Well, here we are again! Did that chapter have some unexpected developments, or what‽ As a continuation of last week’s events, this week gives us a wacky combination: overview of the past year, current status of the war, the Mink’s reactions to developments, plus rumors and proposals. Come on in, and let’s talk it over!
Reminder: we’ll potentially be discussing spoilers for the entirety of the series up until now—if you haven’t read ALL of the published entries of the Stormlight Archive, best to wait to join us until you’re done.
In this week’s discussion we have no spoilers from other Cosmere books, so fear not!
Chapter Recap
WHO: Navani
WHERE: Urithiru
WHEN: Day 17, continued (immediately following Chapter 16)
L: I’ve done my best with the map, to give approximations of the troop placements and current battlefields as described in this chapter. Anything that I’m uncertain of (in regards to who holds which territory) I’ve simply left alone.
A: Excellently done. I love the visual layout of the world as it stands now. I mean… I could wish the blue areas were bigger, but that’s how it is.
The Mink arrives for a strategy meeting with Dalinar and company, in which we learn the state of the world currently in regards to battles and troop placements. It is revealed that there’s… some sort of relationship going on between Jasnah and Hoid, and Jasnah indicates that she’s taking her new position as Queen of Alethkar seriously with some sweeping new legislation…
Overall Reactions
The map’s sudden appearance caused the Mink to scramble away. He was at the door in a fraction of a second, standing with it cracked, ready to flee. He was a paranoid type, wasn’t he?
A: For all those wanting the Mink’s reaction to the map… there it is. LOL.
Okay, technically, that’s his reaction to the Stormlight flooding the room. When the map snaps into place so he can see what it is…
The Mink’s eyes went wide, and awespren burst above him like a ring of smoke.
A: This makes me smile. We as readers have gotten used to the whole magic thing, but I love the moments when we get to watch someone see this kind of thing for the first time.
L: Especially for someone who’s so seemingly jaded.
A: Much of the interaction with the Mink is just going over the current state of affairs, but he—painfully—shows several times why he’s the man who fought off the singer invasion of Herdaz for a year, and will be an excellent addition to their command staff if he’ll join them. This, for example:
“Tell me why you have so many troops stationed here, here, and here.” …
“We need to hold the ports,” Dalinar said.
“Hmm. Yes, I assume that excuse works for the others in your coalition?”
A: Buurrnnnnn.
“It’s almost like you don’t trust the one watching your back…”
A: So Dalinar is finally forced to admit that no, they don’t trust the one supposedly watching their back. Taravangian.
There’s actually a lot of infodump in this chapter, but it works because they need to explain things to the Mink. We get the reiteration of the end of Oathbringer, the layout of troops, the position of the navies, the defection of the Skybreakers, and the current battle lines.
L: Fellow writers, take note. This is a super effective way of dumping exposition on your readers.
I do not trust the Blackthorn, but perhaps I can trust the man who would write the words you did.
A: Up until now, we’ve thought a lot about the impact of Dalinar’s book on his family and, to some extent, the Alethi in general. Now we see a completely different angle: A very hostile Herdazian general, whose expertise they desperately need, indicates that the change in Dalinar may be the thing that persuades him to work with them. Hmmm.
L: I wonder how much of Dalinar’s internal justification to write it was based on this vs. his desire/need to atone for his sins. He had to have known, or at least suspected, that admitting to his faults would have this sort of effect on some people.
A: After the early mistrust of the other coalition members who then warmed to him once they met the “new Dalinar,” it would be naive of him not to think of it. After the way Taravangian used secrets against him at Thaylen City, it was also probably expedient to make sure there weren’t any more skeletons in the closet. Laying out the contrast, not hiding the horror but showing that he’s a different man… yes, the more I think of it, the more I think it was wise. It’s hard on his sons, because not only did he unintentionally kill their mother, he proves that she was… not entirely correct in her evaluation of him. Still, like I said: the more I think about it, the more I think it’s better to put all the old secrets out there so they no longer have power over him.
Sadly for Dalinar, the Mink advises exactly what he didn’t want to hear, even though he probably knew it: if they’re going to make a push in this war, trying to reclaim Alethkar is not the move to make. They tacitly agree, however reluctantly, that it makes more sense to escalate the battle for Emul, where they hope to be able to pin the singer forces against the army of Tukar. Yep, Ishar’s army. Fun fun fun!
L: It’s not really clear whether or not Ishar can be counted on for… much of anything. I hope our heroes don’t wind up having to fight him, though. Fighting against what’s essentially an immortal warrior, viewed by many as a “god”? Oh yeah. That’d go great.
A: Right? I’d assume they’re hoping the mad god-king-dude will go berserker on the other side of the singer army and do half their work for them, but I guess we’ll have to RAFO that. It does leave another question in my mind, though: Suppose they manage to completely oust the singers and Fused from Emul. Then they’re right next to Ishar, and this makes me nervous.
Not unreasonably, Dalinar has further concerns to discuss after the Mink leaves.
“But I have this terrible feeling, Jasnah. It whispers that there is no way to win this war. Not against an immortal enemy. I worry about losing, but I worry more about something else. What do we do if we force them out of Azir, and they agree to cease hostilities? Would we give up Alethkar, if it meant ending the war?”
“I don’t know,” Jasnah said. “That seems to be putting our chulls to work before we’ve bought them. We don’t know if such a compromise as you suggest is possible.”
“It wouldn’t be,” Wit said. … “Odium will not compromise. He will not settle for anything other than our complete submission, perhaps destruction.”
A: We don’t know whether this is Wit pushing for his own goals, or if this is truly what he believes; I’m going with the latter option. Actually, I’m going with both, because this is Hoid we’re talking about, and he’s sufficiently committed to his own goals (whatever they are!) that he wouldn’t jeopardize them; I just think it’s probable that he truly believes that an accord of the kind Dalinar suggests is not something Odium would accept.
The sad thing is, if it were up to the singers, and maybe the Fused like Leshwi, they might get that kind of agreement. But then there are the Fused like Lezian—and in anycase, it’s not up to them; as long as Odium is the driving force, they don’t get a lot of choice in the matter.
L: I’m inclined to believe that Hoid is being genuine here too, since we’ve seen evidence of most of this mentality. Odium has pretty much outright said this.
“Once in a while though, I do think you need to be reminded that not everyone sees the world the way you do.”
“It would be better for us all if they did,” he grumbled.
L: YIKES. Danger, Wil Robinson, danger! I’m really glad that Dalinar has people around him to keep him in check, because I think he’d definitely have the potential to become a tyrant (albeit one with good intentions) if left to his own devices.
A: Most tyrants believe they have good intentions, and the results are usually less than desirable.
Relationships & Romances
It was the same Wit who had served Elhokar, so Navani had known this man for a few years. Yet he was… different now. … There was a mystery about this Wit that Navani had never noticed during Elhokar’s reign. Perhaps he molded himself to the monarch he served.
A: One of the small mysteries of the Alethi remains the relationship between the King/Queen and the Wit. When Elhokar was king, Wit apparently spent most of his time taking the mickey out of everyone except Elhokar and Renarin. It would seem that now he spends more of his time conspiring with his monarch. Conspiring what, though?
L: It’s a really interesting relationship, for sure. At first I had thought that The Wit functioned something like a court jester of old, existing solely to entertain the monarch… but he also seems to be fulfilling a bit of an adviser role, which—let’s face it—for Hoid, could be either awesome for the Cosmere, or dangerous.
A: Way too true.
L: We as readers just don’t know enough about him or his goals. We don’t know if his assertions that he’s trying to save the Cosmere (at any cost) are true. I truly hope that Jasnah is wise enough to be able to drill down to his true motivations. Hopefully she knows more than we do, at this point.
As soon as [the Mink] was gone—the map collapsing as Shallan left—Jasnah changed subtly. Her face became less of a mask. She didn’t walk with a queenly gait as she strode over and settled down at the room’s small table. This was the woman taking off her crown, now that she was with only family.
Family and Wit, Navani thought as the lanky man, dressed all in black, walked over to fetch some wine. She couldn’t tell if the rumors about those two were true or not, and hadn’t felt comfortable asking. Strange, that a mother should feel so unwilling to chat with her daughter about intimate matters. But… well, that was Jasnah.
A: Well, isn’t that interesting. Not only do we get to see two sides of Jasnah in one chapter—the elegant, precise Queen and the down-to-earth woman—there are rumors. Rumors about Jasnah and Wit. And lest anyone miss what these rumors might be, Navani specifies “intimate matters.” So what’s the betting? Are the rumors true, or no?
L: This makes me really uneasy. (And no, not because it “disproves” the prevailing fan theory that Jasnah is ace. People who are asexual are completely capable of being in romantic relationships. We don’t know yet one way or the other which is true, but whichever way Sanderson decides to go with it, I’m fine with.)
A: (FWIW, I really wouldn’t call that a “prevailing” fan theory, though I know some people hold to it. Like every other theory, it’s just a theory, and I’m not convinced that it’s widespread.)
L: Regardless, the reason this makes me uneasy is because I’m afraid that Hoid is using her. As I stated earlier, I’d like to believe that Jasnah is wise enough to look deeply into this and suss out all of Hoid’s possible motivations. But… she’s also human, and people have a tendency to overlook things when they fall in love. If she’s legitimately fallen for Hoid, here… there’s a possibility that those feelings aren’t really reciprocated and he’s just using her to further his own goals. We know he would do so, if the fate of the Cosmere was at stake. And that’s what makes me uneasy about this situation.
A: Valid concern, for sure! Even if the whole thing were a Romance for the Ages, reciprocal feelings and all, I think we know enough about Hoid to realize that he’d let it go if it got in the way of his other goal. And no matter how much he might love her (might, if the rumors are true), he’d still use her to further that goal.
L: And—and this is such a hard thing to say—who’s to say that he wouldn’t be right to do so, if it would save the entire universe? Here’s those tricky ethics at play, again.
Weighty Words / The Knights Radiant
L: Let’s talk a little about the Oathpact.
My father would occasionally discuss matters of deep Realmatic Theory with him—but I didn’t care for it. Why should I? Ishar had it in hand.”
“He forged the Oathpact,” Jasnah said. “The . . . binding that made you immortal and trapped the Voidbringers in another realm of reality.”
“Braize isn’t another realm of reality,” Ash said. “It’s a planet. You can see it in the sky, along with Ashyn—the Tranquiline Halls, you call it. But yeah, the Oathpact. He did that. We all simply went along with it.” She shrugged.
L: This isn’t exactly new news, but I do find it interesting that they (Heralds and Fused both) were trapped on another planet. (For some reason this is stranger for me to consider than being trapped in an alternate dimension/form of reality, possibly because we have verified cases of world-hopping already.) How, exactly were they trapped there for so long? Were they transported there, with no way to leave? What was keeping the traditional methods of world-hopping from working, here?
A: So much we don’t know!! I believe we’ll have to learn more about Bondsmith powers to understand the mechanics. We learned earlier that the Heralds were able to decide when to lock in the Oathpact each time, and also when to let it go. The Fused had significantly less flexibility. But… why did it work? How did it work? I really want to know…
“It’s broken,” Ash said. “Done, shattered, upended. They killed my father a year ago. Permanently, somehow. We all felt it.”
L: ::mutters:: F*** Moash.
A: Yep.
“And do you think Dalinar,” Jasnah asked, “as a Bondsmith, could repair or replicate it somehow? Sealing the enemy away?”
“Who knows?” Ash said. “It doesn’t work the same for you all as it did for us, when we had our swords. You’re limited, but sometimes you do things we couldn’t.”
L: Verrrrrry interesting. This is, at least, leaving the door open to possibility!
A: Doesn’t it, though? I don’t think Sanderson would have Dalinar just recreate or repair the Oathpact, and go back to the way it’s been in the past, because that doesn’t seem like the narrative he’d write. But when I read this, I wonder what variation he might be able to craft.
L: I agree. I think we’re going to be looking at something entirely different, whether that be unity or destruction. No more half-measures for Roshar.
What We Missed (In the Timeskip)
“I forbid this,” Dalinar said. “You can’t simply free every Alethi slave. It would cause mass chaos.”
“I wasn’t aware,” Jasnah said, “that you could forbid the queen from taking action.”
“You called it a proposal,” Dalinar said.
“Because I am not finished with the wording yet,” Jasnah replied. “I intend to propose it to the highprinces soon and gauge their reactions. I will deal with their concerns as best I can before I make it law. Whether or not I will make it law, however, is not a matter I intend to debate.”
A: BOOM. And we wondered what kind of changes Jasnah would make as Queen of Alethkar. Now we know one of the things she’s been working on, and it’s a doozy!
L: I love this. I’m also getting some real shades of Daenerys Targaryen, here. Let’s hope that this goes better for Jasnah than it did for Dany… Aside from A Song of Ice and Fire references (which I am certain are unintentional on Sanderson’s part as he’s purportedly only read the first book, and let’s face it, freeing of slaves is a pretty common theme in fantasy books), I love the fact that Jasnah is really taking the helm here and doing what she believes is right regardless of what anyone else thinks. Even her uncle. And while we’re on this note:
“This isn’t the time, Jasnah. We can’t create social upheaval on this scale during such a terrible moment in our history.”
“Says the man,” Jasnah said, “who wrote a book earlier this year. Upending centuries of established gender norms.”
L: I just need to point out how much of a badass Jasnah is here. She never backs down—she calls Dalinar out succinctly and clearly, and rightfully so.
A: She’s brilliant. Also, she points out that she’s done the research and this is the perfect time to institute such a change. Her background as a scholar and historian may be downplayed, but I love the way it shows at just the right times. She’s not just a scholar, but she is a scholar, and a brilliant one. And she pulls no punches.
Jasnah held weekly meetings with the Heralds, trying to pry every bit of historical knowledge from their minds. She’d claimed the meetings were mostly fruitless, but Navani knew to hang on to the word “mostly” when coming from Jasnah. She could hide a great deal in the spaces between those letters.
A: We haven’t seen much in the text (so far) of information gained from having two Heralds living in Urithiru. Taln is, sadly, still nearly catatonic, and Ash seems to be… well, less cooperative than one might have hoped.
In this particular case, she doesn’t seem to know very much about the Bondsmith abilities, and most of what she tells us here about Bondsmiths was either known or guessed by the readers long since. However, we do get one new bit of info: Ash spent a lot of time in Shinovar; she knows they have the Honorblades, and that they have people who have practiced with those Blades to develop an understanding of all the Surgebinding on Roshar. Also, for some reason they tried to kill her, and she didn’t mind, but she left when they started worshipping her. Okay, then.
L: I love Ash. I hope we get a lot more information on her when we eventually get Taln’s backstory book in the back five.
A: In further developments, it seems that Our Heroes have been trying to contact Shinovar, which has become extraordinarily hostile, what with disappearing scouts and storms of arrows launched at Windrunners. Dalinar is worried that he needs to progress his Bondsmith skills, but the only people who know anything about his Order, the Shin and Tezim/Ihsar, are hostile to him. What’s a lonely Bondsmith to do?
L: I don’t know… experiment? That’s how he’s managed to find out everything he has so far, right? I’m surprised that Navani isn’t pressuring him more to perform experiments with the other Orders.
A: It’s implied that he’s tried without success, but it does seem like he ought to be spending more time on the effort.
Fabrial Technology & Spheres
The simplest Fused weapon against us isn’t truly a fabrial, but instead a metal that is extremely light and can withstand the blows of a Shardblade. This metal resists being Soulcast as well; it interferes with a great number of Radiant powers.
Fortunately, the Fused seem unable to create it in great quantities—for they equip only themselves, and not their average soldiers, with these wonders.
A: My first assumption on this was aluminum, but I’m not at all sure of that. The fact that this stuff resists being soulcast isn’t evidence, because we know you can soulcast things into aluminum, but soulcasting aluminum into other things might not work so well. Also, it’s possible that soulcasting things into aluminum is difficult and unreliable; maybe that’s why it’s still so rare and expensive. But that’s hardly proof. I hope we find out at some point, though—I’d like a canon answer to the metal question!
Navani had seen Shallan and Dalinar summon the map dozens of times, but—as with Dalinar’s ability to recharge spheres—she felt there was more to be learned by careful examination.
A: Navani is determined to wrest every last iota of information she can from observing the powers of Radiants in action, and particularly Dalinar’s Bondsmith abilities. The fact that he hasn’t been able to do anything similar with other Radiants is particularly interesting. Though she doesn’t say so, I can’t help wondering if part of why she watches so closely is an effort to understand how it works and how it might function differently with another Surge. In any case, it’s always fascinating (to me, anyway) to watch Navani’s thought processes. She’s such an engineer at heart.
We’ll be leaving the speculation to you in the comments, so have fun and remember to be respectful of the opinions of others!
Also, as a note of interest. We’ve laid out how the discussion/reread posts will be working for the rest of the year. After Rhythm of War is released, Alice and I will be diving into a reread of Dawnshard for the second half of November and all of December (though we will be moving back to Thursdays). We’ll then be starting up the reread of Rhythm of War in January, after everyone’s hopefully had a chance to read through it once (or more). There will be a few more scattered articles on Stormlight subjects over the next few months to look forward to as well, so keep an eye on TOR.com!
