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Malazan Re-read of the Fallen: Memories of Ice, Chapters 4 and 5

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Malazan Re-read of the Fallen: Memories of Ice, Chapters 4 and 5

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Malazan Re-read of the Fallen: Memories of Ice, Chapters 4 and 5

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Published on March 30, 2011

Memories of Ice by Steven Erikson
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Memories of Ice by Steven Erikson

Welcome to the Malazan Re-read of the Fallen! Every post will start off with a summary of events, followed by reaction and commentary by your hosts Bill and Amanda (with Amanda, new to the series, going first), and finally comments from Tor.com readers. In this article, we’ll cover Chapter 4 and Chapter 5 of Memories of Ice by Steven Erikson (MoI).

A fair warning before we get started: We’ll be discussing both novel and whole-series themes, narrative arcs that run across the entire series, and foreshadowing.

Note: The summary of events will be free of major spoilers and we’re going to try keeping the reader comments the same. A spoiler thread has been set up for outright Malazan spoiler discussion.

Another note: Tor.com is collecting questions for Steven Erikson regarding Deadhouse Gates!

Another fair warning! Grab a cup of tea before you start reading—these posts are not the shortest!

Chapter Four

SCENE ONE

Gruntle watches a fellow caravan guard, Buke, approach Bauchelain’s carriage, seemingly in search of a job. Buke’s wife, mother, and four children had died in a fire while Buke was lying drunk in an alley just around the corner and Gruntle thinks he’s had a death wish ever since. When Gruntle and Buke speak, Buke tells him he believes Korbal Broach is the killer responsible for two weeks of murders in Darujhistan and Gruntle realizes Buke plans on trying to stop/kill Broach or die trying. Stonny arrives and though she doesn’t know the full story, asks Buke when he’s going to start living again.

SCENE TWO

Quick Ben meets an old woman in Pale, who refers to Quick Ben as a “snake of the desert,” “many-headed snake,” and “twelve-souls.” Quick asks her why Burn sleeps and about the idea that there are earthquakes and eruptions when Burn “stirs towards wakefulness.” The witch tells him these are “natural things . . . bound to their own laws of cause and effect.” She compares the world to a “beetle’s ball of dung [traveling] through a chilling void around the sun” and says Burn is the “egg within the dung,” the “pain of existence. The queen of the hive and we her workers and soldiers. And every now and then we swarm.” Quick tells her Burn is sick and she agrees. Quick then objects to the image of humanity (and others) as workers, saying it sounds like they’re “slaves.” The witch replies that Burn “demands nothing . . . Yet all that you do serves her no matter what you do. Not simply benign . . . but amoral. We can thrive or we can destroy ourselves, it matters not to her.” Quick asks again why the goddess sleeps and the witch says, “to dream.” She continues by saying she is “fevered” now (her sickness) and thus her “dreams become nightmares.” Quick Ben says he needs to figure out a way to stop the infection, and that he’ll need help. The witch says he may call on her and asks him to make sure he shuts the door on the way out, as “I prefer the cold.”

SCENE THREE

Paran, Quick Ben, Mallet, and Spindle are to join the parley at Brood’s camp. Mallet tells Paran he can sense a “new power” from Brood’s camp, something with “hints of T’lan Imass” that is “overpowering everyone else.” As they ride, Spindle’s warren is causing all sorts of chaos around them with animals. Paran’s mind wanders as they ride: he recalls Itko Kan; wonders about the rumors of pending rebellion in Seven Cities, and thinks of how his sister Tavore—”cold and canny” and “not the type to accept defeat”—will protect their House and especially Felisin from Laseen’s current purge, though he’d probably “recoil from using whatever methods she’s chosen.” They’re met by Whiskeyjack and Dujek and the others ride off, leaving Dujek to speak with Paran. Dujek tells him his father died and his mother “elected to join him,” that Tavore salvaged what she could of their holdings, became Adjunct, and sent Felisin to the Otataral Mines, where Dujek says she’ll probably be “quietly retrieved.” Paran blames himself for all of it, but tells Dujek “it is all right . . . the children of my parents are . . . capable of virtually anything.”

SCENE FOUR

Later, Paran sorrows over it all alone. Whiskeyjack joins him and tells him Silverfox is Tattersail reborn, and is also Nightchill. Paran looks at Silverfox where she and others wait at the foot of the barrow he and Whiskeyjack stand atop and says she’s more than just Nightchill and Tattersail; she’s a Soletaken. Whiskeyjack tells Paran that Silverfox has named him “Jen’isand Rul” which means “the Wanderer within the Sword” and that Silverfox says Paran is set apart from mortals or ascendants; he’s been “marked” (something Quick Ben senses as well). Paran tells him of seeing Rake kill two Hounds of Shadow, getting their blood on/in him, of entering Dragnipur and freeing the Hounds trapped inside. Whiskyjack says not to tell the Tiste Andii about it. When Paran says he doesn’t want to meet Silverfox, Whiskeyjack says it’s beyond just Paran (and his relationship with Tattersail), that Silverfox has lots of power and Kallor wants to kill her, though right now the Malazans, Brood, and Korlat are against it. Whiskeyjack wants Paran to help draw Tattersail forth to be the dominating soul inside Silverfox.

SCENE FIVE

Picker, Trotts, Detoran, Spindle, Hedge, and Blend steal the map table from Brood’s tent and bring it to an empty tent. Hedge lets them know how he and Fiddler rigged the earlier games and they’re going to pull it again with Spindle taking Fiddler’s place so they can take money from the other squads.

SCENE SIX

The rigging no longer seems to work and the Seventh Squad lost lots of money. Spindle crawls under the table and says there’s an image painted underneath like a big card. Hedge says he and Fiddler didn’t put it there. Spindle says it’s a “new card. Unaligned, without an aspect.” It has a figure in the middle with a dog-head on its chest. Spindle thinks he can make a copy and do a reading, figure out the card so they can re-rig the table.

SCENE SEVEN

Paran and Silverfox are together. Paran feels Nightchill’s presence “entwined like wires of black iron through all that was Tattersail . . . a bitter, demanding presence . . . She knows she was betrayed at the Enfilade at Pale. Both her and . . . Bellurdan.” Paran asks why the Gathering and Silverfox says the T’lan Imass are gathering for her “benediction,” but the alliance will need the T’lan Imass’ “full strength” for the upcoming war with the Pannion. She tells Paran that Tattersail believes the Deck of Dragons is “a kind of structure imposed on power itself. each card is a gate into a warren and there were once many more cards . . . may have been other Decks.” She continues by saying “there is also a kind of structure focused upon power itself . . . Houses . . . Holds.” She believes the Houses of the Azath and Houses of the Deck are the same or linked. When he recalls rumors that Kellanved and Dancer found a way into the Deadhouse in Malaz City, she tells him they have ascended and are now Shadowthrone and Cotillion/Rope. He asks why, since they went into the Deadhouse, they didn’t take the aspect of the House of Death and Silverfox theorizes it’s because that House is already occupied by Hood, King of High House Death. If, however, each Azath is linked to all others, gaining entrance to one as ST and Cotillion did allows one to choose, so they picked an empty House/throne and so the House of Shadow appeared. She adds it was once a Hold, “bestial, a wilder place, and apart from the Hounds it knew no ruler for a long, long time.”

Paran asks about the Unaligned and she makes a few guesses: “Failed aspects? The imposition of chance, of random forces? The Azath and the Deck are both impositions of order but even order needs freedom.” He asks what it all has to do with him and she begins with Rake: “Rake is Knight of the House of Dark, yet where is the House itself? Before all else there was Dark . . . so it must be an ancient place, or Hold, or something that came before Holds themselves. A focus for the gate into Kurald Galain . . . the First Wound, with a soul trapped in its maw, thus sealing it.” Paran then picks up the train of thought: “Or a legion of souls . . .Before Houses there were Holds . . . both stationary. Settled. Before settlement there was wandering. House from Hold. Hold from a gate in motion . . . a wagon, burdened beneath the countless souls sealing the gate into Dark.” Silverfox interrupts to say she thinks Paran is now the Master of the Deck, “birthed by accident or by some purpose the need of which only the Azath know.” When he scoffs, she tells him “An unseen war has begun, Paran. The warrens themselves are under assault . . . An army is being assembled perhaps, and you—a soldier—are part of that army.” He tells her about his dreams of a child screaming inside a wound. She tells him to run toward the child, not away. He says he is always “the wrong choice.” He thinks Whiskeyjack and the other Malazans also put their faith in him mistakenly. As he looks at them he thinks at least he can tell WJ that Tattersail appears to be at the forefront, though he closes with the idea: “I will fail you all.”

 

Amanda’s Reaction to Chapter Four

Is Fisher Kel Tath the Fisherman we saw in Night of Knives? [Bill: No, but more to come on Fisher.] This poem at the start of Chapter Four is clearly talking about the Elder Gods and their experiences at the hands of the curse given to them by Kallor. Lots that needs discussing and holding in mind, I think. What is the betrayal that greets Sister of Cold Nights’ dawn? Is this the telling of her “death” and rebirth into the body of Silverfox? “You chose to trust the knife, even as it found your heart.” This might be an oblique reference to Bellurdan, her mate? Referring to K’rul, the work says he might make of his grief the sweetest gift. Really not sure what to make of it, but will pop it all in my filing cabinet!

At times Erikson’s work reminds me of many other books and/or TV series. Here at the start of Chapter Four I’m reminded strongly of Firefly as Gruntle mocks Harllo and Stonny Menackis. It sounds like Mal teasing Jayne and Zoe as they relax after a job. The teasing, the betting, the casual insults—all feel remarkably comfortable and are a great way to write in the friendship between these three characters. [Bill: Must. Resist. Anti-Fox. Firefly Cancellation Rant. Must. Resist]

Interesting that Bauchelain and Korbal Broach are referred to as “sorcerers” by Gruntle—and mention is made of the way their wagon crossed the uneven path of the ford without so much as a jolt. But I don’t think they are mages. They certainly don’t seem to be of the same ilk as the mages we’ve seen in the army, although I guess mages would come in all flavours and not all of them will be military based. I wonder if they use warrens?

Buke, Buke, Buke—did he feature in Gardens of the Moon? Was the “tenement fire” actually fire caused by the events conducted by the Bridgeburners? Or is Buke an entirely new chap to the series? Whichever it is, I don’t think his acceptance of employment from Bauchelain is a sensible decision! Certainly we have this paragraph to hint at future suffering:

“Ah, friend Buke, I hope you do not come to regret your choice. No doubt violence and horror swirls around your two new masters, but you’re more likely to be a witness to it than a victim yourself. Haven’t you been in suffering’s embrace long enough?”

Now, the killings in Darujhistan where Vorcan’s guild were enlisted could have been to do with the events we read in Gardens of the Moon—the various killings that took place thanks to an assassin’s war. Equally Broach could have been behind it—what we do know is that Buke intends to kill Korbal Broach. I suspect this story thread will extend through the whole novel. “Who can abide the murder of innocents?”

Ahh, Stonny is sweet on Buke, by the looks of things. I like the way relationships and romance are handled so far by Erikson—no swooning from women; nice no nonsense attitudes to it all! I also like the way that modern phrases (such as large cars compensating for a man lacking in… *ahem*… other areas) are switched into ye olde terms by Erikson—here: “Everyone knows that two-handed sword of yours is nothing but a pathetic attempt at compensation, Harllo.” [Bill: Sometimes a sword isn’t just a sword, eh?]

Erikson constantly reminds us of themes he needs us to pay attention to:

“Don’t push!” a voice shrieked behind it. “Pull, you snake of the desert!”

Shrugging, Quick Ben tugged the door towards him.

“Only fools push!”

Pushing and pulling—something we’ve heard a number of times before now.

There is also reference to Quick Ben smelling of Raraku, and the old woman calls him “snake of the desert,” which is more, I think, than we’ve known before—although the fact Kalam is from Seven Cities might have hinted at this anyway.

Snake = Soletaken? Or snake = dragon?

Quick Ben = twelve souls? What does this mean? Twelve people within him? [Bill: Let’s see, that’s five sentences about Quick Ben. Five of them ending in question marks. Get used to it.]

This conversation between Quick Ben and the oldest witch of Tennes (the warren which is the Path of the Land) is another of those that you just KNOW has portent for the over-arcing story of the entire series! Lots of hints about Quick Ben, asking questions about Burn and why she sleeps, the idea of those who inhabit Burn “swarming”—possibly into warrens. Lots to bear in mind, methinks!

Burn is presented as amoral—distant and uncaring:

“We can thrive, or we can destroy ourselves, it matters not to her—she will simply birth another brood and it begins again.”

And here is the crux of the issue—the presence of the Crippled God is a sickness upon Burn, and she sleeps to dream, so at the moment is suffering burning nightmares. Hence the world falling to pieces around her—the wars, the ascendants gathering, the momentous events.

Heh. If Quick Ben’s mind nags upon something I feel it would be wise to bear it in mind! So… “She prefers the cold. Strange. Most old people like heat and plenty of it…” So who is this old woman? Is she younger than she seems, and not an old woman at all? Is she a being who naturally prefers the cold—maybe Jaghut blood? I would like to think she is Lady Spite, the complete reverse of Lady Envy!

We’ve just seen reference to the heat and fever of Burn—and then we hear Paran has a fiery pain in his belly. Is this just a coincidence?

Erikson offers us a neat little precis of how the cauldron is simmering in the city of Pale since the outlawing of the Malazan soldiers—there is no administrative backup, and no Claws to rule the black markets. The Malazans are finding themselves beholden to the Darujhistans, which is not a situation that invaders would wish to suffer.

I’m grinning at the effect that Spindle’s warren usage is having on the neighbourhoods of Pale—it just seems so prosaic and commonplace.

Here is a juxtaposition of life and death, which reminds me somewhat of the poppies in the fields of Flanders:

Midsummer flowers cloaked the flanks of the recent barrows two hundred paces to their left in swathes of brittle blue, the hue deepening as the sun sank lower behind the mounds.

Ouch… “No matter what, Tavore will take care of Felisin. That, at least, I can take comfort from…”

He doesn’t remain under this illusion for too long, with the conversation that occurs between he and Dujek. What a truly sad conversation it is. It makes my heart hurt hearing Paran take on the fault of the cull, Felisin’s experience, the death of both his parents. It sits strangely with Felisin’s conviction that Tavore is entirely at fault—I don’t think there was a single instance where she blamed Paran for her circumstances.

“The children of my parents are, one and all, capable of virtually anything. We can survive the consequences. Perhaps we lack normal conscience, perhaps we are monsters in truth.”

Paran’s moments of reflection reveal some questions and statements that should maybe be dwelt on in the comments: the idea that we never truly move beyond childhood, we merely shroud ourselves in the armour of adulthood; the idea that this same armour can both protect us from bitter experiences—but can also trap us to suffer the memories forever. Have at it. *grins* What struck you about these matters of philosophy?

And finally Paran is told about Silverfox—and is being used to try and bring forth Tattersail within Silverfox, so that she will not betray the Malazans. “She is but a child.”

I don’t know how many here have read Stephenie Meyer’s novels. I have. In the third and fourth novel Meyer introduces “imprinting,” the idea that two souls are joined—no matter the age of the two participants. In Breaking Dawn Meyer allows imprinting to occur between a female child and an adult male, with hand holding and companionship. Here Erikson chooses the opposite path—Paran immediately shying away from the idea of hand holding with Silverfox. I found it interesting having seen both avenues investigated in literature.

Now Paran has been gifted the name Jen’isand Rul—the Wanderer within the Sword—and we learn that his sickness and awakening powers are to do with his sojourn within Dragnipur. There is also a representation of “even gods may bleed” when Whiskeyjack says:

“The Son of Darkness is an unpredictable bastard, by all accounts. And if the legend of Dragnipur is true, the curse of that sword of his is that no-one escapes its nightmare prison—their souls are chained… for ever. You’ve cheated that, and perhaps the Hounds have as well. You’ve set an alarming… precedent.”

Ooooh wait! Two Hounds escaped… Might these be Baaljagg and Garath? [Bill: Recall the Hounds of Shadow killed by Rake in GoTM. These were later freed by Paran within the sword. That’s not to say B and G don’t have their own little secrets….]

*giggles* I love, love, love the image of the Bridgeburners creeping through camp to retrieve the table in Brood’s tent! They are like children, with their whispering and jostling and cursing each other as they carry the table back through camp. Here is confirmation too that the Decks were real, thanks to the sensitivity of Hedge and Fiddler. With Spindle’s rather weak ability and his odd powers, I wonder if this will have any effect on the readings and the use of the table?

“Who’s that figure in the middle—the one with the dog-head on his chest?” Might that be Paran? And the creation of a new House? Or Paran taking a position in a particular House? “It’s a new card. Unaligned, without an aspect.”

Five pages. That is how long the conversation between Paran and Silverfox lasts at the end of Chapter Four—but, my god, the amount it covers. Ideas that have been hinted at. Links between the Azath and the Warrens. The idea that the Deadhouse is an entry point into the Warren of Death—but that, once in there, you choose. The fact that Kellanved and Dancer could not ascend and take positions in the House of Death because Hood already owned that position. The fact that Paran might well now be the Master of the Deck….

“Paran, something has happened—to the Deck of Dragons. A new card has arrived. Unaligned, yet, I think, dominant. The Deck has never possessed a… master. […] I now believe it has one. You.”

 

Bill’s Reaction to Chapter Four

I like Buke’s backstory for a few reasons. One, I like that that Darujhistan—that jewel of a city with its blue gas—isn’t painted as just some funky fantasy prop. That gas is useful and gives the city a surreal ethereal kind of beauty, but I like that Erikson gives us the darker realistic side of it: the obvious increased danger with regard to fire. I think the vast majority of authors would never have mentioned that (having not thought of it or thought why ruin a great image) and a tiny number would have used it for some spectacularly explosive scene. But Erikson gives us such an obvious downside via individual grief—as so often happens in the series. And really, what has more impact on a reader—delving into the effect of grief on an individual as we do with Buke (and others) or some abstractly massive loss of life?

I also like how Erikson not only shies away from the clichéd use of such a backstory but reminds us of the cliché: the griever turned to drink.

Another plus is that Buke’s backstory once again lets us see relationships in action. Too often we’re given the base relationships—the love relationship, the best friend relationship, and the bonded (not bondage folks, bonded—you all know what I mean). But relationships in the world run the spectrum and so we get Gruntle and Stonny reacting to Buke who is maybe a strong acquantance but I wouldn’t fit him into either of the usual categories. Even Stonny caring for him is much more individualistic rather than played as a relationship “type.”

Finally, of course, Buke is just a great character and has one of my favorites endings of all characters. And he is given early on one of the classic theme tags for the series: “who can abide the murder of innocents?” A nice echo, rephrasing of Deadhouse Gates’s “Children are dying.”

