Happy Thursday, my Cosmere Chickens! I hope you’re all doing well, and are excited to jump into another Navani chapter with Alice and me. This week we’re looking at a lot of relationships. Navani and Dalinar, Navani and Jasnah, Sebarial and Palona, Jasnah and Wit, Dalinar and his sons (both real and surrogate)… there’s a lot going on in regards to interpersonal connections. We’ve also got some more Cosmere tidbits in the epigraph (as usual), and some speculation on Nightblood. Join us, won’t you?
Reminder: We’ll be discussing spoilers for the entirety of the series up until now. If you haven’t read ALL of the published entries of the Stormlight Archive (including Edgedancer and Dawnshard as well as the entirety of Rhythm of War), best to wait to join us until you’re done.
In this week’s discussion we also discuss some things from Shadows for Silence in the Forests of Hell in the Front Matter section and a little about Nightblood (from Warbreaker) in the Cosmere Connections section, so if you haven’t read those, best to give those sections a pass.
Heralds: Jezrien, Herald of Kings. Windrunners. Protecting/Leading. Role: King.
Nalan (Nale), Just/Confident, Herald of Justice. Skybreakers. Role: Judge
L: Very odd choices for Heralds for this chapter. At first I was inclined to think that maybe they were representative of the people Navani was closest to in the chapter, namely Dalinar and Jasnah. I suppose Navani herself is exhibiting aspects of leadership, though justice is a harder sell.
A: Honestly, the only solid reason I can think of for Nale is that for a few minutes, Navani’s thoughts dwell on our resident Skybreaker, Szeth. He is going to be important on Dalinar’s mission, so… maybe? There’s also that bit where Navani is coming up with ways to keep people orderly and cooperative in the tower; would that be relevant? It’s actually more about leading than about making laws, but that’s all I’ve got. Unless Sebarial is a Skybreaker-in-waiting!
L: Ah yeah, that’s true, Szeth does sort of make an appearance, doesn’t he? That would make sense.
Icon: Fabrial gemstone (Navani)
Epigraph:
That said, the most worrying thing I discovered in this was the wound upon the Spiritual Realm where Ambition, Mercy, and Odium clashed—and Ambition was destroyed. The effects on the planet Threnody have been… disturbing.
L: Hoo boy! Lots of interesting stuff here. Threnody is the planet where Shadows for Silence in the Forests of Hell takes place. (This is, in my opinion, still one of the coolest titles Brandon’s come up with.) We know very, very little about Mercy, other than that it still exists. Nor do we know much for certain about whatever strange effects Ambition’s destruction have wrought on the planetary system. But whatever they are, that certainly doesn’t bode well for Odium’s plans to destroy more of the shards…
A: It’s a fair guess that the shades on Threnody are a result of the conflicting Investitures in that system, but as you say, we know so little about any of it. The first we heard of Mercy was two epigraphs ago, when Harmony said, “Mercy worries me.” Talk about insufficient information! WoB tells us that there is no Shard resident on Threnody, so we know Mercy didn’t stay there, but that’s about it.
Oh, speaking of Threnody, we might as well remind everyone that Nazh is from there—and intends to stay as far away from there as he can. How he got off the planet is still unknown, I think; there’s no perpendicularity there.
Chapter Recap
WHO: Navani
WHERE: Urithiru
WHEN: 1175.4.3.4 (about two weeks after Shallan and Adolin’s departure, and about a week after Kaladin’s last chapter)
(Note: For the “when” notations, we are using this wonderful timeline provided by the folks at The 17th Shard.)
Navani sees Dalinar and Jasnah (and little Gav) off, on their way to war. She has a discussion with Sebarial in which she sends him to restore order in the warcamps on the Shattered Plains, then discovers a strange room with a to-scale model of Urithiru in it. On her way out, the mysterious spanreed blinks, indicating a new message from her strange corresponder…
Overall Reactions
“Integrity doesn’t stop men from killing, Brightness,” Sebarial said. “It just makes them use different justifications.”
“Do you really want to draw a moral equivalency between wholesale conquest and resisting the Voidbringer invasion? Do you genuinely believe that a man of integrity is the same as a murderer?”
L: Well, isn’t that a fascinating philosophical dilemma. I don’t think it’s as cut and dry as Navani seems to believe it is, though… considering that this was the singers’ world to begin with, and the humans are invaders.
