Welcome back to the Words of Radiance Reread on Tor.com! Last week, Shallan finally reached the warcamps, and we last saw her entering the conference chamber to meet Dalinar and Navani. This week, we take a little side-step to a time concurrent with those last few pages, looking through Adolin’s eyes within that chamber.
This reread will contain spoilers for The Way of Kings, Words of Radiance, and any other Cosmere book that becomes relevant to the discussion. The index for this reread can be found here, and more Stormlight Archive goodies are indexed here. Click on through to join the discussion.
Chapter 37: A Matter of Perspective
Point of View: Adolin
Setting: the Pinnacle’s conference chamber
Symbology: the Duelist, Nalan, Palah
IN WHICH a meeting accomplishes about what most work meetings do—which is to say, not much; Adolin has reluctantly agreed to stop wearing his Plate everywhere; worldwide news is rife with assassinations; Adolin fails to remember how he had offended yet another woman he’d once courted (and I snicker); he also fails to maneuver the current champion into a duel, and has to settle for his cousin; he is goaded almost beyond bearing by Relis and then Sadeas, but is prevented from doing something stupid by Amaram (of all people!); Amaram appears to be the perfect general, and presents his refusal to take Dalinar’s side as a step toward unity, and their differences as a matter of perspective; a gorgeous redhead is spotted, and Adolin is completely smitten.
Quote of the Week:
“I’ll have your throat in my hands, Sadeas,” Adolin hissed. “I’ll squeeze and squeeze, then I’ll sink my dagger into your gut and twist. A quick death is too good for you.
“Tsk,” Sadeas said, smiling. “Careful. It’s a full room. What if someone heard you threatening a highprince?”
The Alethi way. You could abandon an ally on the battlefield, and everyone could know it—but an offense in person, well, that just wouldn’t do. Society would frown on that. Nalan’s hand! His father was right about them all.
Adolin turned in a quick motion, reversing out of Sadeas’s grip. His next moves were by instinct, his fingers balling, stepping in preparation to plant a fist in that smiling, self-satisfied face.
Foreshadowing much? That’s not quite how it played out later, but pretty close. One hand instead of two, the eye instead of the gut, maybe just a touch too quick to the ending… But in both cases, Adolin bears injuries from a run-in with Szeth, and Sadeas (who was both times conveniently distant from said run-in) is being deliberately offensive regarding Dalinar, purposely trying to either provoke or disillusion Adolin. It’s foreshadowing so overt that no one actually recognized it as indicative until the end of the book. Sometimes the best way to be subtle is to be obvious, eh?
It’s interesting to note, though, that neither of them think of Adolin’s threat in terms of it being illegal—just that it’s not the done thing to get your own personal hands bloody. “Society would frown on that.”
Commentary: This chapter is mostly made up of Adolin’s fear and frustration. He’s understandably edgy about his complete inability to actually do anything about an assassin who can bend the laws of nature. To compound that, he’s just spent two hours listening to a bunch of highprinces and their wives yammering futilely about “doing something!” As if they could do anything, even if they managed to agree on a plan.
He has finally removed his Plate (must have been getting pretty ripe in there!) and now wears a normal uniform. Even so, the conference room and nearby strategic locations contain nearly every Alethi Shardbearer in the warcamps. These people are justifiably jumpy, so they do essentially the same thing Adolin was doing, even though the Rosharan News Network makes it clear that no one has been able to stand against The Assassin, no matter how many Shards they had at hand.
It’s rather a relief, then, to see Adolin turning his mind to something he can do: he can proceed with the plan they had in place to acquire all the Alethi Shards. Unfortunately, even the wager of five shards against two isn’t enough to tempt Relis, the current dueling champion, into a bout. Whether it’s really because “it’s all about playing the game right” or merely because he knows there’s a good chance he’d lose, you decide; either way, Relis isn’t biting. (Yet.) Elit, on the other hand, can’t resist the bait—at least in part because Adolin’s ploy with the Eranniv duel did convince some folks to underestimate him.
And… this is where this chapter makes me grind my teeth. This is where it spirals down into the sneering and goading and baiting, and I loathe that kind of thing. The more so, I suppose, because I like Adolin, and (as we were just discussing on last week’s thread) while he’s quite intelligent, he’s better at a quick comeback with a Blade than with his tongue. He’s shown his cleverness in coming up with plans and schemes to assist his father, and he’s acknowledged as a good military leader as well as a cunning duelist. But when someone gets under his skin, he just doesn’t have the snarky comeback, and (since I can relate!) it makes me mad when that’s used against him.
The Sadeas shows up. Torol Weasel Ratfink Cremling Sadeas. At the best of times, he makes me irritable. At times like this, he makes me want to climb right into the book and beat him with something large and heavy. (Adolin’s fist would do nicely.) Ironically, it’s that other misbegotten wretch Amaram who steps in and keeps Adolin from doing something he’d regret. Which… is pretty much the only thing he does here that is in any way positive. He blithers on about how he can bridge the gap between Sadeas and Dalinar by the ways in which each agrees with him, mostly proving that he’s a complete eel.
“Sadeas and I agree that the means we choose to reach an honorable goal are allowed to be distasteful. Your father and I agree on what that goal should be—a better Alethkar, a place without all of this squabbling. It is a matter of perspective…”
Yeah, but don’t talk about what purpose that “united Alethkar” should serve in the grand scheme, because guess what? The fact that you share an intermediate goal doesn’t exactly make you a trustworthy ally. Dude. I see right through you, you sleaze.
And then we can ignore Amaram, because Gorgeous Red Hair enters the room, and Adolin is Distracted from all the politics surrounding him. Yay! Big sparkly Yay! I have to note another touch of foreshadowing: Adolin’s first reaction is to see, and like, the ways Shallan is different from all the other women he knows: coloring, figure, movement, all are different, and he finds that most intriguing. This will continue and expand throughout their times together, because no matter how hard she tries, the minute Shallan relaxes, she forgets to conform. I love it.
All it takes is for Amaram to recognize that the red hair probably indicates Veden heritage; Adolin puts two and two together and shoves his way—politely—to her side. Oh, the ship, the lovely ship.
Stormwatch: Yup, it’s still that same day. Same minutes as the previous chapter, even; just a matter of perspective.
All Creatures Shelled and Feathered: I’m seriously tempted to mention Relis, Sadeas, and Amaram in this unit. Oh, look, I just did! Cremlings.
Ars Arcanum: There’s really nothing to talk about here, except to note the probability that Adolin is seeing a Lightwoven version of Shallan here. One with clean hair, lots of poise & confidence, that stuff. Aside from the appearance of having bathed recently, though, I suspect he’s seeing the real Shallan, physically. She mostly changed her self-perception.
Ars Mechanica: Just one question: what kind of spren is used for a fabrial clock? Inquiring minds want to know.
Heraldic Symbolism: Nalan: Judge; Just/Confident; Vapor; Exhalation. Not quite sure why any of those are relevant here, other than Adolin’s reaction to the slimy, snide, rude, and totally inappropriate comments about his father. That punch was totally called for, so say I. Palah: Scholar; Learned/Giving; Lucentia; Eyes. Something to do with Truthwatchers? Yeesh. I got nuthin’ here, folks.
