Welcome back, fellow Cosmere fans, to the read-along discussion series for Rhythm of War! If you’re here, hopefully you’ve read through chapters two and three, so without further ado, let’s kick this discussion into high gear!
Reminder: we’ll potentially be discussing spoilers for the entirety of the series up until now—if you haven’t read ALL of the published entries of the Stormlight Archive, best to wait to join us until you’re done.
[No Cosmere spoilers this week, you’re safe!]
Chapter Recap
WHO: Kaladin/Shallan, Navani
WHERE: Hearthstone/the Shattered Plains, Hearthstone
WHEN: The same day as Chapter One
Kaladin fights off a new type of Fused that has a… sort of teleportation ability, but he runs off leaving an ominous warning that this isn’t the last time Kaladin will see him. Meanwhile, Shallan is in the Shattered Plains warcamps trying to get herself kidnapped so she can get to the bottom of whatever Ialai Sadeas is up to.
Back in Hearthstone, Kaladin returns in time to see Navani’s brand-spanking-new air-barge (I can’t quite justify calling it an airship just yet) arrive. They’re planning on evacuating the entire town to Urithiru, along with the Mink—but he insists that they stop along the way and rescue what remains of his resistance force, too. Just as they’re about to leave, they learn that a Fused force is on the horizon….
Overall Reactions
L: The prologue was fun and all, but it’s so nice to start really settling back into the world of Roshar! It’s like curling up into a nice comfortable chair with a drink of your choice, isn’t it?
A: It is, rather. It’s like meeting old friends again, even when they’re grumbling, or doing things of questionable wisdom.
L: I love seeing Kaladin again, though it seems as though he’s still struggling with his depression. This isn’t exactly unexpected—he didn’t get much resolution after Elhokar’s death, Moash’s betrayal, and his failure to swear the Fourth Ideal, after all. He has a lot of what he views as his failures to process. And it doesn’t look as though his strained relationship with his father or a recent romantic breakup are helping, either.
A: As we know well, depression isn’t something you just get over, even under the best of circumstances. The past year does not seem to have been even “reasonably good” circumstances, much less “the best.” The events of Oathbringer were enough to require a lot of recovery time, and instead, they’ve been fighting continuously as well as trying to sort out the mess of Taravangian’s betrayal, etc. Emotional baggage often needs some peace and quiet to sort; a continual struggle for survival is not conducive.
L: And speaking of emotional baggage, it looks as though Shallan’s still lugging around an entire luggage cart’s worth, too.
A: Sigh. Yes, it sure looks that way. I’d sort of hoped to see that a year of marriage to the best dude ever had made it possible for her to resolve her personality divisions, but… guess not.
Buy the Book
Rhythm of War
L: Navani’s still processing the death of her son, but at least she’s had a good healthy way of dealing—by throwing herself into her work and creating something! (Thereby completely disproving Gavilar’s awful insults in the prologue, I’d like to add.)
A: It really is nice to see someone moving forward, isn’t it? She still doesn’t think of herself as worthy of the credit for this thing, but she’s doing the work anyway. Inspiration and project management are far more important than she thinks!
But for a moment, imagine a fleet of ordinary ships suffering an attack from one of these up above. It wouldn’t need trained archers. The flying sailors could drop stones and sink a fleet in minutes.…” He glanced to her. “My dear, if these things become ubiquitous, it won’t only be navies that are rendered obsolete. I can’t decide if I’m glad to be old enough to wish my world a fond farewell, or if I envy the young lads who get to explore this new world.”
L: I’m reminded of a recurring theme/quote from Stephen King’s The Dark Tower: “The world has moved on.” This is a very interesting theme to see in fantasy novels, but also a bit sad. We see it so very starkly in the world around us… I used to be a projectionist in a movie theater, and that job has now been rendered almost entirely extinct by digital projectors. Radio DJs and so many other jobs are being forced to either evolve with the times, or perish. It can be a little heart-breaking for those who have spent their lives training in these professions… but the world moves on.
A: Indeed it does, and I agree with Kmakl: it’s both sad to see the old things go, and exciting to see the new things come. I’m pretty sure he’s wrong about one thing, though: even with ubiquitous airships, navies won’t be obsolete. Not until the design makes a whole lot of progress, anyway. I wonder… Are we going to see a strong forward movement in technology, or are we going to see the new technologies collapse by getting ahead of themselves, leaving everyone grateful that they haven’t completely forgotten the old ways? It could go either way.
Humans
Kaladin grunted in reply.
L: Kaladin grunt count: 1. And in the very first sentence from his POV, no less! Impressive, Kal.
A: LOL. Shall we keep track as we go? I think maybe each “Humans” section needs to start with that.
L: I’m game for a Kaladin grunt counter.
Syl formed into a majestic silvery spear as he swept his hand outward.
L: I’d just really like to point out this awesome (canonical) artwork by Ben McSweeney of Kaladin with the Syl-spear.
A: I adore that one. Of course, I tend to adore Syl, and anything by Ben, so the combination is irresistible.
His spear vanished and Syl reappeared, standing in the air in front of him. She’d taken to wearing a stylish dress, ankle-length and sleek, instead of the filmy girlish one. When he’d asked, she’d explained that Adolin had been advising her.
L: This tickles my funny bone. Sweet, blessed Adolin and his fashion sense.
A: Oh, this was absolutely delicious! I’m not sure which part I like better: Adolin’s fashion sense itself, or Sylphrena consulting him since obviously Kaladin would be useless in this context. What a delightful burn.
L: I hate to think about what sort of fashion advice Kaladin would offer…
A dummy? What in the Stormfather’s unknown name?
The soldiers seemed equally surprised, though the tall one merely sighed and gave Kaladin a resigned look. “He does this sometimes, Brightlord.”
L: Reminds me of Batman vanishing on Commissioner Gordon.
A: It kills me the way his soldiers don’t seem all that bothered by their general sneaking off. I guess he’s earned his nickname.
Navani would have preferred to bring Isasik, but he was off on one of his mapping expeditions, this time to the eastern part of the Shattered Plains.
L: Reminder that this is Isaac, Brandon’s cartographer and the artist who makes all the cool symbols in the books (as well as other things). Hi, Isaac!
The last Edgedancer in the group—a lanky girl who seemed to have grown an entire foot in the last year—missed her jump though, and tripped over a large rock the others had dodged.
L: This can only be Lift. Good to see that she’s grown taller—another clear indicator that yes, she is aging, despite her boon (what she asked of the Nightwatcher/Cultivation.
A: And still no less of a klutz, it seems! Come to think of it, with that growth spurt, it would be a surprise if she weren’t uncoordinated. She’s probably more annoyed at the Nightwatcher than ever!
“Good for them,” the Herdazian man said. “Your flying boy says you’ve got a place for me here. Don’t know what I think of serving an Alethi. I’ve spent most of my life trying to stay away from them.” He eyed Dalinar. “You specifically, Blackthorn. No offense.”
L: The more we see of the Mink, the more I love him.
A: I admit I’m predisposed in his favor, after what he did to Sheler, but I agree. He’s a keeper. (…if you can…)
“Squabbles?” the man asked. “So that’s the Alethi word for them. Yes, yes. My mastery of your language, you see, is lacking. I’d been mistakenly referring to your actions as ‘raping and burning my people.’ ”
L: Welp.
A: Got some first aid cream for that burn? Seriously, the man has a point; despite Dalinar’s great developments over the last seven years, he—and the Alethi in general—have not historically been good neighbors to the Herdazians. I rather like the way Dalinar is continually having to live down his old reputation. It’s so realistic.
Singers/Fused
Over the last year, new varieties of Fused had been appearing on the battlefields in a trickle. Kaladin was most familiar with the ones who could fly like Windrunners. Those were called the shanay-im, they’d learned; it roughly meant “Those Ones of the Heavens.”
L: Oooooh new Fused!
A: And names! Cool new designations! I really do hope we get good descriptions and distinctions between the different varieties. I need help keeping them straight.
L: Me too. There’s a lot of different names already to keep straight—parsh, parshendi, listeners, singers, Fused…
Other Fused could not fly; as with the Radiants, each type had their own set of powers. Jasnah posited there would be ten varieties, though Dalinar—offering no explanation of why he knew this—said there would be only nine.
L: According to what we know, Fused powers align with the Surges the Knights Radiant use. But there are ten Surges… so if there are only nine orders of Fused, which one is missing?
A: Oh, the speculation on this one! I think the most common theory I’ve heard is that likely the Bondsmiths are missing, but I’m not sure (off the top of my head) what the rationale is.
L: But which of the two Surges the Bondsmiths have? All Knights Radiant have two Surges,, while it seems as though the Fused only have one.
A: I’ve heard the theory that the Fused have one Surge per type; I like the notion as a very cool differentiation between the Radiants and the Fused. If that’s the case, I’ve heard a fairly good theory that Adhesion would be the Surge closest to the Honor point on the Radiant diagram, and would likely be the one missing from the Fused powerset.
L: Also, why is Dalinar so certain about the number nine? Is it just because he has realized the importance of the number through his dealings with Odium? (Remember that his visions of the Champion always showed it with nine shadows.) Or because there are nine Unmade?
A: Could be either one. Or it could be that he’s gotten hints from the Stormfather’s memories. Dalinar is the only person living to bond a spren that was alive prior to the Recreance, much less prior to Aharietiam—which is the last time Roshar saw the Fused. (Okay, Nale’s spren might be from before the Recreance; we really don’t know.)
L: Syl was around before the Recreance too, remember. (Reminder: the Recreance was the day the Knights Radiant lay down their Shardblades and abandoned their oaths. It happened about 2,000 years before the events of The Way of Kings. Aharietiam is the “final battle” 4,500 years ago when the Heralds laid down their Honorblades and refused to return to torture—except for Taln.)
A: Oh, you’re right. Syl, the Stormfather, and maybe Nale’s spren were bonded prior to the Recreance; some others we’ve seen may have been around, but we don’t know anything about their prior bonding. The key to what I was thinking, though, would be Aharietiam—the last time the Fused were active on Roshar. Stormfather was… aware, though not as aware as he is now. Syl wasn’t around back then. We don’t know about any others, so I’m hoping the Stormfather can remember more useful things!
This variety marked the seventh Kaladin had fought. And, winds willing, the seventh he would kill.
A: Seven varieties of Fused so far, eh? We certainly couldn’t identify that many by the end of Oathbringer, so … I guess it’s time to start counting!
The fog-shrouded figure in the near distance collapsed suddenly, and something shot out of the body—a small line of red-violet light like a spren. That line of light darted to Kaladin in the blink of an eye, then it expanded to re-form the shape of the Fused with a sound like stretching leather mixed with grinding stone.
The Fused appeared in the air right in front of Kaladin. Before Kaladin could react, the Fused had grabbed him by the throat with one hand and by the front of the uniform with another.
L: Whoa. That’s pretty OP (over-powered). Teleportation of any variety in a fight is super dangerous!
A: It seems distinctly unfair, I must say.
Kaladin screamed and felt his limbs go numb as his spinal cord was severed. His Stormlight rushed to heal the wound, but this Fused was plainly experienced at fighting Surgebinders, because he continued to plunge the knife into Kaladin’s neck time and time again, keeping him from recovering.
L: YIKES ON BIKES.
A: Even my confidence that Kaladin wouldn’t die in the second chapter of the book didn’t make this less terrifying.
He left a body behind each time his soul—or whatever—became a ribbon of red light. Kaladin’s Blade sliced the body’s head clean off, but the light had already escaped.
Stormwinds. This thing seemed more spren than singer.
L: As we find out later, at least he can only do this a set number (3) of times! That helps with the OP-ness. As Sanderson himself stated in his Second Law of Magic, the limitations are more interesting than the powers themselves.
A: Survive, survive, survive, breathe. Lather, rinse, repeat. What an exhausting way to fight a battle, always watching for that red streak to signal a fight for your life.
The corpse—or whatever it was—looked dried out and fragile, the colors faded, like the shell of a snail long dead. The flesh underneath had turned into some kind of stone, porous and light.
L: Well, that’s fascinating. So it’s not like this Fused is possessing other bodies (I know that technically it is already, in that it had to find a Singer to possess, but that’s not what I mean in this instance).
A: Yeah, how does this work? He takes a singer body and then keeps making replicas of it? So weird. Also creepy.
They’d met Fused that could fly, and others that had powers like Lightweavers. Perhaps this was the variety whose powers mirrored, in a way, the traveling abilities of Elsecallers.
L: Sort of? A reminder that the Elsecallers are transitioning into and out of the Cognitive Realm (Shadesmar) and that’s how they travel. Like ducking into an alternate dimension for awhile. This Fused might be doing something similar, leaving behind just a spark of red light in the Physical Realm (like how we only see part of a spren), but in that case, how is it creating new “bodies”? Is it maybe convincing matter to change while it’s in the Cognitive Realm? (Remember Shallan’s “You could be fire” conversation with the stick, in Words of Radiance?)
A: I’m lost on this one. Is it Soulcasting? That doesn’t fit with the “one Surge per Fused variety” theory, but I’m not sure what else it could be. I have to wonder if we’ll see Jasnah—or other Elsecallers—zip around in a manner anything like this. I almost hope not. It’s creepy.
Yes… that black wrap he wore was hair, from the top of his head, wound long and tight around his body. He broke a carapace spur off his arm—a sharp and jagged weapon—and pointed it toward Kaladin. He had probably used one of those as a dagger when attacking Kaladin’s back.
Both spur and hair seemed to imply he couldn’t take objects with him when teleporting— so he couldn’t keep Voidlight spheres on his person, but had to retreat to refill.
L: Well, thank goodness for that, at least. But the fact that he has built-in weapons is hardly fair!
A: There’s just nothing that is fair about this Fused. NOTHING.
“Watch for me from the corner of your eye, Windrunner. We’ll meet again soon.”
L: Well, that’s not ominous or anything.
Relationships & Romances
Kaladin pointedly avoided looking at his father, to not betray their relationship. Besides, he knew what he would see. Disappointment.
So, nothing new.
L: Ouch. Well… guess nothing’s changed between Kaladin and Lirin in the year-long gap between books, huh?
A: Sigh. Apparently not.
The part of Kaladin trained by his father considered the wound analytically.
A: In one sense, I’m happy to see Kaladin acknowledge the usefulness of the training he received from Lirin, though he’s really never denied that. But it’s still the soldier training that figures out what to do with the surgeon’s knowledge—or in this case, almost despite the surgeon’s knowledge.
“I’m a soldier, Father,” Kaladin said. “I fight for these people.”
“Any idiot with hands can hold a spear. I trained your hands for something better.”
L: Yup, nothing’s changed at all.
A: Sigh.
“Fine,” Syl said. “I’ll do your part.” Her image fuzzed, and she became a perfect replica of Kaladin, sitting on his own shoulder. “Well well,” she said in a growling, low-pitched voice. “Grumble grumble. Get in line, men. Storming rain, ruining otherwise terrible weather. Also, I’m banning toes.”
L: Oh god I LOVE Syl so much. She’s such a perfect annoying little sister!
A: Bahahahahaha!! Oh, Syl.
Storms, he thought. Where would I be if I hadn’t found her?
The answer was obvious. He’d be dead at the bottom of a chasm, having leaped into the darkness.
L: That sound you just heard was my heart breaking.
“So,” Kaladin’s mother said, “how is Lyn?”
“Does that always have to be your first question?”
“Mother’s prerogative,” Hesina said. “So?”
“She broke up with him,” Syl said, shaped as a tiny glowing axehound.
L: Go ahead, get it out of your system.
A: LYN!! HOW COULD YOU OF ALL PEOPLE BREAK UP WITH KALADIN STORMBLESSED‽‽‽ Have you no compassion, woman? What were you thinking‽
… Okay, carry on.
L: I do have a funny story about this. When I went out to Utah for the Starsight book release event, Brandon told me that the character based on me dated and broke up with Kaladin in between books. I laughed, and said, “you’re kidding, right?”
If you’ve never had the chance to meet Brandon in person, you wouldn’t know that he’s got a wonderful deadpan. He replied, “Nope.” I examined his face and felt doubt creeping in. “You… you are kidding, right?” He laughed a little and asserted again that he was serious. And in that moment, I knew I was going to get a lot of light-hearted ribbing from the fandom who knows that this character is based on me. (Though I will note that my next question was “please tell me she didn’t break the poor boy’s heart, I couldn’t take that.”) So… yes. I’m the one who broke up with Kaladin Stormblessed. Tease away, I’ve had months to prepare.
A: The sole drawback to a tuckerization that grew into a real character: they start being themselves instead of sort-of-you, and all of a sudden they’re doing something shocking, and … they aren’t you at all.
L: In all seriousness though and speaking without bias, as much as I like the idea of Kal finding a love interest who’s a fellow Windrunner (think of all they’d have in common), I think he has a lot of growth and self-discovery to do before he can have a successful romantic relationship with anyone.
A: You’ll get no argument from me on that score. He needs friends he can trust, but that emotional baggage we talked about earlier is going to need some resolution before he can be truly dedicated to someone else in a romantic relationship.
Bruised & Broken
Indeed, he felt better when he got up and drew in a little more Stormlight. So what if the sleepless nights had returned? He’d survived on less sleep before. The slave Kaladin had been would have laughed himself silly to hear that this new Kaladin—lighteyed Shardbearer, a man who enjoyed luxurious housing and warm meals—was upset about a little lost sleep.
L: Oh… Oh, Kal. I’m thankful that he has Syl to look out for him at least.
A: “A little lost sleep.” In a way it’s healthy to minimize problems instead of carrying a martyr complex, but he has to know it’s not about “lost sleep” at all. It’s about what’s causing the sleeplessness, and that has to be dealt with. I actually feel bad for Syl in this scene, because she’s so obviously at a loss for how to help him.
L: It’s such a hard position to be in, trying to help a loved one who is dealing with depression. You can only do so much—the victim has to be the one to start taking those all-too-important steps forward towards healing. It has to be of their own volition—pushing them into it won’t help, and could only make things worse.
Veil smiled at the warmth that came from Shallan, and even Radiant, who was coming to enjoy humor. This last year, the three of them had settled into a comfortable balance. They weren’t as separate as they’d been, and swapped personas easily.
L: You know… as much as the split-personality thing bothers me because it’s an outward indicator of how unstable Shallan is mentally, this… I have to admit that I really like this. It’s like Shallan has two friends who are always with her, friends who understand her (literally) inside and out. Stormfather knows that Shallan could use some friends like that… Even if they are inside her own head.
A: Hmm. I can see that aspect, but (as I said above) I’d had some hope that the things she learned about herself at the end of Oathbringer, combined with being married to Mr. Dream, would help her sort out and reintegrate herself. Alas, it was not to be. But as with Kaladin, I also have to admit that the trauma of her past is huge, and it would be … well, sort of cheap to just handwave it away.
They had to perfectly maintain the illusion, as the real Chanasha never let a day go by without reconciling her accounts. She seemed to find it relaxing.
L: Aaaaand we’re back to being a little disturbed. The fact that Shallan is saying that this persona “seemed” to find it relaxing indicates that she doesn’t know—she didn’t build it from scratch.
Now…. I will add a caveat to this, that as a writer, I often experience this. My characters will take on lives of their own and “do things I don’t expect” from time to time, veering off the outline. But this feels different, maybe because we as readers know that Shallan is so damaged and seems to use this as a coping mechanism, as escapism. She is literally allowing herself to become other people because often it’s easier than being Shallan.
A: I read this a little differently. Chanasha is an acknowledged (and purchased) disguise, rather than a persona. Shallan (Veil?) finds it slightly bizarre that the real woman finds reconciling her accounts to be a relaxing exercise, but in the interests of maintaining a good impersonation, she does the reconciling every day anyway.
That said, the ease with which Shallan allows Veil or Radiant to take control in order to escape uncomfortable situations is definitely a sign of continuing instability.
She could do these numbers; she’d first trained on accounting when doing her father’s ledgers. That had begun before she…
Before she…
It might be time, Veil whispered. To remember, once and for all. Everything.
No, it was not.
But…
Shallan retreated immediately. No, we can’t think of that. Take control.
Veil sat back in the seat as her wine arrived. Fine.
L: And here we have Shallan retreating again, using her other personas to hide from her past. Unhealthy? Oh yeah. SUPER unhealthy. But it’s also kind of endearing that Veil seems to be looking out for her well-being, here.
A: I’m so torn on Veil. Sometimes she seems very protective and mama-bear toward Shallan, but I don’t trust her, and I always wonder if there’s an ulterior motive. She seems to think Shallan isn’t capable of anything beyond artwork.
L: Yeah, that’s very troubling. I sometimes worry that she just wants to take over the body entirely, which is CREEPY beyond belief.
A: Exactly. Is Veil being protective here, or just pushing buttons to make Shallan minimize herself?
Syl would expect a response, but he didn’t feel like giving one. Not out of annoyance, but more… a kind of general fatigue.
L: I suffer from bouts of depression from time to time, and this is such a huge red flag for me when I notice it in myself.
“You can fight a Radiant all on your own, if you’d like,” Kaladin said. “Alternatively, if you don’t feel like dying today, you can gather the singers in this town and retreat a half hour’s walk to the east.” …
The six soldiers rushed him.
Kaladin sighed.
L: I love that he gave them the chance. But I’m so sad that they didn’t take him up on it and made him fight and kill needlessly. This is definitely reflecting some of the growth we saw in him from Oathbringer, when he befriended the singers and was so conflicted about having to kill them.
A: At least he didn’t freeze this time…! Okay, to be fair, these are not singers he’d mentored who suddenly turn up in the middle of a battle; these are singers he confronts deliberately. The fact that he’s hoping not to fight them doesn’t mean he isn’t prepared to fight and kill if need be. And yes, it’s too bad they work for a nasty Fused who expects them to just go ahead and die for no particularly good reason.
