Good morning, Sander-fans! This is an exciting week for the reread, as we’re in the very last chapter before the climactic ending and things are really starting to heat up in Roshar. The final battle is underway, our heroes are gathering for the last stand, and Dalinar is flexing those Bondsmith muscles in entirely new and unexpected ways. Put your hands up, because this roller coaster is about to take the final plunge!
Reminder: We’ll potentially be discussing spoilers for the ENTIRE NOVEL in each reread—if you haven’t read ALL of Oathbringer, best to wait to join us until you’re done. (It’s only a few more chapters, really…)
In this week’s reread we also discuss some very minor things from Warbreaker in the Cosmere Connections section, so if you haven’t read it, best to give that section a pass. Also, for Honor’s sake, just go read it already! There is also a tiny Elantris sort-of-spoiler in Thematic Thoughts, right down near the end.
Chapter Recap
WHO: Everyone. Literally everyone.
WHERE: Thaylen City
WHEN: 1174.2.8.1 (still)
Dalinar refuses to allow Odium to take his pain, and instead brings all three Realms together in the ultimate power move, thereby refilling everyone’s Stormlight and allowing Kaladin, Shallan, and Adolin to hop back over to the real world. Szeth and Lift are saved by it and come to join him, as do Renarin and Jasnah. Dalinar lays out his battle plans to save the city, and Teft finally swears that Third Ideal.
Beginnings
Title: Unity
“I am Unity.”
A: It’s pretty self-explanatory, no?
Heralds: Ishi (Ishar). Pious/Guiding. Bondsmiths. Herald of Luck (x4)
A: I have to think that this is, completely appropriately, for Dalinar the Bondsmith and all the cool things he does in this chapter. Everything anyone else does is simply centered around him.
Icon: Double Eye
Epigraph:
As I began my journey, I was challenged to defend why I insisted on traveling alone. They called it irresponsible. An avoidance of duty and obligation.
Those who said this made an enormous mistake of assumption.
—From The Way of Kings, postscript
A: Standing by itself, this doesn’t tell us much. Later epigraphs may clarify it, but for now, it seems that the implication is that Nohadon viewed his journey as a means of taking on the most important of his duties, not avoiding them. From what we’ve learned elsewhere, I’m guessing that he decided that walking “from Abamabar to Urithiru” was as good a way as any to meet the ordinary people of his realm. He seems like a man who eventually realized that he needed to care about the people of his kingdom, not just the kingdom in abstract.
Buy the Book
Rhythm of War
Thematic Thoughts
L: We had a lot of thoughts regarding Honor’s Perpendicularity scattered throughout our notes, so we’re going to combine all of that here. This is undoubtedly the biggest question in the reread this week: What is this? How does Dalinar do it? Has anyone done it before?
“I am Unity.”
He slammed both hands together.
And combined three realms into one.
L: The implications of this are just staggering.
A: It’s hard to know even where to begin! Or if anything we could say is close to the intent, for that matter. It’s huge.
“What… what is it?”
“Honor’s Perpendicularity,” Syl whispered. “A well of power that pierces all three realms.”
L: If Syl knows what this is, that means she’s seen it before…
A: Don’t you sometimes wonder how the spren know what they know? Are they limited like humans, or are there things they just know? In any case, it’s a fair guess that Syl has seen it before—and she understands it far better than anyone else thus far. There’s just so much we don’t know about Honor’s Perpendicularity, and some of what we have seems contradictory. Since I’m not allowed to speculate at this point, we’ll leave it at that, but I really want to know a whole lot more.
“No!” Odium screamed. He stepped forward. “No, we killed you. WE KILLED YOU!”
L: I can only assume he means Honor. But why is he mistaking Dalinar for Honor, here? Unless there’s a good reason… Dalinar appears to be doing something that he shouldn’t be able to do, that Odium has never seen.
A: I have never been entirely confident in any of the various explanations for this statement. Honor seems the most likely, but… I just don’t know. It might just be that he didn’t think anyone would ever be able to bring together this much of Honor’s Investiture again, after splintering Honor, and so he’s shocked that Dalinar can do it. (That doesn’t explain who “we” is, though.) I have to assume that eventually, Sanderson will tell us. As with a number of things we’ll talk about here, he’s clearly foreshadowing something for future revelation.
These Words… are accepted, the Stormfather said, sounding stunned. How? What have you done?
L: It seems as though Dalinar is doing something that hasn’t been seen on this world before. But if that were the case, how would Syl recognize it?
A: I don’t know this, but I strongly suspect that the Stormfather is referring to Dalinar’s effective defiance of Odium.
L: Oh, you don’t think he’s referring to the Perpendicularity, then? That would make more sense…
A: In a previous chapter, Odium had essentially shoved the Stormfather away from Dalinar, and how could either of them fight against a Shard? And yet, Dalinar defies Odium, and instead of becoming Odium’s champion, he speaks the third Ideal of Honor’s Bondsmith.
I was bonded to men before. This never happened then.
“Honor was alive then. We are something different. His remnants, your soul, my will.”
L: See, it’s lines like this that make me think they’re referring to the Perpendicularity. If so, does this mean that Dalinar is… part Shardholder? Kind of? Honor was a Shard, right? If the bearer died, then… what happened to it? Odium obviously couldn’t have destroyed it—or could he have?
A: Well, the Investiture is still there, because (as far as I know) that cannot be actually destroyed. The implication we have is that Honor placed much of his essence into the Stormfather, and possibly into the highstorm, and the rest of it… well, spren and stormlight are highly invested.
L: So rather than being held by a single holder, the Shard’s power is… split up? Diffused?
A: As I understand it, the power was diffused when Honor was splintered, but not in the same way as what happened on Sel, where the power is just flailing around in the Cognitive realm. Here, it was diffused largely into sapient beings, and especially the Stormfather. Now Dalinar is somehow bringing a lot more of it together than (I assume) Odium thought would be possible. It also suddenly occurs to me that, although Odium could push the Stormfather away to the extent that Dalinar couldn’t hear him, he wasn’t able to break the actual bond—so Dalinar unexpectedly still has access to all that power, and in some way Tanavast’s Cognitive Shadow. I don’t think Odium was expecting that.
Stories & Songs
“Ash.” He took her hand again. “What a wonderful thing.”
Wonderful? “We left you, Taln.”
“What a gift you gave them! Time to recover, for once, between Desolations. Time to progress. They never had a chance before. But this time… yes, maybe they do.”
L: I can’t get over how amazing Taln is. Even after literal millennia of torture, he’s still thinking of others above himself.
A: Right? Oh, my heart. What a selfless man! It’s astonishing to think that he approved of the others, the ones who had already broken under the torture at least once, just bowing out of the Oathpact and leaving it to him. If he were a lesser person, it would be sheer arrogance to say, “You all stay here, and I’ll take care of this on my own.” And yet, when that happened, he’s grateful to them for letting him bear the burden they couldn’t handle. Mind-boggling.
Those two only make nine, he thought to the Stormfather. Something told him there should be one more.
L: Can he only do this if representatives of all ten orders are nearby, then? Why else would Sanderson be making a big deal out of this?
A: Yeah, this was never clear to me. Sure, all ten are represented, because Venli is there, and as a narrative point it’s really cool, but why does it matter—and why can he “feel” it? Honestly, I’ve got nothing. Best guess, it’s one of those things that we’ll understand later.
Relationships & Romances
“I know what you are,” Jasnah said. “You’re my cousin. Family, Renarin. Hold my hand. Run with me.”
L: Awwww. It’s really beautiful to see Jasnah being really open and honest about her feelings this way.
A: The way she helps and supports him in this section is excellent—physically, emotionally, all the ways. It changes so much for him, and of course it gets him in the right position to be there when Adolin needs him.
Bruised & Broken
“I killed her. It hurts so much, but I did it. I accept that. You cannot have her. You cannot take her from me again.” … “If I pretend I didn’t do those things, it means that I can’t have grown to become someone else.” … “Journey before destination,” Dalinar said. “It cannot be a journey if it doesn’t have a beginning.” … “I will take responsibility for what I have done,” Dalinar whispered. “If I must fall, I will rise each time a better man.”
L: Wow. Just wow. This scene always gives me the chills.
A: Oh, most definitely. Goosebumps and all, this is a thrilling scene.
L: I think this is the lesson that Kaladin needs to learn, too… People fail. They fall. They fail those to whom they are responsible. But that doesn’t mean they should stop trying. And then, later, we get this:
He closed his eyes, breathing out, listening to a sudden stillness. And within it a simple, quiet voice. A woman’s voice, so familiar to him.
I forgive you.
L: ::sobs:: Of course she does. Of COURSE. Because Evi was too damn good for this war-torn world.
A: I can’t prove it, and I know there’s debate, but I believe this really was Evi speaking to him. It happens just after he grasps the Spiritual and Cognitive realms, and I totally believe she was there waiting for him. And as you say, of course she forgives him, because she always did and she always would.
L: Much later in the section, the Stormfather says:
These Words… are accepted.
L: I’d like to think that the ones he’s referring to are the “If I fall” ones, because they sound more like the other Oaths we’ve heard sworn.
A: Absolutely. There have been some who assumed it’s “I am Unity,” but it’s much more logical that it’s the whole “I will take responsibility… If I fall”—which is really just two different ways of saying the same thing, in this specific case.
“Maybe you don’t have to save anyone, Kaladin. Maybe it’s time for someone to save you.”
L: Poor Kaladin. He’s so used to taking responsibility for everyone else, that the idea of someone saving him is a foreign concept.
A: It still breaks my heart that he was unable to speak the Fourth Ideal there, despite knowing what he needed to do. We still don’t know quite what he couldn’t do, or say, but his own inability here almost broke him all over again. That whole bit about “we all fail”… you’re right, Kaladin hasn’t accepted that, no matter how many times he’s learned it. He can’t accept his own failure to save everyone he cares about.
“No,” Amaram said. “No, he’ll never forgive me.”
“The bridgeman?”
“Not him.” Amaram tapped his chest. “Him.”
L: Is he just referring to himself in the third person because he’s possessed right now?
A: Mmm, At this point, he hasn’t yet swallowed the gemstone that will allow Yelig-nar to control him. I think it’s more that he sees the distance between his ideals and his actions. I suspect that once upon a time, he really did care about honor and integrity, and through a series of choices, he compromised those ideals beyond reclamation. This doesn’t mean I necessarily think he was ever a likable or admirable person; he’s always, as far as we know, been an arrogant jerk who thought himself better than anyone else. But here, he’s faced with Dalinar, the one who did all the wrong things, now being the one who is able to take responsibility for his own actions and refuse the easy way out. Dalinar is proof that you don’t have to compromise with evil, but he’s already done it. The part of him that believed in honor and integrity can never pretend that he still holds them.
“I cannot know truth, so I follow one who does.”
L: Poor Szeth, he breaks my heart. I really hope that he learns how to trust in himself eventually.
A: Poor Szeth indeed. I’m not sure trusting in himself is something he will ever be able to do, but I think it’s possible that he can learn greater discernment.
Tight Butts and Coconuts
The light resolved into a man with shoulder-length wavy hair, a blue uniform, and a silvery spear in his hand.
L: Kaladin Stormblessed, king of dramatic entrances, ladies and gentlemen.
“Shallan, we don’t have an army yet. Lightweave one up for us.”
L: Hey Shallan, just make us a whole fake army, okay? No big deal.
A: I love this leap in skills, too. We saw a hint of this ability when she was determined to fight the Midnight Mother, and we saw it again when she created the illusions to distract the Fused in Shadesmar. I’ll grant that the whole fake army is a huge bump, and to some extent has to invoke the Rule of Cool, but I can also, very easily, believe that everyone’s skills are enhanced simply by the presence of Honor’s Perpendicularity (and also unlimited Stormlight).
Gotta admit, though, Dalinar’s almost off-hand assignment of duties here was hilarious in its own right.
Weighty Words
Teft licked his lips, and spoke.
“I will protect those I hate. Even… even if the one I hate most… is… myself.”
L: Wow. Wow. Such powerful words from Teft. The idea of protecting oneself as well… it’s just amazing.
A: I find this fascinating. Teft really doesn’t want to protect himself, very much, but he knows he needs to do this for the sake of others. So he’ll protect himself in order to protect them, which is pretty profound. You do have to ask, though: Will the Ideal of “protecting even his own hateful self” be enough to help him fight the addictions?
L: I guess it depends on whether or not he can keep it in mind during the worst of the cravings. I would hope that his spren would help to remind him, but… we don’t know what level of addictive the firemoss is. Chemical addictions are crazy things, and differ in strength in the real world. Cigarettes are hard enough for most to resist, but people with heroin addictions are far far worse, obviously. Is firemoss more like the former, or the latter? Also, will his bond and the supernatural healing that comes along with it help with the chemical part of the addiction, leaving only the mental part to overcome? It’s a multi-layered question, but I hope that Teft overcomes this.
Jasnah ducked the weapon, then shoved her hand against him, throwing him backward. He crystallized in the air, slamming into the next man, who caught the transformation like a disease.
L: Other than Jasnah being a certifiable badass, the thing I wanted to note here was how this Surge was passed from one person to another. This is really interesting. How does this work, without Jasnah touching the second man as well? It seems to break the laws of the magic system, but it’s quite obviously intentional, so Sanderson must have something up his sleeve regarding it…
A: It’s wild, isn’t it? I’m not sure if he’s just hinting that the Soulcasting can be made to continue from one object to the next as long as they’re touching and of the same material (i.e. flesh), or if he’s going somewhere else with this. Always another question!
The sword vanished as she slapped her hand into the wall of a building behind her, and that wall puffed away into smoke, causing the roof to crash down, blocking the alley between buildings, where other soldiers had been approaching.
She swept her hand upward, and air coalesced into stone, forming steps that she took—barely breaking her stride—to climb to the rooftop of the next building.
L: Okay so… we’ve got flesh to crystal, stone to smoke, and air to stone. Soulcasting is so powerful.
A: Forget Soulcasting, Jasnah is crazy powerful. She flows from one move into the next so smoothly, it’s like a dance where only she knows the steps—or maybe she and Ivory. There’s never even a pause to think or switch up; she just keeps going like an unstoppable force.
L: Makes me wonder how much she’s practiced in her “downtime…” and for how long!
A well blossomed inside of him. Power like he’d never before felt, an awesome, overwhelming strength. Stormlight unending.
L: Well, good to know that Renarin uses Stormlight and not Voidlight, at least.
A: I’m… not sure I was even thinking about that possibility! But yes, it is good to know. I love the imagery here, too; “strength” is not really something anyone thinks of in connection with Renarin, including himself. The feeling of holding that kind of strength must be amazing for him.
Cosmere Connections
The vines shriveled, as the sword’s thirst was slaked by the Stormlight. Lift fell back on the stone and pried her hands off Szeth’s head.
I knew I liked you, a voice said in Lift’s mind.
L: Thank goodness for Dalinar giving Nightblood more Investiture than even he can eat!
A: I wasn’t sure there was such a thing! Apparently the firehose treatment can save your life, if you insist on being crazy enough to draw Nightblood.
Oh, I wouldn’t do that, the voice said. She seemed completely baffled, voice growing slow, like she was drowsy.
L: She? Hasn’t Nightblood always had a male voice before? But… maybe this is only because we’ve seen them talking to men. Do they change their gender depending on who they’re talking to?
A: This messed me up so much at first! But then if you look back, Nightblood has a voice that isn’t distinctly either masculine or feminine, so the interpretation is up to the hearer. (This is a real mental disconnect for me, because when Nightblood starts going on about DESTROY EVIL I simply can’t “hear” it in anything but a deep bass roar. I can’t quite figure out what that sounds like in an androgynous voice.) Vasher always said “he”—so naturally Vivenna adopted that. I’m not sure, off the top of my head, whether Szeth has ever thought of Nightblood in a gendered form, though it seems he must have. In any case, what Lift hears, she interprets as feminine, so… “she.”
