After 2007’s Fantastic Four: Rise of the Silver Surfer disappointed mightily at the box office, 20th Century Fox found themselves going back to the drawing board. While they did so, Marvel Studios started their inexorable rise to the top of the box-office charts, and Sony found themselves rebooting Spider-Man following their own 2007 release.
Fox decided to go Sony’s route and reboot Marvel’s first family with a movie that arrived with a thud in 2015.
The number of people involved in making this film between its announcement in 2009 and its release in 2015 are legion. Akiva Goldsman was originally to produce, though he was gone by the time the movie was made, and Michael Green (Smallville, Heroes), Jeremy Slater, Ashley Edward Miller & Zack Stentz (X-Men: First Class, Thor), and Seth Grahame-Smith (author of Pride & Prejudice & Zombies and Abraham Lincoln, Vampire Hunter) were all hired to write scripts. Once Josh Trank was hired to direct, he wrote his own script, though enough of Slater’s was used to give him co-writer credit. Simon Kinberg, having already settled in as one of the guiding forces of the X-Men films at Fox, was brought in to work with Trank on a screenplay rewrite, and X-Men: First Class director Matthew Vaughn replaced Goldsman as one of the producers along with Kinberg and others.
Where both the unreleased 1994 disaster and the 2005 and 2007 theatrical releases were mostly based on the original 1960s comics, Trank decided to use the Ultimate Fantastic Four comic for inspiration.
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Null Set
Of all the Marvel characters who were reinterpreted for the “Ultimate” line in 2000, probably the one that strayed farthest from its source material was Ultimate Fantastic Four. Instead of being an older scientist, Reed Richards is a child prodigy, with Ben Grimm as his childhood friend instead of his college buddy. Richards is recruited to a scientific foundation with the father of Susan and Johnny Storm, who also both work for the foundation, along with Victor van Damme, their version of Dr. Doom. The five of them travel to another dimension, where they are infused with their familiar powers, with van Damme going bad and the other four becoming a super-team. As a precocious youth, Richards is not the leader, but simply the big brain—Susan takes on the leader role.
Trank pretty much lifted that entire setup, with one change being that both the elder Storm (given the first name Franklin, which is the name of Reed and Susan Richards’s first child in the comics) and Johnny are African-American, with Susan being adopted as an infant from Eastern Europe by Storm (and presumably his wife—there’s no mention or sign of the mother). There were, of course, idiotic racist objections to this, as if there’s anything in the Human Torch’s character that requires him to be white. If anything, I think they should’ve gone farther and made Susan black as well, as there’s no reason why Reed and Susan can’t be an interracial couple. (Not that the romance actually happens in this movie.) Besides which, the roles of Franklin and Johnny Storm were played by, respectively, Reg E. Cathey and Michael B. Jordan, two of the finest actors drawing breath. (Like the last guy to play the Human Torch, Jordan’s next Marvel role will be in a much better Marvel Cinematic Universe movie, in his case as Erik Killmonger in 2018’s Black Panther, which we should be getting to in early November.)
Miles Teller was cast as Richards, with Kate Mara as Susan, Jamie Bell as Ben Grimm, and Toby Kebbell as a role that was originally Victor Domashev in the script, but was changed during reshoots to the more familiar Victor von Doom. In addition, Tim Blake Nelson (last seen in this rewatch as Samuel Sterns in The Incredible Hulk) plays Harvey Allen, the head of the Baxter Foundation, and Homer Simpson his own self, Dan Castellanetta, plays Richards and Grimm’s grammar-school teacher Mr. Kenny.
Fox was displeased with the original cut of the movie, and recut it without Trank’s participation. There were also reshoots, in which Kebbell did not participate (since von Doom was in CGI armor at that point, it was easy enough to use someone else for the motion-capture), and for which Mara had to wear a blonde wig, as she had changed her hair for another role. (At least nobody grew a mustache that had to be CGI’d out…) Trank himself trashed the movie online (though he quickly deleted the posts in question).
The movie itself tanked like a big giant tanking thing, not even making its budget back, with a 9% approval rating on Rotten Tomatoes, and was granted three Golden Raspberry Awards, while nominated for two other Razzies. While the movie was set up for a sequel, absolutely no forward movement was made on that.
With Disney having bought Fox, it was announced at San Diego Comic-Con this year that the fabulous foursome would be made part of the Marvel Cinematic Universe. Let’s hope the fourth time really will be the charm (which would be appropriate…).
“I just want my work to make a difference”
Fantastic Four
Written by Jeremy Slater and Simon Kinberg & Josh Trank
Directed by Josh Trank
Produced by Simon Kinberg, Matthew Vaughn, Hutch Parker, Robert Kulzer, and Gregory Goodman
Original release date: August 4, 2015
The kids in Mr. Kenny’s grammar-school class are doing presentations about what they want to be when they grow up. After one kid discusses his aspirations to be the quarterback for the New York Giants, Reed Richards gets up and explains that he wants to create human teleportation. When Kenny snidely asks when he’s going to do this, Richards says he already has, in his garage.
His classmate Ben Grimm sees what Richards is writing in his notebook on the way to give his presentation. Later that night, after narrowly avoiding being beaten by his older brother at the family salvage yard, Grimm sees Richards prowling around the yard, needing a part for his teleporter. Grimm helps him carry it home, and Richards does a test run. He makes an item disappear but doesn’t bring it back because his experiment blows out the power grid in the entire town.
Seven years later, Richards and Grimm enter a working teleporter in the high school science fair. It actually works this time, but Kenny assumes it’s a magic trick and not real science. However, Dr. Franklin Storm of the Baxter Foundation, a government think-tank for brilliant young people, and his adopted daughter Susan are impressed, and recruit Richards for the foundation.
It turns out that Baxter has been trying to perfect a quantum gate that would open a gateway to another dimension, and they think that Richards’ teleporter has the key to finally cracking it.
Richards’ presence allows Storm to bring back the prodigal son: Victor von Doom, who first conceived the quantum gate, but was unable to make it work and finally quit in a huff. Storm finds him holed up in a darkened house with massive security, as von Doom is more than a little paranoid, but Storm convinces him to return now that Richards is on board.
Storm’s biological son Johnny, an engineer and mechanic, gets injured during a drag race, and Storm forces him to work for the foundation to make back the money it’ll cost to fix the car.
