. At this point one of the sisters may or may not still be occupied. In any case I doubt they spend much time together. I also think there are more dragons then we know about and given the scope of the Azath worlds they may have little or nothing to do with the Malazan world.
Amanda, since you managed to post I trust that your friend is well.
KiManiak@15:
Yes, there will be more dragons.
#10 Re: Jhistal
It means that he is a cleric in a one (of many) religions devoted to the Elder god of the seas Mael.
The worship of Mael is waning, most sailors etc worship his daughter Beru, godess of still seas, a younger god.
Dom is a highly successfull Jhistal since he has got a lot of power from Mael and even has the power to compell Mael in RotCG.
It’s mentioned in many places in the series that the worship of elder gods implies human sacrifice and that Kellanved tried to eradicate the all blody cults wherever he found them so Dom obviously managed to keep his fait secret while making a career in the Malazan administration.
We will meet Mael later on in the series and he is not pleased with what’s beeing done in his name.
@dreamwolf
You mixed up Mallick Rel and Korbolo Dom ;)
Kah-thurak@19:Yes, Dassem had his own personal problems by that point. I think Surly pretty much manufactured the whole civil war idea in her own mind. Paranoia, they destroy ya‘
@shalter
Beeing paranoid does not mean one is not beeing persecuted* ;-)
But yes, her reasons are not really plausible, but she may have actually believed them
*I bet my translation sucks, the line is pretty good in german.
Re: the Jaghut ghost
I definitely saw this to be List’s guide. He would have been witness to the Chain and Duiker’s trip and been able to summon the compassion that Duiker sees in his eyes.
However, on this latest re-read, that scene came across a little different than it has before. Duiker is accepting his death, and looking forward to seeing those who went before him, and then the ghost appears with compassion in its eyes. The source of that may not be Duiker’s death, but instead that all of Duiker’s expectations are about to be overturned…
djk1978@20:
I’m with you about the crucifixtion. Coltaine’s death was tragic and awful, but somehow seemed almost like release/or ascension. And it was somewhat expected. But the merciless crucifixtion of 10,000 soldiers who had just survived that long gruesome trek, defending the helpless refugees, is profoundly disturbing. Dom is one twisted dude. If there is an “evil” character in MBotF, he is it.
Robin: I don’t usually cheer for murder either, but Nethpartha was so vile and selfish and unsympathetic, and Duiker was so the opposite! Plus the knee-jerk swiftness. Duiker just snapped. Loved it.
Conversely, I didn’t cheer as much when Pormqual bought it. (Although he probably deserved it, being complicit in the deaths of so many.) He was so pathetic, I actually felt sorry for him. He had purchased his position, (thanks for explaining that, Night Owl.), I think he was under Rel’s sorcerous influence, and he was so obviously befuddled and out of his league.
Various: I think you are all right about the 3 dragons. One of the ladies is still occupied.
Kah-thurak@25:
In english, it’s usually stated:
It’s quite true. For Laseen, the maxim seems to go:
;-)
@Shalter
Very true ;-)
@3 Dragons
I dont really know if the timeline is a valid argument here ;-)
Tektonica @27:
The 10,000 were not part of the Chain remember. It’s almost as if they were punished for not doing anything about it. It’s Pormqual’s legion but if they really did “think” as Malazan soldiers are supposed to do, they would have mutinied against him and gone out. So they are complicit in his crime. Not that I’m defending the mass death but I do get elements of that thought process from my reading.
tektonica@27:
The 10,000 soldiers were from Aren, not the Chain. Of course, that doesn’t make crucifying them any better.Between the betrayal of Coltaine and the crucifixion, I don’t know which affected me more. Both captured me with the inconsolability of their scenes.
Duh! You are totally right. They watched from Aren. And Rel/Pormqual were delivering Aren to Dom. At least he didn’t get it, thanks to Blistig and the Red Blades. (Right? Now I’m doubting my brain in all ways.)
It is a mystery why the army rolled over so easily…for Pormqual? Who they couldn’t have trusted after his not helping Coltaine. Ummmm. It’s still hideous. A betrayal, by both their “leaders” and the enemy, who should’ve treated them as prisoners of war.
Gotta love typing up a nice big post just to get a database error upon hitting “submit”. >:/
Anyway, Tek, here’s the significance of “Jhistal”, since nobody’s answered you to my satisfaction: Kalam hears the bandits say they had “the Jhistal inside” of Aren. He doesn’t know what that means, so he mentions it to Keneb, thinking he might. He doesn’t, but when Pormqual prepares to march out of Aren, Keneb hears Rel referred to as “Jhistal” and makes the connection, realizing that Rel is a traitor, and runs to warn Blistig to keep the garrison inside the city.
As for Grub being the child Duiker rescued (or not), we get Grub’s memories of that very event in TCG, so pretty much a definite “yes” on that one.
Saltman Z @33: Thanks for connecting the Jhistal dots. That’s been bugging me for a while but it makes sense now.
Regarding losing posts… I don’t always remember to do this but copy your text before you hit submit. If it blows up you can then just paste it back for a retry. Ctrl+A and Ctrl+C are your friends.
Tektonica @32
I think the army rolled over because they were a broken force.
“Two powerful honours had clashed – the raw duty to save the lives of fellow soldiers, and the discipline of the Malazan command structure – and from that collision ten thousand living, breathing, highly trained soldiers now stood broken.”
SaltManZ@33:
Thank you for laying out the scenario about Jhistal Rel. (Did you mean Kalam in that timeline of events? I’m not trusting my brain today, but I don’t think Kalam was there.) But that wasn’t your point. So thank you.
Does the word Jhistal have a meaning, like adjunct or assistant or head priest? Or does it have something specific to do with Mael? Is it a title?
Idlefun@35: Broken indeed. Can you imagine being one of those 10,000, having to watch your fellow soldiers being crucified, and knowing you would be too. That is torture in and of itself. (If I’d kept a knife, I would’ve done myself in. )
Re: Jhistal…it has been explained pretty well by Salt ManZ. But I also remember in a later book, perhaps it was Midnight Tides, that the Jhistal priests used blood in their worship. I don’t recall if it was always human blood, but that would fit perfectly with the mention of human sacrifice. Blood in SE’s world, takes on an enormous significance. In some cases, blood itself is magical.
Re: the Jaghut seen by List and Duiker. I am in TtH right now. I am wondering if this is the SAME Jaghut person I’m thinking it is, as seen by both men. If so, that would explain a lot to me.
I really loved the scene with Kalam confronting the Empress. And despite the fact that I remembered very little of the boat scenes, this part really stood out for me. Until this point, the Empress had been made out to be an evil, conniving witch of sorts. I was really taken aback and pleasantly so, to have my first impressions so challenged. I really do love how SE does this with his characters. Just brilliant!
Tek: When Kalam rescued Keneb & Minala, he had been riding with bandits. That’s where he heard of the “Jhistal”.
We’ll find out a little more about Jhistals, both in the text and the glossaries of later books, but none of it is super important. Basically, it’s the high priest of an Elder God. But it was also a Falari cult that Kellanved wiped out.
I’ve always loved the meeting between Kalam and Laseen, and the revelation about the sham outlawing leads in nicely to MoI. It’s also why I don’t recommend reading MoI before DG; the end of Kalam’s quest loses some of it’s power when you already know what’s really going down on Genebackis.
Jhistal is seemingly specific to Mael. I’m rereading Dust of Dreams (before diving into TCG) and it’s mentioned that Jhistal was originally a name for the god of the sea and Mael was an Edur word for blood sacrificed to the sea. Over time I guess the names got mixed around so now Jhistal means priest of the sea god called Mael.
Though as Saltman Z says it’s not very important.