Words of Radiants: This week’s epigraph concerns the Stonewards and their relationship to Taln. Apparently, the Radiants in general were either assumed or observed to have characteristics which matched their patron Heralds. I find it a little sad to read that “they thought it a point of virtue to exemplify resolve, strength, and dependability.” Sad, partly because the writer’s tone makes it sound like he/she finds it less of a virtue than the Stonewards did, and partly because despite the implied sneer, it was Taln’s “resolve, strength, and dependability” that has singlehandedly held off the next desolation for 4500 years. Four and a half millennia of resolve, strength, and dependability is not to be scoffed at, I think. On the other hand, I admit that it can be annoying to be around people who are proud of being too stubborn to admit they’re wrong. The thing is, we see “stubborn” as annoying but “tenacious” as admirable—and they’re exactly the same characteristic. It’s all a matter of perspective.
Shipping Wars: Shallan-Adolin, Shalladolin, Adollan, whatever you want to call the ship—It. Has. Launched.
Just Sayin’: “Nalan’s hand!” and “Ash’s eyes!” I don’t see, in either case, that the subject at hand is particularly relevant to the Herald mentioned, so I assume they’re just general exclamations. There’s probably one for each Herald, or something. Although I’m amused by the timing of “Ash’s eyes!” in referring to Adolin’s reaction to a proto-Radiant of Shalash’s Order. Fun little twist.
There. That ought to keep us busy until next week, when we get back into Shallan’s perspective for the remainder of the meeting.
Alice Arneson is a long-time Tor.com commenter and Sanderson beta-reader. Now that JordanCon is over, she would like to remind one and all that Team Sanderson intends to be present in force at Sasquan (WorldCon) this summer. Y’all should come, and look for Wetlander at the registration tables, because she’d love to meet you in person.
“Society would frown on that.” Reminds me of the Regency era romances that I read: A married woman may carry on with affairs, but a unmarried woman cannot be with a gentleman without a chaperone, as the society considers that improper. *rolling my eyes*
I completely missed the foreshadowing and Adolin’s threat here… but I was too focused on Dalinar’s plan and Adolin’s challeges.
Great post, as usual!
One of the other herald curses or expressions is Kalak’s breath. Can’t recall any others, but I think they are out there.
My fabrial clock uses three snoozespren and a latespren.
I would think that killing a highprince is far more than a gauche act in Alethi society. When Adolin does the deed he mutters, “did I just murder a highprince?”. Note, not “kill” but “murder”, with the implication of having committed a punishable act.
I find it ironic that the expression is Ash’s eyes. Ash is the Herald who goes around disfiguring statuues of herself.
Alice, does your dislike of Amaram at this point in the series stem from the fact that we the reader knows Amaram betrayed Kadalin and the other Darkeyed soldiers under Amaram’s command? Had the readers only known what happened to Kaladin but not the Brightlord who sold Kaladin into slavery would you still dislike Amaram’s character at this point?
Thanks for reading my musings.
AndrewB
(aka the musespren)
While Alice is smashing the bow of the ship with champagne, I would like to congratulate her! Carl was great, and I’m happy for him…and happy for Alice and happy for us!
Your own ship has launched, Alice! Thank you!
@3 LOL!
And great post as usual, Alice.
I dont know if it is significant but all the talk of perspective reminds me of Kaladin’s conversation with Syl, when he is trying to figure out if Szeth has a spren and asking what would happen is Nahel bond spren have different perspectives. Gives me a little shiver to think about what that could forshadow…. and ive learned not to ignore Brandons habit of makeing chapter titles have more than one meaning.
About that epigraph:
Resolve is mentioned therein as being one of the traits exemplified by Taln and the Stonewards. Interesting, because it is Kalak’s primary divine attribute. The part about dependable (in the epigraph) is consistent with Taln. Fitting strength to Taln isn’t difficult either. I can’t imagine a continuity error like that creeping into the book since there were a plethora of sharp-eyed beta readers. So, perhaps I’m over-thinking the epigraph.
As to Heraldic Symbolism, I’ve got zero also. I’m getting a déjà vu blast wrt. ChocolateRob’s comment last week about BWS giggling maniacally at us trying to find significance in which heralds appear.
And fabrial clocks: I was thinking maybe we haven’t encountered timespren yet, but Zodda @3 must have the right of it.
I’d pretty much forgotten about this chapter. I think that is probably due to the fact that it is pretty much the same scene as the previous one. Just with a POV switch (which is really kind of cool). Alice, I think you hit all the same points that stood out to me, but you articulated them much better than I ever could.
I think my favorite aspect of this chapter is Adolin’s complete focus on Shallan once he figures out who she is. Dad’s rival just threatened you? Said rival’s best buddy comes up with poor justification for it? Who cares! The woman who would be my wife is here, and THAT is important.
I actually like this aspect of Adolin. There are times when he reminds me of many of the “gentlemen” I shared a lockerroom with as a nerd hiding out in an athelte’s body. Then he does this and you realize, nope, he’s a decent, if not misguided, guy.
/@@@@@ 10 jtao68: “Then he does this and you realize, nope, he’s a decent, if not misguided, guy.” Who? Andolin? Or Amaram?
I love chapter 35 and 37 mostly because they give us better insight of Adolin, showing us his inner vulnerability. Put the boy on the battlefield surrounded by foes and he’ll prevail, but verbally attack his father and he loses it.
For most of book 1 and 2, we see Adolin through Dalinar and Kaladin eyes whom depict a rather inacurate portrait of him. Whereas Dalinar sees his son as a good boy with indeniable qualities, he also sees him as a hothead needing to be tempered down. Kaladin, on his side, sees Adolin as a rich, arrogant, spoiled child not deserving half of the merit he receives.
Unfortunately, I have found most readers chose to endorse those lenses to see Adolin which is why chapters such as 35 and 37 are pure gold.
On the side note, am I the only one who notices the emphasis Brandon has put on both Shallan and Adolin’s hair coloring? Adolin reflects, back in WoK, how peculiar it was light was desirable in terms of eye color, but dark was prefered for hair and wondered what was wrong with blond. He also mentions how he likes the fact Danlan did not dye hers. Upon seeing Shallan for the first time, Adolin first notices her red hair and his furthermore enthralled by her when the first thing she says to him is “I like your hair.”. Shallan, on her side, mentions how he father talked badly about her hair color…
So is there something to the hair color? Is this foreshadowing of a future relationship, the fact they both have odd hair color in common?
Yup, on a reread Adolin’s threat here takes on a completely different cast, it’s pretty great.
Besides that it was a neat, if somewhat transitional, chapter. Looking forward to Shallan’s big moment coming up.
There’s another blatant tidbit here about something to do with jasnah’s past here:
“Jasnah’s unwed too. She’s a decade older than me.” (Adolin)
“Your cousin is hardly a role model in that regard.” His tone implied more. Or any regard. (Amaram.)
Add to this the simmering animosity we saw when jasnah ran into amaram in the prologue, and it is clear to me that Brandon is leading up to something interesting about their past inte:ractions. It may be personal in any number of interesting ways, or it may be that amaram simply despises a heretic and has a reputation to maintain that would not allow him to consort with one. It may be that in her secret dealings to protect her family jasnah found the dirt on him and knows what kind of sleaze he really is, or it may have something to do with these varying allegiances to secret organizations. They both seem to be at odds with the ghostbloods, altough for different reasons.
I think Palah is there because of her shared dominion over perception with Shalash, and because so much in this chapter revolves around perception and sight. Adolin and Shallan first meet, all the Alethi politics, and even the terror of the Assassin’s return.
So, what’s Gaz doing outside with Kaladin?
@11. Adolin. Unless Mr. Sanderson pulls an amazing reveal, I doubt I will EVER say that about Amaram.
@12. I feel as though The Alethi are presented as a fairly shallow people when it comes to superficial things like eye color and hair color, though they pay no heed to skin color. I wonder if this isn’t a comentary on such things.
