After all that craziness last week, we’re not done with the Avalanche of Part Three. We’ve still got to get our heroes out of the battle! Well, Adolin and Shallan have to get them out, anyway. We’ll also check in with the folks back in Urithiru (remember them? Dalinar, Navani, Taravangian? Those folks?) and see what they know. It’s not pretty, my friends.
Reminder: we’ll potentially be discussing spoilers for the entire novel in each reread. This week, there are Warbreaker spoilers in the Cosmere Connections unit. But if you haven’t read ALL of Oathbringer, best to wait to join us until you’re done.
Chapter Recap
WHO: Adolin, Shallan; Dalinar
WHERE: Kholinar palace; Urithiru
WHEN: 1174.2.3.3
Adolin, Skar, and Drehy bring Kaladin and the remaining loyal soldiers back to the Oathgate, where Shallan worries over the probability that the gate is booby-trapped. On Adolin’s orders, she activates it anyway. Meanwhile, back in Urithiru, Dalinar struggles to cope with his recently-recovered memories of Rathalas as they wait for the Oathgate to activate, or to receive news from Kholinar. When news comes, it’s bad; the city has fallen, and there’s no word about the team he sent.
Truth, Love, and Defiance
Chapter 85
Title: Grieve Later
It was one of the first battlefield lessons his father had taught him.
Grieve later.
A: Well, that’s just painful. The thought of “lessons learned from his father” is particularly difficult right now, given the last Dalinar flashback; the obvious callback to the death of Sureblood is even more so.
Herald: Paliah
Paliah is the Scholar, patron of Truthwatchers, with the divine attributes of Learned and Giving.
A: I currently have no idea why she’s here; hopefully the discussion will enlighten me.
…and it didn’t. The only things I have to go on are the epigraph from a Truthwatcher, and the potential connection between Sja-anat and Glys. That’s pretty tenuous, but it’s all I’ve got.
Icon: Shardbearer
Adolin’s Shardbearer icon tells us we’re getting his view of the events, but he shares the chapter with Shallan.
Epigraph:
Don’t tell anyone. I can’t say it. I must whisper. I foresaw this.
–From drawer 30-20, a particularly small emerald.
A: Saw what? This is the final—and it’s called out as very small—emerald in a Truthwatcher’s series discussing the plan to deny the parsh their Voidlight by trapping Ba-Ado-Mishram. I have to wonder: Was this added later? Is “it” the result of the plan they made—the complete incapacitation of the parsh? Come to think of it… did trapping BAM destroy the existing bonds, or only make it so they couldn’t form new bonds? Leave them their existing bonds, but with no Voidlight to fuel any special abilities? And is the writer fearful because of the foreseeing, or because they don’t want to admit that they ignored the forewarning, or… what?
Chapter 86
Title: That Others May Stand
The burden for the blood of those wronged must rest somewhere. I am the sacrifice. We, Dalinar Kholin, are the sacrifices. Society offers us up to trudge through dirty water so others may be clean.” He closed his eyes. “Someone has to fall, that others may stand.”
A: In the following paragraph, Dalinar notes that he’s often thought something similar, but Taravangian’s version sounds so hopeless. It occurs to me that “fall” means something very different to these two men. One thinks of falling in battle, striving with all his might in the hope of winning the cause even at the cost of his own life. The other thinks of moral decisions, compromising his values in the hope of saving lives. Somehow, I have more respect for one than the other.
Heralds: Chana and Nale
Chana is the Guard, patron of Dustbringers, with the divine attributes of Brave and Obedient. Nale is the Judge, patron of Skybreakers, with the divine attributes of Just and Confident.
A: I’m clueless about Chana’s presence, but I think Nale is here because of the conversation between Dalinar and Taravangian about the hard decisions kings and generals have to make. Chana… maybe the courage of the team? I dunno.
Icon: Kholin Glyphpair
So now we’re back in Dalinar’s head, present day. It’s not a happy place.
Epigraph:
My spren claims that recording this will be good for me, so here I go. Everyone says I will swear the Fourth Ideal soon, and in so doing, earn my armor. I simply don’t think that I can. Am I not supposed to want to help people?
—From drawer 10-12, sapphire
A: Well, that was deliberate placement! Right after the chapter where Kaladin freezes up because he can’t help everyone, and right before an entire Part where Kaladin stews over the fourth Ideal and his inability to say it, we get an ancient Windrunner stewing over whether or not he can/will take that same step. There are only two things we can say for certain: Windrunners get their Shardplate with the Fourth Ideal, and it has something to do with not helping someone. Beyond that, it’s all speculation.
L: After the last two ideals being all about helping others, this one must be particularly hard—not quite a reversal of the previous ones, I don’t believe that, but… a realization about the ones you can’t save. There’s been a lot of theorizing about what this might be, and I can’t wait to eventually find out.
Stories & Songs
“Brightness Davar told me to clear everyone else out,” the highmarshal said. “Something’s wrong with the device.”
A: Not good. Not good at all…
“Adolin,” Shallan whispered, “the heart was a trick. I didn’t chase it off—it left on purpose. … They let us come here because the Oathgate is trapped.”
A: Uh-oh.
“Sja- anat. The Taker of Secrets. She says that if we engage the device, we’ll be caught in a disaster.”
Adolin took a deep breath.
“Do it anyway,” he said.
A: I mean, what choice do you have? You take a chance on your escape route being trapped, for which you have only the word of an Unmade, or you stay where you are and get slaughtered. Well, I suppose they could have tried Windrunnering out like the devil was on their tails… but that would mean unequivocally leaving everyone else to the tender mercies of whatever Fused weren’t busy chasing you down, and without a highstorm for power, it’s probably not a valid option anyway.
L: Better to take a chance on the fate you’re uncertain of than succumb to the fate you know.
Shallan looked away from the pleading figure in the mirror. The others couldn’t see her— she’d confirmed this with Azure already.
A: Lightweaver effect, or Knight Radiant effect? We’ll never know; Kaladin was too dazed to look.
I will show you, Sja-anat said. I will try. My promise is not strong, for I cannot know. But I will try.
“Try what?” Shallan asked.
Try not to kill you.