His face was crisscrossed with lines where the vines had been. That somehow left his skin grey in streaks, the color of stone. Lift’s arms bore the same. Huh.
L: So Nightblood was leeching away their color?
A: …I guess? He did this to Vasher, too, but I really don’t know what’s going on with that.
L: At least it doesn’t appear to be permanent, though, right? As the Vasher we see here in Roshar isn’t described as having a bunch of grey lines all over him. Is it just… Leeching away the pigment of the skin, which is repaired when the skin eventually replaces itself?
A: Best guess, yes?
Quality Quotations
“As I recall, you have a score to settle with the highlord.”
“You could say that.”
L: Understatement of the century, but man am I happy to see Kaladin get a chance to take on this scumbag.
A: Hear, hear!
A: Next week should be… interesting. Chapter 120 is 45 pages long, and there’s simply no way we’re going to cover it in one go; we’re planning to do it in two installments. Unfortunately, we can’t tell you just yet how we’re going to divide it up, because we haven’t figured that out yet! Read the whole thing, I guess, and be prepared for anything? (I mean… I dare you to stop reading halfway through that chapter anyway, so there’s that.)
L: I’d suspect that we’re going to try to stop approximately halfway through, so around 22 or 23 pages.
Alice is highly amused at the local coronavirus panic-attack antics. (Not the disease itself, mind you—just the crazy ways people react.) Most of the tech businesses are launching full-out work-from-home efforts, and the schools are experimenting with remote classrooms. Traffic is so much better…
Lyndsey is heading into Boston this weekend to celebrate St. Patrick’s Day, Coronavirus be damned. (Don’t worry, she’ll wash her hands thoroughly.) If you’re an aspiring author, a cosplayer, or just like geeky content, follow her work on Facebook or Instagram.
I have a love/hate relationship with this chapter.
The parts I liked:
TALN. Oh my. In one sentence, Brandon took a character I couldn’t care less about and made me love him, relate to him, and wish to read more of him. His lack of anger towards those who betrayed him and his happiness at knowing he managed to give mankind 4000 thousand years of peace was mesmerizing. I hope Taln is no longer crazy in RoW.
Kaladin NOT saying the fourth oath. I loved it because his progression at became so predictable after WoK/WoR, it was great to read Brandon toss in a stick into the wheel. It was good to witness a Radiant holding on known oaths out of realizing he is just not ready for them. It is such a sharp contrast with Shallan who spoke oaths too early. Hence, I loved this part.
Amaram admitting he cannot forgive himself for what he has done. This was the one sole glimpse into his mind we got and the one single glimpse which tells us he was not all rotten. He did regret his actions, he did feel grief, but he couldn’t accept his own guilt nor forgive himself for it. I thought it was touching in a tragic kind of way. I, however, disagree Dalinar is such a great example… Had Dalinar been make to face Odium only 6 years ago, he would have done exactly the same as Amaram.
The parts I disliked:
Jasnah morphing into a badass fighter too powerful for any foes. No. Just no. This does not work out in my mind. I always thought it was bad enough to have a character who’s smarter than everyone else, who’s always right, who can do no wrong, now on top of everything she rules onto the battlefield? I disliked this new take on Jasnah. It will take time to get used to it and it also raises the question as to when and how she acquired any fighting capacities. I never bought the argument “she is so smart she knew it would be useful so she secrelty trained with secret trainers”. I just want Jasnah to get knock down a peg or two. To fail. Right here, I thought it was too much cramped into one character.
The perpenticularity. OK. It was a tad too convenient perhaps? A tad too powerful? A tad too much? I enjoyed the emotional intensity of the scene, but I disliked how Dalinar just creates a perpenticularity out of thin air. Maybe I am just dumb, but I don’t quite follow how/why Dalinar can do this, how/why he knows he can do this and how/why he can manage it on his first try without experimenting with it first. Shouldn’t magic be hard and require practice? I have been called an idiot by so many readers for not having comprehend nor assimilate the “deep foreshadowing” Dalinar could do this very thing which was pluck into the narrative some 600 pages ago, but honestly, I didn’t and this scene just felt like… too much. Too much power creep, not enough ground basis to understand it.
The part I hated:
Dalinar not bothering to give his wounded son a few words, not taking 5 seconds to ask him if he is alright and downright discarding him as useless now he has his Radiants. I am aware a majority of readers do not feel the same about the scene, but this one scene made me severely judge Dalinar. He cannot give 5 seconds of priority to his own son? 5 seconds? A reader once asked Brandon if Dalinar actually loved Adolin and Brandon’s answer was: “Yes, he does, but he does think of people as tools to be used”. So there. In this scene, Dalinar assesses Adolin is no longer a useful tool, so he does not bother with him, a fact Adolin will himself assess in his new viewpoint. And I hate it. I hate how a son can go from useful to useless in the matter of moments, I hate how Dalinar still thinks of his sons as tools before all. Both of them. Tbe Useful and the Useless: there always seem to be one of those. This is the scene where their roles were swapped. I mean, it is interesting for future relationship developments and Brandon further explore this, I will LOVE reading it, but it does not make me like Dalinar. I honestly do not mind not liking him, in fact I prefer disliking him, it is much more entertaining, it makes him so much more interesting, it just bothers me to feel I am not supposed to.
Missed that Glys apparently speaks from Renarin’s heart. This could just be fancy prose but this is Sanderson. So crazy theory time (that is probably already had by others) Renarin has a gemheart. He was born with it. Humans are starting to adapt to Roshar like other non-native animals have been. But this gemheart is causing issues in his body causing his “weaknesses”.
Am I missing something or isn’t Shallash and Shallan representing the same order in Dalinar’s 10?
Don’t forget the “lesson” from WoK chapter 36:
In this “lesson” we can see that Jasnah is already very good at calm, casual killing. Her fighting in this chapter may be a level up, but it’s not coming out of nowhere.
We can also see that Jasnah already knew how to soulcast at a distance and that Shallan didn’t have any idea that it was possible.
Amazing scenes! Love the Sanderlanch!
First, i think Syl recognized the perpendicularity because she has seen it before and knows what it is, but not how it was made in this instance. That is why I think the Stormfather is perplexed. Its never been done this way before, but through their bond, and the cognitive shadow of Honor, Dalinar was able to.
Second, Taln is epicness. Can’t wait till the back five of the stormlight series where we will really delve further into the Heralds, and get Taln’s flashbacks!
It really is a beautiful moment where Jasnah shows her love for Renarin. Letting him know it is ok, and giving him the courage to stand up for himself later against the thunderclast and the fused.
We have WoB that a spiritual “corpse” of a person does remain in the spritual realm for a long time before it defuses fully. So I really do think this was Evi that forgave Dalinar. Another beautiful moment.
I am glad Sanderson subverted expectations with Kaladin not swearing a new oath. It gives Dalinar his moment to shine, and causes the entire fanbase to wonder what the next oath is. Truly one of the biggest questions at the end of Oathbringer.
I have hope for Szeth. He claimed responsibility of his actions, and has begun to learn to question. Trying to be better.
The description of the high fire moss causes does sound a lot like opium or heroine. In which case, that is going to be a really really hard addiction for Teft to deal with. It is going to be a daily battle for the rest of his life.
I think the “disease” spreading soulcasting might be a combination of transformation and transportation. It is awesome and incredibly cool to see Jasnah use her magic. Elsecallers FTW!
As to Jasnah’s skill in soulcasting, we have WoB that Jasnah is the longest continuous bonded radiant of our entire cast. So the woman has had time to practice her art.
So for the 10 we have:
Bondsmith – Dalinar
Truthwatcher – Renarin (but was he present?)
Skybreaker – Szeth
Edgedancer – Lift
Lightweaver – Shallan
Windrunner – Kaladin
Dustbringer – Ash (she’s their patron, despite being Our Lightweaver’s namesake)
Stoneward – Taln
Elsecaller – Jasnah
Willshaper – Venli (had she said oaths yet?)
But 2 of them were a world away, so their presence can’t be what allows the perpendicularity to form. Also, just because Syl recognizes it, doesn’t mean she’s seen it before. It’s entirely possible she had just heard that such a thing was possible on a theoretical level.
@2 Simpol
There is a theory that as Knights wear more oaths, they grow a gemheart in their chest which allows them to hold stormlight better. We do know via WoB that the further you process, the more efficient you are with stormlight. So could be. Or as you said, it could be bonding the corrupted glys could result in Renarin producing a gemheart of his own. Gotta say Renarin is one of the most interesting characters in the novels to me and one of the most I want to learn the most about.
@3 Nazrax
Interesting tidbit. There is a WoB that confirms that ranged soulcasting is not a resonance. It is a skill that can be learned by Elsecallers or Lightweavers. Just Elsecallers are naturally better at it. A lightweaver would have to focus on soulcasting to learn that.
Questioner
Is Jasnah being able to Soulcast at a distance the resonance of her two Surges or is that just a Radiant thing that’s not with the fabrials.
Brandon Sanderson
Jasnah’s Order is better at that than others. It is not impossible that you could imagine a Lightweaver being able to do it.
Starsight Release Party (Nov. 26, 2019)
I missed that Dalinar at least partially ascended on my first read, until my daughter pointed it out, that he became Unity. Perhaps because I am not familiar with the rest of the Cosmere? Apparently Dalinar puts a “unity” spin on honor, which I suppose makes sense given that that has been the Stormfather’s ongoing message (“Unite them”), and his Bondsmith powers are about bringing people together.
I gotta say, I love Kaladin’s arc in Oathbringer. It sort of takes a sharp turn from where I thought it was going, and becomes about Kaladin learning to see that he has people who have his back, and needing their help isn’t akin to failure. So much character growth, and so satisfying.
Amaram… I still wish we had gotten a bit more about how him. Did he figure, well I wanted to start this Desolation, guess I better finish it? How much has he been under the influence of Odium all these years? He seems to have knuckled under to Odium’s will, where Dalinar defies it. Heh, the funny thing is, I heard that originally Amaram was supposed to die in WoR, and Sadeas live, but I think it was a really good choice to switch that around.because as horrible as Sadeas was he owned it, and I just think he wouldn’t willingly downgrade himself to minion status, whereas Amaram seems to be a soggy waffle who always needs someone up the chain to validate what he wants to do.
About Nightblood leeching color, I just want to point out again that Kaladin turns his skin grey in tWoK when he overuses his powers to draw all the arrows into his shield. This suggests to me that everyone, everywhere has a little bit of investiture they could draw on– though it just might cost them their life to use it.
Shallan’s power upgrade is substantial, but at least we see her practice and learn new abilities, so they don’t come out of the blue. She is definitely a powerhouse, and she still isn’t even using all her powerset, because she hasn’t mastered Soulcasting, armor summoning, and swordsmanship. But she is our best (only?) example of what power level we can expect from fourth Oath level Knights Radiant.
I don’t get how Soulcasting works, at least the way Jasnah uses it. It disturbs me that Soulcasting people is so easy. I don’t get why humans are so easily changed before they are dead. The Soulcasting by contagion thing makes no sense to me at all. The conjuring stone steps out of thin air as she runs– pressing that a bit, since there wouldn’t be time for even a command let alone a conversation with the “soul” of the air (still wondering how air even works). I suppose this is also an example of the shear power of fourth Oath Knights, but I’d be more satisfied if I could make sense of Soulcasting.
Dalinar has a Superspren, and his power is off the chart at Third level. I guess it has been laid out that the powers of a god are backing this, so I shouldn’t have been so surprised for Dalinar to become a demigod. Not having read other Cosmere stuff (except Warbreaker), I guess I just don’t have the context to have seen it coming. Although Perpendicularities have been mentioned I don’t think I had enough information about them or Dalinar’s powers to realize that summoning one at the third Oath was even a possibility. Dalinar defying Odium–Pure Awesome; Dalinar summoning a Perpendicularity– huh?
This quote:
I’m going to lay money, here and now, that when we eventually get a flashback book involving Renarin or Jasnah, this line is going to come back as a way of showing their bond as younger children. Can’t you see Jasnah saying this to the child Renarin as he stands afraid to run like the other children because of the weakness of his eyes / body?
Teft’s oath made me all choked up :)
I’m assuming this has been theorized, but the ‘we’ isn’t Odium + Cultivation, is it?
@2 Symbol, 8 Kefka: Shalash is the Lightweaver patron, so following Dalinar’s count leaves us with two Lightweavers and no Dustbringers. Which leads into the theory that Ash is eventually going to officially abandon the whole ‘patron to Lightweavers’ thing and join the Dustbringers instead- so Nale would no longer be the only Herald that’s also a Radiant, but he would remain the only Herald who joined his own order.
This chapter is so amazing.
I think that the subsequent battle between Kaladin and Amaram confirms that Amaram is suggesting that, if he gave up Odium’s help, he wouldn’t be able to forgive himself. Kaladin pushes him on that. He sees that, deep down, Amaram realizes that he’s failed, that he’s guilty.
Jasnah is obviously the most skilled of the Radiants. She’s been doing it the longest, and she has the kind of personality where she would have been practicing and testing the possibilities for many years. It seems she’s probably the only one whose sworn the Fourth Ideal.
WARNING: very long.
Sanderson refers to “Vessels” of the Shards, for what that is worth. And Odium refers to Dalinar as “Ascending,” (@nightheron–not in this chapter, but later) which is how Sanderson (and in-world characters, e. g. in Secret History) refer to someone who takes up a large part of a Shard’s power, as with Rashek (from Mistborn) Ascending when he took up Preservation’s power. Note that Rashek did not become a Vessel, and was not beyond the opposition of all normal humans. He had to bribe and manipulate like crazy to finally become the Lord Ruler.
Brandon has said that Odium has improved his Splintering (god-murdering) technique. On Sel, he won, but he was injured. There’s a reason his visual representation walks with a cane–Dominion hurt him. He changed his method of Shard-destruction to avoid more injuries. As the Stormfather explained, Shards don’t heal (paradoxically, since Investiture lets mortals heal).
Note that lots of people talk about “do better” in this book, notably Kaladin in Chapter 7. Another beginning/end mirroring, but a very minor one.
Meanwhile, Nale follows … Ishar, who is a mad tyrant. He’s like a walking example of how bad an idea this is. Well, a flying example, anyway.
Note her throwing an adult man around with one palm strike. She isn’t using her Plate, so that’s either superhuman strength or a Lashing … or something else, of course.
I think you’re right that it isn’t permanent, but it might be mentioned that as a Returned, Vasher can change his appearance.
I’m pretty sure that Kaladin was just going normal “going into shock so your skin goes pale” gray, not magically losing the pigment in his skin.
For me, the moment of this chapter was: “Beyond it, Odium stumbled back.”
@Lisamarie:
We don’t know. My preferred fan theory is Odium+Autonomy, but we don’t know.
And it turns out that ‘UNITE THEM” meant the worlds (at least, this time), not just the people.
Notice that when all of Odium’s servants, and Odium himself, were staggering backward away from the Perpendicularity, Venli was completely unaffected. On the other hand, she was not supercharged with Stormlight, presumably because she had not yet spoken the Immortal Words. So a pre-Radiant, but not yet able to use Stormlight, apparently.
Kaladin and Shallan, in Shadesmar, don’t seem to have been supercharged yet, either.
Why? Proto-Radiant, or just laughing to see Dalinar stand back up and defy Odium? Was it deliberate to have Fen and Kmakl do the same thing as Odium and his servants?
“These words … are accepted.” Presumably the Stormfather means the Oath, but I like to think it’s also a subtle Sanderson reference to “I forgive you.” Those are the last words Dalinar heard, after all.
How does Dalinar know that Szeth is a Skybreaker? For that matter, how does he know what Venli sees when she looks at him? He’s not using just his eyes to perceive here.
Heh heh. He’s speaking to the Stormfather, who he is bonded to, and who is sometimes considered a god. He has met Cultivation. He just drove Odium back with his aura of power. We know, but Dalinar doesn’t yet, that all ten Heralds were at the party where Gavilar was killed. Yeah, just maybe ….