Although, once someone gains a shard, their eyes change to a lighter color, so maybe this is an old tradition that follows more closely to the reverence once paid the Knights Radiant? Or possibly, it was the powerful who gained the abandoned shards in the first place, and so the importance on eye color began there? I feel as though this may have already been discussed in a previous thread, sorry if I am rehashing old things.
Alice you’re right, whatever else you can say about Adolin he tries to be a man of his word–other than confusing the whole eye/gut think. He even remembered the “twisting” part (yay?)
I just wish that Sadeas had been the one to initiate physical confrontation and that there had been witnesses who could have said as much, then we wouldn’t have to worry about Adolin going forward as much–either legally or personally through his conscience.
Amaram probably feels scorned by Jasnah since the prologue indicated that Gavilar fancied the idea of setting the two of them up. Glad that didn’t work out. She’s too good for him by far; although they do share a certain ruthless streak. I would say without the least shred of hesitancy that Jasnah is the more moral of the two.
I’m not really on board with killing a would-be assailant who is fleeing—even a murdering rapist—killing they while they’re attacking is one thing but when they are trying to escape? That being said, capturing them, bringing them to trial and then hanging them is definitely ok in my book. Regardless, what Jasnah did is still less evil than killing your own soldiers in a tent just because you want something and they might not like it. That’s an act of an unrepentant monster.
I don’t know about Shallon’s appearance not being changed. When Sebarial takes her home in his carnage he remarks that he thought she looked older when they were in the meeting.
@17 technically speaking they do pay heed to skin color. Alethi tan is seen as the ideal in at least Alethkar and Jah Keved, Shallan remarks on it multiple times.
@3: Funny, mine too!
Along with some delay fish (spren) known as my children.
@18: Twisting the knife… I’ve never been trained in knife fighting, but I’m thinking twisting the knife might be a standard practice.
It would maximize the damage done.
Can anyone comment on that? Anyone have knife figting training?
Other news, as mentioned in the last post:
This week I made a facebook group page for Sanderson’s fans. Come check us out if you wish. https://www.facebook.com/groups/1393251621001084/
@@@@@ Braid_Tug
Why is everyone trying to tempt me to get on Facebook? I have enough time sucks in my life already.
I don’t know much about knife fighting (thank God), but based on what a prison guard I know told me, it is surprisingly hard to kill someone by stabbing them.
I’m sure twisting the knife massively increases the damage to soft tissue and worsens bleeding, but I doubt it’s actually all that easy while your opponent is still fighting back. I do know from personal experience that the mind and body don’t even notice silly little distractions like pain, broken bones, or structurally superfluous new holes while the fight or flight response is kicked in.
Now I’m going to go think about nice like puppies. Puppies don’t stab people.
@20. While “ideal,” or even “attractive” are definitely ways of isolating someone based on appearance, no really judges a person’s socio-political significance on it the way they do eye color. And even the comments about being tanned are less significant than the lengthy descriptions of hair. I guess my point is, it is the more superficial things in our culture that carry greater weight in Alethi culture, and the things that we tend to use as dividers seem less important on Roshar.
I’ve never actually stabbed someone, but I have received training from a former Ranger who has, and he informed us that a blade will inevitably become entangled within the viscera. “Twisting” is probably a bit superfluous, but in a moment of rage, probably feels good to the person doing the twisting. And as a shardbearer, who rarely feels the tug of tissue when he cuts through an opponent, It probably feels quite cathartic to twist the knife.
@23: I agree about the skin color: there are hardly any mention of it within both books and each time there is, it is not significant. Adolin’s hair color however, comes back regularly having many people comment on them. Brandon described at length Adolin’s hair color and style, but he never mentioned his skin color tone which, as far as I am concerned, could range from white to slightly tanned.
Cathartic, that is quite the word. Makes you wonder how he’ll deal with the thing… Has Adolin ever killed anything using regular weapons? Probably not.
@14 In the prolouge, Brandon also said that Gavilar was pushing a union between Jasnah and Amaram (or at least hoping for one). Shallan also notes at one point bitterness between Jasnah and the opposite gender and wonders what happened to her to make her so bitter. Perhaps it was something Amaram did? Shallan also notes that Jasnah must care about what men think of her or else she wouldn’t take the time to do her hair and make-up (that’s in the first couple of chapters somewhere). I wonder what actually happened to Jasnah.
Okay, this is really sad. Two days later, and I’m having to go to “latest comments” to find my own post, because I haven’t actually commented on it yet. Blargh. (Spring gets busy? Blame it on the kids.) So now I’ll play catch-up with a leisurely Saturday
trollstroll through the list.Purnima @1 – I’d never noticed this foreshadowing before either. Recent discussions caused me to reread the later scene, and a focused reading of this chapter made it really jump out at me!
IamwhatIamaram @2 – Aha! It’s your fault! :D I went on an extensive fishing expedition looking for similar expressions. I haven’t even made it all the way through WoR yet, much lest TWoK, but so far I’ve also found “Ishar’s soul,” “Talat’s hand,” and “Kelek’s name.” Loosely related, I also came across “the Almighty’s tenth name” and (wut??) “Damnation’s eleventh name.” I’ll report back if I find any others.
Zodda @3 – ::gigglesnort:: Mine too! Defective things anyway.
STBLST @@.-@ – Well, technically, when Adolin said “society would frown” he was referring to any “offense in person” – which could be anything from this threat to a physical attack. FWIW, if he’d carried out said attack (even just by throwing that punch) in this place and time, he a) would have been stopped long before he killed the man and b) would have been frowned on by everyone including his family. It would also have made it easier for everyone else to turn down his offers of duels.
AndrewHB @5 – “Had the readers only known what happened to Kaladin but not the Brightlord who sold Kaladin into slavery would you still dislike Amaram’s character at this point?” I’m sure that if all we’d known was the facade Amaram presents to the world, I’d think he was a hopeful sign that the Alethi could be turned around. I might even, based on this chapter, hope that he would be able to create a reconciliation between Sadeas and Dalinar. I hope, but I don’t know, that his line about “the means we choose to reach an honorable goal are allowed to be distasteful” would have made me worried, though. Given the backdrop of the rest of the book, that line might send up alarm flags and make me question the character.
That might be hypocritical. I’ve never seriously questioned whether Jasnah is “good,” even though her means were questionable, but I suspect that I would be ready to question anyone in whom I’m less invested, even on flimsier ground. So I don’t know for sure how I’d react to Amaram if I knew nothing of Kaladin’s past interactions with him. It’s an interesting theoretical question, which I’ll never be able to answer with certainty.
Tektonica @6 – Thank you, my friend! It launches with a bit of trepidation, but it launches indeed. :) Glad you’re on it with me.
Spren-diferous @8 – Yeah, those chapter titles are deep sometimes. I had lost the habit of paying attention to things like that… but I’m definitely relearning! I’ve toyed with trying to discuss the meaning of the chapter title every week, but I’m afraid I’d show my ignorance too often by the implications I’d miss. :)
Ways @9 – I take some consolation in knowing that Brandon is up to his ears in revising Calamity right now, and probably isn’t taking the time to laugh at us. Peter, on the other hand…
jta068 @10 – “I think my favorite aspect of this chapter is Adolin’s complete focus on Shallan once he figures out who she is.” Oh, me too! The last few lines of the chapter are absolutely priceless. I think that’s part of why I’m so invested in the Shallan-Adolin ship – I loved Adolin’s reaction both to her, and to the realization that she might be his betrothed. These lines right here solidified my love for this ship.