A: Well, that’s not ominous or anything.
Relationships & Romances
“The team you sent,” Teshav continued, “has apparently failed, Brightlord.” She swallowed. “The remnants of the Wall Guard have been captured and imprisoned. The city has fallen. There is no word on the king, Prince Adolin, or the Radiants. Brightlord … the message cuts off there.”
A: No word on your son or your nephew… which, come to think of it, applies equally to Navani.
L: The family members must be the hardest blow for sure, but this was Dalinar’s home for a time just as much as it was Adolin’s. On top of everything else he’s going through right now, now he’s got to face the fact that all of those people he knew, interacted with even in small ways (servants, guards, even street vendors or what have you) are doomed, or dead already. Not good news to get when you’re already on the verge of a breakdown…
A: Mental fail on my part. When thinking about Dalinar, I looked at Kholinar solely as a strategic issue, with the team being his personal connection. Short-sighted of me, because you’re right—he spent a lot more of his life there than Adolin did.
Bruised & Broken
Kaladin stumbled along. Though he didn’t appear wounded, he stared with a glazed- over look. Those were the eyes of a man who bore the kinds of wounds you couldn’t fix with bandages.
A: Our poor broken Windrunner is all broken again.
L: Poor Kaladin. Sweetest of cinnamon rolls, he just wants everybody to be happy.
Kaladin followed, dazed. After what he’s been through, Adolin thought, I wouldn’t have expected that anything could faze him. Not even Elhokar’s…
A: Adolin doesn’t know that it wasn’t (only) Elhokar’s death that fazed Kaladin, of course. As we discussed at great length last week, it was about his inability to protect all his friends from all his other friends. Now I don’t remember; does Kaladin eventually talk to Adolin—or anyone—about it? Just Syl?
Buy the Book
Fate of the Fallen
L: I don’t remember either. Guess we’ll refresh our memories together eventually. This shaking of the very foundation of everything that he believes has to be so hard. It’s not just that his friends were fighting each other, or the betrayal, or the death… It’s the realization that every enemy he’s ever fought has had friends, family, loved ones. They’ve all been human (even when they’re parsh). Do they deserve to die for trying to regain what they’ve lost? For defending their own loved ones? It’s a hard question that not every soldier has the courage to face.
A: Also, it occurs to me that Adolin doesn’t know it was Moash that killed Elhokar. Why has no one ever asked what happened to the bridgeman who got the Shards he won in the four-on-one “duel.” Was Moash not viewed as one of the bridgemen any more? Did everyone assume he was killed at Narak? I guess that would be a fair assumption for them to make, but they still should have asked questions, it seems. A full set of Shards is no small thing.
L: It’s possible that he knows and we just never saw this conversation happen “on-screen.”
I think… I think the Voidbringers intentionally left Kaladin and his men alone after only a brief fight.
A: If this is true, the specific losses hurt even more. Had Kaladin not been paralyzed by the unexpected appearance of Sah and Khen, he could probably have used his abilities to keep his friends apart until the attackers pulled back; he might even have been able to protect Elhokar and bring him back too. Of course, it would have been dreadfully Gary-Stu of him, and the narrative would have been flat… and of course, then they’d have had a bunch more people trailing along in Shadesmar, and all sorts of complications from that.
L: I think Shallan is referring to when they were attacked earlier, during the initial breaking-into the palace, not the big battle that happened inside…
They thought he was sick. … But if he stopped standing up straight, if he let it bow him down, he worried the memories would crush him.
The memories of what he’d done at the Rift.
The crying voices of children, begging for mercy.
A: It was a shock to jump from the events of Kholinar to Urithiru. The last time we saw anyone but the Kholinar Infiltration Unit in “real” time was back in Chapter 65, when Dalinar visited Azir and suddenly regained a new batch of memories just as he arrived back in Urithiru. Since then, we saw him in four flashbacks–Jah Keved, the road to Rathalas, and the two chapters at Rathalas. To suddenly be back in his head in the present day… well, I’ll admit I had to look back and remind myself.
L: This week is full of tough self-realizations. Kaladin, Dalinar, even Adolin realizing that his home has fallen…
A: Now we get to be in Dalinar’s head as he wrestles with what happened at the Rift. As hard as we were on Dalinar in the discussions a few weeks ago, we’ve got nothing on Dalinar himself.
Dalinar closed his mouth, eyes ahead, and stared at the expanse. At attention, like a soldier. That was how he would wait. Even though he’d never really been a soldier. He’d commanded men, ordered recruits to stand in line, inspected ranks. But he himself… he’d skipped all of that. He’d waged war in a bloodthirsty riot, not a careful formation.
A: Ummm… he’s not wrong. It’s not even a surprise to him; his memories of the early campaigns are untouched. But it must really stink to have a perception that you outgrew the young berserker and became a highly competent general, only to be slapped in the face with the missing middle of the story where you did worse things than your young self ever imagined.
Problem was, he’d given in to a kind of fancy, one every one told about him. They said the Blackthorn had been a terror on the battlefield, but still honest. Dalinar Kholin, he would fight you fair, they said.
Evi’s cries, and the tears of murdered children, spoke the truth.
A: It’s got to be a horrible, rude awakening, to suddenly discover you’re not who you think you are at all.
And I had the gall to condemn Amaram for killing one squad of men to gain a Shardblade. Dalinar had burned an entire city for less. Thousands upon thousands of people.
A: There’s a lot more in this vein, as Dalinar worries over it. He wishes the memories hadn’t come back yet, and castigates himself for being a coward in asking the Nightwatcher for relief. (Hah. Little you know, dude.)
L: He has a point, and you have to wonder about what Sadeas thought about all of this as he saw it happening. He was uniquely positioned to have seen the entirety of Dalinar’s arc. I wonder if he thought Dalinar was a hypocrite, or if he realized that Dalinar had no memories of the terrible things he had done… and how either of those things would have affected Sadeas’s perception of him.
A: I agree. Now we see the attitudes of the other highprinces (and people like Amaram) in a different light, and makes Sadeas and Ialai much less sneeringly evil. They’re still evil, but their interactions with Dalinar make more sense now.
