Welcome back to the Words of Radiance Reread on Tor.com! Last week, Adolin took Dalinar’s place to meet Eshonai and discuss her proposal, only to find it withdrawn and defiance in its place. This week, Shallan and Kaladin each improve their Radiant skills as they take steps toward their intermediate goals.
This reread will contain spoilers for The Way of Kings, Words of Radiance, and any other Cosmere book that becomes relevant to the discussion. The index for this reread can be found here, and more Stormlight Archive goodies are indexed here.
Click on through to join the discussion!
Chapter 52: Into the Sky
Point of View: Kaladin, Shallan
Setting: The Warcamps, the Shattered Plains
Symbology: Spears, Jezrien, Shalash
IN WHICH Kaladin wanders the edge between the chasms and the warcamps, musing, then steps into the chasm; Shallan, disguised first as a messenger boy and then as a maid, infiltrates Amaram’s manor; Kaladin attempts to alternate between running on the floor and running on the wall, but realizes he needs to work on the basics first; Shallan finesses a couple of close encounters and makes it to Amaram’s secret room, which turns out to contain maps; Kaladin discovers that his body fears falling even when his mind knows it’s safe; Shallan can’t take time to make sense out of the maps and glyph-writing, so she takes Memories of everything, then begins to draw frantically; Kaladin continues cautiously until he accidentally avoids a puddle with a reflexive Lashing, and sees how to change his perceptions; Shallan exits the house disguised first as Amaram, then as the messenger boy, and in giving Amaram the message which was her first alibi, she discovers that the Blade he bears is the one which had belonged to her brother Helaran; Kaladin improves dramatically and finally throws himself at the sky, surrounded by windspren; Shallan confirms that the man from whom Amaram obtained his Shards was indeed her brother, who is now certainly dead; as Kaladin returns to earth, he is dissuaded by Syl from going after Amaram right away, but on arriving in his room, he finds Shen waiting to say goodbye.
Quote of the Week
“It’s like when I first picked up a spear,” Kaladin whispered. “I was just a child. Were you with me back then? All that time ago?”
“No,” Syl said, “and yes.”
“It can’t be both.”
“It can. I knew I needed to find you. And the winds knew you. They led me to you.”
“So everything I’ve done,” Kaladin said. “My skill with the spear, the way I fight. That’s not me. It’s you.”
“It’s us.”
“It’s cheating. Unearned.”
“Nonsense,” Syl said. “You practice every day.”
“I have an advantage.”
“The advantage of talent,” Syl said. “When the master musician first picks up an instrument and finds music in it that nobody else can, is that cheating? Is that art unearned, just because she is naturally more skilled? Or is it genius?”
…
“I’ll take it,” Kaladin said. “Whatever it is that gives me that edge. I’ll use it. I’ll need it to beat him.”
…
Kaladin nodded, light wind ruffling his jacket as he fell through the night. “Syl…” How to broach this? “I can’t fight him without a Shardblade.”
She looked the other way, squeezing her arms together, hugging herself. Such human gestures.
“I’ve avoided the training with the Blades that Zahel offers,” Kaladin continued. “It’s hard to justify. I need to learn how to use one of those weapons.”
“They’re evil,” she said in a small voice.
“Because they’re symbols of the knights’ broken oaths,” Kaladin said. “But where did they come from in the first place? How were they forged?”
Syl didn’t answer.
“Can a new one be forged? One that doesn’t bear the stain of broken promises?”
“Yes.”
“How?”
She didn’t reply.
I know, I know. That’s way too long for QOTW. But it’s all so important! Not that it answers any questions for us, at this stage. Syl was with him back then, but she also kinda wasn’t. His skill with the spear is somehow a joint effect—which explains some things that happen later, perhaps. And she knows how a new Blade can be forged… she just can’t tell. ::sigh::
Commentary
This was a crazy chapter, as it alternates between short clips of Kaladin and Shallan on their different missions. Each is honing their Radiant skills, making use of them, working toward a specific goal. The juxtaposition was fascinating to follow, though.
Kaladin is just beginning to seriously practice his Windrunning, and this night is one of intentional training to confront Szeth when he returns. Shallan has obviously been practicing her Lightweaving, and can now prepare multiple disguises ahead of time, switching between them as needed; her goal, for tonight, is to infiltrate Amaram’s manor on behalf of the Ghostbloods—a mission that was assigned clear back in Chapter 43, which seems like years ago!
Kaladin works and works on the basics, until he finally does something different by instinct—and suddenly, it all comes clear, and the Lashings become natural. I find it highly amusing that the breakthrough comes when he instinctively avoids falling in a puddle again. There’s a glorious sense of thrill and triumph, as he finally, finally, really becomes a Windrunner. There’s a feeling that everything is going to come right, now, and that he and Syl are going to get this figured out. There’s such a joy in his new skill… and then it descends into anger and self-justification as he returns to earth, with his bitterness toward Amaram and shielding Moash. It turns foreboding, too, as Shen prepares to depart, gives Kaladin his real name of Rlain, and is clearly apprehensive about where he’s going. His statement, “The winds are not what I fear,” gives me the shudders.
Shallan, meanwhile, has her own series of successes, through much greater danger; her sequence of disguise and misdirection achieves the immediate goal of obtaining access to Amaram’s secret room, which is a triumph in itself, but she has to work very quickly to get everything in Memory, and then pull off another masquerade to cover her tracks and keep anyone from getting suspicious. There’s a feeling of elation, as she manipulates the cook into not mentioning her presence to Amaram and exits the manor. There’s a feeling of relief as she slips back into the messenger disguise and is in the right place for Amaram to find her. There’s a nice little resolution as she delivers her message about “her mistress” wanting to document Amaram’s Shards… and then it descends into horror and grief as she discovers that his Blade is the one once held by her beloved brother Helaran. Amaram’s blithe description of the “assassin” and his own “counterattack” which killed the young man is all too sickeningly vivid, and all her accomplishments of the night are buried in the sorrow of knowing that her brother is truly dead.
Parallel stories, indeed, and tied together at the end by Amaram’s role in each of their sufferings.
Stormwatch
This is the same day as the previous chapter, in which Adolin had the ill-fated meeting with Eshonai. Thirty-one days remain in the countdown.
Sprenspotting
The windspren! The windspren! I can’t wait to find out if the theory about windspren coming together to form Plate is correct… In any case, the behavior of the windspren here certainly foreshadows their behavior in the climax.
…Syl zipped along to his right.
And to his left? No, those were other windspren. He’d accumulated dozens of them, flying around him as ribbons of light. He could pick out Syl. He didn’t know how; she didn’t look different, but he could tell. Like you could pick a family member out of a crowd just by their walk.
Syl and her cousins twisted around him in a spiral of light, free and loose, but with a hint of coordination.
…
A hundred windspren broke around him, like the crash of a wave, spraying outward from Kaladin in a fan of light.
He grinned. Then he looked upward, toward the sky.
What is this “hint of coordination,” hmmm? Will they, or won’t they? I think they will.
Ars Arcanum
We already talked about this to some extent, but I want to look at a few more details. One thing that bugged me on my first reading only just became clear tonight—while washing dishes, of course. Shallan couldn’t take the time to actually study the maps and the glyphs, so she took Memories of them. Once finished with that, she slaps a piece of paper on the desk and starts drawing frantically—but she’d just thought that she’d do all the drawing when she was safely back in her rooms. Why was she drawing?
…Well, duh. She hadn’t planned to disguise herself as Amaram, so she needed to draw him in order to make sure the cook didn’t bring up any of this again, especially to Telesh. Not sure why it took me so long to figure that out!
Other than that, I enjoyed seeing the skills she’s been practicing: multiple disguises which she can switch off, combined with a few physical props that simply make it easier; working with Pattern to provide different voices when necessary; and of course Pattern’s ability to unlock things. Good stuff, and extremely useful!
About Kaladin’s practice, I can certainly see Kaladin doing things exactly the way he did, including “hopping onto and off the wall a couple hundred times.” If it were me, though, I’d practice it in my own room, leaning against a wall and just shifting the direction of “down” over and over. Standing on the floor, then lying on the wall, then standing on the floor… all without moving. But then, I’m lazy and my method wouldn’t be nearly as cinematic. And it wouldn’t provide the opportunity to fall out of a puddle. Heh.
Heraldic Symbolism
For once I feel safe in saying that these are totally obvious. Kaladin and Shallan are each actively practicing their Radiant skills, and so the Heralds associated with their Orders naturally watch over the chapter: Jezrien, for the Windrunner, and Shalash, for the Lightweaver. “Into the Sky” hardly needs clarification.
Words of Radiants
Now, as the Truthwatchers were esoteric in nature, their order being formed entirely of those who never spoke or wrote of what they did, in this lies frustration for those who would see their exceeding secrecy from the outside; they were not naturally inclined to explanation; and in the case of Corberon’s disagreements, their silence was not a sign of an exceeding abundance of disdain, but rather an exceeding abundance of tact.
—From Words of Radiance, chapter 11, page 6
This is the only mention of the Truthwatchers in the entire book until we reach Chapter 89, where Renarin reveals himself as a Truthwatcher. (And yes, I still think his claim is valid.) When we first read this epigraph, then, we had no idea of what Truthwatchers might do, and this gave us no further clue. Basically, they didn’t tell anyone what they did? Helpful. I have to wonder, though: what good is it to see the future if you never tell anyone else what you see? Or did they, as an Order, pool their information, decide what needed to be done about it, and tell the other Orders whatever they felt was necessary?
In any case, Renarin seems set to change that secrecy, at least among the small circle of known Radiants.
Just Sayin’
Totally irrelevant to the origin of this unit, but it strikes me as the perfect placement. As much time as I spent with Team Sanderson last weekend, we spent oddly little time talking about the books. One question I did ask Brandon, though, was whether Ym was an Edgedancer. We both acknowledged that with the healing thing, he had to be either an Edgedancer or a Truthwatcher, of course. He pointed out that Ym’s spren doesn’t look at all like Wyndle, which I countered by saying that I thought the Ym’s spren manifested the way Wyndle would if you couldn’t see the Cognitive Realm. He just smiled… and said something like, “I’m going to RAFO that. You’re very wise, and I put the description in for a reason, but I’m going to RAFO for now.”
Which means… nothing, really. “You’re very wise” can very well mean, “That was good logic, and would make sense if that’s what I was doing, but I wasn’t.” It can also mean, “You figured it out, but I don’t want to confirm it just yet.” Or… something else. Anyway, it’s still a RAFO. I guess we’ll just have to watch for manifestations of Glys; maybe we can see what he looks like by comparison. I find that I’m hoping it doesn’t mean we’ll see Ym again, because the only way I see that happening is if Nalan is going around only-mostly-killing Radiants and then bringing them back to life… and that just doesn’t sound like a good thing at all.
Well. That was a long chapter, and I didn’t even get to the discussion of Amaram and the stormwarden glyph-writing, which is important in light of the past few weeks’ discussion. So we’ll hit that in the comments, which ought to keep us busy until next week, when Adolin returns to the dueling arena for more fun and games.
Alice Arneson is a long-time Tor.com commenter and Sanderson beta-reader. She’s also still recovering from Sasquan. Oy. What a week!
So, it’s been a while since I’ve read the book, but do we ever get an explanation as to why Syl couldn’t tell Kaladin that the shardblades were dead spren?
I’m still confused over how he was destined to be a Windrunner even before he suffered the trauma that allows him to bond a spren. Shallan was bonded to Pattern before she she was broken too, does this mean that anyone seemingly on their way to becoming a Radiant is destined to be traumatised more first?
hihosilver28 @1 – Not explicitly, that I recall. There’s at least an implicit case that she couldn’t tell him until he advanced far enough to gain his own Blade; once he voiced the third Ideal and Syl could take form, she spoke freely about it. Whether that was due to restrictions on what she was allowed to say, or on what she knew, is less clear. I go with the former, because I’m pretty sure she knew all along what was wrong with the rest of them.
Sudden thought: if Kaladin’s talent in spear-fighting (is that a word?) comes from a joint effort between him and Syl, is Shallan’s drawing talent similarly magnified by Pattern?
I have a theory on why the Truthwatchers were so reticent. When a Truthwatcher sees a vision, that vision is of the future as it would unfold without the benefit of the Truthwatcher’s new knowledge. Therefore, as soon as the Truthwatcher takes any action to alter the course of fate, (foremost of which actions would be sharing their knowledge), then the vision becomes unreliable. So each Truthwatcher would have to be very careful to use their foreknowledge to greatest effect.
@2: I had wondered the same things… One of the many things bugging me with Kaladin… He states on a few occasions how he had always known the winds and the sky, how he had been doing this since childhood and yet Syl admits she has started bonding him while he was in Amaram’s army. So many things I am unable to explain.
@@.-@: I did not recall Brandon explicitly refute the idea part of Kaladin’s fighting skill comes from his bond, but he has stated the Windrunners “special” thing was not combat abilities, but squires strength. It has been theorized many times his apparent ease at which he learned to master his weapon was linked to Syl. It is my understanding the Nahel bond gives him superior strength, stamina, reflexes and skill, but it only enhance what he already possess. Based on this, I am completely unable to dissociate Kaladin’s fighting ability form his bond to the point where I am unsure how much is his and how much is this omph Radiants seem to get.
As for the chapter at end, it left me with an ill-feeling as all chapter where they train leave me. Mastering surges do not appear difficult: a few trials and errors essays before it works… My head is violently rejecting the idea “magic” is that easy but it seems to be the case with the Radiants. I literally failed to grasp what it is they need to learn as it seems to me as surgebinding is heavily intuitive and requires little training. In that regards, I have found Shallan’s progression more realistic as it is clear she is not mastering lightweaving and she has not even begun to use transformation.
Kaladin… Kaladin is a sore spot for me… He is, in all appearances, super talented with the spear, a weapon he mastered beyond anything anyone has ever seen relatively quickly (Yes, he trained for a few years, but a few years do not seem enough to reach that level of mastery. Can you really become a black belt within 4 years?). He also is super talented at surgebinding as, after a few weeks, he is besting Szeth who had years to train. He is also super talented in surgery as illustrated by Lirin comments on his son’s potential and his own trajectory where, despite being an apprentice, he still is picture as a quite good surgeon. Is there anything the guy can’t do???
@5: As Renarin illustrated in the end of WoR, interpreting the vision is very tricky…. Clearly, he failed at it and put himself into a turmoil thinking they were doomed. It could be Truthwatchers were reticent to share to avoid people from panicking and misinterpreting the visions.
@1: I was under the impression that Syl generally had the broad strokes of the whole Nahel Bond thing. In one of the books, she all but says that she doesn’t know what she doesn’t know. Information is revealed to her as Kaladin gets further along, and she infodumps him the minute she can. It’s not conscious, intentional secrecy at all.
@6 Gepeto
The magic system seems easy to learn, but there’s a reason for that–it also isn’t all that versatile compared to some magic systems that are harder to learn.
Aeon Dor has hundreds if not thousands of applications from healing, to making food, teleportation and even making fireballs and the like. But that power takes knowledge of the Aeons and their modifiers plus a steady hand to draw correctly. It makes sense it would be hard to master.
Windrunners on the other hand can only actually do three things: make things stick to each other, change gravity’s direction for an object, or make an object attract other objects. All three involve breathing in stormlight then putting it in something else.
While additional muscle memory and creativity might come with time, I don’t imagine it would take someone as smart as Kaladin all that long to figure out the basics and get fairly good at it. He knows how to breath in storm light, he knows how to put it somewhere else.
As far as the spear goes, this one has a basis planted firmly in reality. For several thousand years infantry soldiers were given spears as opposed to any other weapon for two reasons: the first and primary reason is that they were easy to learn how to use. Unlike swords and especially bows, a spear in the hands of a relative novice was a dangerous weapon able to attack and defend at a range beyond what a sword could get to him.
In fact a man with relatively little training with a spear could realistically handle a better trained swordsman, particularly as part of a squad (the other reason is they were easy to produce and replace).
For Kaladin to train with a spear every single day for years and not master it would actually be less realistic.
On a side note, four years is oddly enough exactly how long it takes to become a Black Belt in many disciplines depending on the student and school. (That being said a “Black Belt” is not a master, there are many ranks within black belts that take many years to achieve beyond the initial one of Shodan).
As far as I remember most chapters in TWoK and WoR are one character viewpoints. Occasionally, the chapters have viewpoints from more than one character. However, the entire chapter’s arc is told from one character’s viewpoint and the rest of the chapter deals with the other’s character’s arc. I do not recall Brandon using the style of jumping between the two viewpoint characters for a few pages at a time. I think it created an nice effect. (I do not think it would work as well if he did it several times for each book).
I believe that this writing style enhanced the emotional up and downs that both Shallan and Kaladin felt in this chapter. Alice, that was a good point about how Kaladin and Shallan’s thoughts or knowldege, respectively, of Amaram at the end of their arcs in the chapter cast a pall on the accomplishments that Shallan and Kaladin achieved. I did not make that connection when I first read WoR.
Thanks for reading my musings.
AndrewHB
aka the musespren
Things Kaladin can’t do: Objectively evaluate a situation involving Lighteyes.
Was I the only one cracking up/horrified at Shallan’s reaction to men reading?
Yes, Shallan, it’s not right for men to read. As Gaston said, soon, they start getting ideas and thinking. Just imagine what that would do to Alethi society.
Brandon is so good at cinematic moments like this. This sentence just gives me chills. The first time I read it I had to highlight it so I could go back and find it!
@5, I like your theory regarding the Truthwatchers.
@8: Thank you for your post. It does shed some light into learning the spear versus the sword. I was reluctant to consider the sword a harder weapon as I seem to recall conversations where people advocated it was the same. I obviously have no experience yielding a weapon so my impressions are tightly linked to what I perceived must be the case. In any advent, I’d be interested to learn more about the intricacies of learning the sword versus the spear. Do you have a resource I could read about how soldiers were primary trained with the spear due to the ease of getting proficient with it?
I also obviously have no experience in martial arts… I used the term Black Belt naively thinking it was the highest possible rank. Kaladin is described as being unbelievably, undeniably, amazingly, incredibly talented and good which made me think he had achieved the highest possible rank one could get with the spear…. Four years seemed… quick unless the spear is an easy enough weapon to learn it actually is possible.
However, how would you rank Kaladin with the spear? I have been disturbed to see him hold his own against Szeth with a sword as he had had very little training… Surely a few lessons are not enough.
For the magic system, I guess I am bummed it seems so easy. To be fair, the surges of transformation and transportation seem harder to master. The surge of progression was deceptively easy. I am appalled at how easy it was for Lift to heal Gawx… How can something as complex as healing be so simple as to blow on someone’s face? However, this may be a discussion for when that chapter arrives.
@@.-@
I can’t remember where it was pointed out (I think it was one of the interviews that Brandon did last year), but it was said that Shallan’s ability to take a memory is tied her bond with Pattern. This kinda like Kaladin’s ability with the spear, a natural ability/talent (fight/drawing respectively) that are enhanced by the bond.
@2
I think people pay too much attention to the fact that a person has to break before they can start to use the magic. Another thing that (in my mind) is as important is that in order for a person to have potential to even use the magic in any of Sanderson’s worlds is that they need the right bloodline. Which explains why almost the whole Kholin family is a KR or is shown to have the potential to be a KR. Kaladin could have sensed the potential for using the wind but until he “broke” he couldn’t actually form the bond with Sly.
Side note: What kinda is exciting to me about that is that somewhere in Kaladin’s family history there was another KR. I’m thinking it was on his mother’s side of the family.
@5
Kaladin’s chronic competence is actually one of the reasons I’m super excited/nervous about him and Jasnah meeting. And while everyone what shipping Kaladin/Shallan back in WoK before they even met, I was sitting back in my corner shipping Kaladin/Jasnah. Snark bromance of the ages between Shallan/Kaladin and a meeting of scary competence and ferocity of mind between Jasnah/Kaladin. That would make me dance for joy if it actually happened. Though I’m not going to put hope into it.
Is there any concept of reincarnation on Roshar? Could Kaladin be a reincarnated KR?
And maybe the spren are sensitive to the people that have the potential to become KR. Thus the “winds knew.” But until they hit a critical point (brokenness) the spren are not able to bond. This is off the top of my head, so I haven’t thought it through too much.
Re: Syl, my guess is that she didn’t remember what was wrong with the dead blades until after Kaladin said the second ideal. So currently she knows, but is unable to talk about it. Prior she had the since of wrongness.
@9: Sanderson’s general style is to start skipping between character POV inside a chapter the once the climax starts. (Or the Brandon Cascade, as it is sometimes called.) So to do so in the middle of the book like he did here is a major break in the normal pattern. But I think more effective than if we had had the two POVs in back to back chapters with the understating they were both happening at the same time.
Hope to say more later.
WRT Kaladin’s “chronic competence” – even in real life, there are people like this. No matter what they try, they’re just naturally good at it. Which is not to say that they don’t have to practice, but they start out doing better than most people, and when they practice they get much better much faster than most others. So I don’t find Kaladin’s natural skill, or the fact that he is so quickly enhanced by his emerging bond, at all unrealistic; as Syl says, he has the advantage of talent.