And I’m gonna break this in two, because it got long.
I seem to be doing a lot of nodding today…
Gepeto @@@@@ 12 – Yes. I didn’t have much opinion of Adolin either way in the first book; nice kid, might turn out to be something. Generally hopeful, because he’s Dalinar’s son, but… whatever. His initial interactions with Kaladin in WoR were making me irritated with him (though Brandon mitigated that somewhat by giving him the “there’s something off about this guy” sense from Kaladin’s spren bond), but his attitude toward Shallan more than overcame that irritation. And his attitude toward Kaladin changes completely by the end of the book, so now, I love my Adolin.
@@@@@many re: Jasnah & Amaram – I, too, wonder what that backstory might be. On first read, I assumed that Jasnah was not interested in him and turned the suggestion down flat. On second, third, fourth or fifth read… I don’t know. Clearly there’s animosity, but who rejected whom? Or was it mutual, due to some other clash about which her father knows nothing? And, as always, what happened to Jasnah? Probably some kind of assault – maybe the thing that broke her enough to accept a spren bond – but we just don’t know for sure. And if so, who? Why? When? Gahhhh! I’m betting we don’t find out until Jasnah’s flashback sequence. Maybe that will be in book three? I can hope…
Bellaberry @@@@@19 – True; there was clearly some physical change. The differences must have been pretty subtle, though. Mostly, I was thinking in terms of “he’s not falling for some idealized version of her that will turn out to not be true.” Just more confident, maybe more mature – which is probably not something that Adolin would notice as different, at least not to the extent Sebarial might. That’s my story, and I’m sticking to it!
@27: It is fascinating to see how different people react to the same character. For my part, I was more irritated at Kaladin’s attitude than Adolin’s in WoR. Adolin had valid reasons to mistrust Kaladin: a slave with a slash brand managing the impossible feat of saving an entire army? And his father does as far as giving him all his trust? Nobody else is suspicious? They do not even know the man… For me, Adolin’s reaction to Kaladin made complete sense. Kaladin however… The second he sees Adolin, he dislikes him, without any other reasons than him being highborn. He is purposetely aggravating with Adolin simply out of jealousy. He calls him out for being rich, but is all forgiving for Renarin being just the same.
As for his interactions with Shallan, I am with you: he is adorable. It is also adorable to see how he completely changes his attitude towards Kaladin after he saves Renarin. Not a word about Kaladin saving him as if his own life did not matter next to those of his family.
Gepeto @28 – I didn’t write that as well as I should have, now that I look back… In fact, I didn’t say what I meant at all! I was irritated with Adolin for a lot of reasons in the first part of the book; Brandon mitigated one aspect by giving Adolin a reason for being suspicious. What really got on my nerves, even so, was the condescending attitude. “Bridgeboy” just annoyed me no end!
Now I’m changing my mind again, because something just registered: Most of that arrogance, IIRC, comes across in Kaladin’s POV, so naturally it reflects his assumption that Adolin is a spoiled rich kid who treats everyone else like dirt. Hmm. I’ll have to chew on this some more!
Adolin sees his lady friend as purdy all the time? HA!
As far as Jasnah and Amaram go? Jasnah seems like a naturally driven person, and I’m guessing Amaram is a bit of a narcissist given the effort he has gone to cultivate and maintain his “sterling” reputation.
Either he didn’t appreciate the fact that Jasnah didn’t fawn over him because she’s her own person, or else she did pay attention to him and figured out what a
Grade A jackass he really is. No wait that’s not being fair to donkeys. Cremling? Eh, that one’s been used for Sadeas already. Pond-scum? No, algae can’t help what it is… Hmm, I’m going to have to think about this one.At any rate, Shallan also thought something must have happened to Jasnah at some point in her past right after their would be mugging.
If Amaram was involved in whatever trauma she experienced in her past, I would absolutely love to see Jasnah be the one to give him his eventual comeuppance. Ivory seems to be a bit more lax about that sort of thing than Syl does after all.
Hmm, didn’t Navani say that Jasnah was mature even while she was a kid? I definitely think there is something more to Amaram and Jasnah, I would love it if he is a bit frightened of her intellect. But don’t think she was hurt like Kaladin and Shallan were… Like extended, long term hurts.
The way I think of her, it would be a onetime incident that shook her out of her scientific nature, suppressing her questing instincts long enough for her to bond with a Ivory and
channellsoulcast.I wonder if maybe it has to do with Jasnah putting pressure on herself?
Although we know that the Nahel bond settles into “cracks” within a person, I don’t think that really necessarily entails there needing to be one serious bad moment – in both Kaladin and Shallan’s cases, they seemed open to the bond at a younger age than when they had their serious moments (definitely with Shallan – we know she had progressed in her bond with Pattern before, well, Red Carpet Once White and all that. It’s also suggested with Kaladin and Syl, what with when he first picked up a weapon and when Kaladin asked Syl how long she had been with him).
While I wouldn’t be surprised if Jasnah had a bad incident at some point, I think what probably gave Jasnah access to the bond was the difficulties with living as smart as she was. Like in the prologue when Gavilar rebukes her, asking her if it was lonely to be so brilliant – Jasnah blushes because her father called her out, but I wouldn’t be surprised if that was also a big hint about why she was open to the Nahel bond (along with what Navani reveals later).
@adolin reacting to Shallan: Personally, first time I read this I didn’t like it – mutual attraction at first sight just hit my irritating trope button. It’s later on in the book when it transitions into adorable for me. It does speak potentially well for how Adolin first reacts though: sure Shallan is making herself maybe a bit idealized (projecting maturity, cleared out road weariness, etc.), but he is in essence then reacting to her in her realized Lightweaver state. Which is a much better reaction than he has to Kaladin’s Radiant nature when he still doesn’t recognize either.
I found kaladin’s view of adolin ( and shallan too) to be just so delightfully in character, it all it’s irritating glory. Kaladin is broody and predjudiced and bitter and paranoid and he would drive me nuts to be around. And I love him for it.
Adolin views kaladin in a way that makes sense with his position and personality, but the “bridgeboy” makes me upset. They don’t know, not like we do, how awful the bridge crews were, but they do have some idea.
Re:jasnah. I really want to know more. I don’t think Brandon drops tidbits like that for no reason. I do also think she is more moral than amaram, but I can also see how I am biased to accept her actions, as a reader invested in jasnah’s character while conveniently being given no information about the men (probably dark eyed and dealt a crappy hand by light eye rule) she killed. That whole passage tied me in knots about morality. Really made me tthink. So yes, I too wonder about her past. Many have speculated some trauma with men, and that could make sense but I also wonder if that is too obvious. There are many, many ways a character as uniquely and richly imagined as jasnah kholin could have a faaaascinating back story.
@29: We do see Adolin mostly from Kaladin and Dalinar’s highly biased eyes.
I have always been troubled at having most readers endorsed Kaladin very prejudiced vision of both Adolin and Renarin. When Kaladin first sees Adolin, he notices he wears nice expensive boots and his buttons are shinning: therefore he has to be a spoiled child. He also notice Renarin has delicate hands that never saw work and wears less flashy clothing. Overal, since Renarin is more low key, he cannot be spoiled or so is how Kaladin thinks… but if we look at things from another perspective: Adolin is the one working hard all day whereas what does Renarin do? We are not exactly sure…
It is very peculiar for me Kaladin would endorsed Renarin this easily. Kaladin is a hard worker, shouldn’t he be bothered at seeing yet another rich kid not even endorsing any responsabilities to account for his priviledges? And yet no. It is Adolin he hates… Strange as in the world of lighteyes, Adolin is far from being spoiled: not being allowed to drink, not being allowed to wear fashionable clothing, not being allowed to leisure around, not being able to duel which is his passion, always having to fill in some duties.