A: I don’t believe we know enough yet to call the humans “invaders.” They were brought to Roshar from Ashyn by Honor, as far as we know, so I don’t think that constitutes an “invasion.” As for what happened afterward, there are a lot of assumptions floating around, but we really don’t know. (And because the assumptions are so obvious and easily made, I tend to mistrust them.) Who initiated hostilities? Why? How? We don’t know those answers yet—and in any case, I’m not a fan of holding all humanity responsible for what their ancestors from 7000 years ago may or may not have done.
L: Well, we as readers don’t know the facts, this is true. But this is the knowledge the characters have, what they currently believe to be the truth.
Reputations were banners also. Jasnah had crafted a distinctive persona. People halfway around the world knew about her. Dalinar had done the same thing. Not as deliberately, but with equal effect.
But what banner did Navani want to fly?
L: And here we have the theme of Navani’s entire character arc for this book.
Buy the Book
The Witness for the Dead
A: Indeed. This chapter, much like the Prologue, gives us a micro version of Navani’s arc.
A different life, one that she wanted rather than one she thought she should want. Yet here she found herself doing the same things as before. Running a kingdom for a man who was too grand to be contained by simple day-to-day tasks.
A: There’s a huge contrast, of course; Dalinar is at least aware of her efforts and appreciates them, rather than sneering at her for the things she doesn’t do. He’s never treated her as abominably as Gavilar did, and he doesn’t make arrangements without telling her while expecting her to just take care of it. In Urithiru, she has the respect and authority she never really achieved in Kholinar. She is good at running a kingdom, too—though in my opinion she still needs to learn to delegate more; the queen shouldn’t need to review sanitation reports unless there’s an actual problem that needs her authority to mitigate. The increase in random fights is an interesting example; she spends some time looking at traffic patterns to find ways to mitigate the crowding, rather than increase the guards, which will probably reduce the actual issues rather than merely intimidate people. She is good with people and problem-solving, but she’s also good at so much more.
L: She’s treating the cause rather than the symptom. Kaladin and Lirin would likely approve.
Relationships and Romances
He reached down to cup her cheek. … The honor guard stood tall and tried to ignore Dalinar and Navani. Even this little sign of affection wasn’t particularly Alethi. That was what they told themselves, anyway. The stoic warriors. Not ruined by emotion.
L: I really love how affectionate they are with one another, especially since it’s kind of taboo in their culture. They love one another so much that they’re past the point of caring what the others think, and I find that incredibly lovely.
A: And the snark in me loves the way they make everyone else uncomfortable. “Oh, just pretend you didn’t see that, everyone…”
After that, the two of them went to meet the governess who had brought little Gav, with his trunks of things. The young boy—trying hard not to look too eager—saluted Dalinar.
“It is a big duty,” Dalinar told him, “going to war for the first time. Are you ready?”
“I am, sir!” the child said. “I’ll fight well!”
L: Oh my goodness. This precious little child. After everything he’s been through, I’m happy to see him here, excited about something (even if that something is going to war… it does make sense for an Alethi child, though).
A: It makes a ton of sense—and now that we know how things turn out, I’m really glad he goes with Dalinar! Can you imagine the impact on the child if he were still in the tower when the Fused take it over?
L: Oh storms, I hadn’t considered that.
“He’s young to be going.”
“I know,” Dalinar said. “But I owe him this. He feels terrified to be left behind again in a palace while…” He left it unsaid.
L: MY HEART.
Navani knew there was more. Things Dalinar had said about how he’d been angry when younger, and had prevented Adolin and Renarin from spending time with him when they wanted to.
L: Interesting. I do wonder if Dalinar is subconsciously trying to atone for his mistakes with Adolin and Renarin by being a good father to Gav… but. (And this is a big but!) He’s still got Adolin and Renarin, and isn’t exactly doing a fantastic job of atoning with them personally, as is evident by his interactions with Adolin earlier in the book. Maaaaaaybe concentrate on mending the relationships you’ve already got, Dalinar, before adding another one on…
A: While I agree that he needs to work on better communication and interaction with his sons, I’m glad he’s not putting off Gavinor’s needs until he fixes those relationships first. He’s been very supportive of Renarin, and for now Adolin is out of reach. But Gavinor is right here, and he’s a little boy who will grow up all too soon. He needs this, and he needs it now.
Oh, and yes, he’s totally trying to make up for his mistakes with his sons.
“No Wit?” Navani asked.