About the multiple-POVs per chapter – Brandon does it quite a bit, actually, but he doesn’t usually do it this way, where each segment only takes a few minutes before dodging back to the other character for a few minutes, or where there are so many shifts. (This chapter has ten breaks – so eleven segments. And yet, it doesn’t feel choppy.) I agree – it would be horrible to read a book where most of it was written that way, but in this particular case, it really works to build tension and excitement. I have a love/hate relationship with the endings, though; it’s great storytelling, but it was downright painful to have that build-up get smashed by “reality.” :(
@@@@@ 13 kei_rin, your surmise about a spren-bond only enhancing natural talent is explicitly stated in WoK with regard to Kaladin’s performance with a spear to save his men and rescue Dalinar’s army. Kaladin had trained exhaustively with a spear – as he recounts, and is quick. However, his skill manifested towards the end is greater than is humanly warranted in terms of speed and reaction time. On the other hand, his relative lack of training in the sword made him a poor match for Szeth in that weapon. Only Syl’s ability to anticipate Kaladin’s needs in that battle and to transform also to a spear, hammer, axe, or shield allowed him to counter Szeth’s fighting skill and to ultimately defeat him. As to a suggested pairing of him and Jasnah, that seems very unlikely. She is not only considerably older, but is an arrogant lighteyed princess. Kaladin has barely tolerated lighteyes in the past. He made an exception for Dalinar’s family and Shallan when he was able to properly evaluate their moral stature. Jasnah would have to change considerably for Kaladin to have any interest other than learning what she knows of Rosharian history, the Radiant Orders, Voidbringers, and the Cosmere.
@@@@@12 Gepeto, Lift is depicted as having unique Surgebinding abilities such as being able to use her spren, Wyndle, for climbing and being able to convert food to stormlight energy. Wyndle attributes such ability to Lift being partly in the Cognitive spren world. In other words, she is partly a spren, or having sprenlike ability that was granted to her when she visited the Nightwatcher superspren (or is it Cultivation, herself). Regrowth ability is also apparently more accessible to incipient Radiants, as indicated by Ym’s healing abilities. Of course, reviving Gawx whose heart had stopped from massive blood loss is a far greater feat than curing a festering sore on that urchin boy, but Nalan has managed to revive Szeth using that Fabrial despite Szeth’s suffering a soul-destroying Shardblade wound and falling on rock from a great height.
Love the commentary so far, but since no one else has my fifth-grade sense of humor and this needs to be pointed (since I love the humor that BS sneaks in):
“A hundred windspren broke around him”
It is a good thing that Kaladin was training alone. No one else could have withstood the smell…
@STBLST
Yeah I know it’s not likely, but a girl can dream. Really, I just want to re-cast Pride and Prejudice with Kaladin and Jasnah as Lizzy and Darcy respectively. :D
On a side note the age difference between Kaladin and Jasnah is less of an impediment than other things that you stated in my mind. It’s not the normal that we expect to see in a relationship. We often see depictions of younger women with older men in media but not so much the other way around even though that it’s just as likely a possibility. It’s still super unlikely that Sanderson would do a romantic relationship between them though. *sigh*
Pertaining the multiple breaks in this chapter… Back in WoK, nearly all of Dalinar’s chapter were interlaced with Adolin’s POV. I do consider this part of Brandon’s writing style. It does not unnerve me as I did not feel he was abusing of the cascade.
@15: I guess you are right and there are such people. However, I have found it strange he was apparently as talented with physical tasks as he was for intellectual tasks. Typically, people are not equally good in both. Based on your comment, I can see it as realistic, but it does lessen my appreciation of Kaladin as a character. I find it irritating, which is unfair on my part as it is not his fault.
@16: My problem with Regrowth is my mind tells me anything pertaining to healing others has to be difficult, but it is shown as being unbelievably trivial. There seems to be no limitations. Of course, we are being told brain death cannot be healed, which is fine, but if I make the parallel with WoT where Aes Sedai were not all powerful with regards to healing, Regrowth appears as Deus Ex Machina. In WoT, curable injuries could still kill if the Aes Sedai did not have the knowledge, the skill or the strength to heal it. In WoR, any injuries short of brain death are quickly and easily healed with either a little fabrial or a Radiant who as to do not much… How can it even be justifiable healing is this easy? When Lift blew on Gawx face, the stormlight knew what to do? It knew to seal the wound, pump the heart, restore the loss blood? She did not even have to think about these? To direct it? It does not make sense or I cannot put it in my head it does. In any advent, it is horribly deceiving if it indeed turns out this way. If any character shall suffer a bad injury, fear not, Renarin (Should we bet on how long it will take for Renarin to figure out he can heal Adolin’s broken wrist?) or Lift will make it alright in a few seconds… Unless there are limitations to this surge which we haven’t heard of. I deeply wish it is the case.
@18 I have to agree with STBLST. Jasnah is a high nosed, spoiled, cold, dismissing lighteyed. She also is extremely smart, intelligent and analytic, but she reversely is the perfect embodiment of all Kaladin hates in lighteyes.
I also doubt Jasnah would be interested in entering any romantic relationship with a 20 years old darkeyes soldier with a slave brand… He may be smart and a Radiant, but I see a chasm between these two.
@17:
*rimshot*
Jasnah being a spoiled, dismissive, high nosed lighteyed women is an argument that could be made about any lighteyed women that Kal might be paired up with. So unless you think that Kal’s not going to be forced to re-think and reassess his prejudice against lighteyes and that he’s only going to stick to darkeyed women. So far Kaladin as had feelings for/shown interest in two lighteyed women (Laral and Shallan) and one darkeyed women (Tera — not sure of spelling). Considering that thus far Kal has only shown interest in people his own age it’s more likely that he’d be the one who wouldn’t see a older women as possible love interest. Just saying.
As to Jasnah being cold, that I can’t deny that to those outside her family and probably in the eyes of her family as well she comes off as the opposite of warm as fuzzy. But she also someone who cares very deeply and is willing to go to as far as it takes to protect her family.
We know very little of Jasnah in a romantic sense. (Which is actually a good thing, in my opinion. I like that her character isn’t defined by romantic relationships and actually would be completely okay if that continued through later books.)All we know is that she has the good taste to not like Amaram.
And now in a totally cheesy way, let me end this by saying; I don’t think that crossing chasms would be a problem for either a Winderunner or an Elsecaller. ;)
@21: You arguably can’t compare Jasnah and Shallan personality wise. One is considered to be the perfect embodiment of the Alethi lighteyed ideal except in her atheism and her refusal to marry while the other defies all conventions, talks bluntly and everything an Alethi high born woman is supposed to be. Jasnah is dismissive of those below, which does not mean she is incapable of care, simply she is used to her position and she demands to be obeyed which is exactly the kind of attitude Kaladin hates in lighteyes. The expectation, the dismissal, the thought they believe they should be obey because they have rank… Jasnah, despite her numerous qualities, is just that.
I also do not understand why Kaladin needs to be paired with a lighteyed woman in order to overcome his prejudice. The simple fact he has this prejudice should prevent him from finding pretty much any lighteyed woman, with the exception of those falling outside the mold, attractive. Over coming his prejudice implies learning to judge them fairly for their actions and not their eye color. In other words, admit the Kholins are decent people even if they are lighteyes because their actions speak for themselves. However, I doubt he’ll revise his judgement for any individual behaving in what he has come to believe was a despicable lighteyed behavior. Therefore, Jasnah’s coldness, dismissive attitude and demands to be obeyed will most likely not sit well with him. He may come to appreciate her intellect, but I doubt he would ever be interested in her in a romantic way.
There is also the fact I cannot fathom what Jasnah would find interesting in Kaladin.
As for Laral, she was his childhood friend. They grew up together until she was asked to cover her hand. She also is a low born lighteyed, nothing to do with Princess Jasnah.
@@@@@12 Historical weapons martial arts are something I was on the edge of. I mostly trained in karate and judo with some training in Escrima–A Philipino fighting with twin short sticks. However I knew several people in college who loved historical weapons fighting and enjoyed talking about it.
This doesn’t count as a primary resource (although this man does apparently have a school) but here is a video from a youtube personality who does regular discussions on historical weapons.
As far as Kaladin vs. Szeth goes I think there are a number of factors that went into their fights both individually and against each other. People are not characters in a video game where skill and ability are set factors and whoever has the bigger numbers wins.
When it comes to Szeth there are a few things we must remember, the first is that he comes from a country of pacifists. For all the fights he’s won, we don’t know how good of a swordsman Szeth actually is. He wins his fights in large part because of his masterful use of the Three Lashes.
His opponents do not/cannot adjust to this freaky little man sticking to walls or hurling objects at them, and his stormlight enhanced strength and speed. Even when Szeth does get hurt the stormlight heals him. By the time he’s gained a reputation as the “Assassin in White” his victim’s fear gives him even more advantage and makes them less effective against him.
If you gave him a regular shardblade and had him duel someone like Adolin or one of his rivals, it’s highly probably he would lose handily. Kaladin certainly would even if the regular shardblade wasn’t screaming in his head.
When Szeth fought Kaladin things were a bit different. Szeth was rocked mentally and emotionally as soon as he found out Kaladin was a Windrunner. Unlike what Hollywood likes to portray in movies, being scared and angry makes you a much worse fighter, not a better one.
Kaladin is certainly a master spearman. I would be confident in saying he’s a better spearman than Szeth is a swordsman. However, no one, even Kaladin himself, would say he’s all that good with a sword. While there is some transfer of skill switching between handheld edged weapons, Kaladin was not a match with Szeth sword to sword.
He only held his own and got the advantage for the same reason Szeth did it to others–he kept him off balance by doing things that should have been impossible. First he was a proto-radiant then he had a living Shardblade, then it transformed into a spear, then a hammer, oh look he just healed his arm…and by the way his stormlight lasts longer than yours…
Szeth was too emotional and could not adjust before he was killed. Meanwhile Kaladin was fighting with a clear head and a clear since of purpose for the first time in weeks.
@@@@@ 16 STBLST and 19 Gepeto
The Regrowth skill and stormlight healing in general seem to involve little to no direct knowledge of the user. This makes me think Regrowth and the fabrials are just a directed use of the stormlight healing all the surgebinders we have seen so far are able to use.
All the work seems to be done by the stormlight itself. Given Sanderson’s Second Law of Magic, there is one probable answer for the apparent ease and lack of limitations on the ability: absolutely everyone would be dead with anything less. My guess is the Desolations were all mass extinction level crises and the coming one will be just as bad if not worse.
He wouldn’t have built in a magic system that violates one of his own principles so there has to be something(s) on the offing that either negates the healing or goes through people like a wood chipper.
Gepeto @19 – I was thinking specifically of my youngest brother when I said there are real people like that. He’s not, of course, perfect – but he comes close. :) He’s naturally athletic, so that any physical activity he tried came easily. He’s naturally smart, so that with a little studying he got straight A’s in school. He’s naturally musical, so that his warm bass voice supports and blends with almost any group and stands on its own just as easily. He’s good-looking, pleasant, good-humored, and easy-going, so that everyone who meets him likes him. He’s just one of those people. They really exist. Sorry.
@several – FWIW, I don’t think Jasnah will end up in any kind of romantic pairing. There’s a strong indication that something awful happened to her somewhere along the line which has, combined with her personality, shaped her to avoid any kind of physically intimate relationship. Along with that, various things Brandon has said make me think that he’s not going that direction with her. Also, for what little it’s worth, I don’t think Kaladin and Jasnah would make a good pair at all. If he can get past his distrust of lighteyes (now that he is one!), it’s quite possible they could have a fantastic working relationship, and I’d love to see that – but I’d be seriously bummed if it turned romantic.
As far as Stormlight healing goes, I think it may be something involving the Cognitive Realm. It’s like the Stormlight induces a soft reset to the person’s image of themselves as whole. Two examples of this playing out involve Lupin and Kal. When Lupin’s arm grows back at the end, it’s because he always thought of himself as a person with 2 arms. Kal on the other hand has so associated himself as having a Slave brand that no alterations are possible. The ink washes off when he tries to get the Bridge4 tattoo, but holding that same Stormlight cannot get rid of the old scar. Regrowth could simply be the ability to impose that soft reset on non-Radiant associated people.
I love this chapter so much – one of my favorites in the entire book.
The way Shallan and Kaladin’s progress mirror each other (both in how they end up alike and how they end up different) works really well and all the POV jumps run together smoothly.
Syl saying she was with Kaladin even young as a kid: this is a big reason why I think the cracks in a person’s soul that they need for a spren to bond aren’t necessarily tied to specific trauma so much as they’re tied to the reasons why they don’t seem to fit in that well. At least, so far most proto-Radiants definitely seem like the types that break the mold and don’t fit in with the people around them as much.
@Wetlandernw: Ym coming back as a Nalan-zombie would make me so sad :( But that’s an interesting idea, he has those people with him and something seems off about them all so…(shudder)
Okay this is last I’m going to say about this.
No, Kaladin doesn’t have be paired off with a lighteyes to overcome his prejudice and I’m sorry if I made it sound like he did. I made the point that I did because to me it sounded like the point that was trying to be made was that Kaladin couldn’t be a in a realtionship with a lighteyes because he doesn’t like lighteyes. He has shown that his romantic feels don’t actually take the girls eye color into account by his past history.
I actually think you have Jasnah a bit backwards. She’s the one who tells Shallan that power and rank are an illusion. She knows that she’s obeyed because she acts like she expects it. Either way it comes out the same thing, comes off as dismissive. I just think that one paints her as naturally dismissive to others and the other is that a dismissive attitude is projected because that’s what is expected.
As to what either of them would see in the other. Everything that I think about this couple is based on how I think they would interact. Which since they haven’t even met yet is all speculation. But when I joked that I would like to re-cast Pride and Prejudice with Kaladin as Lizzy and Jasnah as Mr Darcy, that’s basically what I’m talking about. I can speculated that Jasnah would be interested in Kaladin because he wouldn’t be able to help himself and treat her as a person not a princess (maybe not right away because like I said, boy has to work though his own prejudices) and Kaladin would interested in her due to her own quiet passion for protecting those she loves. Even in my own mind I don’t see them as falling for each other at first sight or anything like that. If that ever happened it would because because they both have worked through issues that they both have and have grown into a love from a something based in respect first.
No, I don’t think that they would actually get together in book but I like them together. As I said before they are both chronically competent people, who are fierce when it comes to protecting others and they are passionate people. (Kaladin is overtly passionate, where as Jasnah is bit of a dark horse but you don’t throw everything you got into saving the world single handed if you’re not passionate). I just feel like they would make a scary unusual power couple that would throw Alethi society in a tizzy and I like that.
And as I’ve said before when it comes to the actual story line, I’m just as happy with Jasnah not being defined by her romantic relationships, being aromantic or asexual or how ever she wants to be. As for Kaladin, I just hope he doesn’t end up in some love geometric shape. Just find someone who can make you happy you mopey man.
@23: Thank you again for your explanations. It does make sense when you present it this way. Kaladin’s last fight has been hard to comprehend, for me, and I appreciate you shedding some light into it. I do agree we don’t really know how good with his sword Szeth is: we assume he is good (or perhaps it is I who assumed he was good), but he could also be average for all the reasons you mentioned.
It is a good point to highlight Szeth emotional instability. I will pond some more on your words.
I’ll check your reference, seems interesting.
As for regrowth, you have a point… I had not thought of massive destruction weapons. However, there is a part of me you yearned for ti to involve some medical knowledge.
@24: Alright. Point taken, but I swear if Kaladin picks up this flute and starts playing like Mozart: I may scream. I’d also add that, despite being very talented in many areas, Kaladin, at least, is not sympathetic, nor pleasant to be around. Last I checked, I do not think he was described as handsome, but the general assumption is he is. So there. I found an angle. I admit I have been very focus on empowered Kaladin in WoR where I thought he was a bit too much.
Pertaining Jasnah, my understanding of the WoB is similar to yours. I too had the distinct impression Brandon had no plans to involve Jasnah into any romantic relationship. Whereas he did not completely reject the idea (he said he would broach it if it comes relevant), his wordings made me think his outlay did not currently call for it.
However, I do not think they would make a nice pair in a romantic relationship and not simply because she is a lighteyed. Their personality do not seem compatible. I believe Kaladin needs someone more passionate. There is also the fact Jasnah is a cold-blooded assassin who murdered thugs to teach a lesson. If there is any order who would strongly disagree, it is the Windrunners. I thus foresee Kaladin and Jasnah severely clashing on morality aspects.
@26: Syl saying she has always been with Kaladin since childhood bothers me… Didn’t she also say she found him while he was a squad leader in Amaram’s army and it was his endeavor to protect his men that drew her? Both statements are incompatible.
@27: I am sorry but Jasnah is not fierce nor passionate. Being passionate implies displaying strong feelings and Jasnah is barely able to express any feelings at all, which does not mean she does not have them, but she is not passionate… A bit like Renarin who rarely display any emotions. She is not fierce either, she has not displayed any ferocious aggressiveness: she is quite the opposite. Calm, composed, sure of herself, slowly walking towards her goal. I do not get how she read Jasnah as being this protective, fierce, passionate person… it seems as if you are describing Kaladin… I have not seen fire within Jasnah, but I have seemed coldness.
My reading of her is very different: cold, calculated, calm, wise, very careful in her approach, not emphatic. She is very much like Navani, though Navani appears to have warm up with the years.
@Gepeto: If Kaladin had defeated Szeth with both wielding swords, that would have been completely unbelievable. But, quite apart from Kaladin’s own mastery of the spear as a weapon, it appears from both Brandon and Jordan’s worlds that the spear is superior to the sword in single combat. That is, if a spearman and a swordsman met, and both are equally skilled, the spearman will win every time. I don’t know how familiar you are with the Wheel of Time, but Jordan reinforced this messsage twice, first by having the most renowned blademaster of his age be defeated by a farmboy holding a staff (which is similar to a spear in many respects), and having a sick barely-able-to-stand Mat Cauthon defeat TWO swordmasters at the same time with only a staff. I don’t know how realistic that would be in real life, but the spear-will-win-over-sword trope seems to make sense.
@kei_rin and everyone who are discussing the Jasnah/ Kaladin pairing – Oh, this is so interesting. And such a slant to pop culture of having a cougar!!! Though it will be fun to see it, I don’t see Brandon going there simply because there is so much in that kind of relationship, it will be hard to explain in a book that actually has 1,000 pages. A Kaladin/Jasnah pairing will have to be an arc of its own.
But, I will be the first to say that it will be an interesting pairing. With all the prejudices that these two have – Jasnah having had a traumatic experience that made her very wary of men and/or marriage. And Kaladin’s prejudice against lighteyes. This is a scenario which is perfect for romance writers!!!! I can think of many romance writers who can actually take care of this arc. Though I doubt if Brandon will allow it. Hmm….
BTW, IIRC, in the first chapter, Jasnah said something about there was a time when she thought of Amaram as a possible choice of a husband. So, early on, Jasnah was opposed to marriage.
This chapter gave me goosebumps. When I popped in here earlier today and saw it, I actually decided to listen to it once again. It’s great on audio book!!! For those who do not have the audio book, SA has two narrators – Michael Kramer and Kate Reading. Having them alternate every few minutes is a real treat. Michael has Kaladin’s POV and Kate has Shallan’s POV.
And Alice, thank you for pointing out the wind spren. I’ve always wondered where the plate came from. Now, I have an idea although of course, we won’t know until much later if our suspicions are true.
@Gepeto – Kaladin is a very interesting character actually. Of course, I’ll always be an Adolin fan girl. LOL But, since the WoK, I have found Kaladin’s character very dynamic. Though very bright, he is a little bit clueless. That actually was one of the things that endeared him to me. That scene in WoK with Laral was priceless. Kaladin could not understand why Laral who was the best climber he knew was all of a sudden needing help to climb up. LOL Gosh, to be entering puberty and not knowing what to do. He likes a lighteyes girl and he is darkeyed. Talk about something verboten.
That said, it is also the reason why I find the idea of a Jasnah/Kaladin pairing very interesting. We will be entering pop culture territory. Only thing is are we as fantasy fans ready for it? Though I consider myself broadminded, I cannot imagine a cougar relationship in fantasy land. Call me old fashioned! Yet the experimental part of me, the one who likes to break new ground is so excited about the idea. Now, where is Pattern when you need him. He can help figure this out with his cryptic sense. :-)
Hola! Happy to post my thoughts. Like to comment on Shallan. Reveal of her brother’s blade at the end rocked me when I read it. So, she thinks Amaram killed him, when Kal actually did. Whoa! And it’s going to come out at some point that Kal did because Kaladin is so focused on his need to see his justice where Amaram is concerned. Since both Shallan and Kal are Radiants and potentially be working together, once this reveal becomes public, it will effect Shallan and Kal’s working relationship. Whether they become romantic or not, they will have a relationship as Radiants. I’m sure this will effect the stability of the Knights Radiant. Shallan may need support from Adolin. But, Oops! Adolin killed Sadeas! What! Both her potential male counterparts have uncertain futures. I see Shallan having a hard time of it. For that matter, Dalinar is to unite the Radiants? Good Luck! (Of course he will, the whole series is about the return of the Radiants. But what an intriguing read! Eagerly awaiting book three. )
I must say, writing my thoughts is tougher than I thought it would be.
@28
Yeah we are reading the character differently. Although, it has been pointed out to me that my use of the word passionate could be confusing because of the different connotations of that word. I’m using that word in the terms of someone who is driven and determined. A person like that might not be emotive and garrulous but they are passionate in my opinion. Hence my use of the term quiet passion. She is most certainly not someone who I would want to anger or get on her bad side because the revenge that would be coming would not be merciful. She is also someone who knows what she wants is can be forceful to get it. She’ll use the tools available to her to get her goal accomplished. That in my mind makes her someone who is fierce. She might seem calm to others but she’s trying to work out a way to save the world as fast as she can. I would think about her more like a swan swimming on a lake. Looks graceful and calm where others can see, working hard where people don’t notice. Also swans are another creature you don’t want to piss off because they are super mean.
