Welcome back to the Oathbringer reread, where we’ve reached Dalinar’s penultimate flashback: Gavilar’s funeral. We have ardents, highprinces, family, and a recently-discovered ancient book, all combining to start Dalinar down a new path.
Reminder: we’ll potentially be discussing spoilers for the ENTIRE NOVEL in each reread—if you haven’t read ALL of Oathbringer, best to wait to join us until you’re done.
In this week’s reread we also discuss a small thing from Mistborn: Secret History in the Stories & Songs unit, so if you haven’t read it, best to give that section a pass.
Chapter Recap
WHO: Dalinar
WHERE: Kholinar
WHEN: 1167.10.1.2 (Just a little over 6 years ago from the current storyline)
Dalinar is at Gavilar’s funeral. Some keteks are spoken, and Gavilar’s corpse is soulcast into a stone statue by a Soulcaster. As Elhokar swears vengeance on the Parshendi, Dalinar leaves, sending Adolin back to swear for their house. He pauses outside his room, looking for a key, when he hears Jasnah reading aloud from The Way of Kings. He hears something in those words that gives him hope, and begins planning his trip to the Nightwatcher.
Beginnings
Title: Spirit, Mind, and Body
“Spirit, mind, and body,” the wizened ardent said, her voice echoing in the stone catacomb. “Death is the separation of the three.”
A: We’ll discuss the rest of the statement below, but for now we’ll just note that this is the source of the title. The ardent is speaking of Gavilar, but I think the chapter itself is dealing with Dalinar’s spirit, mind, and body—all three of which need help.
Heralds
A: Jezrien is the sole Herald on this chapter, which seems quite appropriate for the funeral of one king, and the reading of a profound, life-changing book by another king. And of course, the title of that book is “The Way of Kings.”
Icon
Kholin Glyphpair, Inverse, tell us (as if the “Six Years Ago” didn’t) that this is one of Dalinar’s flashbacks.
Stories & Songs
A: Continuing the quotation from the chapter title, the ardent goes on:
“The body remains in our realm, to be reused. The spirit rejoins the pool of divine essence that gave it birth. And the mind … the mind goes to the Tranquiline Halls to find its reward.”
A: This is the Vorin version of Realmatic theory, and it makes me chuckle. The body being “reused” is sort of hilarious; normally, you think of the “dust to dust” or “pushing up daisies” version, where your body breaks back down into organic material which is used by plants and all that, but Gavilar’s body is apparently being “reused” as a statue. In point of fact, however, Kaladin told us (WoR chapter 2) that if you didn’t rank high enough to get turned into a statue, your body is burned… so I guess it would be more “ashes to ashes,” eh?
The bit about the spirit sort of fits with what we saw in Mistborn: Secret History, in that most people seem to just… go into the Beyond after they die. So, maybe? And then there’s the Tranquiline Halls thing, which is definitely a Vorin twist on the afterlife. I can’t help wondering if this theology is based on what was once known of the Heralds, whose Cognitive Shadows returned to Braize to hide, to fight when they couldn’t hide, and to return to Roshar when they could fight the torture no more. Obviously Braize isn’t the Tranquiline Halls; the Heralds returned to Damnation, and as far as we know no one returned to Ashyn, but it’s the kind of mythos people develop. It’s not much of a reward to go to Damnation every time you win, for one thing. For another thing, while there is (as far as we know) no actual battle going on to reclaim Ashyn, in one sense the Heralds did fight for a sort of “Tranquiline Halls” in the sense that they were fighting for the survival of humanity on Roshar, which is their refuge from the destruction of Ashyn. But … we really don’t know what happens in Roshar’s afterlife, for non-Herald people. So this is all speculation.
“An old text. Ancient, once well regarded. It’s associated with the Lost Radiants, so nobody references it anymore.”