She wished she could share it with Elhokar. Though most people remembered her son only as the man who had struggled to replace Gavilar as king, she’d known him as the curious, inquisitive boy who had always adored her drawings. He had always enjoyed heights. How he’d have loved the view from this deck…
L: There goes my heart breaking again.
A: This was so painful. Last week in the prologue, we saw how poorly Gavilar thought of Elhokar, and this is probably part of the reason. His natural inclinations were so far from what Gavilar thought worth-while, and clearly aligned much more closely to Navani’s gifts. It makes me hurt for that curious little boy, suppressing his interests and creativity to try to become the kind of person his father wanted him to be. It also hurts for the mother who had to watch him try to be something he wasn’t, and then lost him just as he was on the brink of (perhaps) merging the two.
Weighty Words / The Knights Radiant
“When in danger, he is to vanish.”
“And abandon his men?” Kaladin asked, aghast.
“You don’t survive like the Mink has without learning to wiggle out of situations others could never escape,” the tall Herdazian said. “If we were in danger, he’d try to come back for us. If he couldn’t… well, we’re his guards. Any of us would give our lives so he could escape.”
L: I feel as if this is a lead-in to what Kaladin’s arc is going to be (in story structure terms, it’s the “Theme Stated” moment). It’s long been theorized that Kaladin’s Fourth Ideal will be something along the lines of letting go of those he can’t save, and this is as direct an example as you can get.
Kaladin nodded. “I’m running low on Light, sir.”
Navani slipped her notebook from her pocket as Dalinar raised his hand and pressed it against Kaladin’s chest. There was a faint… warping to the air around them, and for a moment she thought she could see into Shadesmar. Another realm, filled with beads of glass and candle flames floating in place of people’s souls. She thought, for the briefest moment, she heard a tone in the distance. A pure note vibrating through her.
L: Ooooh, so Dalinar can use that ability he pulled out at the end of Oathbringer on command now, huh? That’s handy!
A: We saw at the end of Oathbringer that he was able to overcharge Kaladin for the flight to rescue Gavinor, but it was exhausting for him to do it. He seems to have gotten much better at it!
L: And what’s this about a tone? Is she hearing the rhythms, perhaps?
A: Well, not really a rhythm, just a tone. I think she’d have mentioned it if there were more than that one sound. Still, maybe it’s a step in that direction? That would be cool. We’ve been wondering whether it would ever be possible for humans without singer ancestry to hear the rhythms.
“I’m not sure yet,” she said. “Something is odd about the nature of Urithiru, and I think Bondsmiths might be related to the tower, at least from what we read about the old Radiants.”
A: It’s a reasonable supposition, right? They know from the Stormfather that the Sibling could make a Bondsmith, and they know from the gemstone library that the Sibling was somehow connected to Urithiru. Unfortunately, we—and they—don’t really know much of anything else, and I think it’s getting on her nerves that she can’t figure out what the actual connection is, or how to make it work. She’s got this much put together:
She knew the tower had once been occupied by a powerful spren named the Sibling. A spren on the level of the Nightwatcher or the Stormfather—and capable of making a Bondsmith.
L: Are we going to see a new Bondsmith in this book? Are we? ARE WE? So exciting! Who could it possibly be, if so? SPECULATE AWAY IN THE COMMENTS!
A: I seem to recall suggestions for this role: Rushu, Rlain, Rock, Navani… I’m not sure how many of those are based on perceived qualifications vs. wishful thinking, but there must be some other good candidates too. Thoughts? Let’s hear it!
Secret Societies
Veil made her way to a winehouse near the market. She’d been coming here for weeks now, and the owners knew her well. Intelligence said they, like the shoe merchant, belonged to the Sons of Honor, the group Veil was hunting.
A: Now we know the initial goal of what Shallan is up to in the warcamps, parading around trying to get herself kidnapped. She’s hunting the Sons of Honor, that questionable group of “uncommon figures” Gavilar used to associate with. Somehow, also, Shallan seems to think that Ialai Sadeas is linked with them. Is she right?
L: And does this tie into her association with the Ghostbloods at all? Or is she doing it simply under orders from Dalinar?
A: That’s more than I’ll guess just now. It could so easily be either one, or both.
What We Missed (In the Timeskip)
L: Well, apparently Kaladin had an entire relationship (though we have no idea how long it lasted). Also, he’s fought with seven different kinds of Fused? And Navani’s been busy! Shallan’s still…. Well, Shallan, and Ialai Sadeas might have taken up with the Sons of Honor.
A: It also appears that there may be more Windrunners than there used to be, if an easy two dozen are accompanying the airship. We don’t know how many are squires, but it’s a fair certainty that they wouldn’t send all the qualified Windrunners on this single mission.
Fabrial Technology & Spheres
It wasn’t a ship so much as a gigantic floating platform.
L: The Fourth Bridge is a really cool bit of tech!
A: Yummmmm. I love new tech.
In Urithiru, another group of engineers worked the complex mechanisms that kept this ship in the air. In fact, it used the very same technology that powered spanreeds. When one of them moved, the other moved in concert with it. Well, halves of a gemstone could also be paired so that when one was lowered, the other half—no matter where it was—would rise into the air.
Force was transferred: if the distant half was underneath something heavy, you’d have trouble lowering yours. Unfortunately, there was some additional decay; the farther apart the two halves were, the more resistance you felt in moving them. But if you could move a pen, why not a guard tower? Why not a carriage? Why not an entire ship?
…
Another lattice, secured on the Shattered Plains and connected to chulls, could then be used to make the ship move forward or backward.
A: It’s pretty amazing to see fabrial technology advancing to this level! All the same, the idea that the ship’s power systems are located in Urithiru and on the Shattered Plains… that makes me nervous. It seems too distant, and it feels like it’s putting the Fourth Bridge in danger. If anything goes wrong hundreds of miles away, this clever airship has no way of rescuing itself. I know, those locations are fairly secure—far more so than the lands where they’re flying the beastie. But it still makes me nervous. Even so, it’s quite a daring and innovative expansion of fabrial usage, and I HAVE to applaud that.
Deciding upon a name had taken her months of deliberation. In the end, however, she’d taken inspiration from the bridges that had inspired her. In specific, the one that had—so many months ago—rescued Dalinar and Adolin from certain death, something she hoped this vessel would do for many others in similarly dire situations.
And so, the world’s first air transport had been named the Fourth Bridge. With the permission of Highmarshal Kaladin’s old team, she’d embedded their old bridge in the center of the deck as a symbol.
L: Oh man. My heart!
A: Indeed! I love the callback to the Battle of the Tower at the end of The Way of Kings. It’s easy to forget about that, given how much has happened since, but this brings it all back: Navani painting the enormous Thath glyph (justice) in burn ink and setting fire to it in front of Sadeas, and the stunning moment when Dalinar arrived and confronted him… Yes, Navani has very good reason to put a high value on Bridge Four, and make it the center of her new rescue vehicle.
The easiest method would be to use a larkin—a type of cremling that feasts on Stormlight. That would be wonderful and convenient if the creatures weren’t now almost entirely extinct. The wars in Aimia were in part over these seemingly innocent little creatures.
L: I am always fascinated by the wars in Aimia and live in hope of seeing more about them in flashbacks or something eventually, so this little tidbit was incredibly cool to see!
A: Sometimes I’m amazed when I find out how many people know these little secrets. Then I remember that we just weren’t in the heads of people who would know until now, so… okay, then. I can’t help wondering what more we’re going to learn about Aimia and larkins. Such a tantalizing thing to dangle in front of me!
When in motion, they couldn’t write full instructions—spanreeds had trouble with that. But they could send flashes of light that could be interpreted.
L: Oh, interesting. I wonder what the science behind that is? Maybe because a flash of light is just one tiny brief signal versus a sustained one?
A: Sort of. They depend on stability for one half to mimic the other; if one is in motion beyond the actual writing, the other can’t really match it unless it also is moving in exactly the same direction at the same speed. The gemstone flash is just a pulse, and doesn’t depend on the motion of the gemstone at all. I wonder if they’ve developed something like a Morse code to communicate by flashes; it would be extremely useful!
And there we are, three chapters into the new events and it’s already crazy. Next week we’ll be reading Chapters 4 and 5! Remember, after that first Thursday-evening release, the serialization will be posted on Tuesday mornings. We hope to see you here for more discussion every week until November!
We’ll be leaving most of the speculation to you in the comments, so have fun and remember to be respectful of the opinions of others!
Alice is having a great deal of fun with the new released chapters, and all the resulting discussion. Remember to keep your spoilers here, or hide them behind spoiler tags on other platforms!
Yes, that’s right, Lyndsey dumped Kaladin Stormblessed. In other news, she’s incredibly excited to announce the release of her first full-length novel this Saturday, August 1! Join her at noon EST on her Facebook page for a live stream reading of chapter one and a short Q&A session.
One interesting thing I noticed: Kaladin has changed up his (small-o) oaths- “winds willing” and such.
If the air-barge altitude systems failed, maybe escorting windrunners could lash it upwards enough for only a mild crash? Speaking of which, I wonder if Dalinar could infuse a lashing with stormlight?
They had to perfectly maintain the illusion, as the real Chanasha never let a day go by without reconciling her accounts. She seemed to find it relaxing.
Just on this, I agree that it refers to the actual person (Chanasha) finding it relaxing and it’s Veil commenting on that how odd it is that a person would find such an activity relaxing. It’s not a comment on Shallan or one of the other personas (or this specific disguise).
Also this disguise is not a new person or persona hence why all three of her accepted personas take on different tasks. Veil is probably the dominant one when performing this task because of her typical skills but even Veil has outside preferences that she’d prefer to do.
So basically, Shallan is in complete control of these three “splinters”.
I’ve thought about who would make a good Bondsmith, and Navani and Rlain are my top 2 candidates – Navani is a natural leader who focuses on making things work without any arguing or conflict, and Rlain is in a unique situation where his cousins and his friends are enemies and I could easily see him bonding the Sibling to work on finding a Unity between the two peoples. I would also guess that Taravangian would want to become a Bondsmith, but we’ll have to read more about him before gauging how possible this would be in his current situation.
anyone else flipping out about the “dozen Edgedancers” that are casually mentioned strolling out of the airship?? If they have that many Edgedancers to throw around, and even more Windrunners, I think we might get to know some of the other orders a lot sooner than we imagined …
I can see Lirin going through an existential crisis in much the same way as the Thaylen Admiral at seeing his craft become obsolete. His whole life has been built around his abilities as a surgeon to help people. How will he react when a group of Edgedancers can swoop in and do his job easier and more effectively? I am interested to see where his character goes…
Some things I noticed:
In the time skip, we also have Edgedancers. Plural. More than just Lift, now.
Also, they’ve figured out how aluminum interferes with connection, to help power the Fourth Bride’s flight.
I think we’ll see Navani becoming a new bondsmith, linked to the nightwatcher. If the nightwatcher is the spree of cultivation in the same way the storm father is the spren of honour, it stands to reason the person to bond it would cultivate others in the same way dalinar is honourable. We’ve seen Navani doing just that in this chapter and the prologue! She tends the kingdom for Gavilar like its a garden, unites others in building fabrials, and has a constant eager eye for the future! She’s also not overly sentimental, and has that tone of harshness that’s often associated with nature.
I have a theory that the books are referencing the seven seals of God, the first four of which are the horsemen of the apocalypse. Surebloods death being the first white horse of the conqueror in the storm, the thrill is the second red horse of war, and I believe famine in is third. I think we’ll see a lack of food in Urithiru, starvation, and the return of the sibling bringing food back to the people.
Initial thoughts:
Kaladin got promoted!
Poor Kaladin getting tag-teamed by Syl and Hesina.
Does it surprise anybody that Syl and Hesina get along that well?
EdgedancerS? Plural?
WindrunnerS? Plural?
It’s about time Kaladin got a personal villain beyond “this guy seems like a jerk to me because I don’t understand that he’s being friendly”. I hope he sticks around.
BRIDGE FOUR IS BACK, BABY!
(At the very end) Do I want the defenses to be Dustbringers, or Szeth alone?
Very interesting. This Fused is the fifth variety that we have seen in action, so Kaladin must have encountered 2 more off-page. And could it be that whatever he is doing with his body provided inspiration for the Radiant shardplate? The way his discarded body disintegrates reminds me of damaged and abandoned dead Plate pieces. Also, if a Radiant can use Transportation in a similar manner, they probably wait until they have Plate, to avoid the whole “starkers” issue. And how do the Fused renew their Voidlight? I used to think that they just have a direct Connection to Odium, like the Heralds used to with Honor? Hm…
I am now thinking that maybe Lirin won’t die, because his judgmental attitude would be a sufficient ordeal for Kaladin. Really, he wanted to stay after _this_? It is already amazing that nobody ratted his family out until now.
I also thought that Hearthstone had to have over a thousand inhabitants to qualify as town, plus all the refugees – but they only mention “hundreds” – not very believable and not enough to occupy a surgeon in residence.
Also wow, the test flight of the “Fourth Bridge” is an incredibly risky undertaking, with all the dignitaries on board and reliance on the massive off-board structures. The artifabrians need to learn to use the luckspren/Mandras for true flight. Here is to hoping that no huge catastrophe ensues during the long journey to Urithiru.
The Mink – I pegged him for a Dustbringer, but his sneaking abilities are more in line with Illumination? Also, he is not a friend of the Alethi – maybe he will be a liability, rather than an asset? An intriguing character in any case
Shallan – hm… Progress, I guess? Her personas seem to be slowly amalgamating and hopefully coalescing? Not entirely sure about that. Obviously, there is more for her to remember and it is a good sign that the formerly escapist Veil persona is pushing for it.
Condition of the camps doesn’t make me think highly of Jasnah’s leadership, though. That’s where the desperate Alethi refugees are going to be flooding, and it is a den of predators. I am glad that Ialai Sadeas isn’t yet out as an opponent, so there is a silver lining, I guess.
“She thought, for the briefest moment, she heard a tone in the distance. A pure note vibrating through her.”
When I read this line my mind went immediately to the magic system in WoK Prime (which I just finished a few days ago). I’m sure it’s just reusing themes since Prime isn’t canon, but I can’t help thinking that something is going on with Navani.
OK, this is a fun introduction to RoW. I enjoy how it starts with a battle. I enjoyed Kaladin meeting up with an enemy who is actually threatening: this is refreshing after watching our heroes effortlessly plunged through Odium’s forces in OB.
I made notes on Kaladin presumably suffering from insomnia and I will point out this “issue” has nothing to do with depression. Non-depressive people can suffer from insomnia and it more of an anxiety-related issue than anything else. I’ll be curious to read how accurately Sanderson depicts this given I have suffered from severe insomnia within my younger years.
I was please to her Kaladin has chosen not to live like a monk and actually had a relationship even if it didn’t work out.
I was also glad we didn’t get to read the building/testing/designing process for the airships. This would have bored me to tears, so I am glad they are there: they happened during the time gap. Great! On the matter of the airship, Navani got internally annoyed at Dalinar taking command over her ship… but says nothing. This ties back to my commentary, last week about Navani lacked self-assertiveness. So it wasn’t just Gavilar who arguably was a scum bag, now she is in a relationship with a man she loves and knows respect her, she still cannot make her mind known. That behavior will be problematic: if you are unhappy, you need to say it, but Navani just caves in believing it is somewhat OK because this is how Dalinar is. Yeah. Sure. What about you? This is a behavior that does get on my nerves.
So, it appears Shallan is happily being Veil and Radiant at will though she no longer erases herself in front of them. I dunno if this is progress or not, but it made the whole section more readable than they were back in OB. Of course, being married to Adolin solved nothing. Of course, she told him nothing about herself and this made me desperately want to read Adolin’s viewpoint on the “arrangement”.
Apart from that, Shallan is trying to get captured, Ialai is up to no good. Back in the OB re-read, I argued Ialai was still a threat and had not said her last word: it seems like I was, at the very least, partially right. I am glad she has soldiers with her and she isn’t doing this on her own.
On the side note, Radiants have popped around like bees! I like it, but I really want a discussion on what it means for those who were “left out”, especially is our most famous family. IMHO, that topic needs to be broached and I hope it will.
Warbreaker, Way of Kings Prime and some light general Cosmere spoilers follow
The tone thing with Navani was super interesting to me. For a while now I’ve been trying to piece together some similarities between magics on Roshar and Nalthis.
On Roshar, the color of gemstones, rather than their physical composition, is what determines their nature for Soulcasting, and there’s obviously the rythyms, that aren’t just heard by the singers but seem on some level to be tied to Stormlight itself(in tWoK right after Kaladin swears the second ideal he notes that the pulsing of Stormlight almost seems to be to a beat like the Parshendi singing). Then another layer, the cymatics in the layout of the various silver kingdom capitals, sound/music showing up again.
Over on Nalthis, color obviously ties into Awakening, though there doesn’t seem to be anything specific we’ve seen on which color you’re using. And then with sound, the major religion outside of the court of the gods is the Iridescent Tones, and perfect pitch is one of the abilities granted by possession of enough breath, in addition to enhanced perception of color and the other awakening abilities.
And now we’ve got mention of hearing a ‘tone’ tied to Dalinar’s ability to link realms and pull Stormlight through. It’s all still very loose but it’s interesting to me, and seems like it can’t be all coincidence, that these things keep showing up in both settings. There don’t appear to be these connections to color and sound in any of the other systems we’ve seen in the Cosmere, which makes this even more curious. Is there something that ties Roshar and Nalthis together? Or are these connections just still hidden from us on Scadrial and Taldain and other places?
Or is this possibly just an artifact from early days of the Cosmere. Obviously tWoK Prime isn’t itself canon, and so should probably be ignored in theory crafting the actual published works, but it definitely obvious that parts of it’s magic(the various Knights Epellion, ‘Awakening’, and the soul tones, etc.) were split between SA and Warbreaker as the Cosmere evolved after Mistborn was written. With both planet’s magic systems originating in the same place, maybe these similarities are just a coincidence.
Ok, Lirin is really getting on my nerves. What a self-righteous jerk!
And what about the group of Edgedancers? Yea Lift! Seriously, we need more Edgedancers.
On the new type of Fused: Perhaps this is more like the kind of transportation surge that Willshapers use. We haven’t seen Willshapers in action yet (though I’m sure Venli will demonstrate how she has advanced in the interim). This being Venli’s book, the focus is on the order of Willshapers. I have a crazy feeling The Mink might be a Willshaper. His sneaky disappearance then sudden inexplicable reappearance on the Fourth Bridge is awfully suspicious. It provides a thematic counterpoint to the fight scene between Kaladin and the Fused.
Another theme of this section of the book so far is Fabrial science. Through the epigraphs, we are in the process of learning the art of trapping a spren in a gemstone. Navani has assigned herself the task of repairing the giant fabrial that is Urithiru. She has discovered that The Sibling and its Bondsmith were once needed for the tower to fully function. Part of me thinks that Navani will bond the Sibling and get Urithiru working, but this seems too straightforward. I wonder if she will discover that The Sibling, a Spren, was once trapped inside the giant gem in the center of Urithiru? And that it does not wish to be trapped anymore.
@14 Austin: Oh yeah? What gets on your nerve about Lirin? He’s super rigid, but then again, so is Dalinar.
I’m really interested in the idea of another Bondsmith, but if anyone is going to bond the Nightwatcher my money is currently on Taravangian … everything in his arc speaks to Cultivation, not just in terms of the magical interactions and effect she has had on him but also in terms of his motive. He is a gardener at heart; destroying in order to save what he can (his point of view, not mine).
Has anyone here read the Star Wars novel “Traitor”, by Matthew Stover? There’s a line in there that I keep coming back to when I think of Cultivation and Taravangian:
Taravangian sees the world as his garden. Initially, he hoped to save everyone; as the situation worsens and time moves on, that has contracted to the point where, at the moment, he is willing to trade everyone else in order to secure his people’s survival. “Weeding” out the others competing for resources/life causes pain to him, yes, but from the very first his actions are deliberately aimed at eliminating the barriers to his own people’s survival. I don’t feel any animosity for the weeds in my garden, and I even think some of them are beautiful. But I want my zucchini to flourish, and there’s only so many nutrients in the soil to go around, so anything that might compete is going.
Cultivation, in the end, involves ensuring that your thing grows by preventing others from growing. To clear farmland you chop down trees, to prepare soil you fertilize, to ensure growth you eliminate competing plants, to ensure health you kill pests, to ensure productivity you prune. From a certain point of view, that’s Taravangian’s modus operandi: kill kings and leaders to create a power vacuum, kill the sick to gather knowledge to keep others alive, sacrifice Alethkar to save Kharbranth.
One really interesting tidbit in chapter 3 is that Navani refers to her researchers as “scientists.” Usually they have been called “artefabrians,” or they’re referred to by their roles, like “ardents” or “scribes” or “scholars.” I like how we are seeing signs of the development of a basic research wing of Alethi scholarship. While I am used to Navani referring to herself as an “engineer, ” somehow the word “scientist” feels out of place in this fantasy world, and I love that feeling.
Brandon Sanderson, you continue to push the fantasy genre in such interesting ways. I wonder if the second arc of Stormlight will read more like sci-fi…? That would be such a cool take.
One really interesting tidbit in chapter 3 is that Navani refers to her researchers as “scientists.” Usually they have been called “artefabrians,” or they’re referred to by their roles, like “ardents” or “scribes” or “scholars.” I like how we are seeing signs of the development of a basic research wing of Alethi scholarship. While I am used to Navani referring to herself as an “engineer, ” somehow the word “scientist” feels out of place in this fantasy world, and I love that feeling.
Brandon Sanderson, you continue to push the fantasy genre in such interesting ways. I wonder if the second arc of Stormlight will read more like sci-fi…? That would be such a cool take.