@31
Hola, Jonah! The moment when Shallan realized whose blade that was an “Oh Sh*t” moment for me as well. Then later when Kaladin realizes that she didn’t put the story he told her together with Amaram’s blade and knowing that reveal is still to come— so much tension! I would be biting my nails if I had that habit.
Shallan’s going to *Hate* Kaladin for a while. She not going to go “Oh well we’ve become friends, so it’s okay that you killed my brother to protect Amaram.” Even if she mentally gets it that he was protecting the person who was his lord at the time, she still going to hate him.
@30
Same here. Unless he’s already planed it out that way, it highly unlikely that it would happen. But I’m glad another person can see it the possibility as well.
BTW, I re-checked the prologue where the Jasnah briefly talks about Amaram after meeting him at the feast. It’s Gavilar who’s all for the union. Jasnah thinks to her self “That’ll never happen.” And Amaram makes a quick retreat, I assume because it’s the only tactful thing to do when your friend is trying to set you up with his daughter and neither of you are interested in that.
@@@@@ 33 Kei_rin Considering that she thinks to herself that Amaram was probably just defending himself not long after, I really don’t know how she would feel about Kaladin, but I doubt it would be hate.
Strange? Certainly, but she’s seen enough conflict to know there is a world of difference between murder and self-defense on the battle field. If she can compartmentalize it for Amaram (which I should point out is in no way the same thing as forgiving) she can definitely do at least that much towards Kaladin.
If she is angry with him when she finds out, it will probably be more for not having the guts to come out and tell her the whole truth from the get go just as much as for the deed itself.
That being said, I imagine that she will continue to direct most of her anger at her brother’s death towards Amaram–he was the general in charge of the battle., She might even vent some of that anger towards her brother himself. She has to wonder what was he doing there and why was he off fighting Alethi–and getting himself killed–when he should have been home protecting his siblings form his father…
I highly doubt it, but it might also be that she never finds out the whole truth. I wonder how Syl feels about lies of omission?
The scene in the prologue sounded to me like there was some kind of conflict between Jasnah and Amaram that Gavilar doesn’t know about. Maybe she found out that he isn’t the nice guy he pretends to be and he realized that she knows what he’s really like. Or could he even be Jasnah’s bad experience that makes her wary of men?
@several: If anything, I feel like Kaladin would let the fact he killed Helaran affect their working relationship more than Shallan – we see him react with shock, and it seems like yet another thing Kaladin can beat himself up over (not that he needs more with what’s going to happen but…).
@29: I am familiar with WoT and I do remember the scene where Mat beat Galad with his quarterstaff. However, my thoughts are the time were not the spear is superior, but Galad was underestimating Mat thinking a farmboy with a stick could not possibly defeat him. I felt the lesson here was not “the spear is superior to the sword”, but to treat each opponent as a threat even if they don’t look it.
I do not think the spear is superior to the sword: were Kaladin and Adolin to duel, without the use of Stormlight, without a Nahel bond (no enhance skill, speed, strength and stamina) and without Shards (no Plate, regular weapons), I would not necessarily give the victory to Kaladin. In fact, I do think there is a very good chance Adolin, the master duelist, would win. However this is an unpopular opinion, last time I saw a pool on the matter, everyone claimed Kaladin would win hands down against Adolin… A bit unfair for the “genius with a Blade” as Dalinar calls him: what he lacks in natural talent, he compensate with hard work. I’d say he does have a shot.
I have read commentaries on how the spear was a superior weapon which leaves me doubtful: surely the elite would choose the best weapons for themselves. I makes me believes the “spear if better than sword” trope is tightly linked to the “under-dog” trope. The sword master always is a rich boy and the spear man always is a poor one: it is a classic to make the poor boy win over the rich boy. Rich kids are always depicted in a negative way.
@30: Cougar town!!! I have to admit it does have some appeal. Of the many reasons I do not think Kaladin and Jasnah would work romantically, none of them are age related. There are women in their mid-thirties who settle for an early twenties very mature man and there are young men who prefer older, more mature women than those their age. We are not reinventing the wheel are, but I do agree we seldom read it in fantasy.
However, I do not think Jasnah is the right character to roam through cougar town… She has strongly defined herself outside any romantic relationship. Unlike many commentators, I do not believe she is hiding a dirty secret or a shameful love story. In fact, I do think Jasnah is exactly what she claimed to be: uninterested in the prospect of marriage for exactly the reasons she presented to Shallan, marriage is contriving and limiting. My thoughts are, upon entering into her teen years, she noticed how limited her mother has been in her research due to her unhappy weeding to her father. Her mother, Navani, a very smart woman, who was forced to drop all her work in order to follow her husband. It is clear in book Navani did not have a career as a high profile scholar even if she did have the talent for it: she is suffered by the real scholar namely because she pays for the research. The growing coldness Navani felt in her daughter during these years would therefore be linked to a teenage girl ashamed of her mother lack of professional achievements.
I thus do not believe Jasnah lack of interest in marriage is because she was wounded: she just genuinely does not want to be married. She genuinely wants to dedicate herself to her scholarship without having to compromise for a man.
As for what broke her, my thoughts are simple: atheism. As she grew into rejecting Vorinisn and worst, when she openly state it, she faced a lot of aggression. Surely this was enough for a few cracks to form… Not all Radiants will have heart-breaking stories such as Kaladin.
Speaking of Kaladin: I adore his story arc in WoK. I have little complaints about it. Whatever unease I currently have with him sprouted in WoR, so I do agree with all you have said on that matter.
@32: I agree about your description of Jasnah, but I disagree with your use of the words “passionate” and “fierce”.
Passionate is defined by: showing or caused by strong feelings or a strong belief. Synonyms for passionate are: intense, ardent, fervent, vehement, heated, emotional, heartfelt, eager, excited, animated, spirited, adrenalized, energetic.
None of these readily apply to Jasnah as she is not an emotional person, much like her mother. As you said, determined, strong-willed, driven are some among Jasnah’a qualities, but none are a synonym for passionate. It thus lead me to the theory we have seen two kinds of Kholin: the emotional ones and the thoughtful ones. Whereas Dalinar and Adolin clearly fall within the first category, Jasnah and Renarin fall into the second.
Fierce is defined by: having or displaying an intense or ferocious aggressiveness. or (of a feeling, emotion, or action) showing a heartfelt and powerful intensity. Synonym for fierce are: ferocious, savage, vicious, aggressive, cutthroat, competitive.
None of these apply to Jasnah either. She is strong-willed, but she does not try to enforce her beliefs into anyone. She simply strive to gather as much data as she can before she can lay a theory. She is stubborn, like all Kholins, but not in an aggressive way. A fierce character would be Dalinar as the Blackthorn and to a lesser extend Kaladin. Adolin sure is passionate, but he is not fierce. Elhokar seem to have some of it, but it is unclear with him so I will not advance myself too much.
I understand what you are trying to formulate, but I do not think the terms passionate and fierce are the right words to express it.
@34: Kaladin killing Helaran seems as a smoking gun left out there in order to create drama. I do not think Shallan would held it very long against Kaladin, hence the reason I did not bring this issue in the shipping discussion a few chapters back. It is clear something will happen, but I doubt it will be such a big deal.
@28 & 37: Gepeto: I am sorry but Jasnah is not fierce nor passionate.
Okay, I have to disagree with you. Is Jasnah passionate as in “throwing plates around in anger” – no. So she is not a stereotypical passionate – which you describe above. But she does show “a heartfelt and powerful intensity” for finding the truth about the Voidbringers.
However, her fierce dedication to family and to her research is a very legitimate type of passion & drive.
It is the passion of a scholar. Which does come across as calmer than a heated love affair. But to say it is not fierce or passionate is to discount it. It discounts all the current researchers trying to cure cancer or find other important answers.
We will probably have to agree to disagree on this issue.
Shipping Jasnah:
Honestly I hope we don’t find out Jasnah was raped in the past. Some people are just asexual. No trauma needed. I know a few.
Or we might find out she is gay. Again – I hope she was not raped. Because some people seem to think that lesbians are created when women are raped and never want to touch a man again. Which, again, is not true.
Would a Cougar relationship be fun to see in a great fantasy epic? Yes!!!
Lupin & Jasnah would be funny pairing to read. :-D
“You are a princess? Wonderful. Come meet my cousins. We all can walk on the wall now.”
@38: In fact we will. As I said, the word passionate is defined, by the dictionary, as being linked to strong emotions. It can be used to reference to torrid love affairs, which is not the definition I posted, or to reference an emotion filled dedication. Jasnah is simply not an emotional person. I failed to grasp why you bring about researchers… I failed to see where the link is: one can be a passionate researcher and one can simply be a driven one without any outside display of emotions. A passionate researchers will feed in his emotions into his work: Jasnah does not do that. A dispassionate researchers will simply strive to discover the truth, of how he feels. That is Jasnah. One is not lesser than the other, simply different.
I feel we are mixing determined and passionate. The two words do not have the same meaning and are not synonym. Is Jasnah determined in her research to find the truth? Yes. Did she dedicate her life to these matters? Yes. Does she express strong feelings about her research? No. Does she talk with passion about her research? No. Does it mean she does not care about it? No. I simply means she is not attaching any emotions to her work. It does not prevent her from being driven, determined and strong-willed about it, but it does mean she is not passionate.
I am not inventing anything, the word passion means strong and barely controllable emotion, according to the dictionary. Jasnah has literally no emotions or whatever ones she has, they are very controlled and they remain inside. She is not ardent either about her ideas, she is down to the fact. She believes the truth will speak for itself and it completely uncorrelated to any emotions whatsoever. She is a rational person who hopes people would read her rational way of thoughts and rationally agree with her without letting their emotions cloud their judgment.
I am sorry but I completely, utterly disagree with calling Jasnah passionate. It completely violates the definition of the word. Passionate means feelings, emotions and if there is a character which has not displayed much emotions: it is Jasnah.
As for fierce, the only time Jasnah displayed some level of aggressiveness is when she assassinated those thugs. I do not believe the qualification apply to every day Jasnah. She is more meticulous, calculating and cold-blooded. Fierceness would apply more to passionate execution of thugs, much like Adolin did. That was fierceness and passion. Not Jasnah.
As for being dedicated to her family: she is dedicated to the truth. I have yet to see her express open concern for any of them. She is fond of them, but I have not read anything more than that. When she calls on them, it is to share the truth, because the truth is what matters to Jasnah.
I am flabbergast to read Jasnah now is an emotion-filled, eager, fierce, ferocious, heated, intense individual, but I assume I am doomed to be the dissident one. However, of all conflicts I seem to have created, this may be the worst one. Isn’t there anyone to agree with me here? How can Jasnah even be thought of as an emotional person? And yes, passionate means being emotional.
@34 and @36
That would be great if the issues ended up boiling down to Shallan telling Kaladin he needs to stop beating himself over the head and if this whole thing that we thing would blow up horribly ends up being more a small hiccup in there relationship (friend/otherwise) I’ll breath a giant sigh of relief.
I worry about it though because why Shallan says she gets it, every time she or someone mentions Amaram, she mentally calls him a bastard. I read that as her logically knowing not to hold it against him but emotionally unable to forgive him. But maybe that is because Amaram bragged about his blade and showed no remorse for the man previously wielding it. Maybe it’ll be different because she knows the story of what Kaladin went through when he rejected the blade.
Kal does like to take responsibility for everyone and everything. It’s really quite selfish of him and he must grow out of that habit.
I agree that there is no way Brandon is going to leave this gun on the wall with out firing it.
@35
I think that Jasnah acting as spymaster for her family knows something about Amaram that makes her aware of exactly how much of bastard he is. What that is I don’t know, maybe it’s whatever that Sadas knows that makes him tell Amaram to stop acting all noble because he knows how black his soul really is. I really do think that Jasnah is generally good at reading people in a political sense her data was just out of date when it came to the notes she left behind for Shallan.
@37
Re fighting:
I would hope eventually we could see a Adolin vs. Kaladin practice duel. (I hope they don’t end up on opposite sides of the battle field). Both of them know how to fight in a battle but Adolin has the advantage in a duel because he knows them in a visceral way. If Kaladin can keep his reach away from Adolin with his spear, I think he could wear him down but if Adolin brings it into to close quarters weapons quickly Kal’s going to be in trouble in a duel because that’s when he’d want to pull out a knife if this a battle and I don’t believe that it’s proper form to bring a knife to shard duel. (Did Kal bring a knife to the 4 on 1 shard battle? I forget. I don’t think so.) I still wouldn’t put money on who would win though because they both are good at what they do.
Re Jasnah,
Note the word “or”. Jasnah doesn’t have to show in order to be considered passionate and I do consider her passionate. Though as I’ve said before if you want to use the words determined and driven instead of passionate feel free.
I’ve already said how I see her as a fierce person.
Count me among those who believe that Shallan learning from Kaladin that he was the one who killed Helaran is not going to spoil their relationship. He will relate the battlefield circumstances where Helaran deliberately injected himself into the battle in order to kill Amaram. In the process, he casually killed some of Kaladin’s squad – including the wounded boy. Kaladin had every reason to attack the unknown shardbearer, avenge the deaths, and protect the one to whom he had pledged loyalty. He will, of course, express his sorrow at Shallan’s loss, and point out the irony of having killed the beloved brother of the woman he greatly admires – if not loves, only to be victimized by the man whom he saved and later sought to kill. After the presumed initial shock, Shallan will come to understand that Kaladin had acted properly under the circumstances. She will also come to learn, presumably from the Ghostbloods, what drove Helaran to seek Amaram’s life. Her own history will mitigate the shock of learning who was actually responsible for her brother’s death. After all, her own circumstances back home were such that she felt required to kill both her parents to protect herself and then her brother Balat. She can cry over the fate that lead to such terrible acts and he can join her.
Jasnah needs to be driven by her emotions and to fuel them into her research to be considered passionate. You can’t be passionate without emotions. Again, this is the dictionary meaning of the word. How you feel the word can be interpreted does not make it right. Read the synonyms, not one of them applies to Jasnah. You believe Jasnah’s dedication to her work is passion, but you forget she has not invest one emotion into it. One can be dedicated and passionate and one can be dedicated without being passionate. To make it worst, Jasnah struck as the kind of individual who would frown on emotions, thinking them a hindrance, but this is speculation on my part. She was quite a block of ice when Shallan broke down at the end of WoK. A passionate person would have probably listened, not Jasnah. The truth and only the truth is able to move her, in a rational way, never in an emotional one.
A passionate searcher is one who would emotionally invest itself into his work. A passionate searcher is one who would experience a feeling of sadness or loss when the work they had emotionally invest themselves in is finished. A passionate searcher is not only one who is convinced he is right, he believes he is right and has tied in strong emotions into the lot. It runs deeper than having found the truth, it is feeling he has the truth. Logical reasoning may not convince a passionate searcher they are wrong. There is nothing harder than convincing a passionate searcher their work is wrong, even when crumbled with evidence, they will still have a hard time admitting it because it would require dealing with the emotions tied within. A passionate searcher would consider his work as his baby, his child and would nurture it. Emotions, there always is emotions when passion is involved, be it ideas or beliefs or work.
Jasnah is dedicated to find the truth, but she has not invest any emotion into her work. She sees it as… the truth and she won’t be convinced otherwise because nobody has brought her arguments strong enough to refute her own. Jasnah does not feel she detains the truth, she believes she has enough evidence to claim it such. It is an absolutely emotionless quest.
So again, without emotions, no passion. Jasnah is just not passionate. She is dedicated. Two different words with two different meanings. You can’t change the definition of a word to better fit your perception.
The same goes with fierce, another words tightly linked with emotions. Jasnah does what she does because she believe she is right and she is on a quest to uncover the truth. There is absolutely no emotion involved here.
Sorry but I believe you are twisting the meaning of the words here. Simply because you want Jasnah to be passionate and fierce does not mean she is.
FWIW, I can totally see describing Jasnah as a passionate person. She doesn’t display her passions for all the world to see – unless they know her really well, like her father – but she is definitely passionate. Scholarship, first; given what she’s learned, she’s now passionate about figuring out all she can about the Voidbringers and stopping them. I’d say her appearance in the Epilogue is evidence…
That said, Jasnah can certainly come across as cold and emotionless, particularly to someone like Shallan who is more accustomed to the emotional displays of her own home. She learned to control her own emotions, to some extent, or rather to pretend to different emotions than she felt, but emotional display was always part of the Davar family. IIRC, there are comments about Veden “enthusiasm” vs. Alethi reserve… so we have to realize that we’ve only seen Jasnah through the eyes of someone to whom she naturally seems cold, reserved, and even calculating. That’s why it was so bizarre for Shallan to observe Jasnah’s exhaustion and fear that night on the ship – that’s not “normal” for Jasnah, however much a part of Shallan’s own life it’s been. (Jasnah’s only POV so far is the prologue to this book.)
Addendum to the previous, since I hadn’t seen all the comments yet.
birgit @35 – I’ve wondered, too, if Amaram has something to do with Jasnah’s bad experience, whatever it was. Seems a bit hard to believe he’d try to force anything on her, being who she is, but… I sure get the feeling there’s some antagonism between them, anyway. I suspect it is probably not sexual in nature.
Gepeto @37 – Your understanding of Jasnah and mine do not exactly mesh. I believe you’re insisting too hard on a specific reading of her character and a specific understanding of the word “passionate” which are not universally accepted. Primarily, I believe the difference is that you insist that emotions must be displayed in order to be valid; I believe that Jasnah has all those emotions, but she has great self-control and refuses to show them. I’ll leave it at that.
This chapter is one of the many that I would love to see on the big screen in some way, shape, or form. Kaladin’s sequence in particular would make for a fantastic training montage.
I’m also really impressed at Shallan’s growth here. Her Lightweaving skills are growing just as much as Kaladin’s Windrunner skills, if not more.
Syl’s quote of the week is incredibly frustrating for theorizers: “No. And yes.” yeesh, make up your mind already!
@@@@@ Kaladin and Jasnah – Brandon has said that Jasnah isn’t the type of person to be defined by their romantic interests. Not to say that she would never consider a relationship, but her first concerns are scholarship, working to discover events and information surrounding the Voidbringers and countering them, protecting her family, etc. However you want to define the word passionate, she is most definitely a very driven person.
@@@@@ Helaran – We have it confirmed here that he was the one killed by Kaladin (although there were fans who speculated as such even before WoR was released). Kaladin himself doesn’t find out until spending the highstorm in the chasms with Shallan. Who knows how long until Shallan find outs? I hope that Kaladin will tell her himself when there’s a good opportunity, and that they can work past it and continue to be friends. For the record, I ship Shallan with Adolin – those two are just so cute together, and I do think they can work together fairly well. Not identical, but I believe they have complimentary strengths.
Lastly, the scene with the hundreds of windspren surrounding Kaladin is what first got me thinking they could be the basis for Shardplate. We won’t know until we see newly formed Plate on the page, of course, but windspren Sharplate for the win!
@45: Alice, I do not think our understanding of Jasnah clashes all that much. I agree with most of the commentaries said, though I do think the text at hand depicts a cold and insensitive person. Is it solely linked to Shallan’s perspective? I’ll admit it is a possibility, but without more POV from Jasnah, I cannot refute my actual understanding. This is probably where we disagree, though I do not reject the possibility future chapters may change that perspective.
I also disagree the specific word passionate can linguistically used to describe her behavior, as we see it in both books.
As for Jasnah and her past… I personally would hate if we find out she was raped or heartbroken or homosexual, especially if it becomes the reason she chose not to marry. I believe Jasnah is a stronger character if she chose, for herself, to dedicate her life to her research without any hidden skeleton. I want her to have make that choice for herself and not because of a sad background story. I do not want to end up believing she would have chose the married life had she not been raped, heartbroken or homosexual. Brandon’s comments on the matter leads me to believe I will not be deceived. I thus doubt her past hides anything relating to romantic relationships.
@46: I am a strong Shallan/Adolin shipper, but I also agree the Helaran event is not what would prevent Shallan/Kaladin from happening.
I came to say things and found that @Wetlandernw had said what I was thinking off. Thanks Wetlander. :)
And my fingers keep typing:
@43
I would say that you cleaving a bit much to the reading of Jasnah as emotionless. Like Wetlander said we don’t get much in her POV. I would also like to point out that control of emotion isn’t the same the lack of emotion.
Though I will say that the research that you described isn’t what I would call a passionate researcher. It’s what I would call a pig-headed researcher. No researcher that I know would feel that is being passionate about your research. Researchers get proven wrong and re-work theories and throw themselves into questions and answers and more questions all the time. If you are only trying to find the answers that agree with you, your doing it wrong. If you got that data that says that current area of investigation is leading to a dead end, you start thinking about where you will go after that. Not bang your head against a wall.
I disagree with you that Jasnah hasn’t put her emotion into her work. I believe Shallan hasn’t seen her do so or in cared to see her do so. Once again you don’t try to save the world if you don’t emotionally care about the world. That just doesn’t make sense. Shallan has described Jasnah as a robot and I don’t trust Shallan’s description of her so I look for the ties that would make Jasnah throw herself into her work. Namely her family.
If you believe that she is emotionless, we are never going to agree. Jasnah is as human as the other characters. To me that means she has emotions and those emotions will be one of the bases for her actions. For Jasnah in particular she will also logical reasons for her actions, which is what she will allow others to see, but doesn’t mean that the emotional connection isn’t there. To deny that is to deny that she is human.
You could say that she isn’t emotive enough for her to count as passionate for you. To that I would say, fair point- it’s a qualitative issues that every person will have a different point of view on but don’t try to tell me she has no emotions.
And I keep forgetting to say @38
Jasnah and Lopen would be pretty funny. I can see it now. Jasnah bemused and bewildered by Lopen, only to charmed by him later. Or for it turn to annoyance and her constantly faceplaming at his antics almost constantly, till others are worried about brain damage.