Alice is busy prepping new articles for the Rhythm of War release run-up. Watch these spaces.
Lyndsey is missing her faire family dearly. In these bylines, she’ll be giving some shout-outs to fellow local performers or vendors who could really use the support. This week, check out Drunk and Disorderly for all your pub song needs! If you’re an aspiring author, a cosplayer, or just like geeky content, follow her work on Facebook or Instagram.
Regarding Jasnah and Hoid. I think we’re seeing this from Navani’s point of view, plus the rumors, and everyone is making the incorrect assumption. I feel like maybe Hoid has been telling Jasnah something. About the Cosmere, or Realmatics, or something. And she probably knows that he’s more than he lets on. I have no idea what information Hoid’s been sharing with Jasnah, but that’s probably what causes others to assume else is going on.
That was interesting. I was mostly sure the POV would switch to Shallan but it’s nice to get something unexpected and to expand the scope of the story a bit.
Not surprised Jasnah wants to free all slaves, even at a time like this.
Feels like this is more about setting up some things for book 5. But, Jasnah planning to leave is helpful for the Fused…
I rarely say this, but I think this chapter would have been more interesting if from Dalinar’s viewpoint. I don’t think Navani’s viewpoint added much to it and I felt Dalinar’s thought over how others are reacting to his books would have been more interesting to read about.
It isn’t I disliked the chapter, but it was rather… uneventful and it dodged around what would be interesting, IMHO.
I would have preferred if, this week, we had changed perspective. This is nothing against Navani, I just didn’t feel her voice was the best one here nor the most interesting to read. Hence, I felt I was reading the wrong character here and certainly not the most interesting one to narrate the scene.
I definitely think the Wit/Jasnah romance is a red herring. But maybe it will deflect the Jasnah/Kaladin shippers. I can see her being intellectually attracted to Wit, but also smart enough to guard her heart.
I also think that the lack of experiments between Dalinar and other orders are sort of because he and Navani sometimes give off unapproachable snob vibes. Shallan only discovered the map making ability because she was willing to act on instict and touch the Blackthorn. Who else besides Jasnah would have the guts to do that?
I’m surprised in the discussion they didn’t mention how in the previous chapters the Singers were trying to figure out a way to get Dalinar out of Urithiru and now this happens, making it sound like he will be leaving just like they want
I waited seventeen chapters for Jasnah to show and by storms it was worth it. I don’t think Dalinar expected to be able to use Jasnah as a figurehead or a puppet the way he, unfortunately, increasingly did with Elhokar. But I also don’t think he anticipated her taking the title, all the powers that go with it, and immediately running riot. He should have. But Dalinar thinks in military terms, disciplined command structures etc. He probably thought Jasnah would go with him/agree with him for the greater good during war time. But alas. She’s Jasnah so she does what she wants.
Jasnah and Wit have had an interesting dynamic for me since he met her at the end of WoR. At this point we know Jasnah has been, and still is, incredibly secretive about her abilities as a Radiant.
She didn’t seem surprised to see him there, though she did ask how he’d found her. She also didn’t seem shocked by his obvious knowledge of Shadesmar and previous experience there/with the spren, she didn’t seem at all abashed at Elsecalling right in front of him. He also uses the word “Elsecall” in front of her and she doesn’t bat an eyelid. I think Wit already knew that Jasnah was Radiant, and I think Jasnah knew that he knew. She demands Wit tell her what he knows, and I don’t think she was meaning only about what happened since she was gone. I think she knows Wit is more than he appears and has knowledge beyond Roshar, and that he’s been a resource for her in the past. He’s approached all the other Radiants before in times of strife/conflict and help them, I assume he did the same for Jasnah, just years ago.
He also gave her detailed sketches of the Heralds when they met, which allowed her to identify Taln and Ash at the end of Oathbringer. He ALSO told her about the true reason foe the Recreance and the fact that humans were the invasive species on Roshar. That’s some fairly weighty knowledge.
I don’t think it’s entirely surprising she’s using Wit as a resource at the moment, or that they have a closer relationship than Hoid and Elhokar. Hoid didn’t think very highly of Elhokar at all, but clearly sees Jasnah as being more capable. Jasnah also gave him information he didn’t know from her time in Shadesmar, which is intriguing. Their treck back to civilisation together and what else they may have shared intrigues me.
I’m not sure of I believe they’re involved in a romantic relationship or not. This is from Navani’s point of view, and will be tainted by that. The books prior to this have noted, in no uncertain terms, that Jasnah has repeatedly refused relationships with men in the past. At the moment I think Navani implying intimacy between them is a little misdirection, and I’d like to see other characters’ takes on the dynamic, and Jasnah’s own, if we get any POVs from her. But it’s definitely intriguing. I wonder what else Hoid has told her that’s made her trust him this much – Jasnah we know is not the most trusting individual.
I also find it intriguing/vaguely upsetting that Jasnah now goes nowhere alone and is always guarded. That’s a big change from her running around Roshar by herself when we first met her in TWOK. Whether it’s a symptom of her paranoia and Elhokar’s death, or if she’s merely doing it to appear queenly remains to be seen. I’m personally just absolutely delighted she’s finally appeared on-screen.
wow. i’m early
People see the two of them talking intimately and get ideas because neither Hoid nor Jasnah is going to tell the truth. Wit is Jasnah’s closest advisor because he’s 10,000 years old and knows more about everything than anyone else. He’s talking to her because she’s the only person who would take his knowledge about the shards seriously. Regardless of Jasnah’s sexual orientation, neither she nor Hoid has, implied they would pursue a relationship when more important things are happening. They’re allies. Hoid’s goal, at least in the Roshar system, is a shattered Odium and a dead Rayse. Jasnah probably agrees with that method.
I liked Navani’s description of the Mink’s reaction to seeing Dalinar and Shallan producing the map. Mink’s first tendancy was to escape and then shift to awe. I am not sure what to make of a general’s who first instinct when presented with something unexpected is to flee. I suppose it is a function of the guerilla warfare that Mink is used to fighting. At least I hope it is. This instinct of retreat may not serve Team Dalinar well in the Fused’s future surprise attack on Urithiru. Nevetheless, the Mink is an excellent strategist. His suggestion of a large assault on Emul is probably more likely to succeed than an attack on Kholinar. Although, my knowledge of battle tactics is limited to fantasy novels I read so I am by no means an expert. I do agree with Mink for one reason. I think Kholinar would be more heavily defended. First, it seems to be the center of the Fused operations. The fight on Emul is the second front. We the reader have the advantage of knowing the Fused’s ruling council is in Kholinar. The Fused use Skybreakers on the second front. They rely more on troops they do not trust than on the first front (Jar Keved/Alethkar front). Second, the basis of the troops on the Jar Keved/Alethkar front are made up of Alethi Singers. Those are more naturally war-like than Singers from other nations given the Alethi culture.
I do not know why, but I am surprised that Wit is taking more of an active role now. He is willing to serve Jasnah in a type of advisor role. I do not think he ever did that with Elhokar. Of course, that was before the Desolation. Still, Wit may have been on Roshar during other Desolations. But I doubt he was advising the Heralds and Honor during prior Desolations; no textual support – just a hunch. I wonder why now he wants to take an active role? I doubt it is just because Jasnah may have information (discovered when she was in Shadesmar) that Wit does not have. (Recall, Wit and Jasnah’s scene during the RoW epilogue.)
I wonder if Wit has provided Jasnah with some information about the material (aluminum?) that Navani discussed in the epigraph at the beginning of Chapter 17. I do not not find it coincidental that Brandon gave us that blurb for the epigraph and we see Wit on the page. Wit is of course that gave the Wall Guard this material in OB.
It took us 17 chapters but we finally learn what the Skybreakers have been up to in the past year (since the Battle of Thaylen City). I still find it unbelievable that all the Skybreakers (save Szeth) chose to fight for Odium. Statistically, a few at least would side with Team Honor. It also appears that Team Honor has more Dustbringers than Malata. Although, it appears that the Dustrbringers are not altogether reliable.
I am also glad that Dalinar’s inner circle does not trust Taravangian. Apparently, they are not as naïve as they first appeared.
Finally, we are starting to find people who will stand up to Dalinar. First the Mink and now Jasnah. I agree with Jasnah. Now is the time for social upheaval. It is easy for social upheaval when Alethi society has already been upended from their loss of their nation and exile to Urithiru. And the elimination of slavery/creation of a singular class could differentiate between the societal structure that permeates the Singers. I wonder what the common Alethi Singers will think if and when the learn of what Jasnah proposes. I am sure Venli and her cabal will make use of that knowledge; or, at least, they should make use of it for their own purposes.
Jasnah would have made an excellent Aes Sedai. In many ways, she is the perfect Aes Sedai. Outfacing calm with a strong inner core, but not too hard that she cannot adapt on the fly when the need arises. Knows how to think outside the box when necessary, but understands her surroundings enough to know that thinking outside the box is not always appropriate. Blunt but not afraid to take criticism. I can understand why Shallan had trouble sometimes being Jasnah’s ward.
Thanks for reading my musings,
AndrewHB
aka the musespren
I think I’m in love. Jasnah wanting to abolish slavery! Exactly the kind of revolutionary Roshar needs at this time of upheaval. And I find it interesting that she’s always with guards. As powerful and capable as she is, she understands the gravity of the position she’s in. The kind of changes she wants to bring will bring her ire from the Lighteyes, and then there’s the ever present threat of the Ghostbloods. Good that she’s taking precautions.
Also, now we know what Szeth is gonna do next, bring the punches to the Shin and fulfill his personal quest, for the fourth Ideal, eventually creating his own subsection of Skybreakers, possibly from Shin recruits. And then there’s Wit. Seems like he’s become a series regular, for the first time in the history of the sitcom Cosmere.
All in all, an excellent chapter.
Regarding Jasnah and Wit, since it seems like there’ll be some minor shipping wars on this, I’ll get my perspective in early…
We saw Jasnah and Wit interact at the end of WoR and it’s clear that they know each other quite well. But I didn’t get any sense that Jasnah was romantically interested in Wit and I didn’t get any sense of Wit being romantically interested in Jasnah. It’s not impossible that was wrong or that things have changed but I think Navani is perhaps not used to see unmarried men and women just being friends. I suspect Jasnah and Wit are aware of the rumours and perhaps don’t care and maybe see it as a useful smokescreen.
I don’t know why these two are so suspicious of Hoid, as if he’s another Odium. Although certainly his motives are unknown, they do not appear to be malevolent. In my opinion, just about anyone who holds a Shard is far more suspect, as they appear to be people like we know but are hopelessly influenced by an alien Intent. The longer they hold the Shard, the more alien they become, in a way even Adonalsium wasn’t as each of these Intents was integrated into one entity before.
Hoid has, by action, shown a consistent desire for the good. Since each character has a different relationship with goodness, how that impacts their personal fates is different, but there are far worse things than death, and the post-split of Adolnasium Cosmere shows that far more than the ordinary world.
@3 Gepeto:
This was included in the annotations from Brandon, but he plans on sets of perspectives per act, and only includes perspectives that propel the story forward. He hinted that Dalinar will have perspective chapters in a later act, but none in Book 1. We need Navani’s perspectives because of the threat from the spanreed and likely other things coming up later.
Well, SPOILERS:
We know that in the time between Books 5 and 6, Hoid goes back to Scadrial. So … if they’re lovers, at best there will be a long break in their relationship. Or they break up, or Jasnah dies in Book 5, or something else entirely. (Maybe he takes her with him to Scadrial!)
Typo, “Ihsar”. But mostly, I want to know if Team Honor has tried to contact Ishar/Tezim, and what his response was.
As mentioned a few chapters back, the Listeners did not have Soulcasters. One wonders if the Fused have few or no Soulcasters, either.
Reread? Is it available?
Wit once told Dalinar he would let Roshar be destroyed if it mean stopping Odium and Jasnah seems like she would see the logic in such a move and would be on board if it came to it so I get the pairing as coconspirators. I wonder if Jasnah is the one who recommended him for the Kings Wit job in the first place?
@5 not only him, but Jasnah will be leaving too
I find it interesting how people project so many of their own ideas in their thought of Jasnah.
While we have seen her on screen quite a bit, almost all of that has been from other people’s POV, and let’s face it, most people are skewed by their thought of Jasnah because they are intimidated.
We really know NOTHING of Jasnah except she is brilliant, ruthless, and completely willing to think outside of whatever box she is currently in.
I absolutely would not be surprised if she ended up as a villain by the end of the series. I’m not saying that is my prediction, or that I hope it would happen, but given what we actually know about her, anything is possible.
FWIW, I’m actually looking very forward to the Jasnah book that is currently planned for her backstory and flashbacks. While I have enjoyed all of these pre-release chapters so far, I am far less interested in Eshonai and Venli flashbacks and actually wish we were getting Jasnah this time (or Szeth, or Lift, but I am not currently that interested in Ash, Taln, or Renarin).
Good old Hoid
“Ash spent a lot of time in Shinovar; she knows they have the Honorblades, and that they have people who have practiced with those Blades to develop an understanding of all the Surgebinding on Roshar. “
It would be nice if the group had their own captive Shin that had practiced and has knowledge of all the honorblades ….. Oh wait … they do ….. Will be cool to see how that turns out …
I’m honestly surprised that the Alethi still had slaves. Dalinar is supposed to be the closest thing to Honor – there is no way to justify slaves! This is how you end up with more people like Moash.
As for Hoid, he’s doing what helps him best, but that doesn’t mean that it won’t help other people. We’ve only ever seen him help people, if only in little ways. (Kelsier doesn’t count since he was already “out of his comfort zone”). I agree completely with your post, @6 atarynnosaurus.
@13 James. I know this. I just think this chapter would have worked better from Dalinar’s point of view. I think the best viewpoint should be used at all times, regardless of the book planning which I find incredibly limiting since it allows some character to be over-written while removing potential from others. I never liked the idea some characters were not allowed to have a story because the ones we have read abundantly need to have an even larger one. I thought, this week, it was odd to read this chapter from Navani’s perspective. I didn’t feel how she viewed the situation added much nor was the most interesting perspective. She just isn’t who I want to read in a war meeting. She does not add enough.
On Jasnah: Jasnah being anti-slaves didn’t make much sense to me. She isn’t a character I would have thought would care, not that I disagree with her, I just don’t picture her being a ruler than cares whether there are slaves or not. Hence, to me, this was an oddball and slightly OOC. I agree with the motion, I just don’t see how it was Jasnah that pushed for it.
This book is going to be EPIC
I am exited to see Jasnah try and release all the slaves. It would be funny to see people reactions. I agree with Jasnah and she has obviously thought a lot about this. She doesn’t care what people think and that is AWSOME! Unlike Elhokar who was obsessed with being seen as a good king which isn’t bad…. it just didn’t work for the kingdom.
The singers were trying to get Dalinar and Jasnah out of Urithiru and Mink gave them that chance. I am almost exited for them to try and take over Urithiru because it has got to have to sweet action
I have a hard time imagining Hoid having romantic feelings for anyone. My gut says no truth to the rumors.
My best guess at Jasnah’s sexuality is that she’s gay. Brandon has said that he’s working up to writing a major character as gay.
Not sure about the plan regarding the Shin. As far as we are aware, the Honorblades grant you the surges, which is not the same thing as a bond with a spren. And I think that goes doubly for a Bondsmith. I can’t imagine the Honorblade replicating that.
Considering how Hoid gave Jasnah picture of the Heralds (and also their week-long trip in WOR), Hoid seems to be giving Jasnah a lot of extra information that isn’t being shared with anyone else (such as Dalinar or Navani). It would be interesting to see if anyone else eventually realises that Wit is a lot more than he seems. Especially since Kaladin had a similar realisation regarding Vasher very recently.
Also Ash mentioning Braize and Ashyn being different planets (and not other ‘realms’) so casually is very interesting. It definitely makes me wonder just how much they (both the Heralds and everyone else) know about the other planets, and just how much of a role the existence of other planets will play in the rest of ROW (especially since Scadrial has already been mentioned and Vasher has also given a lot of information to Kaladin so far as well). After all, it may currently be difficult/impossible for Radiants and Heralds to leave the Rosharan system, but Ashyn and Braize are located within the Rosharan system…
|| “Did that chapter have some unexpected developments, or what‽”
Oh. my. gosh. I started this chapter kinda bored and not so interested… and boy did that change pretty quickly! and then I got even more interested! and again! this chapter ended up being so great.
YAY YAY YAY Jasnah!! good for you! …and shame on you Dalinar! I expect more of this new and improved you.
I think that Hoid has a special liking to Jasnah as a scholar and intellectual who also has a sharp wit and wisdom at times, and (like said at the end of WoR) she knew/knows some things that he doesn’t. And she likes him close since she respects him and his knowledge and advice. And that’s the foundation of their relationship. But, of course, people will ship as people do. And we don’t really know one way or the other is there’s more there. I guess we’ll find out when and if we do…but I’m not holding my breath. But I do hope, like Lyndsey worried, that Hoid isn’t just using Jasnah for his own schemes, and she’s aware enough to be wary of him.
Awww, Hoid knew the Heralds when they were sane and honorable and heroes (and perhaps even interacted and had relationships with them personally)… and he now sees them like this… of course he treats them with reverence and care.