@16 – What bothers me is his holier-than-thou and dismissive attitude toward people who fight, including his own son. Like he’s looking down from his higher plane of existence because he heals rather than kills.
So does the air ship require no Radiants to function? Just fabrials? That’s amazing.
Kaladin and Lyn must have been at least a few months for his mother to have asked after her on multiple visits.
Flashing spanreeds: now if they can make a fabrial that can watch the flashes they are basically wireless optical cables.
First off, anyone else get serious finally fantasy airship vibes reading about the “AirBarge”.
I felt like we needed some type of explanation even if it came off as an infodump about where all these edgedancers and windrunners are coming from. Do we have many of each order now? Are the originals of each order leading their orders. I just felt like I really needed a little more explanation.
I really don’t like Lirin. So judgmental, so sure that his point of view is the only possible right one. His son needs him, but instead of actually being there for his son and supporting him, he just oozes disdain, and disapproval. He can’t get over himself enough to acknowledge that his son is doing good in his own way. Kal is just a big failure to him. Children need to feel “good enough” to their parents even if their life choices don’t match exactly with their views. He kind of seems like the traveling people in the Wheel of Time. Yes violence is horrible, yes we should seek peaceful resolutions and work harder to avoid war. But their comes a time when you must stand up for what you believe in. If all the heroes followed the way of the leaf then the Dark one would have won and human suffering would have increased exponentially.
“The Fourth Bridge”. an absolutely perfect name for the airship and I love that the actual Bridge 4 is the centerpiece
I also was hoping Shallan had moved past this multiple personality thing
Even with a year passing, it seems like none of our radiants have shard plate. Maybe Jasnah?
Regarding the epigraphs, I am a little worried that we are going to see Syl (or another of the sentient spren) get trapped in a gem sometime in this book.
I feel that Dalinar is correct in his “there is only 9 types of fused. and the order that the fused have would not include a “Bondsmith” type character. As the three bondsmiths have one of each of the 3 siblings to bond, the fused don’t have “part” of any God to bond, only Odium. I don’t see Odium giving up that kind of power to anyone….
@13
Both color and sound can be thought of as vibrations. There is at least one phenomenon related to vibrations in the Scadrial magic system: skilled Seekers sense the different abilities as different patterns of vibrations. Also, Taldain’s magic is powered by the white (all colors) sand, which darkens when used, and then lightens again when exposed to investiture.
I think there is definitely something here, and I think it is cosmere-wide.
Austin @20
Lirin reminds me of the Tinkers in WoT. Though most of them aren’t as judgmental about it, and at least some of them accept that the Way of the Leaf isn’t for everyone.
so fun! I decided I’m glad that over a year’s time has passed, I enjoyed having bits thrown in about, say the dating and breaking up, and having the air barge suddenly appearing. love having all the windrunners and edgedancers. (Lift, yay!)
speaking of the air barge, it does feel like it would be easy for the enemy to mess with. yikes. all that talk about the navy now makes me want to have some kind of fabrial submarines, too. not sure how that would fit in or be used, but I’d love to have secret underwater transport, see the creatures down there, etc. although I can’t wrap my head around how that fits with shadesmar…huh.
Lirin seems even more rigid than I remember him. perhaps with all the stress of war he is clinging more and more firmly to his beliefs in desperation of sorts, just to hold onto SOMETHING. it feels a little off, to me.
I find Syl even more adorable.
Despite the Mink’s history with the Alethi, I was originally thinking that this was not a good time to be pointing out the bad blood between him and the people rescuing him. Then, he got to the point of insisting they rescue his troops, and it made sense. He was making it clear from the start that it would take more than this to make him feel indebted to them. It was a negotiation technique.
My respect went up several notches. He’s been on the run for who knows how long in enemy territory, the whole rescue thing could have gone south if Kaladin hadn’t won a fight with a guy who teleports, they’re evacuating an entire community of refugees, and he’s already seeing how he can turn this into a rescue of more people, ones he may have had to accept for weeks he could no longer help. Five seconds on the ship and he’s approaching the people in charge and starting negotiations from the first word out of his mouth without their even realizing that’s where he’s going with this.
Which goes further and shows how he has the principles of the fourth ideal that Kaladin still needs to reach. When the enemy may have been on to them and everything may have been about to fall apart, he took necessary action by escaping. But, he is still focused on saving others lives, seeing an opportunity as soon as it presents itself and moving effectively to exploit it.
Sorry if I’m going on, but I’m just in awe. It’s hard to make fictional generals really come across as a combination of the brilliance, effective leadership, and sometimes ruthlessness that requires. But, it’s all here underlying a few actions in a believable, convincing way. I’m also seeing why the Mink is an effective leader. He can make the hard, necessary choices but he also has his troops’ back.
Excuse me, I think I need to go find a fan club.
Lots of good stuff. Really enjoyed these chapters. Many of my thoughts echo those of others –
Lirin and the adminral are supposed to be foils, seeing their worlds falling apart/moving on – but I see them as having different outlooks on it – the admiral is exited about the future, while Lirin is (as @27 says) holding on in desparation to have a semblance of control in the face of oppressive reality diametrically opposed to his stated beliefs.
I am really liking Navani in these chapters and the previous ones – it is one of my favorite things about the structure of these books and the way Brandon is writing it – where he sets our expectations and feelings about a character, then in the next book he completely undermines that expectation as new info or allowing us to see more from a certain characters viewpoint sheds new light. (Some of this can of course be retconning to a certain degree, as he comes up with new challenges and plot choices or simply fleshes out the world, as he grows the narrative, but I think in Navani’s case, she has always been there, but reticent to speak up as per her traditional enculturation, as Gepeto gets at.) The prologue is the best example of this as he uses the same event to slowly tease the full background of what is going on, but then also lets us see through different eyes that allow us to have greater views on specific characters, their motiviations, insights, and growth arcs.
On Navani though – I can see both arguments for her becoming a bondsmith or a dustbringer…can’t decide which would be cooler. RAFO I guess.
As for one specific thought/reaction –
This struck me as kinda a reverse “manifestation” (like Shallan and brick wall) just happening in the physical realm instead of the cognitive realm. Dunno how it works with realmatic theory, but that’s how I thought about it when reading – pulling the physical essence into the cognitive realm for a moment, then reasserting it. Thus, it might not have to do with a specific surge, but simply application of cognitive abilities upon the physical similar to spren who can move back and forth across that barrier in certain ways…
Maybe the Fused is using Surges to create a new body, and that zipping red light is just how they look when they exist in disembodied form?
“It’s long been theorized that Kaladin’s Fourth Ideal will be something along the lines of letting go of those he can’t save, and this is as direct an example as you can get.”
This is so much gentler than what I guessed the 4th Ideal would be. I thought all the hints about the inhumanity of Honor were pointing at something along the lines of “you must be willing to kill your loved ones when Honor demands it” as a natural escalation over the 3rd ideal re: protecting hated enemies.
Who else thinks that Lirin is still going to refuse to leave Hearthstone? First, it seems that the airship will not be able to take everyone … aren’t there thousands of refugees in Hearthstone now? And Second, I think he now feels a responsibility to the Singers and will want to stay and take care of Singers and additional refugees.
@20: Yeah, he does come across this way, but I will admit I do understand where he comes from. It is not easy, being a parent, and seeing your gifted child choose a career path you personally consider is below his talents. The real-life analogy would be the highly-paid successful surgeon who sees his highly talented, high achieving son drop out of school to work on car mechanics at the neat-by garage. While all kids deserve the chance to be happy and to make their own ways in life, some choices are harder to digest, on the parental side, than others. There are sure choices my kids could make I would struggle, as a person, to accept, so I think I can relate to Lirin here.
Hence, I do understand how Lirin, seeing surgery as a higher calling, certainly one requesting higher capacities, being shoved back to the profit of… soldering, the one profession he has very little respect for. Lirin finds all warfare is useless and, usually, made for petty reasons and he is not wrong here… just he struggles to adapt himself to the one war actually worth fighting for.
Side note, the Mink confirms Dalinar’s old troops have been raping his people… I recall this had been a matter of discussion, whether or not Dalinar really allowed his men to rape the conquered people. Well, looks like he did.
Another side note, I think those chapters help to cement the famous grouping for RoW. Navani, Kaladin, Lirin, and potentially Dalinar (he could still be group 3) within group 1. Venli will probably join them at some point in time. Group 2 definitely sounds like it will focus on Shallan and Adolin.
It’s interesting to me that the Gravitation Fused would always accept if Kaladin challenged them to single combat. Makes me think that they might also have to swear oaths of some kind to access their powers. Probably not the same ones as the Radiants, but an entire Order of Fused demonstrating that kind of rigidity and other types not having that? It seems odd.
I don’t think we can confidently state who the Nightwatcher’s Bondsmith will be – I’m expecting an Aimian in the end, since they’re closely associated with Cultivation. That said, I could see either Navani or Taravangian as the Bondsmith to the Sibling, depending on its nature and what was done to it, as well as how their character arcs go in the future. As far as Rlain goes, I’m pegging him as a Truthwatcher. That seems much more in keeping with his status as the last (known) surviving Listener, discounting Venli. I do think we’ll eventually get another Parsh as a Bondsmith, likely succeeding Dalinar as the Stormfather’s. That would give us a Parsh, an Aimian, and a human, corresponding to Honor, Cultivation, and Odium/Passion.
Thanks for the excellent summary, Alice and Lyn.
@24 Samadai
I think you’re correct about Bondsmiths being the missing equivalent order in the Fused. There’s symmetry in the theory that satisfies my OCD nature. The one potential fly-in-the-ointment I can imagine may be if a Fused could bond an Unmade (B-A-M or Sja-Anat, for instance) to become Bondsmith-like. But then what would the missing order be if Dalinar is correct about only 9 orders (and I believe he is)?
Oh, and on the third ideal: letting people go that can’t be protected is a possibility, but given the specifics of Kaladin’s arc and how … althorian he can be at times about “his” people dying, I’d bet it’s more focused on respecting the choices of those who decide to leave his protection, instead of paternalisticly trying to keep them encased in bubblewrap at all times. Ie, you’re not really an honorable protector unless the people you’re protecting *want* that protection.
as far as 9 orders of fused instead of 10, I think has more to do with the 16 shards of (can’t think of the name andolusenium???), I suspect each shard had a different number associated with it: 9=odium, 10=honor, ???=cultivation.
Adding on to everyone else reacting to the plural Edgedancers and Windrunners… same! I was shocked how casually the numerous new Radiants were just dropped upon us. Still is taking some getting used to…
What bothers me about Lirin is (like others have said) his really judgemental single-view perspective. He doesn’t seem willing to acknowledge that fighting is sometimes necessary. and that it’s not easy for Kaladin to kill but he’s still the most equipped for the job of saving people so he does it. I worry after seeing Lirin’s perspective and his interactions with both Kaladin and Dalinar that his view is so single-minded toward just being a surgeon and saving both sides that he might be influenced by Odium if he can be convinced that a surrender of the good guys will have fewer people dying… He’s certainly set up as a foil for Kaladin moving forward, I just really hope he doesn’t become an actual antagonist.
I’m intrigued by many of you’s perspective on Navani and becoming the next Bondsmith… I never saw her in that light, mainly because being Dalinar’s wife, it seemed to predictable/easy of a pairing. But I get the reasons why it would make sense. I agree with @12 Gepeto that Navani lacks self-assertiveness, as even with Dalinar, who would certainly pause and listen to her and loves her dearly, she chooses not to speak up and just feel upset internally. And she still has the lingering self-doubts about her not being a “real scientist” even after being integral in all the new technology (SKY BOATS!)
Based on the prologue and one of the first chapters already being about her, I assume we’ll be getting a lot more of her POV in this book, so I’m excited for what that will show us.
@33 Gilphon – I think the acceptance of 1-1 challenge is more tied to the Singers culture and fighting style/code than about oaths they swear. Radiant oaths are tied to Honor, who’s all about dem Oaths. I get the impression the Fused don’t swear anything to Odium more than agreeing to be on his side at some point.
SHALLAN!! NO!! I’m glad she thinks she’s healthy and stable now, and for a moment she seemed to be functioning better… but then her past peaked in and she hid and had Veil take over. Her comfort in what she’s become is only more worrisome and indicative of a big collapse at some point later… and I was really hoping her moment with Wit in that shack was going to help her get better.
@37 – Adonalsium. And we’ve seen that certain Shards have a chosen affinity for certain numbers (16 is a natural Cosmere number), not that the numbers are necessarily tied to the Shard’s Intent. Honor liked 10, and Odium seems to prefer 9.
It’s amazing how fast you can find new Radiants when Nale isn’t killing them all before they can swear Oaths
These chapters were another useful reminder that under any other circumstances, the Alethi would be the bad guys.
Dalinar tries to dismiss his people’s war crimes as “past squabbles”. He’s trying to change, but in so many ways he remains an Alethi warlord. He also notices Lirin’s refusal to grovel properly, as though there was anything worth respecting about Alethi murderocracy.
I’m more than a little skeptical about Dalinar, but it’s nice to see Navani getting the respect she deserves. She downplays her role as a mere “manager” of greater scholars, but bringing the right people together and getting them to cooperate is most of what a leader does. She may not be a great ardent, but she directs great ardents and enables them to accomplish exceptional things.
“Navani would have preferred to bring Isasik, but he was off on one of his mapping expeditions, this time to the eastern part of the Shattered Plains.”
Prediction: Isasik is going to find the batch of “Lost” Listeners; the ones lead by Eshonai’s second-in-command (help with name?) that refused Stormform. Remember, there are no throw-away sentences in Brandon’s world, and this one was just a little too particularly placed imo, and not just for the shout-out to Isaac.
@17 Andrew: Two things, first I agree that Navini becoming The Sibling’s Bondsmith is a little too on the nose for the plot right now. And I love your theory on Taravangian bonding Nightwatcher for all the well thoughtout reasons you mentioned; however because of T’s deal with Odium, would Cultivation allow that? Could she prevent it?
@22 stormbrother: “He kind of seems like the traveling people in the Wheel of Time.” Yes! I was just thinking that when you said it. Not that I think it’s intentional, but you have a great take on pacifism.
@39 – Does Odium like nine, or one? I feel like I’ve seen a lot of “nine and one” hidden inside all the tens in Stormlight – the Bondsmiths stand out from the rest of the Radiants; Taln is the “unintended” Herald, and also the only one to stand for the oath; there are hints of a traitor among the Heralds which would give us a different “nine and one”; all the Oathgates are locked except the one at Natanatan; there are nine Unmade, but there’s some other entity that’s kind of Unmade-ish; all the orders disbanded except the Skybreakers…
Nice use of the interrobang!
Not much to add for this lovely couple chapters. But I will say that I was super surprised to find out that there’s even more to uncover about Shallan’s story. I foolishly believed that Shallan’s mommy murder was the last secret that she was hiding from herself. So what is it? Will she be forced to confront that her life before her mother dying wasn’t nearly as peachy as she conveys? What about abuse? If she follows form then something broke her in her childhood, something traumatic that wasn’t her mom’s death. I’m patiently waiting for that reveal.
The way Brandon casually discussed what happened during the time between the end of OB and the start of RoW is effective. I figured a writer of Brandon’s talent would parcel out these tidbits throughout RoW. I also think he will do it in such a way that it is not an infodump. Through Chapters 2 and 3, my hunch is correct so far.
My guess is that the Fused Kaladin was fighting in Chapter 2 used the surge of Cohesion. Or perhaps Kaladin’s initial guess of Elsecalling was correct. I do not understand why Kaladin did not bring some of his squires with him. I also hope that the Fused did not inject some sort of tracking mechanism when he stabbed Kaladin. I would not like to see that as part of the plot. They may have helped in the fight. Even though the Windrunners eventually came, I still think Kaladin should have had at least 1 or 2 squires
A great Brandon throw-away line. Adolin is giving Syl fashion tips. I wonder when Syl overcame her general dislike of dead-spren Shardholders to have a separate conversation with Adolin? Perhaps it had something to do with how Syl saw Adolin respecting Maya when they were in Shadesmar
I guess Shallan does not have her split personalities under control as much as I would have hoped as of the end of OB. But it appears she is making a bit of progress. Hopefully, heading in the right direction. It is progress that Shallan did not create a 4th new persona for Chanasha Hasareh; rather she is using that name as a real cover.
I am glad to see that Shallan is expanding her operations to go after other secret societies; and smart enough (or at least ordered) to have (hopefully) competent back-up. Ialai. I never thought she would go away quietly never to return again. I wonder why some of the other Highprinces who had yet to move into Urithiru by the end of OB had not taken control of the warcamps instead of Ialai. Although, Ialai is probably more intelligent and competent than those Highprinces.
I enjoy the snarky banter between Syl and Kaladin; almost as much as I enjoy the snarky banter among Shallan’s 3 personalities. And in Chapter 3 we have snarky banter between Dalinar and Navani. How cool.
Wow. Kaladin was dating Lyn. I did not see that coming. Lyndsey, what did you think of this when she first read it in her Beta read. I think Kaladin is destined to be a bachelor for his life. I cannot see him letting go enough to be in a long-term committed relationship. Also, I hope Lyn’s Unit was not under Kaladin’s direct command. From her title in Chapter 3, I think she is a KR; not just a squire. I wonder if “WIndrunner” is a title for a 3rd Oath KR. If so, what do they call a squire. Still, even if Lyn is only a Squire, she better not have reported to Kaladin. A superior should not date his/her employee/charge/soldier. It causes trouble not just for the both of them, but the entire unit/division.
In Chapter 3 we finally get some evidence as to why Elhokar leaned towards the Lightweavers. He was attracted to Navani’s drawings. He probably had some artistic inclinations as well.
Kaladin got quite the promotion. From Captain to Highmarshal. I wonder if Kaladin is grumpier the more rank he has.
I am glad that Team Honor increased its number of Knights Radiant significantly. It would have been implausible if they did not. And there is no way they could have kept things at a standstill with the Team Odium.
Dalinar, the walking Rosharian re-charging station. That is a great power. I wonder if Navani thinking she could see into Shadesmar and hearing that sound is the beginning of her making a connection with a spren. Navani would make an excellent Releaser.
Alice and Lyndsey. There is one broader Cosmere connection you missed. The use of aluminum for part of the Fourth Bridge. I wonder if Team Honor knows the significance of aluminum or if it was just coincidence they used it. I think they do know the significance. Maybe Kaladin mentioned that the Wall Guard used aluminum to protect the use of the Soulcaster.
Thanks for reading my musings.
AndrewHB
aka the musespren
Edited after I read Alice and Lyndsey’s commentary. Lyndsey. Thanks for giving us your opinions on Lyn and Kaladin dating.
@38: bridge4, I think people are quick to blame others for their own personal problems and I do include myself here. Take Navani, it was far easier to internally be angry at Gavilar, to rationalize talking to him wouldn’t change things, to hang up on the belief she could have become a great scholar while making sure she spends so much time micro-managing her kitchen she literally has no time for it.
It is easier to make up excuses for why things are the way they are then it is to take action on solving why they keep happening. It is easier because we then do not have to face failure or rejection. When you are self-assertive, you will make your mind known, but the downside is other people may not like it, may shut you out for it, may not be sympathetic to your plights. It is a risk you have to take as an individual and it obviously is one Navani is not willing to take, even in a relationship with a man who respects her.
In a way, Navani is lucky because on the day she will find enough strength to be self-assertive, others will cluster to her, give her hugs, sympathize with her, give her support: no one will shun her down for being herself. Real-life isn’t like that, but this is fantasy, it doesn’t have to be real.
@45: EvilMonkey, I think the past problems Shallan was referring to was her mother’s murder… I took it it meant she hadn’t progressed at all since OB, but found a balance where she no longer is spiraling downwards. The real-world equivalent would the sick person who’s OK because they take pills, but the pills are not solving the problems. This is like when I had insomnia, the pills made me sleep, but they did not solve why I wasn’t sleeping in the first place. That part, I had to do by myself. Shallan, I think, is right there: she needs to deal, she is delaying because she is comfortable in the balance she found, she is reluctant to overthrow it, but she cannot spend a lifetime living like this.
@47: Good point about Syl apparently no longer hating Adolin. She did hate him before, so maybe there is more to this. Or not. I guess we’ll have to RAFO.
I also enjoyed the insights on Elhokar enjoying his mother’s drawings. This is a nice touch to add in the story.
I personally would guess that the surge the Fused don’t have access to is Transformation. That would also fit in the context of Vorinism where their name for god is Elithanathile “He Who Transforms.” I don’t really have anything else to support this idea, but the thought of Fused soulcasting seems off.
Numerous comments @above. I may be in the minority, but I if Navani becomes any Knight Radiant, she will be a Releaser. She enjoys knowing how things work, dow to their core level. Yet she has the necessary internal controls to control the great power the of the Division surge the Releasers possess.
At the request of the Releasers, I refuse to use the name Dustbringer. The “d” word is the Voldermort of the Knights Radiant – the name which shall not be used.
Gepeto @12. There are many different causes or reasons for insomnia. Anxiety is one reason. Another reason is an active mind (where the sleeper constantly thinking, be it serious stuff or mundane stuff). I have trouble sleeping. Some nights I cannot fall asleep for at least an hour. I constantly am thinking of all sorts of stuff. I had trouble sleeping because I kept thinking about the parts of WoR I read before I went to sleep. Just because anxiety may have been the cause of your insomnia, does not mean that all cases of insomnia are caused by anxiety.
“Of course, being married to Adolin solved nothing.” How can you make that statement after only 3 chapters? It is possible that Adolin helped her reach the understanding she has with her personalities (how they “get along with each other”). In OB, Shallan was using her personnas independently of each other. I get that you do not like Shallan as a character and feel she is not good enough for Adolin (one of, if not your favorite Stormlight character). But it appears to me you are using your dislike of Shallan to make definitive statements after just one Shallan scene. I might also remind you that the text clearly states she is undertaking this operation with backup. Adolin soldiers are following Shallan. Further, I believe Adolin himself is following. At least he is close enough that Pattern can warn Adolin if Shallan gets in too much trouble where she needs extraction.