Diagrams & Dastardly Designs
“How does one live after making a decision like that? Particularly if you eventually discover you made the wrong choice?”
“This is the sacrifice, isn’t it?” Taravangian said softly. “Someone must bear the responsibility. Someone must be dragged down by it, ruined by it. Someone must stain their soul so others may live.”
“But you’re a good king, Taravangian. You didn’t murder your way to your throne.”really
A: Oh, the irony! No, Dalinar, Taravangian didn’t murder his way to anything… he merely bought a man’s honor and made him do the murdering. Stained soul, indeed.
L: I’d argue that Szeth was just the gun and Taravangian was the one pulling the trigger, making him very much a murderer indeed.
A: I don’t disagree. Not that I’ll exactly let Szeth off the hook, but Taravangian is definitely a murderer many times over.
“Almighty above,” Taravangian whispered, grey eyes reflecting the glow of the heating fabrial. “I am so, so sorry, Dalinar.”
A: I have to think it’s intentional, that Taravangian’s grey eyes are reflecting the glow of the “bright red ruby” in the heating fabrial…
L: Yikes. I didn’t think of that. It would make his eyes look red. Creepy.
Squires & Sidekicks
Adolin pulled Kaladin out along the Sunwalk while Skar and Drehy guarded their retreat, encouraging the last of the Wall Guard to run—or limp—to safety.
A: Well, it’s nice to know that not all of the Wall Guard was slaughtered right away. I wonder how many of them survived the next hour. Also, this visual:
Skar and Drehy dropped down to the platform, guarding the way onto the Sunwalk, to prevent the Queen’s Guard or parshmen from following.
Mindful Motivations
A: I love being in Adolin’s head. For all his lack of self-confidence in certain regards (mostly relating to Dalinar and Shallan!), when he’s not thinking about himself he’s a pretty savvy guy. (And really, despite appearances, IMO he doesn’t spend that much time thinking about himself.) The way he instantly evaluates Kaladin’s condition speaks of a commander who recognizes all the forms of battle trauma, because he’s always aware of his men. In this chapter, he faces all the hard truths of losing the battle for his home, and he immediately turns to doing what can be done for the living. He’ll grieve for the dead later, when there’s time.
Adolin took it all in, and admitted the terrible truth. His city was lost.
“All forces, hold the platform,” he heard himself saying. “But pass the word. I’m going to take us to Urithiru.”
::sniffle::
“Sir!” a soldier said. “Civilians are crowding the base of the platform, trying to get up the steps.”
“Let them!” Adolin shouted. “Get as many people up here as you can.”
…
“The city has fallen. Transfer the entire platform, not just the control building. We need to get as many people as we can to safety.”
A: Lyndsey, this reminds me of your comments a couple of weeks ago, about Adolin’s final conversation with his tailor and his habitual care for the “little people” of the world. Here it is again: He knows his city is lost, so what does he do? He tries to get as many people as possible on the Oathgate platform, so that when they activate the Gate they’ll at least take some of his people to Urithiru in a swap for the army.
“The king—”
“The king is dead. The queen has joined the enemy.”
A: That’s… blunt. It must be excruciatingly painful to say that.
L: I agree with all of this. This is one of the reasons why Adolin climbed so high in my regard, to the point where he and Kaladin are tied for my favorite characters. As far as protagonists go, he is almost always “active”—and his actions are usually moral and kind. (Usually. We’ll leave the Sadeas debate alone, as that’s a horse we’ve beaten to death.) Unfortunately, I have a bad, bad feeling that these very attributes are going to be what dooms him, from a story-telling perspective.
A: As I understand it, his arc is not settled yet… but that might argue in favor of your last statement. Depending on how things play out around him, he could go either direction.
Cosmere Connections
“My men on the wall!” Azure said.
“They’re dead or routed,” Adolin said, gritting his teeth. “I don’t like it any more than you do.” …
“… I’m ordering our retreat, Azure.” Adolin locked gazes with the woman. “We gain nothing by dying here.”
She drew her lips to a line, but didn’t argue further.
A: I can’t help thinking back to Vivenna’s plot arc in Warbreaker. She started out as a duty-bound stickler of a princess who knew her role to the letter, believed it was critical to the survival of her people, and wouldn’t even consider abandoning it. After realizing that not only was her sister better at the role, but she herself would have failed to save her people at all, she pretty much walked away from all her responsibilities. Now, here, it seems that perhaps she’s found a balance that her younger self was incapable of achieving. In her early days, she was mostly concerned with her own self-perception as The Sacrificial Princess Who Would Single-Handedly Keep the Wicked Hallandren In Their Place. Now, after who-knows-what adventures, she’s gained a good bit of maturity; leadership and responsibility seem natural to her as they never did before.
A Scrupulous Study of Spren
“Why did you bond me?” Dalinar whispered to the Stormfather. “Shouldn’t you have picked a man who was just?”
Just? Justice is what you brought to those people.
“That was not justice. That was a massacre.”
The Stormfather rumbled. I have burned and broken cities myself. I can see… yes, I see a difference now. I see pain now. I did not see it before the bond.
A: It’s so fun to watch the Stormfather developing new perspectives.
L: And another parallel here with what Kaladin’s going through, too. Kaladin didn’t let himself see the humanity of his enemy before now. The Stormfather couldn’t see the humanity of the “lesser beings” he destroyed, because he was simply too alien to understand it. Now that he’s been bonded, he’s beginning to see.
Word had come from Kholinar via spanreed, one that somehow still worked. An assault on the palace, an attempt to reach the Oathgate.
…
The spanreed was writing. Navani gasped, safehand to her lips. Teshav turned pale, and May Aladar sat back in her seat, looking sick.
The spanreed cut off abruptly and dropped to the page, rolling as it landed.
A: So it looks like Elhokar was right: For whatever reason, the enemy was too preoccupied to bother with the spanreed for the first message. By the time the second one came through, it looks like they were paying attention again.
Next week is Independence Day here in the US of A, so per tradition, there will be no post. The following week, however, should make up for it: We’ll be closing out Part Three with Chapter 87, and then doing a bit of a recap of unanswered/answered questions and ongoing themes for the book so far. If you have anything you’d like to see us address, drop it in the comments below and we’ll do our best to get to it!