I think it is a very interesting exercise to try to see both Adolin and Renarin from eyes other than Kaladin or even Dalinar… One of the reasons many readers think Adolin woud become a Dustbringer has to come from Dalinar’s own vision of his son where he calls him impulsive and hotheaded, which he is not really. As for Renarin, we tend to see him as the outcast boy Kaladin takes under his wing, but he is living in the same luxuries as Adolin, worst, he is not asked to work for them, unlike his older brother.
All in all, it is fascinating. I must say though the “bridgeboy” did not annoy me so much as the “arrogant rich spoiled princeling” and the “if you want me to fetch you a cup of tea, then ask someone else” when Adolin had done nothing reprehensive. Or perhaps the “not unobnoxious” part when Adolin was simply trying to be friendly… In light of this, Adolin’s “bridgeboy”, seems rather mild.
I think Jasnah had some nasty experiences that “broke” her and gave her trouble with romantic relationships in general, but I doubt Amaram specifically had anything to do with that. He hides his evilness too carefully for that.
Rather, I guess that Jasnah’s lack of interest in Amaram specifically is probably over religious differences. In the prologue, Jasnah has just made her atheism public; and Amaram’s public facade is quite pious (hiding a true personality that is perhaps even more pious, in a fanatical way). Seems like a reason she could write off the relationship as something that “would never happen.”
@34 Gepeto: “All in all, it is fascinating. I must say though the “bridgeboy” did not annoy me so much as the “arrogant rich spoiled princeling” Oh, yes, I agree! Each time Kaladin talks about the lighteyes, he shows his prejudice. Meanwhile, we do not see Adolin raging on about any darkeyes. (Being suspicious of Kaladin does not count).
I am amused to see people struggle to find an insult fit for Sadeas. I can only use theoretical figures (I like the one with aleph-omega proposed a few weeks ago).
@36 Purnima
Kaladin’s judgement of Adolin is too harsh, but there is some truth in it as well–Adolin really is an arrogant rich spoiled princeling (in as much as he is a product of the society he was raised in. But he is growing beyond it by virtue of his father’s influence and his own growing maturity.
Calling Kaladin “Bridgeboy” on the other hand is far worse. Think about it. First (and least) he’s calling a man just a couple of years younger than him “boy” despite the fact that he has the respect of numerous men, has saved the lives of hundreds of people, and obviously has some education. (Kaladin does the same thing towards him so they’re both guilty on that front).
That’s immature, but forgivable. Far worse is that “bridgeboy” in that environment is the closest he could get to saying Kaladin is sub-human (and to making light of the deaths of thousands upon thousands of slaves).
That’s not just teasing. That’s the kind of insult that can and will end up making someone hate you. Really truly hate you (not a good way to treat anyone let alone your family’s bodyguard). And Adolin of all people should know how deeply words can cut.
Bottom line: they’re both acting wrongly and being rude to one another. I’m just glad they start to figure that out before this book is over otherwise I’d demand to see Dalinar bash their heads together and make them be friends. Bondsmiths can do that sort of thing right?
@38: wcarter
I don’t think Adolin is taking that PoV when he calls Kaladin “bridgeboy.” We the reader knows how horrible it was to be on a bridge crew. Dalainar’s PoV shows how he thought the crews were a waste of human life and felt Sadeas should do things differently. But neither Adolin or Dalainar spent any time in that part of camp. They had no way of knowing how much like sub-humans Sadeas treated the crews.
Adolin might feel it was like having the worst assignment possible in the army, but has no way to truly understand the derogation of the job. So I do not believe he realizes how it could be taken.
Much like I understand in the abstract how horrible some people’s lives are: modern slaves, draftees into a dictator’s army, the street people of India, etc. However, I have no true understanding of their lives or their conditions. So I could easily be guilty of calling them a nickname that I might find annoying to be called, but they could find it a deep offences. Yet they would never tell me how offensives it is because of our cultural divide.
Adolin’s coming from a place of high privilege, in a culture that does not encourage people to be compassionate and aware of how the different privileges. They just accept them.
In a way we should be horrified more of the culture BWS created than offended when one of its representatives calls our lower class hero a “bridgeboy.”
Because now that I’m thinking of it in this way, it is very reminiscent of the American culture pre-Civil War.
Remember, it was the North that created segregation – “Live free, but not in my town or in the house next to mine.”
@38: I guess the discussion as to whom is more spoiled than whom is thightly linked to our own perceptions of their respective situations.
Of course, if we compare Adolin to Kaladin, he is unbelievably spoiled, but they are evolving in completely different spheres of the society. In my assessment of Adolin, I tend to compare him to other high ranked lighteyes and compared to them, he is neither spoiled nor arrogant. Mouthy, yes, but arrogant? He does sound over-confident at times, which some people associate with arrogance, but I have always read these passages as Adolin pushing forward his public persona in order to better hide his insecure inside one. Other young lighteyes we have met are unbelievably more arrogant than Adolin. As for spoiled, if Adolin is spoiled, than so is Renarin and yet nobody ever calls him spoiled… Spoiled is acting as you are entitled to everything. Adolin never does it, but Renarin does, when he asks for a Plate just so he could try at being a soldier… Just some thoughts here on the spoiled part.
The interesting thing also is to compare Kaladin to other darkeyes and the result is rather enlightening. Kaladin, as a boy, lived a priviledged life amongst his peers (prior to Roshone’s arrival), to the point where they resented him not having to work all day, being able to leisure all afternoon long (a large part of his family misforturne was caused by jealousy for their higher status). True, he had to study all evening long, but but BUT he still had more free times than most who had to work the field all day long and probably go to bed early to rise up even earlier. And he was playmate with the one lighteyed girl… Now, in there own little world, Kaladin was the spoiled one. As for arrogant, Kaladin is arrogant, most of the time, and from his inner dialogue we gathered he is not using it to hide anything. Kaladin is good at what he does, he knows it, worst, he often thinks he knows better than most, which is why he struggles so much with authority.
I have never read the term “bridgeboy” as deemening. As for the “boy” part, well they both call each others “boy” at some point. Dalinar, General Khal, Navani all still call Adolin “boy”, “lad, “child”, “youth” and he is not that much older than Kaladin. As for the bridge part, I guess it can be seen as mean, except I do not believe one second Adolin does it with this intend in head. I do not think Adolin comprehends what Kaladin has been through, if he did, he’d use another word as Adolin never uses words as a weapon. Not his style.
Besides, even when he tries to befriend Kaladin, he still uses the nickname, which strengthen my personal belief he just does not get it. Also, at one point, Adolin asked Kaladin about his sense of humor and Kaladin answer he trade-it a long time ago against scars… not at all the kind of answer Adolin was expected. He just does not realize, but Kaladin knows perfectly well what he is doing and saying. He purposetely used words against Adolin knowing full well he will not get the pun, which is why I am harder with him then Adolin.
Minor quibble – I don’t recall that Renarin ever asked for Plate. He did ask to be treated as one of the bridgemen, though, so he could learn how to be a soldier.
@41: He asked for the chance to be a soldier back in WoK, which was only possible if he had a Plate. He would not accept any other possible path (surely there were others things he could have done then soldier and Ardent). Dalinar doted a pricely and prized Plate on his untrained son simply out of love. I cannot blame him the sentient, but after the 4 on 1 duel, Renarin gave up his training completely and yet he retained his Plate.