Yay, Heralds! Sad, Heralds.
|| L: I love Ash. I hope we get a lot more information on her when we eventually get Taln’s backstory book in the back five.
@Lindsey, Of note: as planned, we’re actually getting Ash’s own book (8) before we get Taln’s (9)!
Thank the Heralds (nope, clearly not their crazy faces) Almighty (nope, he dead) God Beyond (yeah, that one’s safe) for The Mink!!
@12 all we know about Hoid is that while his motivations are aligned with the Alethi, he’ll help them. He told Dalinar straight up though that if Roshar burning served his purposes he’d see it done. Just because he has so far appeared to be helpful to all of our various protagonists doesn’t mean he always will be. We really don’t know enough about what he’s after, other than his seemingly very personal grudge against Rayse.
@14 They did try to contact him in Oathbringer, when they still didn’t know he was a Herald, and got a ranting reply along the lines of “how dare you question me, etc.” Presumably his stance hasn’t changed much. What’s curious is why at various times Ash and Nale have both seemed to imply he’s actually the most stable of them. Are they just not able to see he’s gone mad, or is his whole god king business just an act, and if so, to what end?
I wonder if wit is taking more of an active roll because he was unaware that bonding a spren would tie him down to Roshar.
is there anything special about wits sword? It’s always mentioned and makes me think it’s more of a foil/epee instead of a broadsword.
Is it magic? Or invested at all?
@21 Jasnah pushing for freed slaves makes complete sense to me, and I think it’s perfectly in character for her. Her moral code, as she defines it here, is based on “the most good for the most people”. We saw this in Kharbranth with her execution of the violent thieves, we’ve seen it in her arguments to return the Heralds to Damnation again.
I think it’s easy to characterise Jasnah as “above” the common people or that she views other as “lesser” than her and not of notice but I don’t think that’s the case at all. She chided Shallan strongly for calling Taravangian “dull” as he was less intelligent, her execution of the thieves in Kharbranth was meant to protect common people, such as the “helpless barmaid” she speaks of at the time.
Don’t forget, also, the common parshmen, at least in Alethkar, were riled to battle because they had been enslaved and were, rightfully, furious. There is a pragmatic reason for freeing human slaves so they don’t end up in a similar pickle with their own people.
And on a personal level, Jasnah has made comments alluding to this before. She’s nervous about telling Shallan about the betrothal she proposed between her and Adolin “because of the restriction of freedom implicit in a marriage.” She finds it strange that Shallan isn’t upset at all at the idea of “being beholden to another.” Her essays on feminism, also, argue that women should have the freedom in society to choose their own role. Jasnah is a very firm believer in personal freedom and its importance. This may or may not have to do with her being imprisoned as a child. But if she feels so strongly about the “restriction of freedom” implied by something as common as MARRIAGE, it’s really not a huge stretch to believe she’d argue for abolishing slavery.
I share some of Dalinar’s concerns about abolishing slavery. Parshmen slaves were subject to chattel slavery, which is the least morally justifiable version of slavery. However, to the best of my knowledge, there are no former parshmen being held as slaves.
However, there are also those who have been enslaved as punishment for crimes. Our primary exposure to that sort of slavery was Bridge Four, which was nearly as bad as the parshmen slavery, but Sadeas’ bridge crews were also noted to be the worst among all of the Highprinces. Does an end to slavery mean an end to their punishment? Are those who were enslaved to pay off debts considered to have repaid those debts in whole? What punishments replace slavery to address these problems?
It’s easy for us in the modern day to note that slavery is a terrible evil, one which took a civil war in America to abolish, but the Reconstruction era wasn’t taking place in the middle of an apocalyptic war for survival. I don’t know if Jasnah is fully taking into account the lack of stability that such a change is likely to cause. She’s a very smart person, but her strong will rivals Dalinar’s will and she almost certainly thinks the same as he does – that things would be easier if everyone thought as she did. She’s just less likely to state it out loud, and I don’t know whether she appreciates the extent to which people are willing to be commanded rather than convinced.
@20, Keyblazing:
Honor himself did nothing to end slavery while alive. His largest remaining fragment, the Stormfather, seems to see nothing wrong with it. I’m with @Gepeto, I don’t see why Jasnah of all the people in the world is suddenly ending the practice, even if to a 21st Century American it might seem obviously right. You can’t blame slavery for Moash, a relatively prosperous darkeyes who was never a slave. Moash’s problem was aristocracy combined with tyranny.
Speaking of Gepeto …
@21, Gepeto:
You seem to want answers. This is the very beginning of the book. This is where we get questions. Answers come much later.
Navani is the only choice. She doesn’t know Jasnah’s secrets, which make a Jasnah POV impossible. She’s also able to give a useful outside view of Dalinar’s self-delusion, and an outside view of Dalinar in general, showing both that he isn’t as perfect as his internal POV might suggest, and that he is honestly trying to do better.
It’s aluminum. Notice how we’re told about the “silvery” hilt, just after the epigraph tells us about the silvery metal the Fused use against Radiants.
@28 I noticed that about Wit’s sword as well. We also know that Hoid can’t hurt people, so him carrying a weapon seems strange. Dalinar, I think, thought it simply “decorative” in the past, but it’s mentioned too often. I think Nightblood’s sheath is described similarly, “silvery” metal. My personal theory is that it’s aluminium. He was able to get whole sheets of it for Azure and the Soulcasters in Kholinar after all.
Hoid’s role in Stormlight has always been more active than in other books. He seems to consider Odium the most dangerous Shard, and inserted himself into a prominent position within the Alethi court. He’s also now a Radiant. I think he just sees this as the place he needs to be.
@AndrewHB
Now that you mention it i am seeing Aes Sedai vibes from Jasnah. It kinda makes me wonder how she’d get along with Moraine. Would they be buxom buddies or would they rub? Anyway, Jasnah does not disappoint when we finally see her. Not a Dalinar puppet? Check. Calm, commanding and queenly? Check. Impeccably dressed despite not caring overmuch about social convention? Check. And she is going to free the Alethi slaves which, while a potential issue with the Lighteyes, will be a great boon to the coalition since none of the other members engage in the practice save Jah Kaved, and they are enemy anyway.
@Gepeto
I agree with the point of view as written, disagree that Dalinar would have been a better choice. While I too would like another tour of our Bondsmiths brain you gotta admit he’s not the most perceptive person in the Cosmere. Plus he’s distracted by wanting to March on his homeland. There’s a lot of info floating around in this chapter, I want the most perceptive person to report on it.
In other news:
I saw that I wasn’t the only one who winced at reading Dalinar’s tyrant grumbling. That guy is the last one you want going on a rampage even now.
It’s good that they are at least aware of Taravanginan’s duplicity. At least Dalinar learned that lesson about being too trusting. There was some indication of this earlier with them not hanging out anymore but I wasn’t sure that had progressed to suspecting that he had switched sides.
I’ll check back later.
By the way, why are people assuming Hoid’s sword is aluminum when it could be a Shardblade? We know he bonded a spren and he could have reached an Ideal that would allow for the Blade form. After all, that order’s Ideals are atypical.
We don’t get the POV of any Radiants in this chapter, but even if we go over the ones in the room: Jasnah would be willing to keep it a secret, Shallan would probably be willing to keep it a secret, and Dalinar’s spren isn’t the sort to volunteer that a Cryptic is hanging out near the King’s Wit.
wadethan @5
We have to leave some of the connections for you to make!
No, to be honest, I’d fully intended to make that point, but somehow it slipped my mind at the critical moment. It’s very much worth noting, too. The Fused (so far as we know) haven’t even done anything to influence the situation, other than existing and pushing warfare. Yet here we are, with Jasnah planning to go along to the Big Push Battle (wherever they end up going). Of course Dalinar will go, even if they get the Mink to go, and poof! There are the two most advanced Radiants out of the Tower. Chilling, isn’t it?
Father V @12
If you’re referring to the read-along writers, I can tell you why we’re so suspicious. Hoid has unknown motives; every time he appears in a book, he looks like he might be on the side of good, but it’s not entirely clear. He flat-out told Dalinar that he’d step aside and watch Roshar burn if it would help him accomplish his own goals. He’s collecting Investiture in any form he can from every world he can reach, and he doesn’t mind leaving other people in the lurch if he gets what he came for. Overall, while he generally seems to be ready to help the “good guys” when it’s convenient, it’s very clear that his own ultimate motive outweighs everything else, and he’ll cheerfully throw them all – good and bad alike – under the bus to achieve his own ends. And we don’t know what “his own ends” entails. Even if he intends to do what’s best “for the greater good,” we don’t have the confidence in his omniscience that would make us believe his goal and methods are actually what is best. So, no. We may like Hoid, but that doesn’t mean we trust him.
Carl @14 – Thanks, I’ll fix the typo. About Soulcasting, while the Fused may or may not have Soulcaster-fabrials, they certainly have a brand of Fused who can use the Surge of Transformation. If they know about the material, they can probably Soulcast it.
Re: Dawnshard, it goes into gamma in a few hours, and will be released in ebook within the next week. We probably won’t discuss it by itself until after RoW releases, but then we’ll turn to that. It’s nice and short – only about 50K words…. ;)
James @34 – We’ve seen Wit wearing that sword since the beginning of TWoK. Even if we hadn’t though, if he had a Shardblade, why would he always keep it manifested and in a sheath at his side? That’s not how Shardblades work, generally speaking.
@34
wit had his sword before he bonded the spren. It’s described a handful of times
@@@@@ 30 James
What’s easier though – keeping slaves that can potentially revolt at any time for their freedom so that they don’t die helpless or freeing them so that they’ll join you to keep their freedom and survive. They are already in the midst of a huge change – Radiants, no parshmen slaves, Fused – what does one more change matter. Lastly, let’s say that the war ends, they just go back to being slaves like nothing happened? They have nothing to lose.
@@@@@ 31 Carl
Yes and no. The Stormfather is a spren so he doesn’t really have a concept of that. We don’t know what exactly Honor’s deal was before he died. Dalinar should though, from both a moral as well as a practical standpoint. Kaladin and Bridge Four were literally slaves. Imagine how many more potential Radiants are out there? On the moral side, are our heroes supposed to keep slaves?
As for Jasnah, well as others have said – she’s smart and ruthless. They already have to fight the Skybreakers, why would you want more humans fighting against you, which they would if the Fused guaranteed their freedom. Sure they might be slaves again, but would that be any different if nothing changed?
Moash was in Bridge Four, which is close enough. And if you can end up as bitter as Moash as well off as he was, what makes you think the standard slave wouldn’t be? Moash only got his chance because he was lucky enough to end up with Kaladin.
Regarding Hoid’s side sword, Brandon has both RAFO’d questions about wether it’s invested in any way, and on a different occasion straight up said it is not invested but has sentimental value to him. You can see these if you search “Hoid’s sword” on the Coppermind WOB search. It’s curious that he RAFOs questions about it at a date after he did the personalization where he says it’s not invested. Probably just him forgetting what he has an hasn’t answered in the past, so I’m leaning towards there not being anything magical about his sword.
https://wob.coppermind.net/events/35/#e2505
https://wob.coppermind.net/events/39/#e398
Yay Jasnah!!! I’m very pleased by this development.
And I like having Navani’s POV. We’ve already had a lot of Dalinar in the past three books, and she knows him well enough that her perspective gives us a good sense of what he’s thinking anyway. I also like seeing her views on other characters and ideas, like the Mink, Jasnah, and Wit.
The Mink is very perceptive and a valuable ally.
@35: Regarding Dawnshard being available next week, does that only apply to Kickstarter backers, or will it be up for sale as an e-book as well? I’m really looking forward to it.
First appearance of Jasnah. and she didn’t disappoint.
Thought I had: Wit knows the Heralds from the past. Shouldn’t they know him? Are they being quiet about it? Does their insanity inhibit their memory of him? Do they honestly think it can’t be the same person, that he couldn’t have lived that long, despite their own immortality? Remember, he made a point of not being seen by a certain Fused so he wouldn’t be recognized. Why don’t the Heralds recognize him?
My crazy theory on Wit/Hoid is this: He was supposed to take up the shard that Odium now holds and didn’t. Rayse took his place, Hoid realizes that was a huge mistake, and it is his personal mission to fix that mistake.
Either that or he was in cahoots with Adolnasium to eventually reunite the shards into one.
@39 katherinemw
Brandon stated on a recent Facebook update post: “Backers should get their ebook copy, DRM free, in multiple formats very soon. Once we confirm they have it, we’ll put it up on the Ebook websites for sale, so you can grab a copy if you didn’t do the kickstarter. We anticipate doing this before Rhythm of War comes out.”
Here’s the link: https://www.facebook.com/BrandSanderson/posts/10157491275660009
Finally, Jasnah made her appearance and she did so with a bang! She is completely right, too, both from moral standpoint and pragmatically. As to her relationship with Hoid, she clearly knows that he is an immortal worldhopper and as such, a precious source of information. I mean, he gave Shallan to understand in OB that he was truly ancient and not from around there, but she was too overwhelmed by her own problems and the events to really dig into what it meant. Jasnah, to whom Hoid told secrets about the origins of Rosharan humans, the Recreance and the Heralds (and also drew their portraits for) surely wouldn’t have missed the implications. As for Hoid, he clearly thinks that in this place and time it is critically important to bolster the side opposing Odium. Their close cooperation does look odd to the uninitiated and gives rise to rumors, which are wide off the mark, IMHO.
I really hope that we get more Jasnah as seen through other PoVs in RoW, like we did in WoK. Her on-screen presence in WoR and OB was far too brief! Oh, and thankfully she finally behaves sensibly re: bodyguards! It never made a lick of sense that she didn’t in the past, ditto the rest of the Kholins. It is an implausible wonder that they survived for as long as they did, really.
Was Navani sensing the Stormfather through Dalinar there for a moment? Or is there something to the old theory that Cusicesh is a fragment of the Sibling? Is she feeling all these odd things because she is in the early stages of bonding, or is she becoming Dalinar’s squire? Now that we know that the Bondsmiths can have them.
The Shin have advanced knowledge of the surge-binding powers? Wouldn’t someone think of their resident Shin, who used to carry a honorblade, please?! Argh! I know that Sanderson is saving it for book 5, but it kinda makes the Kholins look like idiots that they didn’t immediately think to grill Szeth about everything he knows. Ditto didn’t they question him about Nale?! Don’t they know that Nale joined Odium due to Ishar’s “guidance”? On the bright side, the Skybreakers betrayal doesn’t seem as devastating as it could have been. Maybe their heart isn’t really in it.
Mink looks to be highly competent, as well as entertaining, here is to hoping that he isn’t somehow compromised. It appears that ironically T won’t have to do anything at all to get Dalinar and Jasnah away from Urithiru.
It also looks like Shallan’s and Adolin’s mission to Shadesmar may be about more than just the honorspren, since all the Orders are growing only slowly. Which I wonder about – the Cryptics, the Cultivationspren and possibly the Truthwatcher spren seemed quite game to bond, so what’s the holdup with them? Dalinar really needs to show that vision where Honor foresaw the destruction of Roshar in case of Odium’s victory to more people, starting with recalcitrant Dustrbringers. D
And the last, but not least – Shalash. I like her, but did the first female Herald tto appear on stage have to be so aggressively incurious and clueless? At least, this confirms my earlier thought that she couldn’t have known about Taln’s abandonment and whatever was done to shift the Oathpact onto him in advance, and she probably is still ignorant of the details. Also, this supports my impression that Ishar was the most important Herald. Though I really hope that Battar and Pailiah, at least, had more interest in and understanding of the esoteric science that allowed Ishar to do everything he did.
given that Szeth isnt volunteering info, but knows so much when asked, i wonder how deep into the mission to Shin it will be before we discover that he can probably just answer all of dalinar’s questions about bondsmith powers himself?
In regards to how Dalinar will interact with other Radiants to enhance their powers:
Dalinar + Renarin + Adolin = restored Mya
Renarin is able to envision the “perfected” version of Mya and Dalinar can draw on the three realms to reunite her fractured parts. Adolin has a partial bond to her and would need to say the first two ideals in the process and this would restore her (it would be a powerful scene considering the Edgedancer words).
I imagine this will work for anyone who has a partial bond to a spren and that this is why Renarin is going to turn out to be so darn important. The Stormfather, seeing that spren can be restored, will allow them to try with the Sibling. I imagine that shardbearers will scratch their heads when they get a message from Dalinar ordering them to start talking to their swords.
I think if Jasnah is asexual she’s probably aromantic as well. The asexual thought has always been based on her seemingly being uninterested in relationships at all, so honestly I think if she is interested in Wit, then she isn’t asexual. That said, I doubt she is interested in Wit in that way. An unmarried women suddenly spending a lot of time alone whispering with an unmarried man? Of course the Alethi being Alethi are gonna assume something’s going on. But more likely its just that Jasnah is using Wit as a resource, because unlike all the other characters she isn’t going to let Wit get away with just giving vague clues when he clearly knows more about what’s going on.
Also I freaking love Jasnah, and I love that Brandon has the atheist character be the one to decide to end slavery on moral grounds.