Amaram says that he can never forgive himself. NEITHER DID DALINAR–Evi literally forgave him from beyond the grave. If Kaladin had forgiven Amaram, could he have been redeemed? (The difference, of course, is that Amaram never managed to ask for forgiveness. That’s a really Christian theme, there.)
@7: This post echoes my thoughts. Of all his books, Oathbringer comes across as the one Sanderson’s book which required readers to be heavily familiar with the Cosmere and its magic particularities to fully enjoy. Without having read A Secret History, readers have on way of knowing what a perpenticularity us and even then, the concept is so bizarre, I do not find it is one easily assimilated.
I would thus hope for Brandon to find ways to solve the gap in between his heavily informed fandom and his more casual readers by perhaps adding more context inside the books themselves.
@11: Prior to OB’s release, we had a WoB stating Shallan was the most advanced Radiants being the only one at the fourth oath. While nothing is said of Jasnah’s status at the end of OB, back in WoR, she actually was behind Shallan.
@12: To play the devil’s advocate, Amaram did not get the benefit to marinate in his drunken guilt for years: as soon as his deeds became known, Dalinar asked for his trial. How things might have played out differently had Dalinar been trial for Rathalas soon after or if Rathalas had happened only a year or two ago instead of ten!
I think it is easy to forget the fact Dalinar actually had the luxury of both time and a very favorable environment to help him steer himself in another direction. Amaram had neither.
@7 nightheron
The thing about Shallan and being of the fourth oath, is that Shallan regressed, and also tries to avoid the truths she has to come to terms with to access her powers. Pattern forced her to confront the fourth one, but it does not necessarily mean she fully accepted it. So it is difficult to judge what a fourth oathed knight is capable of using Shallan as a rule brick. Meanwhile we have a WoB that Jasnah chronologically had a spren the longest. WoB below:
Badger (paraphrased)
Who bonded with their spren first, out of the new Radiants?
Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)
Chronologically, and of the ones we know, Jasnah.
Phoenix Comic-Con 2016 (June 2, 2016)
As to soulcasting, everything has innate investiture. From rocks, to trees, to people. Just in varying degrees. People are more difficult to soulcast because they have more innate investiture than a rock or a tree for instance, but a fabrial soulcaster is used to pushing through this innate investiture. Radiant soulcasters have even less limits than fabrial soulcasters. Think of an artist making a circle, versus a computer making a circle. The computer can only make a specific circle over and over again. An artist can make a circle. Make an oval. The artist can make the circle huge. Can make it tiny. And so on. The computer can only do what it was programmed to do and do that well. As to the soulcasting being caught like a “disease” that is a mystery we will have to RAFO! Lol. Soulcasting is my favorite magic system of Brandon’s so far, so I did quite a bit of digging. If you have further questions regarding it, please feel free to ask.
@8 Andrew Higgins
I think that would be an awesome moment. I hope you are right!
@11 Benjamin
I have my own thoughts regarding Amaram, but since I posted them before in a prior chapter re-read, I don’t see a reason to repeat them. I wish you luck with your intepretation!
Regarding Jasnah, I whole heartily agree. She is a scientist and scholar at heart. Give her a new tool, and she will try to learn all she can about it. I think she is the only one that swore the fourth ideal, and has come to terms with it enough to fully employ the powers associated with that level
@12 Carl
Good catch about Kaladin saying “do better” at the beginning mirroring Dalinars.
There are people that theorize Jasnah throwing the people around is a low key use of transportation regarding motion and inertia.
I took this as Dalinar taking stock, a head count, rather than that all 10 orders had to be present for the Perpendicularity to work. Or maybe he expected to draw all the serge binders toward him when he became Unity. And only 9/10 came? Because Malata is elsewhere and a traitor? I like the theory that Shalash is becoming a Dustbringer, though. Seems to fit her current mentality.
Dalinar as Bondsmith can apparently sense when someone is in the early stages of a spren bond. In this case, if he can sense Venli, she makes Number 9. So does that mean Shalash is not close to bonding an Ashspren? So many questions! Come on November!
@Marblecal, Malata was not needed, if you like simpleminded linguistic stuff. Shalash is literally known as “Ash” sometimes. Ashspren are the Truespren of the Dustbringers. Maybe she’s now a Dustbringer?
I love the final chapters in Oathbringer. All of the endings in the Stormlight Archive series are incredibly fun to read and I don’t know if I consistently like one over the other, but as of my most recent OB reread, this is my favorite ending!
I do think that Stormfather’s “These Words…are accepted,” and “How? What have you done?” are meant to be taken separately. The first statement (“These Words are accepted”) is, as speculated, just his way of confirming that Dalinar’s “I will take responsibility for what I have done…If I must fall, I will rise each time a better man” satisfies the requirement for the 3rd oath of the Bondsmiths. The “How? What have you done?” is just the Stormfather being blown away that Dalinar summoned the Perpendicularity.
Also, Evi totally forgave Dalinar. So he ultimately did get what he asked of the Nightwatcher and Cultivation.
As for Amaram, I question whether he ever really cared about honor and integrity, or if he only cared about appearing to be honorable and with integrity. Which fits into the “arrogant jerk” persona of a privileged light-eyes who wanted to move up in the world.
Finally, Jasnah. Just wow. I’m sure her haters will have some problem with what she does here, but I just read her sections in the battle of Thaylen with awe. Her love for Renarin is genuine, and her ability to handle herself against the bad guys is just amazing. By the way, I think we see some demonstration of Jasnah’s Transportation surge when she Soulcasts the 3 soldiers into crystal, as the force/momentum of her initial shove of the first soldier is passed on to 2 additional soldiers (along with the transference of her Soulcasting transformation to each additional soldier).
RE: Gepeto @13 – I’m not sure I agree with you there. It’s true that as Stormlight Archive goes on, it starts leaning a bit on readers having some knowledge from other books, but I think there’s still enough context to let you know what a Perpendicularity is. We know a) that it’s a conjunction of the 3 realms and, as such, b) it is a place that you can use to cross over from Shadesmar to the Physical Realm. We know that when Kaladin, Adolin, Shallan, and Azure got trapped in Shadesmar, Cultivation’s Perpendicularity was where they were initially trying to go, as it was where Azure first crossed over. (We/They learn later that this would have been a bad idea, as the Fused have captured that area.) c) We know that a Perpendicularity is full of Investiture, as it was able to refil the Stormlight of all the Radiants nearby. So I don’t think that anything you’d learn about a Perpendicularity in Secret History would inform you about anything plot-relevant to Oathbringer that Oathbringer itself does not already tell you, but that you are supposed to take both pieces together (as well as pieces from the other books) to inform you of the bigger picture of the Cosmere.
RE: 9/10 – I don’t think Dalinar is counting Shallash, because I don’t think he knows about her, or at least knows that she’s a Surgebinder, or if she even IS a Surgebinder at this point. I think he IS counting Malata, even though she’s not there, because this isn’t about the prerequisite to summon Honor’s Perpendicularity. I think he’s just counting off the different orders of Radiants that he’s met, because he was charged with refounding the Knights Radiant, but he doesn’t know everything about them, because the history of the KR was scourged from most modern records after the Recreance. So he “gets the feeling” that there should be 10 orders, because it feels right, but he’s only met 9 of them, including himself, because he also doesn’t know that Venli is a budding Willshaper, though he technically HAS met her…
RE Jasnah’s badassery – I think that Soulcasting at a distance has more to do with the fact that distance means very little in the Cognitive Realm, where Soulcasting starts. So while most Fabrial-Soulcasters need to touch the object, one who can peer into Shadesmar has little need to do so.
Simpol@2 – Re: Renarin having a gemheart – Interesting theory (I love crazy theories!) I don’t agree, but let’s see if we can work this out: Since Evi was Riran and there is speculation that Rirans and the Iriali aren’t originally from Roshar, it could be that Iriali/Rirans have adapted to Roshar differently than other humans. So maybe they have developed gemhearts and no one was aware of that fact? I may not agree with your theory, but I could see the possibilities.
Nazrax@3 – There is ample proof to show that Jasnah knows how to handle/take care of herself and would likely be prepared to excel in a fight. In addition, I would be more surprised if after 6 years of being a surgebinder she didn’t learn to become proficient in her abilities.
Kefka@5 – Renarin was present; he was right behind Jasnah and heals Adolin.
Scath@6 – I don’t recall hearing about the “Radiant growing gemheart” theory off the top of my head. Thanks for the knowledge!
Benjamin@11 – I agree that Jasnah has -at the least- sworn the Fourth Ideal for Elsecallers. But there is speculation that Shallan has progressed to the Fourth Ideal of Lightweavers as well.
Carl@12 – Nice Wall of Text! I believe Odium was first injured when he fought Ambition. He has been refining his god-killer methods with each subsequent Shard-splintering.
Also, good catch re: Venli not being rebuffed, but also not being supercharged (at least, as far as we know).
Gepeto@13 – Cultivation’s Perpendicularity (or just “perpendicularity”) is mentioned around 15 times in OB before this chapter, and the readers are familiar with gemstones (and Radiants) being charged by the highly invested highstorm in all 3 books. Non-cosemere aware or casual readers likely have the appropriate tools to understand what a perpendicularity is and what it can do.
LazerWulf@19 – The Stormfather directs Dalinar to Taln and Ash, and he accounts for those 2 when he counts up to nine: “’Those two only make nine,’ he thought to the Stormfather”
@18: I don’t like other readers being referred to as “haters”. Readers are allowed to criticize and to be ambivalent about characters without being labeled as haters. For my part, I found the Oathbringer ending made Jasnah be “too much” to be enjoyable: I would have preferred if she actually had tangible character flaws and visible weaknesses.
I think we should be able to voice out how we perceive the characters and how this perception evolves with future books without the labels whichever ones they are.
On Amaram: I agree we do not have enough data to conclude whether he was just prideful or if he did genuinely care about Honor. It would have been interesting to get those additional layers into the character.
@19: Do we really know all of those things? The existence of the three realms is merely mentioned in the passing and I will admit not having known about them in the first place, it would have probably fled above my head. We also did not know someone could create a perpenticularity nor that it would recharge spheres all around.
For the rest, Brandon has always been adamant in not wanting to force his readers to read all of his series to enjoy one single one, but with Oathbringer, I felt he broke his own rule. Oathbringer is the first of his books I felt I should have taken the time to “study” the Cosmere to properly understand and it bothered me.
@20: I will rephrase, I was personally not equipped to understand this passage of the book. The word perpenticularity might have been mentioned many times, it is an odd concept I had difficulty visualizing. Even then, there is no mention an individual can create a perpenticularity nor that it counts as investiture, in the same manner, a highstorm counts. If it was explained, then I literally didn’t get it or registered it as valuable information.
I don’t know where I would rank myself as a reader, but I do feel additional context would have helped make Dalinar’s great moment more magnetic. I mentioned this in other weeks, how Dalinar’s character spontaneously does a lot of “first time amazing things which haven’t been explicitly mentioned before”. I think if it were just the perpenticularity, I don’t think it would have bothered me all that much. I find the fact it adds to the cognitive adhesion (which I had never heard of before) and whatever he does to the temples which creates a situation where the character seems like he makes the magic work to meet his ends.
t made me think of another much-criticized series I will not mention which is why I wish for more context in the future even if others disagree we need more. I could have personally used more.
Well, now I feel that Ash has been a Dustbringer for some time. This makes Venli the unknown 10th.
Or, maybe she was a Dustbringer.
I’ve always had difficulty with what Teft’s words are. The Words we’ve seen from other Knights involve such great committments. Giving up your one shot at freedom to throw yourselves into a dying battle. Saving the man indirectly responsible for the deaths of many people you love.
Next to that, “I will practice self-care / cultivate better self-esteem” (which is what “I will protect those I hate, i.e. especially myself” reads like to me) just feels really…insufficient. Another reading could be “I won’t let my crippling lack of self-esteem prevent me from acting”, but even that feels like a lot less than what’s being asked of the other Radiants.
These Words… are accepted, the Stormfather said, sounding stunned
It’s interesting to me that the Stormfather is surprised that Dalinar’s Oath is successful. That would imply that the Stormfather isn’t the one choosing whether or not to accept the words. But he’s the spren to whom Dalinar is bonded, so who else could possibly be accepting them? If Dalinar is indeed uniting a large amount of Honor’s essence, could it be the remnant of Honor that’s accepting them?
He’s so used to taking responsibility for everyone else, that the idea of someone saving him is a foreign concept.
Hmm, maybe his Fourth Ideal will be, “I will accept that sometimes I need to be saved” or “I will accept that sometimes I need to ask for help”?
when Nightblood starts going on about DESTROY EVIL I simply can’t “hear” it in anything but a deep bass roar. I can’t quite figure out what that sounds like in an androgynous voice.
Maybe something like Galadriel’s voice in the scene where she’s tempted by the Ring? (“All shall love me and despair!”)
@wetlander, on the addictivity of Firemoss, Kal comments in WoR that his father hated perscribing the stuff for pain, so the opioid crisis seems a fairly reasonable comparison.
This chapter bored me, as large-scale fictional battles nearly always do. (Some of the ones in A Song of Ice and Fire are the only exceptions I can think of at the moment.) But I like the bit where Lift asks Dalinar where she can get food and he seems (IMO) a little bemused by her battlefield priorities. He doesn’t know that for her, eating = replenishing her ammunition and weapons. Though that’s not quite as literal here as it is with a certain centaur pirate I know of. #talesofpell
I don’t want to start a discussion about coronavirus when it’s all anyone can talk about everywhere except here. But I’m hurt to learn from Alice that our fears and our dangerously-drastic isolation procedures are deemed crazy and funny. I delayed too long before stocking up on sanitation supplies we’re supposed to have, because I was too embarrassed to be seen and laughed at for taking part in a panicked rush, and now some of those things are gone. Sanderson characters are wonderful because they can always joke and find joy and humor, even in an apocalypse, but I’m not up to being like them.
RE: I Am Unity / We Killed You
This is sheer speculation, but I think this must refer to the shattering of Adonalsium (and, presumably, killing Adonal or whatever entity was the Vessel for that, but that is the name I’ll use in the rest of this comment).
First, while we know that Odium had killed/shattered several Shards, as far as I can recall he did that on his own, not with any other Shard’s assistance. The only group killing he was involved with was the original one.
Second, Roshar was created before the Shattering, and the Stormfather existed before then as well. Since spren are pieces of investiture, presumably they are pieces of Adonal rather than Honor or Cultivation; and the Stormfather, being that much stronger, possibly a Splinter. However, the Stormfather has also apparently gained a portion of Honor’s investiture as well, making him an especially powerful hybrid of sorts. That could explain why he is changing so much from bonding with Dalinar vs. previous hosts.
Third, this may be an unexpected consequence of Dalinar’s “pruning”. Since he has been touched by her, theoretically he contains a tiny bit of Cultivation, as well as Honor and Adonal through his bond with the Stormfather. Put them all together and it also helps justify him having the strength to resist Odium.
Finally, it makes sense linguistically. Unity is capitalized, so it is being treated as a proper name. The only other instances when concepts are treated as names have been in reference to Shards. That said, Unity could very easily refer to the uniting of the Shards (Adonalsium) as well as the three realms and/or the 10 orders of Radiants
@1
Well you are forgetting several Things about Jasnah.
1. she has been radiant for the longest time of the heroes, she started progressing her bond in the night Gavilar was killed, so around seven years before oathbringer. if you compare that to the progress Kaladin made in a few months or Shallan, who had to start from the bottom too because of her broken psyche it shouldnt surprise, that she is that proficient. Also shes participating in a war and feared the coming of a desolation, its unthinkable, that she didnt made up her mind about/practicing using soulcasting in a fight We dont even know how far shes gone with her oaths
2. she did not have to hide her powers, since she faked of having a powerful soulcaster, she used her abilities very often, as stated by Shallan in WoK
3. The surge of Transformation is the one of the both surges Elsecallers are more profitient with, like lightweaving in Lightweavers, division in dustbringers etc.