“He promised to meet me in Azir,” Jasnah said. “He vanishes sometimes, and won’t grace my questions with answers. Not even mocking ones.”
“There is something odd about that one, Jasnah.”
“You have no idea, Mother.”
L: This really makes me wonder just how much Wit has told Jasnah about… everything.
A: This made me laugh so hard—especially on a reread. We know he hasn’t told her everything, but he’s told her enough to know that he’s older than dirt and basically immortal. Even this early, it’s fairly obvious that he’s told her a lot of things no one else knows. Something odd about that one, indeed!
“Storms,” Jasnah said under her breath. “Mother, are we really so awkward that we embrace like teenagers meeting a boy for the first time?”
“I don’t want to ruin your image,” Navani said.
“A woman can hug her mother, can’t she? My reputation won’t come crashing down because I showed affection.”
L: As someone who has had a… somewhat troubled relationship from time to time with my own mother, I can completely understand this. Sometimes you do genuinely want to show affection, but when there seems like there’s a wall of past experiences and misunderstandings in your way, it can be hard to navigate the “right” way to do so.
A: As someone who had a good relationship with her mother all her life, I cannot relate—but I can still understand it. It just makes me wonder even more about Jasnah’s childhood. Navani said once that Jasnah refused to be mothered, and there are strong indications that she was a difficult child to raise. But there’s also that “illness” thing, and we have no idea what Navani’s role in that situation might have been. Navani hasn’t given us any hints about it that I recall.
L: Yeah, I’m going to be really interested to see Jasnah’s flashbacks when we eventually get them. I really hope that Navani wasn’t completely hands-off, or unaccepting (like Lirin) of whatever Jasnah was going through. That would make me very sad, as I do like Navani a great deal.
“The quickest changes in history often happen during times of strife, and these are important moments. But you’re important too. To me. Thank you. For always being you, despite the rise of kingdoms and the fall of peoples. I don’t think you can understand how much your constant strength means to me.” …
…that moment together—seeing through the mask—became more precious than a hundred awkward embraces.
L: This is so sweet. This whole chapter seems to have a theme of mending bridges worn down by time. Dalinar trying to atone for his mistakes with his sons… Jasnah trying to bridge the gap between herself and her mother…
“If she took me seriously, Brightness, I’d be a married man.” He sighed. “I can’t decide if she thinks me unworthy of her, or if somehow she’s decided a highprince shouldn’t marry someone of her station.”
L: Orrrrr she could think that “marriage” is largely a meaningless concept and changes nothing about the relationship except for legal purposes. Just sayin’…
A: She could, but that doesn’t seem to be the case for Palona. There’s an undercurrent, and always has been.
“If a man takes nothing in his life seriously, it makes a woman wonder. What is she? Another joke? Another whim?”
“Surely she knows her value to me, Brightness.”
“Surely there is no problem in making it clear.” Navani patted him on the arm. “It is difficult not to question your value to someone who seems to value nothing.
L: Unsurprisingly wise words from Navani. “Hey, Sebarial. Maybe try communicating instead of just assuming things.”
A: I’ve gotta admit that I’ve come to really like Sebarial, but he does have some blind spots. Communicate? Why would he want to start that? Goof.
Bruised and Broken
“I always told myself that when I finished my travels, I’d work diligently to be available to you all. I recognize that family relations need attendant time to…” Jasnah took a deep breath, then pressed her safehand against her forehead. “I sound like a historical treatise, not a person, don’t I?”
L: I adore Jasnah.
A: This was pitch perfect.
Cosmere Connections
Though the sheath to his strange sword had required some physical decorations and disguises, as a Lightweaving wouldn’t stick to it.
L: This doesn’t surprise me. Nightblood consumes Investiture, so it makes sense that any illusion anyone tried to attach to it, would just get “eaten.”
A: The sheath is also made of aluminum, which resists Investiture, so in my opinion, even without Nightblood in it, the sheath wouldn’t accept a Lightweaving.
Geography, History, and Cultures
They had three they could count on. Aladar, Sebarial, and Hatham. Bethab and his wife had fallen into line, which left Ruthar the lone holdout of hostility—the last remnant of Sadeas’s faction against Dalinar.
L: Just taking note of this for future reference…
A: LOL.
…she entered the tower by its broad front gates. The temperature change was immediate, though with these broad gates standing open all day, the inner foyer should have been as cold as the plateau outside.