A: From the text, it seems that Dalinar had heard about the book, and had heard bits and pieces of it when Gavilar talked about it, but this is the first time he actually listened to what it had to say. Granted that we only have a few tidbits, I find myself confused. If Gavilar was listening to Nohadon’s book so much, trying to follow that example, and trying to follow the Codes… how is it that he was turning so dark, messing with trapped Voidspren, trying to trigger a new Desolation? The activities and aims of the “Sons of Honor” seem to be in conflict with everything Nohadon said; it’s hard to feature Gavilar on that path and developing the beginnings of a Stormfather-Bondsmith bond as something that could be happening simultaneously.
L: I don’t know… I could see him completely misreading things and jumping to the wrong conclusions. We see that sort of selective misinterpretation of the message of religious texts all the time IRL, after all.
A: True. Culture, mindset, worldview, and personal proclivity all play into how you interpret a text. It seems that maybe Evi’s influence over Dalinar was larger than we’d thought, if he gets such a different message than his brother did. Cultivation, too, would affect his later reading; here, though, he’s just got himself and what he’s learned along the way.
Relationships & Romances
He sought out Navani, and knew instantly that the ketek had been hers.
A: We’ll talk about the ketek a little more in People & Places. Here, I wanted to talk about Navani and Gavilar. I find it … odd, I guess, that Navani could write such a stirring and passionate poem, when we have all sorts of indications that she and Gavilar were not exactly united anymore. Just last week, she thought about how dark he’d grown in his last days; back in The Way of Kings, she claimed that though she was never unfaithful to him, she’d had ample reason to be. Was this just for form, or was it written with their early days in mind?
L: I think it’s entirely possible to be wholly in love with someone in the moment, but then to realize in retrospect the problems in the relationship. Hindsight is 20/20 after all, and when you add in the societal expectations of being a good wife/queen…
When she read the last word, Dalinar found himself weeping again. Jasnah dabbed at her own eyes. She had always been so much stronger than he was, but here they shared an understanding. This was their send-off to Gavilar’s soul. This was their farewell.
A: I’ve been so influenced by Navani’s hints about Gavilar, that I keep forgetting how much Dalinar and Jasnah loved him. (Also, the cynic in me wonders how much of Jasnah’s reaction here was grief for her father, and how much was anger at herself for failing to protect her family despite her assassin network.)
L: I definitely read this more as anger on Jasnah’s part. When she left the funeral she seemed more angry than anything. My theory is that Gavilar might have been trying to awaken Knight Radiant traits in her when she was young (all those hints we have seen about some traumatic event in her childhood) and hence she has a very complicated emotional response to his death. But… that’s just a theory.
A: Uh… I’m sure I must have heard that theory, but I don’t recall thinking about it much. It would fit so well with the sort of “snapping” we saw in Mistborn, and even more with Jasnah’s thought that “people she loved could still hurt her.” It was one of the things that seemed terribly twisted in Mistborn, and it’s almost more so here, if that’s what happened. At least there it was something the nobles’ kids expected, and had a potential reward they could see…
“I’ve been a poor father these last few years,” Dalinar said.
“Nonsense,” Adolin said. “You—”
“I’ve been a poor father,” Dalinar repeated, raising his finger. “To you and your brother both. You should know how proud I am of you.”
L: About time, Dalinar. I’ve so very glad that he said it, even though it’s come at the eleventh hour.
A: Hear, hear! I find it fascinating that he’s finally able to say it only after he’s made the decision to change. The effects of his visit to Cultivation are immense, but I really think his journey starts in this chapter, and this acknowledgement is evidence.
Evi had said the Old Magic could transform a man. It was about time he started trusting her.
A: A little on the late side there, dude. Still, she was right about a lot of things, and there are still the living to consider.
Bruised & Broken
Dalinar had started controlling his vices; he’d confined his drinking to monthly trips away from Kholinar, visiting outer cities. He said the trips were to let Elhokar practice ruling without Dalinar looking over his shoulder, as Gavilar had been spending more and more time abroad. But during those trips, Dalinar drank himself to oblivion, letting himself escape the sounds of children crying for a few precious days.