4. On the battlefield was a crazy amount of stormlight
5. The realms were close because of Dalinar, so soulcasting was very, very easy for her.
Wait, why aren’t we assuming that Odium is speaking of Adonalsium?
Honor doesn’t seem plausible to me: my impression is that Odium, alone, killed Honor and that his return would not cause this much panic.
Adonalsium, however; we can assume that Rayse/Odium would panic at even a thought of his return, and we know that the original Sixteen worked together to kill him. Is something about Dalinar’s action here going beyond the “normal” abilities or levels expected of a Shardholder?
The Shattering (and further Splintering) of the original power has been a Cosmere theme so far, and we’ve seen hints that the eventual recombination of those powers may be a key element moving forward.
@27
That is not correct
(Bavadin is the shardholder of autonomy)
Its very ambigious, we dont know what autonomy did exactly do, but when we look at Roshar too, since Cultivation helped honor in his fight against Odium i guess Odium had to have some help from another shard to some extent
Its possible of course, i had this theory too like many others, but i dont personally see, what Dalinar would have to do with Adonalsium at this point
I don’t find it at all mysterious that Syl knows what Honor’s Perpendicularity looks like – it travels along with the Stormfather in the highstorm, after all, so she would have seen it when she was “mindless”, it is only that now she is able to put it into the proper context. Oh, and she’d also have seen it when Kaladin was consigned to “judgement of the storms” in WoK – it refilled his sphere, didn’t it?
I think that Dalinar is doing things that hadn’t been possible previously, because Honor’s Cognitive Shadow is now bound to the Stormfather and is facilitating powers that former Bondsmiths didn’t have or didn’t have to the same extent. Not to mention that the Stormfather himself is more powerful than before Honor’s death, because of additional investiture injection. I assume that splintering of a Shard isn’t just diffusion of it’s power, but parts of it losing Connections to each other and that it can be reconstituted by rebuilding them. Dalinar’s mini-ascension is a step in that direction.
Yes, Taln is wonderful, isn’t he? I have a theory that he will revive Oathbringer and become a Stoneward. Also, that he may be the ultimate Vessel of Honor in SA and possibly a multi-Shard. But what might be required to restore him? Might we see the certain character perform… a miracle at long last? There must be a reason why they have stayed around for as long as they did, and helping to thwart Odium would be a worthy culmination of their journey.
Amaram – isn’t it interesting that despite Odium’s promise to Dalinar that he’d never have to feel guilt again, if he surrendered, Amaram, despite succumbing, continues to experience guilt until the end? There is also this recent WoB stating that “he wasn’t just corrupt from the get go”.
https://wob.coppermind.net/events/410/#e13591
I still feel that Amaram was somewhat awkwardly forced into Sadeas-shaped hole in OB when Sanderson made the late decision to kill Torol and let Amaram survive Iyatil’s assassination attempt back in WoR. IMHO, his upcoming fight with Kaladin is pretty silly and is just there as a fan service, and him not blurting out what he knew about Gavilar when he felt slighted and marginilized by the Kholins was very unbelievable and contrived. IMHO, great as Adolin killing Sadeas in WoR felt at the time, it was ultimately a mistake, as having live Torol around as Dalinar was regaining his memories of the past and recontextualizing “the good old days” and their former friendship would have been much more interesting. By contrast, the heavily advertised in WoR great friendship between Dalinar and Amaram was entirely and inexplicably absent from the flashbacks, and in fact there doesn’t seem to be a place for it to fit in Dalinar’s biography at all. Oh, well.
Alice: Szeth only ever called Nighblood “it” in his PoV. Lift and Nightblood – is this the begin of a beautiful friendship?
Gepeto @1, 13, 21:
Jasnah’s and Shallan’s powers were disproportionally boosted by the realms coming together, in addition to getting supercharged with stormlight – neither is going to be that powerful normally. And they were very lucky that there were no soulcasting Fused to oppose them and seemingly the only lightweaving one was killed in the gem reserve.
And why are you so unwilling to believe that Jasnah would have done the entirely logical thing and learned to use the tools at her disposal? At least those that she could train covertly – she is still very inexperienced at Transportation, presumably because if she had some accident with it between Gavilar’s death and the Radiants coming out, she wouldn’t have been able to explain it away. She is not going to be such a powerhouse in battle normally – the circumstances of the Battle of Thaylenah just favored her disproportionally. She did fail previously, BTW – she failed to convince anybody of the danger she saw coming, she failed to get to the Shattered Plains in time and it was only luck that unprepared Shallan managed to fill in for her and avert the disaster in the nick of time. I am sure that we’ll see her fail plenty in the upcoming books. The glimpses of her PoV in OB also demonstrate that she isn’t nearly as on top of things as it seems to the people observing her from outside.
The Three Realms were introduced by Jasnah back in WoK/WoR and have been referenced since, the perpendicularities and the fact that one of them belongs to Cultivation and the other moves with the highstorms and the Stormfather, as well as the fact that Dalinar is Honor’s heir have all been repeatedly mentioned in OB. It is absolutely unnecessary to read the other books and series for information on them – and in fact they have substantially less of it than SA! Of course, it is possible to miss the build-up, but it is there.
I am somewhat with you concerning the wish for skills and powers to be earned via training and experience, but Sanderson, like most SF authors, really likes his largely ignorant protagonists discovering things in the nick of time and flying by the seats of their pants. Oh, and they are also always a handful against many, so they kinda have to be overpowered to survive. Which I find slightly annoying, because it is so overused, but whatever. The first Mistborn trilogy also suffers from it.
Anyway, I don’t like Dalinar’s powers popping up full-fledged, even given some foreshadowing, but it can be argued that this is the result of Honor’s Cognitive Shadow being part of the Stormfather now. It stood to reason that there had to be more to it than some pre-recorded visions.
I had a greater problem with Kaladin learning to fly so quickly and easily in WoR and being superior to the flying Fused with their millenia of experience in OB , and to a lesser degree with Shallan’s skill progression. Oh, and with both Lift and Renarin taking to healing mortal wounds so easily and without any prior knowledge.
Jasnah, by contrast, had been honing her Soulcasting skills at every opportunity (as Shallan noticed in WoK) for 6 years, so I don’t understand your problem with her. She is the only Radiant other than the Skybreakers and Szeth, who has come by her capabilities honestly, IMHO.
Simpol @2:
Personally, I wondered whether Renarin had done something similar to the people attempting to bind Yelig-nar and had swallowed a gemstone “housing”, which maybe then became incorporated into his body through stormlight healing or Regrowth. It seems clear that Glys can’t make himself invisible to other people and that he needed to hide. IIRC, the non-corrupted Truthwatcher spren weren’t capable of invisibility either. OTOH, if Venli could keep Timbre in a pouch without the Fused noticing…
Andrew Higgins @8:
Jasnah and Renarin wouldn’t have been children together – she is old enough to be his mother. But yes, I’d very much love to see their bond and relationship when they were younger. It seems to me that despite what Renarin told Shallan, he had been quite good at standing up to her, since I am quite sure that she tried to make him learn his glyphs when he was a child, but he had remained completely illiterate (even for a Vorin man) until he bonded Glys and needed to understand the visions. Hopefully, there is going to be enough of that in Renarin’s book, because Jasnah’s is sooo far away… I really loved their interactions in these chapters.
Carl @12:
Yes, per her PoV, Venli only draws in stormlight for the first time after she swears the First Ideal. Is Navani a budding Radiant herself, or is her reaction just the function of her deep (C)connection to Dalinar? I really hope that Fen and her husband backing away from the light isn’t a foreshadowing – I really like Fen! Good catch.
Szeth’s eyes presumably blaze with the gray light? Not sure how it would look in practice. But yes, since Dalinar is also counting the Heralds and indicates that he expects to see the members of all 10 Orders, he must be getting some information from Spiritual Realm. Venli’s voidspren, as well as his own bias may have prevented him from recognizing her – I don’t think that he would have missed her once she spoke the First Ideal and took Timbre into her gemheart, though.
@23: I am not a big fan of Teft, but I found his oaths worked with his character. I understand how Brandon wanted to show an alternative take on the same oaths. He chose to use Teft. I might be partial on the addition of this specific narrative, but I did not feel the oaths were weaker.
@26: Cheer up! Toilet paper is over-rated anyway and bad for the environment… There are other options…
Still, good commentary on how, in real life, most people do not react with cheerful humor. In fact, most of us are downright stressed out or just plain angry/annoyed with a situation which may last for months. I would argue this side of things is perhaps missing in Brandon’s work? The anger towards feeling powerless in a situation we do not control, the fear…. How come there is so little fear in those big scale battles?
@28:
1) We do know Jasnah was behind Shallan in her oaths at the end of WoR. This was confirmed by WoB. Her status at the end of OB is unknown. This implies Jasnah might have been a Radiant for the longest, she progressed the slowest. Probably due to not really knowing what she was doing, at first. Also, Jasnah would have no ways of practicing battle oriented skills since she would never have been in situations were she can use them. No one would train her for this nor could she asked anyone to train her to use the magical powers she is not supposed to have for warfare. She is a princess with a lot of eyes turned on her: she wouldn’t have been able to hide secret “fighting lessons” for long. Hence, Jasnah’s sudden proficiency at battle, does come out with little ground basis to justify it. At the very least, if it had been mentioned, in WoK, how the Alethi princess has been taking swordsmanship lessons in secrecy, then it would make the rest read more naturally. Or if Shallan found out about it. Something. Anything.
2) True, but soulcasting is not used in battles so she wouldn’t have been able to develop her capacities in this regards. General soulcasting? Yeah. I have no issue with this. I have issues with Jasnah stepping in a battlefield, presumably for the first time, acting as if she belonged there and killing Fused left/right when a battle hardened talented soldier like Kaladin struggled to take down even one.
3) True, but again, she would have never had the occasion to practice the magic she pulls out on this battlefield before. This would have been a first time for her. This is why I find her level of badassery on the battle field far surpasses what I believe we could realistically expect.
4) True, but also true for others. Yet, Jasnah is the only one we see coming through as some Godess of power who can do, say no wrong. Everyone else struggled with… something, but her. Look at how Jasnah/Renarin come across in this battle next to Lift/Kaladin/Shallan. Jasnah just waves her hand and people drop dead around her, Renarin just looks at a Thunderclast and he drops dead. Kaladin struggled like hell with his own battle and nearly lost. Shallan nearly lost herself in her illusions and Lift had a hard time steeling her gem. There was a great discrepancy here.
5) This has been speculated upon, but I do not think it has been confirmed (correct me if I am wrong). Still, it was easier for everyone, not just her. How come she comes across as the superior fighter next to Kaladin who struggles losing a handful of Fused? She kills them at will which is the part I disliked. Also, how come she steps onto a battlefield and there is no fear, no emotions, no difficulties? She could have been casually taking her bath as she killed Fused and the scenes would have read the same.
All of those reasons are why I disliked Jasnah in the last battle in OB. I liked her better in part 2 where she was shown having visible flaws potentially bearing long-term consequences.
@32
1) And? The skills of her soulcasting come with time and practice, not with the speed of her oath progression.
What exactly does she do, that requires special fighting lessons? Its not like she is a master swordsmen all of the sudden. All i remember right now from memory is, that she turns enemies into something else and builds a oil wall and sets it aflame. Thats more a question of creativity and intelligence, rather then fighting skills.
I do think she mostly kills Amarams soldiers and you cant compare the surge of gravitation with the surge of transformation in a special environment like thaylen city at this moment
Thats true yes, but that isnt because Jasnah was exceptionally good (although she was), but because she had by far the easiest enemies of all the radiants
I do believe, that Jasnah herself says it, when she thinks about how its far easier to soulcast humans, since the realms are close
Well the emotionlessnes comes out of her personality, mostly rational and cold, only emotional in special moments.
@12 We know, but Dalinar doesn’t yet, that all ten Heralds were at the party where Gavilar was killed. Yeah, just maybe ….”
I assume you mean nine at most?
Gepeto @32:
1) Fight in the alley back in WoK already demonstrated that Jasnah was quite practiced in her battle-oriented skills and took opportunities to test them in combat situations. Notably, she let a robber swing at her first, dodged the attack and only then let loose with her soulcasting. Also, she had survived a number of assassination attempts, so she is used to being in physical danger. Additionally, she had been able to secretly meet and work with Veristitalians, so who knows what else she got away with? For instance, when she wandered alone through the palace overrun with strangers to meet Liss in WoR prologue, that appeared rather foolish to me, given that she herself could have been a target for assassination after making many unhappy with her heresy and due to being Gavilar’s daughter, but maybe Jasnah had some means of protection even before she bonded Ivory? Speaking of Ivory, he is a swordsman and could have provided some of the instruction. Basically, rather than being “sudden” Jasnah’s proficiency was showcased from the beginning.
2), 3) Soulcasting isn’t going to be nearly as useful in battle without 3 realms being so close together and so much stormlight, but there is no reason to think that it wasn’t used that way by the Old Radiants. Device soulcasting requires touch, so of course they wouldn’t have been risked in battle. I assume that Jasnah learned to do so by soulcasting targets and even animals and took opportunities to practice against people who attacked her, like we saw in WoK.
Far from killing the Fused “left and right”, Jasnah only killed 2, and it is explicitely mentioned how closeness of the realms helped her do so. Kaladin had to contend with several Fused and Yelig-nared Amaram, and he couldn’t even concentrate on killing any of them, because he had to keep them off Dalinar at any cost. Kaladin’s abilities also didn’t profit from closeness of the realms, like Jasnah’s had.
4), 5) – unsurprisingly, we see more struggles from the characters who have longer PoVs. Also, for all we know Jasnah may be one of those people who remain cool in a crisis, but get the shakes afterwards. It is also explicitely mentioned in her PoV that the 3 realms being one/close made it very much easier for Jasnah to soulcast and to track the flying Fused.
@Gepeto, I certainly don’t think of you as a “hater”. You have non-majority opinions. Not remotely the same thing. You are entitled to feel the way you feel. I have no idea why that’s controversial.
I agree that Oathbringer has much more connection (pun intended) to Brandon’s other Cosmere stories than previous books. I think that’s deliberate. Mistborn Era 4 will be “full crossover” but I get the impression he always planned to ramp up the interactions as he got closer to that story. I mean, a major supporting character in the Stormlight Archive is also a viewpoint character from Warbreaker, Dalinar’s assistant when he visited the Nightwatcher is a character from Mistborn … this is not accidental.
@Marbelcal
Venli is a Willshaper. Confirmed by Brandon, IIRC.
@John
Well, yes. Correct. Sorry.
Wow a whole lot to catch up on. Love seeing all the Jasnah love! She is my favorite character and I am beyond excited to get more of her, Renarin, Taln, Lift and Navani in the back five!
@@@@@18 KiManiak
Looks like you are right regarding Amaram and I agree. I posted this WoB on a prior chapter but I will post it again below. Amaram is only concerned about looking honorable. Not actually being. And he is meant to represent the worst of the Alethi in this manner
Coachdorax
Did you write Amaram as an opposite of Dalinar or was he simply a bad guy meant to spur Kaladin?
Brandon Sanderson
I meant Amaram to be the representation of the corrupt side of the Alethi. Meaning they are all talk and very little heart. Very little of what they say, to the worst of the Alethi, gets to who they really are. They would rather be known as someone honorable than be actually honorable. And this I consider a major problem with their society, and I needed somebody to represent this. Part of it is, to represent a contrast to Kaladin’s ideals. This belief that lighteyes were these paragons of virtue. But I also needed somebody, you may say an opposite to Dalinar. In a way, he is an opposite to Dalinar, but more he just represents Alethi society. And I did want it to be that he wasn’t just all the way corrupt. When he makes his decision in Book One in the flashbacks, he is making a decision. There is a moment where he is considering. By the time you are seeing him in later books, that decision has taken him down a path that leaves him very far from any sort of redemption. But it was a choice. And he wasn’t just corrupt from the get go. But yeah, he represents what I feel would be bad about Alethi society. A kind of honor society that is more about looking honorable than being.