How is it the Kohlin household allowed valuable shards to be wasted on Renarin simply because he could not move past his childhood dream of becoming a warrior? Alright, they let him try because they love him, but when it got clear he could not do it, why let him keep them? And what to say of Renarin? Shouldn’t he have the thought to give them to someone else? Someone able to make a difference? They nearly lost…. if they had had another Shardbearer, Teleb may have survived… but no Renarin had to keep on holding on to his boyhood hopes. If this is not spoiled, then I dunno what spoiled is.
I do not think either the Kohlin boys are really spoiled so to speak, but I am annoyed to see so many readers calling Adolin out for being so and forgetting all about Renarin… and the same goes for Kaladin who likes Renarin but hates Adolin because in his eyes one is spoiled and not the other one… I beg to strongly differ.
@wetlander, you raise an interesting point thatI have never considered. Renarin did request to be a part of Bridge 4. And this after he has begun his transformation as a “proto-Radiant.” Do you think he has seen a future where he needs to be a soldier, despite not being trained as one, and as such he is doing anything and everything in his power to learn? I mean, who, in their right mind, purposefully jumps off a roof onto his head? I don’t care if you’re wearing shardplate, that’s a whole new level of dedication.
One of the (many) things I love about Renarin is his willingness to obey those in authority over him. Another is his personal courage, especially as shown in uncomplainingly lugging that Blade around while it was screaming at him.
I hope to learn more soon about what he sees as a Truthwatcher. In any case, I’m reasonably confident that, whether he saw a future where he personally needs to be a soldier, or merely that humanity would need all the soldiers it could possibly muster, his determination to somehow learn to be a soldier is based on what he saw. I also expect it will go much better for him once he unbonds that Blade. In fact, once he sets aside both Blade and Plate and throws himself into becoming a full Radiant, I’m excited to see what he’ll become!
@43: The jumping from the roof seems to be part of standard training for Shardbearers. Zahel tells Adolin to go help his brother jumping… which implies he went through the same training a few years back. I may be wrong but I also think Kaladin former incarnation, Merrin, does the same in WoK Prime.
Renarin wanted to be part of Bridge 4 because he wanted to have a feel for being a soldier, but he knew his father would not let him join any other squad. As for his transformation, it happened before as he started hearing the screams several chapters ahead of asking Kaladin to be part of his team.
I do not think Renarin does “everything he can”, but this is a highly unpopular opinion as he does benefit from a very strong sympathy capital in the fandom. I will thus stop there, but to fuel the discussion furthermore let’s ask ourselves, what more could have Renarin done?
If Renarin truly renounced actively training to be a soldier, there’s still a simple explanation for why Dalinar didn’t take away his Plate and give it to someone else: he was too distracted by other things.
Remember that this entire book takes place in like two months. Two very busy months with a lot of distractions. And the 4-on-1 duel happens much closer to the end of the book than that. Even if Dalinar thought the Plate was more useful somewhere else, he could have simply not gotten around to making the change.
It might also be that Renarin wanted to join Bridge 4 because of something he saw in the members of it: considering they were his bodyguards, it’s possible he recognized them from visions? I know some people are rooting for Bridge 4 Radiants: maybe that’s part of why Renarin is hanging out with them.
As for “bridgeboy” as a term…I don’t think Adolin is using it maliciously, but that doesn’t mean the term isn’t abhorrent to use. It is, effectively, diminishing what any of the bridge runners had to go through in Sadeas’s camp. Furthermore, now that they’ve been released from Sadeas, we see the former bridge members latch onto that as a past crucible, something that helped make them the units they slowly become throughout Words of Radiance. “Bridgeboy” insults this, no matter the intent behind it – and while Adolin wasn’t ever exposed to those camps, he’s surrounded by guards who were all the time.
@Braid_Tug, others
I did not mean to imply that Adolin was intentionally calling Kaladin sub-human.
He almost certainly didn’t. That’s not the problem, the problem is that conotation does exist and it’s one that Kaladin–who let’s face it, looks for the worst in everything light eyes say and do anyway–would almost certainly see.
The thing is, Adolin is smart enough to have figured that out his own self, but he never stopped to think about it (Not that there’s a single person actual or fictional this isn’t guilty of saying something far more malicious than they intended some point in his or her life).
ButI said before, as someone who makes a habit of dueling people for insults to his family as well as for prestigue, Adolin of all people should known to be mindful of what he says and how he says it.
As far as Renarin goes?
I’ve never felt like commenting on him because he isn’t currently a recurring POV character, and frainkly, he doesn’t get much screen time. Even in most scenes he is in, he’s just sort of there in the background .
So I’ve got no real opinion on him at all.
I’m sure that will change as the spotlight (hopefully) shifts towards him more in future books.
@48: In my case, what is bothering me on calling Adolin out for refering to Kaladin as “Bridgeboy” is the fact he clearly does not do it out of malice, as you state it. Could he have had the presence of mind to reflect on his words? Yes, of course he could have, but I think he still would not have get it. So far, Adolin has been presented to us as an individual whose learning process is thightly linked to his own personal experience. In other words, he may know about the bridge runs, he may agree they were awful, but he just does not get how insulting he currently is. He is also a rather blunt guy who takes comments face palm: he never seem to see the hidden meanings. He is smart, but not when it comes to word play as we have already established.
Kaladin, on the other hand, purposetely uses a deemening term (I am referring to the not unobnoxious part) towards Adolin with the clear intend to make him appear dumb or stupid. Worst, he does it in front of a girl Adolin has just admitted he cared deeply for. Who in real life would easily forgive a friend or an acquaintance for trying to make you look stupid in front of your known crush?
Renarin, ah Renarin. So far I must say the fandom has depicted him in a way that contradicts my own interpretation. However, we have so little clues, either could be right or wrong or both. All characters have fall-outs and I do not see why Renarin should not have his (lack of drive, lack of perseverance, incapacity to move past his childhood expectations, lack of maturity). I am also very keen on reading more about him, so we could have a more round-up character.
I fail to see why Renarin doesn’t get some slack among a few commentors for something not under his control. I refer to his ‘blood’ disorder (actually a brain issue, whether on the Autistic spectrum or something else). It is manifested in siezures involving a partial paralysis. This physical inability to function on a battlefield has been a source of constant distress to Renarin and has generated feelings of inadequacy. His being given shardplate was apparently at the initiative of his father who gave him his own plate. The intent was to build up his self-confidence as well as to serve as protection. Kaladin, looking on as an outsider, considered the choice to have been foolish, but that need not be our judgment. Kaladin has a general and visceral prejudice against lighteyes. In time, he finds an appreciation and sympathy for Renarin, and starts the process of a proper diagnosis of Renarin’s condition. He also develops an appreciation and affection for Adolin despite his initial distaste. Of course, that evolution of his feelings towards the Kholin brothers pales in comparison to the radical change in his feelings towards Shallan. Such changes are part of the personal growth that we all need to experience when new knowledge and understandings lead to new judgments of people and the world.
Quick FWIW on Renarin: We know that he is on the autism spectrum, and he has some form of epilepsy. Perhaps it’s because my son has a developmental disorder and exhibits a few of the same characteristics as Renarin, but I can’t hold much of anything against Renarin. Living with a merely physical disability in a family & culture that glorifies the soldier would be hard enough. Add in the quirks of an autistic brain, and that boy’s life is NOT easy, no matter how it looks to an outsider. He’s also younger than Kaladin, by (probably) a bit less than a year.