A: You know, back in Words of Radiance when Dalinar was telling Kaladin about “the Roshone affair,” he said that he “was … away at the time.” Many of us assumed the apparent reluctance to talk about his absence was because he’d gone off to see the Nightwatcher. It seemed reasonable at the time. Now it’s apparent that it happened when he was off on one of his drinking escapes, since “the Roshone affair” was at least a year before Gavilar’s death. That’s actually kind of awful, to realize that both Kaladin and Moash had their lives thoroughly messed up by something that probably wouldn’t have happened if Dalinar hadn’t gone off to have a private bender.
And of course, he wasn’t really controlling himself as well as he claimed. He may have stopped drinking as much, and he quit yelling at his sons and tried to be kinder to them, but he was still totally smashed when Gavilar died.
L: Alcoholism is a terrible disease and I do respect him for getting a handle on it, with or without supernatural assistance.
He pretended he was better these days, kept telling himself he was in the process of finding a way out of this mess. Of returning to the man he’d once been.
But that man had been a monster. Frightening, that nobody had blamed him for the things he’d done. Nobody but Evi, who had seen what the killing would do to him. He closed his eyes, hearing her tears.
A: These moments of honesty with himself are what keep me from hating Dalinar at this stage. He’s a shambles, but even prior to hearing Nohadon’s book and deciding to take a new step, he’s self-aware enough to see a) that he was a terrible person when he fought; b) that his society (nor even his sons) would never condemn him for it; and c) Evi, the outsider, was the only one who could see the damage he did to himself by being the Blackthorn. (Well, he did a lot of damage to other people, too…)
L: The fact that society would never condemn him for his actions, but he has grown to do so, is super important. Breaking free of everything you have ever known is a HUGE, huge step!
Bliss waited inside.
No, not bliss. Oblivion. Good enough.
A: That’s painful.
L: And understandable, honestly. Anyone who’s ever dealt with depression or trauma will understand this sentiment intimately.
A: There’s one other thing I wanted to quote here, though it’s out of order. It’s a separate thing, but it’s … well, here:
“After we win back the Tranquiline Halls? What then? No more war?”
Is that when we finally get to rest?
“You needn’t worry, Blackthorn,” Jevena said. “Once that war is won, the Almighty will certainly provide for you another conquest.” She smiled comfortingly, then moved on…
A: That was such a stark contrast in expectations. Dalinar is at the point where he hates everything that made him the Blackthorn; the ardent assumes that he’s just worried about winning too much and having nothing left to fight. Good grief.
Places & Peoples
A: What can you tell about a people by looking at their funeral traditions?
I don’t have an answer to that, by the way. All I can do is observe. The ketek, of course, is not limited to funerals; it’s considered the highest form of poetry—in Vorinism, anyway, with it’s symmetry and wordplay. But it does seem to have been the choice for a state funeral, since there are a whole series of them read, ranging from traditional funeral keteks to those composed for the occasion. Like this:
“You, always about dreams.
My soul weeps.
Farewell, weeping soul.
My dreams…
always, about you.”
A: This is a powerful bit of poetry. Isn’t it amazing what can be done within the restrictions of the ketek form?
L: Yes, I am consistently impressed with this form of poetry. Honestly I wish this were a thing IRL, because it takes a lot of skill to compose one of these in a meaningful way.
A powerful pose; the mortuary sculptors had done a fantastic job.
L: This is so cool. In the real world we have similar things in undertakers who make the corpses look better for open casket funerals/wakes. This is so much more permanent.
A: Quite permanent, indeed! I had to giggle a little about the soulcaster brushing the hair off Gavilar’s forehead, though; what if that little gesture messed up some very careful sculpting??
Weighty Words
“You will love. You will hurt. You will dream. And you will die. Each man’s past is your future.”
“Then what is the point?” I asked. “If all has been seen and done?”
“The question,” she replied, “is not whether you will love, hurt, dream, and die. It is what you will love, why you will hurt, when you will dream, and how you will die. This is your choice. You cannot pick the destination, only the path.”
A: It’s a little shocking to realize that this is the first time Dalinar has heard the beginnings of the “journey before destination” motif that will shape his life so dramatically from here on. The effect on him is profound; he finally makes a decision to turn away from the oblivion-seeking, and instead try something that might change him.