Austin @14. I agree with you on Lirin. I did not like Lirin in WoK. I like him even less in the first 3 chapters of RoW.
Gepeto @16. Although you did not address this question to me, I will give you my reasons why. He is pretentious. (“Any idiot with hands can hold a spear. I trained your hands for something better.”) What a jerk. Why should Lirin decide what Kaladin should do with his life? Kaladin is his one person. If being a surgeon was not enough for Kaladin, then Kaladin has the right to be what he wants. In Kaladin’s current role, he is able to save more people than had he been a surgeon. Also, I think Lirin is downgrading soldiers. He is wrong. It takes more than just picking up a weapon to use it properly. A properly trained soldier can save lives. Lirin chose to ignore that Kaladin did not want to harm the Warform singers. He told them to leave. Yet they attacked him. What was Kaladin supposed to do? Let the Singers kill him. As it was, he tried to neutralize their weapons rather than kill them.
Gepeto @32. No. Mink’s statement is not confirmation that Dalinar allowed his troops to rape the conquered people. Mink is an unreliable narrator. First, ha can be lying. He knows that the Blackthorn had a vicious reputation. He is using that reputation to make up things that Dalinar did not order. Second, Mink may be repeating false rumors that were said about Dalinar. He might accept them as true. Third, the Alethi may have raped Herdazian women. However, these may not have been Dalinar’s men. Perhaps they were Sadeas’ or some other Highprinces. To Mink, one Alethi is the same as all Alethi. Fifth, Dalinar’s men may have raped Herdazians. Yet, that does not mean Dalinar automatically ordered the rape of the women or condoned it. Perhaps Dalinar found out about the rape and punished the perpetrators.
You should not make such definitive statements when you have only read a tiny portion of the book. You want to say you think that Mink was right (and Dalinar ordered his men to rape Herdazian women). Fine. That is an opinion/guess. You might be right; you might be wrong. But Mink’s unilateral statement (without Dalinar even having the right to defend himself) does not mean that Mink’s statement is correct.
Thanks for reading my musings.
AndrewHB
aka the musespren
Like everyone else, I’m curious about this new type of Fused.
It might be time, Veil whispered. To remember, once and for all. Everything.
I was a little confused by this, because I thought Shallan had remembered everything about her past.
I love Hesina and Syl tag-teaming Kaladin!
“By the Three Gods,” whispered one of them
Have we heard anything about the Herdazian religion before? I’m wondering if the Three Gods in question are Honor, Cultivation, and Odium.
Any idiot with hands can hold a spear.
Lirin does come off as kind of unlikeable here, at least to me. It feels like he’s being condescending to Kaladin because he’s taken up something that isn’t what we’d think of as a “white-collar” profession. Someone upthread made the analogy of a doctor who disapproves of his son wanting to be a car mechanic, and that seems pretty apt.
Plus, he hasn’t shown any empathy yet for Kaladin’s emotional state. We know he’s aware that psychiatric conditions exist, since we saw him putting a refugee on suicide watch in the previous chapter. If he can spot depression in some guy he met two minutes ago, how can he not see it in his own son?
“I assumed you would take your son’s house name,” Dalinar said.
Lirin is of a relatively high dahn on account of being a surgeon, right? Would he and Hesina not have already had a surname of their own?
“I tried infusing that pillar,” Dalinar said. “It didn’t work.”
I love all these indications that the characters haven’t just been standing still for a year. The airship and dozens of Radiants are grand things, but sometimes it’s the smaller details that really give the story some extra punch. Just an offhand mention of “we tried a thing but it didn’t work” still shows that they’re all planning and building and experimenting, and it feels more realistic that not everything is going to work on the first try.
Got some first aid cream for that burn?
I love the sarcastic way Mink says this. And I wonder if he was trying to guilt-trip Dalinar into rescuing the remaining Herdazian resistance fighters? (I think Current Dalinar would have done that anyway, but Mink doesn’t know that…)
Are we going to see a new Bondsmith in this book? Are we? ARE WE? So exciting! Who could it possibly be, if so? SPECULATE AWAY IN THE COMMENTS!
My money’s on Rlain. Any sort of lasting peace on Roshar is going to depend on reckoning with what was done to the parshmen. A Singer bondsmith would be in a perfect position to work towards a reconciliation between Singers and humans.
@Gepeto
I think you are being a little too harsh regarding Navani. You take a hard stance on most of our beloved characters. It’s cool. I’m willing to spar with you on it as it makes for lively discussion, please don’t take it as a criticism. I’m sure everyone on the boards is used to it by now. But anyway, Navani. I’m not sure how her relationship with Gavilar started but its crystal clear to me that she’s been emotionally abused by the conclusion of that marriage. Emotional scars take far longer to heal than mere physical ones. It would have been unrealistic for her to have banished the accumulated emotional baggage obtained from a 20 year married just because she’s now with a better man. And it’s not like Dalinar hasn’t hurt her too. Remember his breakdown in OB when the Thrill returned to him? I have confidence Navani will work on her issues and get better. I don’t expect her progress to be linear or swift.
Re:Shallan
Veil’s comment implies to me that Shallan’s issues go beyond the mommy murder. I’m sure it has something to do with it but it cannot be all of it. She cannot shuffle away from the fact that she killed her mom but she can shuffle from whatever Veil is talking about. She hasn’t backslid; Pattern is still with her and she can still craft Illusion. The fact that Veil/Shallan is even able to pose the question indicates to me that she’s close to progressing and becoming the first Radiant on the page to achieve full Radiance.
@Nina
Lirin was able to catch a fairly obvious case of shock / traumatic stress response in someone he approached in a diagnostic context. Even aside from the fact that Lirin has probably never had anything prompt him to look at Kaladin with an eye towards a mental diagnosis, chronic depression is quite different from what Lirin caught here, and this isn’t confirmation that he recognizes chronic mental illnesses like Kaladin’s, as opposed to disordered or maladaptive reactions to trauma. Now, don’t get me wrong; Hesina is clearly better at empathizing with and supporting Kaladin and Lirin’s behavior is well worth criticizing. I just don’t think we should necessarily expect him (or anyone other than maybe a Herald or someone else from a much more medically developed society) to be able to formally diagnose Kaladin’s depression in the way that we would, anymore than we would expect people to recognize Renarin’s autism.
@50: Andrew, not falling asleep for an hour is pretty much my everyday life: it is much better than real insomnia… When I had real insomnia, I would freak out over not sleeping, I would get angry and I would fall inside this endless loop. I ended up being afraid of going to bed, as the time came, I felt “the vibe”, this feeling I would not sleep. I called it “The Monster under the Bed”.
When I did therapy, the endless thoughts you mentioned were usually driven by a form of anxiety: you can’t let go of what you heard. One woman got so unnerved hearing the news she couldn’t sleep at all. In my case, it was driven by performance anxiety. I don’t recall all they said, in the therapy, it was a long time ago, but most cases seemed driven by one form of anxiety or the others. I guess other cases are also possible.
Still, I’ll be curious to see how it evolves with Kaladin.
About Adolin solving nothing: I was echoing Alice and Lyndsey who implied the same in their review. Based on this chapter, Shallan has not progressed much from the ending of OB. She found an arrangement she likes with Veil/Radiant, but she is still relying on them. She still refuses to think about her past. She still cannot face it. So yes, I would argue being married to Adolin solved nothing, not that I expected it would, but it was a theory some readers had. He was supposed to be her “anchor” and everything? Well, it doesn’t seem, based on this short chapter, like it did much good, but yeah, we a re still early, things can change. So can my thoughts.
You read me wrong. I actually like Shallan, it was her narrative in OB I disliked, with good reasons, not the character. I also always wanted her to be with Adolin: I never thought she was not “good enough for him”. I think she could be really good for him, but first, she needs to get rid of Veil/Radiant.
I do not see where I am making some groundbreaking statement. Shallan found what she believes is a balance. I doubt other people would think of it as a balance. I am curious to hear what Adolin thinks of it because I am convinced what Shallan believes is balance, downright sounds crazy to other people. Yes, Adolin is following. We’ll probably see him soon, hence my desire to hear what he thinks of this “arrangement” between his wife’s multiple personalities: he married Shallan, not Veil nor Radiant. His opinion on the matter really is the one I want to hear because I don’t think Shallan is being very reliable on how wonderful this arrangement is.
On Lirin, as I said, I can see where he comes from. Soldering is about the worst possible career for him. Does he have a blind spot when it comes to it? Sure. My point is we all have our blindspots. Going off to kill people with a spear when you could have been a surgeon would be a tough pill to swallow for many parents. And yeah, killing with a spear demands far less talent and training than surgery: this is a fact. A lot of people can be soldiers, not a lot of people can become surgeons. Does he have the right to decide for Kaladin? Nope. But he has the right to have an opinion. He does not have to agree with his son’s decision.
On Dalinar: I have said it before, I hardly doubt the Alethi wars were so spotted clean the soldiers pillage no towns and raped no women. So yes, I do believe the Mink. He referred to the Blackthorn, he inferred the Blackthorn has invaded Herdaz. Why would he make that up? Dalinar was a warlord. This is highly plausible. Maybe I am wrong, but wars are not clean. Wars are dirty. Alethi have a bad reputation. I do not think there is no solid ground basis for it.
@52: EvilMonkey, of course, I take a hard stance, if I didn’t take a hard stance, then there would be no purpose to the discussion. Hard stances are what make reading interesting, at least, it does to me.
Look at this thread: a lot of readers are taking a hard stance on Lirin. I kind of understand Lirin, I don’t feel so harshly about him. Other behaviors trigger me. That’s just who I am, I do not know how to be someone else. I have my own baggage and yeah, some behaviors will make me react opposite of other people. I just do not have the same life experience as other people, I react differently, so yes what I perceived as a lack of self-assertiveness, does annoy me. Will it annoy me for 1000 pages? I don’t know. Did Navani suffer emotional abuse? Maybe, but the refusal to speak up is a behavior that triggers my personal buttons.
I don’t think Dalinar really hurt Navani during his break-down… She mostly felt sorry for him, but hurt?
You may be right about Shallan, I just took it she was still thinking of the same old issue, but maybe I am wrong. Those were just my thoughts at the moment.
@50 AndrewHB
Once again, we have the obligatory reminder that Dalinar was in fact a warlord. He murdered huge numbers of people for crimes such as “having things his brother wanted” or “getting in his way”.
Dalinar spent most of his adult life constructing piles of corpses, including Herdazian corpses, in the course of unjust wars of conquest designed to make a malevolent narcissist into the King of Alethkar. The fact that he has chosen to forgive himself does not mean that others are obligated to trust or forgive him.
@51 Nina
There is an element of professional snobbery in Lirin’s dislike of soldiers, but there’s a much more important principle. Lirin doesn’t just not want Kaladin to have a lower-class occupation like a farmer or a servant; he wants his son to not be a soldier like the people who murdered Tien.
Lirin doesn’t buy into Alethi ideas about “glorious” battle, and he knows that wars tend to involve conscripts murdering each other for the benefit of the ruling class. He doesn’t want his son to be cannon fodder for the Blackthorn.
I’m really relating to Navani here. First, that tidbit about Ehlokar broke my heart. Second, there’s this tough outer image she projects vs the insecurities she hides. Dalinar thinks of her as being “a sour storm of a woman,” which is possibly the best compliment I’ve ever read, and that she’s been breaking hearts and customs since her youth. And that’s part of who she is. But she’s also accumulated a thousand little habits and doubts that have also become part of her.
For years, she threw herself into the role of being Gavilar’s logistical manager to keep the kingdom running smoothly. Probably it grew gradually until she reached the point she was at when we saw her in the prologue. Her relationship with her children has suffered–I’m pretty sure Jasnah saw what happened to her mother as an excellent reason to avoid marriage, and I’m not sure how much sympathy she has for Navani, especially since Navani worked hard to ensure that her children still felt loved by their father, and how much Jasnah admires him. Navani grew used to being the responsible one, to being slighted and overlooked, to thinking and even joking about being just a patron and not a real creator. When you throw yourself into a role like that so thoroughly and for so long, it’s hard to leave it. In a way, it becomes who you are. Even if you hate it. Even when it’s no longer necessary.
So here she is. Assertive on the outside, biting her tongue on the inside. Because she doesn’t rock the boat. She doesn’t insist on being treated better. After all, she knows Dalinar loves and respects her. It’s not worth it to insist that he defer to her unimportant whims. Just let it go, keep moving.
It’s an unhealthy pattern, and one I’ve struggled with. It’s also not something you see a lot of in fantasy, mostly because fantasy protagonists tend to be younger. And I get why, because young people are interesting, less formed and with a lot of potential to change. But it’s really good to see a middle-aged woman with all the accumulated wisdom and baggage of a long life sharing space with characters like Kaladin and Shallan.
I am also thinking, based on Lirin’s thoughts last chapter, that there’s something in his past that’s shaped his disdain towards being a soldier / killer more than snobbery, fatherly disappointment, or a general desire to see more helping and less killing in the world. Something that impacted him as deeply as Kaladin’s experiences. I hope we get to find out. I also find it amusing that he shows the same just short of insolence to the high and mighty that got Kaladin called out in WoR. They’re so much more alike than they are different, and I just hope they get a chance to discover that.
On Kaladin’s insomnia–there are a lot of reasons a person with depression might not be able to sleep. Sometimes I want, desperately, to sleep but I cannot. It’s worse when there’s nothing wrong, because when something is wrong I can latch onto it as the reason. It’s not fun, but at least I know why it’s happening. When nothing’s wrong but I can’t sleep anyway, I’ll find myself looking for wrong things. Just for the comfort of having an explanation. And I’ll get exasperated with myself, remind myself how much worse things could be. Like a lot of things with Kaladin, I find myself just knowing exactly how this feels, exactly what this is.
Can we call these new fused Night Crawlers! That’s the first thing I thought of reading this awesome scene.
Surprised none of the windrunners lashed the barge. Wouldn’t that be a way of speeding it up? Use aluminum on the other gemstones so you don’t throw the chulls across the shattered planes. You have Dalinar the Energizer Bondsmith so stormlight isn’t a factor. Are they worried about storm light attracting voidspren still? Or worried it would go to fast for the structure/people to handle? Or is it just too storm light intensive at that scale? Curious as we we explore the mechanical side of this world.
As others have said, I saw Shallan’s comment on seemed to enjoy it to be her opinion on the original person she is impersonating and trying to mimic, not an internal split.
I think there was a word of Brandon that said people saw the orders as 50% Cultivation and 50% Honor which could explain why each order has two surges. Odium is all on his own so his special forces just get one surge. While Bondsmith is the obvious guess as to what order is missing or natural opposite of the Unmade, I agree its not clear which surge they would be missing.
All these mentions of Larkins and Aimia already are getting me excited for the Kickstarter Novella!
I also loved the time jump. I was worried he was going to do a jump to justify why all our heroes were in trouble. I feel too many authors use a time jump as an excuse to cause problems to tread the same character ground over again, especially with romantic relationships, can they rekindle their love, etc. So far I like where everyone is. Feels naturally without us skipping over any key developments. As long as Shallan and Adolin are in decent shop and we can watch all significant developments on page, positive or negative, I will be happy. Just don’t want cheap drama. Brandon’s got to earn it on page.
Re: Dalinar
He has two reputations going for him in his Blackthorn incarnation. He was the next best thing to a weapon of mass destruction. He was also, by Alethi standards, honorable to a fault. The problem is that the first one often overshadows the second due to the fear he inspired in his enemies. We have seen how the man approached both battles and their aftermath. I for one do not believe he directed his soldiers to rape anyone or deliberately pillage populaces. But he is one general and he fought another nation. My point is he’s only on one battlefield at a time. So during the Herdaz campaign I’m sure there was some questionable activity taking place. I just don’t believe that it happened on Dalinar’s watch. I can imagine it for Sadeas commands and some other highprinces but not the Blackthorn. For any herdazian who was the victim of such attacks it would have made no difference however. He’s the face of the Alethi war effort whenever they fight so he’s going to be blamed for any abuses that take place at the hands of the Alethi armies. As the highest ranking General, that’s just his lot.
The Mink is a general himself, he knows the game as much as anyone. I’m sure there were abuses committed by his forces as well. That’s why I think it’s more negotiating ploy than moralizing from on high. Until Roshar drafts a Geneva Convention type contract it will ever be so.
I was actually shipping Kaladin and Lyn several months ago, and the thought made me happy because their ship name would be “Kalalyn.” And now they’ll have to get back together in order for that ship to sail.
@56 – Wasn’t there a bit in OB from Navani’s perspective that mentioned she had trouble parenting Jasnah from a relatively early point (like 6ish)? I’ll have to reread to get a better picture of Elhokar’s view of his mother, but I think that relationship was probably hurt more by Alethi cultural expectations than anything Navani was doing, just like almost all of Elhokar’s problems. Jasnah seems to have had almost the opposite problem, given how well she’s implied to have taken to the crown, but of course her issues with Alethi culture would have caused much more of an issue for her relationship with Navani, who at least appears to fit fairly well into Alethkar’s gender and social constructs.
Some more thoughts:
Shouldn’t Shalash know, at least in general terms, how Urithiru used to function? Why are they still in the dark about it? And come to think of it – Kaladin doesn’t seem to reminisce about Skybreakers being a problem either, when he thinks about all that they have learned fighting the Fused during that year. So, did the Heralds spend that year in coma, or?
Having seen Lirin’s treatment of Kaladin, now that his “golden boy” has disappointed him, I have to wonder again about how Tien must have felt when it became clear that he couldn’t become his father’s apprentice. Surely, some of the same attitude must have slipped through. I have mentioned previously in the re-read that the family having been so focussed on Kaladin’s future in his flashbacks and how they were ultimately prepared to sacrifice Tien, felt somewhat uncomfortable to me, and this just confirms it. While Hesina is wonderful with Kaladin here, I am a bit concerned that she went along with her husband re: endangering their child yet again, when she agreed with his obstinate refusal to leave singer-occupied Hearthstone, where everybody knew that their eldest son was a Radiant. Somebody needs to call Lirin on his stuff, IMHO.
@Isilel
You know what would be helpful regarding Urithiru? If the Stormfather would stop fence sitting and actually help his Bondsmith. I mean he’s already been bonded, he knows that if Odium wins it’s curtains for Roshar. Self interest alone should tie him in with the cause of the new Radiance. He’s actually lived through a Desolation, he should know that every hand is needed to keep his storm winds allowing. Yet he’s been obstructionist from the very beginning and at nearly every step. He could at least talk to the Sib, see if they want to jump back into the game. Or let the humans plead their case. Instead he seems to be actively discouraging the spren to take up the fight. I mean I know the Recreance was a sore spot but he said it himself, take a bond or oblivion ensues. Although I’m encouraged by the fact that spren are taking up their ancient oaths again I do believe the effort could be stepped up significantly.
@55: dptullos, I agree with you on Dalinar. He was a warlord. He might have forgiven himself, he might have turned the page, but the Mink serves as a reminder not everyone will do the same. The wars Dalinar fought were unfair, unjust, and made for the glory of the despicable narcissist jerk we read in the prologue.
I also agree about Lirin: he does look down on soldering. The argument I tried to have was many people, in real-life, will look down on professions they consider are below them and would struggle to see their kids pick one of them. It is a lot easier, for a parent, to watch your kids settle for a higher-level profession then it is to watch the same kid drop out of school and be happy flipping burgers. Sure, kids have the right to make their choices, but parents are not obliged to agree with all of them. I believe, here, we have an example of a father who does not agree with the choices his son made.
@58 EvilMonkey, this is a conversation we all had in the past. I personally do not believe Dalinar was honorable enough when wrapped up in his killing frenzy as to stop raping from happening. After all, he did slaughter his own men. It is why I do believe his troops did pillage and raped their enemies. I believed it in OB, the Mink’s comment was just confirmation, but I understand other readers have a different perspective.
@59: Rachel, I never thought Sanderson would go with Kaladin and Lyn because Lyn is a real person! I was surprised by this. It was a nice touch to the story.
@62: Isilel, I recall the conversation about how Lirin felt next to Tien. I share the same uneasiness. While I understand how he feels towards Kaladin, how he might have felt towards Tien is odd. It is OK if one of your kids has different skill-sets. You have to encourage him where he has talent. The part I relate to Lirin is how disappointed he is to see his talented son wasting his talents soldering. That, I get. It is a sad situation, but I get why Lirin hasn’t moved past it yet.
Man you guys are harsh on Lirin. It’s understandable but try to understand who he is. The man is a hardcore pacifist. Can you imagine a greater horror for him than to have a son that is a cold, hard killer? Kaladin isn’t just some garrison soldier playing dress up. He has killed a LOT of people and continues to do so. For most of us, we see that as justified but to a pacifist? Despite that, Lirin has not completely rejected Kaladin. He is disappointed, disapproving and angry but he is still there, still willing to talk and still loves Kaladin. I find that perhaps a bit frustrating but also quite admirable.
Navani seems pretty Willshaperish, but her tendency to organize groups of people in pursuit of a project and to generally keep things together is very Bondsmithy. Sanderson did say that most people could fit in more than one Order, however, and Lightspren gave up on humans. I am on record as one of the early proponents of Navani becoming the Sibling’s Bondsmith. The gem archive suggests that one Bondsmith isn’t enough for the Radiants to function smoothly and of course they have a pressing need to switch on Urithiru. Yes, that’s a lot of power concentrated in Alethi/Kholins, but I strongly suspect that Dalinar won’t be around after book 5, one way or another. He will either die or Ascend. I expect that he won’t end up as a Shard – somehow it will be Kaladin, I just know it… Though personally, I’d prefer either Dalinar or, better yet, Taln as Honor.