A bit more info on Quick Ben as the witch tells us she sees twelve souls in him. (Explaining perhaps all those warrens? All that knowledge?)

Every now and then we get a scientific glimpse at the world, which I always find fascinating in these works. We get one here from the witch who describes the world “traveling through a chilling void around the sun. The surface floats in pieces on a sea of molten rock. Sometimes the pieces grind together…” It took us some time and lots of angry debate and vilification (not to mention some stake burning) to get to either of those two views as consensus opinion and one doesn’t expect it from an old witch in a roughly late medieval fantasy.

I’ll just point out at this point that this is the second time we’ve ended a Quick Ben scene dealing with Burn’s poisoning with him focusing on “cold.” Any reference that closes a scene is usually going to be important as they tend to linger—when it happens twice….

We get more of the Emperor’s wisdom with regard to empire-building—the idea that the army is not meant to be either an occupying or administrative force (where was ST when we needed him cough cough) and that “bureaucratic manipulation” of the economy (including the shadow economy of the black market) is the way to go.

Spindle’s hair shirt—another great creation, as is the response to his warren. We’re getting a broader and deeper view of magic as we continue on and one aspect I like of this version is its idiosyncratic nature. I prefer that over the monomagic (?) we see in other works, where it’s a singular body of study and magic-users are mostly distinct in their power levels or quantity of spells or both. Here, the magic is much more individualistic and Spindle is a good example of that. (Bottle will be another one eventually.)

Speaking of power levels, what does it say about Silverfox that she is “overpowering” Brood, Korlat, Kallor in Mallet’s senses? That’s some serious firepower there.

Poor Paran, thinking that at least he can count on Tavore taking care of Felisin. He’s about to be rudely disabused of that notion. Of course, having read DG, readers are already well aware of how she’s been “taken care of” and so this is a painful read. With regard to Tavore, however, his description of her as “not the type to accept defeat” will ring on down through many, many pages. Back to Paran, though, imagine the impact of each one of Dujek’s news bits: your father—dead, your mother—dead, your sister—sent to the mines, your other sister—the one who sent her, as well as Adjunct to the Empress. Bam. Bam. Bam. Body blow after body blow after body blow. And he takes it. Standing there, he takes it. And then smiles. This is, as we’ve seen somewhat already and will see more and more, one tough family. Or as Paran says, “The children of my parents are, one and all, capable of virtually anything. We can survive.” Which if ended there is perhaps grimly inspiring. But oh, where he goes next: “Perhaps we lack normal conscience, perhaps we are monsters in truth.”

Later, he muses on one of our theme words: armor.

“armor encumbers, restricts the body and soul within it. But it also protects . . . Feelings lose their edge, leaving us to suffer naught but a plague of bruises, and after a time, bruises fade . . . but memories and revelations settle in like poisons, never to be expunged.”

So what then does the armor serve? To get one alive to a time where memories can settle? Does it in fact serve? Is it a matter of balance between overly-armored and overly-vulnerable?

We mentioned it in our prior post, but we see instances of it throughout these chapters as well—the subtle and concise ways Erikson reminds us of plot points we have perhaps not read for two years or so: we’ve had Paran recall the Hound’s attack on the barracks (the one involving Tattersail and Hairlock) and in the conversation with Whiskeyjack we get reminders of Paran’s connection with the Hounds and Rake. It all falls naturally into place—arising as conversation where it would make sense to, rising up from interior monologues prompted by surrounding events or visuals. So much better than those awkward dialogs you sometimes get when one character explains to another what that character already knows: “Well Kanath, as you know because you were there, when the Dark Lord raised his mace and blah blah blah . . .”

Nice echo in the conversation with Whiskeyjack of the prologue when WJ asks Paran, “You think Rake takes much comfort in the belief of his swords finality?” Recall Draconus and K’rul’s conversation:

Draconus: The power invested within the sword possesses . . . a finality

K’rul: Then . . . you must make alterations

Draconus: So it seems

Hmm, perhaps Rake shouldn’t take comfort in the “finality”?

After the fraught nature of that conversation, you gotta love its wry ending when Whiskeyjack tells Paran, “it seems we will have to promote you to a rank equal to mine, if only to circumvent your confusion as to who commands around here.”

Don’t have anything to say about the table theft scene except I’d love to see it on film.

We learn eventually that it’s Paran on the table, but we do have a few hints before that reveal: the dog-head on the chest being the most obvious one. We’re told it looks “Rhivi.” Then a few pages later Silverfox tells Paran she recently “fashion [ed] the card that is you.”

That’s a great conversation by the way. It could have been a simple info dump, but what I like about it, and what prevents it (in my mind) from being that, is that both characters are feeling their way toward a truth, lacking any real (to use a key word) certainty in their theories. I said this before about a scene with Kulp doing something similar—I like listening in on smart people thinking. And so much cool stuff in here:

  • The cards as gates into warrens. (It’s no spoiler to say this will be a key revelation all the way to the very end of the series, though we’ll see its use prior to that.)
  • The connection between House-Azath and House-Deck.
  • The connection between House and Hold: this (or the wagon) may have been my favorite move in this whole conversation. I love the sense of lively intellect and stimulation in grasping that concept, that link between evolution and the terminology: nomadic/migratory (the wagon) to settlement (Hold) to more civilized (?) settlement (House). And we will eventually see a place where Holds are still more dominant.
  • More on Shadow: once a Hold, “bestial, a wilder place,” knowing “no ruler for a long, long time.”
  • Balance once again, this time via the unaligned: “the imposition of chance, of random forces? The Azath and Deck are both impositions of order, but even order needs freedom, lest it solidify and become fragile.” Think the Twins, for instance.
  • The gate into Dark (Kurald Galain) as a wound, possibly sealed by all those souls in Dragnipur.
  • The perhaps “punctur [ing]” of that seal by Paran sending the two Hounds through it.

And outside the whole Master of the Deck, structure of it all, let’s not ignore some key lines at the end about Paran’s nightmares of a “child within a wound.” That should echo for the reader; we after all saw two children placed into a wound in the prologue.

Not a very optimistic way to end the chapter: “I will fail you all.” But as readers, I think Paran’s POV on this is tempered by the very faith he thinks he will fail. Personally, I’m willing to trust Whiskeyjack and Quick Ben on this one.

Chapter Five

SCENE ONE

Toc has been traveling for two days with Lady Envy, Tool, the Seguleh, and the two “dogs”—Garath and Baaljagg. Toc tells Envy her flirtations make him nervous. Tool teaches Toc the making of arrows. As they watch Tool flake obsidian Toc, in answer to Envy’s question, says iron was discovered half a thousand years ago and before that people used bronze, before that copper and tin, and before that probably stone. Envy says humans as usual focus only on humans, and that the Elder Races knew quite sophisticated forging methods, and mentions Dragnipur. Toc says sorcery replaces “technological advancement . . . supplanting the progress of mundane knowledge.” Tool gives Toc some info on Lady Envy. Rake, Brood, and a sorceress who later ascended to become Queen of Dreams used to wander together. Rake was joined by Envy and Osric while Brood went off on his own. Brood was gone for score centuries and reappeared a thousand years ago or so carrying Burn’s Hammer. Meanwhile there was a falling out among the trio: Osric left and Rake and Envy eventually parted “argumentatively” before the chaining of the Crippled God, which Rake attended and Envy did not. The two discuss the Seguleh and Toc says he thinks Mok’s twin stripes means he is the Third highest Seguleh and says there is a legendary Seguleh with an unmarked white porcelain mask that only the Seguleh have seen. Tool asks Senu why the Seguleh came here and he answers they are the “punitive army of the Seguleh.” Usually their Blackmasks (First Level Initiates) kill everyone who comes to the island but as the unarmed invaders—priests of the Pannion—kept coming, and then threatened an army, the Seguleh decided to deal with the source. Tool asks how old Senu is and he says fourteen (Tool had been greatly impressed by Senu’s swordsmanship).

SCENE TWO

Thurule attacks Tool. As they fight, Envy tells Toc how Rake once visited the Seguleh island (not knowing anything about them) and because he deferred to none, ended up fighting Seguleh for two bells and eventually had to step into his warren to slow his heart rate. Mok says the Seguleh call him Blacksword and that his people still hold the Seventh Mask for Rake to claim. Tool wins the fight. When he tells Toc he used only the flat of his blade Mok is taken aback. Envy, over Mok’s objection, heals Thurule then forbids any more fighting.

SCENE THREE

Whiskey, Quick Ben, and Mallet are together on the same hill where they found Tattersail and Hairlock in GoTM. WJ asks for a report. Mallet says Paran’s blood has the “taint of ascendant blood and ascendant places . . . like shoves down a corridor” and the more he refuses to go the sicker he gets. Quick Ben says Paran is pretty much an ascendant himself. Quick Ben wonders where the Hounds went that Paran freed and says his link to one of them makes Paran unpredictable. He suggests they shove Paran down that corridor themselves, even if they don’t know what’s at the end of it. They worry about Nightchill taking the dominant role in Silverfox. Quick says her warren was Rashan, Darkness and Whiskeyjack recalls her as “remote, cold.” Quick Ben thinks to himself how there have been “other Nightchills long before the Malazan Empire . . . two thousand years ago . . . if she’s the same one.” Whiskeyjack tells them to keep pushing Paran and find out everything they can about Nightchill.

SCENE FOUR

Whiskeyjack and Dujek meet. They say there is a lot of power marshaled against the Pannion and wonder what that implies. WJ reports Twist has said “his flights should remain unseen . . . he has scouts seeking a strategic place to hold up close to the Pannion Border.” The two discuss Quick Ben initiating contact with the Grey Swords in Capustan. Whiskeyjack says the Second Gathering is causing some consternation, as is the idea that the T’lan will be needed in the war. Dujek and Whiskeyjack discuss Kellanved’s surprising “restraint” in his use of the Imass and worry about them being led by a child. Dujek says they need to make sure Tattersail takes the reins. Whiskeyjack says Kallor will try to kill Silverfox but Dujek disagrees, saying Kallor worries about Brood. He says friend or foe, you don’t want to mess with Brood, and rumor is the hammer is the only thing that can wake up Burn. Dujek, though, worries that Kallor will try to persuade Brood, and later Rake, to his view re Silverfox. Whiskeyjack says he will not stand the killing of a child, even if Dujek commands him to. They get themselves another drink.

SCENE FIVE

Brood wonders aloud to the Mhybe if maybe Kallor might be right and the Mhybe says they’ll kill Silverfox over her dead body. Brood says it pains him to see what Silverfox is doing to the Mhybe. The Mhybe explains that “blood-bound lives are the web that carries each of us, they make up that which a life climbs from newborn . . . to adulthood. Without such life-forces, one withers and dies. To be alone is to be ill.” She says for Silverfox, the Mhybe is the only one as the Imass have no life-force to give and Tattersail and Nightchill were both dead. When Brood asks why its accelerated, why Silverfox is so “impatient,” Korlat asks if he thinks she’s doing so in order to have more authority (since she’ll no longer be a child) when the Second Gathering occurs. The Mhybe says whereas the Andii or Brood have the centuries “of living necessary to contain what you command, Silverfox does not . . .to fully command [great power] she must be a grown woman.” The three agree that a concern is that even then, she will be “untempered,” lacking experience. Korlat speculates Silverfox may also be hurrying her growth to be able to defend herself against Kallor and they wonder what is the secret between the two of them. Brood asks if she does not have “experience” via the other souls in her. The Mhybe says she is still learning of the others and is comforted by what she sees of Tattersail, less so by Nightchill, of whom she senses “a seething anger, a hunger for vengeance, possibly against Tayschrenn (of Bellurdan she says he is only a memory of Nightchill). When Brood says wasn’t it Rake who killed Nightchill, Korlat says not, she was betrayed by Tayschrenn. Brood suggests they try to ensure Tattersail is dominant and when Korlat says trust Whiskeyjack to do just that, Brood says he hears “her heart in [her] words.” Brood tells the Mhybe to keep an eye on Silverfox.

SCENE SIX

The Darujhistan contingent arrives to meet with the above group, as well as Dujek, Whiskeyjack, Twist, Paran, Kallor, and Silverfox. The Mhybe thinks she’s ready to die now that Silverfox has gotten allies. Kruppe is first to arrive and the Mhybe says they’ve met before, at Silverfox’s birth. Kruppe sees what Silverfox has done to the Mhybe and is struck silent in sorrow. Murillio and Coll, along with Estraysian D’arle, (the “official” Darujhistan delegation) arrive. Kruppe suggests using the Trygalle Trade Guild to supply the army and all agree.

SCENE SEVEN

Crone senses magic from within the camp and seeking it out, finds Brood’s table. She listens in to a group of Bridgeburners. Spindle had done several Deck readings and each time “Obelisk dominates—the dolmen of time is the core. It’s active . . . first time in decades.” Spindle also says the new card (the one under the table) holds everything together but it feels like it hasn’t “woken up yet.” He continues with his reading: “Soldier of High House Death’s right-hand to Obelisk. Magi of Shadow’s here—first time for that one too—a grand deception’s at work . . . The Captain of High House Light holds out some hope, but it’s shaded by Hood’s Herald—though not directly . . . Assassin of High House Shadow seems to have acquired a new face . . . it’s Kalam!” Based on the reading they guess the Whirlwind is rising and Seven Cities is ready to rebel. Crone checks out the card under the table.

SCENE EIGHT

The Mhybe leaves the command tent and is followed by Paran, who asks about possible hiding places for a table. She leads him to the tent. On the way they discuss the Malazan invasion. Paran tells her Dujek’s army was being “chewed to bits” and the arrival of Brood, Rake, and the Crimson Guard stopped the Malazans cold. It was only the mages and the Moranth munitions keeping the Malazans going, but the Moranth are in a schism, with the Blue and Gold still working with the Malazans. Near the table’s tent, they come across Crone, who flees Paran for some reason. Paran orders Hedge, Spindle, Blend and Picker to return the table. Spindle says “it’s him” (meaning the picture under the table is Paran). As Paran and the Mhybe leave, he tells her he has no idea what Spindle was talking about.

SCENE NINE

Paran meets Whiskeyjack, who tells him Kruppe, Coll, and Murillo will be joining the march and that the Black Moranth will take Paran and the Bridgeburners to the Barghast Mountains in hopes that Trotts will get the White Face Barghast as allies, then they are to continue on to Capustan. Rake appears in dragon form in the Andii part of the camp.

SCENE TEN

Kallor tells Rake he seeks his justice with regard to Silverfox and not to let “sentiment” guide him. Korlat and the Mhybe also try to speak to him. When Rake says it appears his judgment has been anticipated, Brood says he will not allow Dragnipur’s unsheathing in his camp. The Mhybe worries things are on the edge of collapse and then thinks she senses power from Artanthos, but then dismisses the possibility. Korlat says she sides with Brood and when Rake tells Kallor he stands alone, Kallor says “it was ever thus,” a response with which Rake can empathize. Whiskeyjack arrives and stands before Silverfox then unsheathes his sword to face Rake and Kallor and the rest. Rake sends out a sorcerous feeler toward Silverfox and it is quickly shattered by her, as the Mhybe senses rage from both Nightchill and Tattersail and “another. A stolid will, a sentience slow to anger, so much like Brood.” Rake wonders what is being hidden from him and as he reaches for his sword, Brood reaches for his hammer and Whiskeyjack raises his own sword. Just then, Brood’s table appears flying overhead with Kruppe hanging from it.

SCENE ELEVEN

Back with Picker’s group, she sees Paran disappear. She calls for someone to find Quick Ben.

SCENE TWELVE

Paran appears facing Rake and Kallor. At Kruppe’s cry he looks up to see the table floating above, his face painted on the bottom. Sudden pain overcomes him.

SCENE THIRTEEN

The Mhybe sees tendrils of power reach from Silverfox to the table. The legs snap off and Kruppe falls. The underside of the table faces Rake and Kallor, with waves of sorcery coming off the image of Paran then touching Paran in “silver chains.” Quick Ben arrives and says “that’s the largest card of the Deck I’ve ever seen.” He steps between the two groups and says a confrontation perhaps isn’t the smartest idea. Rake sheathes Dragnipur and asks who Quick Ben is. Quick says “just a soldier.” Kruppe arrives and stands between Paran and Rake and asks if the meeting has adjourned.

SCENE FOURTEEN

Paran finds himself in a hallway. Two bodies lie there—Rallick Nom and Vorcan—which places him in the Finnest House in Darujhistan. A Jaghut enters and introduces himself as Raest, “Guardian, prisoner, damned,” then notes Paran is here only in spirit. When Paran asks why he [Paran] is here, Raest leads him down some steps. Paran asks how long Nom and Vorcan have been there and Raest says he doesn’t measure time inside the House; they were there when he arrived. Paran asks if they are Guardians as well and Raest says no. Raest names him Master of the Deck. They reach a landing where the ground is a bunch of roots and Raest says Paran has to go on by himself. Paran asks why the Azath has suddenly found the need for a Master of the Deck and Raest answers because a war has begun that will affect all entities: mortals, Houses, gods, etc. Paran moves forward and finds himself on a flagstoned floor where each stone has a card carved on it. He bends to study one and finds himself before a hut made of bones and tusks (the image on the stone) and realizes he can travel at will from there. He enters the hut and finds twin thrones of bone on a dais of what appear to be T’lan Imass skulls—The Hold of the Beasts, “the heart of the T’lan Imass’ power—their spirit world when they were still flesh and blood, when they still possessed spirits to be worshipped . . . long before they initiated the Ritual of Tellann.” He realizes the Tellann warren must have been born from the Ritual, “aspected of dust.” He grieves for the Imass, having outlived their own gods, existing “in a world of dust . . . memories untethered, an eternal existence, no end in sight . . . so alone for so long.”

SCENE FIFTEEN

He returns to the flagstone area and looks at a stone etched with the image of a sleeping woman. He sees it is Burn and that her skin is forest and bedrock, and so on, and also that she is “marred.” Looking closer, he sees “at the wound’s heart, a humped, kneeling, broken figure. Chained. Chained to Burn’s own flesh. From the figure, down the length of the chains, poison flowed into the Sleeping Goddess.” Continuing to study it, he realizes “she sensed the sickness coming . . . chose to sleep . . . to escape the prison of her own flesh in order to do battle . . . She made of herself a weapon. Her entire spirit, all its power, into a single forging . . . a hammer . . . capable of breaking anything . . . then found a man to wield it . . .but breaking the chains meant freeing the Crippled God. And an unchained Crippled God meant an unleashing of vengeance—enough to sweep all life from the surface of the world. And yet Burn . . . was indifferent to that. She would simply begin again.” Of Brood, Paran understands “he refuses . . . to defy the Crippled God’s unleashing . . . Brood refuses her.” Paran pulls back, weeping, and finds himself back with Raest, who asks if he’s found knowledge a gift or curse and Paran answers both.