Alice is looking forward to a week in Montana—Glacier Park, Flathead Lake, lots of R&R… (she hopes)
Lyndsey was so excited to read Sanderson’s recent update on Stormlight 4. If you’re an aspiring author, a cosplayer, or just like geeky content, follow her work on Facebook or her website.
And here is the fall, and back to Daliniar. I know when we were discussing the Rift chapters, we had a lot of discussion on whether or not Dalinar desereved redemption. This thought processs, where he’s clearly guilty, hearing the screams of his victims, not just evi, but the victims, is similar to Szeth, who we think deserve redemption because of his guilt. Heck, him telling the Stormfather that it was a massacre and he doesn’t even try to justify it, like say Amaran would, shows that he IS worthy of redemption.
For Adolin, i know some people think that him having the “Grieve later” philosophy isn’t healthy or a weak character moment, but seeing how we just had a discussion that Kal should or shouldn’t have frozen, and that he needs to focus on the mission, here we have the opposite of that. and while we don’t see him grieve in this particular book for this instance, we do have the scene of where he was grieving for Sureblood. he has done it before, it’s most likely a coping mechanism, so he doesn’t freeze.
My instinct is also that Paliah is related to Sja-Anat through the Truthwatchers. Not much time to pay right now, so I’ll be back later.
As a reader who really loves Adolin, I constantly worry about his “grief later” inner motto as I worry it equates to “never grief”. While I agree we did see Adolin grieve Sureblood, my impressions are he just never really allows himself the time to grief, preferring busying himself, working hard until the grief gets buried so deep it stops hurting.
And I worry, someday, he will be faced with one grief too many and it will all pour out, every single hardship he suppressed and hid under an impressive amount of “duty” and “responsibility” will just explode out of him.
So I worry. It was sad to watch Adolin witness his city failing, his civilians being killed, his cousin being killed and he cannot allow himself time to catch his breath. And it made me angry at Kaladin, once again, for not powering it through, for contrasting so heavily with duty-bound Adolin who never grief by grieving too much. Why can’t Adolin grief too?
Speaking of which, Lyndsey, can you expend on what why you feel Adolin being “moral and kind” might be what doomed him? I am curious to hear your thoughts.
Steven @1- I totally agree on “grieve later.” Yes, he’ll need to grieve, but there’s also an element of “the one you can save.” We don’t ever get a “wallowing in grief” scene from him, but I’m okay with that, as long as I can believe he gets to grieve eventually. It might not be healthy to suppress it too long, but its healthier than being distracted in battle.
ETA: (I’m moving my ETA to a new comment, because I waited too long to post.)
@3 Adolin can greive, the two just have entirely different circumstances. Kaladin’s main problem has always been that he has never grown callosues. that he can never accept the loss. that has been around since book 1, where even his father said that he will eventually need to accept death as is, that they can’t save everyone. Kal has NEVER accepted that, and that has finally boiled over where he froze. Adolin, on the other hand, has lost friends in various campaigns, and he has been trained since a child. It even says here that his grief later philosphy comes from training, which most soliders probably get that training, no matter who their father is. Adolin knows death happens, and he’s accepted it. heck, though it’s never stated, maybe its a lesson from his mother as well, if they all beileve they are with the One, why not that death happens, they return to the One? so grieveing is handled differently. we know Adolin is affectoniate and caring, but he’s in a situation right now. last week, you were saying that Kal freezing was a bad thing, but now you want Adolin to freeze too out of grief in the middle of battle? of course not.
Don’t forget Taravangian’s systematic murder of the homeless and transients in his city so he can record their dying words.
Reading the Dalinar chapter and thinking about the soldiers is kind of exhausting. At this point they have been waiting for four hours. At any moment they could be plunged into the middle of a battle, so they have to stay ready for a fight the whole time. Imagining what would have happened if they didn’t get the second message. In a couple of hours, if they haven’t been already, they would have to set up a rotation to rest the troops. Then when they eventually stand down everyone will know that the infiltration team failed and the city fallen.
@6: Steve, I never implied I wanted Adolin to freeze out in battle: grief can manifest itself in various ways. I merely expressed concern over rarely seeing him taking the time to grief those he has lost. I noticed how his attitude, towards hardships, leans towards never processing them, ignoring them and keeping on focusing on the what he can accomplish instead. This is highlighted in how he deals with Sadeas’s death: he doesn’t. He just keeps himself busy and never wastes moments to explore what it meant, never fully, never as much as he should have.
Sure, on the surface, it looks like a super healthy behavior, especially when made to contrast with Kaladin who refuses to accept death and, well life, but I still worry Adolin has been pilling on too much over the years. Let’s not forget he is earnest, he wants to please, he wants his father to be proud of him, he did his best to apply every lesson taught to the letter. Hence, I have no doubt believing Adolin has indeed taken up his father to his words: grieve later, if you have time. He never stopped to realize Dalinar himself isn’t always obeying his own rule and does grief, later, a lot.
So while yes, whenever locked into a battle, grief later sure is the right behavior to adopt providing the later comes. Unfortunately for Adolin, everything seems to take precedent over grieving such as “taking care of Kaladin”, “making sure everyone is fine”, “focusing on the next task even if it isn’t as urgent”. There is no *later* for Adolin as he always finds “something else more important than himself” to do.
In other words, Adolin may appear as if he had the super uber healthy attitude in life, I still worry. I worry because everything is about balance and Adolin isn’t, IMHO, balanced. There is a time to keep a cold head and to shove feelings down, but there also is a time to allow them to float back. I am unsure Adolin gives himself *enough* time for the later and, typically, individuals having the same outcome on life tend to crack down bad, eventually.
Edit:
There is also something very important to state here, Adolin does believe it is normal and natural for Kaladin to go catatonic in front of Elhokar’s death, but he doesn’t believe this applies to him. In other words, within Adolin’s mind, it is OK for others to have a hardship, to freeze and to crumble, but it is not OK for him.
Him, he powers through anything. So not once does he consider an event he believes rightfully knocked Kaladin down should perhaps impact him too.
It is exactly this kind of double inner standards which make me worry over Adolin.