Navani’s thoughts of Ehlokar are poignant – well, at least he got to fly to Kholinar. Good to know that he must have enjoyed it. Also, yes, she needs to speak up about her frustrations.
Could Mink be a nascent Willshaper? Him being a resistance fighter would fit and Cohesion would help him escape manacles. But I don’t think that Dalinar’s guards are so incompetent that a normal guy could sneak past them like that, which would suggest Illumination. Unless he somehow can Transport very unobtrusively and take his clothing along to boot. Also Herdazians may not count as human to Lightspren, given that they are singer hybrids and their nation didn’t exist during the Silver Kingdoms era. Hm… Can this also be the reason for Fused determination to conquer them and their own to resist as much as they did? What lore do they have?
dptullos @55:
While it is nice to see somebody call Dalinar on his warlord past, it is a bit rich coming from a Herdazian, given that they had been aggressors in that war according to OB, that even after they were defeated no land changed hands, and that they subsequently proceeded to have a bloody civil war of their very own. In fact, ironically, all of Dalinar’s border wars were defensive as far as we know.
EvilMonkey @63:
Yea, I have given up on understanding Stormfather’s thought processes. Maybe he hopes that if the Sibling keeps slumbering, it would be overlooked by Odium even if worse comes to worst.
Apropos of nothing, can it be that the moment of awesome that Sanderson has been building up to for a long time is Taln waking up from his insanity? Maybe somebody will perform a miracle to make it happen…
Concerning Lirin – existence of Edgedancers and Truthwatchers isn’t going to make surgeons obsolete, as I doubt that there can ever be enough of them and that normally their stormlight is limited. In fact, they should train as surgeons themselves, so that they can triage and ration their healing optimally, as well as be useful once their stormlight runs out.Also, given Lirin’s urge to speak truth to power and general unwillingness to listen, if he becomes a Radiant with Progression, he can only be a Truthwatcher.
@66 wingracer
Forgiveness and understanding are only available for mass murderers who butcher an entire town.
If you’re a pacifist healer who dares to look on said mass murderer with anything less than awe and admiration, you’re clearly beyond redemption. Protagonist Centered Morality is a heck of a drug.
@67 Isilel
Good point! I’m used to thinking of Dalinar as the aggressor, but he was actually defending his borders against the Herdazians and Jah Keved.
That doesn’t mean that no war crimes were committed during that defense, but it creates a much more nuanced situation, since it was the Herdazians who started the war.
Mink is probably upset because Alethi refugees recently chose to invade Herdaz during a time of peace. There was a section in Oathbringer where he executes their commander, and I suspect that he’s still upset at the Alethi for engaging in their usual behavior when they aren’t even at war.
@61 Gazeboist: I think that was more along the lines of a parent with a precocious child, not the kind of emotional distance they seem to have grown into by WoK.
@68: I mean, Shelar wasn’t part of Dalinar’s contingent, and a peripheral enemy through his connections, but the Mink can’t possibly know that and even if he did, he’s not on the wrong to bring up Alethi wrongdoings to the current leader of the Alethi. Similarly, Dalinar may have forbidden pillaging to his own troops during the wars, but just because something’s forbidden doesn’t mean it doesn’t happen during war. Dalinar at his worst is not a complete monster, though, so I’m not sure how “Dalinar is actually A-OK with soldiers raping civilians” became an arguable point?
@69 sistertotherain
Dalinar did decide to burn down an entire city, refusing any negotiation or offers of surrender. His history shows an utter lack of concern for human life.
In the Oathbringer chapter where Dalinar is introduced, he promises his new recruit that he won’t pillage his town if he agrees to join Dalinar’s elites. This suggests that Dalinar is perfectly fine with letting his men pillage towns in general, but he’s willing to make an exception this one time.
Keep in mind that Dalinar belongs to a culture that thinks murdering the surviving family of a deposed highprince is only proper and reasonable. We also have a useful reminder in the last chapter that they practice legalized slavery. Alethkar’s rulers do not generally have any belief in a concept of “human rights”, so why wouldn’t they let their soldiers do whatever they want to enemy civilians?
The Sunmaker, a great and revered Alethi king, ordered his soldiers to murder all the men in Azish villages so that he wouldn’t have to worry about uprisings. This is the kind of behavior that is considered acceptable by Alethi rulers.
I kind of feel like too much is being made of both sides, and that both sides are unrelated. I don’t think having a problem with Lirin’s response to Kaladin means people think warmongering overall is fine nor giving Dalinar a “free pass”. Just like I don’t think people understanding Lirin’s disappointment in Kaladin means they are against all forms of fighting and see Dalinar as the devil.
I believe these two things are completely unrelated but are being linked because of one commonality. Kaladin.
For myself Lirin can be disappointed seeing his son pursue a path that he views only ends in heartbreak, sorrow, pain and death. But at the same token, people can take issue with Lirin expressing his disappointment in this manner towards Kaladin in this manner when Kaladin has already had far too much to deal with already. Parents should provide stability and growth, not rotting their child’s foundation and attacking who they are. Which I think is why a good chunk of people take issue with Lirin right now. Regardless of Lirin’s personal beliefs, Kaladin is genuinely trying to be a good person and help others. Is it really so hard for Lirin to hold to his beliefs, but still support and love his son?
For myself Dalinar can be trying to be a better person, hear people disagree with him, value Kaladin’s contributions, and still continue to stand to try to be better. That by doing that, his past misdeeds are not negated, nor ignored. It is just he is trying to create a better future and people are recognizing the present without forgetting the past. They do not have to be mutually exclusive.
So for TLDR:
It is possible for Lirin to be able to take issue with the war, but still support his son, and I think because of the way Lirin has chosen to treat Kaladin bothers some people. But that does not mean by proxy that they are excusing war time travesties. Just like by extension I do not feel they are excusing or ignoring Dalinar’s past. Just like people can appreciate Lirin, without supporting his treatment of Kaladin, and feeling that any and all fighting is bad.
(can’t login at the moment so using my normal name, but without my associated login)
Young Dalinar didn’t care enough about anything not involving fighting or drinking to bother stopping the soldiers in his armies from raping enemies unless he had a specific reason like recruiting the archer. Just because he didn’t actively order it doesn’t mean it didn’t happen.
Isilel @67. Your desire that Taln Ascends to reform and hold Honor’s Shard is a great suggestion. I hope it happens,. I think it would make for a better story than Dalinar Ascending. I think many fans would not be surprised if Dalinar Ascends. But I think Taln Ascending would be an unexpected twist that many fans do not see coming.
Thanks for reading my musings,
AndrewHB
aka the musespren
@72 Id like to say that the Mink was speaking figuratively, but he likely wasn’t. Reread Dalinars first flashback chapter. Dalinar might not have engaged in the rape of conquered towns onscreen, but the implications was very heavy that Sadeas did, and Dalinar just preferred different vices. He promised Teleb that he would stop the looting (and similar activities), and when he told Sadeas, he looked toward a group of women “selected for him” and expressed disappointment. I have no trouble assuming that rape occurred all the way up the chain of command during Gavilar’s conquest.
It’s a bit more personal to the Mink, because the last Alethi he met, was caught in the act and fed to The Hog.
My thoughts echo many of those above: I do not think younger Dalinar cared enough about what happened around him to stop looting/raping unless he had a direct reason for it. I think, most of the time, he was so locked up in his own frenzy, he would barely notice all else that is happening around him. He did go as far as to kill his own soldiers because he couldn’t differentiate friends from foes than maddened by the Thrill. Despite all this, he would have been so honorable as to stop his soldiers from raping/pillaging when we know most wars do end up this way? Didn’t the Allies rape most German women when they entered Germany during WW2?
This is why I believe it is increasingly more likely the Mink is not exaggerating. Troops raped and pillaged Herdazian villages: some of those troops were the Blackthorn. I doubt the Mink would confuse troops led by Sadeas with troops led by the famous Blackthorn. His opponents would know who they are facing, they would know the Blackthorn is in front of them and, when he won, they would know it was his troops who did the damage.
This being said, I do not think the Mink is clean either. Had he succeeded in invading Alethkar, he would have probably raped and pillages Alethi villages. Hence his jab mostly was one warlord acknowledging another.
I also like the theory Taln Ascends and not Dalinar: it would be a nice twist because we all expect Dalinar to Ascend, Dalinar probably expects to Ascend. A twist would be good, so I like this theory.
Re: Lirin Stormblessed
I think people are going hard on him more because of whom he is going hard against, not that his views are reprehensible at least in abstract. He wants a better life for his son. Great. He doesn’t condone violence. Great. He says there’s no real glory in warfare, just a bunch of poor people fighting to line a brightlord’s pockets. The way the world does it at this time he’s probably got a point. But he’s putting this all on Kaladin, someone so beat down by life by this point that even magical powers cannot completely bring him out of the doldrums. We know how much Kaladin reveres his pops so it pains us to see the disdain his pops shows him.
That being said, thank God for Hessina. She serves as the bridge between Kaladin and Lirin, two of the biggest grumps on Roshar.
Lastly, father and son are so alike I think if each heald the views of the other they would conduct themselves in the exact same way.
@76 EvilMonkey
Lirin loves his son, but he struggles to express that love without a lecture or a lesson. Sometimes Kaladin just needs a hug.
Fortunately, he does have Syl, and she and his mother can share embarrassing stories while discussing his dating life.
First few thoughts: Stormlight fighting is painful/messy! “Oh bother, need to regenerate my spine”
Fourth Bridge is cool! Control systems are vulnerable to a fast strike by the flying Fused though; they could even conceal their approach by flying through the chasms of the Plains. I’m assuming Urithiru is secure enough to rebuff that.
I don’t think the Mink is a Radiant. Herdazians are basically typecast as “crafty” and he’s written as the ur-Herdazian. Nice guy though–very upfront (when he’s actually in front of you). For people on the “willshaper” theory, remember that the willshaper spren seem to be fed up with humans.
Lirin…is Lirin. A rock embedded in a hill, he’s not changing. Yet.
Wonder what the overall recruitment is like for Radiants. It seems like there’s a fair number of Windrunners (several dozen at least from Oath 1-3) and a decent number of Edgedancers. But what about the other orders?
As for Dalinar’s recharge: Stormlight doesn’t come from the Cognitive realm. When the storm passes the equivalent point in the cognitive realm it refreshes the spren there as it does gems in the physical, but it seems to come from the Spiritual realm (or the interaction of the 3 realms). Dalinar recharges Stormlight by creating a localized Perpendicularity–an intersection of the realms. He did a huge one at the end of Oathbringer, but it seems like he’s learned to tone it down to take it easier on himself.
So the tone Navani heard may be from the Spiritual Realm.
As enjoyable as it was to see Lirin and Dalinar interact I’m much more interested in seeing Hessina interact with Navani, Jasnah or Shallan so they can all match wits together (also still kinda hoping that Kaladin’s mother used to be an author/scholar and wrote the Mythica).
@66 wingracer:
Is Kaladin a cold, hard killer though? Since we first saw him back in Amaram’s army, he has been trying to protect people and to save the lives of young inexperienced recruits. He trained his squad in defensive techniques that would keep them alive, rather than aggressively attacking the other side. He spent his soldier’s salary to buy medical supplies and pay the surgeons to come and help his wounded men on the field. Once he became a slave and a bridgemen he continued to try to help and heal his fellow slaves. When he had to fight the Parshendi at the end of WOK, he felt so bad about it that he laster asked Dalinar not to send him and his men out on plateau runs so they could avoid fighting. He did not kill a single human or Parshendi in WOR. Brandon even changed the ending of the book so that Kaladin did not kill Szeth, because it was not in his character to kill someone who had surrendered. In Oathbringer he only killed one Fused, then he froze in battle because he could not fight the soldiers either side. We have now seen him kill one Singer in Rhythm of War, but only after asking them to leave and they attacked him anyway.
These are not the actions of a “cold, hard killer.” Kaladin has continuously struggled with the question of whether you need to kill to protect, and he does everything in his power to avoid killing. My hope for Rhythm of War is that Lirin will take the time to see that this is who Kaladin really is: a protector, not a killer. He does not see all of the lives Kaladin has saved, all of the wounded men he has treated on the battlefield, or how often he has risked his own life to protect the lives of others. Hopefully on the airship journey, some of Bridge Four members or Dalinar will talk to Lirin about some of the good things Kaladin has done.
I should also note that I am a pacifist myself, so I can totally relate to Lirin’s views on the subject. But what I can’t relate to is his judgment of others who have a different worldview and have made different life choices for themselves. I think Kaladin probably needs his father now more than ever, and I hope Lirin can eventually see that his disapproval and lack of support for Kaladin is doing more harm than good.
@43 That’s really clever, 9 and 1. Could Sja-anat also be an odd one out by being against Odium, or could there be more? Could there be an odd one out among the Radiants, perhaps one that isn’t broken?
There has definitely been some development for us to dive into and piece together over the past year. Lift and Wyndle, Edgedancers, Navani and Dalinar, Shallan and Adolin, Kaladin and Lift, fabrial tech, Lirin, singers choosing cultures… I’m most interested to see how Venli and Timbre are doing. I believe Venli could be a Bondsmith if she hadn’t already bonded a spren.
How has the power structure changed at Urithiru and in the kingdoms? Did Gawx return to the coalition? What has Taravangian been doing? (He was my first thought at the Bondsmith question like “It’s going to be him, isn’t it?”) There are a lot of questions to be answered here that play into the actions and emotions of the main characters.
What did they do to the entire army corrupted by the thrill in Oathbringer?
I want Dalinar to Ascend to Honor. If it won’t happed, I will be very disappointined.
(I posted in the wrong thread for the first time)
Lirin is burnt out and depressed. He’s already lost one adult child. He struggles with mild disassociation and a restricted emotional range, hallmark indicators of PTSD. His interactions with Dalinar and the refugees he triaged are telling. Depression runs in families and people tend to clash with the family members they are most alike. I sympathize with Lirin and I’ve interacted with his presentation in real life (as well as Kaladin’s.)
Depressed and trauma based thinking tend to lose complexity, nuance, externality, and balance when personal resources and autonomy are overwhelmed with regularit.
Lirin sees a cycle of violence on top of a world that already contains disease and injury. In his view healers/surgeons are not only the ones who ease that societal burden for the sake of their community, but they should also refuse to participate in that cycle, to “worsen” it. Over time and personal loss that worldview appears to have become angry and bitter; cleaning up after “simpletons” and “nobility” who maim and kill each other to the detriment of all.
I feel for the guy and I don’t condone his approach with his adult son. So Brandon did a nice job, I don’t get emotionally caught up in books very often and this moment really hit home for me.
With the description of how the “teleportation” works with this new Fused, it got me speculating about how Jasnah was able to fool those Ghostbloods that attacked her on the Wind’s Pleasure in to thinking they had killed her with a knife. We learn from the Fused that a “husk” remains after the Fused teleported. Perhaps Jasnah leaves a husk when she teleports.
Before we met this Fused, I assumed that Jasnah had made a Soulcast replica of herself to fool the Ghostblood assassins, before she entered Shadesmar to escape from them. The problems with this theory were that Jasnah would need to do two actions in short sequence in order to escape, and if she had been surprised by the assassins she would have unlikley had the time to do both while being able to fool the assassins. But with this new information, leaving a husk after teleporting, Jasnah would need only one (re)action to escape from assassins. The husk would be a convincing decoy for assassins (and Shallan) to convince them that she was dead.
Am I the only one who is concerned about Kaladins addiction to Stormlight? I feel like he is using too much and can’t function without it.
Syl is adorable!
I’m really interested in the seemingly large number of Windrunners and Edgedancers around. The progression of Kaladin and Shallan, whom we got to observe closely, was not a quick one, and I’m a little skeptical about this many radiants popping up in “only” a year. I wonder if it’s closer to a few Radiants with their squires. Or maybe they’re mostly former squires who have become Radiant in their own right.
Also, the thought of Lift with a bunch of squires is really funny to me.
A lot of speculation here about what orders characters will end up as, and one thing I want to say is that I really hope we retain some strong non-Radiant characters. Navani, Adolin, etc. are great characters already without having additional powers. We often focus of what limitations Sanderson puts on the magic system, but the limits on the characters themselves are equally important.
Adolin is probably destined for something, considering what was happening with Maya in OB, but I stand by my point in general.
There’s a lot of dislike for Lirin’s attitude towards Kaladin here, which I agree with… but it makes me wonder if Lirin has some skeletons of his own in the closet, possibly something that influenced him to become a surgeon. It wouldn’t surprise me to see him follow a Radiant path of his own, in overcoming that history.
Shallan does seem to be recovering, with her personalities growing together and becoming less in conflict. It’s just a gradual process.
I don’t generally like technology/mechanics in my fantasy, but it sounds like there’s going to be a lot of it in ROW, so I may as well get used to it.
Also, I don’t think Lirin needs additional backstory to explain his attitudes, because they’re already understandable. Literally every war Alethkar has ever fought has been for imperial conquest, squabbles between nobles, or genocidal vengeance. Lirin is one of vanishing few people in Alethkar who recognized those wars for what they were rather than conceptualizing them as glorious, and that’s to his credit.
He’s not goung to instinctively do a 180 on everything he knows, especially not when oppression of the Alethi by Singers isn’t substantively worse than the prior oppression of darkeyes by lighteyes.
It’s a major change to go from all the previous wars being genuinely evil to the understanding that this war really is about the world’s survival. I wouldn’t expect him to make that jump in a hurry.
Peeps, spolier alert – well, only if I’m right, but I think I am. I think I’ve got the mystery of Urithiru figured out. After reading these two chapters, it doesn’t feel as brilliant, although I did figure it out after Ch 1.
Actually I’m kicking myself for not figuring it out sooner. Brandon’s pretty much been telling us, subtly, for a while. What is Urithiru missing? It’s a giant fabrial. What do other fabrials have, to make them work, that Urithiru doesn’t? A SPREN. The only question is, which one? And I think Y’all have figured out the answer. Somehow the Sibling has to be revived. Which i personally believe can be done.
Regards,
Ben M.
How would The Sibling get revived?
Hmmm…. well, I suspect Adolin’s sword might be revived if he swore the first Ideal. And/or maybe it would take intervention of a Bondsmith to restore her Connection. Or something like that.
So how did the Sibling “die”?
Guessing, the KR abandoning the Tower, and then the Recreance.
So, you’d almost think the return of the KR in general, and specifically TO the tower, would revive the Sibling. But apparently that’s not enough. Maybe Dalinar has to do something?
Which makes me think… that would be a lot of work, to revive all the “dead” spren. Maybe there’s one big step/thing that Dalinar would have to do to start the process of spren, in general, reviving, and him not having to travel all over the world, and do something to each spren individually. No idea what that step/thing would be.
To quote AndrewB, thanks for reading my musings. :)
Ben M
Hmmm, I wonder if Dalinar can / has to, do something like recreate Honor’s Perpendicularity there in Urithiru. Maybe that would do the trick.
Ben M.
I agree with Katherine @89. I too do not think we need an additional backstory for Lirin nor do I think the character needs hidden skeletons nor a mental illness to explain his behavior. I find it perfectly understandable as it is. He’s a doctor, he sworn to himself he would heal people. Living in a war-ravaged land, having been a young man during the War of Conquest, he ended up harboring warfare, seeing it as useless and petty. He saw from his eyes the damage it did, the people it killed and wounded. He thinks it is stupid to want to “kill to protect” because you would save far more life if there were no warfare. By choosing to become a soldier, his son, Kaladin, no matter how mighty and fantastic he may be, also choose to encourage and perpetuate a way of living which implies endless warfare.
Kaladin keeps on arguing he is protecting people, but the reality is the warfare, by itself, is endangering the people. You cannot kill to protect, unless in complete self-defense. You cannot protect when you condone warfare.
Now the difference here is this warfare is seen as just because the heroes are not the aggressors, but Lirin has spent a lifetime seeing heroes being over-turned and over-ruled. To him, it matters not who’s the leader, Parshendis or humans, they both behave the same, they both take their privilege so why fight one to replace with another?
Hence, his behavior makes perfect sense: no additional backstory, trauma nor tragedy is needed to explain it.
@91 Ben, while I have no idea what is required to revive a dead-Blade, I would personally not like it if Dalinar (or anyone else besides Adolin) were involved in reviving Maya. The reason I enjoy this narrative so much is the fact it is mystical, mysterious, unique. I happened because endless twists of events made it possible and, in the end, Adolin’s own actions will dictate the end game: not some additional magical trick other characters could pull off for him.
In other words, I would personally prefer if reviving Maya, whether he succeeds or fails, involved Adolin and just Adolin. I feel having Dalinar use his Bondsmith powers to revive Maya would undermine this entire narrative by removing Adolin from his agency within his own narrative. I also hate the idea a Nahel Bond could be handed to him by daddy just because now, apparently, it is within Dalinar’s powers to turn dead-Blades into live bonds and to give them to the people of his choosing. The whole “a spren has to choice its knight” story would just feel hollow. And I really, really, really do not want Dalinar to be given this amount of power.
All of those reasons are why I would personally prefer if Dalinar, Renarin, Jasnah or any other character did not insert themselves between Adolin and Maya to perform some mechanical surgery to turn the impossible into the possible. I would prefer if Sanderson were to keep is… mystical, mysterious: a once in a lifetime event. Unique. Impossible to reproduce. An endless string of unpredictable events led towards making possible and, in the end, Adolin will be the one to unlock Maya. Alone. On his own.
I think SA could use some soft mystical magic inside its very hard system. Adolin and Maya represent this: something that cannot be explained but happens nonetheless because, sometimes, the unexplainable does happen. And I find the whole arc would be more satisfying this way.