Since we seem to be in a mode of making matches, let me introduce a wild one: Jasnah and Amaram. Yes, I know that Jasnah had rejected her father’s attempt at such matchmaking. Yet, this charismatic head of the Kholin clan considered it a suitable pairing despite some obvious differences, i.e., religion. Consider the following:
Both were close to Gavilar. Both are scholars with an avid interest in the history of Roshar. Both are independent minded (Amaram has, apparently, taught himself the arcane science of forecasting highstorms that is viewed with suspicion in Vorin lands, while Jasnah is a heretic). Both are swayed by reasoning rather than emotion. Both are rather ruthless if some alleged higher interest is involved. Jasnah has, apparently, arranged assassinations in the interest of protecting her family, had been prepared to have her sister-in-law killed, and deliberately killed those 4 assailants as a lesson for her young ward, Shallan. Amaram had Kaladin’s surviving squad members killed in order to cover up the means of acquisition of Helaran’s shard equipment. While the latter act is clearly unjustifiable and shows base ingratitude, he is driven by some supposed ideal of returning the Radiants (or Heralds) to save mankind and to bring them under the Vorin religion. Of course, religion would be a big point of contention between these two. Yet, the dramatic events unfolding on Roshar may change their perspectives. As it stands at the end of WOR, Amaram is the one closest to Talenelat (Taln) who may yet play a pivotal role in fighting the Voidbringers. Of course, such wild speculation assumes that Amaram won’t be soon killed by either the Ghostbloods or Kaladin. He is probably safe from Kaladin who now appreciates that Amaram’s evil act was out of some misguided ideology rather than viciousness and greed.
@49 STBLST- I don’t think Amaram is a good fit for Jasnah. For me, the end does not justify the means. What Amaram did to Kaladin and his men are unforgivable. They saved his life, he is their commanding officer. That is betrayal to the nth degree. And it is just for the greed of a shard blade and plate.
True, everyone among the main characters have bloods in their hands. But what Amaram did cannot be explained as the end justifying the means. It is just plain wrong. It’s the same way with Moash, though he did not do the deed. It was treason, twice over for Moash. Kaladin gave him the blade and made him 3rd dahn and what does Moash do? He was willing to kill Kaladin. He was also hired to guard the King. And what does he do? Arrange for his assassination.
As for relationships, I would rather have Jasnah and Kaladin. It’s a cougar relationship but I think it will be fun. :-)
Just not Amaram. He makes my blood curl because of what he did to Kaladin and his men.
@@@@@ Helaran: Do we have any theories regarding him and the Skybreaker order of KR? Hoid mentioned a connection of some kind in some flashback or another. Also, that flashback indicates that the re-emergence of Surgebinding is not a new thing. It’s been going on long enough for there to be a recognizable order of knights 5 (?) years in the past.
Gepeto – “I also disagree the specific word passionate can linguistically used to describe her behavior, as we see it in both books.”
I didn’t say it described her behavior. I said it described her. There’s a difference. Just because she seems almost inhumanly self-controlled doesn’t mean she’s without emotion or passion. She just doesn’t allow people to see it.
Re: what might have happened to her in the past… is it possible that someone she cared about – friend or protege, not love interest – was mugged and murdered in much the same fashion as the MO of the thugs in Kharbranth, and that at the time she was unable to do anything about it, and had to simply watch helplessly? (We haven’t heard about any family members missing, hence the friend or protege guess.) That might give her the incentive to create the lesson she provides for Shallan.
@49
Jasnah and Amaram as a couple…. I have the same feeling as sheiglagh about just instinctively hating Amaram. Also Jasnah’s own “That would never happen,” make it harder for me to see that pairing happening. Although, if there was no other choice in a political situation I could see that might happen. The shit would really have to hit the fan though before things got bad enough that they would actually be viable as an option, IMO.
If they were a pairing, I feel like they would be another scary pairing because of the length they would be willing to go to obtain their goals. I’m not sure where Jasnah’s moral line stops and what she might count as too high a cost but I feel like I do for Amaram and I don’t like it.
Jasnah is a great character! I enjoy reading about her! So far, we’ve really only seen her through Shallan’s perspective (yes, the prologue, I remember, but that was one chapter so loooong ago!) I do hope she gets a flashback book. She’s strong, opinionated, confident, but also caring and open minded. However, she’s also got a dark side and it’s scary. In my opinion, Jasnah won’t ever be romantically paired with anyone. She loved her father, and is mother/ mentor to Shallan, but seems to have closed her heart to any other possibilities.
The way she paired Shallan and Adolin is interesting. She did it to keep Shallan near her once she realized Shallan’s Radiant potential. Jasnah gave Shallan political reasons for the match. But she also asked Shallan if she was ok with the betrothal. Then, if my memory is good, Jasnah speaks of herself not needing a marriage. My interpretation was that Jasnah doesn’t want to be married or involved with anyone. Jasnah, to me, is very analytical and may objectively see good matches for others, but has closed herself from ever being available to anyone.
I do think past events have influenced her closure. Speculate I may! But I look forward to how it will all unfold..
This is a controversial chapter, because the Kaladin-Syl conversation appears to directly contradict a later chapter in the book. If someone has innate talent, then they are highly competent with regular tools; they are just amazingly better with the better tools. Kaladin becomes incompetent with the spear when Syl briefly leaves. This suggests that Kaladin is right and Syl is wrong.
@48: I will drop the issue, because clearly this is going in circle, but sorry folks, Jasnah is not an emotional person. She is a rational one.
Your last post has underlined you are clearly not making the distinction between an emotionally driven person and a rationally driven one. Emotionally driven person will behave exactly as I stated because it is stronger then themselves. The best of them may have enough control to avoid it making too much if a fuss about it, but it still would be their natural reaction. You keep mentioning searchers… The fact remains there are not many emotionally driven persons into research, they tend to chose other career paths and those you would find there typically are lesser ones, dwelling towards the thinkers. However, of course, I assume the small group of searchers you happened to know constitute a valid sample to make large scale predictions as to the behavior of most. As for my own sources, go read on the MBTI and the percentage of a few given types into a few research oriented careers, you will find very little F individuals in there. There are some, but not many. I would also point out to describe them as pig-headed searchers is really… mean towards those who actually care so much about their work they do feel sadness, loss and yes even anger if their work goes wrong. Some even go into depression for putting too much emotion into their work. They can be very competent, but they have a weakness.
You are the one extrapolating in stating you are looking for the ties in Jasnah’s work. Yes you can want to save the world without being passionate: not everyone needs an emotion to drive them forward. However, since it violates your own conception of a “savior” you attributed characteristics to Jasnah she has not exhibit. There is no evidence Jasnah is passionate or emotional or anything else than Shallan as depicted: an emotionless robot. By this I do not mean she has no emotions, simply whatever emotions she has are tied within, which is the exact opposite of a passionate person. A passionate person will express those emotions: it will shine through their work. Jasnah hardly ever express emotions, whether she feels them or not is beyond the point: she does not let them interfere with her task. She therefore is not an emotional person and not a passionate one. A passionate person will put too much heart into it and by genuinely hurt at seeing its work being render obsolete. If she were a passionate person, yes, Shallan would have seen some of these emotions, but there were none.
There is no indication whatsoever her emotions are the basis of her work. This is pure fabrication. Imo, it could be future POV from Jasnah will disapprove me, but as of now, we do not have written proof of this. I went an re-read the epilogue and it still does constitute proof. She seemed more driven and determined than passionate. Her reason to pursue her quest is not an emotional one, but a rational one: she does not need to feel to want to stop the Voidbringer! She simply needs to be a decent human being with the means to make a difference. It is also the reason she can’t comprehend God, she can’t figure out why people would have faith without solid proof.
For me, a passionate person needs to be a feeler on the MBTI chart. Jasnah is a very strong thinker and not a feeler. Therefore, she can’t be passionate. And whereas all humans will have emotions, not all of them will let them interact with their professional work.
As for Jasnah being emotive, it is not a matter of not thinking her emotive enough, it is a matter of her not being an emotive person. She is just not an emotionally driven person. I invite you to go read on INTJ personality which befits Jasnah best. I also invite you to go talk to a few of the individuals having this personality type: you will immediately get the difference between an emotive person and one who isn’t. Everything in Jasnah way of interacting with others is typical of INTJ individuals and yes Shallan’s perception is valid as she is interacting with Jasnah. Again none of it means she has no emotions, it means they are not her driving source. She does not pursue her research because she feels about it, but because she disapprove most written research and want to find the truth. Again, very, very INTJ. These folks will hunt the truth like hacks and may appear passionate, but it is a completely emotionless quest. They simply want the facts straight because they like them to be this way. There is a cold dedication to them and they are often described as being… heartless, which does not mean they are, but they do come out this way to others. Again, Shallan’s perception. They also don’t need any underlining emotions to drive them forward, they simply need to not have find all the truth and keep looking. However, this is not passion, but determination and dedication.
Again, the term passion is linked to emotions and someone who refuses to let them interfere with their work is not a passionate person. A passionate person can’t help it: it just pours in even despite their best judgment.
Re: sword vs. spear. A couple of comments:
1. Actually, the scene in WoT with Mat, Gawyn, and Galad and the story told by the instructor afterward are with the _quarterstaff_, not the spear. Later, when Mat fights with his ashandarei (basically a fancy short spear, in case there are any non-WoT readers here), it’s specifically mentioned that he bring the use of the blade into his quarterstaff fighting style as if he’d been doing it his entire life. (Which he had, sort of—WoT people will know what I mean!) Now, the spears used by the Aiel in WoT and by Kaladin here are short spears; essentially quarterstaffs with one bladed end, so that tracks.
2. Another source of the idea that quarterstaff > sword can be deduced from one of Heinlein’s old works (I think it’s Glory Road, but it’s been a very long time since I’ve read it), where he has his first-person narrator say something like “karate can beat any weapon except a quarterstaff.”
I’ll leave it to the martial artists in the group to the validity of the claim. I never proceeded far enough in them to have real knowledge. (Although I did briefly train with a ninth-degree black belt—he was an adjunct professor at my university and taught a Phys. Ed. course.)
@@@@@ Gepeto and bad_platypus
Officers and noblemen used swords partly as a status symbol–they were more expensive to produce and maintain relative to a spear and partly because they could, with repeated strikes damage or destroy a pole arm. (That being said if the swordsman was unarmored that would actually be a stupid thing to do, because then the spearman would actually have two very sharp, pointy sticks to attack him with instead of just one
That being said a sword was/is not a better weapon than the spear or vice versa. The spear is easier to learn, and the average, able-bodied man could be trained into a competent spearman in less time than it would take to become a good–let alone master–swordsman.
As far as a one-on-one duel between Kaladin and Adolin goes? That’s a bit more complicated than first blush because of the nature of their specific weapons. Adolin is a better duelist than Kaladin because that’s his chosen focus in life whereas Kaladin is a battlefield trained spearman–the techniques and strategies are different.
Despite that, for safety reasons almost any type of sparring duel the two would be willing to compete against each other in would be massively and unfairly set up in Kaladin’s favor. Here are a few ways it could go down:
1. Kaladin and Adolin fight unarmored and use practice blades one the size of a shard blade the other the size of a standard spear. Kaladin still has a slight edge in reach, Adolin’s fake blade cant cut through his spear–one of the few ways for a swordsman to beat a spearman and Kaladin has an edge in speed because of the weight of the practice blade relative to his own spear. Kaladin wins. It doesn’t matter if Adolin has more technique, he can’t get inside Kaladin’s guard and Kaladin can thrust his spear faster than Adolin can block.
2. They use shardblades and plate (in this scenario Kaladin borrows plate and convinces Syl somehow to spar as a Shardspear). Even if Syl doesn’t change size or shape, the same advantage of reach still applies, and again Adolin can’t cut throught the spear because as far as we know shardblades of all kinds are virtually indestructible. The other way to defeat a spear–trying to grab it–might work, but Kaladin is definitely experienced enough to know this trick and compensate, plus trying to grab a shardblade is just plain stupid. Adoliln wouldn’t want to do something that could leave him crippled for life just to win a sparring match.
The only scenario I can think of that would accurately gauge their relative skills is a match where Kaladin used a standard spear and Adolin used a normal steel sword with a live edge neither with shardplate. In that scenario I do think Adolin would probably win. However, someone would get cut and neither would willing to take that kind of match against the other for exactly that reason.
Any other type of match is basically two guys fighting with sticks, and in every one of them Kaladin has the longer and lighter stick. He may not be as good as Adolin overall, but is is good enough that he can keep Adolin from ever getting close enough to actually hit him.
So you’re telling me that as an INTJ, I have no emotions? Thanks.
@@@@@ 58 & 59: agree to disagree. Limits of internet communication showing.
Alice, we know you have lots of emotions. And we are happy you share them with us.
Other topic: Amaram’s writing style. Anyone else both interested in how he is using the glyphs?
Yet still saddened that by using them he could lose the respect of others? General’s can’t be stormwardens. So who / what set him on this path?
Props to Shallan for figuring out his system so quickly, without Pattern pointing it out.
Skyeel doesn’t fear falling.
Anyone want to speculate on what a skyeel looks like?
@59: Alice, please. I apologize if I have offended you, but please do not misquote me simply because our disagreement makes you angry. I understand being an INTJ you probably strongly identify yourself to Jasnah which is probably why you are currently taking my claim on a personal level. You shouldn’t. I have by no way attack INTJ individuals. I have a lot of respect for INTJ intellectual capacities and ability to see beyond the scope of written studies, but I will admit being their near polar opposite which makes it difficult for me to make an argumentation they would approve of. It is evidenced by my persisting lack of capacity to convince anyone, whatever the argument is.
However, I have not said INTJ were emotionless, I have said they are often perceived as such which is not the same thing.
Here is what I said:
By this I do not mean she has no emotions, simply whatever emotions she has are tied within, which is the exact opposite of a passionate person
…
Again none of it means she has no emotions, it means they are not her driving source.
…
There is a cold dedication to them and they are often described as being… heartless, which does not mean they are, but they do come out this way to others.
Feelers, especially extroverted feelers, will perceived INTJ as emotionless because, when compared to themselves, they are. This very argument has been brought forward to dismiss Shallan’s perception of Jasnah. However, it works both ways. Shallan’s observations are what convinced me Jasnah indeed was an INTJ, therefore not an emotional person. However those types are not clean-cut: some T people are close to the F spectrum and can behave as a feeler in certain situations. However, Jasnah level of rationality has me put her as a very strong T, which is perhaps wrong. Future will tell me. There is not enough evidence here for me to refute my thinking.
I simply do not consider Jasnah to be an emotionally driven person. I consider Jasnash to be an intellectually driven person. I have furnished ample proof to support my claim. I have found no textual evidence Jasnah is pursuing an emotion-filled research as being passionate would imply. I have found no textual evidence she has fueled any emotion into it. I have found no textual evidence she can be defined as any synonym used for the word passionate as per the dictionary.
Nobody has brought forward arguments strong enough for me to dispute this. I do believe people are confounding the words determined with passionate, which may appear similar, but aren’t.
However, as @60 pointed, I do agree to disagree. Please, no hard feelings.
@58: This is impressive… thanks for your inputs, though I have a few thoughts.
1. Why would Adolin fight with a false Shardblade the size of one? Regular swords are supposed to be much heavier, so a regular sword shaped as a Shardblade would be nearly unyielding. Poor Adolin’s arm would be dead before the fight even started… I agree he stands no chance there.
2. Adolin surely is more apt than Kaladin moving with a Plate. The Plate would be difficult for Kaladin because he is not trained for it. I would not discount Adolin this readily. He is a resourceful duelist, he is inventive and quite the strategist. Even if Kaladin has an edge due to his reach, Adolin probably stands a chance, though I agree he would not try to grab the spear unless he was convinced his Plate could take the hit.
3. I agree someone would get cut, badly, though I think we should not dismiss the fact Adolin has probably not practiced with a regular sword in years… They are heavier. Will it slow him? Will have the same stamina with a heavier weapon?
Gepeto – you’ve argued repeatedly that Jasnah is not a passionate person, and you followed that by saying that she’s totally an INTJ as if that proves your point. I’m just saying that as an INTJ, I can absolutely state that we can be, and often are, passionate people. Just because we can control and direct our emotions (and Jasnah in particular, as the daughter of a society that teaches reserve as a virtue, has great self-control), that does not prevent us from being passionate people. We just don’t show it to anyone and everyone.
Thus far, we have primarily seen Jasnah through Shallan’s eyes (and Shallan is the daughter of a society which values expressiveness); on that limited basis, it’s hardly valid to insist that Jasnah cannot be passionate. All you can say definitively is that we haven’t seen that side of her displayed in much detail. For those of us who relate to her more directly, it’s easy enough to pick up hints of a deeper passion. We perceive characters in books much the way we perceive other people – especially the ones we “meet” on the internet – through our own experience and personality. I read Jasnah very differently than you do.
Since it’s not written yet, it’s possible that in the future books Jasnah will turn out to be as cold as you think her. Or she may turn out to be far deeper than you give her credit for. The point is, you have no basis to insist that she is totally and only the way you perceive her to be. That’s all I’m saying.
@62 Gepeto
Sorry let me clear something up-my point was the setups that would be available to them due to available materials to spar with were specifically not fair to one or the other in regards to an accurate demonstration of each’s abilities in a normal battle.
However, when I said practice blade, I meant wood not metal. In Adolin’s case, a practice shard blade would probably be a long relative flat piece of wood tapered at one end shaped similar to a paddle or a cricket back. It would be heavy, but not as bad as you’re thinking. It would definitely be heavy enough to give Kaladin an unfair advantage of speed with his spear.
You do have a point about the Shardplate, but I also wonder if Kaladin wouldn’t feel more at home in it than the average Joe simply because he is used to fighting with Stormlight which gives him similar increases in movement speed. In any case, Adolin would probably let Kaladin practice in plate a few times before they had an actual match.
The second scenario is one where Adolin could theoretically win yes. However, Kaladin necessarily has more experience defending himself against enemy swordsmen (he’s done it in previous battles) than Adolin does against a spearman whose weapon he can’t actually damage ( Kaladin himself is in all probability the only man in the world who currently enjoys that advantage). That’s the best way for a swordsman to beat a spearman in real life so again, unfair advantage to Kaladin.
As far as a real sword, Adolin shouldn’t have any trouble wielding one. They aren’t nearly as heavy as Hollywood makes them look. Hand and a half swords in particular are quite manageable. The iron fire poker Dalinar wielded in his WoK vision is actually quite a bit heavier. But again, neither man would risk gutting the other just to have a sparring match.
In any case I do imagine we will get future scenes of them training together somehow. Considering their working relationship, it wouldn’t make sense for them not to.
Will the real post 66 please stand up? I’ve just noticed that there is double post but I’ve edited this one for grammer and a some new insight I had about a character not Jasnah.
@Gepeto – It’s been a while since I looked at the MBTI so I took the so politely worded invite and refreshed my memory of INTJ in particular. I’m still not buying that Jasnah being an INTJ person can’t be passionate about her work. All I think you could say that she is protective of her feelings and her passions and not likely to express them to others until she is sure of them herself. Which is true. She didn’t start tell people that the Parshendi were possibly the Voidbringers until she had the proof from past sources to back her up.
Textually, I would say re-read the prologue where Galvlar dies. Jasnah is very similar to Shallan in that when she becomes overwhelmed by emotions she throws herself into scholarship. When the Parshendi are telling her that they killed her father, she more or less mentally yells at herself to “stop thinking like a scholar”. For Jasnah this is emotions getting in the way of her ability to reason. She’s getting off topic because her emotions are kicking her into scholar mode when she needs to be think about the situation at hand. When Jasnah plunges into the whole mystery of the assassin who can walk on walls, it isn’t described as calm scholarly effort to find the truth but as a “frenzied effort to distract her from what she had lost”. I read this as Jasnah directing her emotions into her studies.
From that point one when we allowed glimpses into Jasnah’s emotions they are chiefly of worry and anxiety. Not exactly happy emotions. Even Shallan see it when they are on the ship, Jasnah had worked herself to the point where Exhusstionspren where spinning around her. I can’t believe that she would be overjoyed every time she found something new to prove her theories correct so I wouldn’t expect her to jump for joy while doing her research but I do think those emotions would be feed into her desire/passion to work and figure out what going on so that she could fight it.
Side note: Okay, just one last thing about the Thinker people and researchers. According you I should be surrounded by Thinking people given as I work as a researcher in a research lab and did my Masters in Science at a research oriented school but I’ve never bothered to ask where my colleagues and friends fall on the MBTI board. So I don’t know if I’m just surrounded by those particular Feeling researcher that are less common. Who knows maybe this a lowered my bar for what it takes for me to count someone as a Feeling person. But I do know this, I’m sure that if they read what you originally described a passionate researcher, my limited sample set would not agree with you. Someone who continues to think they are right even when faced with evidence that they are wrong isn’t doing research, they’re just trying to prove themselves right.
I will admit this is a based on a personal bias but your description of a passionate researcher was actually kinda insulting to me and did not match any off the passionate researchers I’ve seen and worked with. The researchers that I know, the good ones, might get sad when something goes wrong but they get more curious and ask more questions than anything else.
Relating this side note back to the topic at hand, namely Jasnah. If you want someone who is passionate about there research look at there notes. Jasnah takes great notes about everything. I would definitely count her as someone who passionate about it. Her notes are well organized and she does good up keeping for her personal notes. That’s a sign to me that someone loves there work.