SaltManZ@38:
See…this is why I don’t trust my brain today. First I must admit, I kind of quit rereading for the last 4 chapters, and not because I didn’t want to experience the emotions.
My excuse is that we’re moving after 25 years and I am totally overwhelmed with decisions and boxes. No time. Not sleeping. And….obviously not too sharp!
Maybe I should just quit posting at breakfast and lunch until I recover!
So, one thing I noted multiple times in the novel was the complement paid to the Malazan soldier for being formidable due to their ability to think, or something along those lines. It’s ironic that the great downfall of an entire Malazan army of 10,000 was to blindly follow the commands of a clearly incompetent High Fist.
In this case, they didn’t employ one of their strongest traits, and the defeat and slaughter of an entire army of 10,000 Malazan soldiers doesn’t cost their enemy even one soldier.
Makes you wonder what would’ve happened if Whiskeyjack or Gesler would have been one of Pormqual’s captains. I doubt they would have saluted and blindly followed those orders. Then again, they probably wouldn’t have lasted as Pormqual’s captains up to that point if they had displayed that type of backbone or questioning of authority.
KiManiak@41:I think that’s a good observation. The force we see at the end was Pormquals force. He had, no doubt, selected officers to mirror his weaknesses and they had trained the thinking out of the troops.
That, coupled with their breaking at the betrayal of Coltaine give us a force already defeated. The only thing left was to surrender their weapons and then their lives.
shalter@18 and 21 – Thanks. Yes, my faith in Erikson to catch me off guard with the unexpected has been satisfyingly rewarded so far. And, I also enjoyed his big and flashy (loved the fight between Raest and the 5 dragons; Rake and the demon in GotM; the battles of Coltaine and the Seventh vs. Korbolo Dom’s army; etc) and I look forward to more dragons.
shalter@7, robin@16, Kah-Thurak@19 and others who thought Laseen’s rationalization of her elimination of Dassem was highly debatable and self-serving: I don’t disagree with you. But, it appears that Erikson writes people with multiple layers and very human flaws. I find it completely probable (knowing what little we know of Laseen at this point) that Laseen felt that many would join her side against Dassem and that it might split the Empire apart into a civil war. Whereas, if you were to get the opinion of someone like Whiskeyjack about the exact same topic, the number of supporters for Laseen may have been a lot smaller, and the fact whether Dassem would have sought to be Emperor would have been debated as well (I’m guessing).
Regardless, in this exchange between her and Kalam, Laseen became a more 3 dimensional character for me and not just a plain “bad guy” that our protagonists must struggle against. He gave her depth, made her more realistic for me. I see kshields@37 made a similar point…
Tek@27 – I don’t think I cheered when Pormqual was killed. It was more like me just shaking my head at the stupidity of the character, and the fact that his death didn’t in anyway balance the fact that he let Coltaine and the remnants of the Seventh die outside Aren’s gates because he was a scaredy cat (not to mention, effectively betrayed his 10,000 men to the enemy instead of encouraging them to fight for their freedom). I’m getting the impression that we are never told whether Pormqual was ensorcelled by Mallick Rel. Too bad; that’s the only way I could believe such an incompetent person could be made High Fist, even if he was able to purchase a high ranking due to nobility. The guy couldn’t even sit a horse!
idlefun@35 – I agree that the soldiers were broken, but I would like to believe that they should have been aware that in regards to a force that just slaughtered the remnants of the Seventh and that attempted to crucify Coltaine and deny the release of his soul to the crows, surrendering to such a force and trusting to their good will was suicide. And that’s exactly what it ended up being.
shalter@42 – That is a good point, and that maybe explains the captains. But, our view of the Malazan army has shown that Sergeants and Corporals are known to question orders that they think are unwise or just plain stupid, and I would have liked to delude myself into thinking that maybe some of those capable officers still survived Pormqual’s selection of inferior captains. I guess I just find it sad that the army seemed to capitulate so easily…
So, I have a “newbie” type question for the group, and I don’t know if the reader is supposed to arrive at this question at this point of the series (and would thus be granted with a “Read And Find Out” response), or if I just missed something, or if Erikson is doing a little revisionist writing between GotM and DG. Maybe you Malzan veterans can clarify this for me, or just respond with something like a “Keep on reading. You’ll see…” type answer:
Communication (either at the macro level of Empress to army, or Seventh Army to Ninth Army; or at the micro level of Fist to Squad 9 Sergeant) seemed to be incredibly limited and thus a major factor in how battles were addressed and the plot would unfold in GotM. Wasn’t Whiskeyjack’s revelation of the “bony communication device” near the end of GotM treated as a major factor in the success of the Malazan Army’s various campaigns?
So, why do we see here in the battle between Kalam and the Claw that mages can basically communicate with one another over long distances (I think the text stated it as “plucking the strand” or something like that, right before Kalam killed the Claw and then spoke to Topper)? If communication between mages is so easy, why then wouldn’t every High Fist, Fist, Captain and Sergeant have at least one mage who was capable of communicating via this method? If they could do this, why then wasn’t Laseen (or Tavore) in immediate contact with Pormqual about the ways in which to properly defend Aren and carry out the Seven Cities campaign (for instance, a simple order like “Do everything in your power to aid Coltaine!)?
And yes, the warrens were crowded by D’ivers and Soletaken, but that clears up when the Seventh is about to cross that river where Sormo dies (I forget the name of the place and battle). Also, I know that the Wickans could do it with one another, but I got the impression they were using the older magic that came from within, to do this.
Anyway, did I miss something? Was this explained somewhere where I just happened to gloss over it? Or, am I and other first time readers supposed to be asking these questions, with a RAFO as the answer? If you Malazan veterans could help me out, I’d appreciate it. Thanks!
Maniak @44: I don’t have an answer for you, other than that perhaps such sorcerous communication isn’t as easy as you think it might be. For example, Claw mages being able to readily communicate with each other might be a result of rigorous training together.
Regardless, we never hear about the “bone phones” from GotM ever again…
KiManiak @@@@@ 43:
I wonder if perhaps too much emphasis is placed on this idea that the Malazan soldiers were allowed to think for themselves. I don’t think that could really have worked for an army on a large scale. There have to be times when an officer gives orders and these are obeyed without every soldier deciding to question them. An army could never function otherwise. I find it more likely that the ‘thinking’ would take place on a smaller scale, possibly a squad level but I don’t really see blatantly disobeying direct orders on this kind of level as something that could have happened very often or casually. And, as has already been suggested, I doubt Pormqual has encouraged this on any level. So, if the soldiers have been stuck with him for some time (do we have any idea about this?), I can believe that he has succeeded in getting rid of any sense of initiative in his soldiers.
Also, I get the impression this all takes place rather quickly. If anyone was going to countermand Pormqual’s order to disarm they would have had to do so almost as soon as that order was given because if too many soldiers had obeyed then their chance of getting out of there was probably lost. I can believe that no-one plucked up the courage/initiative to disobey Pormqual before their chance was lost. Plus, one soldier deciding to disobey would gain nothing, they would have to believe that others would stand with them and obey their orders. Perhaps everyone wanted someone else to make the first move and they just waited too long. Once they were disarmed I suppose there was nothing they could do (because the part that I have trouble believing is that 10,000 soldiers quietly allowed themselves to be crucified no matter how ‘broken’ they were).
Well, those are my theories anyway. They work for me. :)
Saltman Z @@@@@ 33
I still think that Grub is the reincarnation of Coltaine, so of course he would have those memories.
This line stood out to me, it spoke volumns.
“The historiam squeezed his eyes shut. It had become a day to hold in his arms broken figjres. But who will hold me!”
@night owl
You are asking for spoilers, so you’ll get them. ;)
Coltaine was a Wickan. Wickan souls only get transfered to other Wickans. The many crows carried Coltaine’s Soul to another Wickan babe about to be born.