The thing about Renarin is that he’s incredibly tough, especially considering the nature of his disabilities. His strength of will, despite both physical limitations and mental sensitivities, is astonishing. He never blames anyone else for anything; he quietly takes on burdens that weren’t actually his; he rarely complains, and then only when the emotional weight is sufficient to have broken most other people. So, yeah. I like Renarin, and when he digs in his heels about wanting to fight rather than quietly slink off to the ardentia, I won’t blame him for it.
I can understand the argument that Dalinar should have given Renarin’s Plate and Blade to someone who could use it more effectively, but I disagree with it. One more full Shardbearer wouldn’t have made all that much difference on the field, but protecting Renarin and his Radiantnessing is far more productive for the Alethi in the long run. (Not that I’m claiming that Dalinar knew that, or that Renarin would have claimed it, but it’s true of the story anyway.) In fact, if Renarin had accepted the urging to join the ardentia, he’d have been off in a monastery somewhere instead of here on the Shattered Plains where his countdown warnings will actually do some good.
So, yeah. I support Renarin wholeheartedly. (And it’s all your fault, for pushing me to work through my reasons for defending him! So there!)
Also, while I really don’t know where Brandon plans to take him, my hope is that Stormlight cures his epilepsy like it did his eyesight, but leaves his autism as it is. I’ll admit, though, this is probably mostly because I want to see what Brandon does in terms of writing from the perspective of someone with autism!
The problem with Renarin sickness is we, the readers, are not given appropriate insight to make ourselves a just evaluation. As a reader, I have asked myself the following questions:
1) Renarin cannot become a soldier because he has a sickness that causes partial paralysis. Fine. I agree with this, but how is it the same sickness prevents him from learning ANY swordsmanship in a controlled environment such as the training field? True, he will never become a soldier nor a duelist as his brother, but what stopped him from actually learning how to use the sword? The fits, as he calls them, do not seem to occur very often and seems limited to situations of high stress. It is thus safe to assume, from my reader’s perspective, Renarin could have learned, even if putting his skill into action would have been impossible. Thus his lack of self-confidence over not being able to learn how to fight seems far-fetched, still from my reader’s perspective.
2) Renarin cannot become a soldier and refuses to become an Ardent. Wheren’t there any other options for him? Why is it he is pratically left on his own with no define task or occupation within his household? Why is it Dalinar does not use Renarin for the administrative tasks more? Why is it the boy never does ANY work or, still from my reader’s perspective, does not seem to do any? If he does, then it has not been well brought up.
3) Renarin is 19 years old. His condition is nothing new. Why is it he angst now about becoming a soldier and has not insisted before? Dalinar has won countless of Shards in the war: he could have given his son a previous set if his intend was to boost his self-conficence, so why now? Why Renarin makes a big deal out of it now? Why not at 16? Or at 14? Why now? It is not well explained either.
4) Renarin is autistic, but most readers will never catch on it as it is hardly visible. Even aware readers have a hard time seeing him as such, so why give your character a disability barely recognizable? It feels Renarin autistim is too often use as a scape-goat: he cannot do better because he is autistic, it is not his fault, he is autistic and/or he has a sickness… Therefore, Renarin is not responsible for any of his issues, which does not sit well with my reader’s perspective.
Overal, I often feel Brandon created this character meant to have a low self-estime, but he did not give us enough background to understand. Each time I read Renarin, I wonder about these things. Hopefully, Brandon will give us better insight soon and help us better understand this character.
@52 Regarding 1), the fits being triggered by high stress means they’re likely to happen at the worst possible time. Even in training, there are likely to be moments when partial paralysis or seizures could be extremely dangerous. Why take the risk when he won’t actually be able to do anything with it? Alethi society does not seem like it’d be well-inclined to someone taking up swordplay as an elaborate form of exercise.
@53: If training involved him fighting one on one with another trainee while using real blades, I would agree. However, he could have received a personal tutoring, outside the prying eyes, with dull blades. In a war-oriented society, it seems illogical to have one highborn son without any self-defense capacity. It was possible to mitigate the risk. Besides, having one son completely unable to defend himself in the case of an aggression does not seem realistic.
In other words, Renarin is not sick enough nor crippled enough to make me believe there were no other alternatives to his story.
Although I’m assuming, considering how they react, I wouldn’t be surprised if they had considered the idea of training him secretly, but then rejected it. At any point where Renarin freezes, Dalinar and the rest always assume its his condition (even later on, when it is spren-screaming instead). On one hand, this shows how ignorant they are about what is truly going on in Renarin’s head. On the other hand, what if this also indicates that Renarin’s condition always acted up in situations where it’s some stress or activity (i.e. it’s not just that his life is in danger – what if it occurs just at a certain threshold of physical activity, which could easily be reached during training)? If so, then training Renarin for self-defense without Plate would basically be pointless: he would have to go through arduous, difficult training for basic skills probably in between fits (which wouldn’t be healthy anyways) that, when they’re needed, he wouldn’t be able to use.
As to why Dalinar didn’t get Renarin a set of Plate earlier, Dalinar himself reflected on this in TWoK, how the Parshendi had Shardbearers but he hadn’t seen any for a while (before Eshonai showed up and revealed they had one last Shardbearer), and how he regretted not being able to win Renarin a set of Plate. So why didn’t Dalinar just get a set for Renarin before the fighting with the Parshendi? Well, remember, the Dalinar we’ve known is different, transformed from how he was before Gavilar was assassinated – a transformation that progressed during the war. Navani was even scared of Dalinar back before he changed – I imagine the Blackthorn would be even more terrifying to a young teenager who thinks he’s a disgrace because he can’t serve the traditional male role in his society (the one that both his father and older brother can fulfill easily).
IMO Renarin being autistic just exacerbates the situation he’s in, but there’s more than enough there to explain why he is so conflicted and confused.
Edit: Just to be clear, I’m not trying to diminish how the autims might affect him – it definitely doesn’t help in his situation, especially since he lives in a society that doesn’t recognize it. I just mean that his situation even without counting the autism is enough, from my perspective, to justify the difficulties he’s had.
Gepeto, you’re not considering the psychological implications of Renarin’s condition in Alethi society. That society stresses the warrior ideal for males, making it a vital vocation in preparation for the afterworld. Renarin is totally unfit for combat, and training would not be of much help. Nor is he prepared for other vocations involving reading and writing since Alethi culture disdains such abilities for males. His status as a highprince also makes him unsuitable for the Ardentia since the latter are considered slaves. In a word, he is a total misfit in Alethi society. That situation must have a profound psychological effect on the victim such as feelings of worthlessness. It is hardly surprising that he did not engage in training prior to acquiring shardplate, both from what was expected of him and what he expected of himself. Nor was he useless. He played a key support role and calming influence on his talented but volatile brother.
Gepeto @@@@@ several – For you, Renarin hasn’t been developed enough to accept the “excuses” given as valid excuses. For me, Renarin hasn’t been developed enough for me to condemn his “failures” as actual failures. It’s all a matter of perspective, isn’t it? I go into it assuming that there are appropriate reasons for Renarin to be where he is now; my own background knowledge of autism and disability makes me quite willing to accept that some things we would normally expect of a highprince’s second son are not going to be suitable for him.
There are, IMO, plenty of hints that Renarin doesn’t just sit around doing nothing, that he tries to be as useful as he can in whatever ways he can, and is likely much busier than you might think. However, what you read in depends on what you expect to find out, so you and I can read the same things and see the character very differently. Some time about ten years from now, when we get Renarin’s flashback sequence, maybe all our questions will be answered.