Richards and von Doom work on the gate, with Johnny building the equipment and Susan designing and building the environmental suits they’ll need to wear in the other dimension.
They test it by sending a chimp. It’s a success, as the capsule has gone to what looks like another world, which they dub Planet Zero. Then, to their chagrin, they are told by Harvey Allen, Storm’s boss, that they’ll be turning this over to NASA for further exploration of Planet Zero. Richards, von Doom, and Johnny are disappointed, as Storm had promised that they would get to do the exploring. As they drown their sorrows in booze, von Doom points out that nobody remembers any of the scientists who built the Apollo spaceships, but everyone knows Neil Armstrong and Buzz Aldrin. (Of course, that very example is why they never should have expected to do the exploring themselves in the first place.)
They decide to go ahead and use the gate that night. Richards drunk-calls Grimm and says that he stood by Richards’s side all throughout their childhood, and he wants his best friend by his side now for the big moment.
They put on their suits, and the four of them activate the gate. They wind up on Planet Zero where there’s a weird green energy beneath the surface. The landscape starts to shift, and von Doom falls down a chasm, seemingly to his death. The other three run back to the capsule to try to get home, but they have trouble closing the doors even as the world around them starts exploding and going crazy. A bunch of rocks go flying into Grimm’s compartment, and the window to Johnny’s shatters from fire.
Back on Earth, Susan discovers their little escapade and helps them get the capsule back through. However, there’s an explosion when it does so, and Susan is caught in it.
The four of them are taken to Area 57 at an undisclosed location. Grimm has been transformed into a creature made out of rock, Richards’ body can stretch like taffy, Susan keeps turning invisible randomly, and Johnny keeps catching fire but never being actually burned.
Richards manages to escape and, not trusting the government to cure them, runs away.
A year later, Grimm has been employed as a covert government operative (as covert as a big orange super-strong rock creature can be, anyhow), and both Johnny and Susan have been learning how to use their powers. (Susan can also create force fields, and Johnny can also fly.) Richards has been working on his own in Central America, using his powers to disguise himself from surveillance and his brains to make money to live on, er, somehow. (How he obtained a passport when he was on the run from the government is left as an exercise for the viewer.)
Susan, whose specialty is finding patterns, figures out where Richards is and they send a bunch of soldiers and also Grimm to bring him in. The soldiers don’t stand a chance—Richards has used the last year to learn how to use his powers as well—but Grimm knocks him out. Grimm is also seriously pissed at Richards, since he’s become a monster because Richards insisted on taking him on his drunken trip to Planet Zero.
They needs Richards because the government wants to go back to the other dimension, but with the prototype destroyed, and without von Doom or Richards, they haven’t been able to re-create it. Richards does it, and a group of soldiers are sent through to the other dimension, where they find von Doom, who has been fused with his environment suit, and is also wearing a cloak, er, somehow. He is taken back to Earth, but he quickly reveals that he let them do that, as he kills most of the people in Area 57—including Storm—and then goes back to Planet Zero. Richards, Grimm, Susan, and Johnny follow, since he’s created a singularity bridge between Earth and Planet Zero which will destroy Earth, and since von Doom left the four of them alive for no reason the script can be bothered to explain. (He killed Allen, Storm, and the rest of the people in Area 57 just by telekinetically blowing up their brains.)
The foursome are initially driven back by von Doom, but when they fight as a team, they’re able to defeat him, especially since von Doom has apparently forgotten that he has the ability to make their brains explode with a thought.
Earth is saved. Out of a combination of gratitude and fear, the U.S. government gives the four of them use of a secret scientific facility called “Central City.” Grimm thinks this is all fantastic, which gives Richards an idea for their team name…
“I stopped believing your bullshit a long time ago”
This movie isn’t quite as bad as its reputation. Oh, don’t get me wrong, it’s by no means good, but reading about this movie in 2015 you’d think it was the love child of Glen or Glenda and Ishtar.
It commences as a fun little movie about a bunch of smart kids. Miles Teller starts out nice as the single-minded, slightly befuddled boy genius who has no support from any of the adults in his life, but he never really gets out of that mode, even though the script kind of wants him to. (It’s left to Grimm to tell the audience that Richards is finally home at the Baxter Foundation because Teller isn’t really capable of showing it to us.)
Unfortunately, as soon as the kids take their drunken trip to Planet Zero, the movie goes into the toilet, which is kind of a problem, as that’s when the actual FF movie starts.
The biggest problem is that this is not really a Fantastic Four movie. At best, it’s an Ultimate Fantastic Four movie, but that ignores the fact that the Ultimate version of the FF was really terrible. It gave us “Victor van Damme” and “Gah Lak Tus,” a collection of drones that destroy planets, both of which are significantly less interesting than their mainline counterparts. The latter was already used to bad effect the last time the FF were in a movie, and at least we were spared renaming Marvel’s greatest super-villain after an over-the-hill kickboxer. But still, so many of the changes to the characters are bad ones. Turning Reed Richards into a kid is mind-boggling, and changing von Doom into a paranoid dudebro is just idiotic.
Worst, though, is that they make Ben Grimm boring. Seriously, there’s nothing there. The Grimm of the comics is one of Marvel’s greatest characters, a tragic hero, a spectacular wiseass, and the college buddy of Richards who is also a class-A pilot. Oh, and he was raised on the lower east side, just like his co-creator Jack Kirby.
This movie gets rid of all of that, making him Richards’ dumb-but-loyal sidekick for his science projects, and not even part of the Baxter Foundation.
It’s funny, one of the reasons for the wholesale changes to the FF’s origin is because a lot of the origin from 1961 is dumber than a box of hammers. Richards and Grimm taking the space flight made sense, but Susan’s insistence on going along just because she’s dating Richards is specious at best, and Johnny’s reasoning is literally, “And I’m taggin’ along with sis—so it’s settled.” And yet, while they gave Johnny and Susan actual reasons to be part of the science project that gives them powers, they fail to manage it with Grimm, as turning it into a capsule that travels dimensions removes the need for a pilot.
Instead, Grimm comes along because Richards wants him there, which is no better than “And I’m taggin’ along with sis—so it’s settled.”
To make matters worse, Grimm’s pathos is touched on for maybe half a second, and then ignored. Grimm and Richards have maybe two moments of Grimm’s anger at Richards for turning him into a monster—and unlike the comics version (where Grimm volunteered and knew there would be risks), it is 100% Richards’s fault, as he drunkenly dragged Grimm along on his little joyride. For that matter, we see that Grimm has a miserable home life, but nothing’s really done with that, either.