There is a young Wickan Leader, Temul, who survived the Chain of Dogs, thanks to Duiker, and who will continue to lead the Wickan part of the 14th Army in HoC. It is stated in later books that this Temul will teach the young new Coltaine spirited Wickan child into the arts of warfare, when he is old.
Grub is not the reincarnation of Coltaine, but in an entire other league. Please trust me on that, because Grub is featuring in later books as Grub.
Edit: and please believe me, because I am not going to give spoilers from The Crippled God here, which is the book where we really learn about the origins of Grub.
KiManiak: There are a few GotM-isms around that may have been discarded in the interval between the writing of GotM and DG. The communication could be one of them. Conceivable also that the greater the distance the more difficult the communication. I never really stopped to think about it actually. It’s very well possible that only certain people could do it. Perhaps a particular warren or ability.
KiManiak:We’ll see lots of ways to communicate. For example, Kalam gives Quick Ben a call from the ship. Sometimes, things like the Soletaken “muck” up the warrens making communication difficult.
As Fiddler says, we don’t hear about the “bone phone” again. It was unusual in that it allowed two non-mages to communicate.
Note that the claw and Topper were both mages in the “pluck the strand” comment.
So, mages being able to communicate — common except under unusual circumstances.
Mages communicating with non-mages — seems to require pre-arrangement, like Kalam and QB.
Night Owl @47:
You are mistaken. Coltaine is indeed reborn as Fiddler says in 48, but the child is NOT Grub. I won’t go any further as you’ll find out who the reborn Coltaine is in another book.
Fiddler @48 :
Hey, thanks for unhooking my fixed brain from Grub being Coltaine, didn’t know/forgot that a Wicken soul only goes to another Wicken.
I’ve read the entire series, except TCG, but it’s been years and I’ve forgotten more than I remember. Glad for this reread, it really is great for clearing up my questions and assumptions.
Amanda and KiManiak,
Like you, I initially thought the glimpse we had here of Laseen provided an insight into her character contrary to impressions I had had of her from snippets earlier in the books. For the longest time as I progressed through the series, I was willing to cut her some slack because this conversation with Kalam made me think she was acting in what she thought was best for the empire. But I now think the actual evidence in all the Erikson and Esslemont books (excluding tCG and Stonewielder which I haven’t read yet) is pretty conclusive: she is the equal of Pormqual in incompetence, and the fundamental motive behind all her actions is her personal power.
Alison @53: Interesting, because I see her as trying to do right by the Empire, but going about it fairly incompentently.
way back, someone mentioned being excited for Fiddler’s second tour of duty. all i can say about the second tour is… dear gods… what a tour…
anyhow, what i wanted to address is the sorcerous communication issues. like others have said, communication between mages is one thing, and for communication between mages and non-mages things can get hairy. the bone phones have been adequately addressed – consider them a GotM-ism.
but looking at warrens as ready vehicles for sorcerous communication is perhaps a bit optimistic. warrens can be unpredictable and their effects are variable depending on which warren it is and who it is that is using it. for example, it’s is unlikely that a mage of telas could send a message to his fist or captain in the midst of a fight. remember kulp’s pithy reply to duikers question about what warren he uses? there’s no warren of boat repair, just as there is no warren of communication.
certain types of magic are better suited to communication, such as the spirit magic that nether is able to send a knowing to coltaine with, or the warren of hood, that allows topper to speak out of a dead claws mouth. but for the most part, sending messages via magic is a difficult and tricky endeavour.
re 3 dragons..
we find out later (as in TCG later) that dragons, like bad news, tend to come in threes (and there is even a reason…)
I always assumed it was a different one, but it is hard to have a non-spoiler conversation about who it is…
I, too, found it hard to believe that 10,000 trained *Malazan* soldiers would simply surrender their weapons under the circumstances (after the Chain and witnessing Coltaine’s Fall).
To Erikson’s credit, Dom himself later expresses some surprise that the soldiers actually surrendered as ordered.
Surely among these 10,000 there were a few who would resist such orders. For example, a Malazan army of this size must have had a company of sappers. Where did you last see sappers surrender all of their munitions, even when ordered?
With all the praise we hear for the discipline/obedience of the Malazan soldiers, remember the few examples we’ve had until now: a new captain to the Bridgeburners would tend to have a nasty fatal accident if the troups didn’t trust him; the Seveth’s sappers continually disobeyed Coltaine’s orders and practically did what they thought best; Blistig directly disobeyed Pormqual when he decided to stay in Aren at the end.
I’m simply amazed that when Dom executed Pormqual, there wasn’t some Malazan soldier that would lead others to strike back.
Alisonwonderland@53, Saltman Z@54: I read Laseen in yet another way. I would say solo she’s very competent but she’s not very good at assessing other people’s point of view. So a master assassin but a poor Empress. I think her mindset resonates strongly with Kalam which is how she convinced him to abandon his quest to kill her in these last couple of chapters. The big difference I see between Laseen and Kalam is that Kalam has people like Quick Ben and WhiskeyJack expanding his worldview (and picking his targets) and Laseen has no one.
Regarding communications:
Remember that it’s been many months since the rebellion has started. The story of the Chain of Dogs has made headline news around the world, even all the way to Genabackis. I think that we can assume Laseen knows what’s been going on in this continent.
Why, then, is the only action we see the Empire take through all these months is to recruit a new army to sail to Seven Cities? As several characters have commented, a competent High Fist would have already crushed the rebellion (preferably before it had even started). The very fact that this has been going on for so long (not to mention the story of the Chain) should be enough to demonstrate Pormqual’s incompetence.
A lack of magical communication ability (as was the case for some of the time due to the Soletaken/D’ivers) doesn’t explain the continued autonomy given to Pormqual/Rel through months of open rebellion.
The only explanation I can think of is that Rel has been intercepting such communications from the capital, but I would still have expected to see Tavore much earlier on the scene (even with just a small force) in order to take command from Pormqual (possibly to give command to Nok).
Picking up Crippled God today!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I find Laseen a very interesting character whose actions have big consequences but we get frustratingly little insight into her. My take is that she is genuinely committed to the Empire but because she came to the throne through betrayal she expects the same to happen to her and therefore can trust no one. Hence the culling of the old guard and the reluctance to promote competent people to positions of power. It’s telling that Coltaine, one of the empire’s best generals, was only given a command out of desperation. I always got a sense of loneliness or isolation about her.
Toster @@@@@ 13 and Dreamwolf @@@@@22: I too found (later) an evil associate of Mael — who I really, really, like – to be disquieting.
Toster @@@@@13, djk1978 @@@@@20 & thomstel @@@@@26: I, too, thought that it was List’s guide. I think that you go to the God of Death (a la Ganoes at the Gate), rather than he come to you.
SaltMan Z @@@@@33: Thanks for connections.
KiManiiak @@@@@ 41 & 43: Yeah, I posted something about that last week. Not one of the 10,000 took the opportunity to think? DayDreamer @@@@@46: Still, not one of 10,000? (Well, Blistig, sort of.) Amir @@@@@ 58: I totally agree.
Dragos2014@@@@@ 63: WTF? Please post advertisements elsewhere.
It was unclear to me why Fiddler would want to re-up with Tavore rather than return to the Bridgeburners. Can anyone help me with that?
Thanks, GOS
Good Old Satan, I guess it might depend on the timeline and how the end of this book fits with the events of the next. What’s the state of play on Genabackis and what does Fiddler know?
He also might feel personally involved with 7 Cities and wants to help with the effort to retake it.