I started to update my earlier comment, but… I’ll make it a new one.
Gepeto @3 and 7 – I would worry a lot more about Adolin grieving if we were in his head all the time, like we are with Kaladin, Shallan, or Dalinar. Sometimes I think it’s fair to assume that he does his grieving, we just don’t see it on screen. For example: The Gallant scene in Oathbringer was added after the beta. It was suggested that it would give other characters a (false) understanding of why Adolin was morose; if we see him grieving for Sureblood, we can believe that Dalinar and Shallan would put his mood down to that grief, even though he really was stewing over killing Sadeas. (Also, we wanted to see a little closure for Sureblood!) The end result is that we get to see him grieving for Sureblood – not that he wouldn’t have done the grieving off-screen, but it served a story purpose in that case for us to see it. While it’s certainly possible that Sanderson will choose to give Adolin emotional issues due to bottling up his grief, I think it’s also entirely possible that he’ll simply say that Adolin does his grieving elsewhere and we don’t have to be involved in it. We’ll probably talk more about this in upcoming months, though; iirc, we’ll be in his head quite a bit as we wander through Shadesmar in Part Four.
Simpol @6 – I know, those poor soldiers! I thought about that too (though I didn’t address it); that would be exhausting, standing there waiting for the Oathgate to dump you into battle with little or no warning. Especially as the hours wore on, you’re standing there waiting. And it’s not like you’re waiting for a bugle to tell you to form up or something; when the Oathgate activates, BOOM. There you are, in the middle of who-knows-what melee, so you have to be ready. Ugh.
@8: See, you are assuming Adolin *is* grieving because we do not spend a lot of time in his head whereas I am concerned over not *seeing* him grief much except for this brief scene with Gallant. As a reader, given all I know about Adolin, given his inner discourse, I am assuming the opposite: he doesn’t grieve. Even worst, he believes it is normal for others to grief, to go catatonic, to crumble, but he doesn’t believe it would be normal for *him*. Adolin believes it is OK for others to be emotionally affected by events, but he doesn’t believe it is OK for him to have emotions.
And that’s where I am bothered with his whole supposedly healthy inner motto.
On one side, there is Adolin, proud champion of the good guys with his shining armor, always smiling, never stumbling nor seeming as if he felt a hardship, never having emotions except if they serve other people purposes and on the other side, there is… everyone else: normal human beings facing hardships, sometimes rising up to the occasion, other times crashing down, but all in all having very realistic reactions to events, both positive and negative. Little wonder some readers now call Adolin a Gary-Stu!
Brandon did not write a Gary-Stu, he wrote a character who believes he is a Gary-Stu and acts the part… Hence, I worry but granted Brandon may not pick up this particular ball. If it were another character, I’d say he most definitely would, but Adolin? I just can’t make predictions with Adolin: predicting anything with Adolin’s character is the road towards being disappointed.
On the side note: We were supposed to read in other characters felt Adolin was morose within Part 1? I never got that in the narrative, seems to me other characters thought Adolin was just being strong and steady, as usual. I don’t recall reading any character being worried whatsoever over Adolin’s mood.
@7 – I don’t think Adolin will have an issue with grief as his reason for fighting is supporting/following the orders of his father. Fighting for Dalinar, comes even before fighting for Kholinar, so I don’t think the lose of his home country will effect him that badly.
The only times we have seen Adolin struggle emotionally is when he thought Shallan was dead (because he blamed himself for not protecting her and because of love), when he killed Sadeas (because it was against his Father’s code), and when he has been asked to lead separate from Dalinar (as High Prince or King).
It will be interesting to see if he will have a crisis when he hears that Dalinar was to blame for his mother’s death or if Adolin has to make decisions independently of Dalinar’s goals.
I think the ending of the book was kind of rushed, as we never see any type of grieving for Elhokar from anybody.
@9 I’m 90 percent positive that Shallan noticed he was more morose than usual, especially when they discover the first murder after Sadeas. He was doing the whole, ‘this is impossible” but she chalked it up to him being upset they couldn’t find the murderer, she did notice that he was trying to be strong, but she never really picked up on the real reasoning for it.
and again, we did have a scene where he was upset, with Sureblood. it shows that he does grieve, problem is, every event after this doesn’t really have a lot of time to grieve. they are lost in a strange land, with one of their members in a serious funk, one member a stranger who is hiding more than she is saying, and shallan being….Shallan. they need a leader, and Adolin is the best fit for that, to be strong. And when they do get a chance to relax, he gets the bombshell of being made high king, where he does show relunctance, and finaly spoke up against his father. There is no time to grieve, in the narrative.
Alice: The connection between Paliah, on the one-hand, and Sja-anat & Glys, on the other hand, was my thought too (re Herald on the Chapter 85 arch).
What Taravangian did not tell Dalinar during there conversation in Chapter 86 was that the some one who had to fall was Dalinar so that the remnants of the remnant (to use WoT language) could survive. I doubt that Dalianr would accept his and countless of millions’ deaths so that a small portion of humanity can survive this current Desolation.
IMO, I think Kaladin’s Fourth Ideal will be something like “It is ok if I failed to protect somebody as long as I tried my best.”
I believe that even if there were other Lightweavers on the Oathgate platform, they would not have seen Sja-anat in the mirror. For some reason, I think Sja-anat can appear to only those who she wants to appear (using the mirror trick) and that is why only Shallan can see her.
Alice and Lyndsey. Has Brandon provided a WoB that Kharat is Brother Lhan?
Thanks for reading my musings.
AndrewHB
aka the musespren
@AndrewHB: I would bet money that if LIft were present, her weird “always partly in the Cognitive Realm” ability would let her see Sja-Anat.
Something that I find intriguing and odd – the Fused capturing the remnants of the Wall Guard alive and keeping them ditto. Judging by Dalinar’s vision of young Nohadon, this wasn’t their MO in the past – 9/10 of his whole people were killed in the Desolation. And it has been stated repeatedly that the Everstorm and the parsh walking out should have lead to famine. Not to mention that I have a distinct impression that the humans currently outnumber the parsh. So, if the Fused truly want to re-establish singer dominance and/or have enough food for their people, they’d need to reduce human numbers – and starting with soldiers who actively fought them and resisted the Unmade influence would have been logical. So, why this unexpected clemency?