YouTube Livestream 2 (Jan. 20, 2020)
I whole heartily agree on everything you said about Jasnah!
@@@@@19 Lazerwulf
I whole heartily agree with you regarding the perpendicularity. We are told what we need to know. We do not need to understand grander cosmeric implications in order to understand what is happening in the story at this time. I don’t see it as diminishing the story whatsoever. Also what it comes down to it, for me, is this is Brandon’s style. Massive worldbuilding and magic systems. He is know for this. Sure authors can do things outside their wheelhouse, and should be good at all aspects of their writing, but every author has their strengths and preferences. Worldbuilding and magic is Brandon’s. So that is what is going to be the important parts of his novels.
That is an interesting idea. Elsecallers seem to be better at it enough that they can do it, while lightweavers have to focus to learn how to (I posted a WoB earlier regarding that). Maybe being so used to the realms, Elsecallers don’t worry about distance even more.
@@@@@20 KiManiak
Interesting thoughts on the Ririans and Iriali. They do have metallic golden hair (at least the Iri do, and the Ririans are related to them), so I could totally see them having slightly different body chemistry that could lead to different adaptations.
I whole heartily agree regarding Jasnah. She practices with soulcasting every moment she has. She is so precise that Shallan is even amazed that she can soulcast letters into a piece of paper.
Happy to spread theories. I do not believe that one myself, but it is certainly an interesting thought to explain the increased stormlight efficiency.
I agree with the theory that Shallan has attained her fourth oath. I believe it is confirmed that Jasnah is ahead of her in every way. Every WoB I have found says as much, so Jasnah could be just shy of swearing the fifth ideal for the Elsecallers.
I agree. Brandon gives us the tools to delve as deep as we want. We do not have to in order to enjoy the story, but for those that love Brandon’s worldbuilding and magic systems, it is a great ride!
@@@@@23 KatherineMW
Honestly with all due respect I disagree. I think Teft is swearing the same spirit of the oath as Kaladin. I will protect those I hate. That is still the same for both, and still encapsulates the wide world. The only difference is the person that taught them that. For Kaladin it was Elhokar and Dalinar. For Teft it was himself.
@@@@@25 johndd
I agree. I think fire moss is incredibly addictive, and I really feel for Teft having to overcome that addiction.
@@@@@27 RagerPavelle
Personally I lean towards Dalinar ascending briefly to Honor, and having interpreted Honor’s focus on bonds to being represented as Unity. That we refers to Odium and Autonomy. But I wish you luck with your theory!
@@@@@28 Havi
1. I would hazard that Jasnah has been at it even longer than that. Every WoB I have found has Brandon saying Jasnah has been at it longer than anyone else.
2. I whole heartily agree, and think this is a very important point. Jasnah could literally practice in full view without worry due to her deception regarding the fabrial.
3. I agree, and the WoB I posted earlier confirms this.
4. I agree
5. I agree.
@@@@@31 Isilel
I have a little theory of my own regarding Oathbringer. I think it is a willshaper shardblade due to it appearing like a fisher’s blade. Got nothing to back it up, but I am holding to it lol. I wish you luck with your theory!
Regarding Amaram, I posted the rest of that WoB above, and I think it shows the type of character Amaram is. All about appearing honorable than actually being honorable. I think it falls in line with my theory about him having Narcissistic Personality Disorder. I went into this at length in a prior chapter re-read, so if you are curious I would be happy to reference the page for you, but the TLDR version is an individual with such a disorder will feel guilty when they delusions and falsified world views are challenged. They believe in these delusions implicitly, and anything that threatens that, is viewed as a threat and reacts to those with anger, rage, and violence (sound familiar? Jasnah, and Kaladin). The ultimate goal of such an individual is to find a way to reinforce those delusions. So it all works out for me regarding that theory. But I wish you luck with your own!
I do hope Navani is a budding radiant. I feel like she would be a great dustbringer, but there is still that WoB in the past that seems to say she won’t be. Regardless how she ends up, I cannot wait to read more of her and the fabrial revolution!
Regarding Szeth’s eyes, yes he did. Lift’s glow white. Kaladin’s bright bright blue. And so on.
@@@@@ 33 Havi
For reference, (since this among my favorite scenes) what Jasnah does is:
1. soulcast a normal soldier into crystal, throwing him back, hitting another one changing him, then another changing him, then another changing him
2. soulcast a wall to smoke
3. soulcast air to steps
4. soulcast air to oil, for the fused to fly into, then a spark of flame to ignite it
5. soulcast the gap in the wall
6. soulcast a thin layer of rock into oil and ignite it
7. soulcast the ground to air
8. soulcast air to rock to engulf a fused
All uses we have seen Jasnah use throughout the books prior. So to me she did not gain any abilities. We just got to see then full on display. It is like saying to me that you know someone practices swimming every single moment they have, and then be surprised when they can swim a marathon. I whole heartily agree with you, Jasnah has the skill, the means, and the ability to accomplish all of that. Further I will add that Kaladin had to defend Dalinar, and it was stated repeatedly he has to hold back for that reason. He couldn’t fully attack Amaram and use his abilities (flying) fully, because he had to stay and protect Dalinar. Shallan has her mental problems she is dealing with which clearly did not help. So it makes sense to me how the battle played out.
Initially I favoured the theory that Dalinar had levelled up twice,
But there are WoB that state he only levelled up once.
Wrt Jasnah – She soulcasts a number of footpads and assassin’s as early as the first book and uses her second surge to get into Shadesmar in the second (it seems some orders can only access their secondary surge on achieving a level up e.g. Nale telling Szeth about using Division when he achieves a certain rank, Shallan’s attempts at Soulcasting leave her badly injurred) so I didn’t see the idea of Jasnah exercising her abilities here as too out of step. Though she’s been in Shadesmar for a time she would have been starved of stormlight there so it would be interesting to know when she trained. There are indications that both Shallan and Jasnah can already call their shardplate:
and one of Shallan’s lightwoven creations appears in shardplate,
There is almost deliberate ambiguity over whether its actually her rather than another aspect of her personality, Shallan is not always a reliable narrator by this point.
So since transformation and transportation is my favorite magic system of Brandon’s, I have done a lot of close reading regarding it in the novels. Maybe to help I will go over the things I have learned regarding it.
1. soulcasting as a fabrial is more limited than soulcasting as a radiant
A. fabrial soulcasting is limited to what essences that fabrial can soulcast, and further is reliant on the correct gemstones to soulcast
B. fabrial soulcasting is like programming a computer. It does what it is programmed to, and does it well.
C. A radiant soulcaster in a highstorm can soulcast any essence and it is potentially implied, is not reliant on gemstones to soulcast
2. to soulcast you need two/three things (two for radiant, three for fabrial)
A. stormlight to offer for target to change
B. the correct gemstone for the essence you intend to make (fabrial)
C. the will to change the target
3. Theoretically (I believe these things to be true, but it is not fully explicitly confirmed) the difficulty of soulcasting is affected by these things:
A. How much stormlight used. The larger the soulcasting, or more difficult, the more stormlight required to accomplish the same goal
B. tricks regarding the essences can make soulcasting easier. For instance know to to convince rock to want to be free to become air. Coercing air to be rigid as rock.
C. the innate investiture in the target. The more invested the target is, the harder it is to soulcast. This can be mitigated by A and B. Also soulcasters are used to pushing through a target’s innate investiture, so this does not prove difficult unless they are higher invested than usual. (this is why for the humans, Jasnah soulcasts directly, while for the fused, she soulcasts around them)
D. what you are transforming the target into. For instance, when soulcasting, it is easier to soulcast something into an essence, because that is the “default”. So going straight to fire, crystal, oil, etc takes less focus and training. You can however transform targets into complicated matter (such as jam), but it requires greater skill, and knowledge of the goal. For instance a soulcaster could soulcast a target into plutonium. The only limiter being the radiant has to understand plutonium fully, and be able to get that concept across to the spren in order to do so.
I think that is everything off the top of my head. I will add more as I think of it. If anyone has questions, please feel free to ask.
(side note, all of this except the radiant soulcasting in a highstorm is found in the novels. The soulcasting in a highstorm is the only one that is derived from a WoB only)
Sorry for the double post but I think I figured out who Amaram was speaking of when he said couldn’t forgive him. I will pull up the quote again for reference:
“No” Amaram said “No, he’ll never forgive me.”
“The bridgeman?”
“Not him” Amaram tapped his chest “Him. I’m sorry, Dalinar”
It doesn’t make sense that Amaram would suddenly change into the third person. He could have easily have said “I will never forgive myself”. No ambiguity there. So the next thought is Yelig-nar, but as pointed out, Amaram has not swallowed the gemstone for that yet. So who could it be? The spren that is possessing Amaram! We all forgot about it because Amaram speaks and acts normally, while most of the soldiers are bloodthirsty monsters, but we have seen them speak and act reasoned. When they capture Navani and Fen. The soldiers talk and act like themselves. Amaram’s eyes glowed red just like all the others, and that happened after the voidspren transferred from the cognitive to the physical and possessed the Sadeas army, including Amaram.
So in conclusion, Amaram is not speaking of himself. He is either speaking of the voidspren inside him directly, or Odium by proxy.
The men’s battle training might be working against them. They have learned how to fight with traditional weapons and therefore don’t really think about how to use their powers instead. Jasnah doesn’t just use a Shardblade because she had no training with it. That makes her freer to use alternative methods. She is experienced at soulcasting and just applies it to a new situation. We don’t know how many years she researched and planned ways to use Surges in battle. Even if it was just theory she is the kind of person who would think about ways to apply her abilities. Since she lives in a warrior society of course she also thought about battle applications. If the ardents weren’t reluctant to work with a heretic she might have organized the army’s soulcasters to do more than make food much earlier.
Gepeto@21 – Re: hater – Among various fandoms, there are many commonly used colloquial (or slang, if you prefer) terms. Off the top of my head, there’s: “shipper”; “hater”; “lover”; “stan”; “team (enter your favorite person/group/pairing/etc);” and I’m sure that there are many more.
Usually, a “hater” is basically someone that doesn’t like a person’s (or in this case, a particular character’s) successes or achievements, roots for that character to fail or at least be knocked down a notch, and makes it a point to expose that character’s flaws as often as possible, and generally in response to when that character is receiving praise.
Re: perpendicularity – you mention in your post @13 that you (or “readers”) needed to read A Secret History in order to know what a perpendicularity is. A quick kindle doc search shows that the term “perpendicularity” is only mentioned 2 times in A Secret History; it is mentioned 17 times (and 15 times before Syl does it here) in Oathbringer. In Oathbringer, Brandon seeds the term over a 20+ chapter span and makes it a potential objective of the Shadesmar group. In A Secret History it’s mentioned off hand by Hoid and Fuzz. Perpendicularities are plot relevant in Oathbringer; they are throw away comments in A Secret History. I believe that criticism of Brandon’s introduction and use of perpendicularity in Oathbringer is unfair and not supported by an objective reading of the book.
Finally, Dalinar’s powers – This is the Bondsmith book. In each Radiant Order’s book, we learn more about their power-set. It should not be a surprise when the book introduces them doing something they hadn’t done before. Sometimes they even do things that no one (including their own spren) was expecting. We’re all (readers and characters alike) learning their powers and new abilities together. You are within your rights to criticize what you like, but Brandon introducing a different aspect of a character’s Surgebinding ability isn’t just unique to what he did here with Dalinar.
Nina@24 – Re: Stormfather and the Words – I wonder if Stormfather’s role has been to accept the words, or to just comment on the acceptance of the Words; like maybe he can see the Connection strengthening due to the Oath? I’m just speculating, though.
Havi@28 – Re: Jasnah’s awesomeness – all solid points. Especially comparing the amount of time that Jasnah has been surgebinding to the others.
Isilel@31 – Re: Jasnah – yes, Jasnah would train covertly how she could, but it is likely that she is not as proficient in using Transportation as she is using Transformation. And thank you for pointing out that, of course Jasnah has failed in the past and will continue to fail in the future; she’s human. Just because she’s awesome doesn’t mean she’s perfect.
Re: powers and skills not always being properly earned – I think its fair to point that out for each of our Knights Radiant; and, to be fair, an argument could even be made re: Jasnah and her survival of her initial Shadesmar trial-by-fire in the WoR Interlude.
Havi@32 – Again, solid points about Jasnah’s skills and abilities. I don’t know if she had the easiest challenge of all of the Radiants (defeat foot soldiers, Fused, and rebuild a city wall), but I do think she was exceptionally good.
Scath@37 – I agree, there is a lot of Jasnah love in this thread and I am all for it.
Re: Amaram WoB – I think I do remember you posting it; thanks for reposting, though.
Re: Brandon giving us the tools to delve – I believe he has made that point several times; he writes stories that can stand on their own for the non-Cosmere-aware folks, while adding extra tidbits for those of us who are Cosmere-aware. In this case, Perpendicularities were built sufficiently up enough in this book for the non-Cosmere aware folks to get the gist of what they are. Learning that Dalinar was able to summon one was a nice bonus for all readers to experience.
Scath@39 – I appreciated the summary, but I had to admit that you raised my hopes when you allude to having learned information re: Transportation …and then you dashed them when your list was basically about Soulcasting. :-) I was hoping for some new info on Transportation that I had missed. Oh well! Hopefully, we get more about Transportation in Book 4!
Back to “WE killed you”. Couldn’t the ‘we’ just be the combo of Rayse/Odium?
All this talk about Jashna’s use of the fake Soulcaster just got me to wonder why no one commented on the fact that she wasn’t being affected by the sort of transformation all the other soulcasters had to deal with.
Also, the leftover gray lines on Lift and Szeth, isn’t that somewhat equivilant to how a Shardblade turns a human gray where ever they have been cut by one?
Alice and Lyndsey: In your short chapter recap, you forgot to mention that Ash and Taln also joined Dalinar. For that matter, Venli was also present.
Is Dalinar now a holder of a Shard (Unity). After the opens Honor’s Perpendicularity when he says that he is Unity? If so, was that an original Shard. If not, can somebody with enough will re-form a previously shattered Shard into a different type of Shard?
Perhaps Odium thought for a moment that Dalinar had reforged Honor. The “we” when talking about killing “you” could be that Odium and Cultivation killed Honor together. Cultivation said that sometimes things have to be pruned to let the entire being grow. Even though Cultivation had a romantic relationship with Honor, perhaps over time the Cultivation aspect of the Shard took over so much that she felt the best way to save her adopted planet of Roshar was to kill Honor and splinter the Shard. Perhaps this was because of something she foresaw. I believe that we learned that Cultivation is better at foreshadowing/reading the future than Honor. Having worked with Odium could be the “he” Cultivation was referring to when she granted Dalinar his boon. Perhaps her foretelling told her that in order to ultimately defeat Odium, Honor had to die and the Shard splintered.
I have to think about this for a while. I am not sure whether I think the above actually happened (Cultivation helped Odium kill Honor). I would not believe it possible except for two things. First, Cultivation is an immoral concept (neither good or bad). Sometimes a farmer has to kill (prune or cut of branches that are living) to ensure the entire organism grows to its fullest potential. This is also like a farmer burning some of his fields to help it grow better in the long term. Second, it would be unexpected and unexpected is what Brandon often writes.
Alice and Lyndsey re the 10. I think Dalinar thought that at this seminal point (defying Odium), he would have assistance of all the orders of the KR. Dalinar thought he only had nine, counting Ash and Taln. The Stormfather never told Dalinar which of the two Heralds were present. Dalinar assumed that Ash was a different order and did not count Venli. In actuality, Venli was the 9th (Willshaper) and Ash is the same order as Shallan. (Even if the theory that Ash eventually becomes a Releaser actually happens, Ash is not a Releaser at this point.) I like how Brandon is playing with a common fantasy trope in this scene. Frequently, the hero/protagonist will realize he needs the help of his “fellowship” to defeat the Evil One, which Evil One is a solitary figure. The Evil One may have minions, but he does not have “companions” who can assist him in the fight against the champion of the “good side.” Dalinar thinks he will have at least one representative from each order actually present. Yet he is still able to win this particular engagement against the Evil One. Certainly not the war, but at least this one contest.