And then by the end of the movie, Richards and Grimm are back to being best friends again with no explanation or justification. In fact, Grimm, of all people, is the one to first use the adjective “fantastic,” even though Richards is no closer to finding a cure and even though he’s still a big orange rock monster.
Oh, and also a killer. It’s a blink-and-you-miss-it moment, but at one point we see a video file on Grimm’s ops for the government, which includes the notation “43 confirmed kills.” How does Grimm even feel about that? The government has turned him into a killer, and it isn’t even talked about. It also doesn’t help that Jamie Bell imbues Grimm with precisely no personality whatsoever. (His delivery of the Thing’s signature line, “It’s clobberin’ time” is delivered with all the verve of a kid reading off a cue card.)
At least the movie does right by the Storm family. Reg E. Cathey is his usual superb self as the mentor to the kids, and his love and support of his extended family of geniuses is palpable. Kate Mara’s Susan is fascinating—I really like her love of patterns—and Michael B. Jordan is having a great time as Johnny.
Still, this takes the most high-adventure of Marvel’s heroes and turns it into a dark, dank movie about stupid young people who get their powers due to being drunk and stupid, with a big dollop of government paranoia and conspiracies, and then concludes with a lifeless action sequence that makes absolutely no sense. Seriously, von Doom is established right off as being able to blow up brains with just a thought, so he should be completely unstoppable. At no point is any reason given why he doesn’t just blow up the brains of the FF like he did everyone else.
In 2017, Marvel decided to do a theatrical release of the first two episodes of their Inhumans TV series, so we’ll take a look at that next week.
Keith R.A. DeCandido is one of the author guests at Dragon Con this weekend in Atlanta. His full—and, frankly, insane—schedule, which includes several autographings, a reading, a practical self-defense workshop, and panels on the American Sci-Fi Classics, Horror, Military Sci-Fi Media, Star Trek, Urban Fantasy, Writers, and Young Adult Literature Tracks, can be found here.
I mostly remember this dud for the startling contrast between blonde-dyed Kate Mara and be-wigged Kate Mara. Like, the wig is really, really bad. I found myself going, “Original footage, new footage. Original footage, new footage…”
“If anything, I think they should’ve gone farther and made Susan black as well, as there’s no reason why Reed and Susan can’t be an interracial couple. (Not that the romance actually happens in this movie.)”
I’ve always thought that, if any member of the Fantastic Four needs to be Afroamerican that’d be Mr. Fantastic. Ben is probably the one tied the most to his ethnicity, ironically enough since most often he’s seen as a giant rock monster. But I’d argue a lot of the character’s personality comes from his white Jewish background, including how he’s pretty much supposed to be an avatar for Jack Kirby. The other three, yeah, race doesn’t matter much one way or another, but with Torch, the ‘flaming’ bad taste jokes that rise from the Afroamerican angle are probably enough of a bother for it to be best to race bender Reed.
I’m not into changing race for only one of the Storm siblings since the rest of the FF relationships are all about being family members NOT being tied by blood, and Johnny and Sue work best as the token two of the quartet who ARE indeed biologically related, adding an extra layer of irony to how the much older Ben effectively works better as Johnny’s older sibling figure, dramatically speaking.
If I had my druthers, as a compromise between old-timey space exploration FF & dimension hopping Ult. FF, I’d have the next Fantastic Four reboot involve Reed discovering the Negative Zone. Have it as an outgrowth of a competition with Victor. Initial unprotected travel to the Zone can be the trigger for their abilities, while Victor gets injured rushing his own prototype, setting him towards becoming Doom. The actual antagonist of the film is Annihilus and the dramatic tension is if they can learn enough about their new powers fast enough to escape.
They’re meant to be explorers, so drop them in a hostile environment where they run afoul of the local despot, and the best they can hope for is to get out alive & shut the door behind them. Of course, Doom stews in the resentment that Reed beat him to interdimensional travel, but works out the kinks and starts opening his own doors.
The fact that Fox continued getting the FF wrong is a source of constant annoyance to me. I can understand not capturing the essence, but whoever thought “The answer is to go darker and grittier” needs a good smack upside the head. Just read the Lee/Kirby run, or if that’s too old for you, the Waid/Wieringo run. FF needs to be exciting, crazy, colorful, and big. And I think “big” was where Fox kept letting them down, because they kept trying to play it safe with the budget. Assuming that Marvel Studios remembers that FF is Marvel Comics’ traditional flagship property, maybe they’ll provide some money to do it right.
I’ve said this before, but what I think you need for a good FF movie is right there on the cover of FF #1: The Four vs. Giant Monsters. Skip the origin, or do it in flashback; either is fine. Bring in some giant monsters to fight for an exciting Act 1 set piece. Leave the Avengers putting down monster attacks elsewhere, while Reed tries to determine the source of the problem. Team heads off to Monster Island, has to explore Subterrania (with more sets and FX), encounter the Mole Man (or equivalent), and you get your pathos with Ben Grimm’s part of that story. Reed does a Science Thing to stop Moley’s doomsday device, preferably using all the team’s powers. Moley turns out to be a Misunderstood Villain, because Marvel loves those. See? This isn’t hard. Follow-up movies: Namor, Doom, Galactus.
Man, was this movie bad. And it was frustrating because the main cast is comprised of pretty gifted actors who could’ve done right by the characters had anybody bothered to attempt to make a good movie. I don’t know if I agree that it’s not as bad as its reputation, but it certainly is one of the worst modern superhero movies. Everybody rags on the DCEU, but this one is way worse than any of those.
Unlike Keith, I think this movie really was as bad as they say it was. It’s staggeringly awful. Cathey and Jordan are terrific, but every other actor is dull as dishwater and so are their characters. The storytelling is terrible and incoherent. It’s offensive that “It’s clobberin’ time” is turned into the thing Ben’s abusive older brother says before beating him up — that corrupts it profoundly, and for no reason. It’s sexist as hell that Sue is left behind for the expedition — good grief, even the early comics that condescended to Sue like crazy (and essentially said her only reason for being on the team was as moral support for the menfolk) at least bothered to bring her along on the initial trip.
I know there were more things I hated about this movie, but I can’t remember them, and that’s probably for the best.