Interesting, that Azure/Vivenna couldn’t “see” Sja-Anat, when Vasher let us know in his PoV in WoR that he could always detect Syl when he saw Kaladin. I bet that he would have sensed an Unmade! How much Breath could Vivenna have in her person, as opposed to stored in her clothes, before Rosharans, who are not as sensitive as Naltians, would notice something odd? Hoid had the Second Heightening at least, with nobody being the wiser…
Also, Vivenna is very protective of her men here – I wonder if her getting stuck in the city of honorspren in part 4 isn’t going to lead to a new and beautiful friendship… It would be particularly funny if she ends up bonding Captain Notum…
Speaking of grieving and worrying, I feel that this not being shown is the problem with a number of characters – the Kholins didn’t mourn Jasnah in a believable way when she was supposed to be dead, Dalinar and Navani aren’t going to be worried enough about their missing sons during part 4 of OB, nor are they going to grieve over Ehlokar’s death after the battle of Thaylenah
@10: Actually, Adolin refers to Kholinar as his home on multiple occasions and shows genuine concern for its faith. In fact, when they had their first meeting, back in Urithiru, he was the sole one to express real concern towards their “home”. Hence, I wouldn’t say Adolin is only here on Dalinar’s behalf nor that he solely fights for his father’s benefit.
What Adolin does though is trying to be Dalinar, and finding himself lacking, refusing to see worth in himself if he can’t be exactly as Dalinar wants him to me. Surely, this will be a source of conflict. I hope.
@11: We saw Navani grief, briefly, but I will admit I was surprised by Dalinar’s lack of on-screen grief.
@12: Kaladin has the time to grief. Adolin just doesn’t take it. The team would have given him space, but he never asks for it. That’s why I worry: he never gives himself personal time, he never considers how he feels is important and no one is sure going to do this for him. They will all assume Adolin is forever strong and steady, they won’t think perhaps he should be taking a break. Maybe he doesn’t need one, but the reason of my worry is Adolin will not ask for it, will not take it and no one is really paying him enough attention to see whether he needs one or not.
@15: We see some of Navani’s grief, but granted Dalinar never mourn his “lost son” nor his nephew. Even worst, he didn’t even talked nor expressed concerned of his “returned”, but injured son. Granted, readers are going to argue he was concerned, but “everything else” was more important and here again, I must worry over Adolin never being important enough to be worried about. Even by himself.
Didn’t Navani and Adolin mourn Elhokar together at the end battle? Sure, it was like five minutes, but at least someone did…
@17: Yeah, she did. That’s what I meant when I said we saw “some of it”. It didn’t seem much though.
@16 Dalinar probaply didn’t show grief the same exact reason why adolin doesn’t. Grieve later. the only reason why he shows grief after rathalas was because of the guilt that consumed him. I don’t think Brandon can show every single time someone dies and grieving, because that consumes too much time with the narrative. look at Navani’s painting of the glyph in Sadeas’ camp. Navani obviously cares, as does Renarin and Adolin, but just from a narrative prespeticive, he can’t keep hopping prespectives just to show them upset for 20 pages, the book is large enough as it is.
By the way, this section of the story shows Adolin’s natural leadership. One could argue about his being a good military officer, but he directs everyone from Elhokar to the various guardsmen instinctively, unhesitatingly, and competently.
I believe “grieve later” is the only survivable strategy during an active battle. If you stop to grieve or even think about the person who has died beside you, you are likely to be the next death.
There has forever been a dehumanisation of “the enemy” when people are fighting. Look at all the war propaganda through the ages. You do everything you can to make your populace and your soldiers not think of the enemy as being human just like you. The enemy is given derogatory nicknames names and all sorts of horrible atrocities are blamed on them, true or not.
I keep wondering about the fused themselves. Is the only real difference between them and the bonded spren is the fused remove the personality/essence of whom they bond with while the spren are sort of a sidekick. The unmade seem to be a type of spren, or maybe former spren but maybe they were originally fused??
Gepeto @9 – Yes, I’m assuming that Adolin is grieving, because it’s a normal human thing to do. I’m assuming Sanderson doesn’t feel the need to show us his grieving process, because frequently, Adolin’s POVs are used for giving us another view of things involving other people. Sure, it’s possible that Sanderson has a reason for him to resist grieving for Elhokar; the point of the Gallant episode was to let us know that he does grieve, but he waits until a time he feels is appropriate. Having grieved the loss of a sister, both parents, a baby, and a mom-in-law, I know that grief takes many forms in different people; I’m okay with Adolin’s feeling that there is a better place and time than “here and now” for him to reflect on the loss and deal with his emotions.
FWIW, I wouldn’t say Adolin thinks it’s “OK” for Kaladin to go catatonic; I would say he recognizes it as something that happens, and something they really don’t have time for right now. If I had to guess at his thoughts on the subject, it would be an assumption that Kaladin doesn’t have adequate training to deal with battlefield loss – but he doesn’t waste time focusing on it.
So basically we’re making different assumptions about Sanderson’s handling of the character, and since he didn’t give us much to work with in this regard, we’ll have to RAFO. Neither of us can prove our position right now.
Re: the side note, it’s not made a big deal, but there are moments here and there where he seems “off” and they put it down to things that are obvious to them. I don’t recall that anyone does put it down to missing Sureblood, except Renarin’s understanding in the Gallant scene, which is about Sureblood.
Austin @11 – Remember that most people didn’t know for sure what happened to the team until they emerged from Shadesmar at Thaylen Field. That’s when the rest of the crew learned that Elhokar was dead. There is a scene, immediately after the battle, where Adolin and Navani grieve together. Other than that, putting in lots of grieving time would disrupt the flow.
Andrew @13 – I don’t think there’s a WoB about Lhan = Kharat; it’s assumed by most readers, but I don’t believe it’s “proven.”
Isilel @15 – “It would be particularly funny if she ends up bonding Captain Notum…” Oh, that would be priceless!!