L: Some of Urithiru’s powers are still active, at least. I can’t wait for the next book, to see what amazing things are now happening with the tower now that the Sibling is awake…
A: Right? It’s been fun to see some of the things that are working, along with all the things that aren’t. And it’s going to be an absolute blast to see what it will do.
Standing in front of that window was an odd structure: a tall stone model of the tower. She’d read about it in the report, but as she approached, she was still surprised by its intricacy. The thing was a good fifteen feet tall, and was divided in two—the halves pulled apart—to give a cross section of the tower. At this scale, floors weren’t even an inch tall, but everything she saw about them was reproduced in intricate detail.
L: We know from later events in the book that this contains one of the nodes. It’s really neat… kind of reminds me of those scaled-down dollhouses you see in the old mansions in so many horror movies.
A: I would really like someone to build this thing for reals. It would be so beautiful.
I also (being me) have to call out the whole thing with the “hidden room.”
“So the rooms were sealed off before the Radiants left?”
“Or,” Falilar said, “they could open and close some other way. When the tower was abandoned, some were already closed, others open.”
“That would explain a lot.” They’d found so many rooms with actual doors—or, the remnants of ones rotted away—that she hadn’t considered that there might be other mechanisms on undiscovered rooms.
A: First of all, I totally do not understand why the old Radiants would have used wooden doors for some rooms, and the fabrial-activated sliding doors for others. Was it only “important” places that had the sliding doors, while ordinary-use rooms had wooden ones so they wouldn’t have to keep going around charging them up? I’d think they would have normally been charged by the Sibling’s power, so that shouldn’t have mattered. However, we know that the Sibling had started to “withdraw” before the Radiants actually left Urithiru. Did they close some of the doors—either to rooms like this with significant artifacts, or those that were merely unused—during those last years, and then put wooden doors up on the rest of them for the sake of privacy? Do all the rooms have fabrial doors, and we’ll find out once everything is functioning? For every cool answer we get, I have more questions.
L: If I’m not misremembering, the fabrial-powered doors needed Radiants to infuse the gemstone to open them, though, didn’t they? So maybe those rooms were the ones specifically needed by Radiants, whereas the mundane wooden door rooms were the ones that all of the other “normal” people in the tower (like servants) would need to use.
A: Oh, but do note the foreshadowing here.
“There was a gemstone embedded in the stone,” Falilar said. “I had him get it out for us to inspect. I intend to have him see if perhaps the rock was somehow intended to slide open to the sides there. If so, it would be a remarkable mechanism.”
A: Which, of course, is exactly what it was. This is such a minor note that it’s really only noticeable on a reread, but it’s going to be exciting to watch Kaladin make use of these doors later.
Humans
Curiously, Jasnah—who often took extra care not to seem weak—almost always used a palanquin these days.
L: I’m pointing this one out because Navani calls it out as strange, and it isn’t explained in the text, so… this makes me suspicious. What’s going on, here?
A: At least partly, I think it’s for the sake of the comparison to Taravangian.
…Jasnah seemed stronger when carried. More confident, in control.
L: So I mean… we know that Jasnah is all about image, and how perception affects treatment. She does things like wearing makeup specifically in order to get the type of treatment that she wants. She’s a master manipulator of perception, and understands how certain actions will affect things. Is that all that’s going on here? Is she only using the palanquin as a way to remind her subjects that she’s in power? Or… is there more?
A: I’m not sure there’s any more to it than exactly what you already said. It’s about perception. The appropriate thing for the Queen is to ride in a palanquin, and she plays it to the hilt. I suspect that part of her insistence on protocol, though, is to set the stage for the things she’s going to do that are… well, not according to protocol. But we’ll talk about those when they happen.
L: Stop crumpling my tinfoil, Alice! (Now that I’ve typed this, I really want this phrase to catch on.)
Sebarial laughed. “How much do you suppose I can pocket before Dalinar would find my thieving too blatant?”
“Stay under five percent,” Navani said.
L: I love this about Navani. She recognizes peoples’ flaws and converts them to strengths, uses them (within limits) instead of trying to force people to change. Case in point:
And if a tool seemed broken at first glance, perhaps you were simply applying it to the wrong task.
L: This is something that’s indicative of a very good leader. We see it in Dalinar, Adolin, and Kaladin, too.