Such is my personal take.
@93 Gepeto, completely agree that Adolin should be the only one involved in the possibility of reviving Maya. I’d even add to that that even if he would somehow revive her, I would still not want him to become a Radiant. He’s such good contrast character to our Radiants and their powers, and those characters are equally important, that I wouldn’t want him to be in that same grouping as most of our main characters with magic abilities.
@24 bridge4, I do not think it is possible for Adolin to revive Maya without becoming her knight, but I do not think, if he ever succeeds, he will ever be a “full knight”. As for contrasts, we have Lirin and Navani also providing contrast. We have the Mink too. We have other characters.
I do not mind if Adolin does not become a knight, but I wish the narrative to broach the topic and to explain why. I wouldn’t be satisfied if, in the end, Adolin does not revive Maya, does not get picked by another spren simply because “it wasn’t convenient in the narrative” or “the author didn’t feel like it” I want an explanation. Everyone is becoming a Radiant, those who aren’t I want an explanation, so not just Adolin, but Navani and Lirin though there are zero possibilities Navani will not become one. Somehow, the readership never minded Navani becoming a knight, but Adolin has always been a big no-no. This is why I hope Sanderson has treated this narrative with great care to make it satisfying and engaging for a majority of his readers.
Late to the comment party, sorry.
I feel quite out of step with the majority view on Lirin. Sure, he’s blunt to his son but living in Alethi civilisation seems like a great way to end up wholly contemptuous of war and soldiers: we know on a personal level he’s seen two sons forcibly recruited and one killed and I think we’ll probably get his perspective filled in with other personal events in this book.
The Alethi are also permanently at war and achieving nothing except to get vast numbers of their own soldiers killed – the overwhelming majority Darkeyes, who are constantly tantalised with the romantic notion of killing a Lighteyes and winning their shardplate/blade but in reality just fed into the meatgrinder. They’d barely finished their own civil war before finding another ruinous conflict to fight, and they’re now caught up in a greater war still which, if you don’t know about Odium and the Fused, looks a lot like a slave uprising in which they’re reaping the results of cruelty going back generations. Alethi society is like someone took a look at the Battle of the Somme and thought ‘Great, how do we do more of that?’. It’s a nightmare.
He might be out of step with the rest of the Alethi but Lirin…isn’t wrong*. And to have held what are essentially heretical views all his life, having his remaining become a committed soldier in service to the most bloodsoaked Alethi warlord of all probably feels like an appalling slap in the face.
*Sure Roshar’s currently under attack by an evil god from another planet and it’s easier to justify violence in this case than in the endless slaughter of the civil wars, but given how the first major battle of that conflict was resolved by Dalinar undergoing some personal growth, it doesn’t seem likely to me that the day is ultimately going to be won by Kaladin doing A Big Fight.
I think if Lirin were opposing any character other than Kaladin I don’t believe he’d get nearly as much blowback. But it’s Kaladin, our own brooding bridgeboy made good, a guy who suffers greatly to do the right thing. He doesn’t need this grief from the man he respects most in the world. As a healer you’d think Lirin would understand that his son is hurting and would do his best not to increase his burden. Especially since it’s not going to make his son change his profession. Really, hold whatever views you want, just don’t hurt our Kaladin! Of course that’s unrealistic considering the type of man he is and the type of man Kaladin is. People as principled as they are aren’t going to be weathervanes. Strength in their beliefs and honest stubbornness means that they will clash when opposed. And on the point of protection they are going to clash.
As a soldier myself I believe in Kaladin’s view but I understand that my perspective isn’t quite shared by everyone. I fight so that people like Lirin can have the opinion he has, and I believe Kaladin is the same. Does not mean I’m always comfortable.
One comment on people saying how quickly so many new Radiants showed up .. – a year has passed since Oathbringer – didn’t the first two books cover less time than that (so enough time has passed that proto-radiants at end of OB, would be at the level our gang was at then or even a little further alogn)
My immediate reaction: The Mink is acting far too much like Wayne, who is the most annoying character in Mistborn Era 2.
Navani for non-Radiant! I still want her to be uninterested in the very concept, perfectly fulfilled by her role as engineer and leader. Every single person doesn’t have to be a demigod.
@14, Austin:
You mean, he’s exactly like his eldest son?
He’s not behaving well, but then, Kaladin is not behaving so well, either.
@31, adjbaker:
He did. We see him board the airbarge.
@78, hammerlock:
You can’t assume that every Ashspren spren agrees with that one. Not all Honorspren are like Syl. Lopen’s could hardly be more different.
@85, rexdplatt:
She doesn’t. She really got stabbed, it’s just that you can’t kill a Knight Radiant by stabbing, unless they run out of Stormlight.
On a change of topic, am I the only one who’s curious about all those people and businesses deemed too disrespectable to be at Urithiru? Shallan mentioned gambling places, brothels… However, in Renaissance-like Alethkar, the people evolving in those spheres probably never really got a choice… Many of them probably were urchins or sons and daughters of poor people who sold them to pay their debts… How much choice does a prostitute really get in life?
So I got curious… How would it feel for those people to hear about magical Knights Radiants living in their fabulous city while knowing there aren’t… good enough to even step foot in there.
They are the forgottens, the forgottens even the Urithiru Edgedancers have forgotten about.
I thought this was really interesting. I really want to hear about those people. Sure many probably worthless criminals, but I feel sorry for the girls forced to sell their bodies in those brothels or the poor boy who sweeps the floor at the gambling place.
I’m loving that one of my top three theories is already well in the works in the prologue and this third chapter! I’ve long thought that Navani was an even better uniter than Dalinar, bringing all of the leaders together to Urithiru as she did, and she’s clearly the best one situated to be Queen of (and always with) Urithiru. She’s obsessed with fabrials, her chapter art is an enormous fabrial, and she’s the one showing the most interest in waking Urithiru up and bringing her back to life. I can’t wait until she bonds the Sibling!!!
I just love this line so much! And the Fourth Bridge – oh, goodness!
I love the Mink. One can never have too many snarky Herdazians. My guess is that he’s using the transportation surge (“he is to vanish” and “You don’t survive like the Mink has without learning to wiggle out of situations others could never escape”). That would make him an Elsecaller or Willshaper.
@95 Gepeto
I don’t think Brandon would be amateur to allow himself to fall prey to some character choice simply for the sake of narrative without reasonable explanation…
Brandon has made it clear that to become Radiant, there needs to be some “cracks” for the Investiture to fill in. And I think Adolin is a pretty well-rounded guy who doesn’t have those cracks. So there’s a valid reason why he wouldn’t necessarily become Radiant.
Regarding Adolin not being a radiant, I wonder if Maya has laid a claim to him which keeps other spren away?Adolin has been talking to his sword for years, so even before he met her in Shadesmar his attentions may have made Maya slightly more awake than other deadeye spren, enough to become attached to him as her bearer. There’s a cute scene in Oathbringer where some spren, I think glory spren, are hovering around Kaladin and Syl shoos them away and says “mine!” Perhaps Maya has been doing something similar with Adolin on subconscious level.
@102, there is a WOB that says not every radiant needs to be cracked by terrible trauma or broken in a negative way. He uses Lopen as an example, who is a pretty happy and well adjusted person. Even so, Adolin lost his mother at a young age, so I would think that would be enough to cause some cracks if they were needed for a bond to form.
I’m really curious how the Fused is regenerating a body between transports. My main guess is soulcasting from air, but that would require transformation as well as transportation, and as far as we know the Fused only have access to one surge. I look forward to learning more about their abilities.
@102, bridge 4, I have a different opinion than yours. I do not believe Adolin is not broken. I do believe his past story is pretty tragic (dead mother, drunken wasted authoritative unloving father), but his coping mechanism of “trying harder to be what other people expect” makes him appear healthier, stronger, and “well-rounded”.
Also, as @103 Artemis pointed out, being broken is not a hard requirement. Lopen is an unbroken knight, but you need to be open to the Nahel Bond which Lopen very much was. There are other WoBs inferring being near Radiants makes you highly susceptible to be picked.
This is why my personal wish is for Sanderson to take the time to explain whatever it is he has planned for this narrative. The reason I worry he might not do so is due to Adolin potentially being too secondary for the narrative to take the time to, well, explain. On the reverse, I feel he has grown too important not to explain without making it feel “convenient”.
I hope this clarifies.
@103: I had wondered about the same! It’d be really cute.
@103 If I remember it correctly I think they were windspren, and it definitely is cute. I think it’s a good idea, or it’s just that Adolin doesn’t have what he needs to be radiant. Can’t wait to find out
It just occured to me that Evi’s brother had been living in Herdaz the last we heard, so he might be among the groups of Herdazians that Dalinar promised to pick up. It would be nice to see him again and maybe get the first clues about what could be going on with Iri, as well as throw some light on Evi’s history.
I also forgot to mention previously how much I appreciate the fact that Syl speaks with and appears to people other than Kaladin in RoW and has her own relationships with them – one of the issues I had with OB was that both Syl and Pattern severaly dialled back their interactions with anybody who were not their bondmates, which seemed to go against the idea of Radiancy as equal cooperation between humans and spren. Looking back, it was a ploy to preserve Renarin’s secret, but I found it jarring. Ditto, the fact that the Radiants didn’t learn from each other in OB and even when they were together on a mission, each of them was mostly doing their own thing independantly of others. Thankfully, things seem to be different now.
Brandonw @87:
But we knew from WoR at the latest that there used to be thousands of Radiants and that the Orders tended to expand very quickly immediately before and during the Desolations. It was all in the epigraphs taken from the in-world WoR. We follow the characters we do not because they are the only ones to have these powers, but because they will turn out to be the most important to the outcome – and not just because of their magic. Also, with the number of attempted bonds rising exponentially Nale and his merry band would have been unable to keep up with all the murdering for a couple of years or more – there were probably quite a few people in the same situation as and concurrently with the early-WoK Kaladin, whom the Skybreakers completely missed. And, of course, after the re-discovery of Uritiru it became much easier for the incipient Radiants to understand what was happening to them and what they needed to do. The process of becoming a Radiant wasn’t historically supposed to be as tortuous as that of our main characters.
I agree that some of the Windrunners are probably advanced squires – though Kaladin seemed to have been operating independently behind the enemy lines when he requested the ship for evacuation, so maybe they aren’t his squires. While Lyn is there, for all we know she might have already bonded a spren or transferred to another knight (it should be possible, IMHO).
But as for the Edgedancers, we don’t even know if they can have squires, and even if they normally do, I don’t see how Lift could. After all, Lift can’t infuse stormlight, so logically she can’t give people connected to her that ability either. And her metabolising of food into investiture is tied into her special closeness to the cognitive realm, which I don’t see how she could extend to any followers either. Well, at least not to human ones – I could imagine that it might work with singers. Besides, there should be a lot of Edgedancers, as we know that cultivation spren had an organized bonding initiative going, which would have been only spurred on by the Everstorm et al.
Concerning non-powered characters, they absolutely can work, if given plausible opportunities. At the end of WoR, I wanted Adolin to remain normal, become the king of Alethkar and delve into interesting tensions/conflicts between a non-powered political/military leader and the Radiants, exacerbated by the fact that many of the Radiants were also his family. There was a lot of dramatic potential there, IMHO, but Sanderson chose to go in a different direction and most of it is not applicable anymore. Besides, WoR hints gave me a hunkering for a properly deadly and elegant Edgedancer, and who better than Adolin to truly show us their potential in that respect?
It is different with Navani, as she already has a satisfying niche, which I’d be happy for her to remain in. The problem is, though, that we need to wake up the Sibling and it would feel hollow if some new character came out of the woodwork and accomplished it. Among the somewhat fleshed-out minor characters, none fit the bill of the Sibling’s Bondsmith except for her. I do think that Rock has Bondsmith potential, but there had been no hint of any affinity between him an Urithiru so far. So, basically, I just don’t see any viable alternatives at this point.
Gepeto @93:
As somebody who was underwhelmed by the lack of cooperation, learning from each other and sharing of information by the characters in OB (and many, many other SF books), I would dislike Adolin pursuing the same course. And if reviving Maya would turn out to be “impossible to reproduce”, then, much as I love Adolin, it would render this whole exercise pointless in my eyes, not to mention that it would diminish Adolin’s contribution to the overall proceedings. Instead of him being somebody who made a crucial discovery leading to greater things – like insight into how to reach the Sibling and how to assuage the concerns of spren who are afraid and unwilling to bond, he’d have just gained an unneccessarily quirky way to access Radiant or sub-Radiant powers. That is not to say that I want Dalinar to be involved, but something like Adolin confiding in Shallan and/or Renarin, them helping him to communicate with Maya in PR by touching her together with him as a summoned shardblade, etc. would make perfect sense to me. It would go against Adolin’s previous characterization, as well as against the ideals of Edgedancers, if he spent the gap year without looking for a way to help Maya. IMHO, YMMV.
@100:
I was disappointed by the fact that Jasnah let the camps devolve like that – IMHO Sebarial’s suggestion in OB was eminently sensible. Capital of Alethkar-in-exile needs to be separate from the stronghold of the Radiants, if they want the world to see the Orders as not beholden to any one nation, and they need to grow food too, which is currently impossible in Urithiru. They also can’t afford to allow preying on the refugees, like people in the camps seem to have been doing – displaced Alethkar _is_ it’s people. They need to motivate more to escape the occupied territories, rather then frighten them off with worse conditions. I hope that we might see culmination of a plan to bring new order to the camps in early RoW. Sanderson did say that he had structured the beginning of this book like a climax to whatever was happening off-screen during the gap.
@Gepeto, we do meet one of the warcamp whores, when Adolin chats with one back in Way of Kings. Very Edgedancer-like of him.
@105: I do not think Adolin needs to be a Radiant, but I think his trajectory needs better explanation and focus than what it has gotten so far, but YMMV.
@106: I haven’t thought of Toh being within the group of Herdaz refuges. Now you mention it, count me in those who really hope the narrative will shed some additional light onto the reasons behind Evi and Toh running away from Rira with a stolen Shardplate. It would be really interesting if Dalinar were to meet again his former step-brother.
About non-powered characters, my opinion differs slightly from your own. I agree non-powered characters can absolutely work if given their own storyline and area of expertise. I have however always resolutely been against Adolin becoming king of Alethkar and learning to juggle with the position because I have always felt this wasn’t the right area of growth for his character. In other words, as early as WoK, I thought there were signs Adolin wasn’t up to the challenge, didn’t want a position of leadership and has been basically been shoe-horned into a role he didn’t want. At the time, he made me think of how Kaladin might have evolved had he gone to Karbranth and followed his father’s dreams: he would have been a very good surgeon, but his heart would have been elsewhere and he would have been playing at being someone he, deep down, is not. This is how I have read Adolin in previous books.
Oathbringer seemed to confirm those thoughts as Adolin did verbalize part of what I had seen in him. Unfortunately, Sanderson recently said we wouldn’t be reading a major viewpoint from an Edgedancer in the first half of SA. He said he wouldn’t delve into the Edgedancers until the back half which implies Adolin will never revive Maya and become an Edgedancer. Or perhaps I am reading too much into it, but I cannot see how Adolin can revive Maya, become an Edgedancer while not shedding some light on the order. Hence, if Sanderson does not want to explore the order until the back half, then it means Adolin cannot succeed.
I agree about Navani. Your thoughts reflect my own. I will nonetheless add I am not personally sold on Navani as the main character of RoW. I always felt she worked well in the role she has had so far which was to supplement the narrative from times to times. I never had an urge to read more of her nor to explore her character so when I heard Sanderson’s decision on the matter, I was floored. I even considered not reading RoW. I since then decided I would read the book and I would give it a fair chance. I will thus do my best to put away those concerns and not to let them taint my reading. I’ll give Navani a fair chance even if she definitely was not someone I wanted to see in a front seat. I am not sold on her reawakening the Sibling and becoming a Bondsmith, but like you, I see no other way for the story to go.
I was not as bothered as you with the lack of cooperation, but I do understand your points. I guess I just feel differently about it. The reason I want the revival of Maya to be impossible to reproduce is mostly that Sanderson has told is this was impossible. It is not just “hard” or “difficult”, it is “impossible” unless a very specific chain of events happens. More to the point, Adolin himself does not believe he can be a Radiant nor does he believe he is reviving Maya. I thus would not like it if he had made progress or was actively trying to revive her especially not given the fact in-world characters all believe it is impossible. People don’t readily try to do what they believe is not possible, not unless they have clear-cut signs it no longer is impossible. So much has happened during the Thaylenah battle and with Dalinar’s perpenticularity, it is hard to gauge what can happen in normal times and what happened due to it. Adolin was also seriously wounded, for the second time in a few hours. Stormlight does not heal shock. So even if he told Renarin about Maya appearing in less than 10 seconds, Renarin could argue he was so messed up he might have miscounted. I think it is incredibly more likely others will not believe Adolin just as it is highly likely Adolin will also believe he is misremembering. If Adolin told everyone, was actively trying to revive Maya with the help of everyone able to help, I will be disappointed. It would disappoint me because it is impossible: people do not readily believe in the impossible without firm clues. Maya gave impressions to Adolin, but Adolin has always been weird with his Shardblade: others will not believe anything different from the usual is happening. As for Adolin himself, the fact he does not think he can be a Radiant should settle it. He is unworthy. He won’t try to be Maya’s knight, not until he gets a real shove forward, but then again, Sanderson said this was not happening, so I dunno what to think could happen. He’ll be nice to her and all but he knows she cannot be saved, so that won’t cross his mind.
As for Adolin doing something plot-important which would have repercussions… well… I would counter-argue Adolin himself is not plot-important. How much of him can we realistically expect to read in RoW? How many chapters? Three? Four? How many words? 10K? Facts are Adolin doesn’t get enough page time to truly, well, do anything really important other than emotionally support Shallan. OB gave some focus on his inner issues, but as long as his narrative will be driven by Shallan, I doubt we are going to see much else beyond what we already have seen.
I agree about what happened to the Shattered Plains. My first impressions are Urithiru, the Radiants, and Queen Jasnah set out a world made for the Radiants, their followers and they exclude all other people they didn’t like nor wanted to see. I also think it is a bad thing for the world’s leaders to be made entirely of… Radiants. I do not think the Queen of Alethkar should be a Radiant. I understand there were no ways around it, but I think it makes her too susceptible to make decisions for the benefit of the Radiants more than the people. As first glimpses, it does seem as if the two functions don’t go well together. The Radiants can be single-minded and some people felt excluded from the world they have built.
@107: What I meant is I want to know what those people are thinking now “old Kholin”, as Veil put it, has deemed them “not good enough” to be in Urithiru. I want to hear what they think of this new world they have been excluded from.
Gepeto @108:
I guess that we are destined to remain on the opposite sides of this particular issue, because I personally would be very disappointed if it turns out that Adolin didn’t tell anybody about Maya. Why wouldn’t he tell Renarin and Shallan? And why would they think that Maya reviving for some reason is “impossible”? Yes, the spren think so, but then, Radiant spren and Oathgate spren getting corrupted was supposed to be impossible, an Unmade defecting from Odium ditto, etc. Basically, for them impossible is Tuesday and I don’t see either of them dogmatically slapping down whatever Adolin confides in them about Maya, like you envision in your post. Heck, Pattern actually _saw_ Maya take independent action during the fight in Shadesmar! And both Navani and Kaladin even think about spren “death” being a fluid concept in these very chapters! Characters keeping secrets for no good reason and carrying idiot balls are my other pet peeves as far as wrtiting tropes are concerned, and it would require liberal application of both for things to remain exactly as they were at the end of OB after a whole year.
Now, I agree that Adolin has an inferiority complex and wouldn’t think himself worthy of bonding Maya. However, he doesn’t have to ascribe Maya’s apparent revival to their growing connection. He and people around him might well believe that it has something to do with the Desolation. Nor would it be in his nature, IMHO, not to try to help her in some way, even if it is only via communication with the assisstance of his brother and wife.
Finally, plot importance of characters isn’t necessarily measured in the length of their PoVs. How many Herald PoVs have seen? How many Gavilar’s PoVs? How many Taravangian’s PoVs? Etc. Adolin doesn’t need a ton of PoV space to do something critically important in the overall scheme of things. I would prefer him to have more or to figure in more in-depth capacity in the other PoVs, sure. But to me, his and Maya’s story needs to be about more than just some personal growth.
@108: I respect the fact we seem to indeed have a different perspective. I have no idea how things will play out, it could be you are right and I am wrong, but right it does seem as if our mutual perspective differs.
However, to answer your question as to why would they think it is impossible, I would say because Brandon Sanderson told us in-world characters didn’t think it was possible. Dalinar asked the Stormfather and he was told it was impossible. Pattern told Shallan the Cryptics tried all they could, but they could not save the dead-eyes. Every single piece of intelligence they have has told them they could do nothing for the dead-eyes. Adolin also believes there is nothing he can do other than treat Maya with respect. So even if he were to tell them, what would he tell them? That his Blade has told him her name? That she appeared in less than 10 seconds? Wouldn’t they think he made it up given how weird and mystical Adolin is with Blades, to begin with? Wouldn’t they be more likely to think Adolin just… doesn’t remember things right? Especially given how wounded he was?
My point is people do not readily believe the impossible has become possible without solid proofs. When you are convinced something is not possible, you demand more than just here-say and vague impressions before you deem it possible. We, the readers, know it is not completely impossible, but Shallan and Renarin do not know this. Even if Adolin told them, without proof, without more tangible clues, they are likely to dismiss it as fancies from the man they know to put a lot of stock into Blades in the first place.
There is also the possibility there has been no progress since OB and Adolin told… no one, but I guess we’ll have to wait and see.