When I first read Oathbringer I was under the impression that Malata was using her power on Dalinar. I assumed that she had the ability to a road people as a sort of dark mirror to what Shallan can do to build them up. I still think that might be possible.
Thrilled I can comment so early this week!
Re: Kaladin being dazed – I got to last week’s post late in my comments, but as I said over there in addition to Kaladin freezing initially, he also had become dazed and weak due to a complete depletion of Stormlight. This has happened to him before, he gets super weak and can barely move when he runs out of Stormlight right before he levels up at the Battle of the Tower. He’s lethargic and can barely move. Here, he just plops down on Oathgate floor and leans on the wall. Kaladin couldn’t have done much even if he wanted to; he was incapacitated due to lack of Stormlightand can barely move on his own until he sucks in more Stormlight in Chapter 89.
Re: Moash and his Shards– I agree that it makes no sense that neither Dalinar nor Adolin has asked what happened to Moash the Shardbearer. Especially Adolin; those Shards were a gift. Everyone knew he stayed behind to guard the king and wasn’t at the battle of Narak; maybe Kaladin gave everyone the impression that Moash died defending the king at that time. The Shards could have been “misplaced” during the ensuing chaos from the release of the Everstorm and the unexpected Highstorm.
Re: Szeth and Taravangian’s roles in the murdering – After last week’s weird assignment of accountability (once again, Moash is responsible for Elhokar’s death, not Kaladin, and that’s just plain based on fact), I hope that all can agree that both Szeth and Taravangian are both culpable for the many deaths of the monarchs. I guess some would blame the monarchs’ respective bodyguards for failing to stop those deaths as well…
Re: Adolin’s leadership skills – I believe there was a discussion a few weeks ago about Adolin’s ability to lead. I believe the segments Alice quoted demonstrate how capable a commander and leader he is. I have faith (or maybe it’s just blind hope) that he will develop into one of the true heroes of the Stormlight Archive. And yes, I’m biased as I am a huge Adolin fan.
@1 – Good points about both Dalinar’s redemption and Adolin’s coping abilities.
@6 – Nice point and reminder about Taravangian’s other murders. Dalinar/Taravangian will definitely be a good compare/contrast pairing for at least half of the Stormlight Archive, I imagine.
@8 – I always appreciate insight into the writing process, so thanks for sharing that the Adolin scene was added after the beta readers feedback.
@14 – Re: Lift, along those lines, I wonder how she views a number of spren in comparison to how our other characters see them. Also, I wish we could have spent more time in her head when Dalinar combined the 3 realms in the battle of Thaylenah.
Re: Adolin/Dalinar/Kaladin/any character displaying grief – It’s becoming clear that that is just not something that Brandon is spending a lot of lines/pages on. Unless its directly related to the narrative in flashback form, like Dalinar with Evi and his transgressions, Kaladin with Tien, etc). We haven’t seen a lot of onscreen grieving for Jasnah, Elhokar, Torol, Teleb, Roion, Eshonai, Demid, etc. It doesn’t appear to be something that Brandon will focus upon onscreen. It’s up to the individual reader to speculate whether characters are grieving off screen. I believe that they are. Also, what @19, @21 & @22 said.
Same with @10, I believe Adolin will grieve in a whole different way in Book 4 when he finds out what really happened between Dalinar and Evi.
However – depending on when the in-universe Oathbringer was released, and the time skip between Books 3 and 4, we may (again) not see that grieving happen on-screen.
On the grieving: This is something that Adolin has likely seen in his experiences in the Kholin army. He has been trained specifically for this and thus does not freeze in the moment. As goddess@21 states, this is a viable survival strategy in this case. As for the idea that he’ll never take the time to grieve eventually, well he’s human. These things will come out whether or not a person wants it to. He cannot repress it forever. Now whether we will see it reflected in the narrative is another story.
On dehumanizing of the enemy: in my experience this isn’t exactly necessary to fight and war although I would have to be naive to believe that it doesn’t happen. For myself the problem gets addressed in basic training. Basically one must focus on the mission and the orders given, it teaches focus. We’re no longer taught to dehumanize because that’s how war crimes happen.
@19: The “move, grief later” motto is shown repetitively within Adolin’s viewpoints, never within other characters point of view, even Dalinar’s. It is why some readers (I may be the only one on this thread, but elsewhere others have had the same discourse) believe it may be relevant to Adolin’s character as the follow-up from Elhokar’s death does seem to imply Adolin isn’t taking the time to let is all sink in, preferring to focus on Kaladin and the rest of the team instead.
@20: The discussion about Adolin’s leadership was to place him as the ultimate supreme leader of the coalition, being responsible for hundreds of thousands of men, being the rallying point of Honor’s forces. I agreed Adolin was a decent leader, but he isn’t the Leader of the Coalition nor its military forces. This is where I disagreed.
@22: If we were talking real-life, I would agree with you as different people grief in a different manner. We are however discussing the Stormlight Archive, a narrative Brandon is choosing which glimpses he wants us to see. With Adolin’s character, he did choose to show us, twice, his inner motto of “move, grief later”.
While I agree on a large chunk of Adolin’s narrative serving for the purpose to offer a third person’s perspective on either events or other characters, some chapters do focus on him, as a character. We are now entered within the short-lived portion of the book where Adolin’s viewpoints tend to focus on him as a character and, within those, Brandon chose to show us the grief inner mentality.
Given the fact Adolin isn’t getting a lot of his viewpoints focusing on him, I tend to pay specific attention to those who do. Hence, I do think it is relevant for Brandon to have planted twice Adolin within situations where he uses his motto just as I think it is relevant he hasn’t shown us him taking much time to grief, especially after Part 3.
On the side note: The only character who comments on Adolin’s emotional state is Shallan during the chapter where they find the second body. She also comments on it when they are about to meet Ialai when she notes how ill-at-ease he is at being compared to his father. Dalinar comments on his son only once within Part 1 and it is to say how his son is steady, strong and reliable.
If the intent was for the readers to note how much Adolin freaks out and how other characters blame it on him grieving for Sureblood, then I am not sure the narrative is meeting this purpose. I wouldn’t have guessed this was the intent without being told. No one indeed blames it on Sureblood, Dalinar doesn’t even notice something is off with his son.