Initial Observations
Jasnah! There’s our Queen. Finally. Of course it makes sense that she would be the monarch to propose ending slavery in Alethkar. It’s also not surprising that she encounter resistance, even from family members or from leaders like Dalinar who are seen as “enlightened”. Go Queen Jasnah. Also, I cracked up when the text mentions that her Queen’s Wit is still Hoid. Clearly, there trip from Alethkar to the Shattered Plains in between books 2 and 3 led to an exchange of information and establishment of mutual respect (at least to a certain degree). I’m also confident that she trusts Hoid just enough, and not too much.
The Mink: This was another good way for Brandon to get the reader to respect the Mink’s capabilities as a general, as well as his overall perceptiveness. The Mink saw right through the BS, and assessed the coalition’s concerns with Taravangian immediately. He also continues to call Dalinar out, which is definitely needed. Dalinar needs someone like the Mink, who he views as near his military and strategic level, that can and will counter his questionable tactical decisions. I look forward to seeing the Mink challenge Dalinar, just like Adolin, Jasnah and Navani will in non-war-related ways.
Wit: Glad to see him on screen again, but I am curious as to what his goal is here. The Rosharans and he may have a common enemy, but that doesn’t really mean he’s on their side. I hope he doesn’t screw over Jasnah too bad, but I wouldn’t be surprised if/when he does screw her over.
More Radiant Orders discussed! I am (reluctantly) accepting that almost all of the Skybreakers did do what Nale said he would have them do; there was no mention of a split into multiple factions of Skybreakers. I get that this is how Brandon is telling the story, but it just seems problematic to me that Nale continued on the same course of action after he likely suffered from Jezrien’s death. And it seems even more problematic that those Skybreakers who didn’t swear Oaths to follow Nale still decided to… follow Nale. Oh, and I loved the quick comment about the Dustbringers being unpredictable.
Another good chapter! We’re only 3 weeks away folks!
@40 “My crazy theory on Wit/Hoid is this: He was supposed to take up the shard that Odium now holds and didn’t. Rayse took his place, Hoid realizes that was a huge mistake, and it is his personal mission to fix that mistake.”
Wow, that’s a really good theory.
Does anyone else get strong Mat vibes off of The Mink?
I am really enjoying Navani’s POV’s. And WIT! I’m so glad he didn’t cut and run. I’m extremely anxious to know what’s his stake in all this.
Just a quick thought. Has anyone wondered if the Parshendi spy is actually the Mink? That wacko Parshendi mad scientist claimed that their agent can get the tower to be empty for their invasion and surely they suspect that Taravangian must be considered an unreliable source. The Mink here is telling them specifically to attack at a location and it looks like even Jasnah is going to go… I’m just wondering if this could be a double-cross w/ Revenge scenario for what the Blackthorn did to the Mink’s people… Just a theory and maybe there’s a number of things that prove that wrong.
Lyndsey. I took Dalinar’s comment that he wished everybody would see the world as he did as tongue and cheek. He knows that it is not possible for everybody to see the world as he views it. To me this is akin to me saying I wish ai could stop time so I could get more done without loosing time. I know my statement is an impossibility. It is just me being frustrated. I do not honestly believe that is something that could happen. Likewise, I do not think we need to worry about this Dalinar becoming a tyrant. I think Dalinar passed this test in OB when he rejected Odium’s offer for Odium to remove Dalinar’s pain.
I agree with Lyndsey and Alice that we do not know the true scope of Hoid and Jasnah’s interactions. However, I think Navani is wrong in her belief that Hoid and Jasnah are sleeping together. Or at least wrong to believes the rumors; but I take from Navani’s thoughts that she is inclined to believe such rumors. From what we have seen so far in this series, both Hoid and Jasnah are not each other’s type. I think their “relationship” is that Jasnah realizes that Hoid is not of this world and some stuff he tells her, neither wants anyone else knowing. In my opinion, Hoid is a shadow advisor to Jasnah. He is seen by others, but the scope of his knowledge is only known to Jasnah.
It is too bad this is not a Jasnah PoV. However, I guess that would provide the reader with too much information and clues that Brandon does not want us to know as of this moment.
Alice. I do not think it is unrealistic that Ash is not very helpful. She has already decided Roshar is finished. In her opinion, there is no benefit to help Team Dalinar. Especially when such help may result in the reinstatement of the Oathpact or somehow her ending up on Braize to be tortured by the Fused. Ash is mentally exhausted. I believe she would welcome a full and complete death. It is too bad that Jasnah was not able to get out of Ash when Taln become lucid again. If Dalinar wanted to have Taln lucid to question him, then he should open Honor’s Perpendicularity in Taln’s presence. That seemed to snap Taln out of his current cationic state. I believe Taln would still be willing to help team Dalinar. Maybe between now and the end of Book 5, Dalinar will find some reason to open up Honor’s Perpendicularity in Taln’s vicinity and Dalinar can see Taln become lucid again.
Lyndsey. I do not think Book 5 (or the rest of Book 4) will explore the backstory between Taln and Ash. I think that will be saved for Books 6-10.
Thanks for reading my musings.
AndrewHB
aka the musespren
At the bit where they zoomed in the map, I started giggling. “They have Google Maps!”
I thought Wit was supposed to take up Endowment. But he and Rayse were briefly buddies before the Shattering IIRC.
Count me as one who believes Jasnah was the only logical choice to be the one who ends Alethi slavery practices. Does she not have a habit of defying social convention, both professionally with her one woman equal rights movement and personally with her proclaimed atheism? I believe what’s happening is that her outward coldness makes readers perceive that she’d care nothing for slavery, either for or against. Her track record would say differently but I guess it’s hard to get past her advocating genocide as an option for dealing with the Singers.
James @30
I suppose Alethi will just have to find another way to punish criminal behavior other than exploiting them for their labor their entire lives. I mean other countries manage to take care of their undesirables without resorting to slavery, right?? But seriously, as a descendant of slaves I could honestly care less about the consequences of freed slaves on Alethi society. They built that house, they can live in it when it catches fire. Of course Dalinar would be concerned, he was never a slave. Ask Kaladin how he feels about Jasnah’s proposal. Anyway, regardless of how everything shakes out all the societies of Roshar will change as a result of the Desolation anyway. Considering how difficult slavery is to eradicate once a society employs such measures it would be best to work it so that when the new system rises from the ashes slavery just doesn’t get included.
@40: Shalash recognized Hoid’s art style at the end of OB, so presumably she knows the man himself. Wit probably slipped into their room at some point to have a Talk with them. Even if he didn’t specifically ask them not to mention him, Ash seems worse at volunteering infob than even Szeth.
Ps. Autocorrect tried to change “Hoid’s” to “God’s” . Does it know something we don’t? ;)
@49 I agree. Wouldn’t it be convincing if you were “fighting” the singers to cover up you being a spy. That would help explain how he stood so long… I’m not sure though.. It would also explain how he forgave Dalinar so quickly.
Just a thought..
Well, well–Jasnaham Lincoln freeing the slaves.
I approve; although, I am already annoyed by how Jasnah/Kaladin shippers are going to use it to claim that Kaladin will love Jasnah for freeing the slaves, and it hasn’t even happened yet.
@49 I worry The Mink is a plant as well. After all, we can’t have Team Radiant rush off to liberate Kohlinar only to discover that most of the enemy army has left. Oh no! Where are they? Back to Urithiru!
Re Szeth: I think he would be willing to teach other Radiants if they asked. Keep in mind the leadership still does not trust him. And, conveniently, the Sword makes people sick, uncomfortable. They aren’t able to tolerate being near him very long.
@35, Wetlandernw:
SPOILER FOR THE EMPEROR’S SOUL
I immediately think of Shai, who the Fool (another of Hoid’s nametitles) recruited to steal the Moon Scepter, then betrayed and very nearly got killed.
@37, Keyblazing:
No, actually most of them were not slaves. Kaladin was. Moash, Teft, and Sigzil (to name three) were not.
@42, Isilel:
It looked to me as if Odium destroyed the visions halfway through Oathbringer. The scene where the whole vision fell apart while Dalinar desperately struggled to save Venli’s life? In my mental model, Honor built a structure in the Cognitive Realm. When it seemed as if it might be damaging to his efforts, Odium then destroyed it.
El Cochino @40. I believe that Adonalsium’s initial plan involved an eventual consolidation of the Shards at some future point. I also believe Hoid was involved in said initial plan. However, neither contemplated that some of the Shards would be splintered, thus making it (almost?) impossible to but all the Shards together. I think one of Hoid’s end goals is to make sure that no other Shards are splintered. Stopping Odium at this moment is crucial to that plan.
Thanks for reading my musings.
AndrewHB
aka the musespren
I am actually heartened that Dalinar accepts his own limitations and weaknesses. Most people want to believe that their solution is the best solution. The enlightened leader is the one that accepts the fact that this is not the wises way to govern. The ability to accept counsel, even grudgingly, is what leadership is about. Those willing to show a reluctant acquiescence are the ones that make a difference. Strong enough to believe in themselves and not be threated by others, but wise enough to know that they need others to achieve success.
In this regard, Dalinar and Jasnah are poised, hopefully, to feed off each others strengths and really make a difference in Roshar’s future.
And why is the Shin so different from the others?
Navani is the best POV for the chapter. Jasnah knows too much. Dalinar isn’t very observant about non-military matters. Navani is good at observing people.
Most people see the war as a slave rebellion by the former parshmen. It makes sense that Jasnah worries that the human slaves will join the rebellion if they aren’t freed. The lighteyes may dislike the idea, but there are probably more slaves than lighteyes. It makes both practical and moral sense to make sure the human slaves see her as an ally instead of an enemy. They don’t need a civil war in addition to fighting the Fused.
The metal can’t be aluminum. Aluminum is white, the metal was described as silvery. The only important silvery metal would be titanium. Aluminum would be worthless as a weapon, it can’t hold an edge and deforms easily. Unfortunately it seems Brandon has fallen into the false belief that titanium is the strongest metal. It isn’t. It’s weaker than steel. It’s used because of its high strength to weight ratio. Compared to steels it has 80% of the strength but 60% of the weight. Higher strength to weight ratio, but still weaker than steel. It’s also brittle and shears clean off. Steel is great because it’s malable and ductile. It deforms well before it fails. It can also be hardened if you don’t want it to deform.
There’s your short metalurgy lesson, aluminum is white; titanium silver.
In the real world, this is known as “never let a crisis go to waste,” and it’s a disgustingly cynical political ploy that gets a lot of bad policies pushed through by whoever happens to be in power at the time that would never be accepted during saner times. The fact that Jasnah is doing it to accomplish a good goal for once doesn’t make it right.
I’ll be frank, I’ve never liked Jasnah. Not since the first book, when her reaction to a spree of street crime was to go on a vigilante murder spree and try to make a philosophical object lesson out of it for her apprentice, and then later, upon presenting the results of her research into the Voidbringers to Shallan, her attitude was one of disgust and contempt for her ancestors having refrained from committing genocide against them.
From the intro of Words of Radiance where she tried to hire an assassin to keep an eye on the queen (and, as was pointed out, no one hires an assassin just to keep an eye on someone,) to her pulling a Shardblade on Wit, to suggesting they solve the Desolation by finding and murdering a Herald or three, to her just-barely-aborted assassination attempt on her own brother, this is someone whose go-to solution to every problem has consistently been violence and murder. Every Radiant apparently has some sort of mental issue as part and parcel of the whole deal, and it appears that hers is psychopathy. I was really worried when she got named Queen of Alethkar, and this chapter isn’t helping assuage my worries any!
@62 Aluminum has been shown in the cosmere to have all sorts of nullifying powers on investiture and is definitely a silvery metal. It might be white as aluminum sulfate, aluminum oxide or other compounds, but as the metal itself, its pretty silvery.
I don’t think titanium has made an appearance in the Cosmere thusfar.
As for all the Jasnah/Hoid speculation, I agree with what appears to be the prevailing opinion that romance between them is a red herring. My take, though, is something that I don’t think anyone has mentioned so far, but which seemed obvious to me from the start: Hoid is a lightweaver now, and Jasnah is the only one in on the secret.
Someone with his background and personality could likely have jumped up to level 5 almost immediately, which makes him the most powerful Radiant around, with the possible exception of Nale. (And when you factor in the other magics he has at his disposal, he probably outclasses Nale easily in the power levels department!) For whatever reason, he’s chosen to let Jasnah know, but they aren’t sharing it with anyone else. She’s counseling with him because he’s powerful and has a bunch of useful advice to give.
Anyone else think this is most likely what’s going on?
While I still personally hope that Jasnah ends up being Brandon’s first LGBT major character (excuse my little gay heart for projecting, I’ve been a Jasnah fangirl from her first appearance), I admit I’m very curious about whatever’s happening with Hoid. I don’t think they’re necessarily romantic – if anything, this may be a Navani-perspective assumption, coupled with the rumours…after all, I haven’t met a mother yet who doesn’t analyse her daughter’s close connections and weigh them up as possible suitors, lol! But I would be very interested in the idea of, say, Hoid preparing Jasnah to become a Worldhopper. The image of Jasnah Kholin as an ancient, ageless Worldhopper is very, very appealing to me, especially as she’s already so formidable. A girl can dream…!
@mason Wheeler;
Jasnah aborted her assassination attempt on her cousin, not her brother. Elhokar she never threatened that we see (unless my memory is totally wrong).
Silver is actually white, ironically enough.
Brandon has said that “aluminum” weapons and whatnot in the Cosmere are actually an aluminum alloy. As you say, pure aluminum is very soft and not all that useful as a tool.
Something that hasn’t come up yet, but I expect will eventually: aluminum is pretty flammable. It isn’t easy to set a block of aluminum on fire, but once you light an aluminum wire or sheet it burns like crazy.
@63 I mean the U.S. finally ended slavery during the Civil War, so it is sound logic that during these times of upheaval is when you can get the most done, both good and bad. Ending slavery is definitely for the good.
I think I’m about 70% in the camp that Jasnah is Asexual/Aromantic, and isn’t interested in Hoid like that, but that WOULD be a really interesting couple.
@63 Mason Wheeler
I respect your opinion and your right to have it. But on the same token, I look forward to Rhythm of War and subsequent books proving you wrong. Some thought Jasnah would come into conflict with Kaladin over slavery, and this scene shows otherwise. Either way, I look forward to enjoying the book and I hope you do as well!
@carl
You’re right. My mistake. Still, the broader point remains.
“I seek the line of action that does the most possible good for the most people. This is in keeping with my moral philosophy.”
An interesting philosophical stance that could be very easily twisted, especially since Jasnah has proven how morally flexible she is in pursuing this path. I think you could make the argument that this is also Taravangian’s stance, just that he believes the battle against Odium is hopeless.
@65 oh yeah! Good spot re-Hoid being a Level 5 Radiant! That could possibly be who the Singers were referring to.
@71 Tom
Just a bit of clarification, you can perscribe to aspects of a philosphical thought without being subsumed by it. She said that:
“I seek the action that does the most possible good for the most people”
Which can be taken as utilitarianism. However right after that she said:
“This is in keeping with my moral philosophy”
So, Jasnah has formed her own moral philosophy. Doing the most possible good for the most people keeps in line with this moral philosophy. But that does not mean that is:
1. her entire more philosophy
2. that is the only way it can function, and it can be tricked like a robot’s coding
Jasnah is a human, thinking, feeling, being. I believe there are many whole steps of nuance to her moral philosophy.
What do we do if we force them out of Azir, and they agree to cease hostilities? Would we give up Alethkar, if it meant ending the war?”
Do You agree, that this is a foreshadowing, not as a compromise with Odium, but as a comprimise with Venli and her future singers? At least for the end of the first Five.
@63 I always said, that Jasnah was the right woman for the post. She has a Macchiavellist streak, but she needs it, if not the Alethi warlords would eat her alive. So she has not only good ideas, she also has the politcal savviness to see them through. I also think, it is meant as a sign to the singers to alleviate their fears, that the humans want to enslave them again (though as pointed out above I think that line will come to nought.)
The whole world-building seems to indicate, that the singers have the right to their own lands. For the humans it is a political anathema, recognizing would blow up Dalnar’s coalition at once. So the real politics solution would be, that they keep the lands that they have without any recognition as a line of truce (and a source of conflict for the back Five).
I should add, that I only came across the series shortly before OB, so I lack years of fandom and an emotional Alethi passport.
Concerning Karbranth I have my own crackpot theory. I do not think, that she believed the dumbness Taravangian showed to Shallan and us as the public. So the executions were meant as a warning to big T: Don’t mess with me! Only neither Shallan nor we as readers were cleared for this kind of information about T, for us the revelation was meant for Seth’s visit.
@mason
There’s a line from another book series that I love that may be the crux of your stated dislike of Jasnah Kholin.
“I thought you said you were just a desk jockey!”
“Yeah, but it’s a Barayaran desk.”
That’s a line from the Vorkosigan Saga frequently played for laughs but shows the underlying nature of a militaristic society and its members. They are hyper aggressive to those who don’t share the same cultural context. And Jasnah, for all her ideals and principles, is Alethi down to her toenails. It’s probably jarring to see a proported philosopher and historian take those sort of brute force solutions but she’s a bit measured for an Alethi. I mean look at her father. Storms, look at Uncle Dalinar, a man who never met a face he wouldn’t put a Shardblade through. Even our beloved bridgeboy is more likely than not to spear his way through problems than to talk it out. Like or hate Jasnah as you please, but to me it seems like you could extend your dislike of her character to most Alethi we’ve seen on screen to a greater or lesser degree based on your stated reasons.