L: It’s pretty sobering to realize just how much something can affect you, even at an older age. I am reminded of all the messages that I see on social media channels about famous writers or actors who didn’t get their start/big break until after they were 30, or 40, or 50. It is entirely possible for one event to completely change you for good, regardless of how old you are.
“I must,” Dalinar whispered, “go on a journey.”
Paths. Dalinar could not choose his end.
But perhaps his path …
The Old Magic can change a person, Evi had said. Make something great of them.
A: Earlier in the chapter, Dalinar thought about how he’d managed to get his drinking under control and be a more civilized person while he was in Kholinar, but it’s pretty obvious that it wasn’t enough; he was completely passed-out drunk at the feast the day before. This is the moment when he decides to seek outside help, not knowing what might happen, but knowing that nothing he can do is adequate.
L: The first step is admitting you have a problem, right? Dalinar obviously realized this, but the choice to seek outside help is a big one. Even if his chosen help is… shall we say, on the over-powered side? He had people he could have turned to, but Dalinar has never seemed to be the type who would burden others with his emotional difficulties. So, it makes sense that rather than talking to his family or his friends (soldiers), he would turn instead to a higher power.
A Scrupulous Study of Spren
A: It should be pointed out, shouldn’t it: the Soulcaster we see here bears a certain resemblance to the stonespren we saw in Shadesmar.
The Soulcaster might have been male, might have been female. Hard to say, with that hood up over their face. The skin beneath was colored like granite, cracked and chipped, and seemed to glow from within.
A: Like… that’s not creepy or anything. But it sure sounds like this, from chapter 102:
There were other spren with skin like cracked stone, molten light shining from within.
So… do Soulcasters (i.e., the people who use the Soulcaster fabrials) end up turning into spren?
L: Hooboy. That’s a loaded question. When Syl talked about baby spren, she mentioned that they just… show up, right? So maybe this is accurate.
Next week, we’ll do Chapter 106 by itself. It’s not a terribly long chapter, though there’s a lot in it, but the following chapter is too long to combine the two. So… just one.
Alice is done with her share of the volleyball season; her daughter’s team plays in the state tournament this week, but she’s not going along this time. Life. Still, they made it to State!
Lyndsey is excitedly planning her trip to Utah for the Starsight release event in two weeks. If you’re an aspiring author, a cosplayer, or just like geeky content, follow her work on Facebook or Instagram.
This is a great chapter.
I’m really looking forward to when we get Jasnah’s POV, especially as I’m hoping it does shed some more light on Gavilar and what exactly his motivations were.
I don’t think I ever made the connection between Dalinar’s benders and Roshone.
Does Brandon write the keteks himself, or does he have help? It’s such a vastly different form of writing; it’s sometimes hard to forget that it’s all originating from the same source, and not disparate in world creations.
Brandon’s father-in-law writes some of the poetry (Shallan’s Lullaby, for example) but I don’t know if he writes the keteks, or if that’s all Brandon, or if he’s got another poet involved.
ETA: in the Arcanum, he does talk about what a ridiculously long time it takes him to construct a good ketek, and there’s no mention of having anyone else involved.
This might be crazy for me to say, but that ketek is one of the best pieces of poetry in all of literature. Yeah, I said it! Though I think it would have been better if Jasnah had written it. I agree that it doesn’t make a lot of sense that Navani wrote it, considering her strained relationship with Gavilar.
FYI: Happy 2nd Anniversary to Oathbringer!
Now back to lurking, since I’ve not read the reread yet.
This question occured to me when after Kaza’s Interlude where she died by turning herself into smoke, Kaladin(?) ran through the tent of a confused sapient smokespren in Celebrant. At first it seemed to me that this spren _was_ Kaza, but then I thought that the spren’s mish-mash of clothing doesn’t really fit a former human who only very recently transformed into a spren. But the idea about them appearing as baby spren makes a lot of sense. This would only apply to the Soulcaster users who die via complete transformation into one element, like Kaza does though.