Alice. I like your theory that the voice he heard forgiving him was actually Evi from the spiritual realm. Do we know if there is a concept of rebirth in the Cosmere. What happens to souls that go to the Spiritual Realm. Do they eventually become reborn? Or is there an endless supply of souls and almost all souls go to the Spiritual Realm after their body dies in the Physical Realm?
I have said it before and I will say it once again. IMO, Kaladin’s Fourth Ideal will be something like “It is ok if I failed to protect somebody as long as I tried my best.”
Lyndsey. Remember that at this point in Teft’s KR-hood, his ability to Invest would cure the physical effects of firemoss. The same way that Shallan realized she could never get drunk, Teft cannot get high. As Pattern observed, the Stormlight burns the poison out of the body.
Thanks for reading my musings.
AndrewHB
aka the musespren
Kafka @5. Ash has no connection to Dustbringers. She is the patron of the Lightweavers. Chanarach is the patron of the Dustrbringers.
How did Amaram go about contacting Odium in the first place. What happened to the rest of the Sons of Honor? Will they also defect to Odium? It seems unlikely that an organization dedicated to the return to the glory of the Vorin Church would support a race of people who would destroy that Church and kill all humans.
Lisamarie @9. I think it is plausible (I would even go quite plausible) that the we Odium said was meant to be Cultivation and Odium. I am not going so far as to say I am predicting that. Only that I would not be surprised if Cultivation and Odium worked together to kill Honor.
I mean who would not want someone full of “Passion” rather than a stick of a man who is obsessed with honor.
Carl @12. IMO, Navani exulting in the storm of Stormlight was because she was estatic that Dalinar defied Odium. Not because she was some proto-Radiant. I also believe that Fen and her consort shied away because it was this super bright light; not because they were true supporters of Odium.
Nina @24 and others. IMO, the Stormfather is stunned because he did not think it possible that Dalinar could defy Odium and even be in a position to say the Third Oath. I also believe he could not imagine that Dalinar could have created Honor’s Perpendicularity; but the initial surprise was that Dalinar defied Odium.
RogerPavelle @27 & Andrew Higgins @29. Interesting theory on the meaning behind the capitalization of the word “Unity” and the reference to “we.” I am not ready to subscribe to that theory, but interesting nonetheless.
Thanks for reading my musings.
AndrewHB
aka the musespren
@33: Wasn’t there a scene where Jasnah expertly draws her Shardblade? In Warbreaker, Vivenna needed lessons in order to learn how to yield her sword expertly enough to appear as if she could use it. The first thing Adolin teaches Shallan is to hold her sword. Hence, for Jasnah to be able to maneuver her sword well enough to appear as if she can actually fight with it, she would have needed lessons. My issues are said lessons are never mentioned.
Also, if the foes Jasnah faced were meant to read as “inferior” to the ones Kaladin faced, then I missed it in the narrative.
@35: We had this conversion before. Jasnah might have displayed some combat abilities when she disposed of the thugs, I do feel dealing with the Fused is several orders of magnitude more difficult. Let’s take Adolin for instance. There are no doubts he would easily deal with a handful of thugs in an alley with potentially more prowess than Jasnah. However, once faced with Fused, he is powerless, useless, and incapable to hold his own against faster, stronger, and more powerful foes. By this logic, Jasnah disposing of the thugs does not foreshadow the fighting abilities to easily dispose of far more dangerous and capable opponents.
I thus have no issues with Jasnah being able to fight off some thugs or low-level fighters, but her expertly hand-waving of the Fused implied capacities she had not displayed before. Granted, this may be due to a lack of exposure. It may be RoW will add enough exposure to satisfy me, at which point, I would no longer criticize this.
On the side note, it will be interesting to read how the three realms truly impacted the fighting here. Much is said on how it was easier, but without a direct comparison, it is hard to evaluate how much easier it made it. A future fight without Dalinar would help visualize it.
@36: I was not necessarily referring to myself. I do dislike the use of the terms as I will explain in my answer down below.
A lot of the connections Oathbringer made were lost on me. I think I would have appreciated a resume of the knowledge I should have before getting into Oathbringer. Brandon’s world-building is amazing, but it can be alien and hard to navigate through.
@41: Actually, I really like this theory. I think it helps put things into a different perspective.
@42: The issue with labeling individuals is it can be interpreted (and in cases deliberately used) to discredit an opinion by stating the one voicing it is unable to have “rightful” ones. Here are rather blunt examples: “Your opinion is worthless because you are just an Adolin fan” or “discussing with you is worthless because you are an Adolin fan”. Of course, I understand your intent was not to discredit me or anyone else when you used the words. My response was made to highlight how using the labels “hater” or “lover” can generate a negative response in those who saw those labels used against them to discredit their opinions/statements/arguments. In my time inside the fandom, there is nothing I have hated more than being told my opinion should not be considered because I was just “an Adolin lover” as if liking a character made it impossible for me to have valid statements; as if liking/hating a character automatically implied one cannot have valid insights nor good arguments nor actually see an element others might have missed.
In the case at hand, it is possible those who love Jasnah view her in a more positive way than they should just as it is possible those who hate her do the opposite. The “lovers” contribution is to emphasize all the great things Jasnah does, how she is capable of empathy, and how her skill level is plausible. The “haters” contribution is to state the flaws Jasnah has, to express doubts over her Queenship, and to ask if the narrative did offer enough plausible denouement for her skill level for all readers to reach similar conclusions, not just the ones who love her.
I find both halves of the conversation have value so long as they are voiced out with respect.
On perpenticularity: I will rephrase. I do not think I would have been able to understand what it was without having read a Secret History beforehand. I will admit had I not spend time in the fandom, I would not even understand there are three realms. I know those statements make me sound dumb as a fart, but rest assure I am certainly far from being dumb, I am merely lost in Brandon’s alien world-building. I find perhaps there weren’t enough explanations offered for concepts that are not intuitively obvious. Or perhaps those concepts require more “study” time then I am willing to give books I read.
All in all, I believe I would have enjoyed certain denouement more had I been able to understand they were possible. The fact I was unable to get this knowledge beforehand made me feel I was reading deus ex machina. I *know* this isn’t the intent nor what Brandon wrote, but I have struggled with Dalinar generating his perpenticularity because I did not feel I had good enough understanding of what he could do to appreciate it.
@Gepeto: To me, a lot can be inferred about a Perpendicularity just from its name. A perpendicular line is one that intersects another line at a right angle. A line that is perpendicular to one line is also perpendicular to any lines that are parallel to that same line. Thus, if we assume that the Three Realms (Physical, Cognitive, and Spiritual) are parallel to each other, then a Perpendicularity would be something that intersects all three, no?
Brandon started out with the Cosmere stories being rather self-contained, but the backbone was always there. As the Cosmere progresses, he’s starting to weave in more and more from his other books. This has two purposes: One, to reward the readers who have read his other books with greater understanding, and Two, to entice new readers to go read his other books. If Stormlight Archive was the first Cosmere series someone has read, sure, there may be some things that can be a little confusing, but I still think that it’s self-contained enough for a surface read to be enjoyable. If that confusion piques their curiosity and leads that reader to dig deeper into the Cosmere, then Congratulations! The marketing has worked. (If, on the other hand, that confusion leads them to drop the series in disgust and never read another Brandon Sanderson novel, well, that’s just unfortunate. Not pointing any fingers, mind you, just being hyperbolic.)
So, if you’re one of those readers who HAS to understand everything, then go! Dig Deeper! You’ll find that there’s more meat on the bone, so to speak. Take a WikiWalk through the Coppermind, and maybe stumble across something you didn’t know before. Follow the footnotes to the Arcanum, where all the WoBs are recorded, and browse that for a while. (Sidenote: That’s actually how I discovered Zahel’s other identity. I had totally missed it in my first read-through…) Just keep in mind that there’s a lot of stuff that Brandon has mentioned in the novels that he hasn’t actually explained yet.
I don’t think there are many WoBs that he’s just given out for free. The vast majority of them have been in response to observant readers picking up on things and asking the right questions, though a lot of those questions get RAFO’d, (which, for those that don’t know, stands for Read And Find Out), meaning that he does plan to reveal that answer in a future novel.
Also, I feel like you’re expecting a lot of plot points to have been foreshadowed. Too much foreshadowing is just telegraphing the punches, and that’s not really enjoyable to read. There’s a lot of suspense to be had in NOT knowing that something is coming. Though, there’s also a lot of foreshadowing in places you might not expect. One of the Death Rattles in the epigraphs for TWoK foreshadows Kaladin and Shallan emerging from the depths of the Shattered Plains, which doesn’t happen until WoR.
ETA: I took my own advice and was browsing through the Arcanum and came across this WoB which seemed oddly relevant:
Grant Willis
Are there any clues or easter eggs in Roshar/the cosmere that have not been discovered yet?
Brandon Sanderson
Yeah, but they’re not ones that you should be able to discover. They’ll just be things that you’ll able to look back at. We embed some things here and there in the art, like the lastclap that was in foreshadowed in the margins of one of the art pieces in the first book, with someone catching a Shardblade. For instance, a lot of the little circles for characters at the start of the stories represent things that will happen much later in the series, but most of them are intentionally zoomed in of what the shot would be so that you can’t tell right now, because these are not things that you’re supposed to be able to figure out. Most things that I intended for you to figure out, you did, and some that I didn’t intend you to figure out, you also did. So people can feel very proud of that. Yes, there are a bunch of easter eggs, there are a ton of them, but there is no way you can figure out what they are.
@Zero_G :
The Stormfather always says “These Words …” Note the capital letter, it’s a proper noun. The Oaths are called “The Immortal Words.” He says the same thing to Lopen later in this book, when Lopen speaks the Second Oath of the Windrunners.
@Scáth:
The red eyes were caused by Nergaoul, though. The Thrill doesn’t “forgive” anyone. It isn’t sapient enough. Notice that when Dalinar captures Nergaoul, the red eyes go out.
@AndrewHB, Brandon has said that the Beyond (where the dead go, after first appearing in the Cognitive Realm) is not the Spiritual Realm, and that he has no plans to ever explain it. (Now, time for @Scáth to show me how I misinterpreted Brandon’s statement.) :-)
@Gepeto
You have said several times that you are bothered by not seeing her gain the skills she shows here. Jasnah is supposed to be mysterious until the “back five” novels. You’re complaining because we don’t see a training montage? The whole point of this stuff is to surprise and intrigue us–the story is not over yet! If you explain everything when you’re only 3/10 of the way through a story, it diminishes the tension for the entire remainder.
Kaladin held his own against one of the Unmade and multiple Fused, while tethered to one spot and having to constantly defend Dalinar, and you’re complaining because he didn’t immediately triumph? Szeth couldn’t beat the Fused he faced while armed with Nightblood and assisted by another Radiant–and Szeth actually does refer to extensive combat training he had while in Shinovar.
Um, no. He kills one with a single gesture, actually (by throwing Maya at it). He’s only somewhat effective against a Thunderclast, but in one of Dalinar’s visions we see that full Radiants needed help against Thunderclasts, even before the Last Desolation.
Really? Because it gets explained in the Stormlight Archive (and in The Emperor’s Soul, and in Mistborn … Brandon actually does a good job of covering this particular point–my own almost-complaint is that it gets repetitive for those like me who have read all the novels).
@48: Jasnah’s past is mysterious and will not get expand on until the back five. The skill sets she displays within the narrative is however not mysterious. A character can’t go from being an interior princess dressed in nice clothes who spends all her time in libraries to a badass fighter without the readers getting at least the glimmer of a background. As I mentioned, had she merely said, in her own viewpoints, she had secretly trained herself for battle, it would have been enough. I never said we should have seen a training montage, but I do feel the character displays abilities far beyond what we would expect given the background we got for her. For instance, had Shallan suddenly started to display philosophical knowledge superior to the one Jasnah’s got, it wouldn’t work out unless the narrative mentions where she got this knowledge.
Jasnah just can’t suddenly go from one archetype to the other without a link between the two. This link does not need hundreds of pages of exposure completed with a flashback sequence, but he should have been mentioned at least once. One sentence. One comment. Not full chapters.
Jasnah displayed fighting capacities that surpassed Kaladin in the Taylenah battle because she readily killed Fused whereas we have seen Kaladin needing to make an effort to achieve the same. Let’s go back to Kholinar when it wasn’t so easy for Kaladin to kill on Fused. Of all the Radiants, Jasnah has come across as the most battle proficient and this is not exactly where I would have expected her character to be.
Adolin gets a spear rammed into his stomach the first time he fought a Fused because he was too slow to adjust. In Taylenah, he only kills one because the Fused was busy trying to kill someone else. The Fused was not fighting him directly, hence he was able to kill it from the back. I disagree he was “matched” against the Thunderclast: the creature would have killed him had Renarin not gotten there. Heck, the wounds he had taken would have probably eventually killed him had Renarin not healed him. Getting almost killed without securing victory is not what I consider “holding his own”. Also, if Radiants of old needed help to fight the Thunderclast, this did not come through in OB since Renarin single-handily defeats one in about 2 minutes.
On three-realms: the concept has always seemed alien and bizarre to me. I did know what they were when I read OB because I had read other books and I had read explanations on the fandom, but if I hadn’t done this, I don’t think the explanation offered in Oathbringer would have been enough.
Ah and for @26, if it makes you feel better, a lot of people on my parents facebook group is panicking right now because of the pandemic. They definitely are not taking it in with humor and laughter, some of them have lost their income, others fear they will lose theirs: not everyone’s job is secure. For most people, it is a source of anxiety.
It made me reflect on how fantasy rarely seems to depict those feelings: heroes are always greater than nature, solid, never prone to panic… Reality is most people are not heroic and even heroic people can feel panic. Perhaps recent real-life events will have Brandon be inspired to use them as a thematic in future books! That would be fun to read :-)
@41 birgit
I agree regarding Jasnah. I think at this point people can either like or dislike the scene however they wish. Personally I really enjoyed it and cannot wait to see more!
@42 KiManiak
I agree with everything you said regarding the perpendicularity but at this point, I guess some are going to enjoy it and some are not. I personally do not feel the level of knowledge affects the enjoyment of these scenes. I think it was a beautiful moment of Dalinar overcoming his past, Kaladin letting someone save him for a change, Renarin finding courage, Jasnah reconnecting with her nephew and everyone coming together to put Hatred back in its place. I think, like you, the information about the perpendicularity only added depth and interest, rather than take anything away.
Sorry about transportation! So here are the things we know, and theorize regarding transportation:
1. We know Oathgates employ the surge of transportation
2. We know elsecallers transfer from the physical to the cognitive and back via creating a mini perpendicularity
3. Brandon is trying to decide whether or not to have the oathgates function via the spiritual realm. It is not canon yet
4. Brandon (rather vaguely) has responded that Jasnah throwing the Sadeas soldier was not a “force push” effect of transportation (hinting it could possibly be in fact plate), but it could be theorized about using transportation to move someone.
5. It is till vague whether or not a radiant can use transportation to directly teleport (I personally think so, but not explicitly confirmed)
6. we know elsecallers have worldhopped in the past, despite the limitations of spren needing to stay on planet. so there is a way around for that
I think that is everything off the top of my head so far. I will add if I think of more, and if you have any questions, please feel free to ask.
@44 AndrewHB
So we know a “spiritual corpse” remains in the spiritual realm for a very long time. We know that the cognitive self disappears shortly after dying (time dependent on how invested the person was in life). And we know the physical body obviously decays after death. Now whether the self that fades away from the cognitive realm goes to a “beyond”, or returns to investiture to be reborn, or just dissipates and that is that, is meant to remain a question so anyone and everyone can have their personal beliefs in the cosmere and still be valid. Theist, Agnostic, an Atheist. All fair and equal. Brandon has confirmed it will never be definitively answered.