Saltman Z @54; Amir @59; Idlefun @62
Let us take a few of her actions that had profound effects on the empire, and see if we can discern any motive other than a grab for power or consolidation of personal power:
– attempted assassination of Dassem Ultor;
– assassination of Kellanved and Dancer;
– demotion of Whiskeyjack (isn’t he lucky he wasn’t killed!) from army commander to Sergeant;
– culling of non-Claw mages throughout the empire (the effects of this are seen more clearly in the Esslemont books);
– killing off the Bridgeburners;
– killing off the Talons;
– inaction in the face of the Seven Cities rebellion;
– transformation of the heroes of the Chain of Dogs into villains and reward of the rebels with positions of high power;
– and so on.
I would really like to know how any of this can possibly be in the interest of the empire.
Idlefun @65: I always felt that it was more of a Band of Brothers type relationship; one not easily put aside. M’gosh, he’s a “Bridgeburner” (I’m avoiding caps). Given how they earned the name, its hard to see how he could just choose to be something else (some other well-earned named something).
SaltmanZ@45, djk1978@49 and Shalter@50 – re: communication – Thanks for the various responses guys (and gals, if applicable). I’m having a similar feeling to what I think Amanda described once or twice: Erikson does such a great job of inserting so much into his story that you could easily adopt the habit of dissecting any/every little thing, thinking that there may be more to it. I factored in Whiskeyjack’s statement of the “bone phone” as part of how the Malazan army was able to be so effective, and then compared that to the ability of the Claw mages to easily communicate with one another, and thought that Erikson had inserted/dropped some major revelation type “bomb” that I may have glossed over/missed. The man is so good in his writing, that its easy for the reader to want to dissect any inconsistency and potentially see it as some type of major clue or hint.
Daydreamer@46 – Those are good points. I definitely hear you on the short amount of time that any soldier/officer could have acted to resist Pormqual’s insane order. I admit, part of me just wishes that someone would have stood against Pormqual’s commands; but its plausible that the circumstances didn’t allow for such.
I do agree that I find it highly doubtful that 10,000 soldiers would allow themselves to be crucified. I’d rather fight and have someone slay me in battle than allow them to hang me from a cross (Well, the fantasy-story-version of me would anyway. The real life version would probably be in shock). On a similar note…
Amir@58 brings up a good point about the sappers in Pormqual’s army; surely they didn’t go out without a fight?! A couple of shapers or clusters (or whatever) to take out some of the enemy as well as themselves in the bargain, seems appropriate. Maybe Pormqual didn’t have sappers in his army due to their renegade and ingenuitive natures? Maybe he had sappers that lacked imagination and that rebellious streak (although, would they still be sappers if that were so)?
Alison@53 and Saltman@54 – Hmm. Well, as I read the remaining novels, I’ll try not to view Laseen in any particular way/with any particular bias, and see how I interpret her actions.
Toster@55 – I think you may be referring to my comments @15; I’m looking forward to Fiddler’s second tour. I’ve been warned that it may be perplexing, but ultimately it will be “brilliantly done.” I’m really looking forward to it. Erikson has created a number of interesting and compelling characters!
As for the communication thing: So my opinion of the warrens is that they are both a conduit/facilitator of “magical” forces (including the ability to transport sound waves through them) as well as an “otherworldly” realm, along with having other potential characteristics that we have not been exposed to yet as of DG. As far as your points about communication, I think they are good ones.
However just based on the information we are given in Chapters 22-23 alone, it seems that mages are able to communicate with one another via accessing their warrens (dead Claw/Kalam & Topper, Topper & Laseen) or such that it makes me want to challenge the statement that its unpredictable (although I’m sure your opinion is based upon multiple book experience vs. my opinion based solely on 2 chapters).
I’m more inclined to believe that Erikson was still developing his warren/magic system and refined it in future novels. Which doesn’t bother me; I just have to not jump on every little detail or inconsistency and think there is a larger plot-related hint associated with it, just as I remarked above. Still, thanks for the clarification; I have to say that a number of you Malazan vets are rather helpful and tolerant of all of us first-timers. I envy you all just having one more book to go before finding out how the series resolves itself…
Amir@60 – I’m with you. I think my questions about communication were similar to your points (although you stated the points far more eloquently than I). Yeah, why didn’t Tavore travel (via warren, or “Warren” in this case) to take over from Pormqual while the bulk of her forces were en route via boat?
HArai@59, idlefun@62 & Allison@66 – I appreciate your perspectives of and points regarding Laseen. She’s definitely a character that I will imbue with multiple layers (and no quick and easy labels) as I continue to read on.
@@@@@ 64. Good Old Satan
I think this is “generally” true, however, there are specific instances in later books where Hood does go to retrieve a specific soul. I think it is considered an honor if Hood himself comes to collect you. So, while your statement is true in most cases, it is not true in all cases.
I’ll join later for some actual comments, in the meantime I’ve been allowed to gloat ;)
Maybe someone remembers that I talked about a couple of big revelations I had that led me to guess the “Big Picture”. I have written the scheme down and sent it to Erikson… who was impressed (and I was then impressed that he was).
So I’ve been smug about the awesomeness of this big picture, AND the gratification that Erikson sent my way:
So go ahead, tell ’em you nailed it and that I confirmed that you did so.
And it seems I nailed it so well that Erikson has asked me to not reveal anything about it. As I said to him, I’m faithful and even went to edit out those hints in this reread that I already dropped, unknowing of their real significance. So, sorry, can’t reveal anything about this, beside the fact it’s awesome and embraces something that seems to go beyond the scope even of The Crippled God (meaning the last book).
I’m not even going to give hints, because to my eyes the “secret” is vulnerable. Erikson said publicly that the “cipher” for the series is contained in Toll the Hounds. It seems that is the cipher I nailed, and I did without reading that book (and without reading spoilers about it).
Am I a wonder? Nope. Just helped by a number of concurrences along the way (I’ve been stepping around the series for a few years even if still only halfway through MT in actual progress).
But there’s an aspect I want to highlight: I’ve proven that there’s more than one Path (of Hands) leading to this cipher. I arrived to it from a whole different direction than the trail Erikson himself left in book 8 (like an industrious and diligent Iskaral Pust). The one I found is my own, and maybe many of you who have finished the series have it already, but still need to fully grasp it.
Moreover this fact that I had a vision of the structure without being even halfway through doesn’t diminish it, but enhances it from my point of view. As I said elsewhere it’s not a cheap crime fiction with no assassin. It’s not cheating. The solution isn’t to be found in book 10 or 8. It’s all along. Which also makes it so lucid.
Erikson doesn’t pull the hand or tricks you. The solution is there, and once you are aware of it, it gives back a lot of meaning, because it’s not dry.
…Witness?
Aba @70 or wherever
Dude, congrats ! Really !
But…is it just me or do you still don´t get it ? I am not into this for the scheme or the solution – I am into this for the ride.
I hope I never find the scheme or the solution to this cycle, because not doing so will give me more opportunities to reread and keep searching and keep enjoying.
So please, pretty please – whatever it is that you discovered – WHITE IT OUT if/when you post it here, because I don´t want to read it.
I could ask now whether you get my point, but I fear that would be purely a rhethorical question…
And no, I don´t want to witness. Quite the opposite, actually.
Alisonwonderland@66: So far as I can tell, all the available viewpoints indicate Kellanved and Dancer were ignoring the Empire in favour of their research into Ascendancy and the Azath, but they weren’t likely to just give it up either. Killing Kellanved and Dancer and taking up rule of the Empire can thus be seen as in the interests of the Empire from Laseen’s point of view. As for virtually everything else in the list you give, if you start from “Laseen ruling is good for the Empire” they all fall into place. Obviously Laseen holds this view. The thing is, lots of the characters we’re invited to identify with have viewpoints that start from “Laseen ruling is bad for the Empire”, and so we don’t agree with her actions. I can’t really think of any unbiased viewpoints we’re given though.