And also, thinking back to Warbreaker, who else thinks that we are going to be treated to Kalad’s Phantoms Mark II at some point? Soulcast human bodies would be a superior material to produce stone Lifeless from – no need to put bones and such into them. And conveniently, there are whole catacombs full of transformed nobles, who possessed serious martial skills in life. Do we know how a shardblade cut would affect a Lifeless, BTW?
Concerning the governance of Kholin princedom, how much of the actual work did Dalinar ever do? I mean, in the years between the battle with Kalanor and Adolin’s birth Dalinar apparently traveled the world with Brashin the huntmaster, drank and got into brawls. I can’t help but think that while he held the title of Highprince Kholin after Gavilar became king, his brother continued to rule both the princedom and the country. Then Dalinar was sent to fight various border wars and only returned about 5 years prior to Gavilar’s death, as a complete alcoholic wreck. Then there was the year(?) they spent among the Parshendi, etc. So, did Dalinar’s going on a bender really affect things? Or was it the established state of affairs that Gavilar/Navani/Ehlokar ruled Kholin in practice and what actually caused the tragedy was that Gavilar stopped doing his part and even absented himself physically, Navani had to sub for Gavilar’s kingly duties and had no attention to spare for the internal affairs of their princedom and Ehlokar had to handle things on his own for the first time? It is also worth noting that Dalinar’s bender apparently took at least 2 months, since that’s how long Moash’s grandparents were imprisoned before they died.
And speaking of Gavilar, handing Kholin princedom over to Dalinar, even though it was mostly in name only while he lived, was a ticking bomb for his son’s reign. Friction between Ehlokar and his uncle and even more so with Adolin eventually was basically backed in, by creating a weak crown without it’s own royal domain. Sure, Gavilar owed so very much to Dalinar and had to reward him, but wouldn’t it have made more sense to bestow one of the conquered princedoms on him?
Is it mentioned how old Ehlokar is in this chapter? With the Vengeance Pact he made the one and only astute decision in his kingly career – his throne was very wobbly and he managed to point all the Highprinces in the same direction and away from himself. Too bad that he was unable to continue in the same vein and use the war to forge them together…
I love this chapter, and honestly I feel it is a shame more attention was not paid to Jasnah and Dalinar’s conversation over the Way of Kings in this re-read. It was a wonderful moment. We see Jasnah in tears over the loss of her father, showing her vulnerability and sadness. The first thing she thinks to do after the funeral is try to understand, and research what he was speaking of. Dalinar finds her reading out loud the Way of Kings, red eyed. When Dalinar asks her about it, she smears her make up, the woman who is always impeccable in her presentation, messes up her make up and does not care. She is distraught and devastated. That communal pain that Dalinar and Jasnah share over the reading of the book Gavilar seemingly held dear. Jasnah read it for Dalinar for almost eight hours. That was their farewell to Gavilar. This private moment of only the two of them, they embraced. It was that moment when Dalinar decided to go on his journey, and listen to Evi to go to the Nightwatcher.
It was an amazing moment between Jasnah and Dalinar, showing both their emotions and depth of pain.
Ketek poetry does exist in real life! It’s a form called chiasmus, and this form has examples in the Old Testament, which is possibly where Brandon Sanderson encountered it. It’s a fascinating construction that by its repetition really helps emphasize its meaning.
I find the tradition of turning into statues the dead bodies of high ranked individual unbelievably creepy. I wouldn’t want to spend time walking in the aisle of “great men and women of Alethkar”. Besides, where are they putting them anyway? Throughout the centuries, there must have been thousands and thousands of them…
I was glad Dalinar did tell Adolin he hasn’t been there for him. This sole conversation is one which gives me hope for their future relationship as, before, Dalinar never seemed to care much what his behavior meant to others. This is one rare instance where he does acknowledge it and it was refreshing. Being the odd reader I am, I find Dalinar admitting he did bad and he was selfish to his son more compelling then his most memorable moments. At least here, I felt I was reading a humble man who realized his time as a drunk hasn’t gone down without consequences for others. It felt genuine and, for once, it wasn’t centralized on how Dalinar felt, it was focused on how he caused others to feel or not to feel, which I find considerably more important.