I am not a big supporter of secrets being kept for the shake of it either: seeing Shallan seems ready to repeat the exact same narrative as in OB did cause me some amount of despair. Still, there are times where not sharing is validated by the narrative and I think this might be one of these times. In other words, I do not think Adolin will tell others because he probably will not be sure himself of what happened and if Maya got quiet after OB, then he might rate it off entirely.
I do agree it would be within Adolin’s nature to try to help, I definitely agree with this, but I don’t think he would do it while thinking he is “reviving her” nor do I think he’d believe he is becoming her knight. I think he would just try to help without really expecting anything more out of it. He does not believe he can be a Radiant: in my mind, his arc has to be about him… believing it or keeping the status quo which, at this point in time, is highly likely to happen.
What I meant when I said Adolin was not an important character has to do with Sanderson’s planning… We all know Adolin was not a character he planned to write about nor planned to have any role in the story besides dying (he died in the first version of WoK). As a result, I do not think he can have an important role. We have to think every single plot and denouement have been planned in advance except for Maya and, as a result, I do not think Maya can be… super important. This being said, I’d love being proven wrong in RoW and to uncover a fantastic Adolin tale who’d be super satisfying even if on the short side, but this isn’t something I believe the clues we have gotten can allow us to think will happen.
I wouldn’t personally mind if Maya turned out to be only about personal growth. If it is coherent, has its own denouement, doesn’t exist to the benefit of other characters, then yeah, I think I would be please with it. I also wouldn’t mind if it had a greater purpose either, I’d love for Adolin to become “important”, but I do not think the clues we have to lend to this. Perhaps you have a different reading on those clues. What do you make of the WoB stating we wouldn’t find out more about Edgedancers before the back half? Wouldn’t you agree it seems to confirm there would be no more Maya action? How do you think the arc can fit in RoW given what we know of it? Adolin seems lock with Shallan in the second arc which is a good place for him (my first pick), but given how this arc seems focused on Shallan, once again, having personal problems, what room could there be for Adolin to have a narrative too?
Perhaps you have a very different reading than I am and perhaps I am being overly pessimistic because this is a narrative I care a lot for. There is a lot of perhaps but where we both seem to agree is the desire to see this narrative conducted in a satisfying manner even if we don’t agree on how it should happen. So let’s hope we will both find satisfaction in what Sanderson has to propose no matter how short or long it may turn out being.
I can’t help but feel that there is a lot of selective amnesia going on about Dalinar here. We know from OB flashbacks that he did not find rape acceptable – in fact we are directly told when Dalinar burns Rathelas to the ground that most of his soldiers weren’t around to remember the times when he and Gavilar came to power where they pillaged cities, and even those who did would remember that he often found excuses to stop it. That alone should tell you all you need to know about Dalinar’s position on the matter (and how his men had been trained) considering he was as fully in the grip of the Thrill (and hence Odium) at that point as at any other. Particularly when you consider that it was only after they had come to power that Dalinar had control of the armies – Gavilar and Sadeas were always in charge before then, with Dalinar focused upon leading the Elites and having no time for generalship. Or, to put it another way, we know for certain that once Dalinar led armies rather than followed his brother, he put a firm stop to rape and pillaging. I don’t think anyone is disputing that Dalinar wasn’t a paragon of virtue in his early years – we just know that there were lines which only a single cataclysmic event made him cross, and even then – at his absolute worst – he still tried to retract his orders only to find that he couldn’t.
As regards Lirin, whilst I find the kind of absolute pacifism he espouses utterly immoral, my qualms with him in this chapter aren’t to do with his pacifism, but rather the way he treats his son. It feels an awful lot like the way Dalinar used to treat Renarin before Dalinar’s ‘pruning’. It also appears that he has made no effort to find out what his son has been through during the time he believed him to be dead (and given the way Syl talks and makes herself visible to Kaladin’s family and her worries about Kaladin, I think it’s fair to say there’s only so much Kaladin could have avoided a persistent enquiry without something being let slip).
It’s the way he dismisses Kaladin – his own son – without trying to understand what might have led to Kaladin being who he currently is that grates with me.
Also, as regards mental illness etc that has come up here (just a fair heads up before you decide to read any further that this is a very personal subject for me) I think it’s worth remembering that depression, anxiety, and many other terms that get used are actually quite vague terms that encompass a lot. There’s a reason that there is no single treatment for depression – indeed a 50% success rate for a form of treatment is considered incredibly high. If you think there’s a simple solution for it you are almost certain to be wrong.
It’s also not as simple as somehow choosing to make changes in yourself to get through your problems. Someone can try to make changes all they want, but without the right environment around them they’ll get nowhere. An obvious example is an abusive relationship. Unless a person gets out of that relationship they aren’t going to be able to heal by just deciding to alter their own mindset. The idea that it is only the victim of depression that can help themselves is just so trite and aggravating to someone who has been fighting depression and anxiety for most of his life.
I’ve spent many, many sleepless nights trying to figure out what to change about myself, but often the very things that need changing are the same things that have been built up in me as the only way of getting through another day. When something is ingrained in you to such an extent that they are reflexive reactions akin to shying away from a blazing fire then they are very hard to change no matter how hard you try. Now imagine that you are in a situation where these same mechanisms are still called upon to keep you going, and you can’t find another coping mechanism to replace it. Many of us are trying to take that step forward. We are trying to change ourselves. We’re just failing – and we are more painfully aware of that fact than you can imagine.
The idea that only a depressed/anxious/whatever person can help themselves might have merit (albeit would still be grotesquely simplistic) in a vacuum, but no-one lives in a vacuum.
@111 afterthought
We know from Oathbringer flashbacks that Sadeas lined women up for “selection”. That’s Torol Sadeas, Dalinar’s good buddy and Gavilar’s close ally. Gavilar talks about how they pillaged every town they conquered and feasted every night on the spoils.
We see him spare exactly one town, and that’s because he wanted to recruit the archer who shot him for his elites. As for all the towns that didn’t have an elite archer that Dalinar wanted on his side…well, those people weren’t quite so lucky.
Dalinar explicitly said that his brother’s war was caused because other people had stuff, and they wanted their stuff, so they took their stuff by murdering anyone who said “No”. When ordinary people do this kind of thing, we call them “thieves” and “murderers” and we lock them up.
I’m fascinated by the fact that you find Lirin’s pacifism “utterly immoral”. Dalinar stands atop a stack of bodies a mile high, and he burned an entire city full of innocent noncombatants. But it is Lirin, the pacifist healer, who draws your condemnation. That’s certainly an interesting worldview.
Dalinar Kholin is to be forgiven for neglecting and verbally abusing his wife, abandoning his kids for a large part of their childhood, and murdering an entire city. Lirin, however, is an utterly awful person because he refuses to approve of his son’s job and insists on treating him coldly. If only the criminal justice system shared your logic, we could lock up all the real criminals who engage in family arguments instead of those noble, misguided soldiers who happen to have committed a murder or ten thousand.
This is Protagonist Centered Morality at its finest. Lirin must be condemned for daring to be rude to one of Our Heroes, while everything Dalinar did in decades as a tyrant, conqueror, and murderer should be set aside because he is the leader of Team Good Guy.
@aftermath
The mental health aspects of SA are so different from what readers of fantasy are accustomed to. Usually what happens is that a protagonist has an issue, something magical happens, and the issue goes away. It may be referred to from time to time but it rarely affects future actions. That’s one of the reasons why I enjoy SA despite how sometimes the characters frustrate me. Because magic isn’t an easy fix. Sometimes magic even makes things worse (I’m looking at you, Shallan! ). I hope you don’t think anyone is denigrating your issues, at least not intentionally. And I hope for anyone who shares some of the same conditions as our beloved characters that you’re getting something good out of these pages.
Re: Adolin and Maya
First, just because the in-world characters believe a thing is impossible doesn’t necessarily mean they are accurate. By that same token, just because a thing that was previously impossible turns out to work doesn’t mean that the process will be instant or work like what we’ve previously seen in similar situations. For example, from what we saw in OB, it seems highly likely that Adolin will reawaken Maya. That can happen even if that’s not specifically something Adolin is attempting to do. But it could be something where she’s just an Abnormal Shardblade for awhile, that she won’t fully awaken until back 5 Stormlight, that she only grants limited powers like one full Surge and the other dormant. Really there are several ways to make the Adolin and Maya show unique and fresh while making him eventually arrive at some sort of Edgedancer.
IMO, Brandon is the type of author who delivers on promises made to his readers. And to me, the way he introduces the Maya storyline constitutes a huge promise to us. An even bigger one because it was unnecessary. He did not have to even give Maya a name much less have her save Adolin or have her wake up in less than 10 seconds. So why would Brandon write the story this way if he wasn’t going to address it in some way? I can almost guarantee that this subplot will be resolved, even if that resolution is long in coming. It won’t be ignored in the meantime either. I can’t guarantee that it’s gonna be satisfying for everyone (Adolin killing Sadeas, I’m looking at you! ), but it will be addressed.
@112 dptullos
I would be very grateful, if you stopped being so harsh on Dalinar and people who try to defend the character here. Dalinar is a very important character to many people struggling with similar psychological problems.
I could misinterpret you, forgive me if I do, but I feel your are passively agressive to your opponent. Choosing phrases like “Protaginist Centered Morality” and “decades as a tyrant, conqueror, and murderer should be set aside because he is the leader of Team Good Guy. ” sounds unnecessarily sarcastic and harsh.
I think you missed a huge part of what Dalinar’s arc is about. It’s fine, your interpretation of these books are of worth, but I think you’re dismissive to those who disagree. I love Dalinar and your sacractic cmments are painful to read. What is worst, I’m afraid you imply our worldview is to support murderers and criminals. That’s not what Dalinar’s story tells us. I believe the other commenter explained what does he think about Lirin and why. People like Dalinar, but “Protaginist Centered Morality” has nothing to do with it.
Please note that I don’t try to shut you down, but I think the last comment of yours questions people’s own morality and worldview based on how they feel towards certain characters.
Thanks for understanding.
Gepeto @110:
Yea, I completely disagree with you about main characters in this story being deterred and rigidly dismissing evidence because something is allegedly “impossible”, when they are constantly bombarded by impossible things happening around and to them anyway. Particularly since there is textual proof that some of them are already aware that spren can’t truly die. They had it repeatedly demonstrated to them that spren can be wrong, too. How many times had the Stormfather been wrong in his proclamations?
My impression of Shallan is that she is far more functional now, so I don’t expect any repetition there. It is just that her DID will never wholly go away. On the plus side, her personas seem to have less invented and insufferable characteristics and share more of her core traits. Veil no longer denigrates “Shallan’s” creativity and scientific curiosity, the Radiant is no longer completely humorless, etc.
As regards the WoB you mention – I never thought that we would learn anything new about the Edgedancers from Adolin becoming one. We already know their second and third Ideals – and in my opinion Maya could only be a former blade of a Third Ideal Knight to be the first revived, because the 4th Ideal is clearly very difficult even for those who have full support of their spren, and I don’t think that the 5th Ideal blades can be saved at all. Captain Notum’s explanation in OB that there is a way to dissolve the oaths without harming the spren until the final Ideal is sworn hints at this. We already know that the Edgedancers can be elegant and deadly. We will learn whether they can have squires in the next chapters, though this WoB suggests that they can. We know how cultivationspren look. What else is there to learn, unless one expects Adolin to reach the Fourth Ideal on-screen and before Lift, which I don’t?
Concerning proto-Adolin dying in WoK prime – well, Szeth was supposed to die at the end of WoR until quite late in the actual writing process of that book, as Sanderson explains in the writing FAQ on his website. And yet, here he is, rocking Nightblood.
I also don’t believe that “revival of a deadeye” sub-plot was primarily conceived just to flesh out Adolin. IMHO, like with Nightblood’s appearance in SA, Sanderson intended the revival to happen anyway because of it’s implications for the overall plot. He just didn’t lock in who exactly would be doing it until later, and well, that’s Adolin now. IMHO, YMMV.
Personally, I see commonalities between what happened to the deadeyes, the Sibling, the parsh lobotomy and possibly even the Heralds, or at least Taln. And Maya’s revival would provide a clue about it. Not to mention that once wholly conscious she would be in position to finally provide us with the full explanation of the Recreance! Which makes me think that her memory won’t be completely restored until some way into book 5.
@112 I’m not sure you read my comment. Yes, we know that Sadeas lined up women (and gave Dalinar an ‘again?’ when he found out Dalinar had promised no rape and pillage) but you’ll notice that I was not basing my argument based on what happened in that flashback. For a couple of reasons – 1) Dalinar was not running the army (we know that he had virtually no interest in anything tactical) and 2) it had very little relevance to the talk about Dalinar’s soldiers and Herdaz.
Instead I chose to base my argument upon what happened in Rathelas and what we are told as being true over his entire career as a general, rather than a single battle at the start of his warmongering where he had next to no impact over what happened in the structure of the army (multiple times in flashbacks of that period the point that he just goes where his brother points is drilled home).
I also specifically said that no-one is arguing Dalinar is anything like a paragon of virtue, so you are arguing against a strawman by your insinuation that I have no condemnation for his actions. I’m arguing about indisputable facts here, not morality.
I also made it crystal clear that my criticism of Lirin had nothing to do with his pacifism. So why do you get angry about me finding Lirin’s absolute pacifism immoral? Again you are arguing against a strawman.
For the record, I find absolute pacifism immoral for a variety of reasons. The only way a peaceful society can be built upon it is if everyone in the world decides to adopt it. Immediately one person goes against it then the whole world burns, and misery and death occur on an unimaginable scale. Look at any of the genocidal tyrants in human history, and imagine what would have happened were the people they attacked to follow Lirin’s philosophy. Imagine what you would think of the people not targeted by said tyrants but who had the power to stop the tyrant, and didn’t because they followed Lirin’s philosophy.
Also, if you have the power to prevent a travesty but choose not to, then that is a moral action that may be judged as moral or immoral. Lirin chooses not to act to prevent travesties and then claims that his refusal to prevent them is the height of morality.
But, again, seeing as my opinions on why Lirin’s brand of pacifism is immoral is utterly irrelevant to the point I was making… I’ve no idea why we are talking about this in the first place.
About Adolin restoring Mayalaran, one point: we know that Syl is capable of independent relationships with humans other than Kaladin now. Surely it isn’t implausible that she might be talking to Adolin and mention how she’s sympathetic to deadeye spren because she almost became one.
If she explains that Kaladin was able to restore her by swearing the Third Ideal, Adolin is smart enough to put two and two together. For that matter, post-Third-Ideal Syl is smart enough to think of this. I can’t see why she wouldn’t mention it.
Honestly, not having that happen in this book would strain credulity.
Now, whether Adolin feels he can or should take the First Ideal is a different question. Whether the First Ideal is enough to “activate” Maya is another. Whether this idea would even work on a full deadeye is something only Brandon and maybe his team (and beta readers?) know. I’m just asserting it would be (to use the metaphor EvilMonkey referenced) breaking a promise to the reader, to just ignore the very possibility.
@116 afterthought
You know, “I was just following orders” is not a new defense. Saying that Dalinar didn’t care about why his brother was waging war doesn’t mean that he was guiltless; it means that he didn’t care enough to find out why he was murdering people. As a result of his choices, he became a person who would slaughter tens of thousands of innocents to put a malevolent narcissist on the throne of Alethkar.
The indisputable fact is that Dalinar butchered thousands of defenseless, terrified conscripts. Then he burned an entire city full of noncombatants to the ground. Dalinar’s entire career as a general was about murdering people and taking their stuff; Rathalas was the logical conclusion of what he did, rather than some kind of exception.
Thank you for your explanation of why you find absolute pacifism immoral. Your argument is, as I understand it, based upon the negative consequences of refusing to do harm. If most people are pacifists, then a very small number of non-pacifists can do anything they want without violence resistance.
This is a true statement, but there are several counterpoints. The first is that, by only healing and never harming, the pacifists are making the world a better place despite the harm done by others. Lirin isn’t hiding and protecting himself; he is risking his own life to heal others.
The second is that, when the world burns, it burns at the hands of the people who are willing to kill. Many of those people have perfectly lovely justifications for why they’re right, why they’re standing up to tyrants, and why their actions will contribute to making a better society. Some of them are even correct! But many more are utterly deluded, and in the course of taking up the sword they become the monsters they sought to oppose.
The soldiers of genocidal tyrants don’t always know what they are. Plenty of them have nothing but derision and contempt for the “immoral” pacifists who don’t understand that their murders are necessary to produce a better world. And that better world will be along any day now, just as soon as they’re done sacking a few more cities or eliminating the rebels/traitors/Jews/kulaks.
I’m not a pacifist myself, and I understand the idea of using violence to prevent greater violence. But it’s worth pointing out that historically humanity has been fairly terrible at actually using swords to create a better world. Most of the time people with swords just use those swords to kill other people and take their stuff. Like, you know, Dalinar Kholin.
Personally, I have a great deal of admiration for the heroic healers who spend their lives helping, even if they aren’t willing to kill to protect. I have somewhat less admiration for the soldiers who spend their lives murdering people. I tend to place the blame for war crimes on the people who actually commit them, rather than the awful, awful pacifists who do their best to help the victims but aren’t willing to respond to murder with more murder.
The irony in your position is that if Lirin was going to fight against evil tyrants, he probably would have tried to murder Dalinar and his brother, who were the most awful, bloodstained tyrants in the entire world.
I did read your comment. I found that it involved a hilarious amount of whitewashing, as though burning a city down was a “cataclysmic event”. The destruction of Rathalas was not an accident; it was a deliberate choice. And long before Rathalas, Dalinar was a murderer and a tyrant, building his brother a throne from the corpses of everyone who stood in their way.
@112: dptullos, I do agree, in a general manner, characters offending main protagonists get labeled more negatively than they should whereas protagonists get excused a lot faster. I made comments about this in the OB re-read when we discussed how Dalinar was viewed next to Amaram, Roshone, and later on Moash.
@113 EvilMonkey, I agree “impossible” does not equate “accurate”, but the reason I brought it up is the fact they think it is impossible will certainly influence how the characters will react to this narrative.
I agree with the general lines you have put forward for Adolin reviving Maya. How you phrased it is approximately how I had envisioned it, but I wondered about this recent WoB stating we wouldn’t find out about Edgedancers until the back five. Even if Adolin goes through a partial revival, wouldn’t this arc focus on, well, Edgedancers?
I agree there is more than one way to generate a satisfying result I didn’t mean to infer I thought there was only one nor that I would personally be satisfied with only one end. I am however trying to reconcile this narrative with recent information which has not proven to be an easy task.
As for promises, well, you did mention the killing of Sadeas which I felt was a promise for rocky aftermath. We all saw where that went and since this twist of events, I no longer trust the concept of “promises to the readers” because readers can have a false idea of what a book promises. Another example would Dalinar in RoW. I have heard readers argue Oahtbringer ended up promising a lot more of Dalinar in future books because he had so many unresolved plotlines (uniting Shards, Ishar, black sphere and so on), but the reality is his role in RoW will be small and short. I personally agree with Sanderson’s decision and I disagree Oathbringer promised large Dalinar narratives for all future books, but other readers interpreted it in a different manner. Much like I thought the ending of WoR promised a lot more Adolin in the future, but others disagreed and it turned out they were right.
All of this is why I think we have to be careful with the concept of readers’ promises. While I agree Sanderson will answer to the promises he agrees he has put forward, he will not necessarily answer to the promises readers believe he has made. The murder of Sadeas and Dalinar in RoW are two examples of promises the readers believed Sanderson made but turned out not to be accurate.
Is Maya one of those cases? What did Sanderson promise exactly when he introduced Maya? He certainly did not promise this would be a major arc because he does not seem to want Adolin to take up this mantle, yet some readers felt he did. Hence what is the promise Sanderson agrees he has made exactly? This is a matter up for debate.
@115: I agree to disagree with you on how in-world characters would react to the impossible. My personal gut feeling is Adolin will have told no one, not trusting what he truly felt/heard. If he did tell anyone, Renarin, for instance, the same gut feeling tells me Renarin would dismiss it. I could be wrong, but this is how I am currently seeing it, so I respectfully agree to disagree with you. Let’s RAFO and see who got it right! I need to state I am not against what you propose, I am merely seeing it differently, at the moment.
I was OK with the Shallan chapter, I enjoyed it, up until I read, elsewhere, the DID was a major focus in the book and I saw others point it out how it seemed like the same narrative, over again. I can’t help shaking that feeling away now: I really do not wish to read another book themed on Shallan struggling with her past and personas, so I hope this will be toned down from OB and not as central. Or, at the very least, that Adolin will take up a substantial amount of the viewpoints in this arc so it won’t be just about Shallan. Those thoughts hadn’t crossed my mind until I read other people have them and now they won’t go away. I love Shallan, but I want her character to be going somewhere as opposed to being static.
I like your explanation about how Adolin could still revive Maya without shedding too much additional light onto the Edgedancers. I really do not wish for considerations such as “Edgedancers are to be explored in the back five” to put a stick into the Maya narrative. Even if Adolin does not progress much, watching him progress will put some focus onto the Edgedancers as an order. This seems inevitable. I personally am in favor of slow progress and I would be ecstatic if he were to say the first ideal the generic one, in RoW, but more, I think, would be too early perhaps? I do agree with you when you say you don’t expect Adolin to say his fourth oath before Lift. I don’t expect this either.
I don’t know if Sanderson had planned for a Blade revival or if this is something he added. I don’t recall hearing him comment on this. I always took it he made this arc for Adolin because he was the only character who wasn’t getting a dedicated focus, but I could be wrong. This statement is based on no hard fact.
@117: The problem is what is a promise and what did Sanderson believe he promised exactly? In my personal experience, there could be a clash between what readers believe the author promised and what the author feels he has promised.
If I recall properly, Syl hated Adolin in OB despite having been a dead-eye, so this does not seem to be why she changed her mind about him. Or maybe she still hates him but wanted fashion advice. It is too early to tell.