ETA: I think the idea of Dalinar winning “countless” Shards is a slight exaggeration, by the way. There weren’t that many to be won. Even so, why is that a problem? Every Shard he’s won previously was given to a trained soldier; it’s only now, when Dalinar has decided to give up his own Shards, that he gives his personal set to his son.
@56: There has to be other options… Afteral, it is not as if every high ranked lighteyed we have met were warriors… Sebarial and Roion, for example, are not good soldiers and yet they occupy a prized position. I just have a hard time believing there is no other tasks, not involving soldering, reading nor writing, he could have performed adequately. Perhaps it is Dalinar did not try hard enough with his second son?
@57: Yes. You are putting it in the right words. The reasons explaining Renarin current predicaments are not sufficient for me, personally, as a reader to accept them as valid “excuses”. I also think everything surroundig Renarin is too convenient… Everything single failure he does have tend to be explained by situations outside his control, which does not hold up with me. Surely he does bear some responsability in it all.
Also, the fact he has autism has not been brought up significantly enough for me to endorse it. Had I not read the WoB on the matter, I would have never guessed. Worst now I do know about it, I still have a very hard time reading him as such. I even went as far as reading articles on autism such as to know what to look for, but it is hardly there. IMO, I have very limited experience with autism in real life, which may be why I struggle with it, but shouldn’t it be more obvious in book? If I were to write an autistic character, as an author, I would want people to recognize him as such… Shouldn’t there be more clues? It would seriously help readers understand this character as I doubt I am the only one with issues with Renarin.
It is possible he does not do nothing all day, but we do not se him doing much, not until he starts training and joins Bridge 4. Kaladin remarks how his hands were soft and never saw work…
As for Dalinar wining countless of Shards, I think it is Adolin who says it in WoK. He does state his father has won over a dozen duels. It is safe to assume he must have won shards as well: just in the matter of one month, Adolin won something like 4 Blades and 5 Plates…… My whole point was if Renarin was so set on trying to become a soldier, why not give him a Plate before? Why does his desire suddenly matter more now then it did before?
I agree it is all a matter of perspectives. From my perspective, Renarin is a young man with clear limitations (both physical and psychological) that refused to use up his strengths and thus spend a lifetime focusing on what he could not do as opposed to what he could do.
Re: winning Shards – Dalinar, at least in the years since his sons were old enough to wear Plate, has only been winning them from the Parshendi, and there were always a limited number of those to be won. Adolin is winning Shards from other Alethi in duels. Generally speaking, even a duel with Shards doesn’t forfeit the loser’s Shards, unless they are specifically wagered on the outcome. Adolin winning 3 Blades and 4 sets of Plate (not 4 & 5) is extremely unusual, and has (with the ones they already held) suddenly given the Kholin princedom control of a quarter of the Alethi Shards.
More background: Adolin’s Plate came from his mother’s side of the family, and was given him on his sixteenth birthday. Renarin, who turned 19 sometime in the last year, would in any case not have received Plate more recently than the last 3-4 years.
@@@@@ Gepeto There’s no reason to worry about rethinking the way you see Renarin as a character just because Brandon says he has autism, or that you didn’t notice.
Autism lies on a spectrum and there are dozens of ways it can manifest. Odds are you have interacted with a number of people at various times who lie somewhere on that spectrum and just not realized it.
In fact, the spectrum is so broad there have been arguments among psychologists over whether they should all be included under the single, blanket term “autism” in the DSM.
Regardless, I’m still holding off on forming any opinion of my own on Renarin until we know more about him in the future.
@59: It could be Adolin winning so many Shards in such a short time period gave me a false idea as to how easy it was to garner them. I believe Adolin also mentions how he won his beloved Blade as a young inexperienced teenager (on one of his first if not the first official duel). In any cases, he won the Blade before he bonded Sureblood, an event which probably occured before they moved to the Shattered Plains, meaning Adolin must have been 16, 17 to the most when he became a full Shardbearer. It seems rather young considering Sadeas never managed to win himself a Blade after 30 years of intense warring.
Thank you for correcting me on the number of Shards he won: I can never remember accurately. I should have specifed so.
True about Renarin, but didn’t Dalinar won a few Shards while on the Plains? He could have retained one suit for his youngest…
@60: Thank you. It just seems strange to have one character being defined by a particularity and not make it more obvious. Why say Renarin has autism if most readers will not notice nor catch onto it? It is just a puzzling choice. Hopefully, future POV by Renarin will settle this issues I have.
I know I sounded harsh on him at times, but I do appreciate him as a character, even if I struggle to understand him. I adore his relationship with his brother and how they look up for each other. His complete lack of jealousy towards his more successful brother is very endearing. I have been personally rooting for Brandon to reverse their role at some point in making Adolin needing strong support and having Renarin providing it.
@12 Gepeto: “On the side note, am I the only one who notices the emphasis Brandon has put on both Shallan and Adolin’s hair coloring?” I read a WOB somewhere where he was asked if Adolin and Renarin are legitimate sons of Dalinar. BWS responded something like “Good Question. Yes, they are. Their mother’s background is important. and something about Renarin not getting all of his Dad’s hair.” I’ll see if I can find it, but in the last couple of days I’ve seemed to lost my facility with finding them. Maybe my interviewspren has gone off traveling. Anyway, the blond streak in Adolin’s hair (is it blond or gold?) could be significant.
I recall a WoB where Brandon stated both Adolin and Renarin were legitimate and genetic explained why Adolin had more blond than Renarin. I do not recall anything stating their mother’s background was important though. I would really love if someone could produce this specific WoB. The one I have in mind says Renarin did not get as much of the hair as Adolin and another one said it was simply because of genetic…
Adolin’s hair are described “golden blond”. He is called “golden” on several’s occasions, so I would say they are definitely gold. Renarin’s hair are never truly described in book, but nobody ever called him “blond”. Dalinar states both boys had golden locks and Brandon confirmed Renarin did not have as much blond as his brother. So we can safely assume Renarin’s hair are mostly black with a few blond locks. Adolin, I believe, is described as being mostly golden blond with a few black hair not even locks.
I suspect there is something of import in their mother’s background as well, but I just cannot put my finger on it. She was a very different woman, potentially an artist of some talent as she did make the drawings of Adolin’s plate which Shallan approved of. Navani thought her dumb, but I do not trust Navani’s judgement in the matter as she tend to disregard anyone not interested in scholar pursuits. I suspect Adolin takes a lot after his mother in a great many things.
I know it’s really late, but I’m rereading along here, and this bit of forshadowing hasn’t been mentioned by anyone else.
When Adolin names the Shardbearers of not, it sounds like he’s picking the important ones – ie the best. “Abrobadar, Jakamav, Resi, Relis”. (They’re not all friends of his, and one of them is later noted as the current highest ranked duelist).
And three of them are the ones he fights in the arena later….
So he wasn’t just up against any four duelists, but perhaps three of the top four (plus an angry cousin).
I hope someone gets to read this :)
RE @64 – Mwahahaha… I see them all, yes, I do… ;)
It’s a good point – the non-highprince Shardbearers at this meeting would be the best ones each of the other highprinces have in their entourage. Also, since Adolin is looking for duels, he’s of course looking at the best ones in the room. And… of course, when Relis decides to accept his challenge, where does he go for help except the best?
@64 : good catch!
And welcome to the reread.
I love the ” conversations” tab is back on Tor. It’s always cool to see comments on the older threads.