This is exactly the kind of introspection I felt was missing with Dalinar’s character arc, so I am glad we got three sentences of it, at the very least.
@5: Good point about Dalinar being named Highprince but seemingly not bothering with his princedom. I also agree this separation is basically what caused Elhokar to be so powerless: he had to query favors left and right since he possessed no income nor armies. He had to rely on others which definitely led to his trusting issues. Had he been able to secure his reign through his own personal wealth and military strength, he might not have ended up needing to give the throne to the real rich, powerful, and military strong man, his uncle.
So I dunno what the Kholins were thinking when they made the arrangement. Adolin could have also not grown up being so selfless, he might have grown up requesting the crown since he would have basically owned the military power which holds it together and the wealth to make it prosper. Luckily, Adolin didn’t grow up power hungry, but really, all their talk of how the Sunmaker failed due to his children fighting too much served no lessons here.
Elhokar is about 21-22 years old in this chapter. Adolin is 16-17. Brandon is not great with is own timeline, but a fellow reader made a really good one.
Is it just me, or is the highlighting in the comment section in the past couple of articles hurting anyone else’s eyes? :)
This chapter right here is why I forgive Dalinar’s attitude with his sons, and I find it proof that he does NOT get fixed when he goes to see the nightmother. He is already trying to fix himself before that choice…its just he’s human. It takes a long time, and lot of pain to gain forgiveness. Cultivation was a push that he needed, but she wasn’t a all out fix, This chapter proves that he does have it in him to try to fix himself. and here we can see WHY his family adore him, in a time of crisis, he is trying to step up from his behavior. This scene shows why Jasnah loves and supports him so, and why he sees Jasnah as the perfect adviser, they consulted each other in their grief and anger
Soulcasters turning into baby spren is an interesting idea- if it’s true, it would give us a good reason why the Cook didn’t want to explain things to Kaza- she was going to be reborn as as a Smokespren, so the secrets might not die completely.
Do you guys think I’m reading too deeply into it to question why Navani’s Ketek describes Gavilar as a ‘weeping soul’ who was ‘always about dreams’? Because those don’t sound like Gavilar to me.
I am glad that as part of a character development, Brandon had Dalinar so influenced by The Way of Kings. I have heard accounts of many people whose lives are transformed by a book (for example, the Bible). I have not been so swayed by such a book, but many have. I do not recall many other fantasy characters being so shaped by a book. I think this is a nice twist on the protagonist accepting his/her destiny.
Now that Jezrien is really dead, I wonder if any of the non-flashback chapters in RoW will use Jezrien. I could see arguments for and against. In favor of using his likeness on the chapter stones, the death of Jezrien does not change the underlying attributes now that he is dead. In favor of not using the likeness, it could be a signal that there are unforeseen consequences (or consequences not yet explained in the text) that affect Roshar because one of the Heralds is truly dead.
If I had to guess, I would think we will see Jezrien’s likeness when appropriate. His death will have no effect on the use of his likeness in chapter stones.
Thanks for reading my musings.
AndrewHB
aka the musespren
Navani is a queen, at a state funeral for her husband the king. Of course she would have a brutally wonderful ketek that tugs at all the heart strings. She couldn’t have done anything else, no matter what their real life connection was at the time. Even if she was pulling from feelings from their early day together, it just made sense to me.
Last October I wrote a Ketek a day for “octpowrimo”. They definitely varied wildly in quality (from bad to ok). I found as the month went on that I was seeing both ends of the poem at once and writing towards the middle.
I think there are too many spren for soul casting to be the primary source of new spren, but it’s entirely possible that some spren used to be human.
I just realised what oath I think Navani broke. It wasn’t an official oath like the marriage pact, it was the implied oath of Mother to Child with Jasnah. She let Gavilar do something that caused the “sickness” that afflicted Jasnah. That would also explain the darkness she had seen in him.
Gavilar was never on a good path in my view. He encouraged Dalinar’s burned earth warfare tactics as a valid means to gain his kingdom.