Alisonwonderlan @66
I think you’ve meant your reply to HArai @59 and not to me :-)
My own thought regarding Laseen is that I still don’t get her real motivations. It’s possible that she actually believes her actions to be in the best interest of the empire. This does not preclude her own ambition and desire for personal power, which makes her a more realistic and believeable character.
But I never got from Laseen the vibe of “I will rule this sector or see it burned to ashes around me” (+2 points for identifying the quote), as is the case, for example, with Kallor.
So, yeah, she’s into personal power (what politician isn’t?) and is quite good at eliminating potential rivals (and Daseem was a potential rival. Laseen was the official regent, and he had the support of the army). The downside is that she’s left with running an empire with no competent commanders (including herself!).
I still think that she’s grossly incompetent as an empress based pretty much on what you listed (some of the items on your list are spoilers for future books!).
KiManiak @68:
I see the instant magic communciation of the Claw as something that needs to be set up in advance. That is, right before going out into the night to hunt their target, the Claws prepare weapons, poisons, equipment, etc. One of the preparation steps is for the mages to “connect” with the other Claws in their Hand and with the Clawmaster. I would expect this “connection” to only last the coming battle.
And regarding Tavore, forget warrens. I would expect the following from Laseen: “Tavore, Seven Cities has been in rebellion for 4 months now and Coltaine is leading thousands of refugees across hostile country. Pormqual is obviously not doing anything and I haven’t heard from Nok for a while. This is bad PR for the empire. They are talking about this all over Genabackis for Hood’s sake. There’s a problem with the warrens, so get your ass in a boat, sail to Aren and straighten this shit out. We’ll recruit a new army to join you as soon as we can.”
HArai @@@@@ 72: I tend to agree with your assessment, but, …since reading NoK, I’ve been a little unsure about the whole Laseen “assassinates” Kel & Cot. I took away from that story that they manipulated events, timing, etc. to enable/ensure their ascendance. It seems that there is – generally – some dissatisfaction that she did what they wanted her to do.
Abalieno @@@@@ 70: Congratulations on your gloat. It seems, from my brief scan, that you have done so with relish. Please help here … other than the gloat, what did you intend to communicate with the post?
GOS @@@@@75
Abalieno @@@@@ 70: Congratulations on your gloat…other than the gloat, what did you intend to communicate with the post?
Nothing.
Let´s move on…
Abalieno @@@@@ 70
Wow, nice that your theory has been confirmed by mr. Erikson! I really didn’t thought it possible, but apparently you have catched some essential things quite early.
I know there are frustrations about your posts. Until now I refrained of joining that pro-contra discussion, although I had an opinion about it. For myself, just like everything in these series :-), my opinion isn’t black-white but grey. I switch between finding them interesting and boring because of longwindedness, and between agreeing with comments and feeling them to be (far) too harsh.
So, I don’t mind your posts, and I would recommend to people who don’t want to read them, to scroll further in stead of reading through it, get frustrated and write comments about it. I think nobody gets happy about that, and then we have to read both the post and the reaction :-)
But: I think people should be fair and set aside existing feelings to admit that you apparently did a good job (in stead of just asking ‘why let us know’. The way you expressed your exitement could be subject of discussion, but I understand why you wanted to let us know (I would be very exited as well).
I think many of us are curious to read your original message to mr. Erikson in about 5 years, or whenever we reach the end of the reread of tCG. In my opinion, until that time further discussion of it (like “This is a point/development/theme /… I predicted” versus “We don’t want to know that”) has no use because we’re talking about things none of us wishes to clarify, to avoid spoilers.
So, for now I just wish you much fun during the ride, you have some wonderful books waiting for you.
(ps. because I’ve already finished tCG I wouldn’t mind / would like reading your ideas now by PM, but I can understand it if you prefere to keep it for yourself now until the end…).
In regards to my comments I already policed myself: I let the discussion develop through the week and only join later when it dwindled down.
It seemed a good solution to me.
In regards to the scheme I’ve been asked to not reveal it, so I won’t. Privately or not. And it’s not like from now on I’ll keep repeating how I understood it and you didn’t. It was just a message and the matter is closed as far as I’m concerned.
Other than the gloat, for you, the post means there’s a “certain something” that structures the series and that is there all along. I’m pointing out that a scheme exists and can be mapped. Not sure about you, but I know that as a reader this possibility would be important to me.
Re: 78
And imagine that, … I, in my stupendous ignorance, have managed to enjoy 9 books thusfar nonetheless!
Go figure.
Anyway, enough of all that. Back to the book.
I’m curious to know what others think of Mappo refusing to give Icarium to the Azath. On the the one hand the two are incredibly likeable, sympathetic and honourable characters but the danger that Icarium presents cannot be dismissed. As Mappo admits, he held back out of love for Icarium and a desire to not be alone or without a purpose in life. Can he be at all justified?
@@@@@ Amanda:
Plus with the flies we’ve come full circle, back to the opening scenes with Felisin, no?
Just adding my voice to the chorus of ‘I hate Mallick Rel!’
Duiker deserved so much better *cries*
I loved the wrap-up scene at the end of chapter 23. I didn’t get why Fid didn’t want to rejoin the other Bridgeburners and go fight the Pannion Seers. Does that get explained later on, or did I just miss it here? I see there’s been a bit of discussion on the topic, but no answer so far?!
KiManiak @@@@@15: I had the same reaction to the breaking of Duiker’s bottle. I even thought it hadn’t worked!
Amir @@@@@74: Your take on Laseen’s orders to Tavore had me sniggering out loud!
Idlefun @80: I think Mappo can be justified, or rather explained. I think his not letting the Azath take Icarium might not have been the wisest thing in the grand scheme of things, but I do understand not wanting to lose a friend and even more not wanting to lose your purpose in life.
Mienke, as I mentioned above, I think Fiddler not rejoining the BB could be down to the events in MoI. Hard to discuss without spoilers so we can continue this in about 3 months or so:)
As for Mappo, maybe it’s an example of compassion versus cold eyed justice which is an important theme of the series.
I think that the Mappo/Icarium dilemma is similar to that story about Hitler: if you could go back in time, would you coldly kill Hitler as a child?
It brings back the problem of responsability and innocence. Icarium, with no memories, is not responsible of anything. The risk is there, but you’re condemning to eternal prison someone who’s innocent. The sacrifice surely isn’t fair, but maybe it is acceptable? These problems have no answer.
The other big problem here is that the “threat” is depending solely on what the Nameless Ones have given as the Truth. We’ve seen that things may be more complex and so I absolutely approve that Mappo is at least trying to delay a definitive solution and still seeks a better alternative.
Not sure I agree, Abalieno. A better anlaogy is to consider Icarium as a rabid dog – not the dogs fault but there is only one sensible solution (I actually feel bad typing that!).
Mappo has been manipulated by the Nameless Ones but there is a consensus that Icarium is a terrible danger. Gothos, his father, feels he should be neutralised. It seems that Mappo has done a good job of controlling Icarium for a long time and probably feels he can continue and imprisonment is unfair on Icarium but I think Mappo himself recognises these are rationalisations and his real reasons are more emotional or selfish. It’s a massive risk he is taking.
@57 and those before.
The Jaghut that appeared to Duiker was the same one that appeared as a guide to List. Go back and reread the section where List actually recieves the visions, and look at his circumstances and a lot starts to make sense.
Many many people in the malazan world are something simple and something far more *at the same time*.
What this reread especially shows, many things explicitly shown in later books are often revealed much much earlier, its just we don’t realise it unless we are actively looking.
Abalieno @84:
I agree with idelfun that the Hitler analogy is not really fair. Icarium is not an innocent child destined to be evil (such as Anakin destined to become Darth Vader).
Icarium’s situation is more a Dr. Jeckyll / Mr. Hyde scenario. He is a good and honorable person, quite likeable and a good friend. But sometimes, due to forces outside of his control (or knowledge!) he can become a monster for a short period of time.