@2/J. Bencomo: As far as diverse casting goes, my top choices for Reed Richards would be Phil Morris and Daniel Dae Kim.
@3/Chieroscuro: I’d rather not see Doom’s origin tied to the FF’s origin. It wasn’t in the original comics, and the attempts of both Fox movie versions to tie them together both turned out badly. Doom doesn’t need an “origin,” because he doesn’t have superpowers — what he has is supergenius that’s directed toward conquest and vengeance. All he needs is a reason to despise Reed Richards.
Besides, as I’ve said before, the origin is the least interesting thing about the FF, and the best FF movie we’ve gotten to date was The Rise of the Silver Surfer, the only one that didn’t rehash their origin. The origin doesn’t matter — it’s simple and it can be explained with a few moments of exposition. The FF is more interesting as an established team.
I just realized that this was the 2nd FF movie to feature a really bad wig. Jessica Alba also sported a hideous one in Rise of the Silver Surfer.
@6/ChristopherLBennett: I don’t always agree with your opinions on the films in this rewatch, so I wanted to say (not that there’s any reason you’d care) that I agree with you 100% on this film, especially with the two decisions you cited. Those were such bad calls that my jaw dropped as I was watching the movie. There’s “wrong” as in “missed the mark,” and there’s WRONG as in “diametrically opposed to the right thing,” and both of those choices were WRONG.
When von Doom was introduced in the comics, he was already a villain, but unconnected to their origin. When the first movie included him in their origin, it seemed silly that they would choose to work with a guy named “von Doom” (or how a company with that name earns multi-billions). UFF changing his name to “van Damme” makes that slightly more palatable.
@2 @6….excellent choices…..I’d also put in John Cho…….
I just watched this last night for the first time…and it is as bad as I feared.
Why does Dr. Doom even have to be super-powered? It’s already ridiculous to shoehorn 4 people into an unlikely situation to be exposed to the secret sauce that turns them super, must you squeeze in a fifth who happens to be your rival and nemesis and turns into a super villain? In real life (erm) the FF would be something like a Space Shuttle or ISS crew, 4 people of varying scientific disciplines, all highly trained and cross-trained, who had trained together for months before the big day. Everyone with psychological issues (megalomania, undisciplined hot shot) would have been screened out long before, and no couples.
I watched this a few years ago and…oof. The first FF iteration was rough, and I thought this one was worse.
As mentioned, tonally it’s all over the place. It starts off light and then veers hard into body horror, which I thought was a weird choice. I just felt badly for the actors who were trapped in the movie. So yeah, I think it’s just about as bad as the ratings suggest.
Yeah I also think that if you were going to cast non-WASP, then an East Asian nerdy Richards would have been great. Probably too risky for a big studio movie, sadly.
I agree with the idea of using the Negative Zone instead too. To me I like FF stories where they are explorers and adventurers more than the regular super heroics or “Reed invents something without thinking about the consequences” (come to think of it, MCU Tony Stark has a lot of comic book Richards and Pym in him). An “escape with their lives and barely manage to shut the door on Annihilus” works for me. I’ve seen enough Doom for now; especially if they aren’t going to do anything interesting with him.
@14/vinsentient: “Yeah I also think that if you were going to cast non-WASP, then an East Asian nerdy Richards would have been great. Probably too risky for a big studio movie, sadly.”
Good grief, no — the “Asian tech nerd” is a tired racial stereotype that Asian-Americans have long since grown sick of being saddled with in the media. It wouldn’t have been “risky,” just thoughtless. I know I suggested Daniel Dae Kim, but not because of that stereotype, just because I think he’d be a cool leading man (and I think the ideal Reed would be a cool science nerd like Russell Johnson as the Professor, not a gawky nerd like the stereotype).
Noah Hawley is still trying to get a Doom movie off the ground. I’d rather see the MCU do that than another shoehorned Doom in a FF movie.
Annihilus could work as a truly alien threat, but they may hold off on him/it as a bigger bad down teh road, especially if tehy build to an Annihilation Wave storyline involving Nova, the Guardians, and some other cosmic entities, like Adam Warlock.
Ditto for Galactus, who may be the next Big Bad to replace Thanos.
Just started watching Dark Phoenix last night (quit about an hour in where Magneto and Jean are both striking very constipated looking poses while trying to cancel each other’s powers over a helicopter (I think…)). They kind of co-opt the FF’s origins in that movie by having the X-men’s jet fly into space (?) to save some shuttle astronauts from an anomaly, which then alters Jean. Didn’t realize how similar the origins were before.
A reboot of the FF could use the current trend of private companies going to space. Make each of the four competent professionals who have a reason to be there. Definitely no drunken trips motivated by sulking.
I’ve only watched about a half hour of this movie. By then the illogical elements were piling up enough to tune out. Also saw the scene where the Thing was air-dropped . Did Captain America’s similar move happen before or after that? And wouldn’t a Thing made of rocks shatter from the impact, or at least get chipped?
Geez, this movie. Yet another origin story. As someone mentioned above, I like the idea of making a new FF where their origin isn’t explored again. Make a note of that, Disney.
On that subject, just how many recent superhero movies have introduced the character or characters to the cinematic world but did NOT make the entire movie about their origin story? A movie where they’re already established heroes. Does anyone have a number? It seems pretty rare…
@16/Sunspear: “They kind of co-opt the FF’s origins in that movie by having the X-men’s jet fly into space (?) to save some shuttle astronauts from an anomaly, which then alters Jean. Didn’t realize how similar the origins were before.”
That’s authentic to the original Phoenix storyline in the comics, although there, it was an exceptionally intense solar flare that turned Jean into the Phoenix (later retconned as an alien entity possessing and/or duplicating her).
@17/JONES: “On that subject, just how many recent superhero movies have introduced the character or characters to the cinematic world but did NOT make the entire movie about their origin story?”
In the MCU, there’s The Incredible Hulk, which deftly summarized the origin within its opening titles. Thor is only partially an origin story; it doesn’t show Thor’s origin per se (because that’s just his birth), but it shows his introduction to Earth and how he learns to be a hero. The introduction of Spider-Man in Civil War would count too; the kid’s been in five MCU movies now and I don’t think the name “Uncle Ben” has been uttered even once. Both the Keaton Batman and Batman v Superman introduced Batman without an origin story. The first X-Men movie wasn’t an origin story except for Rogue. The first Hellboy wasn’t an origin story; like X-Men, it just showed a viewpoint character being newly introduced to an established group. The Ben Affleck Daredevil, like Thor, is about how the character learns heroism rather than how he originated.