SCENE SIXTEEN

Paran returns to in front of Rake. Silverfox puts a hand on his shoulder. Quick Ben, eying Rake, steps closer to Paran. Rake says Quick Ben’s advice seems wise. Kallor says now is the time to kill Silverfox before she gets even more powerful. Rake says what if they fail, not to mention she has only acted in self-defense. Brood sheathes his hammer and says it’s about time wisdom prevailed. He asks Paran if he can do something about the floating table. Quick Ben says he might be able to, which causes Rake to note he’s not simply a soldier as he had said. Quick downplays his ability then tells Rake not to quest toward him. Rake turns away.

SCENE SEVENTEEN

The Mhybe hobbles off, in great pain, the tribal wards against pain—copper on wrists and ankles—seemingly not doing anything. She falls to her knees and Crone speaks to her, grieving for her and asking how she can help. The Mhybe says Crone cannot, and tells her she is nearing hatred for Silverfox at what is happening to herself. Crone says she will find a way to help and the Mhybe says it is impossible. Korlat arrives and raises the Mhybe up and tells her she will also try to help, will remain at the Mhybe’s side and will not let her give in to despair and kill herself.

SCENE EIGHTEEN

Brood tells Rake Burn is dying. Rake asks if there is anything Brood can do and Brood says only the same old choice. Rake says he, Hood, Brood and the Queen of Dreams all agreed about the Crippled God. Rake asks what happens if Burn dies and Brood says he does not know all, but that her warren will die, will become the Crippled God’s way into all the other warrens, which will then all die, and all sorcery as well, which Brood says may not be so bad. But Rake says the destruction will not end there, and it appears no matter which of the two choices Brood makes, the CG wins, though at least Brood is giving the living extra time. To which Brood answers, time spent warring and killing one another. Rake changes the subject and asks if given Burn’s illness if Brood had been bluffing earlier. Brood says he can still raise power but it is filled with chaos and unpredictable. They turn to the Pannion Domin and Rake says chaos is at its core. Brood says it can’t be a coincidence, since chaos is the Chained One’s power. When Rake says that adds a complication Brood says Silverfox has said they’ll need more and has summoned the T’lan Imass, which doesn’t particularly please Rake.

SCENE NINETEEN

Kallor tells Whiskeyjack he is a fool and will regret protecting Silverfox. Whiskeyjack walks away and Kallor tells him he isn’t done with Whiskeyjack. Whiskeyjack asks Quick Ben about the table-card of Paran and Quick identifies Paran as the Master of the Deck and says he’ll have to think about how that is linked to him also being the Wanderer in the Sword. He suggests they have the Trygalle Guild take the card to Baruk. Silverfox says that’s a bad idea, as Paran will be needing it because “we struggle against more than one enemy.” Kallor steps in and Quick Ben says he’s not part of the conversation. Kallor threatens Quick, who makes a hole under Kallor’s feet, then leaves. As do the others.

SCENE TWENTY

Whiskeyjack watches the march start. Twist has already taken Paran and the Bridgeburners several days earlier. He and Quick Ben discuss how Silverfox has grown five years since the parley and the Mhybe is on the edge of death. He’s also worried about Rake’s probing. Whiskeyjack says he needs Quick for a little while more then asks what else Quick is up to that has him visiting every temple and seer and Deck reader, not to mention sacrificing a goat. Quick Ben tries to change the subject by noting that the Rhivi spirits are all gone, recently “cleaned out,” but then tells Whiskeyjack he’s doing some investigating and it won’t interfere. Whiskeyjack can tell Quick is worried about something big.

 

Amanda’s Reaction to Chapter Five

This poem at the start of Chapter Five deals with the First Sword of the T’lan Imass, the rallying point of the tribes against the Jaghut. Tool was the First Sword at some point, wasn’t he? If not still? [Bill: Still is.] I sense he will have a role with Silverfox and the gathering.

I’m not 100% sure I like Lady Envy, especially when Toc thinks “All my defences broken down… for your amusement?” and sees a flash in her eyes that confirms his guess. Strikes me Lady Envy has spent far too much time [Bill: And she’s had a LOT of time.] manipulating people and not seeing them as individuals.

I wonder how much Erikson knows of early man [Bill: Remember his profession—archaelogy/anthropology.], since his description of the arrow making is exactly precise to the way Jean M. Auel describes it in the Earth’s Children series. The research this man must have done just for casual passages like this one defies belief, truly.

I have to say, it’s handy having all this nice long-lived characters who are able to explain to newcomers (Tool talking to Toc) about various events that happened thousands of years previously. *grins* The trope of using a wise old character to talk to a wide-eyed youngster is tried and tested in fantasy, and occasionally it becomes noticeable in Erikson’s work (such as here). However, invariably, the information being passed over is a) of such interest you care little about the method of receiving it; b) never contains everything you need to make the picture complete and c) is coloured by the character telling the tale and their respective knowledge/beliefs, which might not necessarily be the truth.

Now a rather enlightening chat with the Segulah Senu, who reveals that the Priests of Pannion are trying to convert them—religious wars are always the worst, and so it seems it will be with the Pannion Seer.

Ha, this book is just so much fun to read. *grins* I adore sentences like those where Tool reveals he used the flat of his blade to defeat Thurule, and Mok turns slowly to regard him. I love it where we find that Anomander Rake is demanded to take his place as the Seventh of the Segulah. There are so many bits of this book that make me thrill to read it. The confusion of Gardens of the Moon has faded; the readjustment of changing continents and conflicts is removed; Memories of Ice is just all out fun so far.

Quick Ben raises a really interesting point—one that has been told to us a few times in passing, but is never reinforced. The sword Dragnipur doesn’t belong to Rake. It was forged by Draconus. I think that needs to be borne in mind as we go on, and I think it might reveal more about Paran’s “affliction.”

Although we already know Nightchill’s actual name, it is worth highlighting this passage which would help readers on their own come to realise we have, in fact, met Sister of Cold Nights:

“There have been other Nightchills… long before the Malazan Empire. […] A woman, a sorceress, named Nightchill, again and again. If she’s the same one…”

Regarding this point, I am also left wondering if Quick Ben merely heard stories or if some part of him was present and met the other Nightchills? How old is he? Where did he come from? I am half-wondering about Draconus—linked to Quick Ben—now. We’ve seen possession by gods, we’ve seen rebirth of characters….

Heh. Whatever and whoever he is, Quick Ben certainly has a high opinion of himself! “Fine, O Fallen One, but that means you’ll have to outwit me. Forget the gods and their clumsy games, I’ll have you crawling in circles before long…” A reasonable expectation? Or over-confidence? [Bill: We’ll see. Good rule of thumb though in Malaz—don’t bet against Quick.] Seems to me they came out of their encounter fairly even—sure, Quick Ben stole back his pebble, but, if not for Burn’s helpers, the Crippled God would have had Quick Ben in his grasp.

Neat work with the conversation between Dujek and Whiskeyjack—it’s a nice little recap of the personalities involved, the issues that are likely to be encountered, and drops in either reminders or new knowledge about such items as Brood’s hammer.

Awww, Korlat and Whiskeyjack. *gets all soppy* “I hear your heart in your words.”

Erikson chooses interesting language when he says, “Should you begin to see the spirit of Nightchill rising and that of Tattersail setting…” This brings to mind images of Tattersail being the sun and Nightchill the moon within Silverfox. Day and night. Light and shadow. It’s as though a conflict between utterly opposed elements will take place within Silverfox. [Bill: Nice.]

I delight in seeing Kruppe again. *grins* “Kruppe and the truth are lifelong partners, friend Coll! Indeed, wedded bliss—we only yesterday celebrated our fortieth anniversary, the mistress of veracity and I.”

And then I giggled out loud at this:

Kruppe was the first to lower himself into a chair—at the head of the makeshift table.

All those mammoth personalities within the command tent and Kruppe decides that it is fitting he should sit there.

Ooh, a quick reminder of the girl Challice, target of Crokus’s affections in Gardens of the Moon.

Okay, the Deck reading… let’s see how I do! This isn’t the first time we’ve seen the fact that the Obelisk is dominant—it was heard in Deadhouse Gates. We discussed the idea it might be related to Icarium. The new card holds everything together: Paran, the new Master, who has not awakened yet. Soldier of High House Death’s right hand to Obelisk—does that mean Mappo is the current holder of this position? Magi of Shadow—well, that simply has to be Iskaral Pust, right? I’m not too sure about Captain of High House Light or Hood’s Herald, however.

I can see precisely why others have said the Mhybe storyline is depressing and goes on a fair bit. We already KNOW that the Mhybe is dying, yet it is constantly re-emphasised.

Anomander Rake! *swoons* Welcome back! “He had stood then as he did now: tall, implacable, a sword emanating sheer terror hanging down the length of his back, his long, silver hair drifting in the breeze.”

He’s just SO cool! “His attention was a fierce pressure, power and threat, enough to make her softly gasp, her limbs weakening.” *fans herself*

And yet Caladan is willing to defy Rake:

“Decide what you will, Rake, but I will not countenance Dragnipur’s unsheathing in my camp.”

WHAT A SCENE! And no, my caps lock key was not pressed in error… I just LOVE this! Especially as Rake quests his power towards Silverfox and is impertinently slapped down.

This visit into the Finnest Azath reveals a few matters—the fact that each Azath will choose its Guardians, the fact that the Jaghut Tyrant Raest (so feared and reviled in our read of Gardens of the Moon) is now revealed to be a fully rounded character in his own right, the fact that a war has begun, and every conflict currently in progress is part of this greater war.

Here Paran’s role as Master is partly revealed:

“I can travel at will, it seems. Into each and every card, of every Deck that ever existed. Amidst the surge of wonder and excitement he felt ran an undercurrent of terror. The Deck possessed a host of unpleasant places.”

Oh my, this makes me unutterably sad:

“Oh my, they’ve outlasted their own gods. They exist in a world of dust in truth—memories untethered, an eternal existence… no end in sight.”

This increased background to Caladan Brood is welcome, and reveals much of the power and responsibility that allows him to stand toe to toe with someone as powerful as Anomander Rake. To have the fate of the world literally held in his hands is bound to affect a person.

Why does Crone love the Mhybe so?

Gosh, meetings and conversations and encounters of portent all, on the run up to the end of the chapter. I adore the way Erikson jumps swiftly from point to point and gives us a snippet before moving on. I like the quiet conversation between Brood and Rake—the innate respect and companionship of people long allied. And then the chat between Whiskeyjack and Quick Ben—the latter always mysterious, even to the former.

These two chapters have been an absolute deluge and I have drunk from it with delight—but I’m sure I missed an absolute ton. Readers—tell me what I missed! Tell me the hints and extracts you think I should carry forwards!

 

Bill’s Reaction to Chapter Five

It’s a nice break from the emotional toll of the prior chapter as well as the theory-heavy last few pages, not to mention a pretty heavy opening poem, to get the lighter touch of Envy and Toc. Not to mention the very funny image of Seguleh laying out a bath and setting out combs.

Here’s more of Erikson’s professional background as we get the fashioning of stone tools by, um, Tool. I read this before and seen it done on TV, and even so I still found it fascinating. By the way, as Toc watches him, Toc thinks Tool has “an artist’s hands,” which is a pretty obvious way to describe Tool’s deftness, but it’s also got a nice resonance as there’s an eventual connection with Tool and an artist later on.

In the same scene, I like Toc’s argument that magic “replaces technological advancement—it’s often a means of supplanting the progress of mundane knowledge.” It’s an interesting point in fantasy and can rationalize the whole medieval kind of setting we see so often in magic worlds. Other authors have done some neat work in showing technology marching side-by-side (sometimes at an equal pace, sometimes more slowly) with magic. We see that here as well with the references to the munitions and various alchemies, which in itself in our world acted as a transition between magic and science. And later we’ll see some more science and technology (talking humans here as opposed to say the K’Chain) and even meet an inventor who discusses the ethical implication of technology.

That said, Envy does a pretty nice job of taking Toc down a notch for not thinking fully enough on his own with regard to the idea. And I think sometimes that’s true of authors as well, who seem very content for that easy rationalization that magic precludes or stultifies technology/science and so they don’t need to bother with it. In my mind that’s a bit of an overstatement and I’d argue it especially depends upon the ease and prevalence of magic. But that’s going a bit afield….

I enjoyed Tool’s discussion of how the Imass have lots of names for stone, which reminds me of the debatable idea that the Inuit have lots of words for snow.

Okay, so then we get what could be termed an infodump via Tool on the backstory of Envy, Rake, Osric, and Brood. But again, to me this has less of an awkward feel because it’s a natural outgrowth of situation. In other words, I think of an “infodump” not as simply a block of information, but an awkwardly or clumsily placed block. It makes perfect sense that Toc asks these questions in this situation. In fact, it would make absolutely no sense for him not to ask these questions (the thing that drove me the most crazy about the show LOST was the utterly implausible and inexplicable lack of conversation among the characters. Sorry—it’s been a while since I could rant about that).

And now of course we find out the Malazan/Brood alliance has three unexpected allies—the “punitive army” of the Seguleh. I like the matter of factness that this gets stated. But it does raise a few questions. Do they see themselves as getting close enough to the Pannion Seer to kill him among his guards (probably easily done for three Seguleh) or do they really think they’ll march through armies? Given how Envy has overpowered them, are they naïve about the possibility that the Pannion could also wield magic against them, or arrogant to believe it won’t be effective, or arrogant but correct in that Envy’s power is so much greater than most? And does anyone else ever get an image of a bunch of Seguleh going up against a Malazan army, going all Indiana Jones and the Raiders of the Lost Ark Arab sword-guyish with sword spinning and whirling etc. and then the Malazans looking at each other then going all Indy on them by just lobbing a few munitions and blowing them the hell up? Anyone?

And anyone else want to see that fight between Rake and the Seguleh?

Just as an aside while we’re on the Seguleh, Mok’s line, “Seguleh who die fail . . . We spare no thoughts for the failed among us,” reminded me a lot of the Bloodguard in Steven Donaldson’s Covenant series. I seem to recall that same kind of cold eye cast on failure (not to mention they share the same kind of martial prowess, though the Bloodguard if I recall correctly didn’t use weapons—been a while).

I love the little double-take moments we get with this whole running Seguleh thing.

Tool, you did NOT just take down Senu so fast!

Senu, you did NOT parry Tool without even drawing your swords!

Tool, you did NOT just get parried by a 14-yr-old!

Thurule, you did NOT just get beat by a guy using only the flat of his blade!

Cracks me up….

Talk about full circle—back to the hill we see in Chapter Two (I think) of GoTM. With Hairlock falling to pieces, the Bridgeburners nearly wiped out… Ahhh, memories….

Good old Quick Ben. Always holding back a bit. And just how much does this guy know? And how? How does he know about all those prior Nightchills? The First Age of the Nathilog Wars? The Liberation of Karakarang? The Seti expelled from Feen?

Nice too that after we get the mention of Nathilog, we get it again from Dujek, who has read up on Brood in the Nathilog histories.

Interesting this little quiet strategy session between Dujek and Whiskeyjack. Are they discussing logistics earlier planned in the larger group strategy sessions? Or is this (i.e. Twist’s Moranth’s plans) something on their own?

If you didn’t already love Whiskeyjack (and really, why wouldn’t you) how could you not after, “I’ll not stand to one side in the butchering of a child . . . No matter what power or potential is within her.” And then tell me you don’t smile at both of them at the end of this conversation.

We’ve had other characters remark (I think, I might be flashing forward here) on Kellanved’s restraint with regard to his use of the T’lan Imass. Hearing of Dujek and Whiskeyjack’s relief in that restraint, and their discomfort in fighting alongside the T’lan Imass makes clear their fears with regard to Silverfox—their fear at what a child would do with such power. The same fears brought up by the conversation we segue into, when they discuss how Silverfox is draining so much life force to accelerate her move into adulthood so as to not only create a greater sense of authority but also “contain” her power. But quickly becoming a physical adult isn’t the same as gaining an adult’s experience, and, as the Mhybe says, “experience tempers.” Leaving Silverfox as “untempered power.” Though she does have an odd sort of collection of experiences: the questions are if she can integrate them, make use of them as experience and not simply a collection of memories, and if all/any of them perhaps shouldn’t be integrated—say perhaps the one with a “flashes of darkness . . . seething anger, a hunger for vengeance.”

I liked the Mhybe’s rumination on the kinship web—the way it gives sustenance and how poor Silverfox’s “kin” are mostly dead (that’s gotta suck). I wonder too if the Mhybe’s definition of the web might be too narrowly limited to bloodkin.

Ahh, Kruppe. Need I say more? (And if I did, a lot, lot more, than I’d be Kruppe.)

No surprise the Trygalle Trade Guild being used as a supplier; we’ve certainly seen their capabilities under some awful circumstances. And we’ll see even more such.

We’ve got another Deck read. The obvious aspects of course are Kalam as the new assassin of Shadow, Paran as the Master of the Deck (the “glue”) who has yet to wake to his potential, and the Whirlwind rising. We’ve got Obelisk “dominant,” a Captain of High House Light and Hood’s Herald, and some “grand deception.”

The Mhybe in her mind to Paran: “detachment is a flaw, not a virtue.” Another of those running themes throughout the series. Remember Whiskeyjack having to learn this very early in GoTM. And in that same thought, a nice reminder of where he’s been: “you hold so much within yourself, chained and in darkness.”

Love Crone’s reaction to Paran after she’s seen the bottom of the table. And Spindle’s as well.

I mentioned this the first time we saw Rake in GoTM, but does this guy make an entrance or what? By the way—great little simile there, describing him swooping down “like a piece of night torn loose.” But really, go back and reread his entrance scene; it’s worth it. If you’ve seen The Lion King (movie or musical), you’ll know there’s a scene when one of the hyenas talks about the power of the Lion King Mufasa and just his name makes her shiver. “Oooh, Mufasa. Say it again! It tingles me. Mufasa!” That’s Rake.

Talk about fraught with tension. Rake unsheathing Dragnipur. Brood unsheathing his hammer. Kallor, whose killed an entire continent. Quick Ben and his warrens. Silverfox (and Nightchill. And Tattersail. And “by the Abyss, another!” Artanthos—what, wait, Artanthos? Yes, Artanthos. Move along). Whiskeyjack. This is a nose bleed scene for sure. And who saves it? The love child of Lou Costello and William F. Buckley. Um, I mean Kruppe.

Then, after Kruppe’s diversion brings a momentary pause, Quick Ben (“just a soldier,” he says of himself) steps in to break up the tension. Talk about some supreme confidence—stepping into this morass of power.

Looks like Rallick and Vorcan are being nicely stored—odds on seeing them again at some point? Yep, pretty good.

Ahh, Jaghut Tyrant humor. These are the jokes people! Raest is here Thursdays, Fridays, and twice on Saturdays.