As far as the distaste for the tactic, it’s just a tool to initiate change and thus is only as good as the person employing it. For every Final Solution there is a Civil Rights Act. I’d say the times in history that tactic has been used for good or ill basically balances out over the long run. In your eyes it’s only bad because Jasnah is the one implementing it.
I hope Jasnah changes your mind in future but not every character works for everyone. No worries.
Jasnah has, at moments, reminded me of Taravangian on a high-intelligence day (such as when she recommended genocide as a policy option that needed to be seriously considered if certain people would just stop being so squeamish about it, or when she killed two people to prove a point).
But this is not one of those times.
The people of Alethkar, who Jasnah rules – at any rate, the ones who are in fact under her rulership and not that of Odium – currently have little to know overlap with the physical territory of Alethkar. She needs those people to self-identify as Alethi. She also needs the humans currently within Alethkar to have something at stake in overthrowing the Fused. And most Alethi are not lighteyes. Freeing the slaves the slaves and other darkeyes that they have something at stake. If your choice is between being a slave to humans or a slave to Fused, why would you care which? And it also shows the darkeyes that she’s willing to make huge social reforms, giving them more cause to be loyal to her rule as well.
The brightlords, in contrast, have comparatively little to offer – most of them already showed themselves to be disloyal and selfish in the previous books, pursuing their own prominence rather than the good of the kingdoms. They no longer have their estates, which are under Fused control – and Jasnah is their best/only chance of ever regaining them. So there’s little incentive or need to cater to them, and their weakness makes this an ideal time to implement social reforms
I was very happy to finally see The Mink do a mini freak out with the map. I so expecting it and felt jolted when last week’s chapter ended before it happened.
I noticed that Jashna told Shallan to follow along with Adolin when sending the The Mink off. I wonder if that was to keep Shallan from the coming discussion?
I think that Jashna and Wit/Hoid are BFs and have a similar goal for now. I’m guessing they are tight and give each other a person of equal intelligence to plan with.The fact they are both unmarried and together much of the time sets the gossips off. And I’d guess none of the rumor mongers has even a clue as to what Hoid really is. That small touch of him serving her some wine is the sort of thing that would be noticed. Besides, once Jashna gives the crown to Gavinor she would be quite free to world hop once they solve the “Radiants Restricted to Roshar Restraint”.
I thought Hoid was actually offered one of the shards and refused it.
Could it also be possible that the Fused are using Raycium? A god-metal would be resistant to soulcasting, would block shardblades (which are basically honor-metal), and it would be limited in quantity so only the few hundred (few thousand?) Fused would get the blades.
@75, Evil Monkey:
Thing is, we’re not looking at Uncle Dalinar here; we’re looking at The Blackthorn. Cultivation’s little gambit with him effectively made the two into two wildly different people, which was her stated objective in doing so. She wanted to grow Dalinar into someone other than the brutal warlord he had been, so that Odium’s attempt to subvert him would fail, and it worked! Knowing what we learned in Oathbringer, I consider The Blackthorn and modern-day Dalinar two distinct people, at least as different as Veil and Shallan if not more so, who happen to share a backstory. And as for “never met a face he wouldn’t put a Shardblade through,” that’s simply not true even for The Blackthorn. Look at his flashback chapters. He spared the young lordling’s life even though it was politically a bad idea to do so. He chased down the archer that shot him and, instead of killing him, recruited the guy!
As for Kaladin, I honestly have no idea what you’re talking about here. Granted I don’t have the books in front of me right now, but offhand I can’t recall a single time when he chose to “spear his way through problems rather than talk it out” when the problem in question was not either enslaving him or actively trying to kill him. Can you?
@80 Mason Wheeler
Totally respect you have your personal outlook and I wish you luck with it.
For myself, Dalinar has always been Dalinar, both the good and the bad. All the pruning Cultivation did was give him a chance to see if his better attributes would rise more to the service than his negative. She said it herself, she could have just been making a weapon for Odium. Which is why the fact that he did rise to the occasion speaks volumes to his character to me. But he had just as much chance and opportunity to “go dark”. He just chose not to.
Hoid and Jasnah are very clearly breaking social norms which are definitely almost prudish by modern standards so there would be rumors.
If there is an emotional connection I’d be very worried for Jasnah.
I do like the idea that King’s Wit (or Queen’s wit) also exists to challenge them intellectually.
How many people does Jasnah really have that will challenger her and how many of those can make intellectual arguments?
The thing about Dalinar’s “pruning” is that while he didn’t remember Evi or the Rift, he still remembered everything else about his time as a warlord and conqueror, and about things like near-killing and permanently maiming people in sparring matches. He didn’t forget being the Blackthorn, he just forgot the singleworst thing the Blackthorn ever did.
He changed because he chose to, not out of some kind of total amnesia. The loss of the memory of the Rift was just so that he could make that choicewithout collapsing into an utter drunken mess.
@63 Mason
For clarification, do you dislike the way Jasnah was written, or do you mean that your personal ethical code clashes with hers so you dislike her? I feel there’s distinction to be made, as one is a criticism and one is an astute observation of her character.
Regardless, I personally love Jasnah as a character. In my opinion she is the best written character in the cosmere. She is unique character with a somewhat skewed moral code (though a consistent one) that doesn’t end up being a caricature of her traits. For example, she is not a vanilla atheist, the classic edgy morally grey character, or the stuffy scholar who cares only for knowledge and has no practical experience. In fact, I’d argue she’s a type of agnostic, not atheist since she acknowledges the possibility of a powerful being (a deity) but says that because of they state of the world they must have flaws and are therefore not worthy of worship. Basically, I think she’s a very deep and well written character. However, as a person, I think she borders on despicable becuase of how brutal her moral code is. As someone else mentioned, she is very Alethi even though she’s sometimes presented in juxtaposition to Alethi norms.
TL;DR Love her as a character, but hate her as a person.
@83
From my impression he forgot more than just the Rift. I’m pretty sure most everything we saw in the flashbacks of Oathbringer was (at least in part) something he’d forgotten. I think he remembered that he’d done terrible things but only in the since of “Oh I was a warlord and war is bloody, thus I have a fearsome reputation because I was a menace on the battlefield.” I doubt he remembered much of the merciless slaughtering of innocents.
Forgetting these things put him in the mental state where he could more easily choose to change.
Jasnah should have a long talk with Vasher, another stern, irritable, sword-wielding, death-dealing scholar with tremendous arcane power.
In my mind neither is an atheist, as I have posted in previous reread comments. Atheists don’t have a belief in gods. Jasnah and Vasher accept that beings who could be called “gods” exist, they just don’t worship them. I’d call Jasnah an apatheist and Vasher a misotheist. (Siddhartha Gautama was also an apatheist.)
Jasnah has only killed people “on screen” in two situations:
1)In the middle of a battle
2)When they were attacking her
She backed down from killing Aesudan, Renarin, and the Heralds. (She has them in her power now, note.)
Why are people so willing to condemn Jasnah while saying nothing about her ward, who has killed both her parents, while Jasnah refused to kill her relatives? For that matter, Vasher murdered his wife, and later killed her brother, yet everyone condemns Jasnah?
The way it keeps referring to Taln as broken… I think he is going to become Radiant. Nale is in many ways the most stable of the Heralds and is also Radiant. He has had something fill in the cracks and help keep him up.
Maybe not all the Heralds but I think Taln will bond a spren,.
Thoughts on the chapter:
– Here Ash drew zero distinction between early surgebinders (pre-Nohadon WOK), the original Knights Radiant, and modern Radiants. She only compared the current Radiants to the Heralds. Obviously the Honorblades do not function exactly like the Nahel. How have the surges changed since Honor’s death?
– The way Stormlight is attracted to Dalinar echoes how [Mistborn Era 1] the mists were attracted to Vin. Closest thing to a vessel? the power wants to taken up by someone.
– As a Canadian, having learned a little more about the American Civil War and Lincoln’s motivations to free the slaves. It was not only Lincoln believed slavery was wrong. Lincoln’s emancipation proclamation was a wartime measure to deal with runaway slaves, encourage slaves to flee and join the Union forces, as well as strip the plantations of their workforce bankrupting the Confederacy. The discussion we’ve seen surrounding Jasnah’s proposal to abolish slavery seems focused more on the timing and politics than the moral, political, economic or military arguments. I would like to see an argument for the military benefit to abolition in the context of the war against the Singers and the Fused.
– Jasnah was hyper aware of the threat assassins pose even before Gavilar’s assassination. So her current guards in no way surprise me. But are they Elsecaller squires? or Windrunners? Does Jasnah have squires?
– Has Wit shared with Jasnah the presence of other worldhoppers she can interview? eg. Zahel who could provide more information about Nightblood the most dangerous weapon in the cosmere (that we know of). From Wit’s perspective he may do it simply to annoy Zahel.
Responses to others:
Based on OB part 5, Nale implies that most of the Skybreakers swear their third Ideal of Dedication to the herald. Where as Szeth had the choice in the moment to make a different oath. The Skybreakers who’ve sworn their third ideal, we’re not given the same choice as Szeth. I swear to follow the will of Dalinar Kholin.
@24 Austin. Kaladin learned an awful lot about the nature of his surges by observing Szeth’s use of Jezrien’s Honorblade in WOR. Szeth also says he’s had training with all the surges or Honorblades (except Taln and Nale I imagine). It seems the Shin have developed exercises to help train the skills necessary for surgebinding (ice skating for abrasion). Perhaps Szeth has shared these in the past year? At the very least he is a wealth of information about surgebinding.
@34 James. I wouldn’t want to be the Cryptic stuck in Bladeform 20 hours a day 5 days a week.
@35 Wetlandernw and @58 Carl. I thought of Shai as well, but betraying one person is NOT the same thing as a betrayal that imperils all of Roshar. [Emperor’s Soul] When Hoid the Imperial Fool stole the Moon scepter I assume he wasn’t risking the entire planet and all its people (we still don’t know what the Moon Scepter does, but I imagine due to the Rose Empire’s response the Arbiters thought of it as a royal artifact without magical power or they would have noticed the powerless forgery). And while Wit said he’d watch the world burn in my opinion it would be his last options. As @73 scath said, Wit seems a little utilitarian as does Jasnah, but not nearly as extreme as Taravangian, in that he will sacrifice a few (Roshar) to save many (Cosmere). Which frankly is a dangerous combination as they can lead each other to justify some extreme measures. That being said it doesn’t mean Hoid wouldn’t take a better option – in this case working with Jasnah and Team Honor to save Roshar.
What I can’t figure out is why Wit now holds this prominent position attending meetings with Jasnah. I thought Hoid’s fear of attracting Odium and the Fused’s attention would keep him in the shadows. I doubt he’s actually worried about the Ghostbloods or 17th Shard. But how is the Diagram and the Fused not curious about Wit. They certainly gather intel on every player. The only Diagram reference is misinterpreted by Adrotagia to be Mraize:
Additionally there was no mention of Wit in Ch14 where Raboniel plans to infiltrate the tower and get the Elsecaller and Bondsmith away.
@37 Keyblazing and @58 Carl – From what I can piece together Honor’s protracted death finally occurred after the Recreance. Ba-Ado-Mishram was only imprisoned during False Desolation (which occurred well after the Last Desolation). Slaveform did not exist before the False Desolation and Jasnah believes this to be the conflict when the Recreance occurred. (also Dovcanti’s epic written c.500 years after the False Desolation + c.1500 years before modern day. Which places the False Desolation c.2000 years ago vs the c.4500 of the Last Desolation SA prelude). Math and specific years aside, what I’m trying to say is that Honor was not exactly in a position to take a stance against slavery when the Parshmen were enslaved. He might have been against chattel slavery, or he may not. The little we know of the Shin and their their beliefs of warriors, it is not only limited to punishment. All Shin warriors have stones, however their rules probably differ from Truthless. The subjugation of the warrior class is not entirely dissimilar to more common forms of slavery. I believe that Shin traditions due to their isolation have remained unchanged compared to the drastic upheval in much of the East brought about by the rise of Vorinism and the Hierocracy. (zero evidence for this! only my hope for answers in Shinovar. which Sanderson will promptly crush in book five).
@68 Tom. Machiavelli’s The Prince argued for any drastic unpopular changes to be made early in a regime in order to then rule peacefully.
@65 Mason Wheeler and @72 kupes. Although it is certainly possible I don’t think Wit is Level 5 radiant yet. For one he is in no rush. Two Mraize states that Rosharan investiture ties people to the Rosharan system which would be extremely detrimental to Hoid’s worldhopping. I don’t know if its scalar, but I imagine the more heavily invested you are things get worse. So a level 5 Radiant may find it impossible to leave, where as it may still be possible for a Level 1 (with current knowledge). Additionally unlike other Orders I have no idea how Lightweavers would kill their Cryptics since their oaths are truths. Its not like everyone can lie to themselves as frequently Shallan does. How did the Recreance happen? (If Hoid wanted to intentionally break his oaths like how Kaladin weakened the Nahel bond with Syl).
@74 knuti. What I understand of human nature, when the Alethi singers learn that Queen Jasnah has freed human slaves, that might make them MORE worried about re-enslavement by the humans. Its not like the economic need for a labour force has disappeared because the True Desolation has begun.
@75 Evil Monkey – great point defending Jasnah’s very Alethi militaristic response to many situations. Alethi are always faster to pick up a weapon compared to other nations. (thinking of Azir, Reshi and Horneater traditions of war which always seem to avoid bloodshed whenever possible) I seem to forget that about her, since Navani doesn’t share that. I seem to fall back on the intellectual means anti-violence stereotype.
@87 Mitch Brandon has stated that Nale’s spren is “wacky” and partially responsible for his Radiant murder spree across Roshar that has lasted since the Recreance. So I would not consider him the most stable herald, especially since Nale considers Ishar to be the most stable. The God-Priest Tezim’s response to Dalinar in OB does not seem to be evidence for Ishar’s sanity.
EDIT : black on black text for spoilers
@mason
Dalinar may be a different person now (debatable but plausible) but he was very much the Blackthorn as Jasnah grew up. She grew up in a world where a war criminal was honored constantly, with a tyrant whom she very much loved for a father. She was born to be bloody minded. She simply serves it with intellect. Look at how horrified Shallan is by her actions despite her on screen body count being much higher.
As for Kaladin, off the top of my head? 4 on 1 duel, the entire B4 sequence, Elkohar rescue, Roshone punch, palace raid, the scene at the Oathgates before the battle of Thaylen City, the Amaram fight, the Amaram reveal. His first instinct is to fight, then talk, then heal the pieces left over. This was ikely trained into him by years of soldiery, and I’m not even saying the responses were incorrect. But take Shallan, who isn’t Alethi, and her response to dangerous situations where lives are at stake. Her first step is never violence, rather it’s some form of trickery or deflection. During Jasnah’s philosophy exercise she doesn’t even think about her Shardblade, even though just flashing it would have probably sent the thieves running without a fight.
As an aro-ace person who is desperate for a canon ace, aro, or aro-ace Jasnah, I figure I might as well share my thoughts on that, with the disclaimer that I’m likely self-projecting at least a little
I think there’s strong support for Jasnah being ace, aro, or both in the text, and I don’t believe that she’s actually in a relationship with Wit/Hoid (romantically or sexually). Given her situation, I imagine those kinds of rumors would spread basically no matter who she spends her time with, and the fact that she, a known troublemaker in Alethi politics, is spending time with her Wit, a more general troublemaker, makes the relationship look obvious to the people around her, even if its not actually happening. That said, ace and aro people can still be in sexual and romantic relationships respectively, as asexuality and aromantcism are a spectrum (like most orientations), and someone who’s both might not necessarily feel the same way about both types of relationships (I, for example, am sex-neutral, uninterested but not necessarily disinterested, and am romance-repulsed, completely disinterested in the idea itself). That said, given what we’ve seen of Hoid, I highly doubt that they’d be dating if she was aro, I imagine she’s picked up on enough of his mysterious points to know that he’s not necessarily someone she can trust personally, even if she can trust him as an advisor in this war. As for a sexual, non-romantic relationship, that one is a bit easier to see (for me) regardless of her orientation (unless, of course, she’s sex-repulsed), though in this instance I can see Hoid pushing against it as much as Jasnah. As for the idea that Hoid might be manipulating her through a relationship, that’s also distinctly possible, though I doubt Hoid would specifically pursue it if that were the case, I imagine he’d instead sieze the opportunity once its given.
With that out of the way, I loved this chapter! Another fascinating potential plot thread, with the heroes seeking contact with Shinovar to learn more about their powers and how to use them. Maybe this could allow the back half of the series to better show off how someone truly skilled can use them? I’d love to see Lift ice-skating on stone and carpet, or more art created with a Dusbringer or Skybreaker’s Surge of Division. Dalinar worrying about Alethkar being important also reminds me a bit of how Vin’s instincts being so sharp was the result of interference from Ruin, especially in regards to the importance of the Atium (at least, I’m pretty sure that’s what was happening, if I interpreted things correctly), perhaps this is Odium pulling the same trick? Or maybe its Cultivation, since she’s also interacted with him? I could also be imagining that, since Ruin was influencing Vin with a hemalurgic spike, something he was specifically tied to, whereas Odium and Cultivation have merely appeared to Dalinar and used their magic on him, which may not give them the same level of connection to their target. Anyone with better knowledge of this kinda thing want to chime in? Would be super excited to be right, but I’d like not to get my hopes up if I’m forgetting something counter to my theory.