-18
Wow, those are more than I figured. Thanks!
There is a great Fantastic Four movie waiting to be made.
And we’re still waiting.
Ok, no need to watch it I guess…
Sidenote to krad: I remember you liked Jidenna’s “Long Live the Chief” and its use in Luke Cage. He’s got a new album this month. The couple songs I’ve heard/watched on Youtube aren’t as catchy, but still worth listening to. “Sufi Woman” is a seduction song and “Tribe” has a reference to vibranium. He’s a lot more relaxed these days. No more 3-piece suits.
And oh, dear Kirby, just that still KRAD shows has some of the worst greenscreen I’ve seen in a long time. I wonder if that was from the reshoots? Because it looks sloppy enough to be.
It’s always baffling to me when they take a bright and fun and fanciful thing like the Fantastic Four or Superman and decide to make it grim and gritty and drained of color. Who keeps telling them this is a good idea?
I remember that I watched this and Ant-Man in the cinema during the same week, and they were like night and day, in that one movie was fun and enjoyable and the other movie was this one. Michael B. Jordan was good as Johnny, though.
When I was watching it, I thought that leaving Sue behind while the boys go exploring was bullshit, and I still think so. But it wasn’t as bad a decision as giving Victor superpowers.
I would sooner watch the 2005 movie a hundred times than see this turkey again.
Geez I didn’t even mention how horrible it was that Susan got left behind……
—Keith R.A. DeCandido
“Working-class Jew from the Lower East Side” is a bit dated these days. If you wanted to update it and diversify the cast, maybe Ben could be Salvadorean? Aunt Rosa’s favourite nephew. The one interesting idea this movie has is the distinction between scientists and explorers. If you’re a world-class scientist like Reed, you’ll sit in your lab and watch dumber, more expendable people explore the universe in your creations. The resolution of this wasn’t great in the movie, but there is the potential to divide up the team like this, to give them distinct roles. Reed and Sue sitting behind the blast wall, Ben and Johnny in the cockpit. Of course you’d have to contrive some reason for all four of them to blast off.
@27. Yes, with that well-known Hispanic surname “Grimm”.
Eh, just call him “Gimenez”, I don’t think people are too attached to the surname. “Benjamin” works for both.
@16,
“Also saw the scene where the Thing was air-dropped . Did Captain America’s similar move happen before or after that? And wouldn’t a Thing made of rocks shatter from the impact, or at least get chipped?”
I’ve only seen the movie once – and I’m not gonna back and check – but wouldn’t falling at that speed make a rather sizable crater and maybe even bury him in the ground?
@29. If you’re going to change the characters that much, you might be better served creating an original film. Besides, how many Jewish test pilots from the Bronx have appeared on the big screen in superhero movies?
@31/Almuric: It would hardly be the first time an adaptation has changed the name of a lead character. There are a couple of characters in The Expanse, for instance, who are amalgams of various characters from the books. Sometimes adaptations have to change character names for legal reasons, like when the TV version of The Dresden Files changed Detective Karrin Murphy to Constanza Murphy because there was a real Chicago detective named Karen Murphy (and because they cast Valerie Cruz in the role).
Although on the other hand, a Latino Ben could easily be named Grimm if his Latina mother married a man of that name, perhaps as a second husband, or if he was adopted like Sue was here. Or if his family just had their name Anglicized when they immigrated, which used to be a common practice.
Depends how important a particular ethnicity is to a character. I don’t think there was any problem with making Johnny black, but the comics Johnny was generic white and it’s a superficial change that’s never mentioned in the movie. Ben wasn’t Jewish in either movie version, but I’m not sure if that’s evidence for or against.
@32 – Wasn’t her name Connie? Unless her full name was Constanza, which sounds more like a Seinfeld character…
@26: Seriously! They could have had Sue’s dad run the control room just as easily. Or have Victor stay behind and remain unaffected – there’s a source of friction between him and the F4 to build on.
I’ve heard it suggested that an MCU Fantastic Four movie could be a period piece set in the 60s, or that their rocket could have left in 1961 and gotten displaced in time to the current day due to the Negative Zone or other cosmic weirdness.
I understand the idea of a 1960s Fantastic Four, and a time-displacement story is both exactly the kind of mess they end up in in the comics and a great way to explore the characters. Bob Chipman had a video where he proposed a variation of this, where a 1960s patriarchal Reed has to adjust to the 21st century and learn to er, be more flexible. It’s just depressing that “optimistic, confident explorers of the universe” have to be period characters.
@34/Austin: Yes, Connie was short for Constanza, which is the Spanish cognate of Constance.
@15 CLB
Whoah, who said anything about awkward techie? In real life, though not so much in comics, there’s tons of Asians in all kinds of scientific research and engineering roles. It makes total sense that the lead researcher for a scientific breakthrough style project could be East or South Asian. If it’s possible that a white scientist dude could also be courageous and adventurous in addition to being smart and insightful, why couldn’t an Asian one be?
Actually, now that I think of it, Mohinder from Heroes would have made a pretty hot Reed Richards, although too old for an origin story.
A while back when we covered the 2005 movie, I noted that the first quarter of an hour should have been the first half-hour and the last hour should have been the last two hours. With this one, what should have been the first half-hour was about the first two hours and what should have been the first two hours was the last twenty minutes. It takes an absolute age for them to actually get to the planet (without Sue) and get their powers, and by the time Doctor Doom turns up, the film’s almost over. (Okay, he’s there in his civilian guise and they call him Doctor Doom at one point in case no-one’s getting it, but the supervillain version only turns up in the final reel.) For much of the film, the government types seem like the antagonists, shafting the protagonists, then holding them prisoner and using the Thing as an assassin, so when Doctor Doom turned up and murdered them all I was pretty much cheering him on, which probably wasn’t the intention. I’ve seen some reviews criticise Reed for leaving his friends behind and going on the run for a year, but it did seem the lesser evil and he was planning to go back and help them. But the only way for him to become the leader was for Franklin Storm to get himself killed like an idiot, confronting Doom with no back-up and nothing to bargain with.