I’ve just realized I have something to admire Amaram for. He actually takes notes and seems to do a decent job keep them in order. It’s even a bit more impressive in his case because presumably women like Jasnah and Shallan have someone to teach the art of note taking, Amaram would have to figure out a way to do it for himself because he can’t ask others.
Though as Shallan would say; He’s still a bastard.
Personally I think Jasnah is very passionate: her whole reason for pursuing the truth about Voidbringers was that it was something she discovered as she searched for the truth on how Szeth was able to do what he did. Was it a mystery to solve? Yes. Was it something for her to latch onto in desperation after she saw her failure to protect her family, something she was as devoted to as anyone else we’ve seen in this series? Also yes. Jasnah strikes me as having a deep emotional well that she hides deep down – the prologue certainly didn’t seem to lack discussing how she felt at points.
But that’s just me, mileage may vary as we’ve seen.
Adolin versus Kaladin: That would be neat to see. I get the feeling there would need to be a weird new form of sparring though: Adolin in Plate while Kaladin has a limited number of spheres to draw from, and Kaladin would need to keep Syl in one form so they could slide those protectors onto her (or maybe the protector would change to always fit her). If they spar unpowered it might even out: Adolin would have the disadvantage but he knows it and is more experienced in duels, so it would be a test of whether Kaladin could wear him out/defeat him before Adolin finds a way in his reach.
And late to mention this, but shipping Kaladin and Jasnah seems interesting…but really I just want to see them interact. They both have abrasive personalities which would be interesting to see interact.
@60Braid_Tug: I wonder if Gavilar was the one who set Amaram on his path to learning the Stormwarden script – there was definitely something up between those two besides Gavilar trying to pair his daughter with Amaram. Either that or maybe Amaram had to turn to that because of Gavilar’s death: Amaram wouldn’t have the same resources and on his own maybe it was easier for him to get help from the Stormwardens.
We don’t know how Dalinar’s wife died. Maybe Amaram had something to do with that?
There was a picture of skyeels in the books:
The stormwarden script is similar to how Japanese syllabaries were developed: Chinese characters were used phonetically to write Japanese words. This was called manyōgana after the poetry collection manyōshu which was partially written that way. Later the phonetically used characters were simplified in two different ways, leading to the two syllabaries: Katakana used part of the character, while hiragana were characters written in grass style.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Man'y%C5%8Dgana
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Katakana
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hiragana
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cursive_script_%28East_Asia%29
The comment box again lacks icons for inserting pictures and links in 3 different browsers.
@63: As I have said, I have agreed to disagree. Until further textual evidence can be brought forward, I will maintain my position. I have no desire to continue this discussion. Again, no hard feelings.
@66: Brandishing your diplomas and your wonderful research lab still does not make a valid argumentation, especially since you do not know what personality type your co-workers have. Am I supposed to take you for the authority on the matter simply because you claim to know individuals who do not fit within the canvas I have established for my perception of what a passionate person should be? What if my own personal experience tells me otherwise, should I brag about my own qualifications and my own work environment in order to fuel my own argumentation? The fact is our real life small subset of individuals are not large enough to draw large scale assumptions. It is why personal experience tend to make poor arguments in a conversation.
As for F types and research, other researches have established F type individuals tend to do less well as school and are less inclined to chose research oriented career. Does it mean they can’t? Absolutely not. Should F type feel offended? Nope. It only means if we were to make an average out of thousand of individuals, the majority would fall within a category. For instance, there are more INTJ and ESTJ individuals into engineering than ESFJ. Does it mean a ESFJ can’t be an engineer? Absolutely not, but it means most of them would chose not to.
As for what I have said, I believe you are misquoting me. I have said:
A passionate searcher is not only one who is convinced he is right, he believes he is right and has tied in strong emotions into the lot. It runs deeper than having found the truth, it is feeling he has the truth. Logical reasoning may not convince a passionate searcher they are wrong. There is nothing harder than convincing a passionate searcher their work is wrong, even when crumbled with evidence, they will still have a hard time admitting it because it would require dealing with the emotions tied within.
Which does not mean:
Someone who continues to think they are right even when faced with evidence that they are wrong isn’t doing research, they’re just trying to prove themselves right.
It means:
It is harder for for them to accept the truth because they would need to fight their emotional response on top of admitting they were wrong, which is something most people struggle with. They are harder to convince.
Again, I do not wish to continue this discussion. Agree to disagree with me and let’s move on.
@64: I was indeed imagining a full metal sharbalde which would have been very heavy… a lot heavier than anything Adolin is used to yield. Surely it would have impacted his reflexes.
I think the Plate works differently than stormlight. After all, you can crush your water canister if you are not careful whereas I doubt the same would happen with stormlight. I do not know how much at east Kaladin would feel, but mastering the Plate appears to take some time. Adolin comments on how Salinor is not used to his Plate enough to perform a certain movement.
As for the real sword, I was not referencing to Hollywood, but to Adolin’s own POV where he states yielding Shardblade is the equivalent of “too light swordplay”. Zahel also explained how the regular swords are heavier than the Shardblades. In that optic, I wonder how someone like Adolin, who has presumably not practiced with regular swords for most of his teen years and all of his young adult years would feel a suddenly being forced to fight with a regular sword. I mean, most of physical and muscular growth happen during those years. So how being made a full shardbearer as a teenager has influenced Adolin’s? I honestly have no idea, but I have wondered if he wouldn’t struggle some by going back to a regular sword for this specific reason.
I am still puzzled by the idea the spear may be the better weapon… What’s the use of a swordsman then? Why would knights and nobility rely on a weaker weapon? This does not make sense to me…
@68: What makes you think Amaram is responsible for Shshshsh’s death? It would be an interesting plot point if he did…
@68 birgit – Thanks. for the info. :-)
@FenrirMoridin and everyone talking about a Kaladin/Adolin duel. Wow!!! It will be great to see. It will be like watching Cloud and Tidus from Final Fantasy in a duel, albeit both characters are using swords.
Or perhaps, speaking of Final Fantasy X, it will be like Tidus and Khimari in a duel using their ultimate weapons. Tidus wields a sword while Khimari who is much taller and bigger than Tidus uses a spear.
@Gepeto I agree to disagree with you where it comes to Jasnah.
I as also wanted to say, that I did not mean to misquote you but truly did misunderstand what your main point to be when you originally were talking about people who are passionate about their research.
Further clarification (feel free to ignore): Bring up my own background was more to explain my personal bias and to state that while I might not know personality types I know the type of people who normally work and dedicate themselves to research work. For me, I’m more likely to base my opinions on the subgroup of people who I know and respect, regardless of where they fall in personality type. I was not trying to say that my co-works/colleagues where outside the norm of personality profiles (in fact I would suspect that most would fall in the expected norms), but that it doesn’t matter where they fell on the scale of personality profiles. The point I was trying to make is that a personality profile was not the deciding factor about a person decision to work in a particular field or their passion for that work. I will grant you a persons personality will effect how they react to failure or perceived threats to their work. Which I now think is the point you where trying to make.
@68: Thanks for the reminder about the skyeel picture. Still wondering about how a creature with wings like that flies.
I’m not a video game player, but one based on this world would be cool to see.
Regular shard holders vs. KR – imagine the possibilities. :-)
@72 Braid_Tug
Here’s Cloud Strife with his sword
Here’s Tidus
Here’s Khimari. He is the one in the middle with a spear
@@@@@ Gepeto
A metal sword designed to look like a shard blade would be nearly 200 cm long pommel to tip, 30 cm wide along the blade and around 8 cm thick at the spine. It could weigh well over 100 kg depending on the metal(s) used, probably a great deal more.
There’s no way Adolin could use it at all unless he was wearing his full Shardplate. (Truthfully it would probably just snap at the hilt under its own weight the moment someone tried to pick it up plate or no).
A real Hand and a half sword only weighs about 1.5 kg. give or take. Heavier than a shardblade maybe, but Adolin is an athlete who has trained in and out of plate in multiple roles within his father’s military. He certainly shouldn’t have any trouble with that.
There’s no such thing as a perfect weapon, and a sword isn’t necessarily a weaker weapon than a spear. It’s just less practical for infantry. Swords were much more expensive to manufacture, and a swordsman takes more time to train because sword forms are more precise and edge alignment dictates whether a blow is a killing one, stings a bit without doing any actual damage, or actually breaks your own sword.
A swordsman can beat a spearman by getting inside his reach or using his sword to destroy the spear via repeated strikes to the shaft. A good spearman can keep a swordsman from getting close to him, and Kaladin is definitely a good spearman. That just leaves breaking his weapon.
I said most sparring matches would be unfair towards Adolin because a wooden practice sword could not reliably destroy a wooden practice spear and Syl as a shardspear cant be destroyed period.Therefore, the strategies he would normally employ to beat a spearman in a battle wouldn’t work for him in a friendly sparring match against Kaladin.
@74: Oh. I had not idea how much weighted a real sword versus a Blade… I was under the impression one was about 10kg while the other was about 20kg. If the difference is only 1.5kg, then I agree it would not make much difference. In my head it was much more than that, hence my questioning.
I still seems to me one would prefer being a good spearman versus a good swordsman… It seems, when faced with a good spearman, a swordsman always is at a disadvantage. If a swordsman only defense against a spearman is to break his weapon and if a good spearman is able to prevent this from happening, then is seems preferable to be one as opposed to the other. So why chose a sword?
@Gepeto – Military life is strange and it gets more strange when you are living it.
to answer your question of why use a sword, for starters, let us look into the 21st century U.S. Military simply because they are the ones I know. Enlisted soldiers, marines, navy and air force are trained to use automatic weapons. Most of the time they are trained to use M16 and/or AK47 (it’s a Russian weapon but used in many war zones across the globe). And they carry these weapons when they are on the field.
Meanwhile, officers, usually the high ranking ones are issued hand guns or side arms. Their range is limited and you need to be more accurate. Although these offiicers are also trained to handle automatic weapons, they don’t usually carry them around. Oh lower ranking officers from carry automatic weapons while they are on the field with their platoon or squad.
Obviously, the automatic weapons are better in the field while engaging the enemy than a handgun. They might be more expensive than handguns too, though I am unsure. So, why are officers wearing the less effective handgun/sidearm?
its because they usually stay behind, in the command area or headquarters where they run the war. Generals and Colonels seldom go to the front of the line. They don’t need the M16.
Back to WoK – in that same token, the spears do not need to be precise like what @wcarter explained. It just need to hit the target the same way that an M16 does not need to be precise.
Spears are usually not an elegant weapon but masters like Kaladin can make it look elegant. That is the reason why Bridge 4 was surprised when they first saw him handle a spear.
So why do the lighteyes choose a sword? Because it is good for close combat fighting and can cut off the head of the spear making it ineffective unless you use it as a quarter staff. And the sword has more uses than a spear. Basically, the spear, you just stick it in your enemy. With the sword, you can stick it, cut off something or just hack something. But it has to be precise.
In the shattered plains, Dalinar and Adolin fight differently from the others High Princes. They are on the battlefront. They attach first. The others like Sadeas and Aledar, they stay far away from the line of scrimmage.
Aside from just being honorable, Adolin and Dalinar by being in front of the line also demonstrate at least to me that they are better warriors than the others. They hone their skills in battle not just the dueling arena.
I hope this answers your question.
The prestige of the weapon mostly: you choose a sword because it means something to be skilled with a sword, while even the greatest mastery of most other weapons doesn’t bring the same level of respect.
For example, look at the bow: in terms of range it’s way superior to any melee weapon, but because archery duels aren’t direct confrontations (they could be, of course, but you’re more likely to see targets being set up and the measure of skill being in accuracy and precision), it doesn’t get the same appreciation swords do (and let’s keep in mind that the bows a Shardplate wearing person can use are closer to ballista – siege weaponry – in strength).
@wcarter: I may be misremembering, but didn’t Skallagrim do a video on how unrealistic it is in an actual combat scenario for someone wielding a sword to try to break the opponents spear? Of course YMMV, as he only does basic testing (this video if you’re interested). Of course it’s somewhat different if Adolin has his Plate on, because that gives him superhuman strength, but otherwise it’s pretty hard to actually be able to hack away at a spearman’s weapon and do appreciable damage, as you need to be able to line up the strike properly and hit the same point repeatedly (something even a decent spearman would no to try to prevent). It’s true that spears seem fragile in the Stormlight Archive: one you get to superhuman strength the wood just can’t stand it. But in de-powered combat training it’d be a matter of each person’s skill with their weapon and knowledge of how to overcome the weaknesses in their match-up (which I feel like ends up as a wash – Adolin has the greater experience in duels but hasn’t probably fought someone using a spear without the advantage of a Shardblade for years).
Here’s something I find interesting: metallurgy on Roshar seems advanced enough for decent blades, yet there doesn’t seem to be any thrusting blade like the rapier yet. Has no one thought of it, or is this a case of the stigma of a weapon that would seem designed to go against Shardplate?
What makes you think Amaram is responsible for Shshshsh’s death?
I was just speculating about who among Jasnah’s acquaintances could have been hurt, and was too lazy to search for the comment I was referring to:
Re: what might have happened to her in the past… is it possible that someone she cared about – friend or protege, not love interest – was mugged and murdered in much the same fashion as the MO of the thugs in Kharbranth, and that at the time she was unable to do anything about it, and had to simply watch helplessly? (We haven’t heard about any family members missing, hence the friend or protege guess.)
@72 Braid_Tug
I feel like we are going to have a normal Shardbearer vs KR battle at some point in the books. Maybe not the Kaladin vs. Adolin one that everyone wants to see. (If only to answer that burning question we all can’t help but ask.) Given how many Shards where discarded in Dalinar’s vision back in WoK it’s going to happen. I suspect that it’s going to happen in the next book but I guess we’ll see.
There are a lot of normal Shardbearers who are unaccounted for outside of those in the Alethi nobility. Some are held by free agents like the assassin Liss. I’m sure the Ghostbloods have Shardbearers in their numbers. Taravangian has at least Graves and Moash and now any of the Shardbearers that are loyal to Jah Kaved. I would put money on anyone who is a part of the Sons of Honor also being Shardbearer or striving to get Shards like Amaram. I can think on any number of situations where someone from any of these groups would end up fighting any of our current Radiants — Kaladin in particular because he seems to be our only tank as of the end of WoR.
@55 Walker
The conversation between Kaladin and Sly about ability doesn’t necessarily show a contradiction with Kaladin’s later inability to handle the spear in the practice yard. I’m assuming that’s the scene you are referring to where he’s incompetent with the spear. That scene comes after he’s been very badly injured from a fighting a chasmfeind. Kaladin did hold his own against the beast with some timely assistance from Shallan’s stealth Lightweaving. If he hadn’t actually been able to fight well using the spear he should have died in that fight. His ability even to walk had been hurt by that fight and he doesn’t give his body time to recover and then like an idiot, he tries to do spear katas as if he’s got the mobility of an uninjured person. Of course he’s going to stumble around and fall on his face.
@77
Just throwing this in there:
Jasnah’s Shardblade in the epilogue is has a description that brings to mind a rapier. That would suggest that Jasnah knows how to use that type of weapon.
Also I think Wit’s sword that wears with his Kings Wit costume has a similar description to a rapier. Though I don’t know if it’s decorative or if Wit actually knows how to use it. Wit’s full of surprises, so he probably does know how to use it.
I don’t think either Jasnah or Wit would be people that others in Alethi society expect to fight much. Wit in particular can’t really tell us much about how people from Roshar feel towards rapiers and because he’s not from Roshar. So for all we know people just take the thin sword at his side as an affectation.
@80 kei_rin – I am unsure what is the difference between a rapier and a side sword because both looks the same to me. But, it seems that the Alethi (at least Kaladin and Dalinar based on their POV), think of it as more of an affectation than a real weapon.
In the chapter where Kaladin, Adolin and Shallan went to a menagerie, Kaladin noticed that Adolin was wearing a side sword and found it strange that Adolin chose to wear it since he was a shardbearer.
In the chapter towards the end where everyone was fighting Szeth at the Shattered Plains, HIgh Prince Rhoin tried to engage Szeth with a side sword. Dalinar though he found the gesture very noble and heroic saw Rhoin’s choice of sword as strange. (Am too lazy to look for the actual quote, sorry )
Hope that answers your question
@@@@@ 77 FenrirMoridin
Yes he did. Breaking a spear isn’t easy, but it is possible with repeated strikes. Especially in closed rank formation battles.
I am aware that breaking the spear isn’t a good strategy normally, but part of the problem with my explanations to Gepeto is I’m trying to combine both what’s possible in reality and what Adolin himself would normally do with a shardblade–whose limitations have nothing to do with a real swords–to what he would have to do with a practice blade against Kaladin to win a sparring match.
Getting inside a spear’s reach is the best way to win. But even that is easier said than done. The better trained the spearman, the harder it is. I don’t see Adolin being able to do this against Kaladin on an open practice field. For every step Adolin took forward, Kaladin could just take one back or to the side.
Adolin isn’t used to getting inside someone’s reach regardless. He uses a massive shardblade that can cut through spear, rock, man, or cheeesecake with equal ease. So they way he has trained and the way he fights doesn’t lend itself to the traditional strategy.
Breaking his spear is the only other real option he’s left with then, and even it doesn’t work against Kaladin while they are sparring for the reasons we have all already mentioned.
Ultimately my only point is every viable setup for a sparring match is either fair, but would probably result in someone getting badly injured or even killed. Or is relatively safe, but heavily rigged in favor Kaladin.
I’m back on fantasy shipping Jasnah! OMG, this is a fantasy within a fantasy, pardon the pun.
I was thinking of Teft. He is in the right age group (early 30s) He is unmarried (his wife died according to one of Kaladin’s POV). And he is going to be a Windrunner, via Kaladin.
My concern though is both of them are not into relationships. LOL. Again, this is something for romance writers to ponder on. Since I’m not one, I don’t know how these two can even meet. It’s a fantasy match up on my part after all. :-)
@83
Huh, I didn’t realize Teft was in his 30s. I seriously just assumed he was in his 40s or older.
As for Jasnah and Teft meeting:
The scenario I could see for that working is if Kaladin and Jasnah just super do not get along and to save them both form having to talk to each other Kaladin starts sending Teft over to Jasnah with notes like “Princess, please do not abandon your bodyguards when going out at night. They are there for you protection.” or something like that and then Jasnah sends snarky notes back. Then Teft one day gives a comment of what to say if she would really want to piss off Kaladin because he’s also kinda unhappy with Kaladin; damn it he’s a solider not a message boy and he’s too damn old for this foolishness. Thus setting the stage for Teft and Jasnah to interact on level that would be more conducive towards romance/friendship.
This scenario could also work for Teft to work as Kaladin’s accidental wingman.
@82 wcarter: Fair enough, that is the major problem – shardblades and regular swords basically play out entirely different in how they would function. Adolin’s biggest problem would be that, in that kind of situation, he needs to fight more aggressively than I think he is used to: as we see in the duels he tends more towards caution which is why later on he has some issues with the fight against multiple opponents (as the best method is to force them into short conflicts where they can’t bring their numbers to bear, which Adolin is able to start doing but he’s just not used to it…plus even with his skill that was a severe handicapped match). That said, if they were going to spar it wouldn’t need to be just a single match thing, and while the spear has the advantage in reach both are at the skill level where they would be trading victories and losses. But it’s hard to say if a de-powered match could ever be fair for Adolin: I’d assume the bulk of his experience is with the Shardblade – even before he won his he probably still practiced with borrowed ones or Shardblade-analogs. And even counting Plate and Blade, it’s hard to say how much enhancement that provides versus Stormlight as a KR, and of course Kaladin still doesn’t have armor of any kind. Reach is a bigger advantage in close rank battles with a bunch of people, but in one-on-one sparring there’s more freedom to get around it, not to mention, depending on the sword we don’t know what Adolin would have in his other hand. He’s never used a shield but then he’s used to using his Shardblade 2-handed.
And once you throw in the possibility of a shield that makes it even harder to gauge where they would be at.
Related question: Must Shardblades only be a single continuous weapon? We’ve seen Syl can take on multiple forms but she was either a shield or a weapon, so maybe shield + sword wielders would be out of luck as a KR unless they us a Half-Shard, and those are only good for a couple blows.
@80kei_rin and @81sheiglagh: I didn’t even consider whether the side sword could be a rapier. I just always though side swords were your basic long-sword or short-sword, but Jasnah’s sword is described as being long and thin, so it would make sense that there’s some kind of sword she’s been able to see and emulate. Although I also wouldn’t be surprised if Jasnah just settled on that as a better shape (a rapier-like Shardblade really seems to fit Jasnah well personality wise).
@84kei_rin: Sorry just thought I’d let you know I giggled at the idea of the messages/notes being sent, that’d be hilarious. Although I get the feeling that might be too rom-com in set-up, which I wouldn’t mind but I think a lot of other people would.
Thank you all for all your comments on spear fighting versus sword fighting. It was interesting to read it all.
I thus get a duel between Kaladin and Adolin, unless they were both willing for Adolin to sport an injury or two (Kaladin can’t be hurt, he’d heal any injury) would be heavily in favor for Kaladin. Yeah, well that sucks. Big time. I feel this simply highlights how the normal folks just can’t defend themselves against surgebinders. Adolin can’t win a friendly match against Kaladin unless he is willing to compromise his physical integrity while Kaladin encounters not risks at all. It is unbelievably unfair, but it thus shows how powerless the best duelist in Alethkar will be in the next Desolation.
I also get a sword is more elegant and harder to master, but ineffective against a good spearman… Not a good deal from my stand point.