A: It’s certainly one of Navani’s strengths. I’ve heard people complain that she’s manipulative, but I think it’s more that she gives people incentive to work with her for their mutual benefit. Here, Sebarial gets his “four and nine tenths” percent profit, while she gets efficient management and trustworthy oversight in the old warcamps. (It sure would be fun to find out in the next book that he and Palona got married out there while all the crazy was happening back here!)
Badali, a Stoneward, guarded the door. He was an affable older man with a powdery beard and smiling eyes. He bowed to her as she stepped through his newly made door.
L: Hey, another tuckerization! This one is of Paul Badali, one of the jewelry smiths over at Badali Jewelry! (If you’re looking for fantastic jewelry to show your love of Sanderson’s works, head over and check out their page. I’ve been wearing my Windrunner glyph necklace from them for years and I adore it.)
A: I was pretty excited to see Badali here. He and his people do such gorgeous work. I have some of their LOTR pieces as well as Cosmere, and I love every single piece. (And hey, one of the benefits of having a fantasy-loving teen daughter is buying her cool geeky jewelry… just sayin’…)
L: I’d also like to point out that my wedding rings are from Badali. <3
Brilliant Buttresses
Sebarial was staying behind to help administer the tower. And he offered his own set of difficulties. “So,” he said to Navani. “We taking bets on how long it takes Taravangian to knife us in the back?”
L: I adore him. This cracked me up.
A: He’s another one who plays games with perception, and I love watching. He’s so perceptive, and so many people think he’s a fool. Well, they used to; not so sure any more. But his sense of humor hasn’t changed, and he gets me every time!
We’ll be leaving further speculation and discussion to you in the comments, so have fun and remember to be respectful of the opinions of others! Next week, we’ll be back with chapter twenty-eight.
Alice is really excited for y’all to read the next book in the Skyward series in a few more months. It is, in her opinion, an excellent new adventure in the Skyward universe.
Lyndsey has been a Sanderson beta reader since Words of Radiance and is also a fantasy author herself. She’s been doing weekly tie-in videos to the reread and silly cosmere cosplay vids on TikTok, or you can follow her on Facebook or Instagram.
Perhaps Nale is there because Navani is being judged by The Sibling?
I agree with Alice. This is in no way “subsconscious.” Post-pruning Dalinar is very introspective. He knows exactly what he is doing.
Not to multiply your workload or anything, but so little happens in these early chapters that, for my personal taste, they should be going 2 or even 3 per week. Not a demand, not even a request, just a reaction.
Urithiru is one heck of a built environment. I tend to get bored and irked by our two books of time there, when I would rather be reading about the rest of Roshar’s geography, flora, and fauna. But it can be nice to learn new things about the place.
I noted that Navani assumes the mysterious correspondent is female. I don’t remember if she bases this assumption on anything other than the fact that among the Alethi, only women (and ardents and now Dalinar) can write.
Perfect description of an awkward hug. Most hugs are (or were, pre-COVID) like that for me, partly because most people are significantly taller than me. Though for me, the only hugs I find entirely comfortable are from my mother (who’s my height), and we hug each other constantly. We stopped for a few weeks after the Big Shutdown started, in case we had been infected before it, but couldn’t continue that way. We would both be much worse off, emotionally, if we still couldn’t hug. That said, a problem with our so-smooth relationship is that it hasn’t withstood much stress, so I don’t know for a fact that it can. I’ve just begun to feel differently from her about one politics-related matter, and I irrationally worry that if I voice this disagreement, our relationship will shatter like fine glass. I can’t relate to others peoples’ long struggles with their parents (though this doesn’t make them entirely unrelatable; see Kaladin), but occasionally feel a little envy of those who have gotten through a tolerable degree of such conflict and found that they could.
A common theme I see running with the older generation of this book is that parents aren’t perfect. They are capable of screwing up monumentally.
Lirin and Dalinar, we see the damage firsthand. I doubt Navani’s hands are clean, and I have a sneaking suspicion that it was Jasnah.
I love Navani’s chapters; she gives such a great glimpse into the day to day reality of life, as well as hints as to what the future might hold with her scholarship.