As the credits rolled with no mention of the Fantastic Four apart from in the title, it suddenly dawned on me: This wasn’t a film, it was a pilot. It’s pretty much all set-up and then you get a bit at the end that shows you what a normal episode will be like. Which is fine if there’s a normal episode on next week, but when an audience have shelled out money to see a Fantastic Four film, they kind of expect to see one, not a film about some people that are going to become the Fantastic Four some time in the future. And even if it had been a proper pilot with a series following, rather than a movie so confident in being the beginning of a franchise that it forgets to stand on its own: Who in their right mind uses Doctor flipping Doom as a disposable starter villain?
Black Johnny Storm. I should probably steer clear of this subject because I know I’m going to get bashed but here goes. Firstly, as mentioned, it’s done in a rather cowardly and half-hearted fashion, with Sue changed to Johnny’s adopted sister because they’re fine having an African-American as the second male lead/comic relief or as the mentor figure that gets killed, but apparently not as the female lead and hero’s love interest. Secondly, and this is where I get controversial, I lost a bit of my taste for “colour blind casting” when Ed Skein was convinced to pull out of a role in the new Hellboy movie because he was the “wrong” race, and this was presented, not just in fan circles, but on a mainstream news programme on a fairly major UK network as a triumph for equality, as opposed to a triumph for racism. I watched with utter horror as everyone seemed convinced that racial discrimination was a Good Thing when it’s a white actor considered wrong for a role because of his colour, knowing full well that there’s no way people would have reacted the same if Michael B Jordan had pulled out of the role of Johnny Storm for the same reason. I’ve heard it argued that there are fewer roles for non-whites in comics and I do see the point. It just feels like it’s not so much about wanting equal casting rights as wanting greater casting rights. (And people really do go overboard on these things sometimes: JK Rowling insisting that the Harry Potter stage play didn’t change Hermione’s race because she was never meant to be white in the first place was so obviously not true that it was practically a challenge for people to prove otherwise. They did.)
@27: Jews are dated??
Ben Grimm is based on his creator, Jack Kirby, who grew up in a working-class Jewish family in the Lower East Side. But Kirby was born 102 years ago, and the Lower East Side has massively changed since then. Different ethnic groups have moved in and out, and most of it has been intensely gentrified. It’s not impossible to have a contemporary working-class Jewish man grow up there, it’s just not using the same real-world reference that Kirby was using in 1961. Even changing the neighborhood like in the previous movies doesn’t really work, as the same thing has happened to most of New York. Talking about Spider-Man, Donald Glover said that he’d expect a teenage boy living with his uncle in Queens to be black, which is a similar idea.
@38/vinsentient: It’s not about real life, it’s about media stereotypes. And “Asians (Japanese specifically) are tech geniuses” is a stereotype that gets overused in the media and that I doubt Asian-Americans would be pleased by, any more than they like being stereotyped as martial artists (there have already been complaints about Shang-Chi, the first Asian MCU lead, being in such a cliched, ethnically coded role as a martial arts master). It’s limiting them to certain preset cubbyholes and expectations based on their race.
I’m not saying you couldn’t cast an Asian actor in such a role, but saying to the media “Yeah, we cast Reed as Asian specifically because he’s a nerdy tech genius” would come off as blatant racial stereotyping and be a huge misstep.
I’m a Latino, and I don’t like the idea of making Ben Grimm Latino. I think what a lot of Caucasian people don’t get is we’d rather have our own heroes than appropiating those from other cultures, which can often feel like a condescending hands-me-down. And if it isn’t handled very carefully, it’s even worse– for instance, making Gizmo Duck Latino in the new Duck Tales works well for the most part, but then you have, in a setting where species pun names are everywhere, the character being renamed ‘Cabrera’, a word derivated from the Spanish from ‘Goat’ (more specifically, a Cabrero or Cabrera, the former for males and the latter for females, is a goatkeeper, but much like Miller or Smith, those occupations often derivated into family names, and Cabrera is a valid surname) instead of something like ‘Patiño’, which at least sounds like ‘Pato’ (duck) just kind of hints they weren’t fully grasping what they were doing.
Even when consulting people of Hispanic ascendence, a mistake they often make is approaching second or third generation displaced Latinos who have lost direct contact with the homeland and even the language, instead of those who actually lived in the homelands or still live there.
But other than that, there’s also the fact Ben Grimm is an avatar of Jack Kirby, a guy who was a white Jew and definitely NOT a Latino, and who’s been far too ignored and overlooked by general audiences, and even the movies haven’t given him enough nods as his memory and heirs deserve IMHO (same for Ditko, save for the whole heirs part since he had none). I think Jack’s earned that much at least.
Re: Nerdy Asian scientist characters- I liked Batman: The Brave and the Bold‘s take on Ryan Choi’s Atom, since, while very nerdy, he also neatly countered the ‘Asian characters are calmed and Zen-like’ stereotype by making him an easily exasperated and frustrated ball of nerves. At least it was a new take on the character type.
@43/J. Bencomo: Interesting observation about Fenton. I suspect that since he’s played by Lin-Manuel Miranda, they wanted to give the character a similar-sounding name, so maybe they went with “Fenton Crackshell-Cabrera” for the alliteration. Although you’re right that even the celebrity-derived character names in DuckTales traditionally have an avian pun in there somewhere, e.g. Gandra Dee or Oprah Webfeet. Maybe they figured that was already covered by “Crackshell.”
I can never remember where I read this, but I once encountered a movie idea for the Fantastic Four that is purposefully retro and set in the 1960’s, right down to the movie-making techniques (like that silly Ewan McGregor/Renee Zellweger international homage to the Rock Hudson/Doris Day sex comedies), only with modern special effects. I always thought that would be the best bet, since the FF were partially informed by the Kennedys and the allure of Camelot. The masterful comics artist Alex Ross captures this as well, right down to Sue Storm setting fashion trends a la Jackie Kennedy. The whole origin story is just so much a product of its time and I wish someone had taken this whole idea and run with it.
@45. I don’t know why people want the Fantastic 4 specifically to be stuck in the past. I don’t think anyone was demanding that Iron Man be tied to Vietnam, or that the Blade movies take place in the ’70s. We live in an era where tech billionaires are launching private spaceships, and yet the FF making their own spaceshot is somehow outdated? I’d say it’s more plausible now.
@46, It’s mostly a) because the Kennedy/Camelot influence as I said, plus it would b) set it aside and make it distinct from the plethora of super hero movies. Arguably, the retro-styled X-Men movies worked in that regard, for example.