Once again, a good glimpse at Erikson’s background (I assume) coming into play as we see the Beast Hold hut made out of “mammoth” bones—something from our own early human history. And then the knowledge “blooms” in Paran’s mind: the Beast Hold, the spirit world of the Imass before the Ritual, now abandoned by them as they’ve shifted to Tellann—a warren born of the Ritual and linked not even to Death but to dust. (And how bad is it when Death seems to be the preferred alternative?) And some key lines as Paran’s muses on the tragedy of the T’lan Imass—“memories untethered, an eternal existence, no end in sight . . . so along for so long”—lines tied somehow in Paran’s mind to the Second Gathering.

Then onto Burn’s flagstone (the floor here nicely set up by what we witnessed via Fiddler’s group in DG) and the great image of the Chained God’s poison seeping down the chains into the skin and body of Burn. And then his realization (and answer to Quick Ben’s earlier question) that Burn chose to sleep, “to escape the prison of her own flesh, in order to do battle with the one who was killing that flesh . . . [making] of herself a weapon . . . a hammer.” And then finding Brood to wield it, a hammer that can break anything, even chains. Except of course that freeing the CG would wipe life from the world as much as Burn’s death would as he sought vengeance for all those millenia of pain. So Brood refuses his own goddess. Revelations thus in hand, Paran returns.

With a good question: who will ascend to those two ancient, long-forgotten thrones?

I love Quick Ben’s grudging understatement when Brood asks Paran to do something about the floating table: “I might be able to manage something” and Rake’s dry rejoinder: “Not simply a soldier, I see.” And then his slap down of Rake’s curiosity: “do not quest towards me, Son of Darkness. I value my privacy.” And then, curiously, Rake graciously accedes. He’s a classy guy. But don’t you just wonder what his “questing woulda found?”

Then the Mhybe hobbles off (note the details of the tribal remedies (the not working ones seemingly)—copper on her wrists and ankles. I know there have been lots of complaints regarding this storyline in the discussion of the previous chapter. And to be honest, I can understand it—it does go on a ways and is certainly depressing/oppressive and appears frequently. Myself, I could have lived with some judicious editing (scalpel, not an axe). But it is quite often moving, not only in its focus on her and Silverfox, but how it acts as a catalyst for others to show their compassion. And it pays off nicely. I’ll say that much. This scene between her and Crone and Korlat is I think one of the most moving scenes in the series. If it doesn’t read that way to you, that’s okay. Maybe imagining it as a movie scene with your favorite actors doing these lines and reactions. I see/hear her “She has stolen my life” ripped out of her throat in the same agonizing fashion as John Proctor’s “Because it is my name!” a la Daniel Day Lewis in The Crucible’s closing scene. Works for me. And now we’ve got Crone and Korlat on a suicide watch. Something to keep an eye on.

Once again, we get the sense of time and weight some of these characters carry around with them. “Almost twelve hundred years, this burden,” Brood says of carrying the choice of, as Paran says, killing the world or killing the goddess (and thus killing the world). And anybody else a bit unnerved that the guy whose choice it is sees people using the extra time he’s giving them “dying, waging wars and unleashing slaughter”? Wouldn’t you like to see a few more optimistic views of humanity from the guy who has to decide if it continues?

The conversation also brings up, I think for the first time (another one of those blur moments), the idea of sorcery disappearing from the world (something a few fantasy authors have tackled in their books) and whether or not that would be a bad thing. A concept we’ve been set up for by Toc and Envy’s earlier conversation (he’s good at structure, this Erikson guy).

So we’ve had some hints the Pannion is a lot more than it seemed and now we get some more direct ones here as Rake and Brood draw a line between the Pannion and the Crippled God.

Whiskeyjack. Kallor. Not exactly Crosby and Hope. Martin and Lewis. Butch and Sundance. Han and Chewy. Elwood and Jake. Tehol and Bugg. Well, you get the idea.

“I am not done with you.” File.

And oh my god did I love Quick Ben dumping that ass in a hole in the ground (and cracked up at his sudden departure when Kallor started climbing back out).

Speaking of file cabinets:

“What did the lost spirits in the barrow tell you?’

“Nothing. There, uh, weren’t any . . It was, uh, cleaned out recently . . . Someone or something gathered them up . . . Where are they?”

Where indeed?


Bill Capossere writes short stories and essays, plays ultimate frisbee, teaches as an adjunct English instructor at several local colleges, and writes SF/F reviews for fantasyliterature.com.

Amanda Rutter contributes reviews and a regular World Wide Wednesday post to fantasyliterature.com, as well as reviews for her own site floortoceilingbooks.com (covering more genres than just speculative), Vector Reviews and Hub magazine.

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13 years ago

Bill and Amanda,

Thank you very much for updating the disclaimer at the start of the post about trying to keep the comments spoiler free, and thanks to Tor for setup up a separate spoiler thread.

You guys are great!

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13 years ago

This re-read is becoming far too much of a highlight in my week. I find myself pining away at my desk at work until Wednesday, just waiting for Bill and Amanda can upload another post, and have begun checking Tor.com far more regularly to see the new comments in our Malazan threads. Here’s to hoping my boss doesn’t mind!

As for this week’s reading, our first chapter begins with a note about three of our Elder Gods, in this case meaning the three we met in the prologue. The focus seems to be securely on K’rul though, as while SoCN and Draconus are spoken of in the past tense, with K’rul the text looks to the future. “To walk among mortals, and make of your grief, the sweetest gift.” We’ll have to wait and see what meaning that may hold, but it’s something to keep in mind. As is the fact that Erikson chose to place this blurb here, of all places.

And then we return to Gruntle, who is happily reaping the rewards of an ill-spirited bet. I find his friendship with Stonny and Harllo both believable and hilarious. In fact, I’d argue that writing close friendships is one of Erikson’s best skills. Whether it be the pairs of characters you so often see in these novels, or larger groups, he really makes those relationships come alive on the page for the reader through simple dialogue rather than unnecessary exposition. I have to admit though: if I’d been in this situation, I’d have probably been dragging the carriage through the mud too.

As for Buke, who we meet shortly thereafter, I’m still somewhat torn. From what I remember of the character, much like Bauchelain and Korbal themselves, he felt somewhat out of place in this novel to me. He holds a rather interesting narrative for now, though, as he deepens the mystery and danger around that dark-garbed pair with his deeply held suspicions. His death wish gives him an interesting motivation, and I liked the bit of background it gave about natural dangers in Darujhistan, but I think the main reason I enjoy him as introduced is because we’re seeing him through Gruntle’s eyes. Through Gruntle, we don’t just see a man looking to join his departed family, we see a friend unable to move on from his tortured past. That sense of helplessness is something I’ve certainly felt in my own life, when seeing friends or family fall into dark spirals following the death of a loved one.

By the way, a random line caught my eye:

Gruntle winced. ‘Had my eye on Lethro, you know – went out on a contract and came back to find—’ ‘She’d gone and married someone else,’ Buke said, nodding.
‘Not just someone else.’ Gruntle scowled. ‘That bloated crook, Parsemo—’

Trying to avoid saying too much here, even if it’s not really a big plot-related spoiler, but are these the same people our as-of-yet-unseen thief friend will encounter in Toll of the Hounds? I’m referring to the scene with the cat and the wife, for those curious.

As for Stonny, I’ve always been a big fan of her as a character. Like Picker and Blend, she’s hardly the feminine type, but much more abrasive and surly in her tact. She’s got that “hard as cuendillar” thing going on, me thinks, but her unwillingness to show emotion only makes Gruntle’s easy reading of her demeanor all the more interesting.

Then we get a rather interesting scene with Quick Ben. A lot of hints both about him and the larger plot come from the witch he visits. “Ah, I sniffed Raraku, didn’t I?” and “Colour the coin of your questions, twelve-souls.” I find Quick Ben’s side of his conversation about Burn very fun as well, as he offers superstitious beliefs and the witch counters with scientific fact. Which is hilarious, when you realize the conversation is about a sleeping goddess. Two things though.

‘When the time comes, Adaephon Delat, call upon me.’

I don’t remember if/when this ever happened. So that’s something for me to look out for. Yay!

. . . she prefers the col. Strange. Most old people like heat and plenty of it . . .

I also don’t remember what significance this has. Obviously, hearing cold, I want to jump up and shout “Omtose Phellack!” like I was some kind of Jaghut Power Ranger, but you’d think if the witch was green and had tusks, Quick Ben would’ve noted it. . . . Oh God, I’m sorry, that analogy was horrible. And now I’m stuck imagining a sentai team where each of the Elder races is represented by a Power Ranger-style crime fighter. So yeah, there’s that.

. . . moving on. Back with Paran, we have a quick recap of a few events from Gardens of the Moon, as well as a brief overview of the Imperial method of dealing with new “acquisitions”. I’ll skim past the economics lesson, interesting as it is in this case, to jump right at the heart of the matter. Which in this case is another of my favorite Bridgeburners, Spindle. Also, welcome to the most disgusting piece of clothing you are likely ever to read about; the hair shirt. It’s what it sounds like. Ew. He’s got some interesting insights though; like the fact that a T’Lan Imass power, in this case Silverfox, is overpowering everyone at the meeting. Including ancient Kallor and the famed Caladan Brood, who can apparently level mountains.

I can’t be the only one who loves Paran’s thoughts on Tavore in this section either, can I? It’s like they’re teasing us with what we’re likely to see when we return to Raraku in book four.

No matter what, Tavore will take care of Felisin. That, at least, I can take comfort from . . .

*wibbles a little* And then of course he gets the crushing news himself, which doesn’t make things any better. His youngest sibling spared rape and death in exchange for . . . well, rape and a death of the spirit. Although thankfully such details couldn’t be included in Whiskeyjack’s message.

And then we jump to the heart of the matter; Tattersail. Whiskeyjack brushed the subject before, but they really get the awkwardness of the situation across well through Paran’s eyes here. I like how they set up a sense of danger between him and Rake because of his infiltration of Dragnipur, while also making the Andii their primary allies against Kallor where Tattersail is concerned. The harsh practicality of it is also in evidence; they need an ally in the other camp, and so they’re using Paran to bring Tattersail’s personality to the fore. Not exactly a romantic or kind notion, but one Paran accepts none the less.

The next section feels like Erikson is giving us a great big “WHY SO SERIOUS?” by throwing Bridgeburner antics at us. Not only does it serve as a way to learn a bit more about each of these “new-ish” members of the squad, but it’s also hilarious. Spindle, Trotts, Picker, Blend . . . I love ’em all, and in fact that only one I don’t remember making a particularly strong impression on me was Detoran. But hey, not everyone can be interesting, right?

As for what they find . . . well, that leads us to the next section, doesn’t it? I have to mention here that, of all of Erikson’s characters, for whatever reason I always found Paran to be the easiest to empathize. Now, I’ve never had a lover reincarnate as a seven year old girl, but I did see the Nicole Kidman movie Birth(read: creepy), and I have to say it sounds like it really sucks.

Leaving conversation about the T’Lan Imass’ impending involvement aside for now, we get to my favorite plot point in the series; Paran becoming Master of the Deck of Dragons. Just the idea of such a role sets the mind alight with possibility. The Deck, that predicts the future and reads the present, that is the power structure binding every god and ascendant across the width and bredth of the world . . . and he’s in charge of it. In effect, it should mean he’s the world’s referee, deciding and interpreting the rules all the gods have to follow . . . but right now he’s still just plain old Ganoes Paran. No more magic sword, no more meddling gods, just him. Now we just have to wait and see what that could really mean for him.

And with that rather startling revelation, we segue into the following chapter, where –

—that’s poetry isn’t it? I’m going to place my mind in my happy place and pretend it’s just a series of oddly broken paragraphs, and move on from there. Okay? Okay. Phew. Much better. In any case, this little poem brings up a rather crisp image that I can’t help to imagine as the first steps of the T’Lan Imass, as they emerged from the ritual that forever changed their fates. But the fact that Tool is its focus is a pretty handy transitionary, er, tool, given the characters kicking off the start of our next chapter. Hi Toc!
His exchanges with Envy are entertaining, as always, but it is their talk of Tool that draws my eye in these first few pages. The description of a T’Lan Imass weapon, enchanted to strip away every ward and protection of those who stand against it, shows the thought that went into their extermination of the Jaghut. They knew their enemy, and in the seeming simplicity of their fur and stone vestments and weapons, they crafted something as magically intricate as anything in the modern realm.

I do have to admit to not remembering how authentic Envy’s emotions were in his regard though. Obviously Toc, with his own self-flagellation about his scarred appearance, isn’t exactly the most reliable narrator where a woman like her is concerned. But honest emotion without subterfuge? It just doesn’t seem in character for the Envy I have in my mind, and so maybe I’ll have to compare and contrast my view of her from the end-game to the view of her here and come up with a new, truer image.

And after a brief lesson on archaic fletching, the extensive detail of which no doubt harkens back to Erikson’s former profession, we get our first real discussion of the Seguleh. On the one hand, I want to dislike then; they’re the stereotypical badass warrior society. On the other hand . . . they’re really badass. Mainly though, the effort that Erikson put into developing their strange customs and culture makes them stand out from other examples of this trope. In this case we’ve seen Senu, a fourteen year old, cause the hundreds of thousands of years old Tool to comment on his skill. And he’s not even ranked! What’s more, their idea of a punitive army is three people. THREE!

One aspect of their culture I do find rather interesting is the way they readily embrace any foreigner who proves themselves their superior with a blade. Anomander Rake, as well as another character we’ve yet to meet yet, both hold places among the Seguleh top ten, yet even then their rank is a demand, and not an honor.

And of course, there’s envy, solving problems with violence and lots of magic again. I don’t think it takes a large stretch of the imagination to figure out why she and Rake went their separate ways. Even after hearing that they spent a good deal of time traveling together, I have a hard time imagining it for the polar opposites their current personalities mark them as. Although, I suppose, that could have been part of the appeal. ;D

The following conversation, between Whiskeyjack, Quick Ben and Mallet, is where I think I clued in on the Sister of the Cold Nights mystery my first time through . . . although I wish I’d made the connection earlier, as Kallor’s scenes in last week’s chapters have a lot of extra depth with that information. The meeting with Dujek has a lot of interesting nuggets as well, including Caladan Brood’s link to Burn. Really, these conversations serve to build upon all we’ve learned recently and expound the intrigue. And they’re quite effective, right up until . . .

A slippered foot probed daintily downward, wavering until it touched the ground.

Kruppe! You can always spot him from the adjectives and adverbs used uniquely for him. I don’t think anyone else has both probed daintily and wavered in the sentence in all of the Malazan Books of the Fallen. His introduction should ramp up my interest in the Mhybe’s story considerable though; I love his interaction with her, especially his initial dismay after seeing the change Silverfox had wrought in her. And of course he immediately knows the how and why of it as well. Tricky, tricky fat man.

Coll, Murillio . . . I don’t remember Meese or Challice’s father being in this scene though. Should be interesting to remember along with everyone else what role, if any, they play here. Lots of small details cropping up here as well, such as Challice’s marriage and the (chronological) introduction of the Trygalle Trade Guild. My favorite aspect of this scene, Kruppe’s return aside, is Coll’s disposition though. After seeing the drunkard he was in Gardens of the Moon, seeing Coll back in control of his life, using the second chance that Rallick and Murillio won for him, really touched me. He’s as different as night and day, and for the better at that.

Moving on the reading . . . I can just barely make sense out of this one, but usually it seems pretty much incomprehensible to me. This time it seems to be reading the field in Seven Cities; Obelisk represents time, and in this case, Icarium. Soldier of High House Death . . . I want to say this is Fiddler, as I can’t think of anyone else linked to Icarium to fit that role, even if I can’t see why Fiddler would be in High House Death at this point. And of course we know the Magi is Pust, and we know all about his grand deception. The comment about the Captain of High House Light and Hood’s Herald is the hardest for me to place. The easy way out is to say it’s referring Coltaine, or maybe Heboric, but there’s another character we’ve yet to learn more about who could be generating that card in Raraku. Anyone else have any ideas?

And I have to say, I laughed aloud upon re-reading Crone’s exit from the tent. Going from her looking into the new card’s eyes, then a couple pages later in Paran’s scene she comes flying out of nowhere, shouts “YOU!” like he stole her bike, and then flies off without a word of explanation. Absolutely ridiculous, in all the best ways. As is Picker’s attempt to play off the table’s “discovery”.

Oh God, enter the White Face Barghast. Admittedly, I really enjoy this part of the story in this novel, but the White Face Barghast have, for the most part, been spoiled for me since then with few exceptions. The focus on Trotts is nice, although Paran can’t be the only one to balk at the idea of him negotiating.

And then Rake’s arrival, and the sudden disintegration of common decency as everyone seems to lose their heads over Silverfox. Rake and Kallor against the world, and that has to be the last thing anyone would ever expect to happen. Sides are quickly taken, violence seems imminent . . . and then the Kruppe hits the fan, and we get our first taste of what being the Master of the Deck might actually mean. Teleporting and passing out. Yep, cool power there. Er, sort of.

And now we meet Raest! I mean really meet him. Before he was really just trying to kill everybody. I really didn’t expect to see him again my first time through, but he made a very unsettling face to welcome Paran into ascendancy. A good choice, in my mind; the reader is unsure if Paran is really safe here, despite all the assurances of the contrary. And the fact that this is our first brush with Jaghut humor doesn’t help either, with lines like “And if I refuse?” “Then I kill you.” Did I mention that I love Jaghut humor, by the way? The running joke seems to be it’s the main reason why they’re such a solitary race. XD

Re: The Hold of Beasts. Keep those two thrones in mind, and see if you can’t figure out its meaning. Worth three points, this one. For the sake of discussion, I find Paran’s reflection on the abandoned realm somewhat sobering as well. Abandoned by its worshipers and gods alike; an empty, primal place forgotten by nearly all. It makes a very striking image.

The truth of Burn, and Brood’s connection to her, is also a very interesting snippet. To have the power within you to end what could very well be some sort of total apocalypse building within Burn’s flesh . . . but to know the cure is nearly as horrifying as the disease. To have to hold that choice in mind, day after day, know the goddess had placed all her hopes in your decision. That’s a heavy responsibility, and explains much of Brood’s temperament, I think.

And of course, through all these sections lie Paran’s exploration of his new power. Portals and gateways, instantaneous travel between realms. Either through the spirit, as we saw with his collapse, or in flesh, as we saw in his sudden arrival. What more he can do we’ll have to wait to see, but despite all his claims to the contrary, or maybe even because of them, I think we can all agree he’s the right man for the job. Unambitious and reluctant, he’s exactly what an arbiter should be, and in effect that seems to be the role lined up for him. Soldier, maybe, but it is hardly the only description that can be given to the Master of the Deck.