I love the awkward hug! I have experienced a few of those myself with my own wonderful mother after disagreements, and it is always amusing to see hints of “real life” in fantasy novels. I also love the way Jasnah talks about relationships; it’s very on-brand for her, and it is also so true. The older I get the more I realize that relationships require vast amounts of investment to maintain and grow, and I love seeing that reflected in novels. I agree with Carl that Dalinar knows what he is doing with Gav, and I agree with Alice that it is wonderful. As usual, I think Lyndsey is being a little tough on adult parents, but I understand the frustration. I personally love how Adolin is seeking his own path and realizing Dalinar’s blessing isn’t everything, and I don’t necessarily expect Dalinar to ever fully come to terms with that. I hope that Navani may help guide him to some level of acceptance, but I also think it’s ok to have hopes and dreams for your children that those children don’t fulfil. It is natural and doesn’t make you a bad parent.
Count me in as VERY interested in Jasnah’s flashback chapters. I will be interested to see if Gavilar and Navani were in agreement on handling Jasnah’s mysterious illness and how that changed the course of their relationship with her.
I wasn’t expecting Navani to have such a main role in this book, but I was pleasantly surprised. I love her character and growth throughout this book.
I also really like Sebarial and Palona. Sebarial’s humor is perfect for me. I do wonder if he actually placed any bets though.
I do think Dalinar is half-unconsciously attempting to compensate with Gavinor his strained relationship with Adolin. Later in the book, there are a few moments where Dalinar reflects on Adolin when playing with Gavinor. At this point in time, I do think Dalinar probably believes or finds his relationship with Renarin is good and positive for both of them while he is able to see his eldest slipping away from his grasp.
I tend to agree with Lyndsey. I too would wish for Dalinar to make stronger efforts at fixing the relationships he does have instead of adding a new one though I also agree Gavinor needs someone, now. I would also agree Dalinar does not need to fix his relationship with Adolin nor does he need to have a positive one with his son: not all family ties are positives nor healthy. Adolin could still choose to break away from his family to escape from the pressure and his implied lack of worthiness with regards to his inability to secure a Nahel Bond. He could decide to choose himself, to fight for himself, and to steer completely away from his over-bearing holier than thou father who’s never going to approve of him unless he does as being told. He could, but then his daddy issues will not get resolved and they will likely keep on tainting his other relationships, perhaps with his kids, one day.
So while not all needs to be fixed, I would prefer if Dalinar tried, again, with Adolin, but while actually focusing on listening to his son, for once, instead of focusing on what he wants. Dalinar tends to make all conversation be about him, he’s listening, but then again, he is not really listening. He is not listening to what Adolin is half-consciously telling him, he is not astute to his non-verbal behavior saying he has enough pressure and the reason he can’t progress is that Dalinar is the one making him feel inadequate. Hence, I do think to progress, as an individual, Adolin needs this closure with Dalinar, he needs to know Dalinar can acknowledge him as a person and agree with his choices even if not the ones he wanted him to make.
Adolin is the one who needs this. Dalinar only needs to make a relationship with a child work to start feeling better and believe he is redeemed. Sadly, if he does not deal with Adolin first, then he may reproduce the same unhealthy patterns with Gavinor (just like Adolin is likely to develop other unhealthy patterns with his own son, someday).
Still, I really did like the Dalinar and Gavinor scenes in this book. It was good to see Dalinar has it in him to be a decent father, now he has to learn how to listen.
As a side note, Navani, in my opinion, suffers from a lack of past characterization which is perhaps why her sudden shove into the main seat isn’t working well for me. Each time we get glimpses, I inwardly cringe. I would find her story more touching and impactful if we had had insights on her past life other than a one-liner from Gavilar. Sure, he wasn’t nice, he wasn’t considerate, but Navani basically erased herself on the wall and preferred doing other people’s jobs more than focusing on her own. Or on finding herself a worthy one. I do agree with Alice up there, a lot of what Navani does should not be her work, it should be someone else. Stuff like overseeing sanitation reports or micro-managing the kitchen: queens have stewards, employees, people whose task is to oversee those things.
As a reader, I needed a bigger, deeper more fleshed-out context to be able to sympathize with Navani.
Heh. I’ve been thinking a lot lately about the role of parents in these books, and how readily fans condemn them for their failures. (I’ll have an entire dissertation on Lirin ready for Chapter 43… or perhaps earlier, if it becomes relevant.) Thing is, every parent fails. We’re human. That’s life. We do the best we can, and then we try to deal with our failures as best we can. Sure, it’s easy to look at parents and point out all the ways we think they were wrong. It’s a lot harder to actually do the job well.