@42 – “(there have already been complaints about Shang-Chi, the first Asian MCU lead, being in such a cliched, ethnically coded role as a martial arts master)”
And yet there are a ton of people – on this very site, including some of the writers – who loudly complain that Danny Rand wasn’t race-swapped to be Asian, because he was a white guy doing martial arts and that’s racist. (In fact, I got into a screaming match with a prominent io9 writer because he made the statement that only Asians should be allowed to do martial arts on-screen because it’s “part of their culture”. Good lord.)
There is no way whatsoever for Marvel, or anyone that creates media right now, to win. There will always be a sizable group of people ready to condemn the show or movie for the casting choices.
My problem with a retro Fantastic Four is that they’re basically Marvel’s answer to Star Trek. They’re explorers and inventors pushing the frontiers of knowledge in the Marvel universe. They can’t do much of that if they’re stuck decades in the past, since we know the inhabitants of the MCU weren’t generally aware of aliens, other dimensions, etc. prior to Thor’s arrival and the Battle of New York. Sure, the Ant-Man movies, Black Panther, and Doctor Strange have established hyper-advanced civilizations and exotic realms of existence that were kept secret by various groups and hidden from the public, but that’s exactly why it would be derivative to go there again.
I want to see the FF in the here and now. I want them to take over Tony Stark’s niche as the vanguard of technology and superheroics in the MCU, like they are in the comics. And I want them to be part of the larger superhero community like they are in the comics. Look how many FF-adjacent characters are around in the present day of the MCU or are announced to be coming up in the near future — Black Panther, Doctor Strange (through the Illuminati, at least), She-Hulk, the Inhumans (at least on ABC, though Ms. Marvel is coming to Disney+ and probably the movies), maybe Spider-Man if they sort out the rights dispute. It wouldn’t be right to exclude the FF from that community.
And no, I don’t think having them starting out in the ’60s and going through a time warp to the present or something would fix the problem. No matter how brilliant Reed is, he’d be half a century behind the times and wouldn’t have the theoretical or practical grounding to keep up with modern scientists and inventors.
It looks like they are going through with that concept unfortunately. I just hope we’ll be spared any cringeworthy 60’s jokes. Lest they start playing that era’s music
@48 – I think people were objecting to the “white savior” trope rather than objecting to a white guy doing marital arts.
@48/danielmclark: Yes, that’s the problem — our cultural history is so loaded with stereotypes surrounding Asians that there are a lot of potential pitfalls, not just one. The white-savior trope and the “all Asians are martial artists” trope are both problematical for different reasons. Of course, the real problem is that there are so few non-stereotyped roles for Asian actors in general. If there were more opportunities overall to play all different kinds of roles, then characters like Shang-Chi would just be one option out of many and there wouldn’t be an issue. Which is why it’s good to have a film like Crazy Rich Asians opening new doors and broadening perceptions of Asian-American movie roles (hopefully, assuming the diversification continues).
@49 I have to agree. If people want a 1960’s aesthetic, they can always make the hi-tech bits look like something out of The Incredibles.
my favorite comic as a kid![.](//s04.flagcounter.com/mini/Jkzv/bg_FFFFFF/txt_DEDEDE/border_FFFFFF/flags_0/.jpg" width="1"/>)
(there have already been complaints about Shang-Chi, the first Asian MCU lead, being in such a cliched, ethnically coded role as a martial arts master)
Not from Asian American comic fans, who knew how Shang Chi was used to subvert the stereotypes and was actually one of the few pop culture Asian figures in the 1980s and 90s who had a healthy sex life and relationship with a woman.
Quote: “Besides which, the roles of Franklin and Johnny Storm were played by, respectively, Reg E. Cathey and Michael B. Jordan, two of the finest actors drawing breath.”
Hyperbole much? Yes. Accurate, uh definitely no. There are plenty of actors with resumes from the theater, films and yes television who are much more accomplished and yes BETTER actors than either actor. Yes, they are talented but so are many actors but neither has acted in any production that has historical impact like a Deniro, Pacino, Streep etc. etc. etc….
@55/jd: Fame does not equal talent. And talent is not a zero-sum game. There are many brilliant actors in the world; it’s not a horse race.
@55
Black Panther. Just because that is a superhero movie does not diminish its historical impact for a significant subset of the population.
@55: Plus, it’s a bit disingenuous to dismiss a couple of black actors by saying they haven’t acted in any production that has the historical impact of DeNiro, Pacino, Streep, et al, when part of the point is that there are scant projects or roles with that impact available for people of color. Hell, Pacino himself played Tony Montana. Not exactly the accurate ethnicity for the role, is it?
Agreed, this movie isn’t as bad as everybody made it out to be, but it’s also not very good. Teller is perfect for Reed, at least visually, but I didn’t really get any particular impression from the other characters. Worst of all, like you said, they made Ben Grimm boring.
I wonder what the movie was lke before the reshoots.
@27 – Gareth: Ben Grimm is Jewish, like his creators, and the single best-known Jewish character in comics. Please leave him be.
@55: Both Cathey and Jordan performed very complex (and in Jordan’s case, tragic) characters in HBO’s The Wire.
I don’t know what your definition of ‘historical impact’ really is, but you can be sure most writers and critics place The Wire as the single most influential drama produced over the past 20 years. It is why both actors have had healthy prolific careers ever since, and it is also why writer David Simon continues to develop projects that tackle deep urban social issues for HBO to this day.
And even people of Streep and Pacino’s calliber can get involved in duds, every now and then.
One example, three words:
Big Little Lies.
There is a Marvel comic where Ben Grimm and Kitty Pryde from X-Men discuss the importance of representing because they are the only Jewish superheroes in America. Or something like that…
Reed Richards on Earth-65 is a black kid genius with the same hair-gone-white bits as the original Mister Fantastic. And works alone.
Ultimate Reed Richards eventually becomes Science Loki. Or Dark Fantastic?
Why is Harvey Allen running the Baxter Foundation and not an Allen Foundation? I know the FF usually live in a skyscraper called the Baxter Building.
Maybe Doctor Doom can’t use his Planet Zero powers on the FF’s brains because their powers are Planet Zero powers too. Did no one say?