@mason Bit harsh there on Jasnah, and some definite hyperbole if not flat out incorrect accusations.
She tells Shallan her intentions behind killing the thieves in Kharbranth was to: make the city safer for common city-goers, many of whom have been murdered, and potentially raped by the thieves on their way home, and because she was afraid she had taken advantage of Taravangian’s hospitality and wanted to help him. She also tells Shallan that the city guard are deliberately ignoring the killers, have ignored Taravangian’s orders to deal with them, and are likely being bribed by the men. All other options bad been exhausted, and so she took matters into her own hands after being attacked by the men. Still questionable, but not as simple as “I took my ward on a murder field trip for the shits and giggles and tarted it up as philosophy.”
I also don’t remember disgust and contempt for the previous generations not killing all the parshmen. She noted that they didn’t just kill them, because they were still in a position to use and abuse them by enslaving them and breaking their minds instead. She doesn’t go “god if these dumbasses had only murdered them all we wouldn’t be in this mess”.
Yes, she makes use of assassins, but she’s definitely not alone, and she considers it distasteful/it’s not her go-to method of problem solving. Also…..She, uh, kind of had a point in wanting to keep an eye on Aeseudan, as it happened. She was right to be worried that she was too ambitious and power-hungry. Not saying she would have been justified in bumping her off, but she was trying to protect her brother and her family and her concerns were rooted in fact, not just ‘meh I don’t much like my sister-in-law let’s have her killed.’
Re: the Heralds: she does clarify that she wants to find them, discover whether or not the Oathpact is still viable and /ask them to see if any of them are willing to return to Damnation to buy them time/. She intended to ASK not track them down in a back-alley and murder them. Unlike others.
She also doesn’t use violence as her only solution to problems?? If she did she’d just have let Shallan die at the end of TWOK? Instead she saved her life and was intending to send her home? She mentions discussing options of dealing with Amaram with Dalinar after he publicly threatens and demeans her, which do not involve murder.
Also – the times we see her react with violence she is responding to violence/threat. She doesn’t escalate to it without it already being present. The thieves in Kharbranth were not just thieves, they were rapists and murderers, and directly attacked Jasnah ans Shallan. They’re in the middle of a war, and if they lose it will mean the extinction of humanity upon Roshar. Jasnah has studied this for YEARS she knows what will happen, what will be lost. What do you expect her to do???
Also dude please don’t throw around the word “psychopath”. It’s a genuine condition, and I don’t think Jasnah even comes close to fulfilling the criteria for it…
I don’t expect you to change your mind on Jasnah. And you can dislike her if you want. But as @75 EvilMonkey pointed out: literally everyone in these books has solved their problems with violence and murder. Jasnah doesn’t even make the top 10.
Did anyone else’s heart break a little bit reading about Navani’s wish that this is all a part of a greater plan even when everything is telling her it’s not? As someone who was religious as a child and young adult and slowly grew up to reject religion as sometimes beautiful but highly improbable, I truly and deeply felt for her in that moment.
@88, gabbyw:
Leaving aside everything else, presumably a Lightweaver could violate the First Oath, choosing weakness over strength or death over life.
@91, atarynnosaurus:
Note that Nale would probably have recruited her for the Skybreakers if he was there (and wasn’t about to kill her for being an Elsecaller). The situation is pretty close the one Szeth ran into when he was a Skybreaker squire, except that Szeth blamed the corrupt official at least as much as the actual criminals.
Jasnah is pretty brutal, but I think some of her actions are being judged a bit harshly. For example, her parshman genocide idea came before she understood the nature of their species. Her research led her to believe that the only two options for parshmen were mindless slave or monstrous Voidbringer. I doubt very much that she now supports the idea of wiping the species out entirely.
Honestly, it’s hard to say that the idea was wrong, at least for that original generation of parshmen. I don’t know what the most ethical course of action would be when you’ve accidentally turned an entire species into mindless drones, but it is definitely not breeding them for slave labor. Slaughtering every last one of them isn’t a good alternative, but that wouldn’t have been necessary anyway. They just had to take care of that mindless generation until they died, rather than breed them like farm animals.
@91 Atarynnosaurus:
Yeah, that’s pretty much exactly what she said. Here’s the exact quote, from chapter 74 of the first book. Feel the thick bitterness dripping from her words: “…but the legends lie about one thing,” Jasnah continued. “They claim we chased the Voidbringers off the face of Roshar or destroyed them. But that’s not how humans work. We don’t throw away something we can use.”
“That’s not how humans work.” The use of ‘othering’ language on a group she herself is a part of… that’s contempt, bitterness, and regret, about as plain as it gets.
Renarin.
I know it’s a genuine condition. I know what it means. And she looks precisely like the criteria for it. Specifically, she looks like what’s known as a pro-social psychopath. (As opposed to an antisocial psychopath such as The Joker.) That’s the charismatic type that often ends up running cults or Fortune 500 companies in our world, and apparently kingdoms in the world of Roshar.
@88 Gabbyw
Actually we do, from WOBs on the subject. Check the Coppermind article for details, but the TLDR version is that it’s a “Rosetta Stone” that shows how to achieve equivalent effects in various different Selish magic systems.
Any idea on what sword Wit had?
Long time lurker, first time poster…
I really enjoy Navani’s POV, I feel like I always learn so much. Then again I pretty much love all of it.
I do not see indications of a relationship between Hoid and Jasnah yet, just the musings of a curious mother; though anything is possible I suppose.
I was just wondering if anyone else thinks that Navani might bond the Sibling? She is so interested in Urithiru and its spren that I would not be surprised if she did.
@95
I read that Jasnah quote a bit differently from you it seems. I saw it as disappointment in human nature, bitter sure, but disappointment. Like of course humans see a chance at some free labor in the plight of the Parshendi and they jump on it with both feet. I didn’t follow that through to maybe humans should have just killed them all, but people interpret things differently.
Regarding Renarin, does the fact that she spares him despite not having a clear plan for him going forward not grant her some mitigation in your eyes or do you feel that was out of character for her? Just curious because I have rarely seen this level of hate for Jasnah in the Fandom. Not hating on your opinion, just asking. Also, you say Jasnah is a frightening and terrible choice to rule Alethkar and you’ve stated your reasons quite clearly. My question is, who do you believe would have been a better choice?
If I had to put money on it, I’d bet that Jasnah’s more likely to break Hoid’s heart than the other way around lol
Wild speculation time: In chapter 15, I almost said something about Zahel calling Wit an asshole, because he called him Wit, not Hoid or Dust, and that made me wonder if there’s some Identity buggery going on with Hoid’s various aliases actually being spiritually different (in which case, Zahel could be saying “‘Wit’ is the asshole persona”). Now, the logic there is flawed, but the suggestion in this chapter that Hoid’s malleable personality may by magical in nature has me giving the thought more consideration. I bet his spren would feel like the luckiest Cryptic in the Cosmere lol
Regarding Jasnah’s planned edict, I’m surprised no one has yet brought up how an entire order of the KR feel about slavery: the Willshapers hate slavery basically as a tenet of their order. While the Lightspren are currently anti-human in their sentiments, ending slavery would have to be a necessary — though likely not sufficient — condition to earn back their help. I think this will be most critical with Venli and Timbre when, presumably, Venli takes part in the raid on Urithiru.
@mason “Yeah, that’s pretty much exactly what she said. Here’s the exact quote, from chapter 74 of the first book. Feel the thick bitterness dripping from her words: “…but the legends lie about one thing,” Jasnah continued. “They claim we chased the Voidbringers off the face of Roshar or destroyed them. But that’s not how humans work. We don’t throw away something we can use.”
“That’s not how humans work.” The use of ‘othering’ language on a group she herself is a part of… that’s contempt, bitterness, and regret, about as plain as it gets.”
How…How is she othering? WHAT is she othering? The whole of humanity?? She makes a comment on the nature on the nature of the humanity, she uses the term “WE”, and somehow she’s othering? I also don’t read this as contemptuous, but the same as @99 EvilMonkey: disappointment in the nature of humanity. Humanity survived something that reduced them to the brink of extinction, had the chance to send the voidbringers away or destroy them (note: she offers 2 potential options here, not just ‘they should have slaughtered every last one of them) and instead they enslaved them and made them caretakers of their future children. I mean. I feel like some disappointment and regret is a valid emotion in this case, no????
Renarin.
A)- Renarin WAS a threat tho?? Like. He’s bonded a Voidspren. He’s having visions of the future which are from Odium. That’s threatening?
B)- Did you miss the bit where she didn’t hurt him (despite Renarin TELLING HER TO) but hugged him and told him they’d find a way to put things right!?
I know it’s a genuine condition. I know what it means. And she looks precisely like the criteria for it. Specifically, she looks like what’s known as a pro-social psychopath. (As opposed to an antisocial psychopath such as The Joker.) That’s the charismatic type that often ends up running cults or Fortune 500 companies in our world, and apparently kingdoms in the world of Roshar.
First of all, charismatically running a cult/a grand-scale manipulation to gain themselves power is….absolutely not the same thing as someone else (Shallan) suggesting you become queen to yet another someone else (Dalinar) who then offers the position to you. The person with the most legitimate claim to the throne as the previous king’s eldest child. Or do you think Jasnah charismatically manipulated a)- Gavilar into conceiving her and b)- her uncle and cousin into seeing her as a good option (and the only one left to them after they both refused the position and Gavinor is, uh, 5) into giving her a position of power.
Okay, okay, I’ll bite. Let’s do this. One of the key hallmarks of any type of psycopathy is lack of empathy/remorse. I’d very much like to see examples from your perspective of Jasnah lacking empathy and remorse.
Was it when she dedicated years of her life to research so she could prevent the apocalypse? Or her doing everything to protect her family from assassins despite them never knowing about it? Or when she camped outside Shallan’s hospital room for days after her suicide? Or when she offered Shallan an item of significance to her and offered her guidance on her religious path, despite the fact Jasnah herself is a dedicated aetheist? Or when she saved Shallan’s life after realising she’d stolen from her and betrayed her? Or when she took Shallan back and trained her as a Radiant after her betrayal? Or when, after she was nearly killed for the second time in a short period of time, trapped in Shadesmar, unable to return, in imminent, serious danger, she used her last bit of Stormlight and power to free the sailor’s on the Wind’s Pleasure rather than herself? Or when she returned to Urithiru and apologised to Shallan for getting assassinated because that must have been very distressing…FOR SHALLAN? Or when she realised Shallan was still hiding things and struggling with herself and so she offered to be an ear for Shallan to confide in? Or when she comforted Dalinar in one of his visions after he was denounced as a heretic? Or the entire POV chapter we get which is her strongly empathising with the Heralds and feeling their pain at being slowly driven mad and not being able to trust their own minds, how terrible that would be? Or how she deliberately makes space for Renarin in meetings, and makes a careful point of including him and speaking with him? How Jasnah was the one Renarin went to for comfort as a child when he was upset because Dalinar “didn’t seem to be able to feel love”? How she chooses love and empathy over logic and pragmatism when she saves Renarin’s life? How she supports him, and encourages him, tells him he’s a Radiant, and her cousin, and that she’ll find a way to help him?? How she’s spent her time as queen 1)- interviewing and trying to understand Taln and Ash rather than, uh, locking them in dark rooms or murdering them. 2)- lessening the horrendous and oppressive class divide between Lighteyes and Darkeyes. 3)- wants to abolish slavery. What an absolute fucking monster. Yes, you’re right, I can ABSOLUTELY see the lack of empathy required for Jasnah to be a psychopath, how did I miss it?
Also I just, I just need to take a moment here to acknowledge that you claim Jasnah is so ruthless, so devoid of empathy, and so quick to solve all of her problems with violence that you’ve armchair diagnosed her as a psychopath. But the evidence you use to defend Dalinar against accusations of the same is that 1)- he didn’t brutally, in cold blood, murder a sobbing seven year old child and 2)- he pressed a man into his army after decimating his home ‘because Gavilar said so’ because that man could be useful to him. I. Wow.
Dalinar brutally burns thousands of innocent men, women, and children, including his WIFE alive, but he’s cool in your estimation because that was “a different person”. Jasnah kills 4 rapists who attacked her and she’s a dangerous psychopath. That’s some fascinating logic right there, which frankly reeks of misogyny.
Long time lurker, first time poster.
@atarynnosaurus, well said! I’d just add that Jasnah’s self awareness and ability to admit her flaws (which we hear several times in her interactions with Shallan) would also be completely out of keeping with a psychopath mentality.
No surprise that Navani is speculating about a romance between Jasnah and Wit. She’s still aware of her own recent happy remarriage, as well as that of her nephew/stepson. And Jasnah is a queen, who will need heirs. Navani is struggling with a huge change in the foundations of her world, which includes religion, as previously discussed, and also this lays the groundwork for future question of hereditary monarchy.
Is anyone else surprised to learn that Ashyn is the Tranquiline Halls? That was what surprised me most this chapter.
@102 Wow! Personal attacks on my character because I have a different point of view? Let’s try and keep things civil and within the standards of the moderation policy, please!
You said:
What exactly does “send them away” off the face of the entire planet mean? Especially to someone who had dedicated her scholarly career to finding mundane truths beneath supernatural myths and who, as far as we know, had no concept of worldhopping at this point in time? That’s a euphemism on par with “push them into the sea” and everyone already knows exactly what it means: genocide.
And followed up with a long list of things she did for Shallan… but somehow missed the most significant one: she was the one who arranged the causal with Adolin. Jasnah saw potential in her, put a lot of effort into building her up, and put her in the perfect position to be the one to make that suggestion to Dalinar after having done so much to wrap the impressionable girl around her little finger… and somehow this should be regarded as evidence against gaining power by grand-scale manipulation? What in the world would evidence in favor look like, by your standard of evidence?!?
No, he didn’t bond a Voidspren. He bonded a Radiant spren that had been altered/infected/corrupted/whatever by an Unmade who may or may not be a traitor to Odium’s cause. And so far he has given us no evidence whatsoever to believe he is a threat.
My point wasn’t that she always follows through on murder as a resolution to any problem; it’s that that’s her go-to solution. It’s the first thing that comes to mind every time. It’s not just Renarin; look at what happened at the end of Words of Radiance. She’s startled by running into Hoid in an unexpected time and place, and what’s literally the first thing she does? Point a Shardblade at him. He wasn’t threatening her in any way; he just wasn’t supposed to be there in her sole judgment. It’s automatic, it’s instinctual for her. Simply because she’s got a formidable mind trained in rationality that’s able to overcome that instinct sometimes doesn’t change the fact that that’s her normal, her baseline response.
Keep in mind that it’s generally not considered legitimate self-defense if you deliberately induce someone to attack you just so you’ll have an excuse to kill them “in self-defense.” What kind of person would do something like that? (Oh, right, we already know exactly what kind. A psychopath!)
@103 Blorg
We already knew this from previous WOBs. Like a lot of the stuff Zahel recently explained to Kaladin, it’s been known and considered a settled fact in the fandom for years but this is the first time it’s been formalized in canon.
@@@@@ Mason
Look, I know that there’s no moving you off your position about having Jasnah, which IMO makes you take the most negative view of any of her actions. That’s fine of course, do you. But for every negative interpretation know that others see either a positive or at least a mitigating circumstance. For example, you say Jasnah’s go to reaction is murder. She isn’t the only one on that list. That list includes most Alethi Lighteyes and she’s a product of her culture, or did you not see the Alethi war council and their first suggestions?You bring up the philosophy lesson. I say other avenues were tried and failed. Plus the thieves and murderers didn’t have to try Jasnah and Shallan, or any other woman they victimized for that matter. That looks like blaming a victim (she was asking to be attacked) to me. Then you ascribe sinister type motives to her befriending and guiding her young ward even though there’s no evidence that her treatment of Shallan would lead to a throne, a throne she wouldn’t have been eligible for had Elkohar lived. She set up the casual to Adolin in part because she wanted a fellow Radiant close, but it was also to protect Shallan from her family’s enemies. She knows an apocalypse is coming, she knows she needs allies, she knew Shallan wasn’t ready for what was coming and did what she could to prepare her. I call that compassion and foresight. You call it manipulation. Then there’s Renarin. You say there was no evidence that he was a threat but her historical research into royal dynasties coupled with Renarin’s futures futuresight would be enough to raise suspicion. Add that to Ivory’s knowledge telling her his spren is corrupted and that’s ample reason to put removal of threat on the table. She wants to free slaves, you question her methods. Hoid is the most suspicious character in the Cosmere and he just happens to be out in the middle of nowhere when she pops out of Shadesmar. If I were her I’d draw on him too. Maybe you believe she was wrong in her handling of Amaram as well, even though she tried to disengage from him multiple times and only threatened him with violence when he was about to summon his Shardblade, and even afterwards pushed for semi-banishment instead of assassination. Not to put words in your mouth but judging from the rebuttals you have made to my posts and others I suppose you’d say she provoked and prodded him into his actions so she could kill him (if that isn’t what you would have said I apologize). And as for the Parshendi problem, she finds slavery reprehensible in any form so she’s naturally disgusted with humanity’s solution post-Recreance. So she doesn’t have a better idea. Apparently neither did anyone else.