All these references to Jasnah flashbacks are just a tad frustrating for me … statistics indicate I’ll be dead or suffering dementia before they are written. (Figure 15 years until the back half starts. Jasnah is probably 6 years after that. I’m almost 60.)
@9 – I sometimes think about that. I think there’s at least 25 years left before the end of the Cosmere. That’s a looooong time. I’m fortunate enough to be younger than Brandon, so I can reasonably expect to see the end of it if age is the only concern.
Definitely a bit of a lull during these chapters. I love them for giving more depth to Navani’s character and setting up her role in what’s to come, but the pacing sometimes feels a bit sluggish when not staying up all night tearing through the book.
It’s interesting the first time through, though; on one hand, the Dalinar / Jasnah stuff feels like it’s going to be more of a focus for the rest of the book, especially with Taravangian around. At the same time, the focus on Navani viewpoints during these scenes runs a bit counter to that expectation. I really wish I remembered how I felt about it when I didn’t know what was coming next.
For the record, I find the Lirin hate completely disproportionate and my opinion is Kaladin shares at least half of the blame. I don’t begrudge Lirin for not behaving exactly like Kaladin (and many readers) would have wanted him to: he came with his own baggage and, in his eyes, he is doing much already. One of the reasons I am staying mostly quiet, in this re-read, is I did not like Kalaidn, as a person, in this book. Not at all. Oh, he has his entertaining moments, but as an individual, I spent half the book literally hating him. I however feel why I dislike him so much to be a controversial topic I feel is best not to discuss. Lirin however, I don’t hate him. I don’t love him, but I get where he comes from. As a parent, I even find him relatable.
I also don’t begrudge Dalinar, in this book, for trying to make it right with Adolin and failing at listening, at paying attention, and at finding the right words. I begrudged him in Oathbringer for not giving his sons any thought and for making his past issues be about him with him as the sole victim when the reality differs so much. In RoW, however, Dalinar seems to have moved his graze away from his navel and, as a result, I have appreciated his efforts even if non-conclusive.
I know for a fact being a parent is far harder than it looks and I have often felt younger people were very harsh with theirs. So no, I don’t judge those characters harshly for not having said nor done the right thing, but I will judge characters for not considering the existence of others. That, that’s what gets to me: a parent not thinking their children do not matter. I however saw none of that in RoW.
I guess it makes sense that Szeth went with Dalinar to protect him. But I had somehow thought he would remain behind and be very helpful to repeal the Fused attack
Navani’s expressions of affection in this chapter are ironic. When she was younger, she made fun of Evi for acting different than the archetypal Alethi Brightlady. One of Evi’s many things she did differently was show affection and wear her emotions on her sleeve. The current version of Navani is much more willing to show affection in public. I think the current Navani would have respected Evi. Perhaps, this is why Navani seems to be so accepting of Shallan (after Shallan comes back from the chasms in WoR). Of course, Adolin loves Shallan is certainly another reason that Nanavi has accepted Shallan so readily.
Thanks for reading my musings.
AndrewHB
aka the musespen
It just occurred to me: one implication of the epigraphs is that Sazed knows nothing about the Cosmere until Hoid starts explaining it.
This implies in turn that not one of the religions of Scadrial knew anything about those subjects. Apparently neither Ruin nor Preservation so much as mentioned Shards or Yolen to anyone for milennia, and neither did any other Shard that we suspect might have intervened there. For that matter, it implies that Hoid himself, who had visited Scadrial, never mentioned anything to anyone.
@11 Indeed. False/broken expectations is the worst possible thing. I was beyond disappointed with Dalinar’s tiny role in this book. That’s why I don’t want to partisipate in the reread and not even sure if I want to read Stormlight Archive anymore.
@15/dangeek I prefer to focus on the things that I enjoyed about the book, rather than giving up on the whole series because this book didn’t meet a certain expectation. I, for one, have been pining for more Jasnah since WoK – both her character and Elsecallers in general fascinate me – but I’m still waiting.
IMO, the payoff was worth it, and Navani’s internal and external conflicts were generally more interesting than following characters that were a bit more “status quo.” Brandon will never be able to satisfy everyone. I’m reasonably confident that he’s not going to just abandon established characters going forward, but the series is too big to focus on everyone. As long as it doesn’t fall into WoT’s PLOD, I’m content to wait and see.