As for a Radiant versus Shardbearer duel, we have seen a confrontation between a surgebinder and a shardbearer: Adolin fought Szeth three times in WoR. All ended badly for him. It is thus safe to assume no shardbearer would ever win a fight against a Radiant: if Adolin can’t do it, worst he does not even come close to it, then nobody else can.
So basically, if you are not a Radiant, you are doomed, unless you are unbelievably lucky. This is what I have figured out.
Teft…
I was under the impression Teft was nearing his fifties… Anyone has a quote on that? I also prefer Jasnah to be… single.
The 4 on 1 duel…
Zahel comments as the match was about to start led me to believe he had enough talent to pull it of, but he panicked. The second he took a hit, he lost it all and went into a frenzy. In other words, he didn’t believe he could beat them so as soon as the wind turned… he just couldn’t fend for himself.
However, I still persist to think Adolin can grow into that man able to defeat four others. He is just not there yet.
That being said, I am unsure if Adolin’s is careful in his fighting… We see him take numerous hits to score some. When he fights Eshonai, he lets her trash him, but he ultimately uses her momentum against her.
@84 kei_rin @85 FenrirMoridin @86 Gepeto
OMG, the passing of notes scene is priceless LOL I just thought of high school when a boy passes a note to you and asks you if you like him. If you choose yes, then you are a couple. LOL what do kids do today? Perhaps they do it on Facebook or text message, :-)
Re Teft being in his 30s, it is in one of Kaladin’s POV. Either it’s when they just got freed by Dalinar and getting their tattoos chapter or it was in the chapter when Kaladin went with Moash to meet Graves.
Also, even by today’s health and medical care standards, you cannot be 50, be a bridge man and survive. It’s just too brutal a life. Dalinar who is a High Prince and receives the best medical attention for their era feels how old he was without his plate. And he was riding a horse and not carrying a bridge.
Forty is more plausible if Teft is older than mid-30s. But no more than that. Even if you are in your best physical condition, running bridges is a young man’s job.
i think they all feel and looked older when they were running bridges. When they got freed, they started to act more like themselves.
Well… I agree 50 is old to run bridges, but how long as Teft done it? It may be a young men’s job, but nobody cares about that when they are sent there… I fail to see why Teft can’t be in his fifties or close to.
Here is what the Coppermind has to say about Teft:
He is long past his twenties. He has tan skin, drooping cheeks, brown eyes with an epicanthic fold, and close-cropped, grizzled white-salted hair.[2] He keeps a neat, short and square beard that is light brown, mixed with patches of gray.
White-salted hair are more common in men well above their forties and even then… I do agree some men can grizzled very young, but grey hair mixed with white? Even his beard is white… It makes me think he has to be nearing his fifties… Men I know who grizzled young and who currently are in their mid-thirties do not befit this description. Even if they started getting grey hair in their twenties, they are still not grey mixed with white at 35. This description seems more fitting on an older man, but I agree this is not hard-core proof.
As for Dalinar, he is quite strong still. I do think he could still run bridges for a while without too much problem. They may not have modern day health care services, but they don’t get sick and don’t seem to suffer of much modern day ailments. I don’t think it is implausible Teft is an older guy.
@sheiglagh: I may be wrong but could you be mis-remembering Skar’s age as Teft’s? Because all I can find so far is this, from chapter 2:
That’s all I could find on Teft’s age with a quick look. Well, that and he’s the “oldest of the bridge men” which is only a little helpful.
I’m also hesitant to use Szeth as a yardtick for what a KR can do: not even counting the lack of Shardplate, who knows what changes come from having the spren to mediate the usage of Stormlight – we already know it affects the rate of Stormlight consumption, but it could change more as well.
Also, Adolin always ended up fighting Szeth with a disadvantage of some kind, either not in Plate at all or with pieces broken/missing.
@85 and 87
LOL, thanks! :) .
Fenrir, please don’t feel you have to apologize. I’m glad that people enjoyed my 5 minute fanfic. Brandon, IMO, has done a pretty good job of putting in believable romances into his books, which I’ve liked. I’m happy to think up and write the unlikely romances for fun and smiles. And it’s good to know that they amuse others as well.
@86 and @89
Dude! *faceplam* I didn’t even think of Szeth’s fights with normal Shardbearers because he wasn’t formally a KR until the end of book two when he’s given Nightblood. But being formally a KR doesn’t matter since he more or less was one as long as he had the HonorBlade that he used. All of his assassinations were fights against a normal Shardbearer and a surgebinder-Shardbaerer. So we have a bunch of his fight as data points, not just his fights against Adolin.
Also, Szeth’s sword consumes more stormlight and a normal Knight Radiant. He burns through his surge-abilities faster. So if anything, a KR should be at even more of advantage than Szeth was, not less. They would be able to do more with their surges.
It seems like a normal Shardbearer would be a disadvantage against a surgebinder-Shardbearer (KR) that’s almost equal to the disadvantage that a normal solider has against a normal Shardbearer. So that means that in a battle situation; if the normal Shardbearer is both good and very very lucky he could possibly win. It might not be probable, but it is possible. Kaladin did win his battle against Helaran before he was formally bonded with Syl and there are stories in Alethi society or normal men being able to beat a Shardbearer. The normal Shardbearer would have be super lucky though. Szeth had won all his battles until he was faced off with one of equal power to him.
And in a duel, the probability of a normal Shardbearer winning, gets even closer to zero.
So the only way for Adolin to have a fair duel with Kaladin, is for him to hurry up awaken and properly bond his blade. Thus becoming an Edgedancer and evening out the playing field a bit. Then, after he has some practice with his new abilities, the question become: who would win between a Windrunner and an Edgedancer?
Okay time for another of my off the wall theories.
So Brandon has said that it is possible to bond more than one blade and I believe he’s said RAFO for the possibility of bonding more than one spren. So here is theory/hope for Adolin. I want him to bond a Dustbringer spren first. Then with help of his Dustbringer spren and because he’s emotionally attached to his Edgedancer blade he awakens his Edgedancer blade and bonds that spren as well. I could see Adolin wanting to awaken/free the blade once he realizes that it’s trapped and broken, rather than just breaking the bond and setting aside the blade. This would make Adolin a Knight Radiant of two orders!
Then the question becomes: How would duel between a Windrunner and someone who is both an Edgedancer and Dustbringer go?
Also if the person has two spren I wonder if that means they could have both a sword and a shield.
I grant this an off the wall theory because Brandon might have meant the Knights bonded “lesser” spren in order to make there Shardplate. Like maybe Kaladin has to bond some windspren in order to make that “hint of coordination” into actual Shardplate. Or maybe you can’t actually bond two spren at all and he just didn’t want to give that away so early. I seriously look forward to reading and finding out.
Speaking of awaking/freeing trapped blades:
Has there been any discussion about the HonorBlades being broken blades like the other Shardblades we’ve seen? It’s clear the Shardblades left by the Knight Radiant are more limited than alive blades like Syl and Pattern. Could the HonorBlades be like that as well? Less powerful than they use to be, even though they can essentially make a person into a pseudo-Knight Radiant.
@85
I wonder, is it’s similar to how people can only heal themselves with stormlight based on a how they perceive themselves? If because Kaladin can’t perceive Syl as two part/muti part weapon she doesn’t become one. Maybe another KR who is more familiar with a bow and arrow would have their spren become that when they needed a weapon.
I’d like to go back to Gepeto’s earlier introduction of Myers-Briggs typology (MBTI) to Jasnah (INTJ) and to use this scheme to characterize other figures in the SA books. I recognize that the MBTI testing is considered controversial among pyschologists, but we’re dealing dealing here with fictional characters, not real people. Real people can be very complex and any test may not be really indicative of abilities, but fiction writers can create characters that fit better into standard categories. If you look at the types delineated in the MBTI scheme, as given for example in Wikipedia articles, then Jasnah will appear to fit in the INTJ type (mastermind); Kaladin in the ISFJ type (protector); Shallan in the ISTP type (artist); Adolin in the ENFP type (champion); Dalinar in the ENTJ type (fieldmarshall); and Navani in the ENTP type (inventor). Numerous examples can be given where these characters exhibit the properties described. However, I’m curious as to how others categorize these figures – assuming they can be fitted into these idealized categories.
@90: Edgedancer versus Windrunners: one can move super fast and the other can fly. I’d probably give the advantage to the Edgedancer as Windrunner may have trouble adjusting to the super speed. I also get the impression the Edgedancers were the best duelists, but I could be wrong.
I doubt Adolin will bond two sprens… In fact, I do think he is completely unsuitable for the Dustbringer order.
@91: You have to go beyond the descriptive of each type in order to assign them to characters… There was a whole discussion on the matter on the 17th Shard a while back.
Here’s a few thoughts.
Adolin a text book classic ESFJ. SJ types have a strong respect for authority and are not rebellious by nature. They also get most of their learning through personal experience. Adolin definitely is not a “intuitive” type. His sense of “right” and “wrong” are very typical of such types. The way he handles his emotions is classic ESFJ, ust as the way he easily gets hurt also is typical.
Kaladin is a clear NP type and not a SJ. INFP is more probably for him though I am unsure about the F. He may be T.
I do not recall the consensus they had on Shallan, but she was INFJ or ISFJ… I do not remember, but it was determined she was a F-type.
Dalinar is nearly impossible to determine with the clues at hand. E or I? This is unclear, but he surely is a SJ type like Adolin.
@92
What makes you think Adolin is completely unsuitable for the Dustbringers? All we know about them is they are fighting order that is often misunderstood by people. I get the impression that the Dustbringers were powerhouses when it came to fighting and that probably scared a lot of people. Nothing I’ve read makes me think that Adolin would be unsutiable for it.
He of course might have a better fit in other orders.
Of the orders that he certainly doesn’t fit in. I would say the orders that he just doesn’t fit at all would be Lightweavers, Elsecallers, Bondsmiths, Truthwatchers, and Skybreakers. Though he does have a protective streak in him I don’t see him a Windrunner. He could work for this order technically but putting him feels like shoehorning him in. He doesn’t seem stubborn enough for the order of the Stonewardens. From what little we know of Willshapers he doesn’t seem to fit (I think Willshapers is more of a fit for Eshonai and it would interesting to see if we get a Parshendi KR). I don’t think that Adolin particular has a love of oddity, novelty and adventure. This leaves Dustbringers and Edgedancers. Edgedancers falls into the forefront for possible orders only because of Adolin’s own blade, otherwise I don’t think their is enough information to discount Dustbringer.
FWIW, if it weren’t for Adolin’s Blade, I’d still be firmly in the Adolin-as-a-Dustbringer camp. But… with only my phone for Internet access until we get our power back on, I’m not going to argue it now.
(Power went out due to a freak windstorm on Saturday morning, and we’re in the last 24,000 to get it back… out of 175,000 in our county. Record outage, if anyone cares. Will return to regular discussion when I can use my computer for it again.)
Back to Alice’s post: regarding her “Words of Radiants” section, I have to admit that I totally missed this was the only mention of the Truthwatchers until Chapter 89; for some reason I had thought that order had been mentioned more than once.
Alice and I may differ slightly on our perception of Renarin as a Truthwatcher (she states she thinks his claim is valid, I suggest exercising caution until we get more evidence), but I will say that this “Word of Radiance” excerpt aligns with Renarin’s actions after he announces himself as a Truthwatcher and would appear to provide support to the theory that Renarin is acting like one.
When Kaladin asks for more information about what a Truthwatcher is (“I walk the winds. She weaves light. Brightlord Dalinar forges bonds. What do you do?”), Renarin seems to hold true (haha) to the behavior of Truthwatchers described in the Words of Radiance epigraph (“those who never spoke or wrote of what they did,” and “not naturally inclined to explanation”) by cryptically replying to Kaladin “I see.”
As for Adolin and his possible Radiant Order: I also wouldn’t rule out Dustbringer. I believe Adolin potentially becoming a Dustbringer was a popular theory at 17th Shard until the WOB that confirmed his Blade was once an Edgedancer’s spren/Blade.
Having said all that, I would love for Adolin to find a way to revive the spren in his Blade and become an Edgedancer. If that is the story that Brandon decides to tell…
89. FenrirMoridin – Yes you are right. It was Skar not Teft. I’m on audio book most of the time. :-)
@93: Sorry, I did not have the time to expand when I wrote my previous post. This will be very lengthy and it may lead into another argument I will undeniably lose.
First of, I’ll explain how I have come to believe sprens chose their members. We do not know everything just yet, but we do know the sprens are looking for individuals capable of maintaining the oaths of a given order. Each order is tied to two attributes and, as far as we know, the oaths are a step by step procedure designed to slowly bring the Radiant to truly embrace those attributes. Let’s take Kaladin for instance. Back in Amaram’s army, he was being protective. He has decided to dedicate his life, his pay check and all his effort to protect all the young boys he could find. His objective was to lead his men in and out of battle with as little causalities as possible. He was being protective, but restrictive. Syl saw potential and though this young man could grow into a Windrunner. His first two oaths have served to expend his aura of protection towards people he did not choose himself: the Kholin army (those who can’t help protect themselves) and Elhokar (those he hates, if it is right). However, without Kaladin’s natural instinct and strong innate desire to protect, we can assume he would have failed at grasping those first two oaths. Remember how he hesitated towards rescuing Dalinar’s army back in WoK? Had his instinct been less, surely he would have walked away.
Hence, the first attribute needs to be very strong within the chosen proto-Radiant. It appears as if this is needed.
Second, what are the Dustbringers attributes? Brave and obedient. For the longest time, most readers have assumed this would befit Adolin. The argument seemed to have sprout more out of coincidence then true potential, after all we had been left with an open spot in the flashback sequences, at the time, and there were no Dustbringer announced just yet… It seemed logical it would be him and well, Adolin is brave, now isn’t he?
There’s the issue. Is Adolin brave? Of course, but is he braver than Kaladin? Or Dalinar? Or even Renarin, Shallan and Jasnah? Nope. He isn’t. In fact, his bravery is not spectacular, it is not outstanding, it is not special… He is just brave as most soldiers are brave.
You bring forward the comparison with Kaladin, stating Adolin is protective, but it seems of of him. I do agree with you. It is not a good choice… as whereas Adolin is protective, he is not protective as Kaladin is. He has not dedicated his life to protect those beneath him. He has not turned this into his own personal motto… He is not special nor abnormal when it comes to protection and surely he would fail at grasping those oaths, especially the third one.
Therefore, how is Adolin so brave it makes him stand out? Dalinar described his son as a hothead, but have we really see it? Except for this one time where he fooled around with Jakamav (which was more an attempt to bond with Jakamav to enforce his father’s plan than true bravery), Adolin has been very cautious in battle. He is impulsive, true, but when? The answer is when he is emotionally disturbed. In other words, Adolin is emotionally impulsive, but remove his emotional response and he is quite level-headed.
So Adolin’s bravery is not special nor outstanding. What else? Oh yes, the epigraph stating the Releasers were an angry unsympathetic bunch… Does this really fit Adolin? He is not an angry young man: anger if what he feels when confronted to an unexpected situation he can’t control, but would act on if rules would not prevent him to. He is thus forced into inaction, standing still in front of something he sees as morally wrong. He reacts with anger. Adolin always reacts with an emotion: anger is an emotion, but he is not a angry person in his everyday life. In fact, he’s downright nice. Every loves Adolin. How does this make him fit in the descriptive, assuming it is right?
What does Adolin have that is special then? What is his driving force? I think this question is best answered if we look at his string of most notable actions (hoping I had not forget any):
1) Rescuing a prostitute in a enemy war camp.
2) Accepting to be either killed or crippled to protect Renarin in the 4 on 1 duel
3) Staying in prison for Kaladin
4) Giving out to a darkeye
5) Fighting Szeth
6) Killing Sadeas
We can undeniably state Adolin has a strong sense of morality: he cares if something is right or wrong on a moral stand-point, not so much on a legal stand-point. Honor does matter (dueling), but it pales when confronted with an undying threat towards his family/people (Sadeas).
So why does Adolin does all these things? Simply because he is a nice guy? Is being a decent human being sufficient to explain it all? Maybe, but the fact remains the link between all is… care. Adolin is rarely seen to care about himself or to think about his safety: he always thinks of others before stopping onto himself. He does it repetitively.
I know most readers will disagree with me, but I have come to believe Adolin’s leading quality is love and not bravery. I have come to not picture Adolin as the tanky super powered soldier with destructive power…….. It seems very of. Adolin is a duelist, not a weapon of mass destruction: he never wanted to be a soldier. His heart is not in there. He seems more befitted with the elegant deadly fighters that were the Edgedancers.
I agree to disagree with everyone. I know I won’t convince many, but I sincerely hope future books will prove me right.
@Everyone discussing Adolin as an Edgedancer or Dustbringer, my vote is that he is going to be an Edgedancer. Nothing against Dustbringers. But I don’t know much about them while there are a lot of tidbits of information that points to Adolin being an Edgedancer.
The first is of course his blade, which is an Edgedancer’s blade. The second is his mother who was Iriali and gave Adolin his blonde hair. The Iriali hair breeds true like the Alethi black hair. The purer the Iriali, the more locks of gold in the hair. But for whatever reason, Adolin ended up with more Iriali blood (or genes, whichever is the correct term) than Alethi.
This is significant for two reasons. The sect or group of KR that you will belong to depends on your ancestry. And if that logic is true, then it almost says that you have to have a KR in your family line to be chosen by a spren. I’m still unsure of that but that is just my educated guess.
The second reason is because Iri, Adolin’s mother’s home country is also where Rall Elrorim (City of Shadows) is located. This is where Nightwatcher reigns. I believe that Nightwatcher is Cultivation and Cultivation is the source of the Edgedancers’ surge abilities of progression (healing and regrowth).
Lift is the only Edgedancer we know. She grew up in Rall Elorrim, she visited the Nightwatcher. Ym who might be dead at this point is a suspected Edgedancer because he can heal using stormlight. He is Iriali.
This might be reaching of course. But, the one that cinched the deal for me is the Edgedancer’s second oath – I will remember those who have been forgotten.
Dalinar had forgotten Adolin’s mother. We don’t know what was the relationship that Adolin had with his mother. But, it will still be safe to say that he loved her dearly. And chances are they were very close. Adolin still carries his mother’s beads and think of it as good luck when he duels.
I would love for Adolin to be an Edgedancer so that he can awaken his blade and awaken the other spren who “died” during The Recreance.
Of course, right now, they are saying that the knight has to be alive for the spren to be revived. But, what if it is about “blood” or ancestry. As long as the original’s knight runs in someone who is alive in Roshar today, then the spren can be revived, right? That is of course, if it is about ancestry and blood.
Again, this might be reaching, but somehow in my mind it makes sense. :-)
@93
In my reading, I totally see Adolin having a love of “oddity, novelty” etc. Evidences: his capricious courting history (“that red hair is just so exotic” and the like), his fondness for fashion magazines in WoR.
Though of course, using the in-universe Words of Radiance text as a basis for categorizing everyone into orders is hardly reliable, given the pointed line about Edgedancers being so cultured and refined just after we met streetrat Lift. (Oh, how I love Lift.)
@98: I am unsure if Adolin’s mother are Iriali as you suggested and I am even less sure there needs to be a link in your ancestry to be a Radiant. We are in the realm of pure speculations here.
I would also point out Ym is also suspected to be a Truthwatcher which would put him in the same order of Renarin whom has not inherit much of the golden locks.
We don’t know what relationship the boys had with their mother, but Adolin appears to be the one who is more keen on remembering her. Alternatively, he is also is the one enjoying having Navani mother him from time to time. How had Dalinar put it in WoK? That is son sometimes went back to being a child when around Navani? That he lets her get away with things nobody else could? It indeed seems as he was very fond of her and still carries a certain melancholy towards her death, which is interesting as it is assumed it is Renarin who was the most affected by Shshshsh’s death as he is the broken one. I won’t presume any if this is relevant except the fact Adolin does remember his dead mother…
What else does he remember?
His dead soldiers, he names a few of them in his head at the king’s counsel, stating again how these were good men and friends that died that day. We haven’t seen Dalinar exhibit the same behavior.
His Blade, his beloved Blade he refused to name by respect for what it once was and understanding he was not worthy to give it a petty name. In a way, he is trying to remember the essence of what it once was and while he is wrong about it, he also is awfully close to the truth.
Can a prostitute be accounted for one of the forgotten? Didn’t Lift went back to save Gawx as nobody else would care? Didn’t Adolin rescue a woman nobody else cared about? Didn’t he just do the expect same thing, but with much less tragedy? It is one way to interpret the event.
What else does he do?
Oh yes. The superstitions, the lucky charm, the ritual which undeniably is important to him. What does he answer when Navani scold him for it? That it was not a superstition while Renarin admits it is just for good luck. Why is it relevant?
Perhaps it means nothing, perhaps it is merely a coincidence, but Lift does carry a lucky diamond chip…
Lift always kept a diamond mark in her pocket, which she considered lucky.
Superstitious Edgedancers.
@100 Gepeto- the Stormlight Wiki identifies Adolin’s mother as Iriali. And since only the Iriali are the only ones identified as having golden hair in Roshar, then it is an educated guess that Adolin’s mother is Iriali for whoever wrote that page in the Wiki. Or maybe, the writer asked Brandon. As for me, I would say she is Iriali by virtue of her blonde hair. I can be wrong. But I have to make that leap to arrive in my conclusion, which can be way off once Book 3 comes out.
As for “I will remember those who have been forgotten,” it is because Adolin does not know that his father had forgotten his mother.