Okay, I admit, I’m already enjoying the Mhybe a lot more. As much as I like Korlat, she just wasn’t doing it for me, but the interactions with Kruppe earlier, and now Crone, are really drawing me into her story all over again. I have to wonder if Crone’s empathy comes from their shared purpose though; retainers of power, and Crone knows as well as the Mhybe that if the entity the hold it for can reclaim that power, and their lives, if given the chance.

Interesting tidbits from Rake and Brood’s conversation. Chaos in the Pannion Domin, chaos in Tennes, and the Crippled God behind it all. Suddenly, this war has an added layer of depth, one that we will soon explore more fully. In the meantime, Kallor comes by to pretend he’s the center of attention, and Quick replies with a simple “MEEP MEEP!” before going all Looney Toons on his posterior. Another important quote about Quick Ben comes up as well; “You, wizard, are a hoarder of souls . . .”

And we end on the set up for this next phase of the story, and the rather humorous event of Quick Ben sacrifice a goat on the wrong barrow. I can’t remember off-hand what the missing Rhivi spirits signified, if anything other than their dissatisfaction with this alliance, but I can’t wait to find out all over again.

stevenhalter
13 years ago

:Jaghut humour:

I weep a river of tears for your plight, mortal. Ah, we have arrived.

You’ve got to love Jaghut humour. For first timers, we’ll see that Jaghuts have an ‘odd’ sense of humour.

stevenhalter
13 years ago

: I also really like the magic here having many paths for its use. Like you said, too often its a one size fits all sort of thing.

Avatar
13 years ago

Raest has really missed out on his true life’s calling with that whole Tyrant gig. He could have been the best stand up comedian in the world.

We haven’t even gotten yet to his *really* funny lines.

Avatar
13 years ago

Compassion seems to be an overall theme in this book…

stevenhalter
13 years ago

The scene where Kallor is egging on Rake to slay Silverfox holds a number of interesting items.
First, notice that it is the ancient ascendents who are all getting themselves into a snit. Then, Whiskeyjack plants himself as being
unequivocally against the slaying of a child (no matter what she actually is).
Tensions continue to mount when again humans enter the picture. First, flying Kruppe, then chained Paran, and finally QB with words of wisdom.
So, what we have is humans acting from compassion and wisdom taking relieving the tension from ancients (who should know better). Reminding them of where the correct path lies.
Really, a recapitulation of many of the themes of the whole series here in this one scene.

Avatar
DRickard
13 years ago

“Indiana Jones and the Raiders of the Lost Ark “? Look, you
whippersnapper: I don’t care what the marketing people say, that movie’s title is simply “Raiders of the Lost Ark”!
Of course, I’ll almost forgive that for that great description of Kruppe: “The love child of Lou Costello and William F. Buckley”! Oh mercy!

Avatar
13 years ago

You know, I’m not entirely surprised Amanda threw in references to Stephanie Meyer and Jean Auel. For women of my mother’s generation (which Amanda isn’t part of), Auel is like a less virulent, more character honest Meyer – with a writing pace slower than that of G.R.R. Martin too.

Avatar
13 years ago

Note: The summary of events will be free of spoilers and we’re going to try keeping the reader comments the same. A forum thread has been set up for outright Malazan spoiler discussion.

:
I thought we had this settled pretty well, so I’m a little surprised at this statement.

This doesn’t seem to combine well well with what you stated in your last reply about ‘certain levels of feeling about what is spoiling’. Has that policy changed because TOR slapped you guys on the wrist? If that is so, they’re killing this reread. (As I said before, this book is 10 years old, and Amanda is asking for spoilers, even in this very post ;-) )

In any case, I don’t think I’ve spoilt much here, and I will remain posting the way I have done so far. I certainly don’t intend to start posting on the forums, and if readers don’t like that they are free to skip my posts from now (that was my warning :p ;-) )

Now, back to today’s chapters:

Rake wonders what is being hidden from him and as he reaches for his sword, Brood reaches for his hammer and Whiskeyjack raises his own sword. Just then, Brood’s table appears flying overhead with Kruppe hanging from it.

Kallor steps in and Quick Ben says he’s not part of the conversation. Kallor threatens Quick, who makes a hole under Kallor’s feet, then leaves. As do the others.

Two more scenes you want to see on screen. :D

Bill:
And now of course we find out the Malazan/Brood alliance has three unexpected allies—the “punitive army” of the Seguleh. I like the matter of factness that this gets stated. But it does raise a few questions. Do they see themselves as getting close enough to the Pannion Seer to kill him among his guards (probably easily done for three Seguleh) or do they really think they’ll march through armies? Given how Envy has overpowered them, are they naïve about the possibility that the Pannion could also wield magic against them, or arrogant to believe it won’t be effective, or arrogant but correct in that Envy’s power is so much greater than most?

I may be wrong, but I seem to recall Envy’s magical control over the Seguleh wasn’t as strong as she thought. So maybe they’re not that arrogant…
( IIRC Mok tells Envy so later on, but that they went along, since they were heading towards the same goal )

The three Seguleh as a punitive army, and being serious about it is funny enough in its own way, in any case.

Just as an aside while we’re on the Seguleh, Mok’s line, “Seguleh who die fail . . . We spare no thoughts for the failed among us,”

Compare this to how the T’lann Imass look at this: ‘T’lann Imass who fail no longer exist’ …

On the BB stealing their table back, brilliant scene. To be continued…

Avatar
13 years ago

To me, a spoiler-free reread (as announced now) seems impossible. I thought some consensus had arrived about the idea of avoiding huge spoilers while discussing minor ones (although there will be discussions about whether events are minor or huge from time to time).
Nice aspect of this reread is the main focus (chapter by chapter, but with – if neccessary – links to the rest of the series), where I always get lost in the Malaz Forum :-).

By the way: nice we can send in questions about DG! Looking forward to the answers.

Avatar
13 years ago

ZetaStriker @2:

. . . she prefers the col. Strange. Most old people like heat and plenty of it . . .

I also don’t remember what significance this has.

I don’t think I’m spoiling anything here if I say that the eventual resolution of a very thorny plot conundrum is only resolved when Quick remembers this very important point.

Avatar
13 years ago

Fiddler,

The way I understood the new disclaimer is as a continuation of the recent discussion we’ve all had here. We seem to be in general agreement as to the level of “acceptable” spoilers, while keeping certain key events/revelations purposely in the dark so we don’t ruin those scenes for new readers.

The reason I like the new disclaimer is that someone who stumbles on this re-read (i.e. not a “regular”), seeing the old disclaimer might reasonably think that all spoilers are fair game, much as it is in the WoT re-read. The new disclaimer lets the newcomers know that there is at least an attempt to keep the comments spoiler free. And the disclaimer does say there will be references to “narrative arcs that run across the entire series, and foreshadowing.”

That’s the way I read it, anyway (and as you said, Amanda herself is asking for minor spoilers, but pointing out some hints). If there’s really a change in policy, I’m sure Bill, Amanda or someone from Tor will come along to explain.

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13 years ago

I just received this message when I posted a prefectly innocuous response to ZetaStriker’s quote about not remembering what part the conversation about old people preferring heat to cold play later on in the story:

“Your conversation has been flagged as spam and submitted to the moderator for approval.”

I’ve got to say that either this is censorship run amok or someone in Tordot has written a really crappy code for a spam detector.

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13 years ago

:
Rake does make the greatest entrances ever. We first saw this in GotM with his first visit to Baruk. On that occasion I thought the effect, an overwhelming feeling of pressure and weight, was felt only in the Baruk household. Here we see an even more pronounced effect,with his entrance being felt by everyone in a huge military camp. And we’ll see the effect even greater still in TtH. I wonder if it is the increasing number of souls within the sword causing the increasing effect.

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13 years ago

Yeah, I’m definitely with everyone else on Rake’s flashiness. Amanda’s fangirling, while humorous, was also entirely appropriate. XD

As for the spam thing, from what I’ve seen, most people seem to say that it was from quoting another post. But I’ve never experienced that issue myself. I am insterested in hearing what your answer was though!

In other news, Quick Ben is losing to Perrin on Suvudu right now. We need to fix this. I mean . . . Perrin’s a great character and all, but against Quick Ben? Besides, the next fight, Quick Ben vs. Vin(Mistborn), would actually be a great one. But Perrin vs. Vin is just as one-sided.

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13 years ago

Like I said, some code genius on Tordot has written a really crappy spam detector code, if it flags quoting another poster as spam. I’ve seen a few comments on the WoT re-read of posters becoming pissed-off about the spam filter, so someone better take another look at it.

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13 years ago

ZetaStriker,
Here’s the suvudu cage match link for those interested:
http://sf-fantasy.suvudu.com/2011/03/cage-match-2011-quick-ben-versus-perrin-aybara.html

It doesn’t surprise me that Perrin is leading in the poll (with WoT being more pupular than Malazan), but I like how the expected fight scene is written in such a one-sided way. Indeed, who would send “a glorified blacksmith and a pack of wolves?—against a High Mage with access to twelve Warrens!” :-)

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Toster
13 years ago

i love that every jaghut we meet inevitably seems to be an inveterate jokster. even Jhenna in NoK was kinda funny. maybe..

Great chapters here. i remember loving the envy quest party so much that i wanted it to go forever. it doesn’t, of course, but i also love the way it ends up. very extreme.

@@@@@ ZStriker

This is the funniest thing i have read in a while:

“In the meantime, Kallor comes by to pretend he’s the center of attention, and Quick replies with a simple “MEEP MEEP!” before going all Looney Toons on his posterior”

QB is the roadrunner – you can’t catch him!

that suvudu match is gonna be hard to win, but i think we can do it team. perrin will stall out and QB will get steadier votes in the long run.

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HArai
13 years ago

Alisonwonderland@17: Yeah, it seems that the simple act of using their quote function results in spam blocking. As you say, the spam filter is not really at an acceptable standard at the moment.

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13 years ago

@10 — “I may be wrong, but I seem to recall Envy’s magical control over the Seguleh wasn’t as strong as she thought. So maybe they’re not that arrogant…”

I think your conclusion is right — they have a good sense of what they can do. But fight Envy and her control isn’t one of ’em…

Irene
13 years ago

Hi Guys,

Just to be clear: whatever definition of “spoiler-free” you guys have organically grown into is fine with us. We placed a full-on spoiler thread in the forums for anyone that wanted to dig deeper into future plot points. Generally readers do a good job of keeping each other honest, and that’s always the best way to go…just wanted to carve out a little more room for ya’ll.

Spam filters: Yes. We hate them. We fight with them constantly. And they do seem to be particularly bad at the moment. I see that targeting quoted text is also listed in our bug report thread. I’ll have that looked at tomorrow.

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HArai
13 years ago

shalter@7: My reading was that the others were over-reacting based on Rake’s admitted penchant for solutions with “finality”. Rake didn’t appear to be willing to jump to conclusions in any direction.

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13 years ago

I did not realize it before (and forgot about them), but the scenes of the compassionate Crone link in on a deep level to the nature of the fallen god.

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13 years ago

Ah, I love the scene with Quick Ben dropping Kallor into a hole in the ground. So satisfying!

I was a little surprised by Rake’s quickness to draw Dragnipur, both because he seemed to be leaping to judgement -very- quickly, and because Brood had warned him not to do that.

jtmeijer@27: That’s an interesting point. This is my 3rd time reading MOI (and 2nd reading of the full series), but I can’t recall if there is ever any explanation for why Crone is so fond of the Mhybe – it seems to me that it is somehow different than the compassion Korlat feels, so I’m glad to see someone else seeing something more here than simple empathy.

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13 years ago

Ok (and thanks Bill for bringing it up), we have a second reference to an abscence of “finality” with regards to the sword (and evidence of that lack back in GotM when Paran escaped it). So, Paran escaped via an intentional design flaw? We know by now that the swords creator is trapped within. The designed “flaw” is not available to him???????????

I totally agree with Amanda, the description of Anomander in MOI is significantly more awe inspiring than the one in GotM. But “epicanthic?” Had to go all the way to Google Images to figure that out.

Korlat’s allegiance to Rake over all others was interesting.

There is a reference (or 2) to QB’s communication with those in Capustan, but it is unclear how this communication is accomplished.

And Toc … reading about him in MOI is a totally different experince the second time through … “You cannot step twice into the same river.”

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13 years ago

Good Old Satan,

Paran was never chained inside the sword. He entered there via his link to the Hounds (who *were* chained there, having just been slain by Dragnipur). As the only free entity in the sword, Paran managed to find a way to free the two Hounds.

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13 years ago

Amir,

Thanks for the clarification. So, … so far, the lack of “finality” of the sword has only impacted the hounds (not Paran)? and only as a result of Paran’s actions? Hmmmm!

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13 years ago

You guys don’t have any questions about DG? ->
http://www.tor.com/blogs/2011/03/ask-steven-erikson-your-deadhouse-gates-questions

Don’t make me ask everything and then complain that I want the attention centered on me ;)

If you are curious ask your questions.

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13 years ago

Good Old Satan @@@@@ 29:

My impression was that Dragnipur’s lack of ‘finality’ is just that its victims, in some form, survive being killed by it. A sensible design feature if prophecy says you’re going to find yourself on the wrong end of it. I don’t know if Paran’s relatively easy entry and exit was due to his future position as Master of the Deck (if applicable back in GotM) or just his not being chained there.

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13 years ago

Amanda: I didn’t make this connection until you asked the question…
Why is crone so sympathetic to the Mhybe?
Remember where the Great Ravens come from?
The Mhybe is the epitome of suffering. Connection??

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13 years ago

I have some things I want to say about the chapters, but I wanted to respond to some of the comments first (kinda backwards, I know). Just want to add my input (again) about what I think needs to be allowed on this forum…

fiddler@10 – I would encourage you to keep posting here. I appreciate the insights and observations the Malazan vets provide. I haven’t finished the whole series yet, so I’m reluctant to go on the spoiler page/forum. But, I think we’ve assessed over the last few posts that most newbies (at least the ones who post) have moved beyond the reread’s pace, so talking about minor in-book spoilers isn’t that big a deal. Plus, we need to know what to keep adding to that fireproof file cabinet all of the stuff that Bill and the other Malazan vets tell us to…

Amir@13 – yes, I think this will help clarify for any non-regular to not overspoil. I think it should remain up there, but we as a group should continue as is…

Irene@23 & Billcap@24 – thanks for the clarification. We definitely don’t want to lose our Malazan vets’ input. And I’m also looking forward to when Bill starts to point out more (and more detailed/specific) series wide arcs and relevant info, as he mentioned he would a few posts ago…

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13 years ago

Shalter@7 – re: Ascendants as instigators – a really good observation. I think this is a good reminder that just because a character is long lived doesn’t necessarily make them wise.

Actually, your observation is an interesting contrast with Korlat, Mhybe & Brood’s opinion in Scene 5 of the same Chapter, that Silverfox is “untempered” and might act and abuse her power due to her lack of life experience. Kallor has eons of life experience and he’s not a good example of restraint. Even Rake unsheathed Dragnipur (and may have used it) essentially because someone didn’t want him digging all in their business.

Zetastriker@16 – Yeah, I’m a WoT fan first & foremost, but come on! There is no way that Perrin could best Quick Ben. I even think the “Well, if Perrin could get QB in T’A’R” arguments are weak. Come on folks; vote for QB!

stevenhalter
13 years ago

KiManiak@36:Exactly, long life, power and experience do not equal a tendency to not use that power either wrongly or precipitously.

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13 years ago

Two incredibly well written Chapters full of information, story development, and conflict, and culminates in 2 super weapons almost being unleashed by and on 2 companions who have known each other for eons. Plus, all of the info we learn about Paran and Silverfox and all the possibilities that these discoveries open up; well, there’s the potential to talk about a lot.

2 observations right now:

1). The scene where Dujek tells Paran about his siblings. The first time I read this, I only observed Paran’s guilt and what I perceived to be Dujek’s sorrow at seeing Paran blame himself for “The cull, the rapes, the murders, the deaths of my parents and all that Felisin must now endure.”

This time, I factored in what the reader currently knows (and Paran doesn’t) that Dujek’s army’s split from the Empire is a sham, and looked at it from the informed Dujek’s perspective.

Dujek just told his Captain that his family was irreparably harmed due to Tavore’s actions; actions which were in response to her perception that she needed to salvage something from Ganoes’ betrayal to the Empire. But Dujek knows that that the betrayal is just a façade. What if Dujek was feeling the same guilt (if not more) that Ganoes was articulating that he felt?

When Paran is stating, “‘The children of my parents are, one and all, capable of virtually anything… perhaps we are monsters in truth,'” maybe Dujek is affected because it’s really his actions that have allowed Ganoes’ family to be destroyed; and that maybe Dujek realizes that he and the Empress are the actual “monsters” in this regard?

The text says that “Paran did all he could to ignore the quiet grief in Dujek’s eyes.” What if that quiet grief was actually a representation of Dujek’s guilt at knowing how he was complicit in the destruction of the Parans (and the other nobles that Tavore culled, for that matter)?

Dujek has shown himself to be a man of honor and integrity; I wonder if he felt any responsibility? I’m curious if we get to see if this addressed in future books. Does Ganoes ever confront Dujek? Or get the opportunity to confront the Empress and hear her side of things, like Kalam did in DG? I’d like to read that scene…

2). A few folks have commented on Spindle’s reading from the Deck of Dragons in Chapter 5, Scene 7 once they factored in the new card. It resonated with me the first time I read it, yet has elicited a different reaction in this, my second read of this book.

During my initial read, I remember getting all excited thinking that Kalam must have Ascended (since Spindle identifies him as The Assassin in High House Shadow) as of the end of DG by agreeing to stay in the Shadow realm and train the 1300 kids. I didn’t think that we had met any of the other cards Spindle had mentioned (Soldier of Death, Magi of Shadow, Captain of Light, Herald of Death) and figured we’d learn who some if not most of them are by the end of the book.

(Minor spoiler alert warning; since the “whiteout” doesn’t work for me)

I’ve completed HoC and just started MT, and I am rereading MoI as I also continue to read ahead. In reading this section a second time, I still don’t think we get a clear idea of who all these “players” are (I think as of the end of HoC we only learn the Herald of Death and the Captain of Light, and we can speculate on the Magi of Shadow, and it doesn’t seem that the Assassin of Death has changed at all), and I’m now hoping this isn’t one of those sections that you thought would be solved quickly but instead ends up dragging through several books before being mentioned as an afterthought or in the Glossary (like Asmodean’s murder in WoT).

(End of minor spoiler)

However, Erikson has done an excellent job of building this universe and hinting at things or dropping casual references and asides that end up paying major dividends in future chapters or books, so the man has definitely earned the benefit of the doubt. I’m just saying; I had kind of forgotten about this part until I reread it. And then, I remembered the impact it had on me during my initial read, and compared it to how I felt about it now.