Re: Fiddler re-enlisting
I’ve wondered this as well, especially with the free teleport that Shadowthrone is offering. It can’t be fear of being hung out for desertion, as Whiskeyjack, and likely Dujek, knew full well that he didn’t desert. The only other thing I can think of is some measure of guilt: Kalam, his friend, lit the fuse on Seven Cities. Having campaigned there before, perhaps he’s thinking that’s where he can do a lot of good, and can make up for Kalam’s actions in kick-starting the Whirlwind.
thomstel@88:
As you say, Fiddler has campaigned there before. Perhaps it is the lure of Raraku? Maybe he’s waiting for Kalam, as well. His enlisting in the Seven Cities campaign was a mystery to me too.
Abalieno:
Congrats on figuring out something that gives you satisfaction. Me…..I almost find plot incidental. It is the journey, as was said above. I love SE’s prose, his incredible characters, and his philosophical digressions. I think I could read about these characters forever. (And probably will!)
Abalieno- I’m in TtH right now, just started it. I’m paying lots of attention to each section and sometimes even rereading parts, just because I’ve heard that it is a “cipher” to the whole series. I hope to be done with my first full read in about 3 months or so, and after that, I would be interested in hearing your theory off-thread. For now, I am going to do my best to figure it out on my own, all the while enjoying the hell out of these books. And this reread.
@ab
i’m very interested in hearing what you’ve worked out. i’m wondering if it would be possible for you to send it to me on the ME forums. i know SE asked you to keep it private, but i’ve finished tCG, and i’ve got a very unified feeling toward this entire series so i’m very interested to see how close my understanding is to what you’ve come up with. my forum handle is Sinisdar Toste if you’re willing to send me a PM. as one who has gone the whole nine yards i’m thinking that SE wouldn’t mind, but if you don’t feel comfortable, or think you should consult with the big man, thats your prerogative and i’ll not begrudge you it.
@68 KiManiak – to address specifically the issue of tavore going by warren to remove pormqual from command:
1) she wields an otataral sword and traces of otataral have seeped into her bloodstream, rendering magic useless in proximity to her.
and this is kind of a spoiler, so
2) the empress may not know this, but mallick rel calls on elder power. even if tavore got there before mallick scarpered, he could have defeated her.
oh dear, white text has failed me. disregard my previous post if you are a new reader!
Congrats, Abalieno. Unlike some of the others I found your comments very interesting, although I don’t want to be spoiled either. Thanks for sharing!
Anyway, I always felt Fiddler re-enlisted because retaking Seven Cities was a cause he believed in. He had to weather the Whirlwind, and was witness to the horrors its followers inflicted upon the foreigners in their lands. Even without being a part of the Chain, I can see why he would want to commit himself to Tavore’s new army.
Toster,
The easiest way is to just sign up to the site and then you’ll be able to edit your posts. Plus, you’ll join the “cool” gray club :-) We’ll teach you the secret handshake and everything!
well here we are, but i had to register under a different email coz apparently i joined under the name ‘lewdtherin’ years back when i was on here because of WoT. unfortunately that means i can’t edit my post -_-
Toster:
LOL. I like your old nom de plume. *chuckles*
Dragos, your comment is gone. Please don’t try that again.
Some comments on the first chapter this week.
I’ve said before this particular section of ninja combat with Kalam was one of the problematic ones from my point of view. One reason is again because it creates a certain contrast with the grasping of what is perceived as realism. So after the poignancy and the emotional punch of the Chain of Dogs, we get these ninja battles and again it feels that Erikson tiptoes on the edge. What can be a triumph may as well become a disaster two pages later.
It’s surely a concession to the spectacular and a kind of payoff that Erikson wants to offer (I complained about similar things at the end of GotM). A moment to let the bridles loose and have some badass fun, but it can be problematic in the contrast it creates and how it unbalances and attacks the fourth wall.
In this case I also see a problem in the narrative tension: we see Kalam using some ninja skills that weren’t used before, and same for the Claws, their skills are unknown. We see a battle where both ends are outside the grasp of the reader, uncharted. So a difficulty in connecting to them, or feeling detached while reading them. Stuff happens, it’s cool, but it doesn’t seem to offer more than that. It goes back on the level of fantasy trope used without an interesting twist. The Japanese have a great term to define the whole thing: fanservice.
The difficult part is how these very different PoVs alternate. We go from the fanservice of Kalam’s scene to the mysterious mythology of Fiddler & Co. Then back to the Chain of Dogs for some high drama. Narrative tone changes hugely. It’s hard to rebalance and adjust. Some huge jumps to make in relatively few pages. As if zapping between three movies that have almost nothing in common.
About the three dragons in the Azath warrens I wonder how they entered and made use of this warren. At this point it seems that the Azath are placed at a higher point in regards to the mythology, some sort of overall supervising entity. But we’ve also seen that the Azath itself is a prison and a threat to any form of power that approaches it. So why three dragons are allowed entry and use of the warren as if part of a normal activity?
The Chain of Dogs PoV is strong as always. The only nitpicking would be, as others have noted, to make the surrender a bit more solid since it appears as a weaker link of the chain of events. I think the scene with Duiker and the horse is done very well. It’s a moment of sudden realization (and pain for the reader). There’s a sense of certainty in the scene. Hope that is severed out, encircled by Korbolo Dom’s army. So that scene seals it perfectly. A moment of total helplessness as all the following events become immutable.
Had to check the following books to see when Mallick Rel comes back. It seems not for a long while. I want to know more and forgot about this part of the book. I guess a slight spoiler: despite the central role he had in this book he seems completely absent from House of Chains. Where has he gone?
Also wondering if anyone considered Moby “taken” by the Azath as a potential risk. Think for example if the door did open to Fiddler or Apsalar. That would mean that they tried without knowing the risk. In a moment salvation fused with damnation, and they were completely oblivious to the possibility…
(and still admiration for everything Bill brought out of the Kalam scene. If someone is curious about my scheme Bill goes rather close to it when he talks about “ripples”… Just link it to the end of Fiddler’s PoV in this same chapter. A world within a world, Kalam’s intrusion to that ecosystem under the docks is like that of an alien, like the Crippled God to this world.)
@Abalieno
It is a little strenous that you tend to say “the reader” when you mean yourself. You may not like things that were not explained to you in detail beforehand. Other people do not seem to have this problem.
Edited out a couple because they were redundant, but while searching I noticed Amanda:
And Bill:
I mean, every form of analysis will lead to generalizations. It’s a bit complicated to avoid that language just because it rubs the wrong way certain… readers.
Abalieno@99:
…we see Kalam using some ninja skills that weren’t used before, and same for the Claws, their skills are unknown. We see a battle where both ends are outside the grasp of the reader, uncharted.
How else are we going to find out what each is capable of? Would you a prefer a “list of skills” for each character, so that we can then feel comfortable when such skills are manifest?
In real life, I am surprised daily by what some people can and will do! (Much of it atrocious) And in Book, I prefer SE’s method of introducing skills and viewpoints and layers of characters by showing, not telling…..to see a character manifest in situ some new level of power. This is how SE teaches us about these characters. We are only in Book 2 here….there is much more we will be shown without a proper introduction.
As for skipping from thread to thread with the attendant emotional push and pull….that is part of the real power of these books to tug our hearts. I find the incongruity most realistic. How can the world keep turning, when such tragedy is unfolding elsewhere? If you’ve ever lost a loved one, you will know…..It just keeps on keeping on, despite how your personal world has been rocked. Indifference.