@118: I finished reading War and Peace. Napoleon thought he was building a better world when he moved his 600 000 men into Russia, he believed it when he invaded Italy and Prussia, but all he left behind was desolation, carnage, and death. Gavilar too believed he was building a better world and believed the world would be a better place if he ruled it: he left a long trail of murder and blood behind him while turning into a narcissist.
History tells us there weren’t many “good justification” for invading neighbors and most wars end up being terrible.
@43 Gazeboist
I liked the theme of 1 of ten being unique or having something distinctive happen. My number theory is Honor 10, Odium 9, and Cultivation 1. Not only does it link the three shards together in the system, but it gives a reason for the theme of 1 showing up.
Gepeto @108: I tend to forget that English isn’t your first language because you generally write so well (better than many native speakers), but a minor correction: Dalinar and Toh are brothers-in-law, not stepbrothers.
Isilel @106: I know that Lift has not (so far) inhaled Stormlight, but is there text or WoB that she can’t?
And for the “absolute pacifism” argument, I’ll just quickly note that I think “immoral” is the wrong word. In an ideal world, it is definitely the right thing to do, but we are nowhere near that (and probably never will be). I think a better word is “impractical” or “unstable.”
My position hasn’t changed. In the Cosmere the only mortals who are free of divine influence of one degree or another are those who have achieved some sort of investiture, even then that “freedom” is usually at the expense of aligning with another divine entity. I say some degree because the focus of the Shard Bearer or their slivery servants do play into it.
This point has been raised before and I know I have likened BWS’s world building to Greek tragedy. When I read I am careful not to give many of these characters too much credit for their decisions. I am mostly on the lookout for how things are being shaped through the manipulation of events, Shard against Shard.
I’m inclined to give most everyone in the Cosmere some type of grace as to their participation or attitude. Even Moash (yeah, yeah, not a popular viewpoint I’m sure). Everyone except those present at the Shattering. And even they become more attribute/intent than morally autonomous entity as the centuries pass by. So it’s less Shard Vs Shard and more Attribute Vs. Attribute until a Shard Bearer kicks it and someone else takes it up.
And now my brain is filled with Commodore 64 flashbacks.
@116 Again you are arguing against points I’m not making. This is frustrating. Rather than assuming you know what I am arguing, please assume that you don’t, and then try to find out. (Also, I notice you went strangely quiet about my _actual_ issues with Lirin’s behaviour in this chapter in order to focus on a throwaway remark intended to distance my criticism of him from this very subject. Presumably because you didn’t feel you had a leg to stand on in his defence. Or else you just haven’t read my comments.)
There is absolutely no whitewashing going on. I don’t know how much plainer I can say that I am not excusing what Dalinar did – I am just excusing him from accusations of what he did not do.
Saying that Dalinar was in the middle of a cataclysmic event after he had just had a mountain fall upon him, been so lost in the Thrill (a mind altering/controlling demi-godlike entity) that he had massive blackouts where he had no awareness of what he had done, returned to his warcamp half crazed and exhausted to discover that his wife had been captured by the people of Rathelas and snapped is hardly whitewashing. It is bald facts. There is no whitewashing of what he had done – there is merely the point that this is the solitary point in his life that evidence can be found that Dalinar was willing to allow his soldiers (HIS, not someone else’s but Dalinar’s soldiers) to rape and pillage and that even then in that moment where he had no self control, even then he still tried to rescind his order (but was too late) once he started to regain some of his senses.
This doesn’t excuse anything Dalinar did, it merely makes the point that if in these precise circumstances it is still a line that he is unwilling to cross, then the idea that his soldiers (again, HIS: not Alethi, but Dalinar’s soldiers) were merrily raping and pillaging Herdaz with his approval (tacit or otherwise) is utterly ludicrous.
I’m not going to go through the rest of what you said like that, other to point out that I made no argument that Dalinar was just following orders. Again, I am not removing his culpability of what he and Gavilar did when they came to power (although I would make the point that applying today’s morality in such a way is also not very sensible. You can only judge someone’s morality in comparison to their environment and peers. You’d be lucky to find anyone who lived as recently as 50 years ago that we would consider ‘moral’ today, let alone in the zeitgeist of a fantasy world set hundreds of years ago in ethical terms to our own and which also includes evil deities capable of influencing people’s thoughts). I’m saying that Dalinar’s actions, thoughts, et al inform us as to his beliefs about one specific question.
As regards absolute pacifism being immoral, no; you are simplifying my argument grotesquely. If I had to boil it down with more accurate gross simplifications it would possibly be thus:
A decision not to do something is still open to moral critique. A moral decision to not do something can still cause harm, and thus Lirin’s refusal to take direct action is a moral decision which in some circumstances directly causes grievous harm.
As regards absolute pacifism, I consider refusal to intervene physically _no matter what the consequences_ to be a deeply immoral position to take. It’s the exact same thought process that led to scapegoating. If you push the blame for your choices entirely onto other people, then you are sin free. In a way it’s the same kind of thinking that led to stoning, because if you don’t know who threw the stone that killed the poor wretch that you can’t be blamed for their murder.
It’s incredibly ironic that you are launching this defence of Lirin in the very same comment you wrongly accused me of doing something similar as Dalinar as regards ‘just following orders’.
Personally, I’m not going to force my morality on other people, but when those people (or fictional characters) censoriously judge other people for not doing the same immoral thing they are, then I’ll push back.
Oh, incidentally – although it really shouldn’t matter – for the record? I am personally a pacifist (functionally at the very least). There are very, very few things that would cause me to engage in violence – and I’ve taken blows (physical not metaphysical ones) whilst refusing to respond in kind. But I understand that absolute pacifism (like almost all absolutes) is grievously harmful.
@121: platypus, thank you for the correction! Indeed, my native language has fewer terms to described relationships between family members. For instance, there is no distinction between stepbrother or brother-in-law: in both cases, we would use the same word. I do know the right terms in English, but I missed this while writing, so thanks for pointing it out.
And thanks for the praises on my writing! This was such a hard/long process, learning how to properly write in English. My first English professional email took me an hour to write and it had only 2 sentences. This is when I realized I didn’t know how to write sentences in English. I am glad I have managed to get good enough to almost pass as a native even though I still struggle with those verbs tenses, they sound all the same in my head!
@afterthought
I just wanted to say that I have appreciated reading your comments in this discussion, and in my opinion you have handled yourself very well in this ongoing debate. I may not entirely agree with your views on Dalinar, but your points are well made and worth consideration.
Something that came to mind from your most recent comments on pacifism, specifically the part about lack of action being as much of a moral issue as an action, was Asimov’s Laws of Robotics. Unlike some, I am not espousing them as an end-all-be-all of machine morality, but the second part of the first law seems applicable. “No robot may harm a human being, *or through inaction, allow a human being to come to harm* (emphasis mine).” In chapter 6 of the book “I, Robot,” the main characters have an interesting discussion on why that last half is so important. Essentially, if one allows inaction as morally acceptable, then one can take actions in the knowledge that potential negative consequences are reversible, then sit by without taking action when said consequences come to pass. The correlation is not one to one, and I understand that the example is imperfect, but it is worth pondering.
@Gepeto
Your English is excellent! If you will pardon my curiosity, what is your native language?
Bad_platypus @121:
We have seen that Lift couldn’t infuse stormlight from gems during the battle of Thaylenah, when she asked about the foodstores in order to replenish her investiture when charged gems from the Bank Reserve were lying all around. But there is also this WoB:
Laryyl (paraphrased)
[Can Lift] get Stormlight from spheres like normal or if it’s just from food for her.
Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)
She can only get it from food.
Laryyl (paraphrased)
Which [is it] related to her boon or her curse?
Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)
RAFO.
Arcanum Unbounded Fort Collins signing (Nov. 29, 2016)
If we’re taking sides here I’d have to agree with afterthought, at least in Dalinar’s case. Nothing I’ve seen of his character would lead me to believe that he’d allow those under his command to rape and pillage populaces. Nobody gets the reputation he has by allowing such actions under his watch. Let’s not add extra crimes onto the man, his past actions are quite bloody enough as it is. That’s not to say the Alethi Armies have never engaged in such activities, either against their own countrymen or foreign enemies. Having Sadeas command an army pretty much guarantees this. We can discuss whether murdering an entire battlefield worth of enemies is better or worse than winning a battle and reaping the spoils with rape and pillage. I know Dalinar is guilty of one. I don’t believe he’s guilty of the other.
On the issue of absolute pacifism, the morality of it is sort of beside the point. Lirin argues for that position but that’s not what he’s doing. Lirin is in no position to do what Kaladin does, he hasn’t the skill or the inclination to kill in order to protect. He’s a surgeon who will treat anyone who needs it regardless of which side they claim or what it may cost him. It’s the same creed by which RL doctors operate. So should he not treat Singers because they’re the enemy? Should he attempt to pick up a spear and try to fight the invaders? Despite his objections to fighting he still does his part for the war effort. He’s not running out trying to undermine the revolution. And he’s still speaking truth to power. For anyone else his actions would be praiseworthy. And for me that isn’t my problem with him anyway. All I want is for him not to treat his son like crem, to acknowledge that Kaladin is doing what he believes is right and that he’s suffering for it. It would not kill him to show his son some love even though they disagree on their personal world views.
Marbelcal’s comment (15) made me think all evening about Navani and the Sibling – especially her work on fabrials and the chapter headings. I wonder if it even goes further than that?
Maybe Urithiru isn’t powered by a Bondsmith and their bond. Maybe it’s powered by *capturing* the Sibling against its will and imprisoning it in the giant fabrial. In that case, Navani might be one of the only ones with the expertise to do so and would have to make a very hard choice given that she would know what she was doing. She would have to choose between acting as queen and saving her people, vs acting as herself and going against her values to imprison an innocent self-aware spren. So maybe this is where her character arc is going rather than as a knight radiant – maybe imprisoning the spren means giving up being a knight radiant. I love Navani, so I would prefer the knight radiant track! Or that if it does go this way, that there is some third option..
Anyway, just my late night musings! I’m loving this read through and this community :)
I think Lirin’s behavior toward Kaladin is totally within character for him. As we saw in WOK, he’s always been reserved, not showing much affection. He’s always been authoritarian regarding Kaladin’s studies, not unlike many of today’s parents who have ambitions for their children. Of course, Lirin is disappointed that his son not only didn’t fulfill his own dream of becoming a Karbranth trained physician, but chose to become that which he hates most–a soldier. Does Lirin need to let go of his disappointment? Absolutely. Hopefully, this arc of Kaladin’s (and Lirin’s) story will be about reconciliation.
@129 Yes, this!
@126: Thanks! I am French.
Lirin doesn’t approve of Kaladin’s choice to fight because he sees it as the cause of Kaladin’s suffering. He is frustrated because Kaladin refuses to agree with this view and stop fighting.
@133 Yes, this is definitely a factor.
I am not clear on precisely who was in top command during the first Dalinar chapter in Oathbringer (“Momentum”), whether it was Dalinar or Sadeas or both, but that chapter makes it quite clear that “rape and pillage” was the usual order of business and that particular town was only exempted as a favour/concession to Dalinar’s new crossbowman recruit.
And as regards pacifism and ‘sins of omission’ – when your country is a brutal empire with a bunch of nobles who are engaged in pointless infighting, and is also fighting a purposeless forever-war for vengeance where the nobles grind commoners into the ground for wealth and prestige, pacifism is absolutely the moral option. And that is the situation Lirin has lived in for all of his life up to the past year. The latest conflict is a slave revolt, where the ‘good’ and ‘bad’ sides are far from clear to someone on the ground. For people who aren’t familiar with the threat of Odium, the arguments in favour of violence aren’t strong ones.
I expect the Mink to be a good foil to Dalinar. It seems he is likely to be a Radient at some point too.
I think Shallen is getting better. The 3 parts of her are more integrated and perhaps that is how she will eventually get the courage to look back and see. I suspect there will be a crisis to precipitate the accepting and blending into the person she needs to be.
While the air ship is wonderful it has so many parts that could go wrong. I bet the Fused do attack so we’ll see how Navani has prepared.
I absolutely agree with Katherin @135. A good response. I agree with it.
I definitely think the tone Navani heard is somehow related to the Soul Tone from WoK Prime.
I disagree with not liking Lirin because he refuses to look at it from Kaladin’s point of view. Storms people, take it from Lirin’s perspective, some of us are accusing Lirin of not seeing things from Kaladin’s perspective, and not looking at Lirin’s. Put yourself in his shoes, what could have led up to him acting this way? First, he’s a father whose sons were taken to battle one killed, and the other presumed dead. As Evilmonkey said in 52 regarding Navani, “Emotional scars take far longer to heal than mere physical ones.” How would you like war if both of your children were taken and killed in one, then you found out that one was alive, but kept doing it, and could get himself killed?
Then he’s a surgeon, he’s seen the bad things war can do, and does not want his son doing it, when he could be helping the injured and saving lives instead of killing them, and being a surgeon might go better with the ideals, since you can heal anyone and don’t have to decide which side to help like in Oathbringer when he does not know if he should help his Parshmen friends, or his human friends. Lirin also might be able to see his son’s depression and thinks that if he stops him from killing and instead, helping people, he might get better, and Lirin might know some people who kill and get the screams and thinks that helping others may get rid of them if Kaladin hears them. And how do we know Lirin is not suffering any depression himself?
I did think that Lirin was like the Traveling People/Tinkers, and if he does decide to leave Hearthstone (I don’t remember which number said that, sorry) then he will be even more like them, because when asked what they would do if someone had come to kill them, they said they would let them, not run. If Lirin refuses to leave, then he would be like them letting the ones who could kill him control him instead of running away. He also seems to agree with the Way of the Leaf, because he thinks there is no reason for one human to hurt another it seems from what he has said.
As for the phrase “Any idiot with hands can hold a spear. I trained your hands for something better.” Lirin definitely needs to think a bit more before he says this, because any idiot can put on a bandaid, that would be the equivalent of an idiot holding a spear. But I do get why he says this, it just needs to be phrased better, maybe, A man trained in the spear would not be as useful as a man trained in surgery, because when it comes to saving someone you can’t kill to stop the blood flow of a wound that could be fatal, or something like that? Also, Lirin sees the world as a better place if the world had surgeons and no soldiers, because there would be no one to hurt others, and all the help you could get if you were hurt.
I could come up with more, but I should probably wrap up. Everyone makes mistakes, I don’t think we should dislike Lirin just because he made one, especially one you might have made in saying he was bad, I don’t know if you did because I don’t know if you thought of things like this. Of course, I don’t think what Lirin is saying is good or right, and it would be fun to write something like this to Lirin, but no one is perfect, and Lirin is being stubborn, and I hope Lirin will soon find he should change his perspective, but I hope you can see where I believe Lirin is coming from and why he might be doing as he is and not dislike him for his actions.
@edgedancer07, but Lirin was like this before Tien got drafted. He was always rigid and bad at listening to his son. Something happened in his still-unrevealed past to give him this attitude, and traumas have only made it more extreme. (That’s not true of real-world psychology, necessarily, but it’s what happens in narrative.)
True, but Tien’s death probably made it worse. Also, about what could have made Lirin like this before, do you think he could have chosen soldier over surgeon one time, and it turned out bad, and he does not want it to happen to Kaladin so he was going to send him to get trained as a surgeon so that it would be an easier choice if Kaladin ever had to choose? Does he want to get Kaladin out before something bad like what possibly could have happened to him happens to Kaladin and drives him down so far in his depression it may seem there is no way to come back? Anyways just some theories, please tell me if you have other ideas that could add on to this.
WoB Spoiler about Lirin blacked out here:
Brandon has revealed that Hesina is part-Lighteyes. Presumably her well-of family has rejected her because she married a mere surgeon. I would expect that to deeply wound Lirin, who is very touchy about his status, and also totally un-self-aware of that.
Oh yes, that could have affected it, and about him being touchy about his status, that could be one reason he does not like Kaladin being a soldier.
I’m kind of surprised I didn’t see this theory in posts above. Sorry if I missed it.
I think that the combination of the guess that the Sibling (Odium’s lead spren, we think) is essential for Urithiru and that the gems resisted even the perpendicularity’s stormlight indicates that Urithiru is powered by Voidlight.
@51 I wasn’t surprised that Shallan still has secrets, though I am *very* interested to find out how her rabbit hole can go even deeper. Two main reasons why I’m not surprised there’s more. First, she hasn’t said a 4th oath yet, or obtained her plate. For her order, that should mean she has more secrets to speak that are somehow beyond the ones she already said. But more interesting than that: as a child, she already had pattern. Presumably that means there were already lies that drew him to her.
Shallan’s state of mind(s) may be unhealthy, I’d worry about her if she was a real person in my real life, and I’m a tad anxious about what mess her current reckless behaviour could lead her into. But as a reader, I quite enjoy her three heartfelt personalities sharing work in accordance with their inclinations, and conversing in snarky banter, instead of fighting for dominance. I want ALL of the Sanderson Snarking ALL of the time.
Kaladin’s depression might or might not be a factor in his current insomnia. I generally don’t have insomnia, though depeession can make me stay up too late wanting to keep my mind occupied with external things, but when my despair is worst and my mind is roiling, I can statt thinking “I just want to sleep forever, but I don’t know how I’ll ever sleep again.” But I believe it probably is a factor in his relentless and very relatable self-shaming, here manifesting as thinking he’s gone weak (or something) for being upset about a little sleep loss when he used to endure much worse physical pain, privations, and living conditions. I’ve shamed and blamed myself over every little and big thing for as long as I can remember, but I think my depression worsened it by encouraging more exrreme thoughts like “You’re a failure forever” and “This mistake will make your life even worse.”
I hope Lift’s growth spurt hints that she’s finally getting enough extra food to fuel her growth as well as whatever Surgebinding she’s been doing. I’m jealous of rhe Edgedancers she works with, because, as I’ve said many times before, she is The Best Ever..
Add on to 143: What if Lirin’s family has a history of being surgeons?
145: I agree on you with Lift, she’s awesome!
I am actually finding a lot of the interpersonal stuff more interesting than the battles etc (although I have a hard time visualizing battles so I glazed over for a lot of that). I find Lirin to be an interesting (even if sometimes frustrating) character and his interactions with Kaladin are interesting. In some ways I find his antipathy towards ‘idiot with spears’ to be a little similar to my antipathy in the past towards jocks. I still don’t really relate to jocks in general, but I’ve mellowed a bit on my opinion. But it does make me wonder if there’s some other past issue motivating it; or if he just basically views himself as a bit ‘above’ Alethi posturing (not that I blame him). stormbrother@22 – that’s actually a really good comparison (between Lirin and the Tinkers). I also almost see some similarity between him and T with him possibly being willing to let Odium win if it just means he can save some people. In a way it’s almost like pacifism/non-violence taken to an extreme degree. On one hand, there is something noble about his willingness to serve/heal both sides and recognize their inherent dignity, but there’s also an uncomfortable amount of false equivocation that he does, as if nothing is worth fighting for/against.
I find Kaladin’s struggles with depression/despair to be really real as well, and depression has definitely caused me to not be able to sleep and just…stare into the void at night.
I still find Syl to be really annoying (minority opinion, I know) – I think it’s that ‘I’m so clever/sassy’ air she has. Like she’s trying way too hard and to me her concern always feels like she’s hassling him.
Actually the thing with Lyn breaking up with him totally rang true to me, and I really hope the real Lyn doesn’t get grief for it, beause Kaladin is not entitled to a girlfriend. We know he can’t really emotionally relate to others right now. So, honestly, more power to Lyn for realizing that and moving on. (Although honestly, I do find ‘Lyn’ to take me out of the story every time because I know the origins).
I wonder what it means (because surely it means something) that the epigraphs are all about fabrial mechanics and capturing spren. But! That is an interesting tidbit about larkins and Aimia.
I love Navani’s ship. Love it :) Even if she isn’t the best at math, or engineering, or the most brilliant, there is still something to be said for effective project management/inspiration. Not everybody has it. [ETA – hah, the funny thing is I wrote that on the previous post, before I read Alice’s commentery on thes topic so it’s funny that we came up with the same two terms here]. It does seem like she still has some baggage/stuff she needs to work through regarding speaking her mind/feelings and her own self image. The little glimpse into Elkohar’s personality (from a mother’s perspective) is bittersweet. Aluminum is always such an interesting tid bit when it comes up.
@36 – I’ve also wondered if there as an Odium-analog but as others have pointed out it doesn’t totally fit with the timeline/cosmology of Roshar (and also, why would it have died during the Recreance?).
@106 – if Evi’s brother IS among the Herdazians I think that also adds some really interesting possibilities to what happens when the truth of her death comes out.
@Lisamarie:
There are at least two other characters based on real people Brandon knows in the preview chapters released so far. Tuckerization is apparently something Brandon enjoys.
I vote for option #3: Ethical Crisis.
I don’t think the humans are so culpable for using the Parshmen as draft animals when that is what they seemed to be forever. Yes, sins of the fathers; yes, there were reasons to question. But if it turns out horses were sentient before recorded history, I don’t think we would have to beat ourselves up about it. Just stop, treat them as people, and give them a hand joining society on an equal footing.
But now humans are on notice, they should think twice about whom they enslave. So now if there is an Industrial Revolution driven by fabrials it will mean humans today should have known better.
I actually think introducing chapters with lectures about how to enslave spren is meant to make the readers squirm, if not at first sight then in retrospect when the characters confront the issue. There may also be a twist involved, like sentient spren being *grown up* common spren. Then all those lectures will sound in retrospect painfully cruel, akin to: “Poor kids can be lured into cages with fresh fruit but fancy confections work better for entrapping kids in wealthier neighborhoods. After that feed them a modest balanced diet, always keeping them at least a little hungry to maximize labor output.”