You hate Jasnah, and that’s cool. Thing is, your portrayal of her makes of her more of a badass than those that actually love her. In your eyes she’s a person with massive amounts of intellect, gamesmanship and charisma, with a hair trigger temper and the ability to mass murder anyone, either directly or by proxy. She’s cold and ruthless and yet can manipulate a poor country girl with carefully calculated compassion. She’s basically Machiavelli with magic. I guess it’s a testament to Brandon’s writing that you hate a character so much that it borders on love.
I loved that this chapter was from Navani’s PoV – I really don’t see what Dalinar’s PoV could have brought to it, apart from seeing his internal reaction to Mink’s needling, I guess? But personally, I hope that Dalinar will eventually snap back at Mink, because while Mink’s burns are valid in general sense re: Dalinar’s conqueror past, they don’t actually apply to the border war with Herdaz, unless we have been grossly misinformed in OB. In _that_ war, _Herdazians_ were the agressors, not Dalinar. They were the ones who decided to push the new Alethi regime, because they interpreted Gavilar stopping his conquest at the Alethi borders as him going soft and ripe for the plucking. They were also the ones who engaged themselves in a civil war after being defeated by Dalinar. No significant territories changed hands during the border conflict either, so while I could see that if Mink had his son early, that son could have been a soldier and died in battle with the Alethi, I struggle to envision how Mink could blame Dalinar for the death of his wife. Herdazians didn’t have female soldiers, IIRC.
Anyway, I suspect that the Fused would want to get themselves rid of the Herdazians and the Horneaters – like the Listeners, they are probably the descendants of “traitors” – i.e. Singers who didn’t side with Odium and went so far as to interbreed with humans. I also think that Herdazians might have some lore about the Fused that motivated them to fight particularly hard against the conquest by the same. I could see as well how Herdazians and Horneaters might not qualify as “human” in the perception of the Reachers and therefore be valid Willshaper candidates even if spren don’t change their position on refusal to bond humans.
Concerning Jasnah’s intended aboltion of slavery – it makes perfect logical and pragmatic sense. First of all, human slaves were not particularly numerous or important to economy before this Desolation, but now rich and powerful would be interested in replacing the lost parshmen with human slaves. Which is going to create strife in the exiled nation and provide Odium with a ready-made audience to exploit, as well as rob the humans in the occupied territories of motivation for escape or struggle against the Fused regime. Not to mention that slaves who become Radiants would have little reason to support a government that allowed their enslavement.
And second, through Kaladin’s PoV we know that the rules concerning slaves weren’t really being followed anyway and human slavery in Alethkar was well on it’s way to turning into chattel slavery. Also, as far as we know, Azish nations didn’t have human slavery and neither did Kharabranth, so it would be inaccurate to say that the “coalition” would be riled up by this.
Third, “social justice” and the Roman slavery as a benign example are being mentioned a lot here and elsewehere. Well, the Romans abolished debt slavery for the citizens in 4 th centuryB.C.! And, in fact, one of treasured privileges of Roman citizenship henceforth was legal protection from enslavement for any reason, including criminal punishment. So, one doesn’t need to be “woke”, have modern sensibilities or whatever to recognize that enslavement of own people is corrosive to national cohesion. Nor did Roman slavery for the majority of slaves differ from chattel slavery of antibellum South, except for the racial component. Roman slaves normally weren’t payed wages by their owners – but some were allowed to hire themselves out to earn money. For the valuable skilled and educated slaves – yes, there were drastic differences with American slavery, not the least being the fact that it could be a path to the precious Roman citizenship, if freed. And yes, valued slaves of powerful people enjoyed power and respect themselves. But they always were just the tip of the iceberg.
And BTW, due to large landowners grabbing land from citizen farmers in the aftermath of the many civil wars of the late Republic and the transition to the slave-worked plantation agriculture Italy ceased being able to comfortably supply itself with grain and had to supply itself with imports from North Africa.
This discussion seems to be going a little bit off the rails, so from here on out, we’d ask you to please keep your interactions civil, agree to disagree once you’ve expressed your point of view or dissenting opinion, and stay on topic if you want to take part in the conversation. The full guidelines, as always, can be found here.
@106 EvilMonkey
And that’s a big part of the problem: I don’t like “badasses.” I find them… well… bad, just as the name states. All too often the term is used to mean “this person is a horrible thug, but they carry out their thuggery with style, so we’re willing to look past that.” And that’s just never been something that sits well with me. It is not in keeping with my moral philosophy.
@62 Aluminum is silvery-white. If you buff aluminum it looks almost exactly like silver.
@67 Aluminum is non-combustible and its melting temperature is about 660 °C, though powder is explosive. You aren’t going to set a wire or sheet of it on fire, it will not do anything until it melts.
Old aluminum wiring causes fires because it’s not a very good conductor of electricity, and as a result the surface areas of said wire become extremely hot, setting surrounding materials on fire, at choke points (bends in the wire, etc.).
Honestly intentions can be read into a character however anyone wishes.
Hell, despite all the information across all four books that Amaram just used the desolation that he knew would result in countless deaths as a means to gain power and prestige and had no genuine concern for people’s souls, there are still people out there that see him as a tragic villain that was only trying to help. We have gotten confirmation from multiple characters, and even the author himself. But some people still see him in this positive light.
Same stands for Jasnah. Doesn’t matter how many good things she does, there will always be a way to cast it in a negative light.
So like I said before, I respect everyone’s opinion, and right to have it. I just look forward to future books proving Jasnah to be the deep, caring, nuanced character I have read, just as it has proved Amaram to be the power hungry, delusional, manipulator I have read.
Guess at the end of the day we will all RAFO?
@110 Technically aluminum very much is combustible; just not at low temperatures. But powder it up and mix it with iron oxide powder and you get thermite, which is used in heavy-duty welding operations because it burns incredibly hot. (And, due to the high ignition temperature, it’s quite stable and difficult to set off accidentally. But once you get it going, it’s very hard to stop!)
@109
And that’s a big part of the problem: I don’t like “badasses.” I find them… well… bad, just as the name states. All too often the term is used to mean “this person is a horrible thug, but they carry out their thuggery with style, so we’re willing to look past that.” And that’s just never been something that sits well with me. It is not in keeping with my moral philosophy.
But Dalinar is cool because….he…Uh? I’m genuinely lost here. I do not understand how your moral philosophy condemns Jasnah but excuses Dalinar. It doesn’t make any sense.
(All too often the term is used to mean “this person is a horrible thug, but they carry out their thuggery with style, so we’re willing to look past that.”)
I don’t think this is inherently true. “Badass” is used way more often in the context of “damn that’s super cool”
I also agree that the statement about human nature regarding the parshmen was more a thing of regret and not “let’s go murder!”
but hey good chapter :)
I saw another echo of Abraham Lincoln in Jasnah’s “I will listen to the highprinces’ concerns about details, but this IS going to happen” — that was the same general thing that Lincoln said to his Cabinet about the draft of the Emancipation Proclamation. (Several of them made useful suggestions, most notably Seward advising him to wait till after a Union battlefield victory so it wouldn’t look like a cry of desperation.) Going to be interesting to see what happens with this, too.
@113
OK, we’ve discussed Jasnah already. Let’s take a look at Dalinar’s actions at Rathalas.
The first time, he went in to conquer a city in Alethkar, which was basically his full-time job at this point. His brother was the would-be king, and Dalinar was the general executing his king’s will. Gavilar’s visions were telling him to “unite them” and he was doing so in the classic Alethi way: through conquest. He took the city as ordered, and then went out of his way to show mercy to the survivors at every opportunity, including disobeying his brother’s direct order to kill the heir as per political expediency.
A decade later said heir, in a massive display of ingratitude, starts stirring Rathalas up to rebellion against the fledgling kingdom of Alethkar, threatening to destabilize the entire region. Gavilar attempts to resolve the situation diplomatically but is rebuffed by the rebels for twelve years before finally sending in Dalinar and Sadeas to put down the revolt.
Upon arrival, Dalinar once again showed mercy to the treacherous Tanalan Jr., and once again was betrayed by him, luring Dalinar into an ambush and an assassination attempt. It failed.
Then Evi adds one further betrayal into the equation, sneaking in to attempt to negotiate with the rebels even though she knew it was against Dalinar’s wishes, she had no authority to do so, and she was fully aware of Tanalan Jr’s treacherous history. She trusted him anyway and… well… the parable of the Farmer and the Viper exists for a reason. He betrayed her trust and locked her in a city he had every reason to believe was about to come under attack. Tanalan Jr. then sends out messengers to attempt to demand concessions in return for the hostage he’s taken. At this point, Dalinar, badly injured, under the influence of the Thrill, and completely unaware of his wife’s betrayal, decides he’s had enough of this rebellious city that’s spent the past 12 years, and particularly the past couple days, making it abundantly clear that they have no intention of ever treating with the kingdom in good faith, and has the messengers shot before even listening to what they have to say.
Here we see two very significant distinctions between Dalinar’s actions and Jasnah’s. First, Dalinar was on the battlefield, attempting to put down a rebellion that was threatening to erupt into an all-out civil war. Jasnah was never at war with Kharbranth street thugs, with Hoid, with Renarin, or with the Heralds. (Nale notwithstanding.) Second, while Jasnah instinctively reaches for violence and murder as her go-to solution, Dalinar initiated violence here only under extreme provocation spanning years and multiple acts of treachery and betrayal.
Dalinar follows up on this by ordering the city razed. Certainly not his proudest moment, but… by that point what alternative did they leave him that would not result in the unraveling of the kingdom that he and Gavilar had spent decades building and a bloody civil war that would have caused even more deaths? They were given every opportunity to settle things peacefully and refused to do so at every turn, despite knowing full well exactly what was at stake.
When Tanalan Jr. finally confronts Dalinar with the truth about his wife’s treachery, he taunts Dalinar over what had happened, a loathsome character to the bitter end. But Dalinar is immediately struck by remorse and tries to figure out any way to save her, before realizing that it’s too late. The responsibility for Evi’s death clearly rests far more heavily upon the heads of Tanalan Jr. and Evi herself than it does on Dalinar’s, but he’s still absolutely crushed by what he’s unwittingly had a part in, and it leaves him a broken man. This is the other major contrast with Jasnah: when Shallan expresses horror at her murder spree, she immediately starts to justify herself without displaying the slightest hint of remorse, and then turns further justifying her behavior into a homework assignment for Shallan!
How does my moral philosophy condemn Jasnah but not Dalinar? Very different actions under very different circumstances, that’s how.
There’s a massive debate over how horrible Jasnah is, because she wants to….checks notes….end slavery?
@115 Just to be clear, freeing the slaves is definitely a good idea, for all the reasons that have been presented here. But doing a bad thing for a good reason is still doing a bad thing, and violating long-established social norms in order to do so is a doubly bad idea, especially in politics, as it legitimizes your opponents using the same tactics against you when the opportunity arises. When I see Jasnah openly embracing a philosophy of “never let a crisis go to waste” and trying to use history as an excuse for doing so, it’s a bit horrifying because the history of this tactic in the real world is that it backfires pretty hard on you just about every time.
Journey Before Destination. If Jasnah goes through with this plan, she’s violated her first oath to her spren. In pursuit of an indisputably noble destination, true, but it still makes her an oathbreaker, and that’s kind of a big deal to the Radiants.
“I seek the line of action that does the most possible good for the most people. This is in keeping with my moral philosophy.”
Anyone get the feeling this might be one of the Elsecaller oaths?
@118 Mason Wheeler
I disagree, but hey to each their own. I look forward to reading the rest of Stormlight and finding out how Jasnah turns out!
@@@@@ Mason Wheeler
Are we reading the same story?! That is a very charitable description of Dalinar’s past. I can’t believe that he was so wronged. If only there was a way for Dalinar not to have marched his armies to Rathalas as conquerors. If only Gavilar hadn’t ordered Dalinar to kill little Talanan’s father, leaving him to seek revenge. If only Talanan hadn’t been so upset that his city and family were burning to comfort Dalinar, in the midst of being strangled. There is a always a choice. Otherwise Dalinar would have been able to sleep at night.
As for the slavery? Long established social norms?! This is slavery, lol. Excluding real-world examples, we have a very clear example in Mistborn Era 1! What do you think about Kelsier? The skaa in Mistborn were slaves for a millennia. Kelsier is more “never let a crisis go to waste” than Jasnah is. (I don’t agree with your characterization of Jasnah, but that’s a separate issue.)
@116 Mason –
“A decade later said heir, in a massive display of ingratitude,”
I don’t see how a boy whose father was murdered – for not wanting to bend a knee to someone who he justifiably saw had no right to be king beyond killing everyone who opposed him for the position – should feel so much gratitude to the killers for not murdering him when he was an innocent child, that he should just sit down and shut up and accept subjugation. He had every right to want to honor his father’s memory and not give in to the bullies, and rebel against the monarchy achieved by conquest. Calling it ingratitude makes the assumption that someone who had no reason to be murdered, and then was spared, now is indebted to their would-be murderer and owes them gratitude for not being despicable. This thought process particularly reminds me of the childish game where two kids are standing near a ledge or edge of sidewalk, and one child pushes the other toward the edge and then pulls them back, exclaiming “I saved your life!”..
“Dalinar follows up on this by ordering the city razed. Certainly not his proudest moment, but… by that point what alternative did they leave him that would not result in the unraveling of the kingdom that he and Gavilar had spent decades building and a bloody civil war that would have caused even more deaths? They were given every opportunity to settle things peacefully and refused to do so at every turn, despite knowing full well exactly what was at stake.”
My comment is simply that the “city” (i.e., the thousands of innocent bystanders just living their lives with absolutely nothing to do with the Alethi politics and rebellion – which even, the rebellion had complete justification if you look at it from Rathalas’ point of view) did nothing wrong. The leaders, the soldiers, yes, Dalinar had the right in war to kill the enemy combatants. But killing thousands of innocents so "e “This kingdom must know the price of rebellion. We make a statement today” [Dalinar said]. “Obey or die?” Teleb asked.” … That’s a completely false dichotomy that’s manufactured by the Kholins for their own benefit. For Dalinar, what’s the worst that happens if there’s no Kingdom? Having the kingdom is worth killing thousands of innocents as “collateral damage”?
Dalinar doesn’t even know of or care about any potential “unite them” reason that could be pushing Gavilar to kill for the throne, he just lets his brother point him and doesn’t question the morality of it. His reasoning is (however jokingly, which I don’t think was very much) "e “Hey, all these people have stuff, and we figured … hey maybe we should have that stuff. so we took it.” When telling Tanalan about what he did, Dalinar literally calls himself an animal, he knows what he’s done is an act that has no human decency involved in it, and he’s too upset and bothered by it all to care. Its much more than “not his proudest moment”.. its the most despicable act he’s ever done and he knows it himself, as it crushes him and leads him back to drinking before he finds his way toward the light and trying to be a better man.
At least, that’s the way I see it.
@121, 122
I’m trying to avoid the fallacy of judging another culture by the standards of my own. In a culture where conflict and warfare are considered normal, conquest brings with it a certain presumption of legitimacy that it would not in modern-day America. Simply put, they lost fair and square and so they ought to accept that. Would I say the same thing about people on Earth today? No. But this is Alethkar. Gavilar’s victory by right of conquest is legitimate enough already, and that’s even before you factor in the motivation behind it: to bring unity and put an end to centuries of fighting between them.
Given that Gavilar ordered that the heir be killed specifically so that exactly what ended up happening later would not end up happening, I’d hardly say there was no reason for it! That’s a practice that actually is well supported by real-world history.
Roshar is a rough place. This is perhaps best summed up by Hoid, one of the most knowledgeable people in the entire Cosmere, when Dalinar asks him “am I a tyrant?” and he responds (paraphrased) “maybe you are, but maybe a tyrant is exactly what Roshar needs right now.”
It’s important to consider actions in context and ask “what’s the alternative?” Tanalan Jr. wanted revenge on Dalinar. Fine. He could have found a way to pursue it without stirring his entire city and a sizeable chunk of the kingdom up to rebellion. He’d still have most likely ended up dead, but at least he wouldn’t have dragged the people of Rathalas all down with him. When he double-crossed Dalinar at the end there, Dalinar had a handful of ways he could have responded to it, all of them bad. Razing the city was the least bad alternative available, because it kept the harm confined to Rathalas. Anything else would have led to an all-out civil war.
You don’t stir up an entire city to rebellion without stirring up the city to rebellion. If Tanalan Jr. had come and started rabble-rousing and they had wanted no part of it, the rabble could just as easily have refused to be roused and told him to get lost.
A very bad person who happened to end up on the right side of history completely by accident. Brandon has said straight out that he’s a remorseless psychopath who, in a different story, would have been the villain. (See https://wob.coppermind.net/events/256-oathbringer-london-signing/#e8700 and https://wob.coppermind.net/events/190-rfantasy-ama-2013/#e4103 for details.)