@dangeek, I’m sort of with Gepeto, in that I am not a big fan of Kaladin since Words of Radiance. His story feels already-told, then told again. And again. In Rhythm his “inventing group therapy” plot is interesting. And then it stops with a thud and we go back to the same story we have already read at least twice. I do like the parallel to Adolin’s plot and the Cosmere-wide theme of locking various characters up in the dark[1], though.
All the books can’t focus on Dalinar. I like him, but I also like other characters, so I don’t complain if a book has less of a Dalinar focus.
[1]Kaladin himself after the disadvantaged duel, the traumatized veterans, the deadeye spren, the Lifeless on Nalthis, Jasnah during her mystery illness, Kelsier in the Pits, Vin captured by Yomen, TenSoon ….
I really like like Sebarial as a character and as an part of the team that knows how to keep society running. Every society needs a place where people can blow off steam. I love how he asks just how much he can “take off the top” before it would offend Dalinar as too much.
I can’t help but think that all grandparents must sometimes try to do better with the grandchildren. Little Gav will benefit from Dalinar’s earlier failures. His actual parents weren’t doing very well even before their tragic ends.
@17 Carl. Kaladin is a topic of discussion I have promised myself to stay away from out of respect for those who still like the character. As you put it, his story felt like it was told, then told again, and then again as if we haven’t gotten it the first time. There is very little novelty to his story nor his arc nor does the character seems to grow nor learn from his past mistakes, when his past mistakes are even acknowledged.
I didn’t mind the smaller focus on Dalinar. In fact, I really loved Dalinar in RoW. Not all books can focus on him though, in hindrance, I do wonder why RoW had to focus on… Kaladin. Again. Dalinar had a far greater role and a more interesting story attached to himself while Kaladin was just… a complete re-writing of his WoK arc with a touch of WoR. I would have rather spend more time with Shadesmar and with Dalinar than being forced to spend so much with Kaladin and then Navani. In this regard, I can understand why some readers were disappointed with Dalinar’s role.
I will argue this might be what some are reacting to. Dalinar had not a lot of page time while Kaladin… had way too much. There is an imbalance in this book. Why does Kaladin get to have his story told, again, for the third, fourth time, while more interesting Dalinar has only a very small arc squeezed at the end of the book? I can see why some readers would ask those questions.
I did not know Nazh was from Threnody! I’d want to stay off too!
I’m a parent of two difficult children – actually, one of my sons is VERY like Jasnah in temperment (precocious, analytical, neurodivergent and can appear cold to others because he has his own way of relating and expressing himself) and also very much resists being mothered, even at 8. We have found harmony in our relationship but it’s not a snuggly, sweet relationship like I have with my other son. It’s no less precious for that, but it’s been a challenge to navigate. As an aside, Jasnah is probably my favorite character, so I at least see a lot of myself in my son and appreciate those qualities in him :)
I also had a rocky teen relationship with my mother, and mistakes were made, and there are ways our personalities did not mesh, but obviously as an adult I see a lot of things clearly (and she did acknowledge her mistakes).
I have the same perception of Navani – she’s ‘manipulative’ in the sense that she can get people to do what she wants, but in a way that everybody feels good about it.
@comments – I do like Kaladin, but I also see how others might find his story repetitive. On one hand, it’s kind of true to the nature of depression, and so I appreciate that portrayal, but it’s not always pleasant to read. (I personally glaze over during any of the battle/lashing scenes.)
I do like Kaladin but like many others I find his arc rather repetitive across books. His chapters are analogous to the Perrin/Faile chapters in WOT for me. I like the characters and even their arcs as a whole but it’s a plod to get through them and drags on too long.
The narrative structure of the books so far really makes me lean towards Kaladin being Main Character/Honor’s Champion in the first arc, despite Dalinar seeming to be looking elsewhere for this at the end of Book 4. The size of his role is overwhelming in all the 4 books so far, even when the main character of books 2-4 has nominally been about other characters. Plus with him being the main character who is bound to an honorspren it just makes sense to me for a Windrunner to be Honor’s champion. However I also don’t see him as the ultimate/final hero of this story and thus the need for two arcs to Stormlight Archive. I think thinking of Honor as the “good” shard is going to be the downfall of Roshar in Arc 2 and that it’s going to be one of the other characters that rise up as the true hero. I’m rooting for Adolin at the moment! Especially after the ‘we chose” moment, there’s clearly something deeper going on with the whole Recreance and the role of the nahel bond in the potential destruction of the planet, and it must have something to do with how and why Ashyn was destroyed.