I’ll just have faith that when I do my next reread (probably after I finish the whole series) it will all fall into place. Erikson has definitely earned my trust…

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13 years ago


In my opinion, the Deck of Dragon can represent someone with a card, without this person actually holding a position in a house. Kalam is not the Assassin of High House Shadow. But he (or rather what he is planning to do) is important enough too the larger scheme of things, to appear in the Deck of Dragons, and what other card could represent him better? Anyway, that is how I see this, others diagree, as far as I remember ;-)

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13 years ago

@@@@@ Kah-thurak 39
nice summary, that’s how I see it as well (95% of the time :-)). For example, while Kalam gets the card of Assasin of Shadow here, in another book it could be given to someone else.
@@@@@ KiManiak 38
during the series there will follow more readings and usually I ‘get’ just half of the references or so. It is kind of a sport to catch in that book who are mentioned, but I think mostly it stays unclear for some of them (it is still Erikson, don’t expect everything to be spelled out for us :-))

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13 years ago

38
I’m with Kah-thurak @39 that the cards don’t necessarily mean that the persons hold that position in the house.
I think that we have seen the fulfillment of the reading in DG.
Magi of Shadow and the the grand deception is the false trail on the path of hands by Iskaral Pust.
Obelisk and Soldier of Death are Icarium and Mappo.
Captain of Light and Hood’s Herald is a tough one. It could be Coltaine as he is the hope for the malazan refugees. But I think it is Baudin. He gives hope to Felisin. See her feelings at his death.
And Kalam as Assasin of Shadow because of his plan to kill Laseen.

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13 years ago

So how can we post questions for SE about DG if we can’t find that thread? Shouldn’t it be listed on the main Malazan page?
HELP!!

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13 years ago

@Tek
The link is at the top of this post ;-)

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Toster
13 years ago

http://www.tor.com/blogs/2011/03/ask-steven-erikson-your-deadhouse-gates-questions

there’s the link again.

regarding deck readings and positions, mostly you’ve all got it right. receiving a card, or being referred to by a card in a reading doesn’t mean that you hold that position in the house, and even if you hold a position in a house, a card that more accurately reflects your intentions and actions may come up for you in a reading. also, holding a position in a house does not automatically equal being an ascendant.

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13 years ago

Kah Thurak@39, SamarDev@40 and Aldric@41 – Thanks for the reminder. Come to think of it, when Tattersail did her DoD reading in GotM for Tayschrenn, they didn’t interpret it so literally. Okay, deck readings are symbolic.

With that perspective, then I would argue (with my limited knowledge of events only up to HoC and not of the whole series, as a qualifier) that the Captain of Light may be someone else we’ve met/heard of in DG or this book. Maybe a certain mysterious High Mage we met in DG (and see a lot more in HoC), or his father who’s mentioned in passing in MoI?

I think that either of those two are engaged in actions that “hold out some hope.” I also think the timelines run somewhat concurrently between the reading and (at least one of) these character’s actions. Following that interpretation, Hood’s Herald could be a certain Napan warleader, or one of his allies. Again, it seems the concurrent timelines would work.

Although, this does bring up the question about whether one’s reading of the DoD only applies to events directly impacting the reader, individuals he’s directly/indirectly associated with and/or events in the reader or the reader’s associates’ proximity? Or can the reading be about major events that the reader will only indirectly be affected by, and that could occur leagues (or continents) away?

Basically, would a DoD adept get a reading for what affects him or his friends/family/loved-ones, or get a reading that can impact his world? Depending on this answer, then I could see the Assassin representing Kalam, while the other characters representing Mappo, Icarium, Pust, the mysterious High Mage and/or that Mage’s father.

I know I need to keep on reading and more answers will be revealed and this will (almost) all make sense. These books are so good; but they’re definitely not a quick read. :-)

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13 years ago


Using DoD for “Deck of Dragons” is a little odd, as it usuall means “Dust of Dreams” around here ;-)

As to your questions about the Deck readings… best you ask them off Steven Erikson ;-)

Somtimes the deck readings are “symbolic” sometimes they seem to point to the actual holders of the positions the cards represent. How this works for adepts who are not involved in world shattering events, I have no idea.

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13 years ago

New article by Steve:
http://lifeasahuman.com/2011/arts-culture/on-writing/steven-eriksons-notes-on-a-crisis-xi-show-dont-tell/

About how he deals with exposition, info-dumps and all other “show don’t tell” situations. It’s actually quite straightforward because you can see clearly that what he thinks is reflected in the books.

I wonder, though, if there’s more to this. Memories of Ice is one of the most “tell” of his books and yet it’s one of the favorites (that ‘reassuring’ part has some truth).

I’m also thinking that this topic could be far more complex. DF Wallace tried in some occasions to put a kind of “total awareness” on the page, describing minutely every object in a room (for example), freezing time and merging in the flux of someone’s thoughts. It’s a bottomless pit. But even this exercize had nothing of the “superfluous” and every word was once again essential.

So, in a way, that stripping of parts is also an “action”, in the sense that you write some meaning in what you see, and give it a deliberate structure.

In this, I think the point of view becomes crucial, as you aren’t seeing reality, but instead that exact partial point of view and the limited sense it sees. Or: the meaning is as much in what’s visible, as in what’s unseen.

stevenhalter
13 years ago

The “hole in the ground” is a great QB tactic. Everthing primes you to expect some earth shattering, soul devouring sorcery. Nope–open hole, opponent falls in. Great.

We’ll see this again, eventually, to good effect.

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13 years ago

Sorry for the silence, guys. I’ve been having some connection problems over the last few days, but that’s fixed now.

:
Thanks for the heads up. The missing word ‘major’ in the spoiler phrase was what made me wonder.

:
Feel free to steal the show. ;-) I’ve been thinking about questions to ask, but based on DG, I just don’t have any questions related to it. I’ll wait until the post MOI-session.

About QB dropping Kallor into a hole: that certainly has some Roadrunner/Wile E Coyote flavour in it…

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13 years ago

The “Even easier to make a hole in the Ground” scene is definitly one of my favourites. I allways makes me laugh :-)

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13 years ago

We get a lot of info about Burn but I’m curious to know what effect Burn going to sleep had on the world. It had to be something major to warrant a reset of the calendar.

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13 years ago

The part of the mythology about Burn and K’rul is another I have not yet placed in the greater puzzle, so I was anticipating to reread that scene between Quick Ben and the old seer.

The overall idea I got when I read it was that Burn, as a spirit of the earth sleeps as a natural state. Her dreams are our life. She dreams of us.

But in spite of how fascinating and poetic this idea is, the timeline contradicts everything (and even if the timeline is not to be trusted, here we have elements that are too obvious to be ignored). The problem is that Burn begins sleeping 120.000 years AFTER the Crippled God falls. So “sleeping” is neither her normal state, nor it seems linked to certain cycles, as we know that the story of the world extends beyond those events (so the world definitely doesn’t “end” when she wakes up, it existed even before she started to sleep, seemingly unaffected).

During the dialogue there’s a nice interplay between belief and “science”:

“Burn stirs towards wakefulness.”
“So it is said.”
“And that destruction would be visited upon all life were she to awaken.”
“So it is said.”

Then comes the almost “scientific” explanation that I’m not re-quoting. My difficulty is in figuring out if the old seer is dismissing the myths or simply explaining them as basically true (the outcome being similar even if the “myth” is dressed differently). Yet what Quick Ben describes (Earth shaking/Burn stirring) is not a state that pertains to Burn *sleeping*. It’s just the natural state of the land, always.

If this tale was contained within Burn’s dream, then the myth would easily contain the explanation given. But once again we know that the tale stretches far beyond Burn’s sleep, so what is that makes a distinction before and after Burn’s sleep? That’s what I can’t figure out.

How are Burn’s dreams related to us (or the characters there)? What happened when she started sleeping?

Two more aspects come into play. One is thematic and fairly straightforward. Burn is an “amoral” force. We could think as much since Burn is listed in the Deck of Dragons as Obelisk, Unaligned. But beside the specific role, Burn also impersonates “nature” in general, and the theme of healing. The theme of this book.

Go read again: http://www.stevenerikson.com/index.php/commentary-endgame-vol-1-and-2-by-derrick-jensen/

That’s a cypher that Erikson generously offered :)

The land that heals at the beginning of the Prologue, but also generalized here:

“We can thrive, or we can destroy ourselves, it matters not to her – she will simply birth another brood and it begins again.”

But also the idea (coming also in that article) that everything can regenerate and renew. That cycles will repeat. Same for the continent that Kallor incinerated: it becomes a jungle. Nature returns and reclaims.

The idea of the neutrality of Burn is one I’ve seen repeated exactly in my book on the Kabbalah I was reading.

See this:

First Method: Nature
Hence, although He watches over the existence of reality with wondrous wisdom, yet He Himself is mindless, and does all that senselessly. If there had been any reason and feeling in Him, He would certainly not leave such malfunctions in the provision of reality without pity and compassion for the tormented. For this reason, they named Him “Nature,” meaning a mindless, heartless supervisor. And for that reason, they believe that there is no one to be angry at, to pray to, or to justify oneself to.

Or the philosophical problem of the Theodicy: if there’s a god and is omnipotent, why then he tolerates pain and evil?

So the idea of the “mindless” force, described exactly like Burn. Natural rules, law of physics. They all exist but outside any sense of morality.

Which is even more interesting because then Erikson hits right on Kabbalistic ideas that are more abstract:

“You speak of the world as a physical thing, subject to natural laws. Is that all it is?”
“No, in the end the minds and senses of all that is alive define what is real – real for us, that is.”

“Is Burn the cause to our effect?”

That’s probably unwanted use of Kabbalistic language ;) But I don’t know if my skewed point of view makes me see what is not there. The idea I get is: do we have a real perception and real purpose? Or we are merely dreams of someone else?

The mention of cause and effect in that place reminds me of Bakker:

The thoughts of all men arise from the darkness. If you are the movement of your soul, and the cause of that movement precedes you, then how could you ever call your thoughts your own? How could you be anything other than a slave to the darkness that comes before?

How far I am from the truth?

Seems to me very far. Especially because, again, Burn’s sleep is only a fragment of the story and not its container. So whatever theory needs to emancipate “human perception” from the fact that Burn sleeps.

Instead the other aspect appears somewhat simpler to me. K’rul’s involvement. The key here is:

‘She sleeps … to dream.’

Turn back the pages to the beginning of this chapter:

K’rul, yours was the path the Sleeping Goddess chose

We’ve seen already in the prologue how K’rul “creates” the Imperial Warren. We also know that K’rul is the one who creates or shapes the warrens. And then we’ve also seen in GotM that he awakens first in Kruppe’s dreams, maybe a warren themselves.

So it seems that K’rul has a certain affinity with “dreams”. At least dreams as “spaces”. In this world even a memory can be a warren, so becoming “real”, somehow. Burn sleeps, and her dream is probably a warren itself that K’rul created/shaped for her.

But again back to what troubles me: the story we see can’t be what she dreams about, because we saw the world extending beyond the dream. So what?

Has anyone placed correctly this piece of the puzzle?

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13 years ago

I think Burn slept so she could fight the Crippled God. By sleeping it allowed her power to be transfered to Brood’s Hammer which he could then use against the Crippled God. This is Paran’s conclusion as I understand it.
I don’t think sleeping or dreaming is a defining characteristic of Burn. Her existence asleep or awake seems to be responsible for the creation of life (Mother Nature?) and if she is dreaming and they are troubled then this affects the world.

stevenhalter
13 years ago

idlefun&Abalieno:Burn has been sleeping for 1164 years as of the opening of the book. How old she is beyond that is unclear, but she is not listed as an Elder god.
idlefun@53: Yes, the sleeping is a defense mechanism of sorts, it seems.

‘She sensed the sickness coming, sinking claws into her. Sensed . . .and chose to sleep. Less than two thousand years ago, she chose to sleep. She sought to escape the prison of her own flesh, in order to do battle with the one who was killing that flesh. She – oh gods above and below! She made of herself a weapon! Her entire spirit, all its power, into a single forging . . . a hammer, a hammer capable of breaking . . . breaking anything. And Burn then found a man to wield it . . .

So, Brood can use the hammer to break TCG’s chains, but then he goes wild and destroys everyone. Or, he can awaken Burn with the hammer and then she kills everyone. Not a very good choice, so he chooses to do neither at the moment.
As to what happened to the world when she went to sleep, I don’t think we have seen any clear evidence of any physical things happening. As idlefun sasid, it made an impression as the calendar was switched.

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13 years ago

It doesn’t rub the right way, though. The fact that she’s sleeping so she could make… an hammer? Huh?

The fact that K’rul is involved makes me suspect that her dream is a warren. So some kind of geographical space. My first idea was that all the physical world was this dream, but as I said the physical world instead extends outside the dream.

So in the end the seer didn’t answer the question: Why does Burn sleep?

Damn you, old hag! Answer the question!

If Burn was awake before she started to sleep (huh), then why all life ends if she wakes up? Is she grumpy in the morning?

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Toster
13 years ago

I see it like this – when Burn was awake, she could still be the life-giving mother goddess, her natural equilibrium was kept intact through her own involvement, and she managed to fight the CG for a long time on her own, but it was a losing battle. eventually she got so sick that she went into a fevered sleep. her ‘immune system’ per se, hadn’t been able to stop the CG, so she puts all her power into the hands of a man who isn’t effected by the poison, and can save her life if he needs to.

Burn waking up probably won’t destroy everything if she’s just waking up from a cat-nap after some kinky goddess sex with t’iam the skanky ho. but if she wakes up from Brood swinging the hammer, its gonna be like somebody woke you up with a shock of 30,000 volts. she’s gonna be basically purging her body of a virus, so earthquakes, molten lava, tidal waves, sulphur rain, etc etc, are gonna occur. then when everyone’s dead and the CG too, she just starts over.

her sleeping in order to dream could be the only way to keep the world alive while she sleeps. usually when you’re sleeping, you’re not giving birth to things, but in her dreams, burn can. that’s pure baseless speculation there though.

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13 years ago

Toster @56:

Burn waking up probably won’t destroy everything if she’s just waking up from a cat-nap after some kinky goddess sex with t’iam the skanky ho

LOL!

she’s gonna be basically purging her body of a virus, so earthquakes, molten lava, tidal waves, sulphur rain, etc etc, are gonna occur.

“Fire and brimstone coming down from the skies! Rivers and seas boiling!”
“Forty years of darkness! Earthquakes, volcanoes…”
“The dead rising from the grave!”
“Human sacrifice, dogs and cats living together… mass hysteria! ”

(+2 Internet points for identifying the quote)

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13 years ago

And speaking of the old seer, I have to admit I didn’t remember her at all (too long since I’ve read the books) so I have no idea about the clue of her preferring the cold.

If this is explained later in this book, then I can wait. But if it’s anything more, can one of the veterans please throw in a (non too spoilerific) hint/clue?

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13 years ago

Breaking news:
Quick Ben has won against Perrin in the Suvudu cage match!

Final fight (Quick Ben vs. Vin) is set to start on April 6th.
http://sf-fantasy.suvudu.com/2011/04/cage-match-2011-the-final-is-set.html

Consolation fight is between Perrin and Jon Snow. They are accepting user submissions on how the fight would go until April 5th.

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13 years ago


You are entirely on the wrong track. Burn has a fever. But she prefers the cold. This is the essential point here. The resolution comes at the end of the book.

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13 years ago

Amir@57
“Are you a God?”
“No.”
“Then…DIE!!”
“Ray, when someone asks you if you’re a God, you say ‘YES!'”
“All right! This Chick is TOAST!”

or

“I think we should split up.”
“Good idea.”
“Yeah… we can do more damage that way.”

or

“We came, we saw, we kicked it’s ass!”

Mayhem
13 years ago

Left field idea here, I wonder if there is any link between Burn’s Sleep and the Queen of Dreams.
The interesting part is Burn chooses to sleep in order to Dream, but with the poison of the Crippled God, surely those dreams would be fever dreams – delusions and nightmares.

Burn is one of those really enigmatic figures in the series – she never interacts with anyone, and is always listed as Unaligned. Yet she isn’t listed as an elder god either. Her warren is Tennes, ‘Ancient and bound to the cycles of seasons’ and ‘The power of the land itself’ but we don’t know anything of what it does. I think the only time we see Tennes actually used is right at the end of TTH to shape a tomb, although Derudan in GoTM was also a witch of Tennes and made wards from it.
It seems most practitioners are hedge witches and generally female, but the greatest is Caladan Brood, who embodies contradiction.

Her Hammer has the power to shatter mountains, but Brood himself is known for his healing abilities, for High Denul. A Warlord that heals, a leader of great armies who prefers to wander for years alone or in small company. He’s a fascinating character.

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13 years ago

Did QB win by opening a hole in the ground beneath Perrin?

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13 years ago


Have you read Dust of Dreams and The Crippled God? These are quite interesting concerning Burns nature. But as it is Steven Erikson’s nature, more new questions arise than are acutally answered ;-)

Mayhem
13 years ago

, yes, I’ve read both, but don’t recall anything much on Burn there. I’m really hoping Burn and T’riss get elaborated on more in ICE’s work – Stonewielder certainly had a few hints, as did RotCG.

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13 years ago

KiManiak @61:

“Listen! Do you smell anything?”

“Back off, man. I’m a scientist.”

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13 years ago

@65 Mayhem
There are some discussions on this in the Malazan Empire Forums, I will post links.

Spoiler Warning:

DO NOT READ THESE IF YOU HAVE NOT READ DUST OF DREAMS

forum.malazanempire.com/index.php?showtopic=17737&st=0
forum.malazanempire.com/index.php?showtopic=16183&st=0&p=668100&hl=burn&fromsearch=1&#entry668100

Mayhem
13 years ago

Oooh, I forgot about those little outbursts.
Yes, there does seem to be a fairly equal divide between ‘makes sense’, ‘the character is insane’ and ‘SE is screwing with our heads again’, I’m leaning towards the third option.

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13 years ago

Amir@57 & 66 and Kimaniak@61: Classic movie! Love the quotes. Think I’ll watch it again tonight…it’s been awhile.

I need some yucks after just finishing TtH. Heavy lifting.

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13 years ago

@Tek
TTH really is hard work, espeacially on the first read and in the first two thirds of the book. But the ending is just awesome in my opinion and on my second read I liked it much better. Only the “dying god” story line still didnt work for me.

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13 years ago

Another question I have (keep it not spoler if revealed later): we all figured out how K’rul created the Imperial Warren, but I’m missing the link with how this warren is then used for travel around the Malazan empire.

Why (and how) the link between the physical world space and the warren space? Just arbitrary?

@62Mayhem
Left field idea here, I wonder if there is any link between Burn’s Sleep and the Queen of Dreams.

Well, I was starting to toy with the idea that K’rul is King of Dreams because of his powers.