@24: I am a big Adolin fan, but the last thing I want is to see him being shoe-horned as a “military leader” as I do believe this is a path he has been pushed on by his father, not one he chose for himself.
@27: That was my point precisely: he can’t suppress it forever. And so far I have seen more suppressing than dealing.
So short after last week! But good stuff too. Poor Kaladin, sitting in a corner. Yes, I’m sure that Adolin grieves later. We saw him with Gallant, missing Sureblood, as Alice mentioned. I’m sure he will take time to process when he has a little more leisure.
A couple other things I thought of:
was the spren of the truthwatcher from the epigraph corrupted like Glys? Was that why he was afraid to say that he’d seen it?
If only Dalinar could have noticed the evil reflecting in Taravaingian’s eyes as he watched the fabrial during their conversation. Also, the imagery of the spanreed literally falling silent stood out to me. I think it’s at this moment Dalinar really starts to want to learn to read, so he doesn’t have to wait for the news to be read to him.
Perhaps the reason for Chana as herald for chapter 86 is the army massed on the oathgate platform waiting obediently to be tossed into the middle of battle?
@defcon_clown:
That sounds to me like the exact opposite of Cultivation, which makes me think a spren that gets its power partly from her would not enable it. It’s more like Ruin’s sort of thing, really, aside from the obvious Odium.
@1 Steven Hedge
I agree on all points.
@2 soursavior
Interesting thought! I could see that.
@5 Steven Hedge
I do see a parallel with what Lirin was trying to save Kaladin from. He has seen the mental scars war can leave a person with and wanted to spare Kaladin from that. They are wounds even Lirin cannot heal. To me Kaladin’s moment has been foreshadowed and hinted at for a long time.
@6 Simpol
Good points!
@12 Steven Hedge
I would add there is the whole year time skip between book 3 and 4. I would imagine plenty of time to grieve for his loss then as everyone tries to recover from the Battle of Thaylenah
@13 AndrewHB
My only disagreement on sja-anat only appearing to those she intends is I believe it was pointed out in a prior chapter re-read, that Sja-anat was surprised to see Shallan when Shallan first saw her. So it would not have been Sja-anat’s intention for her to see her then.
@17 redgarlic68
Good point!
@19 Steven Hedge
I completely agree
@20 Carl
I agree. Adolin is well trained and well suited to leading. I think he will do a great job as a Highprince.
@23 defcon clown
Personally I do not think that is the case, but very interesting thoughts! Could very well be!
@29 Joyspren
There is a theory going around that the truthwatcher from the epigraph was the one with a corrupted glys before glys ultimately bonded to Renarin, or that his or her spren was also corrupted, or that truthwatchers in general can see the future. Personally I do not think any of the above is the case, and that the truthwatcher in question was just commenting on a situation he or she figured would happen, but cannot speak it due to the blow back. But right now all of that is all theoretical, so you could very well be right. I wish you luck with your theory!
@30 Carl
Well from what very little we know of the surge division, it does involve breaking molecular bonds, so it does sound very entropic. I agree that I do not think dustbringers would have the ability to emotionally/mentally tear someone down like how the lightweavers can build them up, but I can see the plausible rationale behind it.
No thoughts today – but I’m leaving for vacation soon and want this to stick around in my conversations :)
Just a minor note re. Taravangian, but there’s an interesting historical precedent for his philosophy of rulers as necessarily doing evil on behalf of their people.
The Roman emperors beginning with Constantine I delayed baptism until their death beds for exactly that reason. More precisely, they had a (common at the time) misconception about how baptism works and what it does, and so they deliberately held off on receiving it so that they would be free to sin in all the ways that rulers needed to (in their understanding). They would then repent and be baptised when they were about to die.
This all went away during the reign of Theodosius I, who got extremely sick and thought he was dying. After his baptism, though, he recovered and wound up being the first emperor to rule as a full-on Christian. There were ramifications almost immediately, notably his excommunication by Ambrose of Milan after the massacre at Thessalonica (and subsequent public penitence) and his establishment of Christianity as the official religion of the state (instead of simple legalization), and from that point forward the emperors ruled as Christians (at least ostensibly; many of them were not particularly worthy of the label).
The underlying philosophy behind that behavior matches well with Taravangian’s. In both cases they understood that rulers needed to be able to do the evil thing in order to promote the good of their people, the primary distinction being that the Constantinian rulers thought they had a way out in the end while Taravangian is essentially hopeless about his own moral fate (which is perhaps what makes him susceptible to Odium’s deal in the end).
@33 Porphyrogenitus
Not sure I agree that Taravangian was “susceptible” to Odium’s deal. This will come up more when we reach that chapter, but Taravangian’s “smart self” knew Odium was going to show up, and had written in such a way that “dumb self” could read it out loud to Odium. So at least from Taravangian’s perspective, he is still working against Odium. Then there is also the theory that Taravangian is a “plant of cultivation”, which is a theory I do prescribe to. Guess we will have to RAFO!
Under things I’d like to see addressed if possible would be a summary or recap of facts and theories around Roshar…things like what is the “Old Magic,” what connections there might be between the architecture of Urithru and the Wind Blades, etc.
Also, these comments of mine about the Unmade from last week (@39) probably got lost in all the discussions about Kaladin. I’d love to know if I’m missing something, especially concerning the second paragraph.
Thanks for your indulgence and have a Happy Independence Day!
Following up on additional things I’d love for you Alice/Lyndsey/Aubree to address for next week: I always appreciate the insight you give us to the beta-read process. Are there any comments, discussions, whatever that stand out for Part Three? Any stories about minor (or major) changes that Brandon may have made due to input from the beta folks (that Team Sanderson would be okay with you sharing, of course)?
Anything you three feel comfortable with sharing would be great! Thanks!
Taravangian’s mentioning the innocent man along with a murder in an alley alarmed me for a moment. The murder in the alley seems to allude to the situation that Jasnah took care of. By killing four men, the same number from the tale. Probably just Taravanian lamenting his inability to control a corrupt police force. It would be an interesting twist if Jasnah had to wrestle with that kind of mistake, though, since she ends up as queen of Alethkar.