As mentioned in comment #108: if you want to participate here, you must keep the tone of discussion civil, according to the guidelines laid out in the Moderation Policy. That means not making arguments personal, knowing when to walk away from a disagreement, and adhering to warnings and input from the the moderators. This is the second and final warning on this point.
Mason Wheeler @118. You said “Journey Before Destination. If Jasnah goes through with this plan, she’s violated her first oath to her spren. In pursuit of an indisputably noble destination, true, but it still makes her an oathbreaker, and that’s kind of a big deal to the Radiants.” Brandon has made statements that are contrary to your opinion. Brandon has issued WoB’s that a Machiavellian philosophy would not violate the Ideals of some Orders of KR. One such order is Elsecallers. The ends justify the means is a philosophy that is compatible with Elsecallers Ideals. Such Ideals by definition have to include the First Ideal (A KR has to say the First Ideal before he/she can advance to the other Ideals).
Thanks for reading my musings.
AndrewHB
aka the musespren
I love maps, so I think this map is the coolest invention I’ve encountered in the Cosmere. Less widely-useful than Soulcasters or spanreeds, but incredibly beautiful and fascinating, as well as useful for battle planning. It’s like satellite imagery without the satellines.
@51: Google Maps immediately came to my mind, too. :-D Though their map is rather more reliably accurate than Google Earth satellite images, if they update it every four days instead of months or years apart.
I like the idiom “putting our chulls to work before we’ve bought them.” Rosharans technically could say “counting our chickens before they hatch,” but chulls are more common than “chickens” on most of the continent.
“Don’t belittle anyone while I’m gone, Brightness. You’ll make me feel obsolete.” Please, Hoid. You’re the Snarkmaster of the Greater Cosmere. And you’ve met Shallan and Lift, the respective Snarkmasters of Eastern and Western Roshar, so you know that while Jasnah can insult and belittle, she’s not of their snarking caliber. She even tried to suppress Shallan’s snarking, back in the day, can you believe it? (This is me with my Cosmere Snark Team imaginings.)
*reads the last note* Ah, storms. I’ll need to buy the Dawnshard ebook as soon as it’s available, chronic hand pain be stormed, because I don’t wanna miss the reread. And I wants the book now!! Because Lopen and Rysn and Aimia and who knows what else!!! It might be even better than Edgedancer, and I didn’t think that was possible. But I’ll need RoW to be on downloadable audio, and don’t know when my libraries will get it. Might be time for Audible, because I don’t wanna miss that reread either.
@14 Carl
Since we know that Elsecallers can actively worldhop without outside assistance of their own power, I actually find it very plausible that at a certain point in a future book Jasnah will visit Scadrial. Remains to be seen, nevertheless interesting find.
@77 goddhessimho
“once Jashna gives the crown to Gavinor she would be quite free to world hop once they solve the “Radiants Restricted to Roshar Restraint”.”
It’s been strongly hinted by Brandon that Elsecallers have worldhopped in the past and can still do it in the present, so my assumption would be that the “RRRR” only applies to the other 9 orders and the Elsecallers can freely ignore it. Jasnah just has to realize that she’s able to leave.
I keep making this joke but it really does feel like a job keeping up with these comments – by the time I read the article and the comments there’s a bunch more :)
Anyway – Jasnah is my homegirl, but I really like Navani (and Egwene in WoT) too and those are also characters that seem to get characterized in ways (or ascribed motives) that I just don’t read them as at all. I always felt her talking about genocide in the previous book was more of a nonstarter – like, yes, technically this is a choice, but not one she was specifically advocating for. And I also feel her defense against the rapists is sometime mischaracterized, especially when compared to things other characters have done at less provocation.
That said, I would also not be surprised if, like Lincoln, her reasons for freeing the slaves are not just for strictly ethical reasons, but political expediency. That doesn’t make it totally wrong, but I do think there’s more going on here.
As for her and Wit, count me among the ones who think it’s likely more of an intellectual partnership (although maybe we’re supposed to think it’s a red herring). I’m cool with Jasnah being ace/aro (and definitely see why others resnonate wiht that), BUT as a girl/woman who has some personality traints in common (and was also very picky about romantic partners) I also got some grief about such things so I wouldn’t want to assume she is either.
I am going to miss these discussions when the book comes out
Hello all! I’m new here, I’ve been lurking for a couple weeks catching up to everybody since I hadn’t realized they were releasing chapters every week like this until recently, what a terrific idea! Anyway I just wanted to post a couple theories I’ve been working on, I realize no one will probably read this because it’s like the 135th comment haha, so I will try to post again earlier on next weeks discussion but I really wanted to get these on here now since I haven’t seen anyone else mention them as of yet.
So anyway, is it possible that Kaladin is being affected, either directly or somehow indirectly by Dai-gonarthis? I’m not sure if he would be individually targeted but I’m guessing so because this unmade is known as the Black Fisher. I realize that Kaladin def has depression already and has been dealing with it off and on for his whole life, so I’m assuming there has to be something there to begin with for Dai-gonarthis to worm his way in to ones mind. But the severity of Kal’s despair this time somehow felt different, and it was also mentioned that he’s having bad dreams of some kind affecting his sleep. So my theory is that the Black Fisher is attacking Kaladin somehow and he will have to free himself from its influence to be able to swear the 4th ideal. I came to this conclusion because of 2 pieces of evidence, one being that somehow Moash knew about Kaladin having considered suicide at the chasms, something that I feel very strongly Kal wouldn’t have mentioned to anyone. But if he was being influenced by Dai-gonarthis presumably the Black Fisher knows about it and hence Odium and his minions would be aware of it. My second piece of evidence was just the little bit we have heard in the text about Dai-gonarthis, specifically this quote,
“Let me no longer hurt! Let me no longer weep! Dai-gonarthis! The black fisher holds my sorrow and consumes it!” (TWOK ch. 67 epigraph)
It just sounds similar to me to what Kal is going through, I suppose it’s weak evidence if it’s evidence at all but it’s all I’ve got!
Well I guess that’s enough for now, haha tl;dr. I will try to post my other theories more concisely after next weeks chapter! Also I apologize if someone has already come up with this theory, I think I’ve read all of the comments so far on this ROW re-read and I’m pretty sure I didn’t see this mentioned but it’s possible I missed it, if so sorry for the repeat!
Kaladin explicitly mentions that Moash is one of the few people he talked to about his problems.
I love it when we get a bit more of Hoid! I wonder what his true motives are behind being Jasnah’s Wit. I could believe the possibility that he intentionally, yet secretively, had a part in getting Elokhar killed so that he could take the spren that he was about to bond. We assume that he wasn’t terribly fond of Elhokhar and maybe he was hoping/plotting of getting someone more competent on the throne.
The revelation (whenever it first happened) that “Damnantion” and the “Tranquiline Halls” are actually nearby planets must have felt so weird. To learn that the places your people have spent milennia thinking of as basically Hell and Heaven, mysterious other-places humanly accessed only by the souls of the dead, are physical planets that the living can see in the night sky…
Probably a stupid theory combined with my low level of cosmere understanding. But what if the end (of like the series) is somehow Dalinar (with maybe combined help of the other 2 bondsmiths) bonding the shards back together, splinters and all, into Adonalsium?
@gaurav: you are not the first to think of that, especially given the name Unity. There are also people theorizing that “Unity” means he’ll Splinter Odium, then combine Honor and Odium into a new Shard, similar to how SPOILERS Sazed combined Ruin and Preservation into Harmony.
It occurs to me: how frustrating it must be for Jasnah and Navani in particular to have Ash saying, “Yeah, my dad and Ishar used to talk about all the exact things you want to know, but I was bored by it and refused to listen. And by the way, dad used to be a beggar outside your palace and Dalinar used to drink with him all the time, but you didn’t know to ask him then and now he’s permadead.”
@133 I like that theory, but not sure how credible it is. Kaladin could very well just have normal severe depression, given all the things that have happened to him and the people he’s lost.
First time commenter! As a material scientist, the use of metals in the Cosmere has always been interesting.
@62 @67
Regarding the metal of the Fused’s sword, aluminum seems like the best guess. First, It is uncommon to pre-modern peoples, which would explain the absence of it being more common. Second, there is a word of Brandon stating that Nightblood’s sheath is indeed aluminum, giving precedence regarding the ability for it to stop shardblade like objects and nullifying investiture. With respect to coloring, I think it is a moot point, as explained below.
TLDR: White vs Silvery metal doesn’t really matter, so Brandon is probably just referring to previously mentioned silvery metals aka aluminum. Material strength also doesn’t particularly matter as form would have a great impact on properties.
Metal reflectivity and color is a really interesting and challenging topic. As light interacts with materials, there are three occurrences (almost always): transmission, absorption, and reflection. Metals happen to be excellent reflectors due to there being a ‘sea of electrons’ around the nuclei permitting the electromagnetic radiation (light) to principally interact with them and be kinetically “bounced” back. If there are oxides (rusts) on the surface of the material, or other particulate, the light can be more absorbed by them instead of being reflected by the surface of the metal. Thus by polishing and cleaning tarnished silver, it can be made to be reflective again. This is the case for aluminum, titanium, silver, and even steel, notwhistanding the fact that most of these materials form oxide layers that can help or hinder the reflectivity
In the case of metals like gold or copper, the electronic bandgaps of the material are such that they can more readily absorb certain light wavelengths, thus giving them their characteristic color, but most simply reflect most of the electromagnetic spectrum.
Regarding whether aluminum is sufficiently strong to be used as a sword. Clearly aluminum isn’t as strong as steel. Their modulus (stiffness) differ greatly (68-79GPa vs 190-210GPa) as well as their tensile strength (force required to break it) (230-570 MPa vs 276-1882 MPa). Even with this difference, aluminum is still a great material for a wide variety of applications and can still take an edge even if it doesn’t last nearly as long as the steel would.
However, the form of the swords has a direct impact on whether it could take a blow from another sword of a different material. For example, both aluminum and steel are used in bike frames and aluminum frames are known to be stiffer even though the base material isn’t; the form matters. I wouldn’t discount aluminum swords of particular designs being used to specifically combat shardblades. The biggest difficulty would be that in battling against someone with shardplate, the force may simply be too much and would destroy the aluminum (or any other material even if it wasn’t cut).
Hi,
Late to the action, and not an often a commentator , but I have a question:
if literally honour is dead, is this death not also given as examples to us in that slavery is not only allowed but seen as honourable, including limits on movements of “dahn 1s” (or however they are called)? Is not slavery one of the key definitions of a dishonorable thing in of itself? The same for any kind of oppression, repression, domination, exploitation, which would seem to me to be things that are inherently dishonouable).
So it is quite interesting to me, that a world that honour was killed on, and yet helped invest contains slavery? How is this possible?
Would not the most literal way to reload honour not be exactly what Jasnah has proposed to do. Free the slaves, all the slaves.
i had personally hoped that Kaladin would literally be one of the leaders on this honourable quest, given that that slave sash remains. I had hoped that not only would we find Dalinor easily supporting this, along with Shallon and everyone else, but that indeed, it would have long been obvious. Although I admit for my Marxist heart, it would be the slaves who free themselves, which would make the most Thrilling story. Like the Haitian Revolution showed the world, the quickest and easiest way to end slavery is the slaves freeing themselves. Alas, this is not the story to be. An enjoyable ride still though.
Go Jasnah. It’s about time!
Also, on cosmere tip, while I can believe that Hoid is an asshole, i like his interactions here in the SA. i’ve always loved the character of wit/court jesters, and he’s sometimes, as we saw with Shallon, and now with Jasnah, more helpful than Zahel, who as well, has been useful.
But moreover, while I know we do not know his actual intentions, to me his intention (lol) is ending odium. To end odium, which seems to me as the baseline attitude to hold, Hoid would “nuke the world” as it were. Is this journey before destination? Words that he has sworn? His conversation with Dalinar, identifying his intent as stopping Odium, even if it meant s, was even before he picked up his spren (do we know the name?)
The existence of Odium, even in the Roshar system is too much for the cosmere, and asks too much of its people to sacrifice (is Taln’s sacrifice not also Honour’s sacrifice of the Rosharan system and its people with the hearlds)? But which sacrifice of life is worthwhile? Endless desolations, or ending Odium? Which costs more? If we accept the character of Dalinor, who we supposedly find honourable, and yet his past shows him as quite not honourable, would not Hoid also be acting honourably in working to end Odium, not be honourable, even if this meant sacrificing the whole system?
@141 I believe in the book, it said that towards the end of Honor’s life he was more focused on agreements, or the Words and the upkeeping of promises than he was about the rest of the aspects of the word “honor”. Honor wouldn’t have seen a problem with slavery because it was in a sense a form of an agreement, if only by law. (That might be a stretch). But he also wouldn’t have cared because it just wouldn’t have shown up in his “radar”. He was focused on other things, I think.
@141 jer
There’s a lot to unpack here, but I will try my best to address your questions/issues from what I know of Roshar and the cosmere.
In regards to Honor: Slavery as a social institution is relatively new to Roshar. Yes, it came about while he was still alive (read: while Tanavast was still alive) but at that time he was so cognitively weakened and mentally overtaxed by the conflict with Odium that he really had to pick his priorities. And fending off Odium will tend to outrank pretty much anything in anyone’s priority list. This doesn’t mean that he was *okay* with it, in fact the opposite is likely true, considering info we have from other Shards talking about him and from Hoid describing Tanavast as a kind, empathetic individual.
In regards to his Investiture: When Honor first came to Roshar, there were no humans on the planet, it was all Listeners. And as far as we know of Listener culture they had no slavery.
In regards to “reloading” Honor: This can be read in two ways. If you meant restoring the Vessel (Tanavast), as far as we know that is impossible, as when a Shard is shattered its Vessel goes permanently to the Beyond. If you meant making the Knights Radiant more powerful/attuned to the Investiture of Honor… abolishing slavery is unlikely to do much of anything in that regard. We have in-world evidence of this from the fact that the Empire of Azir doesn’t have slavery, and this neither gives them more Radiants nor more powerful Radiants. And if it doesn’t work on a smaller scale, I wouldn’t assume it would work on a larger scale.
In regards to Hoid’s Oath: While all Knights Radiant swear the exact same First Ideal with the exact same wording, they do interpret it in different ways, as explicitly stated by Sanderson. So you have to look at which Order someone is part of before you can effectively interpret what they’ve actually sworn. Your interpretation of “Journey before destination.” seems to be “The ends don’t justify the means.”. And this is a perfectly valid interpretation… for a Windrunner. But Hoid is not a Windrunner. He’s a Lightweaver. Lightweavers are all about speaking their own truth and being self-consistent and self-aware. What is Hoid’s truth? It is that, as he has consistently shown (for example in Mistborn and in the Emperor’s Soul), he is a ruthless utilitarian who is perfectly willing to sacrifice innocents to save innocents. Would him burning Roshar to the ground to kill Odium be in line with honor? Maybe not, but it would be in line with integrity, and that’s probably all that is required of him in order to not oathbreak.
Hope this was helpful!
All this talk about what Honor actually means brings me back the the Storm Father saying that Navani had also broken an oath. At first I was thinking it was just that she married her husband’s brother but with this “pre-read” I think it must mean her wishing he were dead. She never took any action, other than burning a glyph, she is an oath breaker for wanting not doing.
I believe SA is an almost classical morality tale. The Shards and their “intent” show us how anything taken to extreme can destroy the spirit of a good thought/idea and turn it into a horror. The Heralds and the humans, poor Kaladin especially, are the living story of what happens when you lose the balance between the word and the spirit. Thou shalt not kill, except…
Where is Dawnshard…….
@145 – Still in gamma. The expansion from novella to novel kinda forced every step of the process to take longer than planned. The change is very worth it; the original draft was great, and the update is even better. But it is taking longer. They hope to have it out to kickstarter backers by the end of this week, so hopefully it will be available to everyone early next week. Don’t bet the rent money on it, but that’s the current hope.
I was happy to see Jasnah address Alethi slavery. The brutality of slavery and corruption of the system has been an ongoing theme for the series, and I am glad to see those that benefit from the system have to grapple with it. Dalinar’s reaction was disappointing, but not surprising. He has always seemed to have a view from the top, and thought that if things are fine up there, they are fine down below too.
146. Wetlandernw
I guess I should not be surprised to hear such an frank update on the TOR website, but still a really nice thing to read while having my morning coffee! Thanks! Can’t wait for this thing!
Loved this chapter!
I’m almost 100% sure that the “silvery metal” is chromium.
Because it burns Investiture in others, not yourself.
I didn’t read every comment so this may have already been mentioned, but Jasnah and Dalinar agreeing to fight the war in Emul means they’ve diverted themselves away from Urithiru for Raboniel, right? Getting them out of the tower was meant to be Taravangian’s job, but they’re now doing that themselves?
Also at the end of OB, Dalinar did his Unity thing and Taln and Ash became fully lucid…Couldn’t Dalinar recreate that? Or only the readers know that bringing the realms together makes the Heralds sane again, because no one else was in Ash’s viewpoint during that chapter.
@Gaz … these questions are answered by the book. I don’t want to spoil it for you.