In any case it seems that the discussion on Burn can’t be finalized here as I’m reading that it’s a mystery even in the Crippled God.

I still believe that there’s some truth in what I wrote, but the pieces just don’t match up right now (makes a good question for Erikson, I guess).

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13 years ago


As far as I know, most Warrens can be used to travel great distances in the “real world”. This is not a special property of the Imperial Warren. How the warren K’rul used to contain Kallors ruined empire became the Imperial Warren is a different question, that as far as I remember is not answered. I would guess that Kellanved and Dancer somehow “acquired” during their stay in the Deadhouse.

Mayhem
13 years ago


Warrens in general can be used to travel, in a variety of different ways, Some involve boring a hole through reality, others sidestepping via shadows, or compression of time. Still more involve gates and physical travel in another realm, with the principle of distance in one world isn’t the same in another. In some cases the warren itself moves around, and almost acts as a supernatural bus.
The Imperial Warren was created by K’rul to encompass all of the devastation from Kallor, it is never outright stated just how extensive it was, but at least one continent in size. The realm itself is used by many different factions,at some point Kellanved discovered access, but only the Emperor could be audacious enough to claim it as his own. I suspect the majority of Imperial users stick to known routes between specific cities, it definitely seems like a place where danger lurks in unexpected places.

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havenophear
13 years ago


“boring a hole through reality”

ISWYDT!

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13 years ago

Hey….SE answered our questions on Deadhouse Gates!

It is currently bookmarked on the main page. Good luck finding it after that goes away!

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HArai
13 years ago

Thanks for the heads up Tektonica, interesting answers as usual.

Mayhem
13 years ago

@74
You did? Um. I don’t. What did I do?

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13 years ago


The phrase “boring a hole through reality” comes originally (as far as that goes anyway) from the Wheel of Time.

Mayhem
13 years ago

Ahh. Well, to be fair, Jordan drew from the same sources as everyone else, the concepts detailed above are fairly common throughout the genre and his work just put his own spin on it.
In the Wheel of Time, you had gateways bored from one place to another or meshed on top of each other, you had ‘time is different in another realm’ with Tel’Aran’Rhiod and the portal stones, and the interlocking highway travel of the Ways. From memory the wielders of the True Power sidestep the whole thing and step outside the pattern to move they want to be but since I stopped reading back around book 10 my memory is pretty hazy.

In this case, in terms of Boring a Hole I was thinking of the ship of mages in RoTCG, while tMoTD does the ‘make things similar’ trick, the various wounds sealed by living souls would count too, such as that made for the Silanda in DG or the Rent at Morn.

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13 years ago

Late! Sorry got waylaid by baby’s birthday celebrations, which I guess means she’s not a baby anymore, but a toddler right? Anyway that’s besides the point. On to last week’s chapters.

There were so many funny scenes this week, the stealing back of the table, Paran telling them to take it back to Brood, Dujek telling Whiskeyjack he should demote him to sergeant again, (flying) Kruppe and of course Quick Ben dropping Kallor down a hole!

There was so much information packed into these two chapters, it was super dense. Fantastic details though!

One thing I really loved and haven’t seen mentioned so far is the scene where Crone sneaks into the tent where they’ve hidden the table and overhears them bickering. I love that Picker keeps questioning Spindle, but when Hedge tries it, she snaps at him. That’s so true to how merging two groups works. Sort of “He maybe a crap wizard, but he’s our crap wizard, so shut up!” feeling there.

Mayhem @62: I don’t think Burn can be the Queen of Dreams as Burn is a goddess and the Queen of Dreams was a sorceress who walked with Rake and Brood. I mean it could be, but it seems weird in that case.

Mayhem
13 years ago


Oh, I’m not saying Burn & the Queen of Dreams are the same person – as you say, the Queen is specifically stated to be a mortal who ascended.

What I’m wondering instead is if the Queen has gained any powers or responsibilities since Burn decided to Sleep. It was the line about ‘She sleeps .. in order to dream’. Then I started making connections between dreams, fever dreams, delusions and .. shadows?

stevenhalter
13 years ago

Warren travel is seems to take on different aspects, depending on who is doing the traveling and what warren is being used. I think that the base mechanisms are all tied together. You enter the different reality of a warren and then ‘follow’ a path to the desired goal. The following may be of your own or other making. We also have seen that the Azath houses are deeply linked with this method of traveling–the map that contains all of the warrens is a key piece. I’m not sure if it is the reality of the situation or a mapping of the reality.
If you can gain access to an Azath, you just find the right place in the map and then go there.
When Kalam & co. move through the imperial warren, he mentions that keeping the destination in mind is critical. Thus, it takes them quite a while to get where there are going compared to a mage, whose mind has been trained in the appropriate discipline. So, in this case, we see a slow progression across the landscape of the warren until we arrive at the goal. This type of travel is fairly typical of people who are either somewhat untrained (often just following a path others have established) or who are conserving their energy. Either a mage or a device is needed in order to gain access to the warren in the first place.
Then, we will see mages using a more ad hoc method of travel. Depending on the amount of energy they want to expend, they use their power to compress the journey.
Zelazny’s Amber is what most springs to mind to me as a comparison to warren travel. There, you need to be of the correct family, but Corwin’s hellride where he really forces things in a cacaphony of reality bending are what remind me of the more severe of the mages journeys. And, at other times, stepping through the shadow worlds is a gentle stroll to your desire. Then of course, there are the trumps, that can have an effect similar to some usages of the Deck of Dragons.
Of course, there are lots of other ways in which traveling to a different reality results in your traveling in this reality. Time travel (forward) is often seen when visiting elf mounds (think Rip Van Winkle.)
And, the warp engines in many science fiction novels are really just moving a ship out of phase to their current reality, by invoking a somewhat ‘magical’ use of a black hole, quantum effect, or hyper dimension. (I say magical in this context as we certainly don’t know how it works and with reference to one of Clark’s laws.)

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13 years ago

Read a bit more and was wondering about this:

In any case, as you said, she was forced to make do with the situation, and as to that situation … I am to blame for all that’s happened, sir.

This is Paran talking about Tavore and the rest of the family. The reason why he feels guilty should be because of what was already in the Prologue of GotM. He decided to enlist, then join the campaign on Genabackis and leave his family duties behind to chase his dream of becoming a soldier. So he sees what happens to his family as a kind of fallback due to his choices.

I’m also wondering at that pet peeve of mine about Paran suggesting Lorn that the nobility needed to be reigned in again after Laseen became Empress. The reason of this cull and why Tavore couldn’t find a better compromise for Felisin are a bit muddy.

Tavore and Paran appear like opposite of the spectrum. One outlawed and the other closest to the Empress. So it would look like a balance. Why is it that Felisin has to pay? The Empress even knows that the outlawing is a fraud, so it’s not perfectly clear what is the purge achieving in Paran’s family’s case (beside Laseen testing Tavore’s loyalty). And more, why it couldn’t be at least controlled instead of going on ruthlessly. It doesn’t seem to serve Laseen in any good way.

At the beginning of Paran’s introspection there’s mention of the wasps the day in Itko Kan. Reminds me again of the scene with Kalam at the end of DG. Insects seem to represent lower realms, like a in a hierarchy of cause-effect. Maybe a reminder of how humans also get caught into the games of gods.

Another passing comment: the dialogue between Gruntle and Buke at the beginning of the chapter is very well done. When they discuss what happened in Darujhistan there’s a small interjection about what Gruntle was doing at that time, an hint about an untold story that comes out as quite natural. It shows these two have a familiarity. And then there’s also a number of twists of intentions as more about Buke and his true motivations about accepting the new job is revealed.

The risk about B&KB is that they can come out as cliche or caricatural, but the characters and reactions around them are so well written, like this scene, that Erikson dances between the tones, humorous and serious, without creating a jarring effect.

@81 Bill
Great, I’m like 30 pages into chapter 4 still :)

stevenhalter
13 years ago

Abalieno@84:The cull is triggered in part by Lorn’s conversation with the unknown captain in chapter 1 of GotM. But, note that event happened quite a while before the actual cull, so the conversation was really just information added. Laseen performs the cull for what she deems to be politically expedient reasons.
Paran feels guilty because of his remarks there and also because he accepted outlawing. At this point he didn’t know that the outlawing was just a manouvre. His analysis is that Tavore did what was needed to protect the family and that the family was culled more severely because of his being outlawed.
Tavore, thinks that Felisin won’t suffer that much and provides her a guard. Her thought is that Felisin can be retrieved from the mines fairly quickly once things calm down. As we have seen, this plan doesn’t work at all.

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13 years ago

Reading the comments I noticed no one commented on this part.

Quoting Amanda:

What is the betrayal that greets Sister of Cold Nights’ dawn? Is this the telling of her “death” and rebirth into the body of Silverfox? “You chose to trust the knife, even as it found your heart.” This might be an oblique reference to Bellurdan, her mate?

Thinking about it I realized that Amanda’s confusion here is just normal. At this point of the story the first time reader has no particular suspects about what happened to Nightchill. In GotM there were no hints about a betrayal, Nightchill dies during an attack and readers assume she’s killed by Rake. An on top of this there’s even an “error” in GotM in the way the siege of Pale is described (maybe the result of a “retcon”).

I guess it’s better to keep the discussion about who is that was involved in the betrayal for later, when more details are added, but I think that we can guess that the betrayal in the poem refers to what truly happened at Pale behind the scenes (and so Amanda has no elements to guess, since GotM provided none at all because of this “retcon”).

I also have another critique to make. I consider this book a bit “wasteful” and it’s starting to show in these chapters. Even Erikson admitted having an impossible number of balls to juggle and my impression is that there are so many ideas that some of them aren’t used to their full potential.

This can be seen (imho) for example in the case of the Great Ravens and then the scene with Paran. These sub-plots aren’t left simmering for enough time. The mystery of the Ravens is hinted in the Prologue and already addressed here directly, in info-dump mode more than a moment in the plot where the revelation could have carried more weight. And in the scene with Paran we see him worrying about his family a page before those worries are directly addressed. These are two cases but it happens frequently in the whole book: mysteries and sub-plots are introduced and then “spoiled” sometime one page or even one paragraph later. Imho, they don’t have enough space to breath and make an impression on the reader, and it seems that on this level the structure of the book is too “momentous”.

At the same time this book is insane for the amount of stuff it contains. It’s not perfect, but the stakes were so high that I have no idea how you could have humanly dealt with it better. It sometimes gives me the impression that Erikson “bit more than he could chew” in this book, but I so admire the ambition and recklessness, and by the end of the book he indeed achieved some impossible heights.

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HArai
13 years ago

Abalieno@86: “In GotM there were no hints about a betrayal, Nightchill dies during an attack and readers assume she’s killed by Rake”

Err… no hints except for the belief stated in GotM by Tattersail, Hairlock, and the Bridgeburners that Tayschrenn summoned the demon that killed her, and the statement also in GotM from Rake that he was baffled when Tayschrenn released demons against his own side?

Not sure what you mean by a “retcon” here either. The idea there’s conflicting viewpoints on her death is in GotM as well: Bellurdan directly disputes the idea of a betrayal with Tattersail.

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13 years ago

Huh, page?

I don’t remember those parts. The “error” is about a description of demons summoned after the mage responsible for the summons died. Or somesuch. I only remember that when I read MoI some details didn’t match up perfectly.

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HArai
13 years ago

Using my Kindle so I don’t have pages at the moment but let’s see:

Tattersail,Hairlock and Bridgeburners bring it up while Quick Ben soulshifts Hairlock into the puppet in Chapter 2 and the Tattersail/Bellurdan argument happens in Chapter 3 when the guards ask Tattersail to do something about the smell of Nightchill’s corpse.

Rake’s statement is in his first conversation with Baruk in Chapter 6.

As for details not matching up perfectly: I don’t think anyone in the series has a totally reliable point of view, let alone the people that flat out lie on purpose. In any event the idea of Nightchill being betrayed is covered in GotM quite a bit actually. The “what really happened” true events? Well that depends who and what you care to believe… life is like that and so is this series :)

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Toster
13 years ago

i’m not sure that there was ever any confusion for me about who summoned the demons… tayschrenn did it, and his demons appear later in the novel too, when QB releases Pearl.

if theres an error, it’s in the timing of the death of a’karonys. T-Sail describes the demons tearing nightchill apart, then wings of ice enclosing a’karonys. the question asked is, if nightchill is dead, who is using ice magic on a’karonys? is it rake? however, the chain of causality here is not certain at all. this is tattersails memory, and she could very easily be remembering things in the wrong order.

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13 years ago

Another final impression from these couple of chapters (before the new post comes up):

The most impressive moment in these chapters (for me) was Whiskeyjack arriving in the middle of the Rake/Kallor/Siverfox confrontation. (much more impressive for me than even Rake’s arrival, as much badass as that indeed was).

You can just picture it:
Rake and Kallor on one side; Dujek, Brood and Silverfox on the other. Rake unsheaths Dragnipur (despite Brood’s explicit warning). Brood lifts Burn’s Hammer. And in the middle of all this tension, Whiskeyjack walks into the clearing, sees the situation, and without a word spoken walks directly to stand in front of Silverfox, draws his sword and faces Rake and Kallor.

Another great example of Erikson’s “show, don’t tell” approach. This one wordless reaction from Whiskeyjack tells more about the man than any verbal explanation of what goes through his head at the moment.

stevenhalter
13 years ago

It’s the day before a new post, so:

‘I enjoy killing and riding men and little else’, Hetan growled, crossing her muscled arms.

..

‘Tell me, Shield Anvil, do these undead warriors hold grudges?’

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13 years ago

It seems it’s just me messing things ;)

Yep, Tayschrenn is involved directly in GotM and it is blatant. But this means I’m confusing the part that was problematic, since I remember that at the time I checked everything and there was an aspect that didn’t match up.

Toster@90 points to that “retcon” or error I was speaking about. Later in this book I think the situation is discussed more precisely so we’ll have to return on this.

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13 years ago

‘Soldiers are issued armour for their flesh, but they must fashion their own for their souls. Piece by piece.’

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13 years ago

‘Twin scars on his mask, and the imprint of painted lips! Would he be the Fourth, then, or the Fifth? How do they count lips, do you think? One upper, one lower, or both together? Let’s find out.’

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13 years ago

‘Names are not for the asking, mortal. Names are earned.’

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13 years ago

The tiger is humbled by memories of prey.

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13 years ago

‘Honoured?’ Brukhalian cut in, his voice the slide of iron on stone, his eyes flickering with a strange light. ‘Allow me, on Fener’s behalf,’ he said in a low whisper, ‘to comment on the question of honour.’

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13 years ago

‘How in Hood’s name did you get tied up with your two masters , anyway?’
‘Long story,’ he muttered, sipping at his wine. ‘Too long to tell, really. My wife, you see… Well, the posting offered travel…’

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13 years ago

When are chapters 6 and 7 going to be posted?

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13 years ago

Thursday, I think Bill said.

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13 years ago

Sorry to interrupt your quotes but I still have comments to make ;)

Another thing I noticed in the dialogue between Paran and Whiskeyjack is how WJ doesn’t forget his role and gently pushes Paran toward pragmatism:

‘Tattersail resides within Silverfox, Paran. She must be drawn forth … to the fore.’
‘Because Tattersail would never betray us. Yes, now I see.’

So WJ does not step back, continues to work in the interest of Dujek and the rest of the army, also forcing Paran to take responsibility even if he now feels crushed in between:

I will fail you all.

The discovery of the card under the table coming right after Paran’s POV is a too blatant hint, and in fact the whole thing is revealed as the POV returns to Paran and Silverfox. And she is again a huge source of unusual straightforward info.

There’s here direct mention of Nightchill’s betrayal:

She knows she was betrayed at the Enfilade at Pale.

And it’s Tayschrenn to take that role, so this closes what was hinted in the poem at the beginning of the chapter (but it doesn’t seem all, since in the following chapter there’s mention that it wasn’t the first time that Nightchill was betrayed).

Then there’s explanation of the relationship between Holds and Houses. The idea of the Deck of Dragons as a structure and order. I remembered most of this, what I didn’t was how each Azath house is “aspected”.

Deadhouse -> House Death
Tremorlor -> House Life
Finnest -> House Ice

We saw in DG how these houses are linked, and this carries over to the explanation why Shadowthrone and Dancer took control House Shadow instead of House Dead, the one they entered. It should be noticed that Gothos is in the Deadhouse (why or if it has any relevancy, I don’t know).

We know that the gate to Dark is inside Rake’s sword, but is the Azath involved? It wasn’t in the case of the Finnest, even if the Jaghuts have been around for a while. The Azaths up to this point have been shown as a way to “trap” power, more than simply give it residence (and I wonder what happened to the Hold of Ice since it doesn’t seem present in the current version of the Deck…). So a kind of barrier that prevents one realm to bleed into this physical world. But then “Dark”, called the “First Wound” is kept in check not via Azath, but via souls sealing the wound.

So there’s a need to assemble these three mythologies into one: The Azath (that in DG was described as coming above and before everything else), Mother Dark as the origin and the creation of the First Wound, and K’rul, who’s still described as the creator of the warrens.

All three of these claim to be “first”. To not even consider Burn, who should also be the creator of the world…

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13 years ago

All I can say, Abalieno, is that Olar Ethil will blow your mind in a while.

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13 years ago

Yay! It means I have time this week to make some progress with other books as well! ;)

#103
No spoilers, but does it mean that “who comes first” will be tackled later on in the series?

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13 years ago

@105 Abalieno
No. It means that you will be more confused on the issue than you now think is possible ;-)

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13 years ago

Well, dang Bill. The highlight of my week, cancelled. LOL.
I hope real life isn’t treating you badly…just busily.

Between moving the last two weeks, and wedging in the finish of Toll the Hounds, I’ve been sorely behind on this reread…which is a favorite book!
Maybe now I can catch up. So, erm, thanks, I guess.

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13 years ago

Hey Bill,

Bummer about the news. I hope everything is okay. Well, we’ll just have another week to get ready for the next couple of chapters.

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13 years ago
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13 years ago

What Tek said; I look forward to coming into work on Wednesday just for the reread. :)

That said, I’ve been neglecting my other book (Matthew Stover’s Iron Dawn) in favor of MoI this week. Now I can give it the attention that (I hope) it deserves.

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13 years ago

And here I was worried I wouldn’t get a chance to finish the chapters at hand because of delays caused by my surgery late last week.

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13 years ago

@111: Wait, how was I able to post under the name “ZetaStriker”? :)

‘Cause, yeah, same story here, man. (Though I was able to finish mine yesterday during lunch.)

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13 years ago

I was wondering if I’m again misinterpreting things.

In the case of the Tiste Andii I’m assuming there may be something else than being without a cause. What I’m thinking is that the origin there may be “guilt”, something that they can’t repay and that emptied them. But also something that they are responsible for mor than something that just happened.