“No, Magneto, we’ve had this conversation…”
@42 CLB
I have no real opinion about whether it would be a PR mis-step to have an Asian Reed Richards, but I think you are wrong in thinking that it’s not about real life and only about media stereotypes. To me, there is value is showing people their lived experiences on screen. It is a fact that there are many people of Asian descent doing science and engineering in the US, and I feel it would make the character relatable. The difference between Asians being portrayed as, say, math whizzes versus kung fu masters is that many *are* math whizzes but few are kung fu masters.
Also, I don’t agree that the role would be as cliched as you think. If it was just a supporting techie role then I might agree with you, because it would look like an Asian actor can’t get work in Hollywood unless it’s in a lab coat or a gi. But you are ignoring the other half of Richard’s character which is a brave, curious explorer and adventurer who is the leader of the (sometimes) most famous super team in the world, who uses his tech skills and intellect in support of that adventuring, and could very well be the main character (though I personally think Grimm makes a better viewpoint character). There’s a big difference in those two roles and I say that makes all the difference.
@64/vinsentient: You’re forgetting that I suggested Daniel Dae Kim for the role even before you brought it up. If you cast a good actor for Reed’s personality and general look and he happens to be Asian, great. But if you say “an East Asian tech nerd would be great,” if you choose an actor specifically because you think that race should go with that role, then that sounds like a deliberate embrace of a stereotype. Yes, there are plenty of Asian-Americans in the US doing science and math, which is why it’s become a stereotype, but there are plenty of Asian-Americans in other walks of life as well.
One correction; Father Storm did have the first name Franklin in the comics. It’s why Franklin Richards was named that.
@65 CLB
OK, but I meant that more in the sense that if you are going to shake up the casting, I’d like to see someone Asian. Separately, I’d also like to see someone be genuinely nerdy, in an Apollo 11 problem solving sense, which we didn’t really get yet with Stark or Parker.
I also didn’t say “tech” (as in Silicon Valley?) nerd specifically; I want a character with intellectual curiosity, willing to investigate the unknown, and driven to build the apparatus to do so, and not just in a thirty second montage. This is the differentiating factor of the FF (well, that and “family” status) that makes them different from any other run of the mill superhero team.
I get your concern, that the socially maladjusted, Asian geek stereotype is lazy (and don’t even get me started about mysterious ninja girl) but over ten years of MCU and DCEU I can’t think of any Asian characters other than mayyyyyybe Wong or Ned Leeds who receive any significant amount of screen time.
@67/vinsentient: There was Helen Cho in Age of Ultron, and Jimmy Woo in Ant-Man and the Wasp. Plus Kenneth Choi as both Jim Morita in Captain America: The First Avenger and his descendant Principal Morita in Spider-Man: Homecoming. Plus there have been Asian actors as nonhumans, like Hogun and Mantis.
And of course there’s been plenty of Asian representation in the MCU’s TV side — May and Daisy on Agents of SHIELD, Colleen in Iron Fist, Nico and Tina Minoru in Runaways, etc.
I can’t get behind those movie examples. Jimmy Woo went from the leader of super team Agents of Atlas to a comedy relief antagonist for Lang. I don’t count Helen Cho and Jim Morita as being “significant”, and Cho might actually fit the anti-pattern you’ve been talking about.
I agree TV has been much better. I actually followed Agents of SHIELD for a few seasons (up until the time travelling, space asteroid season) solely because of May and Daisy even though I disliked the show overall. I also liked Colleen Wing a lot in Defenders and Luke Cage. Do note that both Jessica Henwick and Chloe Bennet are of mixed heritage though and Bennet in particular didn’t read “Asian” to many viewers when the show first started.
Quoth vinsentient: “Bennet in particular didn’t read ‘Asian’ to many viewers when the show first started.”
That was, depressingly, by design. Her actual name is Chloe Wang, but she goes by Bennet (her Chinese father’s first name) because she got more work if she read as Caucasian rather than Asian.
—Keith R.A. DeCandido
Notice how almost every superhero movie discussion these days turns into a debate about race?
@70/krad: I’m reminded of how Smallville passed off Kristin Kreuk as white, casting white actors as both of Lana Lang’s biological parents. Which was a wasted opportunity, because “Lang” is an actual Chinese surname (although in the show, it turned out to be the surname of her adoptive father). I’m glad that Agents went a different route and had Skye/Daisy turn out to be half-Chinese.
@71/Almuric: American superhero fiction, like all American fiction, has always been shaped by race and the creators’ attitudes toward it — attitudes that have been invisible to the group that was favored by them but quite noticeable to everyone else. It’s good that now we’re actually talking about them and doing something to change them. It’s progress.
Please don’t fall into the trap of “not Asian enough”. President Obama was of “mixed heritage” – was he not black enough to be considered black?
Jessica Yu Li Henwick is half Singaporean Chinese and half Zambian English – do you really want to discount her from the representation tally?
@72″ I’m reminded of how Smallville passed off Kristin Kreuk as white, casting white actors as both of Lana Lang’s biological parents.”
Why not? Kreuk is part-European. The half-European Tilly sisters (Meg and Jennifer) usually play European characters.
@73:”Please don’t fall into the trap of “not Asian enough”. President Obama was of “mixed heritage” – was he not black enough to be considered black?”
Apples-to-Oranges. In an Anglo-American context, Black trumps everything else.
@73 yes you are right. They should be included in both communities, not exluded from both. My bad.
@16 – There is a great Fantastic Four movie in existence, two in fact. They are called THE INCREDIBLES 1 and 2.
I watched this movie recently on Disney Plus and for some time the movie seemed to rely on the body horror of the transformations the characters were undergoing. So it felt more like that Venture Brothers episode that asked what if the Fantastic Four existed but were suffering due to their conditions. Which is a nice setup for 5 minutes, but doesn’t translate to a good story. Even the Venture Bros didn’t dwell much on it. And it’s not the right tone for an interesting FF4 movie.
And the climax has a sky beam and doesn’t make much sense. Everybody is better forgetting this movie existed.
Ryamano: That episode of The Venture Bros. is still a better Fantastic Four story than this movie……
—Keith R.A. DeCandido
I’ve watched CLIPS of it online and I still remember it more than this movie, while aside from Ben’s delivery of “fantastic” at the end.
Sidenotw: I’m kinda sad about what the MCU did to Jimmy Woo. He led an entire freaking team of heroes (Agents of Atlas) back in the 40’s and yet he’s a side character in Ant-Man. Sigh…
One day, Jimmy, you’ll be done justice. One day