Maybe, the big reveal will be in Stormlight Archive 3 – Oathbringer I believe is the working title. (Or is it High Prince of War) But no matter what, once Adolin learn that his father had forgotten his mother, it will affect him. Whether it will be dramatic as he will get angry or he will be hurt, I don’t know. But it will be a big deal. And he will say “I will remember those who had been forgotten”
Or Adolin might be granted an Honor Blade. They have Szeth’s blade, the Herald’s blade and another honor blade that the Parshendi left during the night of the assassination. So, that is three blades. They are honor blades, so they will be Windrunner surges, though the other one must be in Kholinar and no one knows where it is because there is only one mention of that blade and it is in Eshonai’s POV.
I do not think Adolin’s mother ethnicity was canonized… I wonder where the Stormlight Wiki got their source, because the only reference about her being potentially Iriali comes from Kaladin who wonders about it due to the golden hair. I do not recall a WoB on the matter as well. It is quite probable you are right, but I do not think it has been confirmed yet.
The second oath (we assume it is the 2nd oath, but it has not been confirmed either) of the Edgedancers can be interpreted in various ways. It is not just his mother he seems keen on remembering, but various people. It is not cohesive yet, but Adolin is not a proto-Radiant yet. We can’t expect him to behave like one.
That being said, I have assumed the fact his father forgot about his mother would come into play, eventually. The interesting thing to note is Dalinar wonders, back in WoK, how Renarin would react should he find out the truth. He wonders if his son would forgive him. Mind, I put son to the singular as he does not wonder how Adolin would react, only Renarin.
I doubt Adolin will get anywhere near that Honorblade. For first, I think it more likely Elhokar, as the king, would take it. Dalinar has insisted how the king should be the one to award the Blades, it would be logical for him to give it to his nephew, assuming it is his to give which is unsure. It could also be Elhokar would demand it, being king. In any advent, shall anyone ever offer it to Adolin, I am convinced he would refuse it thinking himself unworthy. I also do not see Adolin readily bond another Blade: he’d think it is wrong. So no, I do not foresee this plot line.
@102 Gepeto – I am officially stopping myself from talking about Adolin until the Chapter when Kaladin, Shallan, Adolin and Wit go to the menagerie. :-)
@97
You make a better case for Adolin being an Edgedancer here than I’ve seen anywhere else, to be frank. Most cases for Adolin as Edgedancer seem to begin and end with “His blade is an Edgedancer’s blade”. You’re strongest points, I think are that Adolin doesn’t see himself as solider or as a weapon of large scale war. Also the fact that his calling is dueling and that the agility and assumed gracefulness of the Edgedancer order fit him when put in that light.
I will say that I think you are bit hard on the order of the Releasers (Dustbringers). I re-read the epigraph and while I can certainly see how you might read that as saying that Releasers were angry and unsympathetic on the whole, I think it’s mostly only in relation to peoples insistence on calling them Dustbringers when they (those of the order of Releasers) think of that name as an insult. It’s like when someone knows your name and still refuses to call you by it because calling you Stu makes you mad and that’s more fun. My understanding of Dustbringers/Releasers from the epigraph was that they were prone to strong emotions and unfortunately since they were very powerful that they scared people.
Dustbringer is still going to be my number two pick for KR order for Adolin but I suppose it’s no longer as close of a call between the two.
~
The longer I take to find where Brandon said that the ability to use Investiture was hereditary, the more I worry that it was only true for Mistborn. It’s sorta true for Warbreaker (the royal locks are hereditary but almost everyone can use Breath). It doesn’t seem to hold true at all for Elantris; it seems random who can use the Dor. I’ve been making some of my assumptions/theories based on about the ability to suregbind and who can become a KR being hereditary.
Can anyone confirm that Surgebinding is hereditary?
It definitely seems to run through the Kholin family strongly. I think the only people who it has not been even hinted at as a possible KR is Navani and Elokar’s wife.
@98
I got sidetracked by the above because I was thinking that I don’t think it’s necessary for the new Knight Radiant to be in the same order as who their ancestor was. If that was true, I don’t that Dalinar should have been able to bond the Stormfather. Jasnah and Renarin are both on the Cultivation side of the KR spectrum. Which if past ancestry mattered for which Knight order a person could bond to, then Dalinar shouldn’t have been able to become a Bondsmith. (Side note: Dustbringers are also on the Cultivation side of the KR diagram.)
Unless of course you are only talking about the dead blades. In which case Adolin’s blade is a super lucky blade to have stayed in the same family for however many hundreds of years because I get the feeling that that wasn’t that common. After the Radiants broke their oaths the general way of treating Shardblades seems to have been: Finders Keepers. I highly doubt that the same blade managed to stay in the family for all those generations. Either getting lost on the battlefield or in a duel.
@99
I agree we might be completely off base because it seems that Roshar’s past isn’t going to be a good enough template for what’s going to happen in the future. Lift is adorable but you’d have to stretch to call her street manners cultured and refined.
@104 Re: Hereditary Investiture
In Elantris and The Emperor’s Soul, it is heavily implied that your ability to use investiture is related to your birthplace, ethnic heritage, proximity to some sort of geographic location, and as you said, a fair amount of luck, at least for becoming an Elantrian.
In Mistborn, the ability to manipulate investiture is passed down from your ancestors, but there are ways of taking the ability from someone by force. BWS has stated that this is actually possible across the Cosmere.
Like you said, Warbreaker seems a little different. While the Royal Locks are passed down through the generations, every single person born on that world has a breath that they can use however they wish.
As for Roshar, at the end of WoK when we are inside Hoid’s head he says that the Alethis’ reason for choosing lighteyes as rulers is a good one. That could mean that lighteyes will be more apt to become surgebinders, but I don’t think we have enough information yet.
@103: Farewell then. The menagerie is a nice chapter, so much to say about it.
@104: I may have been slightly harsh on the Duutbringers, but I will admit I do get a “vibe” Adolin does not belong there. It used to believe, as most people, he would be the perfect candidate as, after all, isn’t Adolin brave?
We are going to argue he is brave. This is not a discussion to be have.
However, the argument that convinced me was the intend. In other words, in the wonderful world of Radiants, it does not appear as if the action mattered so much as the intend behind it, which would explain why some Radiants are allowed to get away with murder as long as the reasons justifying it is inline with their specific order’s morality.
Hence, I have come to believe intend matters above all. A thought reinforced by Kaladin’s story arc whose actions are always guided by his need to protect. For instance, when Kaladin jumps in the arena during the 4 on 1 duel, whereas he was undeniably being brave this is not why he acted. He acted to protect.
I believe the same can be said about Adolin: while he is being brave on numerous occasions, bravery never is the reason why he acted. Love, care however, nearly always is. Love and care for a father, for a brother, for his men.
Ultimately, this is the argument that convinced me (not the Blade’s nature as I was convinced before we received this specific WoB) as no matter how I analyse Adolin’s lost of actions, bravery never comes forward as being the driven force.
I do agree anyone could come forward and individually take each one of the Edgedancer theory arguments to destroy them, but when you group them together… You end up creating a set of gears that strangely fit one within another. It just works and the more you dig into it, the more coincidence you find… Relevant? Happenstance? Maybe, but it is so coherent once it is fully fleshed it gets hard to go back to the old “Adolin will become a Dustbringer” theory…
@@@@@104. kei_rin and 105. crapaflapnasti – I wish I can answer but I can’t. :-( I have to stop myself from being distracted. Today, the craziness at my work begins. It does not end until mid-October. I’m only on lunch that’s why I’m here. I just have to read what y’all are posting. :-)
As mentioned, Lift is an uneducated street urchin. She has survived thus far by her wits and barely explored surgebinding ability. She is but 13 years old and has much to learn. I am hopeful that she will find her way to Urithiru and will come there under the wing of Navani (if not Jasnah) and be properly raised to educated womanhood. As to the importance of eye color, that is rather questionable. It may not be important, particularly in regions under the influence of Cultivation, i.e., the western lands. We have not been yet told, if I remember correctly, Lift’s eye color (or that of Ym). We have been told that the Herald Talenelat is darkeyed. Sigzil, a dark-skinned traveler and Worldsinger is bemused at the social importance of lighteyes in the Eastern (Vorin) lands. On the other hand, the use of shard weapons appears to make the wielder light-eyed.
For those of you who like Adolin… Here is brand new WoB.
Much of Adolin’s early sense of morality was instilled in him by his mother.
I LOVE it. And it does work perfectly with the Edgedancer theory.
Just have to mention I love reading all the comments too each week, you all are amazing and help me see characters in a new light all the time. Even though I don’t post every week I always keep up with the reread
kei_rin @14:
And that tracks, since they are only Kholins via marriage, not genetics.
@105
I guess we just don’t have enough knowledge yet of how Roshar’s magic system works. Which in one respect makes sense; we only have two books. But on the other hand, those two books are huge, with a lot of content in them. And then we also have the rest of the Cosmere.
From what I can see based on the other Cosmere books, is that there at least one way of using the magic that requires a hereditary connection to the magic and at least one way of using the magic that doesn’t require a hereditary connection.
We’ve talked about Warbreaker. In Mistborn we have Allomancy and Feruchemy are hereditary and then we have Hemalgury that isn’t hereditary.
We’ve already discussed a little bit of Elantris’ world. I don’t know if Forgery needs a hereditary connection, I remember that being the case. So I believe this is the non-hereditary magic. And I know nothing about the magic system that the evil empire in Elantris used, other than it seemed to hurt. So if we take the hints that the Dor does need a hereditary connection we have two other systems that may or may not need that connection.
As for the short stories in the Cosmere, I can’t remember how the magic is described in the short stories like Sixth of Dusk, but I don’t think that was a hereditary magic system. Also it was a short story, so I doubt we saw enough of the world to say much about the magic on that world. But that’s the only one I can really remember that takes place in Cosmere world.
Okay so now the question is, what does mean for Roshar’s magic system? Is surgebinding the hereditary magic of this world or is it the non-hereditary magic? I don’t actually know if it is or isn’t….
Originally I thought that surgebinding was the hereditary because almost all of the Kholin family has the potential to be a Knight Radiant. I thought it was possible as well because of the large number of KR that Dalinar saw in his vision back in WoK (the vision where the Knights of the orders of Winderunners and Stonewards abandon their oaths). That’s not really something that clearly supports the idea that being a KR is hereditary but it provide a good number bases for possible ancestors. Anyone else have any anything that could support this?
But then I was re-listening to the beginning of WoR again and Jasnah said that at the start of a Desolation the KR experienced and influx of new members. I feel like that actually would be better as proof that it’s not hereditary. There are also the Squires for the windrunners. I have a hard time believing that the Squire’s bloodlines are going to matter as well and by the end of WoR we are given hints that Squires will be able to the use the stormlight as well. Then there is the spren who choose the KR themselves. The spren already don’t care about gender (we have equal number of male and female Radiants) or age (Shallan and Lift were chosen young, whereas Dalinar is up there in years), why should they care about bloodline?
I really am starting to lean towards surgebinding, not being hereditary. Espically since (as STBLST pointed out in @108) eyecolor changed by using stormlight and seems to match up with KR order. Kaladin who is described to have brown eyes, has blue eyes when he’s using a large amount of stormlight. That didn’t permanently change his eye color. When he’s not holding as much stormlight his eyes go back to brown. So unless Stormlight can rewrite DNA, along with being able to grow missing limbs, Kaladin’s going to pass down brown eyes to his kids (should he have any). Then again maybe stormlight can rewrite DNA.
And all of this isn’t even getting to the question that I don’t even know if we can speculate on; what is the other magic system in Roshar?! And how will it work? Because there is going be at least one other.
@107 Sheiglagh
Come and join us! We bring theories and long winded waterfalls of text. Just forgo sleep and join the discussion anyway. :D
Just kidding. Don’t forgo sleep. Sleep is good. Good luck with work. I know I certainly had months where all I could do is just read the main posts and maybe a few of the discussion posts.
@106
Good point about intent being a main driving force behind things in Roshar. Kaladin loses his ability to use stormlight when his intent changes from one of protecting. Intent also seems to be way that the healing powers work for Edgedancer.
@everyone and anyone
I actually wouldn’t mind having a discussion about bravery and how it relates to Releasers. (It doesn’t have to be specific to Adolin.) Because here’s the thing—I actually feel like Dustbringers are like the Hufflepuff house of the Knights Radiants due to bravery being there primary attribute.
Bravery in my mind is always in spite of something. If two people are base jumping off a cliff. The person who is afraid of heights in my mind is the braver person. Dalinar is brave because he’s taken himself from a field that he knows very well, warfare and the running of armies, and is now trying to join people together through politics. That worries him and he doubt himself but he keeps going.
I really don’t think anyone is brave is just for the sake of being brave. Brave seems to me a moniker that is given to people, not one that they pick up for themselves. Brave, in the face of an enemy. Brave despite being afraid. Brave in order to protect others. Etc. etc. So I think that would make it hard for there to be anyone who falls into the Dustbringer category if that was the case because everyone would technically be fit into the Dustbringer mold.
Anyone who is a Knight Radiant would have to be brave. So you see my problem with Brave being the defining characterization of Dustbringers. How you quantify exceptional bravery? Is someone brave because stayed to fight because they knew an ally relied on them, even though they were scared? Yes, but what makes that person no good for Willshapers or Stonewards (Resolute and Dependable, respectively)? Is someone brave because they protected someone who couldn’t defend themselves? Yes, but what makes that person no good for Windrunners (Protecting)? Is someone brave because they followed the law even though it lead to hardships? Yes, but why not the order of the Skybreakers (Just)? Is someone brave because they know to stay their hand against an enemy because it’s not the right time to attack their enemy for political/social reasons? Yes but why not Elsecallers or Truthwatchers (Wise and Learned)?
So what makes a Releaser spren choose someone for that order? We don’t actually know because well the books haven’t given us that answer but I think it is two things. 1.) They don’t comfortably fit into any of the other orders. (See how it’s like Hufflepuff house, Hufflepuff took in all the students that didn’t fit easily into the three houses). And 2.) They point that they “broke” was do or die moment.
I fully admit this is pure speculation, especially for point two of how Dustbringers are chosen. I think that’s how they are chosen because I think of the Releaser order as an emotionally expressive group of people. But I’m basing that off a couple lines, so there really isn’t much to go on. Also, another group of epigraph lines tells us that just because someone doesn’t fit into their chosen order doesn’t mean they can’t be chosen for it. (Chapter 57: Malchin wanted straightforward oaths but was chosen for order of the Lightweavers.) I’m going out on a bit of a limb here and speculating that it was the way Malchin “broke” that caused a spren who was prone to for creativity and honesty bond with someone who wasn’t actually suited for that order. I think Kaladin “broke” when he couldn’t protect his brother. I think Dalinar “broke” when he chose to give up Oathbringer and dedicate himself to trying to unite Alethikar without the sword. I admit I have no clue was could have “broken” Shallan allowing her to bond Pattern, but I’ll put money on that it was something that fits one of the primary and/or secondary attributes of the Lightweaver order. And I would say equivalent statements for the other Radiants.
For Dustbringer/Releaser, I think the moment that they “break” has to be a moment of action. Where they needed to act and because they did they gained the beginnings of a bond with spren of that order.
Like I said, I’d be interested in hearing other peoples thoughts about bravery and Dustbringers. Any other theories about how Dustbringers are chosen?
Being brave is Gryffindor, not Hufflepuff. Dustbringer spren choose people like the sorting hat when it puts someone in Gryffindor.
@birgit
If I was just taking the most straightforward attribute comparison, then yes. I’m not just transferring the comparison between the two books that way. I think all the Knight Orders are filled with Brave people. This mean that all the Radiants would technically be Gryfindor (if you want to put it that way).
I think that the Dustbringers are where the ones who are motivated by more than one driving intentions are placed. They are the people who are driven by more than just the need to protect or up holding the law or uniting but they still are willing to fight and have the capacity to be Knights Radiant.
In this case it’s comparing Dustbringers to Hufflepuff house because Hufflepuff welcome those who don’t go into the other house with open arms. It’s not comparing the attributes of the house but the houses function with the social structure.
kei_rin, et. al.
Are we certain “breaking” is the event which attracts a spren that can form a Nahel bond?
There are events in the lives of Kaladin, Dalinar, and maybe even Renarin which are easy to define as “break-points”; and I certainly don’t disagree that those events might have some bearing on the formation of a Nahel bond. However, it’s an open book with respect to Shallan, Jasnah, Lift and others. Of the last 3 named, we know the most about Shallan’s background. Unfortunately, we don’t know very much about her life before she dispatched her mom, except that Pattern was hanging around in those days. I’d be saddened to learn of yet another tragic event in her early childhood that attracted Pattern in the first place, but it’s a possibility. Also, in the chapter we are discussing this week, Syl tells Kal that she knew she needed to find him when he was a child (and first picked up a spear). I take that as a time frame well before Tien’s death (YMMV), which appears to disprove the idea that “breaking” is the event which attracts a Nahel spren. Perhaps the spren is initially attracted for some other reason (genetic?), then “breaking” becomes necessary before progressing further to KR-dom. I just don’t think we have enough evidence to answer the “what attracts a Nahel spren” question just yet.
Something else to throw into the mix of “how KR are chosen”: We need to keep in mind that the “divine attributes” associated with each Herald (and by our own extension, with each Order) are Vorin idealizations. We can’t say with 100% certainty that the Herald himself/herself necessarily displayed those attributes, nor can we say that those are primary criteria for every Order in how the spren choose the person to bond. They might be… but they might not.
Sorry, that was kind of a wet blanket on the discussion, but once again I have to point out that we can’t really put people in little boxes and expect them to stay there for our convenience. That goes for characters written by someone else, as well… and for that matter, when one person puts a character in a little box, they can’t necessarily expect everyone else to agree with their perception of that character. Just sayin’…
@kei_rin
I have been given this some thought. I do understand the point your are trying to make and I cannot say I agree nor disagree with you. You may be onto to something or not, but I do agree it is worth discussing it.
Your premises is the Dustbringers would be the all-in order where those being capable of Radiant-like greatness while not being strong enough in their other attributes would fall into. However, they do have an attribute: Brave. And Obedient.
What is being brave? I have checked a few online definitions and all agrees being brave is akin to the absence of fear or fearlessness. Synonyms include “heroism”.
Could it be then, Dustbringers are about the complete absence of fear in all circumstances? No matter what is thrown at you, you are never afraid to act, to withstand, to fight, to talk…
If we look at it this way, then we can conclude none of our current Radiants are fit for this order, independantly of their other attribute…
For instance, we can agree Shallan has shown bravery in her infiltration of the Ghostbloods, in her manhandling of the slavers, in her approach to courtships, but her first truth was quite telling: “I am afraid.”. She is not fearless.
Kaladin is brave, but also afraid for his men, afraid the ligheyes would take his powers from him, afraid to talk to Dalinar… He is not fearless.
Back in WoK, many people thought Renarin would be a Dustbringer because he approached the chasmfiend during the hunt. It was seen as being very brave. His trials to help is brother in the 4 on 1 duel are also seen as very brave, but Renarin is afraid. He is mightily afraid of his visions, afraid to speak up, afraid to share, afraid to act even. He is not fearless.
Dalinar certainly is afraid as well… He is afraid he is going mad, he is afraid he is making a mistake all in all, despite his courage, he is not fearless.
I am thus leaning to believe the Dustbringers are those who are fearless, those who would follow order without showing or perhaps letting fear take over.
Now I have established this theory (it can’t be more than thta right now and Brandon has evaded all questions on the Dustbringers…), we can go back to Adolin. Adolin who is so brave, bit not fearless. Adolin fears greatly for his family, for his father and his anxious over being caught unprepared by a thread to those he loves. So he is fearfull which would make him unsuitable, if the current analysis is correct.
@@@@@ 116 Ways
Every time we as a group get into a major discussion/think tank on exactly how and when the Nahel bonds form , a character breaks and/or when the first oath is said and what it means I get worried about the true motivations of the spren.
With both Kaladin and Shallan it’s apparent that Syl and Pattern were either aware of them or present in some form years before present events. Possibly even before they were “broken,” but Syl also told Kaladin point blank that “they were all broken” in reference to the Knights Radiant of old.
I keep wondering if the spren don’t intentionally manipulate or even outright orchestrate some of the major [tragic] events in the lives of proto-radiants in order to push them to the point physically and mentally that it was possible to bond with them.
If they do, it might go a long way to explaining why the old Radiant orders were willing to forsake their oaths and kill their spren partners. I can’t imagine that would be an easy thing to find out about your spirit guide.
Adding my Wall of Text to the mix..
@105, 112 and others re: Cosmere magic/investiture and what is/not hereditary
I don’t think there necessarily is a consistent ratio of hereditary magic and non-hereditary magic throughout the different Shardworlds. From what we’ve seen so far, how the magic is accessed and used varies from world to world (thanks to the Coppermind for fleshing out the systems I didn’t know well):
Magic From The 4 Main Shardworlds
Sel (world from Elantris)
AonDor: Symbology type magic tied to loocation, assigned (apparently) randomly.
ChayShan: Movement based magic, only practiced (apparently) by people from a particular region. Very little is known.
Dakhor: Very little is known about this as well. It may be genetic/hereditary or it could be linked to location like AonDor.
Forgery: One creates forms on stamps to affect things. Location based magic. (disclaimer – I haven’t read Emperor’s Soul, so this is from the Coppermind wiki)
Nalthis (world from Warbreaker)
Awakening: Command oriented magic, tied to amassing and using the lifeforce (BioChromatic Breath) of others; the more Breaths you acquire from others, the more power and abilities you have. (this is incredibly simplified, for brevity). Anyone from Nalthis can practice this (from what we’ve seen).