Does this possibility actually exists or it is ruled out in the rest of the series?

stevenhalter
13 years ago

Abalieno@113:There are lots of possibilities. In the course of lifetimes lasting millennia, there are going to be lots of incidents at individual levels.
While to this point, we have only seen a few Tiste Andii at a personal level, remember that they are people. While as a mass, being without motivation may be a descriptor, we’ll see that this isn’t true of everyone.
So, is there one single thing that dominates them from a societal perspective? I would say that there are several events. Some are indeed their blame. Some are others. We’ll see the origin of some of these things as we get deeper into the series.
Also, recall that SE is doing a whole trilogy on the Tiste Andii set before they come across to the Malazan world.

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13 years ago

I’m referring to how they are defined. How they do not mourn their dead or how they are described as not “caring”.

So there’s a certain mood that at the very least defines them. It may be because of the separation from Mother Dark or because they themselves were “guilty” of something.

There’s a passage with Silverfox and Korlat that I could have misinterpreted:

‘In all that is to come, think on forgiveness. Hold to it, but know too that it must not always be freely given.’ Silverfox swung her sleepy gaze to Korlat and the dark eyes suddenly hardened. ‘Sometimes forgiveness must be denied.’

That last line she says directly to Korlat. I interpreted it as something that Nightchill knows, about the Tiste Andii. So something that they have done in their past that made them beyond forgiving. Some great crime that can’t be recovered.

This is an interpretation, but it may even be that Silverfox hardened tone is just about what she thinks of the T’lan Imass.

stevenhalter
13 years ago

Abalieno:I think that the forgiveness here is more in reference to Silverfox than anyone else. She is replying to Korlat and that is why, I think, that she focuses upon Korlat.
As for the burying of the dead and uncaring, I think that this is an excellent example of anthropological principles in action. Note that the others assume that the Tiste Andii practices around their dead means that they do not care. I would say that it means that their practices are different–not necessarilly that they do not care.

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ksh1elds555
13 years ago

Bill and Amanda… This post is indeed the highlight of my Wednesdays but I am actually happy you are running late this week.

I spent the last week finishing the last 200 pages of Toll the Hounds. Just finished it last night in fact. HOLY F# was it awesome. I could not put it down to keep up with the reread this week at all. I was laughing and crying in various parts, and doing the fist in the air “hell yeah” thing from time to time. And reading that book has given me even more appreciation for this book , MoI. I will be rereading even more carefully now that I know which plot points and characters will become important. And I was marveling at how SE could bring back a character he hasn’t brought up since GotM, and integrate it seemlessly into the narrative. Wow, TtH, what a ride….. I might have to take a week off before starting DoD, just to recuperate.

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13 years ago

ksh1elds555@117:

Congrats. I’m in the same place you are. TtH….whew. What and ending. And MoI relates so well!! I’m taking a break as well, before I plunge into DoD, as I’ve been told that it and the CG are really one book, broken into 2.

Think I’ll just coast with MoI for a week or so….

Then there’s GRRM…both Leigh’s Read and the new HBO thing starting
April 17th, I think.

Breathe…….

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13 years ago

For anyone interested, Pat’s Fantasy Hotlist posted an interview with SE a few days ago now that the main series has been completed.

My favorite question/answer was a question dealing with Quick Ben and SE’s one-word answer.

Whew! I love it when SE provides an answer that makes me feel less stupid!

:-)

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13 years ago

@@@@@ 7. Shalter

Nice breakdown of that scene and thanks for clearly laying that out like that. I always think of that scene when I think about one of the underlying themes that is mentioned at various points throughout the books, “don’t mess with mortals.”

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13 years ago

Chapter 5 contains one of my favorite “magic” scenes in the series, when QB opens a whole in the ground and drops Kallor into it. With all the great magic we see in these books, something that simple was so unexpected and always makes me laugh.

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13 years ago

@@@@@ 38. KiManiak

Great observation! Your post is a great example of the power/value of re-reading this series (numerous times for some of us).

I love the way you explained that scene from the two positions (Paran’s & Dujek’s). I hadn’t really thought about it in quite that way but, upon reading your post, I agree that Dujek probably was feeling some complicity for the fate of the Paran family.

Another thing that I love about that scene is that it is really the first time that we get any real information about Tavore. Since this information comes to us through Paran, I saw it as accurate. She is referred to as “cold” and with a “cool detachment” both descriptions which are used relative to her throughout the books. It was nice seeing that foreshadowing of her character all the way back here near the beginning of MoI.

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13 years ago

Robin@119: Thanks for heads up on the SE interview….very interesting. Loved the QB answer too!

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13 years ago

Raest’s humor

We will find as we progress throughout the series that the Jaghut have a very dry, very distinct type of humor. To them, it is extremely funny. LOL I get the sense at times that they find themselves very, very funny.

:-)

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13 years ago

Passing comments about the other chapter.

On my first read all the sections with Toc and Lady Envy felt weaker than the rest. This because there’s a clash of disparate and odd characters, powers and tones of narration. So a kind of awkward impression that sometimes seemed serious and dramatic, and sometimes playful and ironic. Rereading these parts I enjoy them much more, maybe because I consider those contrasts as part of the writer intent, while on my first read I judged them more the result of mishandling and not perfect “calibration”.

For example Toc’s reaction to Lady Envy’s provocations is a contrast well written. There’s even a certain “innocence” in Lady Envy’s antics, but the truth of the process doesn’t evade Toc and so he can’t even for a moment relax and play along. As a character he seems kind of lonely, even among relatively benign powers. The same extends to the other characters, all staging a surreal play for Lady Envy’s enjoyment. It’s like the hypocrisy is the icing on the cake.

Then again a contrast, when Tool is defined as: An artist’s hands. Not simply to describe his skill at creating the tools, but to underline a sense of “loss”. The knowledge of the T’lan Imass is not lost, but it is nostalgic as if it was since it’s the need (for art) that has been forgotten. Toc can appreciate it, but he still sees a dead body in front of him, and it is truly dead.

An anthropological touch can be noticed a couple of pages later: “In our language, we possess many names for stone.” As Wittgenstein would say “use” as “meaning”. The meaning of a word entirely depends on its use. The Imass, before and after the ritual, only knew how to use stone, and so used it for almost everything. They depended on it. This means that they had a need for more differentiation, and so hundreds of specific names. Whereas another culture not based on “stone” could have done without differentiation and just one name. Language is always arbitrary, and so you define (and separate) only what is necessary and useful.

Quoting Amanda:

Erikson chooses interesting language when he says, “Should you begin to see the spirit of Nightchill rising and that of Tattersail setting…” This brings to mind images of Tattersail being the sun and Nightchill the moon within Silverfox. Day and night. Light and shadow. It’s as though a conflict between utterly opposed elements will take place within Silverfox. (Bill: Nice.)

Yeah, especially because Tattersail used Thyr (Light) and Nightchill Rashan (Darkness) ;)

About Kruppe I share the same doubts of my first read. I don’t think the character was used to its full potential. In GotM Kruppe had a reason to appear like a fool so that he could pass relatively unnoticed and underestimated, and have his hands free to manipulate events behind the scenes. But instead here Kruppe loses a bit of his “charm”. He’s used too blatantly as a comic interlude and his verbosity seems to lack subtext and layers, that was what made it “more” than what was manifest. At the same time his role here is more out in the open. He has to sway opinions of major powers like Brood and Dujek, yet he plays too much his character without stepping up. I would have loved to see him adapting more to circumstances and surprise even his partners. He still plays coy, too predictably, and instead I wanted him to come out more and surprise. So I resent a bit that Erikson has played this character too conservatively.

I enjoyed the “rational” explanation of Silverfox creation. They have no life-force to give her. Or, more in general, the T’lan Imass surely can’t procreate. They made themselves an “idea”, stripped of mortality. Divorced from the world. That’s, then, why there’s the need for the sacrifice of a life. Even here we see a principle we already heard about: a life given for a life taken.

The whole chapter gives a lot of perspectives on the figure of Silverfox. About the ambiguities of her role, about the souls within her, about her “purpose”, about her need for experience and quickening of growth.

stevenhalter
13 years ago

Robin@121:Yes, the hole in the ground was nicely done. Both from QB’s standpoint and the writing standpoint. If something small and clever will suffice, then QB is generally all over it.

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13 years ago

Robin55077 @124:

We will find as we progress throughout the series that the Jaghut have a very dry, very distinct type of humor. To them, it is extremely funny. LOL I get the sense at times that they find themselves very, very funny.

Should I be worried then that I personally find the Jaghut jokes to be very funny? :-)

stevenhalter
13 years ago

Amir: lol, yes–the T’lan will be after you. It wasn’t really the tyrants or the ice that caused the wars– the Imass just didn’t have any sense of humor. ;-)

stevenhalter
13 years ago

Here’s something fun–If anyone happens to be going to Minicon 46 this year (April 22-24), I’m going to be on a panel:
Malazan Book of the Fallen Recap – 2:30 PM Saturday – Veranda 2

Cool, live talking about Malazan.

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13 years ago

Shalter,

You might be right about the Imass’ lack of sense of humor. The really funny ones we meet are cast-outs (clanless).

stevenhalter
13 years ago

It’s Tuesday again, so quotes part II:

No deliberate intent created Wu’s Closet Square.

They are insane, friend. Thoroughly, ice-blooded, lizard-eyed insane.

‘None’, Reese said. ‘My cat’s come back.’

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13 years ago

“The soldier’s moment now, before the battle begins…… You stand with others, all facing the same threat, all feeling so very alone. In the cold embrace of fear, that sense that all that you are might end in moments. Gods, I’ve no envy for a soldier’s life–“

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13 years ago

“Soldiers are issued armor for their flesh and bones, but they must fashion their own for their souls. PieM ce by piece.”

“Extraordinary, isn’t it, that such people can be found on other continents as well, calling themselves by the same name and practicing, it seems, virtually identical customs. What vast history lies buried and now lost in their ignorance, I wonder?”

I speak of compassion. There are gifts unimagined in such efforts. A man who dreams has shown me this, and indeed, you shall soon see for yourself. Such gifts . . .”

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Toster
13 years ago

SE you bastard

“You misunderstand me, dearest. Not your tit – thought that would be a fine sight indeed – but you with a baby! Hah, a baby!”
Stonny threw him a sneer.

(anyone wondering, just RAFO )

“Bladed. Blood-iron. Their eyes are hollow pits. They stink of urns in the dark circle. They make no sound. No sound at all”

*Shivers*

“Alas, I never hurry. As you’re about to discover”

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13 years ago

@@@@@ 129. Shalter

You have no idea how badly I wish I still lived up there! I wish I could be there with you. How cool!

Enjoy, and know that there are probably many of us who would love to be there in person, but will only be there in spirit.

:-)

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13 years ago

@@@@@ 127. Amir

No worries at all!

SE writes humor exactly the same way he writes everything else. It is always specific (and perfectly in character) with the characters themselves. So often, it seems, that you read a book and all of the characters have the exact same sense of humor, most often probably that of the writer. Not so in these books! SE writes the occasional humor with as much thought and care as he writes everthing else, always keeing it true to the character.

:-)

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13 years ago

A few more leftover comments.

There’s mention of the first chaining of the CG. It’s implied that Rake joined the ascendants who decided for the chaining while Lady Envy did not. Same for Osric, “there was a falling out”. I think it was in DG the mention of Rake and Osric having some kind of clash. This seems to happen after a first “falling out” between Rake, Brood and an anonymous Queen of Dreams.

So we have two groups. The first: Rake, Brood and Queen of Dreams. Then Rake, Osric and Lady Envy. First Rake parted with Osric, and Osric disappeared. Then with Lady Envy after she refused to be at the chaining.

What remains ambiguous is when the first chaining actually happened.

I liked this passage:

“Forces of nature, Mother,” he said, “are indifferent to justice, would you not agree?”
It was a struggle to reply. “I would, Lord of Moon’s Spawn.”
“Thus it falls to us sentient beings, no matter how unworthy, to impose the moral divide.”

That’s Rake, and so it seems he’s trying to impose some kind of moral judgement. It is interesting that afterwards Kallor seems to “win” Rake’s support by presenting himself like a lost cause. It seems to hint at a certain sense of superiority in Rake. I read Kallor’s words like some sort of manipulative praise aimed at Rake… and it seemed to work.

Is there some sense of narcissism in Rake? Is that something Erikson explicitly wanted to hint?

I’m wondering about Paran and Burn’s situation. Quick Ben says there must be some kind of link between Paran acquired role in the Deck of Dragons and what happened in Rake’s sword. There are two points that mark Paran’s exclusivity. The first is that he entered the sword unchained. But this one wasn’t related to some choice or power, he was brought in when he got in contact with one of the hounds’ blood. The other point is that he used his link with Oponn to bring him in the sword and then break the chains of the two hounds, who then ended up in “darkness”. So why this particular action makes Paran eligible for the new role? Beside the fact that he defied some power, is there some other specific reason that makes him a neutral arbiter? Either he’s picked by a neutral law, and so needs to be justified, or he’s picked by some kind of sentient entity, but this is unlikely because we should have enough insight to know that there shouldn’t be one.

I also wonder if there’s some meaning about the “glittering, silver chains” that link Paran to the table. Or if it’s just to show the link between Paran and that particular card.

Something similar about the deal with Burn. There is no apparent logic connection with the way the story is described. Why does Burn need to sleep in order to imbue Brood’s hammer with her power? Why couldn’t she channel her power directly? It’s also unclear the effect of this dream, in the sense of what changes in the world if Burn is sleeping or awake.

Which brings back on the level of consequences. The highpoint for me is the discussion between Brood and Rake. They speak about repercussions and there’s a particular line:

“Would that be so bad a thing, do you think?”

The specific question is left unanswered. And it’s about the implications that the Big Picture forms. What is Brood’s goal? “You gift this world with a few more generations of living”. Reinforcing the odd idea that Burn’s sleep is a “box”, a kind of defined, ordered space, containing the possibility of life. To achieve what? “Of dreams, hopes and tragic ends”. And I wonder if Erikson will explore this complex theme.

Humanity is like a vulnerable core pressured on all sides. So again the “metaphor made real”. Brood becomes like a kind of supreme judge who has the responsibility to decide if it’s “worth”. Does he gives humanity a possibility even knowing it amounts to “history repeating”? Will the god have mercy?

I remember in GotM reread people mentioned that the idea of the warren of Chaos is one that seems dropped later. But here we have direct mention of it:

The Chained One’s is that of Chaos.

But wasn’t the Chaos just the space between the structured space of the warrens, so a natural part of K’rul? How has the CG taken possession of it (since K’rul is antecedent to the CG’s fall)?

I’m also wondering if this Chaos is “crimson”. Maybe it’s not the case that The Crippled God interior of the book cover is also crimson. Here we have:

A throbbing, crimson glow suffused the air directly above it.

It’s about the tile of Burn, describing the infection of the CG. Maybe the mention of the color is not casual.

Is there some kind of duality between Burn and K’rul? They also seem to have a physical manifestation (or they had it), while also representing a larger physical space (so they walk within themselves). Burn’s body is the whole planet, while K’rul seems to represent the fabric of all warrens. As if one represents physical space while the other the sorcery.

As with Burn, the paradox is represented by the breadth of history. Burn: the physical world and life existed even before Burn started to sleep. K’rul: the warrens, especially Darkness, seem to be antecedent to K’rul’s role as an Elder God, specific of this world (?). And why sorcery and the warrens were relatively unperturbed even if K’rul seemed to be gone from the world, or at least dormant?

Especially: could the world outlive Burn? What kind of link they truly have?

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10 years ago

Finished Ch. 5 today. Stell reading on, though very slowly. Having read those last two chapters, this book is promessing to get very thrilling and interessting. I’ll certainly read on, even so very slowly, as I allready wrote. I’m especially wondering about that Pannion Domin. What lies at its heart? It really seems, that the Malazan/Brood/Silverfox army seems quite a bit overpowered with all the Malazan soldiers, our Bridgeburners, the Moranth and there munitions, Anomander Rake with his vast power, his mighty sword, Tiste Andii army , the dragon Silanah and the Great Ravens, the Warlord Caladan Brood whith his probably also vast power, his hammer that could kill the world itself, Kallor, who destroyed alone an entire continent, the Rhivi, the Bhargast, Silverfox and Paran, the Master of the Deck, and still the T’lan Imass armies, Tool the first sword, the punitive army of the Seguleh, Lady Envy and Toc are joining them too? What the f….., who could stand any chance against such incredible powerful forces all combined? The Pannion Domin should hardly stand a chance one might think.

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10 years ago


Your abillity to read slowly is going to be challenged pretty soon I guess ;)

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10 years ago

Hi Kah-thurak. Yeah I must admit, having finished Ch. 6 yesterday late night, it was hard to stop reading. Even though it was late and I was very tired. But I was hard on myself too and I stopped anyway :-)

What a mean cliffhanger of a chapter ending. I will now start with the 7th chapter. But I won’t come far probably, since I’m quite tired again and it’s not so soon anymore. And I have to get up very early tomorrow again.

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Jez
5 years ago

Well, I’m only 8 years late here, but I’m on my first read! I’ve found these posts fantastically helpful, and memories of Ice has been my favorite book yet. 

I find it funny a lot of people complain about the Mheybe when it’s Parran I can’t stand so far! The Maybe is actually dying and Parran is bellyaching over, well, a bellyache. BOOHOO PARRAN, you’re becoming an ascendant, life is SO HARD for you!!!! I complain all the time and I’m not ascended yet! Get over it! 

I’m hoping he’ll get better, right now he’s one of my least favorite characters. Quick Ben is definitely a strong favorite, as was Kruppe. 

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Diogo Santos
1 year ago

Erikson seems to weave an intricate tapestry around Burn and Brood, exploring the tension between the existential irrelevance of humanity in the grand cosmic scheme and the inherent value of human existence. Granted, I’ve only delved as far as ‘Reaper’s Gale’, so my understanding might not be all-encompassing.

At its core, the narrative seems to grapple with a duality: on one hand, there’s the stark realization that regardless of Brood’s choices, the eventual extinction of humanity seems inevitable. In parallel, Burn, embodying the planet, persists, suggesting the cyclical emergence and ebbing away of life. This theme resonates strikingly with our real-world scenario. Barring any significant technological advancements in our immediate future, humanity’s eventual decline seems unavoidable. In fact, taking a long-term view, one could argue the eventual end of humanity is a given.

Yet, even when confronted with these sobering truths, there’s an underlying question: Despite the adversities, wars, and pain that characterize so much of human history, isn’t existence, with all its imperfections, preferable to the void of non-existence? Even if our time is but a fleeting moment in the vast chronicle of the universe, doesn’t that make our journey, with its joys and sorrows, all the more precious?

 

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