Abalieno, I think like Kalam you’ll find yourself seriously outnumbered on this one. Like Tektonica, I really enjoy this metohod of discovering a character’s traits and skills. Remember that Kalam has already fought off a D’ivers, dispatched a band of rebels in seconds, he’s famous enough for Keneb to know the name and Pearl rates him the finest Claw of all time. Were you really that surprised at his ability? Wait until you see him really stretch himself!
I think the term fanservice is unfair. How do you distinguish between gratuitous action and a thrilling description of an important event? Is every fight scene or display of magic fanservice? This is a novel set in the Malazan world, SE could have chosen to write about the struggles of life in a Falari fishing village but chose instead a tale of assassins, dragons and gods. The odd smackdown is to be expected.
As for Mallick Rel, his whole approach is to manipulate events behind the scenes and only show himself when the dust settles, as in this book.
@Abalieno
The problem with generalizations is that they only make sense if it is actually conceivable that a lot of people will share the point you make. By now you could have realized, that most people here actually like the way Erikson introduces things without warning.
@Abalieno:
Moby is not “taken” by the Azath. His role is more of a partnership. If you recall from NoK, the danger in approaching the Azath isn’t at the door. The danger is if you wander off the path.
duplicate post due to spam eaters.
I’m not writing those comments because I intend to convince anyone. Just my feedback.
And yep, I feel a certain gratuitousness in that scene (and in the fact that Fiddler received some munitions for some more fanservice). And same for certain details in the end of GotM that for me were unnecessary and trying too hard.
I like a lot these things Erikson attempts in the way he attempts them. So it’s not like I’m suggesting that the alternation of the scenes and mixing of tones shouldn’t be there. But from my point of view all those parts I underlined in the reread didn’t have a perfect execution and so for me the book had certain flaws (or dissonance, imbalance in execution, certain parts working better, others less).
Which is why DG is not my favorite in the series as for many other readers. The execution improved a lot on most aspects compared to GotM, still has certain problems keeping a certain tension and suspension of disbelief.
Just voicing opinions I had for a couple of years.
Abalieno, opinions are fine (and welcome). I think people are just finding some affront in that the opinions tend to be stated as matters of fact. Also, the use of words with negative connotations like fanservice does not tend to endear. You’re post at 107 was written much more cleanly with respect to that.
It’s Tuesday:
and
Irene or Chris:Are the spam filters set extra high today? I’ve had three posts eaten today.
Trying without using the quote function:
It is Tuesday, so here is one from 24,
“Ah, glad to see I’ve not lost my charm…”
and one from the end,
“Crows. Crows, so many crows—”
“What I am is hungry. Who’s going to prepare meals now that Servant is gone?”
“You are, of course.”
She flew into a spitting rage.
Somewhere in this re-read, I think it may have been in previous chapters we were (not me since I just started posting) discussing whether or not the “evil” characters like Dom and Rel had a good side. The goddess Poliel was another mentioned that had no purpose for good. Reading further in the series leads me to conclude that this is incorrect. I’ll leave it at that for now.
In another question. I’m currently nearing completion of the Bonehunters. This re-read index suggest that Return of the Crimson Guard should come next. I’ve elsewhere heard that Reaper’s Gale makes more sense. So Malazan veterans, which book should I read next? I have both of them waiting.
@113
This re-read is awesome, but flawed in the reading order.
The books should be read in publication date, IMO.
I think that it makes no difference at all whether you read RotCG directly after the Bonehunters or after Reapers Gale, or even later. It influences some events in Toll the Hounds (but only to a minor extend) so best read it before that.
Thanks. I will probably read Reaper’s Gale first then. I read RotCG once before I understood where it fit in so I have some memory of what happens in it. RG is new to me so I’m more eager to read it. But I’ll read both before TtH.
djk1978@113/Edgewalker
There is certainly long-running debate on reading order. I just thought I’d clarify that this reading order is not our own, but is directly from Steven and Cam as to how they believe the series is best read. Mileage will vary . . .
Thanks Bill. Author’s recommendation is something to think of. Perhaps I will reconsider…
I still have 200 pages to decide.
@shalter. It’s variable but they’re always set somewhat high. (Not really a way around that. There’s an ocean of genuine spam it keeps out.) Your comments should be published now, though.
Thanks Chris
Re RotCG and RG: They both follow on from TBH and both lead in to TtH, but have no real interaction with each other. So the order doesn’t matter so much as that you read them back-to-back.
I’ve only read these last few chapters twice as they really get to me. :(
There’s a lot of stuff in here to talk about so here’s a few things that may or may not help.
Jhistal – High Priest of Mael (an elder god for whom blood sacrifice is the general offering) and an elder word for Destriant – one for the filing cabinet – you’ll see that word in the next book. It’s also a Falari word which is why Kalam wasn’t familiar with it.
This makes him pretty powerful and he’s probably “nudged” Pormqual for quite a while – did Pormqual empty the treasury of his own accord or was MR helping him? The boxes had his own personal seal on them so it doesn’t seem that he was doing it for the good of the Empress.
I believe that it’s possible Mallick Rell’s powers also played a part in the soldiers of Aren not doing anything to help – it makes sense if you think of it that way.
The Jaghut face Duiker see’s – List’s ghost – and the same Jaghut who has been following the Chain – and let’s be honest, if you’re dying which Jaghut is going to come to you? ;)
Kalam and the ninja skills – we’ve known about his potential from GotM – when Tattersail first sees him she thinks :
“The man was big, bearish, but she remembered his dangerous glide past her. Snake indeed, the man’s a killer, a soldier who’s reached the next level in the art of murder. Not just a job any more, this man likes it.”
As has been said before – there’s been plenty of fore-shadowing that he’s one bad-ass killer.
Regarding the suit of armour and who is inside it (from previous chapters) it’s not really important at this point, but we do get to work out who it is in later books and when we get there it will be obvious.
Laseen and Dassem Ultor – yes it was to avoid civil war, but I’m also damned sure she knew that DU would have beaten her ass into first place – he was really popular with the army etc, so she knew that she had to get rid of him – serving the empire to avoid civil war? I don’t think so.
More later – work now. :)
Hetan@122: Just to illustrate the point of view: If you’ve already decided Kellanved and Dancer need to be removed, it’s not a stretch to decide Dassem needs to go too. The man has serious and direct personal issues with Hood. It’s not exactly a great outlook for an empire to have an emperor feuding with the god of Death :)
Amazing how behind one can get with too much work, business travel and a really nasty bout of the flu. Finally caught up on one reread!
Belated welcome to all to all the newcomers since I last commented.
Congrats to Aba, I’m happy for you to have managed to decipher whatever it is you needed out of this story. Like others I’m more into story and Erikson’s amazing writing style but to each his own.
Way late for the poll but chain of dogs would be my favorite plotline closely followed by Mappo & Icarium.
Regarding Mappo keeping Icarium out of the Azath – I agree with someone (sorry speed read through the last 5 posts so can’t quite keep track of who said what) that his reasons are more emotional than anything. Remember, the characters are all leary of the Azath and see it as a prison at the very least and generally something not too savory, he also probably doesn’t know at the time that Gothos is Icarium’s father so he just wants to keep his friend safe. As we will see as the series unfolds, it really is not just about duty for Mappo, Icarium is his BFF.
Re Laseen: yeah, hmmm I have to admit this scene with her and Kalam made me think she might have some deeper plans than initially obvious (even though I didn’t find all her arguments convincing for much of the reasons people have already mentioned above) but well as the series has gone on (have not yet read the Crippled God, just don’t have the block of time necessary to properly concentrate on it …. grrrr) any further redeeming qualities have escaped me so far.
Right, enough wall’o’text for now – on to the non-spoiler review.
Hetan@122:
Somehow I missed this post of yours. Thank you for clarifying some thoughts I’ve had. I’ve suspected Rel was influencing Pormqual (perhaps via his warren). Your observation that he might have been influencing the whole army in Aren makes me feel a bit more sympathetic to their actions there.