@45 AndrewHB
There is a theory that when Amaram went to travel to Narak, to then transfer to Urithiru, Ialai said he was caught in the Everstorm. The theory posits that that was when Odium contacted him.
@47 LazerWulf
Very well said.
@48 Carl
So you are right, the red eyes are from the Thrill, but all the troops, including Amaram were possessed by the void spren hanging out in the cognitive realm. So I was not referring to Nergaoul. I was referring to the spren, and also notice how Turash says “you have learned to inhabit humans?”. I have included the scene below:
Oathbringer page 1092
Ahead of them on the battlefield, the human ranks slumped, their banner wavering. A man in glittering Shardplate, sitting upon a white horse led them. Deep within his helm, something started glowing red.
The dark spren flew toward the men, finding welcoming bodies and willing flesh. The red mist made them lust, made their minds open. And the spren, then, bonded to the men, slipping into those open souls
“Master, you have learned to inhabit humans?” Turash said to Subservience
“Spren have always been able to bond with them, Turash” Odium said “It merely requires the the right mindset and the right environment”
@Gepeto: I actually think it’s realistic and societally necessary for some people to retain a sense of humor amid horror and share its products. And Sanderson’s characters are in some ways more realistic than most. Many of them have accurately-portrayed mental illnesses, which they seldom conveniently lose when the plot gets intense, constantly fighting and negotiating with their own minds as well as their external foes. So the fact that some of them can endure all of that and still snark and laugh is inspiring. I just struggle to do it myself right now, and don’t always appreciate others’ attempts. And I’m annoyed in particular by the ubiquitous derision toward people urgently seeking to acquire the things we’re all being constantly ordered to use. I have toilet paper. I was too late to get disposable gloves or sanitation wipes.
@52: For some people, not for all people: if there is one thing the current crisis has taught, it was most people will not behave rationally when faced with a crisis. The whole toilet paper debacle is a good example: there are no rational reasons to stockpile toilet paper, but people do it because it is reassuring, it gives them a sense of empowerment over a powerless situation.
I think snarking is a good way to relieve the pressure, but too much of it can get people to react negatively. Still, it is always good to portray various reactions. The context of the pandemic might still give Brandon some… ideas. If I were a writer, I’d sure think it is currently providing ample material for fiction… think about how this plague in the Purelake could develop in a main narrative…
For the rest, I am a rebel. I have no disposable gloves nor sanitation wipes. I love to live dangerously, but seriously, the whole frenzy took me by surprise. I never even considered I should be buying those things, then they were gone.
@AeronaGreenjoy:
(Warning: topic drift)
I haven’t seen that derision, nor heard. The derision I’ve seen (as Gepeto hints at) is for people who decide they need all the toilet paper, or 30 packages of chicken to freeze, or all the bottled water in the store. It’s both irrational and antisocial. In another forum, I just saw a first-hand account of an elderly woman punching a younger woman in the face to get the last package of Charmin. That’s panic, not a rational decision.
@54: Especially since on the morrow, the stores had filled their shelves with more toilet paper and issued warnings stating: “There will be no toilet paper shortage, it is being manufactured locally, it isn’t impacted. We have plenty of stocks, stop emptying the shelves!”. And yes, in time of crisis, even a mild crisis as this one (let’s be honest, humanity is not facing a mass extinction event, we are facing a virus which has touched only a very small minority of people which we will shortly find a cure for), people will act irrationally and antisocially. Fear, anxiety will make people act selfishly.
I will talk broadly here. This is exactly the kind of mass reaction I think is seldom portrayed in fantasy. Characters always face dire circumstances, tragedies, events which threatened people far worst than the current crisis, but I do not recall reading mass reaction similar to what we are currently seeing in fantasy fiction. For instance, people in Kholinar were incredibly mild, they weren’t rioting, had it happen in real-life, no one would have been able to walk freely in town without being assaulted. In real-life a mere virus had people fight over toilet paper… what would they do if we were to face food shortage and an invasion?
Gepeto@46 re: “hater” – a few quick thoughts:
-The “issue” is also that labels/terms/phrases, etc can be interpreted in all kinds of ways, depending upon the individual doing the interpreting. Fortunately, you are not responsible (within reason, anyway) for how readers choose to interpret what you say/write; you’re only responsible for what you actually say/write.
-The “blunt examples” you supplied are not really relevant (or, even close to being so) in this case as absolutely nothing mirroring those words nor their tone were stated in my post @18; but if/when they are relevant I have faith that you’ll respond extensively to the offender(s) and educate them appropriately.
-Labels/terms/phrases can generate negative responses but, in and of itself that isn’t necessarily a bad thing, as long as everyone follows the rules of whichever forum they are in. If everyone agreed all of the time, that would be a boring discussion forum! (And on a personal note, if all a commenter can use to discredit someone is label them -using a neutral term- as their whole argument without any additional evidence or analysis , then I find that attempt to be fairly weak and not really worthy of serious consideration.)
-Again, certain colloquial labels/terms/phrases that are used throughout fandom often have an understood meaning and are in and of themselves rather benign, which I don’t think is news to anyone. It’s the context and usage that can add something additional to them. I don’t see why my initial comment required a discussion re: fandom verbiage that would require a back and forth to this degree, but if you felt it was necessary, then, cool.
Scath@51 – Thanks for the list on Transportation. I’m familiar with most of this already, but I think I may have missed the WoB for your #4. Does he just comment that Transportation wasn’t used on all 3 soldiers, or just that first one?
I still find it noteworthy that “the full force of Jasnah’s shove had transferred to (the second soldier).” I think there’s something extra there, but I guess we’ll find out when Transportation is discussed in more detail, hopefully in RoW.
@56: This is a tricky discussion that can lead to bad places. None of us are responsible for how our words are being interpreted, all of us are responsible for the words we choose to write: I agree with this statement.
My issues come from attempts to put more words into the mouth of those having said them than obviously intended. This is why I dislike the use of the terms “lover/hater” because I feel it labels readers into categories. In other words, if I am to be labeled as an “Adolin lover”, “a Jasnah hate”, and a “Dalinar hater”, all the arguments I try to bring forward in good faith becomes nullified. I can’t argue over how other characters react to Dalinar because I am a hater and thus programmed to hate Dalinar: those who voice this out really do not understand the thought process at work here.
Of course, I understand this was not your personal intent and my intervention was meant to ask for those terms to be used in a careful manner.
Yes, the examples I put forward have nothing to do with your own post, my intentions were not to state they did. My intentions were instead to show how the use of words such as “hater/lover” can lead to negative discourse and needless stigmatization of readers. I understand you were not personally falling into this category, but the examples were meant to illustrate why, as an individual, I prefer not using the terms and I would prefer others not to use them as well. Of course, I cannot control nor dictates what others choose to write, so I had wish to illustrate how far the labels can go so perhaps others would think twice before using them.
Unfortunately, responding in kind is not always possible. Educating others is not always working and, in most cases, it would backfire against me. It usually does. Others can call me all names they want, but I am unallowed to return the favor more often than not since it was my unpopular opinion which started the debate the first time around. I am usually unallowed to respond properly, not because I lack words or am unable to fend for myself (real-life me fends for myself quite well, no one steps on my feet twice) more because rules do not allow me to. Hence, if someone is rude towards me, I have to take a very deep breath, I go have a run, and I think of the most polite response (or take a long break away) I can think of because the alternative would always make me come through as the aggressor. And it would disrupt the friendly discussion which goes against my every intention.
Yes, discrediting any reader based on their personal preferences is a lame tactic which is why I try not to use it even if there were cases where it would have been really easy to do so. I love we all disagree and I wish for all opinions to be able to be voiced down so long as they follow the rules of the forum, so long as they are being polite. I think there is value in all opinions, even the ones I disliked nor disagrees with: they do bring elements to the table and they make me reflect on my own opinions.
Sometimes, they make me change my mind.
This being said, I cannot control which labels others choose to use, I can only convey why I dislike them and why I feel they might provide more harm than good. Of course, you and others are allowed to disagree.
@Gepeto. I do not think it is hording to stockpile on toilet paper or soap or food stuff. I am not sure what country you live in. I am in the USA and in a state where all schools and non-essential retail businesses have been shut down for the next two weeks and in dining at restaurants and bars. The state I am in also has urged business to allow its employees to work remotely where that is possible.
If you have a family of 5 (3 growing children; and two parents, each of whom are able to work from home), then you have 5 people together for all day. Five people in a house for at least 2 weeks will consume more household goods than were they out of the house Monday – Friday during the day. Likewise, more food will be consumed while the entire family is stuck in the house.
Further, it is possible for the the virus to affect the supply chain of the household goods and food. If too many workers at a factory that makes toilet paper have been exposed to the virus, are symptomatic or whatever the case may be, then that can affect the supply.
KiManiak @56. I would love for RoW to delve further into the Transportation Surge. As of the end of OB, Elsecaller is my favorite KR Order. Yet, I think we will have to wait for a such exposition in books 6-10. IIRC, Brandon has said that each book will have one character’s back story examined and also focus on one of each Order’s Surges. So far, each book has focused on the Surges associated with the Order associated with the person’s book (WoK: Kaladin and Windrunner; WoR: Shallan and Lightweaver; and OB: Dalinar and Bondsmith). Further, each of the 3 books focused on one of the two surges. In my opinion, Transportation is more associated with Elsecallers. It is the name of the Order, after all. (I do acknowledge, we have seen a lot more transformation than transportation.)
I believe WoR will focus on Willshaper. IMO, the past scenes will focus on Eshonai and the current scenes focus on Venli. It is because of this I also believe we will see more Cohesion than Transportation. Cohesion is easier to perform and hide than Transportation.
Just my 2 cents.
Thanks for reading my musings.
AndrewHB
aka the musespren
@56 KiManiak
So what I was referring to was this WoB. The person seems to be taking the scene you are referring to, and extrapolating that that might be what happened later when we see Jasnah seemingly throw a soldier as images fade around her.
Questioner
So, Jasnah has the same shape appear around her as when she first appears out of Shadesmar at the end of that– At the end of the second book, when she appears out of Shadesmar, she has the same shape appear around her as she does in the last battle, but we never see her do anything (this is about Transportation) And we saw people flying away beforehand. Can you– Does Transportation allow you to push other people. Similar to Lashings, but kinda differently. I’m just wondering if you can use it on other people, basically?
Brandon Sanderson
You can, but it’s not what you’re thinking.
Oathbringer Chicago signing (Nov. 21, 2017)
@AndrewHB, there’s a difference between buying a supply of something (20 rolls of toilet paper for a family) and hoarding (buying 10 20-packs, then going to the next store and buying even more). And yes, people are doing the latter, and yes, it’s stupid. That’s a product that tends to be locally manufactured, and will only be in short supply if civilization totally collapses.
@58: I do not live in the US, but over here, it is pretty much the same: almost everything has been closed even the company’s gym. Sigh. Groceries and essential stores are still open and are definitely not running out of toilet paper nor food. Delivery is still on. The government is not worried over supplying the stores nor running into any shortage, they are more worried in the number of cases to increase too fast for the health-care system to cope. This is the real hurdle.
I am worried for you guys, in the US though. I am worried for all the people working in the places which have closed. I am worried for the kids who are losing out their last school trimester. But I am not worried over getting food nor supply: I went to the store this week-end, the frenzy has died down, all the shelves were full, including the toilet paper one.
@60: This is what I meant: irrational behavior. When people are afraid and anxious, they will act irrationally. Toilet paper is just the one thing everyone got worried over even if it probably is one of the most unessential good you can get (you can totally live without toilet paper, not fun, but no one dies from toilet paper shortage).
Funny how people are worried the toilet paper industry might get sick, but how about the real essential goods, such as the power plants? That’s when civilization starts to collapse, when you fail to operate the power plants. Luckily, over here, they isolated everyone working in plants, they cut down all contact from the exterior. They’ll be fine. No Covid19 out there. No way for it to get there.
Still, to wrap around the discussion back to SA, this is exactly the kind of irrational behavior I think was perhaps missing out of the Kholinar arc. If people can act crazy over a virus, what would they do if their grain stock was really getting lower and there was no way to get more? They’d riot. The streets would no longer be safe. We saw none of that in Kholinar, worst, we saw Kaladin/Shallan/Adolin casually going to a tavern… The Covid brings an all new flavor to this narrative: it was way too mild.
It’s strange that everyone worries about toilet paper in multiple countries. In the local supermarket toilet paper and pasta were the first things sold out. The cashier said on Friday she doesn’t understand why toilet paper. Today many shelves were empty. Bus drivers are separated from the passengers, schools are closed, an apprentice in our office has to stay at home for two weeks because he went to Austria last week. It’s not the virus that is the problem but people’s reactions.
@Gepeto:
It is totally fair to feel however you do about whatever you read; individuals have personal preferences and art is highly subjective.
However, the same is also true of authors. Each author has their own style, their own preferences, and their own specific plans on what to write. There is a limited amount of space in a book (even the ones as long as Sanderson writes!).
Some of the themes and specific instances you are looking for may have been left out for word count reasons; others may simply be themes that Sanderson is not interested in dealing with in this series or this book (Sanderson has depicted mob behavior/panic before, in Kholinar with the effects of the Unmade, and in Elantris, too).They may also be outside the scope of a character’s pov. I personally think the three Stormlight books so far have had sufficient disasters/violence, battles, etc., with more to come. And I feel like the stories are mostly focused on individual stories or on world events etc. through a more personal lens, meaning that we see less general and more specific reactions.
In @61, you mention that the streets are mostly empty. I would argue that this makes sense, as the Fused had attacked people in the city before. That threat might be enough to keep people mostly off the streets.
On another note, I was definitely confused by Odium’s “we.” I still don’t know quite how to interpret it.
@30: Wow! Interesting.
Scáth @40:
A very interesting theory about Amaram being possessed by a Fused soul, but wouldn’t it have become a little tight between it, Yelig-nar and Amaram himself in there? Because unlike with the singer Fused, Amaram’s idenity was still there and even clearly dominant.
I’d dearly like to know what this “bonding” of Sadeas soldiers by the “spren of the dead” even consisted of, because they were clearly driven completely crazy by the Thrill without gaining any new personalities or abilities. So, either Odium still needs to work out a few kinks from this mechanism, or the souls needed more time to adjust, or the result just isn’t that effective, which may explain why he didn’t bother in the past.
Concerning Transportation, I very much hope that Sanderson isn’t going to wait for Jasnah’s book – likely the last of the series! – to explore it. The first 5 novels are supposed to deal with the history of the Radiants and I believe that we will have a good handle on all of their abilities by the end of this arc.
Gepeto @49:
I suspect that neither of us will budge on the matter, but for me the scenes of Jasnah fighting and killing robbers, after letting the first of them swing at her in WoK, and her appearance as a rugged wanderer who had survived a couple of months in Shadesmar without stormlight at the end of WoR sufficiently established her credentials as somebody who was more than just a well-dressed scholarly princess. And, of course, once she had realised that she was becoming a Radiant and what it likely meant, logic, which is the defining trait of her character, dictated that she should prepare for a Desolation – and she had 6 or so years to do exactly that. Doesn’t mean that her skills as a pure fighter are comparable to those of Adolin/Kaladin/Dalinar/professional soldier etc, but she does have certain proficiency and of course having stormlight, a living shardblade and a well-earned skill at ranged soulcasting greatly enhanced her performance on the battlefield, as did closeness of the 3 Realms. IIRC Adolin never had a chance to go against a Fused with the Maya-blade – he certainly wouldn’t have been gutted in Shadesmar, if he had _her_ as his weapon, instead of a knife!
Generally, I didn’t find the battle of Thaylenah exactly plausible, despite Sanderson trying to provide justifications for how and why a handful of Radiants, most of them newbs, triumphed over a whole veteran army supported by the Fused and the thunderclasts. Notably, the flying Fused were fighting very stupidly, always trying to close for a melee fight instead of lashing objects at their enemies. Maybe he should have just let Szeth destroy all the opposition with Nightblood, because Warbreaker had already established that Nightblood is more than capable of something like that!