I guess I see Navani’s ketek differently, because the first 2 lines totally speak to a strained relationship to me – “You, always about dreams. My soul weeps.” An unhappy marriage, a neglected wife, the dreams don’t seem shared to me. “Farewell, weeping soul.” His death more an end to her weeping than a beginning. “My dreams… always, about you.” Maybe her dreams were about Gavilar while he was dreaming of other things, but maybe it’s a different “you?” The ellipsis could imply that. So the last part is a new start? Freedom to pursue a forbidden dream? How long before Gavilar died did she realize she loved Dalinar? Breaks the symmetry of meaning if it’s a different “you,” but maybe a brilliant way to both express and hide her real feelings. Just mho.
However you read it, Navani was a woman of strong passion, it wouldn’t surprise me that she would write a passionate funeral poem regardless of the state of her relationship with her husband.
@11
It’s hard to judge that when the only people we see him from were Dalinar, Szeth, and Jasnah. We only saw Dalinar interact with Gavilar when he was getting told what to do. Szeth never actually spoke to him, and Jasnah only exchanged a few lines with him in WoR’s prologue. None of them interacted with him as a peer, like Navani would have. I hope her POV of That Night sheds some light on her relationship with him. Navani is the POV for the prologue this time, right?
@15
The bits we see of Jasnah interacting with her parents don’t seem resentful. When Jasnah has decided that someone has earned her wrath, she just writes them off as a person in her mind. Her “conversation” with Amaram was nothing but fancy words for “take a hike”. She holds a conversation with Gavilar That Night, and works closely with her mother and has a fond (for Jasnah, anyway) conversation with her last chapter. I’m sure that Jasnah’s parents have quite a bit to answer for re:her, but causing whatever it was? I doubt it was that extreme.
@16: I will admit I was not paying any attention to the ketek, but your comments made me realize I should have. I absolutely love how you have broken down words which may be interpreted as Navani genuinely grieving into words where she literally blames Gavilar for being so self-centered… Or at least, this is how I am now interpreting them.
“My dreams… always, about you” is quite telling. While it could mean Navani dreamt or will dream of her husband, it could also, in light of the knowledge we did get, so far,mean she gave up *her* dreams to support him in *his*. After all, we do know Navani had to give up a career as an artefabrian when she married Gavilar. Was this implied when they tied the knot or did Gavilar make her do it after they married?
@17: I find it is hard to characterize Jasnah’s properly as her lack of exposure basically forces the readers to fill in the holes as they see best. Her parents could or could not have been responsible for her “time in the dark room”. They may or may not have done it on purpose though the relationship Jasnah has with them, as an adult, doesn’t seem strained, but there isn’t a lot to go one with. In this chapter, she does seem genuinely sad Gavilar has died thought it could be she reacted to having lost her father, not the man he was.
I do not know which oath Navani broke… Maybe something to do with research? Maybe it has nothing to do with Gavilar or her family per say.
@17 Kefka
Rhythm of War spoilers whited out below
Yes, Navani is the PoV for the prologue
Lol love that scene with Amaram. When someone starts with Jasnah, she does certainly make it clear her feelings. Can’t wait for the back five where we will learn so much more about Jasnah!
Let’s not forget the plural: the Stormfather said Navani had broken oaths before. I know Brandon seeds stuff everywhere, but I never took that to mean anything significant. For me, it’s more like God saying, “You’re a sinner.” And replying, “Well…yeah. I’m human!”
Yeah, I was going to say that a body wasn’t “reused” if it was turned into a statue, but I had though of reuse as the body’s substance returning to a food web through scavengers or decomposition into soil. But most of Roshar doesn’t have soil, and I guess a statue could be useful from a human perspective.
@14: I never heard of OctPoWriMo. Good idea. I should try it. I used to write poems constantly, inspired by my every observation and emotion, but haven’t written any in years. Maybe such a commitment could jump-start the poetry machine.
I find the Soulcasting the dead lighteyes Roshar’s equivalent of our world’s creating statues of dead rulers. Gepeto @8. I suspect (although I do not know for certain), ruling families and dynasties that used this practice kept them in a family crypt. Like House Stark in George R.R. Martin’s A Song of Ice and Fire series.