Agree about the Jaghut Duiker sees….makes more sense than other guesses.
Agree there’s plenty of foreshadowing of Kalam’s skillz. Thanks for the quotes.
Still haven’t worked out whose in the armor :-(
Laseen’s reasons for taking out Kellenved, Dancer and Dasem Ultor seem entirely selfish to me….a classic power grab. She may have deluded herself into thinking that Kellenved was nuts and absent and needed to be replaced, but her paranoid actions (killing off the competent leaders), bungling of this war, and Pale and Darujhustan, and choice of “advisors”, seems pretty destructive. Perhaps she’s avoided an overt civil war, but there may be growing unrest in the troops.
Hi Lost! Nice to see you here again. Sorry about the heavy work schedule ;-( and especially the flu!!
Tektonica@125: One problem with being a master assassin: Killing people tends to sound like a good idea/quick solution. “If all you have is a hammer…” and all that :)
Finished reading the chapter.
On a reread the final confrontation with Laseen appears more solid. On my first read I remember I was raging against that scene. This because GotM ended with a big WTF, since a number of parts didn’t make sense, then the reveal of Shadowthrone/Kellanved relationship in the middle of DG made lots of parts realign and make sense (like the reason of the enmity toward Laseen, or the purpose with Sorry’s possession), but then it all crumbled again when Laseen justified what happened in Genabackis (in particular that the Bridgeburners demise was not part of the plan). Suddenly what was realigned got screwed again, and right at the end of the book.
On a reread I checked the consistency of certain parts in the light of how they are restructured later, and, aside minor details, the scheme holds together better. One of the weaker links is Tayschrenn’s behavior in GotM and how he directly opposed the Bridgeburners and Dujek (and Whiskeyjack). Laseen here says that Tay was “misguided”. Specifically because of Sorry (but the matter is more complicated, and so more justified too). The behavior is more plausible since in GotM reread it was shown how Lorn (the adjunct) directly opposed Tay’s plans as soon she arrived (“Dujek is not our enemy”). So traces of Tayschrenn being misguided were already present in GotM, meaning the plot works and it’s not simply clumsily retconned in DG (which is the main worry: the plot being folded and rewritten outside its original intent).
It’s instead a bit more complicated Whiskeyjack place in this picture. That’s a discussion for MoI, I guess, but there seem to be evidence that while Laseen didn’t want the Bridgeburners and Dujek dead, she DID want WJ dead (and for a good reason since Kalam’s plan was precisely to kill Laseen and then “force” WJ on the throne).
The other aspect of the encounter also works well, imho. Meaning the actual confrontation and the fact that Kalam accepts all that Laseen is saying and decides to “retreat”. There are a number of intervening aspects, including the fact that Kalam suddenly “suffers” for responsibility: Minala. I think that’s not a small factor. It’s not anymore Kalam versus the world with nothing to lose. Meeting up with Minala and what she said to him right before entering the room probably had an effect. It put an unexpected restraint.
Also completely forgot the fact that Gothos confirms plainly that the Azath Boys are those who destroyed a village to put the blame on Icarium (it wasn’t even an incident?).
It should also pointed out that Kalam’s “Again and again we cling to the foolish belief that simple solutions exist” is linked to Felisin thinking along the same lines, about killing her sister and basically solving all the world’s problem with that. In this case, though, the journey isn’t over yet.
Minor complaint about the 1300 children. Another baffling number thrown that has the effect of not being just baffling but crack a bit the plausibility.
@Abalieno:
Kalam doesn’t openly contradict what she says. But, when he says:
It seems fairly clear that he does not completely accept everything she says. He is merely willing to let her continue.When you say:
Not sure what is baffling. 1300 is the number of children whom Korbolo Dom crucified. Apt rescued them and gave them into Shadowthrone’s keeping. Apt rescuesd them as she felt that Kalam wanted them to be rescued but lacked the resources to do it himself. Shadowthrone is completing the circle here in returning the responsibility to Kalam.
The crack in plausibility is about Minala being capable of dealing with 1300 children.
And I don’t think that Kalam believes everything, it’s just that he finds a Laseen he didn’t expect to find, and it felt “heartfelt” enough for him to have his enmity defused, mixed with the other factors.
@Abalieno:It’s Shadowthrone making the statement. He has a tendency for grand statements. His statement seems implausible, but he himself is implausible–thus, in a way, it ends up enhancing the plausibility (at least to me).
Huh? Thought I had replied to that. Anyway, what I said was that it seems that Minala actually deals with all those children. Or that’s what I guessed in HoC. So it didn’t seem just a “statement”.
I have also noticed that no one has mentioned Aragan. It’s the guy in Mock’s Hold that Kalam and Fiddler meet briefly. He basically just says:
‘Aragan. And here I am only days away from a new posting …’
He seems just a random guy (and probably is), but it’s not the first time we’ve seen that name. He’s the same guy that recruits Sorry in Chapter 1 of GotM. Go look ;)
I wonder if Erikson used the name deliberately and if it’s just a casual link or if there’s a story about it…
@Abalieno:
IIRC, Aragan was originally meant as a Malazan career officer, without having much impact on the story, but showing up in most books. Kind of like an incrowd joke as in ‘Hey, there is Aragan again’.
He shows up at some point in Coral, at the end of MoI, as an Imperial representative.
In tBH he is the Fist commanding the Mock’s Hold Garrison, IIRC. After that we don’t see him again…
We know that Kalam is a very capable killer. There is no doubt about that. And I like him a lot. But yet even so, he has a lot of luck in this book. Once again he would be dead without Minala appearing on the horse and later again he would be dead once again if not for Apt and his other comrades appearing. Not to mention that of the various wounds not one of them was lethal. And everyone seems still to overestimate him. The characters in the book (Laseen and Topper) and also the readers it appears. Kalam would never have made it out of there without the help, even so Topper belives that. And while I can see that Dancer as a mortal would have considered twice before taking on Kalam in a duell I just can’t imagine him beeing the rope/Cotillon now, the god of assasins, having any problems dealing with him if he would just think it necessary. And certainly no fears.
I liked Shadowthrones appearance here a lot. He certainly is a very interesting character. I also was surprised seeing Fiddler wanting to go back to 7cities instead of staying with Kalam and/or returning to the Bridgeburners and helping them out.
So Gothos is the Father of Icarium, so one of my last comments in one of the previous threads out into the blue wasn’t so wrong after all. But a really sad story this is concerning Icarium indeed.
Gothos appears to be the guardian of the Deadhouse now. But I thought Jhenna was the guardian of that one as we have witnessed her in NoK? Anyone cares to enlighten me on that one? As far as the answer is no big spoiler?
And might be Icarium the brother of Jhenna?
Horrible scenes with Duiker and the Malazan army. Just horrible. But did anyone belive really at this point that Duilker will not return from his death in one way or the other? Especially considering the breaking of that bottle? I surely don’t.
And why did Fiddler accept it so easily that Kalam did not want to kill the Empress anymore? After so much scheming and going through so far to reach that ultimate goal, he just accepts this few words from Kalam so quickly and easily on that? I would at least have expected he would want some more good reasons for it.
And now something concerning the key to the overall scheming of the author that Abalieno obviously has found. Well, while I don’t want it to be revealed to me now, since there are so much more books to read in this series, I certainly would like to know what it is about when I’m through reading all the malazan books. To see if I have caught on some similar thoughts during reading.
The only thing I would like to know allready now is, is this concept something that Steven Erikson wants tell the readers? Some philosopic message he wants to pass on to us? Or how do I have to understand that? What kind of structure is Abalieno talking about? Can that be explained somehow to me without giving major spoilers concerning the story itself? Does actually anyone else know/understand what Abalieno is writing about? I’m just really curious now about that :-)