@55, 61:
This I agree with, though. People certainly should have been panicking once the parshmen transformed and Alethkar started to fall dark. In fact, the most unbelievable part of OB for me was how chill everybody was in Urithiru in Parts 1 and 2, when IRL frightening rumors would have been circulating, people would have been worried about their loved ones and properties back home and screaming for Dalinar and Ehlokar, as well the Highprinces to do something.
I am not so convinced about Kholinar – historically, populations under siege often endured great hardships for long periods of time without rioting, as long as they were more afraid of the outside enemy, than of deprivations inside. IMHO, that was exactly what we were seeing – and the siege only continued for a couple of weeks, IIRC. It would have certainly gotten much worse in another week or so.
@63: I think we all have personal preference towards the elements we wish the narrative to focus on. I will admit I really love to read about poignant disastrous catastrophes! I find them fascinating. After WoR, I was hoping OB would be it, with the Everstorm and the Voidbringers, but this isn’t quite where Brandon took the series.
@64: I might budge once future books provide additional insights. I merely find the insights we have gotten so far to be insufficient to sway my opinion. It isn’t said the future narrative will not settle some of the issues I have here in the same manner the OB narrative settled the issues I once had with Renarin’s character.
I agree we never saw Adolin fight one on one, with Maya, a Fused. While this would sure be interesting to read, I am not willing to give Adolin the victory right away: Fused are faster, have surges, can occasionally fly, and are notoriously hard to kill. Adolin might be a good fighter, but it is hard to picture him being able to counter them without the advantages of being a Radiant. He would never be able, for instance, to move as fast as they, to hit as strong as they nor to compensate for their surges. We also have a WoB which states Adolin does consistently try to take down foes who are too powerful for him: hence him going after creatures does not mean he is able to win, it merely means the character is impulsive and is over-estimating his capacities.
I agree with you the Taylenah battle was too easy to win. Shallan with her illusions almost single-handily defeated the zombie army. Renarin took down the Thunderclast in mere minutes. The victory was easy: they had a handful of Radiants, many untrained for battle, and they won a decisive victory. Sure, there was the matter of Odium not wanting to commit his full strike force, but if he wanted to destroy the burgeoning Radiants, now was the time to do it.
On mob effect and panic: I don’t recall reading it in other books as well, so it isn’t just Stormlight here which falls short on depicting it. I agree population under siege can be well-behaved if they have strong leadership and proper discipline, but given the fact Kholinar was basically left unruled, had no clear leader, no military authority besides an outsider, I found the population behaved very mildly. If anything, the current crisis reinforces my perception the mob should have been more vocal and their fear should have been more palpable. If anything, the Kaladin/Adolin/Shallan casual strolling in the city and casual spending time in taverns should not have been possible: that part has always felt off to me.
I also agree the whole “peaceful acclimatisation” into Urithiru was perhaps a little bit far-fetched. We could also add how everyone seems to take in stride and happiness the return of the Radiants: haven’t they been taught to hate/fear them? I understand Brandon probably didn’t want to dig into those details, but the overall portrayal could have used more nuance, IMHO.
@61 and 64
I agree that we did see a reasonable-enough reaction in Kholinar. They had had a riot just before the Everstorm which led to a huge crackdown. People were fighting for food in different ways, though the guards were still keeping order at select points. Finally, the spren cult definitely was flourishing due to the fear people were feeling. Now, should the refugees and populace have expressed more fear and anger and less shock and despair, maybe. I wouldn’t be surprised if this does get shown in other books.
@64 Isilel
Yelig-nar is housed within the gemstone that Amaram swallows. The souls that possessed the humans was not complete possession. The original owners of the bodies were not forced to vacate as we see when fused take over the parsh bodies. Further, the humans did not gain any abilities from the bonding. The humans were opened to influence via the Thrill, and the souls that took up residence just kept the humans on task. But the humans were still themselves. They could speak, and reason. Turash refers to this as Odium inhabiting the humans. So that is why I view Amaram tapping his chest, is referring to the soul inhabiting him, connected to Odium.
I believe the mechanism worked exactly as intended. I do not believe the intention was for the souls to full inhabit the bodies. I see it much like the thunderclast. They can set up residence, and leans towards certain actions, and then leave when it suits them.
Regarding transportation, perhaps this will assuage your fears. We know via WoB that each order tends to learn one surge first, over the other, and seems to have greater proficiency in that surge. This was mainly done for the meta reason of not overwhelming the reader with so many powers so fast. There are the occasional exceptions (for instance Kaladin focused on gravitation first after seeing Szeth use it), and a lightweaver could learn greater proficiency in transformation if they focused on it, but the tried and true expectation with the radiant orders is shown below:
Windrunner: Adhesion first, Gravitation second
Skybreaker: Gravitation first, Division second
Dustbringer: Division first, Abrasion second
Edgedancer: Abrasion first, Progression second
Truthwatcher: Progression first, Illumination second
Lightweaver: Illumination first, Transformation second
Elsecaller: Transformation first, Transportation second
Willshaper: Transportation first, Cohesion second
Stoneward: Cohesion first, Tension second
Bondsmith: Tension first, Adhesion second
So going on that, Venli the Willshaper should be showing us transportation.
@Gepeto, I actually work for a power company. Our operators are doing fine.
We do know that Hrdalm, a Plate Shardbearer, beat a Fused single-handedly. Later in this book we see him pop back up, with one hand bloody from where he punched one to death. And as I mentioned before, Adolin takes out a flying Fused with Maya with one throw. Shardblades can definitely “kill” Fused. (I’m assuming they go back to Braize, though we don’t know that–maybe they go Beyond.)
@birgit, I must disagree. The virus is a problem. Not to minimize people’s reactions also being a problem, but the thousands of dead people, and their families, would disagree with you that they don’t matter. Note that our estimates of the dead are most certainly super-low, because places with less-than-first-world health care systems have no idea who died of Covid-19, vs. “just died,” and we know the Chinese at least are lying through their teeth and misclassified many deaths as non-coronavirus to minimize their statistics.
@Isilel:
The Radiants did not win the battle of Thaylenah by fighting the enemy army, with just the 7 of them. They barely held on long enough for Dalinar to capture the Thrill, with the help of two armies. Also, we have no evidence that the flying Fused can use Gravitation that way. As you point out, we never saw them do it. So far, we have not seen a Fused who is as flexible in their Surgebinding as a Radiant.
@68: Glad to hear it!
We also know Adolin fought Szeth thrice, once with his Plate, and thrice he lost without even coming close to winning. I doubt Fused would be easier to defeat in a one one one fight. I am aware Hrdalm punches one away, but that Fused clearly wasn’t up to Szeth’s caliber. Or it was taken by surprise.
I fail to see why Adolin specifically should suddenly be able to hold his own against surgebinders when the narrative has told us be to be the best duelist really does not mean much when opposing surgebinders. He might get lucky, like Moash, like potentially Hrdalm, but he would never win in a real one on one fight. Facts are, even with Plate and Blade, Adolin was completely outclassed against Szeth.
@68 Carl
So the fused can in fact lash someone, but it seems to be difficult for them, or might use up more than they are comfortable with. We see that via Moash. He has seen them lash, but also commented how they tend not to, and would carry him physically instead of lashing him usually.
edit: To clarify for accuracy. Kaladin mentions being lashed by the Fused earlier in Kholinar. Moash then mentions that the fused oddly always cart him around by carrying him, instead of just lashing him.
It looks like the general fused cannot heal as fast, or surge bind as strongly as radiants. Their strength seems to come in numbers, resources over the long haul (radiants lose stormlight faster), and rebirth. So from what we have seen, shardbearers can definitely fight them and hold them off. Which is what they did at the battle of Thaylenah. Holding off the forces till reinforcements came in. Now there is still what powers later fused can bring to the fore as Odium begins to bring more of his forces bonding parsh, but as we have seen in Dalinar’s visions, normal people are very much capable of fighting. I think also the fact that the voidspren went through the trouble of finding Eshonai’s plate and blade, as well as attacked Graves and Moash to get their plates and blades is sign enough that such tools are effective in the war, considering the enemy is actively trying to deprive Team Honor from access to them.
Scáth @67:
But that’s exactly my problem – the souls _didn’t_ manage to keep the Thrilled Sadeas soldiers on-task, with the exception of Amaram and possibly the soldiers who tried to capture Fen and Navani. If the “bonded” soldiers had been kept on task, then Shallan’s tricks wouldn’t have deterred them for as long as they did. Instead, they were all just completely mad with bloodlust and didn’t follow any discernible plan. So, what was even the point of the souls “bonding” with them? Of course, the Fused themselves were clearly afraid of entering the area covered by the Thrill, so maybe they are very susceptible to it?
As to Yelig-nar, not sure if his need for a gem housing means that he didn’t have to occupy some part of Amaram.
Concerning the surges – it is not just Kaladin who was atypical in that he took quicker to Gravitation instead of Adhesion, Dalinar also primarily used Adhesion instead of Tension. So, among the nascent Radiants with a spren of their own, preferred use of one surge early on isn’t rigidly predetermined. With the squires, I suspect that only the Windrunner ones can access both surges of their Order, while all the rest only get the one “preferred” surge.
Somebody earlier in the discussion suggested that we are more likely to see Cohesion from Venli, as use of Transportation, particularly the fumbling learning of the ropes, will be difficult to hide from the Fused, and I am inclined to agree. Cohesion might also fit better thematically. I still hope that we’ll see enough of Transportation, Cohesion, Tension and Division by the end of book 5 to know how they generally work and what is possible with them.
Carl @68:
The Fused definitely don’t die the final death when killed by a shardblade – they wouldn’t have been such a problem if they did. Nor do they go back to Braize when killed on Roshar anymore, but to the Everstorm.
I don’t find the Radiants holding out as long as they did entirely plausible, nor the fact that the Fused didn’t try to swarm Dalinar even after he trapped the Thrill, but YMMV. Sanderson did try to justify it, but it didn’t quite work for me.
Gepeto @69:
But Szeth extensively used Lashings in his fights with Adolin – lashing both items and people, while Adolin’s plate was damaged and he himself worn out from the battle during that last fight. It is because Adolin already knows what to expect when fighting somebody with Gravitation, as well as his excellence as a swordsman, that I presume that he could hold his own with Maya-blade against a single flying Fused and be quite effective against more in a fully functional plate. And frankly, so far Szeth of WoK/WoR comes across as a much more competent fighter than the flying Fused, which is why I pointed out that they were fighting stupidly.
But maybe Scáth @70 is right and it is difficult for the flying Fused to lash other people and items, which makes them much less formidable than the past Szeth. In this case, dead shards are even more of an advantage against them. Of course, as we have seen, they are fully aware of this fact, and I expect that Odium’s forces will get their hands on forgotten stashes of dead shards in RoW. Possibly with Nale’s help. As of the end of OB they have at least 3 full sets of shards and Jezrien’s honorblade.
@71: There is a very old WoB which states we wouldn’t find out about tension nor cohesion until the back 5. I always thought it was odd given the Bondsmith and the Willshaper book were in the front five. I do not know if this WoB has become obsolete or if it still applies, but I thought it was good to keep it in mind.
On Adolin and Szeth: On his first fight with Szeth, he was lashed to a ceiling and rendered pretty much useless. In his second encounter, he had just defeated Eshonai. His Plate was damaged but not so much so it wouldn’t be useful. He didn’t seem tired enough for it to matter in the next fight. We did not get to read how the fight actually unraveled, but in the next scene, we see Szeth throwing Adolin in Dalinar’s tent. His Plate had been destroyed. Then he fights Szeth, without his Plate, but admits it is near impossible to anticipate what Szeth would do next. The fact he readily heals from wounds also made him near impossible to kill.
I just do not see clear indications he would be able to counter surgebinding on a future encounter: surgebinders just move too fast, they can heal, and they have super-human strength. In his Plate, Adolin would last longer, but eventually, he’d either tire or he’ll take too many hits and lose the Plate. This isn’t about not being a good fighter, it is more about no one being able to move fast enough for those foes. I thus believe, without a Nahel Bond, Adolin will remain outclassed by the Fused and most of Odium’s minions.
This being said, we would have to see what Brandon has in store for us in RoW. Surely Adolin will have a few fights, so we’ll get to evaluate how regular men can realistically fare against the Fused. My personal take is: not very well except on rare occasions or seer luck, but let’s RAFO.
@71 Isilel
So as not to have to white out most of my post, there is mistborn spoilers in the first paragraph. Readers beware
It worked to me like the koloss. A misting or mistborn of sufficient strength can use a soothing or rioting to exert control over a koloss. Usually they try to get the koloss in a frenzy in order to increase its emotions to make it easier to take control over. While under their control, they can give it basic commands. The koloss will then carry out those commands until given another overriding command. So for instance when left standing and not actively controlled, they were attacked by catapults and killed. I believe this worked the same. The thrill increased their emotions opening them up. The souls then exerted control. They were then given a command to attack which they carried out to the best of their ability. They are still blood thirsty, but they are capable of personal thought. Just like the koloss.
The gemhousing seemed to work as a gemheart, giving Yelig-nar a focus in which to be channeled through Amaram. So that wouldn’t conflict with the soul possessing him to me.
So it is confirmed Orders tend to learn one surge over another. I will post the WoB below. As I said, it started for meta reasons, but became a basic rule of thumb. There are exceptions, but 9 times out of 10, this is how it works. Kaladin saw Szeth’s use of gravitation so focused on learning that surge first, when normally it would be adhesion. Dalinar had Kaladin as an example in learning adhesion, so overtly learned that one first, though he had theoretically used tension much earlier (the chasmfiend).
Overlord Jebus
So I’ve noticed a pattern in the way that the Radiants learn their surges. They seem to learn their anti-clockwise surge before their clockwise surge?
Brandon Sanderson
They do.
Overlord Jebus
Excellent, everyone thought I was a crazy person!
Brandon Sanderson
They do tend to– Now, I’m gonna give you some behind the sausage stuff on that. That is partially for writing expediency reasons.
Overlord Jebus
How do you mean?
Brandon Sanderson
I designed that partially because I didn’t want to overwhelm people with too many magic systems at once so I came up with a little bit of a pattern so that I could have a little bit of an in-world reason why we were slowing that down. It’s not a hard fast rule, it’s something that I’ve kept to in order to not overwhelm readers so it’s more of form following function than the other way around.
Oathbringer London signing (Nov. 28, 2017)
Interesting theory on the squires. Personally I do not think that is the case, but given that we have only seen Vathah use illumination and not soulcasting, we just don’t know yet.
Personally I still think we will see primarily transportation from Venli, but I guess all we can really do is RAFO!
You are totally entitled to feel the scene did not work for you. The information provided does seem plausible to me, and it did work for me. To each there own.
Plate does enhance the user’s strength beyond that of what stormlight does for a radiant. Plate also enhances the user’s speed. Stormlight does increase speed, and strength to a certain point for a Radiant, but Kaladin was surprised that Rock was able to pull the string on the shardbow without shardplate despite Rock having stormlight as a Squire of Kaladin. That is why a lot of people have theories regarding Rock’s horneater ancestry. I do agree that Odium’s forces are going to try and snatch up as many blades and plate as they can, to prevent Team Honor from using a very important tool in warfare (plate and blade)
@Gepeto
Szeth with an Honorblade was enormously more powerful and capable than a Fused. Don’t forget, he spent years training back when he worked for the Stone Shamans. You may be exaggerating how powerful a Fused seems to be in the narrative.
Hrdalm kills the other Fused, by himself, off-screen (because he isn’t a main character). Shardbearers can fight Fused, the narrative just doesn’t let you argue that point. Also, see below.
@Isilel
If there are tens of thousands of them, and a Shardblade can kill a few of them per Desolation? Remember, according to Venli’s narrative most of the Fused, including the most powerful and skilled, are still on Braize and haven’t yet come back to Roshar.
I read it as their returning to Braize until the Everstorm passes over the correct Singer volunteer and they can be reincarnated, but I could be wrong.