Thanks for reading my musings
AndrewHB
aka the musespren
Re: IRL keteks and poetic devices – [puts on his academic-scholarly hat]
yes, @7, chiasmus is somewhat related to, though it does not have as strict of a format as, keteks seem to be. As noted in the link, it is a poetic form found in both Greco-Roman sources, and (as you point out) in the Hebrew Bible. In the latter it seems to be specifically related to or seen as/utilized as a form of poetic parallelism (which is an even more deeply influential poetic form in the Hebrew Bible). It should be noted that a lot of the poetry and poetic aspect are lost in translation, as the chiastic form can be constructed on a morphologic, syntactic, and/or idea/meaning level.
On an even more prolific level than even in the Hebrew corpus, the Quran (building on pre-Islamic Arabic poetic forms) utilizes what could be seen as closer to what we could compare to a ketek on both micro and macro scales (i.e on the level of entire chapters/surahs, as well as the level of poetic phrases). There has been a lot of impressive research and work in the last few years recognizing these under the heading of “Ring Structures,” but again it takes a translator who is particularly plugged in to representing the poetic structures for it to be recognized in English (and even then parts of the form are still lost in translation).
Interestingly, it has been hypothesized that the usage of this poetic feature broadly can be seen as mainly being appreciated by cultural outlooks that take a more circular viewpoint on their conception of time, as opposed to a more linear notion of time as represented in most Western/modern notions of time. I don’t know if Brandon has made philosophical notions of circular time a major characteristic of Roshar rather than other Shard worlds, but it would be an interesting layer of world building…anyone see any other examples of such a notion?
Of additional note here is that stronger, larger, and more structurally developed forms of Chiasmus than generally found in the Hebrew or Greek corpuses make up a major literary characteristic of the text of the Book of Mormon. As such, it is fairly easy to see where the idea was seeded (both Book of Mormon and Bible)for Brandon. However it is also clear that he has, again, placed much more structure to it than in these other sources generally.
If there is interest in reading more on this, particularly in the Quran, but also elsewhere I can dig up academic sources and authors…
Sillyslvoene @23, I do not know if Roshar has a concept of circular time, but they do have another inherent circular concept. There is the concept that the Hightstorm starts somewhere beyond the Oceans of Origins and continues moving westward around the globe until the Highstorn completes it path.
I believe I read somewhere that ardents/philosophers/storm wardens have argued one of 2 theories: a) that the Highstorm is just one continuous storm that is recharged when it gets back to the starting point or b) that Highstorms always start somewhere beyond Oceans of Origins, travels westward and eventually peters out by the time it reaches the west coast. I believe the first theory for two reasons. First, the Everstorm works in a similar fashion (started on the Shatterd Plans travels eastward and hits the continent the opposite direction. IIRC we have textual support that Odium can control how fast the Everstorm comes and (i.e. the speed it makes its way across the continent). I highly doubt there is multiple Everstorms. This means that somehow it is able to re-charge itself. In a lot of ways the Everstorm is an opposite reflection of the Highstorm. Similar to how Shadesmar is an opposite reflection of the Physical Realm (a black sun; “water” in Shadesmar where there is land in the Physical Realm and vice versa). Shadesmar is part of my second reason why I believe the first of the two Highstorm theories is correct. Syl said that when a Spren wants to have a child, it goes to a place somewhere further west of the Roshar portion of Shadesmar. This “place” appears to be where the location where the Highstorm originates. I do not think that is a coincidence. And the recharging of the Highstorm in the Physical Realm creates something in the Cognitive Realm that enables new sapient Spren to be created.
Thanks for reading my musings.
AndrewHB
aka the musespren
@22: I thought of that too… The Starks crypt… which I found terribly… creepy and unnerving.
@21 often there are lists of prompts and whatnot, but there’s no reason why you’d have to walt 11 months and do it in October. Maybe you could use the reread here for your prompts somehow.
he seems to write them himself