Returned: Deceased individuals sent back from the dead with one “Divine Breath” (equal in abilities to regular person with approximately 2000 Breaths). Need one Breath per week to survive. Returned are selected due to some previous exemplary action (from what little we know)
Scadrial (world from Mistborn)
Allomancy: Ingest metals to manipulate internal (emotions, time perception, strength/dexterity) and external forces (push and/or pull on metal). Hereditary magic..
Feruchemy: Store (and during the storing, weaken) physical, mental and/or other attributes in metal, then access them on command to boost normal abilities. Genetic and hereditary.
Hemalurgy: Steal magical abilities or attributes from another by placing a metallic spike through a specific part/location of the victim’s body. Any knowledgeable practitioner can (theoretically) do it.
Roshar (world from Stormlight Archive)
Surgebinding: Ability to use/manipulate (usually 2 of) the 10 fundamental surges on Roshar by an individual. According to Brandon, Surgebinding (via the Nahel bond) is granted based on one’s actions or attributes, and is not hereditary. It does appear to be genetic though, as the common perception is that humans on Roshar are the only ones who can Surgebind.
Old Magic: Very little known. The Nightwatcher supposedly provides a boon and a curse to anyone who seeks them and asks for something.
Voidbinding: Very little known.
Listeners: Change “forms,” with each form providing different abilities and temperament. Genetic; all Listeners apparently have the same abilities. May be linked to voidbinding?
Aimians : Long life, alter physiology, cast shadows towards the sun. Genetic; all Aimians apparently have the same abilities.
Fabirals: Ability to use/manipulate the Surges on Roshar by a mechanical device. Apparently, fabrials can be used by anyone.
So in Sel, the access to magic seems predominantly location or region based. However we don’t know enough about Chayshan and Dakhor to know if they are more genetic/hereditary then region based.
In Nalthis the magic can (apparently) be accessed and manipulated by anyone, depending on how much investiture that individual has accumulated.
In Scadrial the magic is predominantly genetic and hereditary. Pre-Harmony Allomancy and Feruchemy were passed down through genetic lines of specific types of people; Post-Harmony the populace seems to have been fairly well mixed. Hemalurgy appears to be practicable by any knowledgeable individual though.
In Roshar, Surgebinding is not hereditary (as far as we know); Fabrials can be used by anyone; Listeners abilities are genetic and (therefore, by extension) hereditary; Aimians abilities are genetic and hereditary; and the Old Magic and Voidbinding are unknown.
I think that the ability to access magic in the Cosmere varies from planet to planet. There is no clear rule (other than the magic that is practicable only by any member of a certain genetic group) as to whether that ability must be hereditary or not.
… Also, there are so many types of way to access/use magic in the Cosmere.
Gepeto @118
I have to disagree with the definition of brave, when used to describe someone. Someone does not display bravery because they aren’t afraid. Someone displays bravery because they are willing to act, despite their fears.
Acting or doing something when you have no fear of the consequences isn’t all that brave to me. That person is not having to confront anything they consider potentially challenging, nor are they having to overcome anything.
Personally, I think that when we are talking about someone being brave, that person is displaying courage. Courage requires the willingness to confront or overcome things that are feared; whether that thing is painful, harmful, debilitating, potentially deadly, etc. Or the willingness to do what you feel is morally right, regardless of the potential consequences.
So, I don’t think fearless is more applicable to Dustbringers than it is to any other KR order. All of our proto-Radiants have displayed bravery and courage, even (sometimes) exceptionally so.
@120
Just a quick comment I wasn’t trying to say that there is ratio of 1:1 in magic systems. I was saying that there is a minimum of one of each type of magic system. There could be more of one type or another on any given world but at the very least one.
What abilities do the Listeners have? Are we talking about the listener forms? I didn’t really think of those as a hereditary power because it seems that all Parshendi can access this and not something that be tied to particular Parshendi family. Same with their ability to hear the rhythms.
@121: I believe you may be right. I have been focusing on the “fearless” part of the descriptive. We could then assume “bravery” as an attribute would express itself in the actions of someone who does not let his fears quite him.
It would thus be someone who may be afraid but acts nonetheless. The rest argumentative remains valid as all known Radiants have failed due to fear at one time or another thus proving that while being “brave”, they are not “brave enough” for the Dustbringers.
@122 – Good point re: the ratio. I guess I’m saying that I don’t even think we know enough about the various magic systems or use of investiture to even confidently assert that a minimum has to exist at all. Nalthis appears to allow anyone (ETA: native to Nalthis) to access investiture and with Sel we are not sure (we can only speculate) whether the magic is more oriented towards location/region, or is hereditary/genetic (unless Emperor’s Soul blatantly states that; I really need to read that one of these days).
As for the Listeners, that actually was my point. Both the Listeners and the Aimians have the access to some type of magic system. It seems that anyone who is born a Listener or Aimian can access their respective magic system. In that sense, the use of magic for them is genetic and, by extension, hereditary (a little bit of speculation there as we know both Horneaters and Herdazians are descended from Listeners and we’ve only seen Rock’s special awareness of spren as an example of Listener-like behavior). Their access to investiture seems similar to Nalthians (and possibly some of the inhabitants of Sel if you think that magic is more genetic/hereditary than locational/regional).
But both groups of (ETA: non-human) humanoids definitely have access to investiture. Now if we want to limit this to only magic for actual humans, that’s fine. But then we’d likely be eliminating Voidbinding and the Old Magic, too. And as Listener’s can use fabrials, it could be argued that that type of magic could be eliminated from the list of “human exclusive” magic as well. Which just leaves Surgebinding and the Nahel Bond; and Brandon has stated that receiving the Nahel Bond is not hereditary, but based on what the recipient of has done.
@123 – I am all for us fans having our own theories and/or headcanon. If that’s yours regarding the Dustbringers, then cool with me.
Personally, I think bravery (even exceptional bravery) isn’t negated by the fact that one’s fears have overtaken them before. Actually, I think it’s even more brave to confront a previous failure and overcome it; to persevere. I don’t perceive bravery as a one time thing, but as a continuous mindset or approach. To steal from Brandon and the Knight’s Radiant Ideals: It’s the Journey of confronting and overcoming one’s fears consistently; it’s not the Destination of overcoming one’s fears just once. (yes, that was cheesy). Even (or especially) if you failed due to fear before, as long as you get back on that proverbial horse and try again then you are exhibiting bravery and courage, in my book.
I mentioned in my post above @95 that I like the theory of Adolin reviving his Blade and becoming an Edgedancer. But before that Word of Brandon came out, I totally could have seen Adolin becoming a Dustbringer, based on what little we’ve seen in the books or gotten from Brandon himself.
Alice/Wetlander brings up a good point @117 that we are speculating on selection criteria for the KR based off of rather questionable source material: “divine attributes” as assigned by Vorinism associated with the affiliated Herald of each order. It’s all that we have so far, but it’s not really all that much.
@116 Ways and others
Nope, not at all. Because I’m not certain is the reason is why I put the term “broken” in quotes when talking about it. Syl says that all the KR were “broken” but in what way we don’t really know. We don’t know how traumatic that “breaking’” needed to be or even it needed to traumatic.
I’m counting the moment where the character in question is open to creating a bond with a spren as the “breaking point”. This is before they said the words tying them to a particular order. I also think this “breaking point” is basically a point where the character did something that is close to the ideal of a particular radiant order. So for Shallan I don’t feel like it would have to be something tragic just something that exemplifies creativity or truth/lies or whatever it is that cryptics look for in their Knights.
Granted like Wetlander said, I could be steering this conversation in the wrong direction relaying so much on the spren actually having those criteria for their knights. I’m connecting the spren of the orders that we know to the Heralds based on the diagram in the front of the book of the double eye of the Almighty and then using the Ars Arcanum to figure of what the primary/secondary attributes those spren would care about. We don’t know when these historical associations of the attributes were given to the Heralds. For all we know these could have ascribed by the Vorin church long after the Raidiants fell and be wrong in subtle ways that will make it so that this theory doesn’t work. IMO, for the orders that we do know of Windrunners, Skybreakers, Lightweavers, Elsecallers, Truthwatchers and Bondsmiths, they seem to fit.
You do bring up a good point that possibly throws a shadow on this view of “breaking points” if Syl has been watching Kaladin since when he first picked up a spear. What did he do to at that point which would draw her attention? We got a good chunk of Kal’s backstory back in WoK and we saw the first time he picked up the spear. From what I remember he wasn’t protecting anyone then. Nor was he leading anyone then. I don’t think Kal could have made even the beginning of a bond with Syl until he decided to join the army to protect his brother.
@119
If they do manipulate events in order to break someone to get them to be a KR then… yeah that would explain the Knights feeling betrayed. I hope that’s not the case though.
@124
Re: Magic system
I’ll agree that it’s all speculation with Sel. It’s hinted in the books that AnonDor is slightly genetics based but access of the magic is location based. That’s not enough to say for sure that it’s hereditary. But for Nalthis your forgetting about the Royal Locks that Vivenna and Siri have. That’s a hereditary to their family and allows them to change their hair color and length, either as an expression of their emotions or as they wish when they can control it.
Okay, think I see what you are saying. I was narrowing it down to genetic magic being one that is only with a particular family/bloodline but doesn’t have to be the case. So if genetically everyone has it -then I guess it falls under both categories. I suppose we’ll amend this to say that two are not mutually exclusive. One set of magic can include the other.
Can I ask where you saw that Brandon said that Nahel Bond isn’t hereditary? I only ask because I swear I read an interview where he said the opposite but I can’t find that so I don’t think I was right. But I haven’t read that he specifically said otherwise.
@124: I sincerely would not call it a theory, but mere ramblings. I am unsure at best of what I am advancing. In other words, I am fishing and trying to figure out how Dustbringers may fit within the picture. Unlike you, I was convinced to the “Adolin becomes an Edgedancer” before the famous WoB came out. I have thus long since stop seeing him as a potential Dustbringer for all of the reasons I have listed. I tried to summarized the arguments as best as I could.
However, how “bravery” would fit as a primary attribute is an interesting discussion. My suggestion is merely an idea which appears consistent with what we have seen so far. The premises may, of course, be wrong as the Arc Arcanum may not be trustworthy, but it currently is all we have to work on.
I also love speculations. They are fun to craft even if they often turn out wrong.
@125: Pertaining Shallan’s “breaking”, Pattern does state he was attracted to her ability to create strong lies… To be interpreted as we wish. However, I do agree we may be wrongly bias to the concept of “breaking” due to Kaladin’s horrible story. I for one tend to believe a proto-Radiant’s life does not seem to this dramatic to reach the appropriate state, but its convictions need to be tested. The downside of having heard of Kaladin first is nearly every forthcoming Radiant story is bond to make them feel unworthy as I can’t imagine they will all carry the same level of horrors.
As to why Syl would have been attracted to Kaladin as a boy in Heartstone, I can’t fathom why for the life of me. When he picked up that spear, he was being arrogant and cocky, much like he was when he jumped on Adolin and lost all of this powers. What she saw then is beyond me, not to mention it contradicts her other statement where she claimed she found him in Amaram’s army and it was his endeavor to protect his men.
@126 Gepeto – what does WoB mean? And where is it?
Words of Brandon. Which one are you interested in?
@128 I don’t know. what are the URLs
As anyone else noticed we have pattern going on here, WoK and WoR and WoB (for the author)? I now sorta every book in the stormlight archive to follow that Wo_ pattern. Lol.
@126
Maybe Syl meant that she had heard of Kaladin when he was young…… She’s very unhelpful, with her yes and no answer.
Earlier in the discussion we were talking Adolin’s blade; I and others were saying that Adolin’s blade was inherited from his mother. That’s actually wrong. It’s actually Adolin’s plate that was inherited from his mother. The blade he won in a duel.
This makes the likelyhood that Adolin has a bloodline connection to his blade go down even more in my mind. Not even taking all the discussion we had about that particular magic system and KiManiak point out that the Nahel Bond isn’t hereditary. If the Nahel Bond isn’t hereditary, then IMO it’s not going to be matter of needing the right bloodline to wake the blade up again. I again don’t know what to make of Syl saying that the blade’s Knight needs to be alive to revive it.
Damn it, Syl. Can’t we have one clear answer here?
I’m sure Syl’s odd phrases will end up making sense eventually.
wcarter @119
I’m with you on the (Nahel-capable) spren possibly having a hidden, self-serving, agenda. That hit me a while back when we were pondering one of the epigraphs.
Perhaps the “pheromone” that attracts spren–the Nahel bonding variety–is encoded in s-DNA.
And just what lies–provided that was how she reached the Shardblade-wielding-level-of-Radiancy-proficiency previously–was Shallan telling herself as a child? Makes me think she really did have another childhood trauma/stress that hasn’t been revealed.
Ways @131 – Don’t forget that Pattern’s definition of “lies” doesn’t exactly mesh with the human definition. He refers to anything that’s not literal truth as “lies” – outright lies, certainly, but also any form of figurative speech or idiom. Metaphors are particularly delicious.
@130 @131 @132 – have you ever wondered why Renarin’s spren did not manifest itself earlier? He had been wearing glasses all his life and then all of a sudden, he stopped wearing them. When did he get chosen? Where was spren all along.
another question for everyone – why did Kaladin lose all of his Stormlight when he was at the practice field in Chapter 18. Syl even asked Kaladin about it.
Sorry I can’t postulate. I can just ask questions right now. For some reason, I suspect that both Kholin princes have been chosen by a spren while they were still young but had chosen not to manifest themselves.
@131, 132 &133
So here is my working theory on Spren and their nefarious ways. For now it’s my personal head-canon until Brandon (hopefully) puts the kabosh on it.
Syl learned of Kaladin from her windspren cousins while roaming the world searching for him. She likely ran into him briefly at least once during her time with the attention span of a goldfish and virtually no long term memory. She finally found him when he was serving under Amaram.
At this time he was close to what she required to begin the bonding process, but just needed a little extra push. So she gave it. On a fateful day Kaladin searched the battlefield for his brother, when he finally found Tien he called out. Syl and other windspren allowed his voice to carry over the den of the battlefield and attract Tien’s notice thereby distracting him. He’s killed right in front of Kaladin.
Kaladin who had sworn to protect his beloved little brother had failed. If only he had gotten there in time. If only he had been faster, stronger. If he had more skill he could have helped him. Kaladin breaks. And Syl moves in.
Pattern the scholar finds Shallan as a child. Her artist talents and natural curiosity attract him, as does her will to see the best in people. He likely manipulates either Shallan herself or finds a way for one of her tutors to somehow introduce the First Oath into the young girl’s studies.
For one reason or another, she recites the oath. Pattern begins the process to bond her, but she is a happy child. He can’t quite use her like she is. But ah, there is a way, she has a mother that belongs to a religious cult. She’s a fanatic. Her father is not, to him his daughter is his life.
So pattern teaches the young child to make pretty pictures and sounds with light–right in front of mommy dearest. Pattern gives her a way to defend herself via matricide. In steps Lin to the rescue willing to take the blame. Shallan breaks, but also represses. Now the tricky part. Pattern has to wait for his opportunity to rise again. As a side effect, he temporarily regresses mentally.
Ivory found the Jasnah Kohlin making waves among the nobility and Vorin priesthood. A young, brilliant scholar, she was not afraid to speak out about her doubts as she traveled the world in search for the truth. She viewed nothing beyond her capacity to learn and no one as her “better.”
She was also arrogant and stiff-necked, and thought she new more than she really did. So he began to appear before her, along with some of his lesser cousins. She was unnerved but she needed something more. She needed to lose one of the foundations of her private little world.
Her father the king was brokering a treaty with the Listeners. Wouldn’t it be interesting if they found out about some of his theological plans…? Gavilar is murdered with his daughter present. Jasnah breaks, and Ivory moves in with formal introductions.
Wyndle and Glys likely needed little to no direct involvement in the circumstances of Renarin and Lift ‘breaking.”
The life of an autistic, probably epileptic second son of a famous war hero and younger brother to the kingdom’s most eligible bachelor and an accomplished solider is his own right probably has plenty of opportunities for mental and physical hardships.
Lift is a street urchin. Despite her colorful math with regards to her own age, she is still young–very young to have visited the Night Watcher–and lives with a permanent curse and boon. She has a good heart for a thief who lives on the street, but she’s certainly known hardships a plenty.
#
For the first three we see a clear pattern (pun intended) of a close family member being murdered right in front of the proto-radiant–in Shallan’s case by her own hand in self defense. Coincidence or conspiracy?
For Radiants and Allomancers being broken seems to be a prerequisite for accessing magic, but it doesn’t determine the kind of magic and isn’t sufficient on its own. Spren probably choose Radiants whose personality is compatible with dedicating their life to the ideals/oaths of a specific order.
I would like to put my own 2 cents on the sword vs. Spear.
In Chinese Martial Art (where I have gotten most of my training and knowledge), there is a saying that roughly translate as the following: “An inch longer, an inch stronger.” – which suggested that spear is, all things being equal, will gain an edge on swords.
The reasons I think are these: 1. The length is a huge advantage. By merely holding a spear, you are forcing the sword handler to take certain strategies – a very dangerous one no less – which you probably should have techniques/strategies to counter against.
2. Due to the length again, spear has an advantage of being activeness (unfortunately, there is not direct translation here. So please go with me for right now). On the surface, there is the activeness of striking first, and more (purely due to the length). I mean, imagine the advantage of able to keep striking, at any place you want, the pace you want, and the rhythm you want: you are in a position to not loose! (of course, assuming that you can keep the swordman out of your inner circle. If this happened, it would almost be a complete opposite story). On another level, now you are forcing your opponent to take certain strategy. It is sort of like making a move in chess, which forces your opponent to make another move that you already anticipate and count for.
I will also like to discuss about the mastery thingy of Kaladin. We established that Syl would at least enhance Kal’s physical talent (i.e. spear). Since Surgery is at least as much an art (that is similar to spear playing) as a science, therefore Syl would be able to improve such skill. We know that Kal was very talented with Surgery, thus it seems reasonable to conclude that Syl was “there” (though the word is a bit fuzzy when we are talking about spren) with Kal as early as his early teen. Which has an interesting implication: it seems to suggest the possibility that sprens would know/bond the person at a very early age (Shallan, Lift, Kal? to name a few. Except Dalinar, the rest seems to be ambiguous enough to be one way or another.).
Just purely for my amusement and academic curiosity, when Syl said “no, and yes.” I sorta chuckle within me. Someone has definitely learned some modern physics and/or math here. No wonder Kal was totally confused, he was about a few centuries behind! Of course, there is the Schrodinger cat explanation: she was both there and not there unless being looked at (which coincidentally, Kal didn’t). Another parallel, which I think was more likely, is similar to in Topology, a set could be both open and close. It is possible that she is half pulled into this world – or she coexists in both this world and the cognitive realm. Therefore she was there, and not there (since she is also in cognitive realm. Since cognitive realm is by definition not the physical world, therefore she is “not there”). Alternatively, she could be everywhere in the physical world simultaneously. Since she is at everywhere, thus she is there, but also not there – to name a few possible mechanisms of being both there and not there. I suppose that Sprens and stormlight would make some really really interesting research topics.
Oh, one last thing on the Prophecy. It is a very thorny issue. Everytime when we messing with time, things would get really funky. I agree with some of the posters that secrecy might be the best solution. Since after publishing the prophecies, we/they don’t know whether the action or the lack of due to the prophecy would lead to the fulfillment of the prophecy. It is also interesting to understand what “type/system” of prophecy the world is using.
So I don’t think the spren are malicious, even accidentally…but I admit I also wouldn’t want Syl or Pattern to be evil (they’re two of my favorite characters). There is definitely something pragmatic about them and their return though: the spren are as interested in their own self-preservation as the people on Roshar (and they’re more aware of Odium). I guess my biggest problem with them being malicious is just how vulnerable the bonding process seems to make them – we’ve seen they can come back, between both Kaladin and Shallan, but especially in the case of Pattern there seems no assurance of that – he went years without being able to manifest, and it looks like that is entirely lost time. He couldn’t anticipate the repression, of course, but he definitely knew the risk was there…but I can understand being worried.
For my two cents, I wouldn’t be surprised if the ability to form the Nahel bond is genetic (beyond just being restricted to humans), but I hope it’s not the case. Instead, I want it to be more a case of something else being genetic that often causes the potential for the Nahel bond.
My theory is that the breaks that spren need for the bond aren’t necessarily from trauma, but from when a person doesn’t fit in as well socially and the conflict that causes. Admittedly this could just be because of how singular protagonists appear, but so far most of the proto-Radiants have been separated from being able to fit in easily. Kaladin of course is obvious (with his seasonal affective disorder and depression), but Jasnah always seemed to keep herself aloof from her peers, while Dalinar was over-aggressive in his youth. I don’t think I need to mention Renarin’s troubles fitting in, and Lift was always the odd one out as an urchin (although that’s hard to judge since we’ve only seen her while she’s been on the run). Shallan is the only one we don’t have evidence for, because she was always kept isolated for what we’ve seen.
So then why would genetics apply to this? Well, mental conditions when not recognized can cause trouble with people integrating into society, and although poorly understood there are indications that these conditions have genetic factors.
We’re told a broken soul has cracks in it: those cracks can be made from an event that breaks a soul, but maybe the cracks the spren need are ones that are there from the beginning?
@137 FenrirMoridin
I wouldn’t say the spren that are responsible for Nahael bonds are malicious either. But spren aren’t truly “good” or “evil” they are fundamental characteristics of nature and thought–also a part of nature in the Cosmere–given sentience.
If the Spren really are orchestrating events to make bonding a candidate possible, they are doing it simply because that is what and who they are. Forrest fires are destructive things, but there are many species of plants that do not release seeds until a fire activates them. Take away the fires, and you eventually destroy the biosphere of the western United States.
All that being said, Brandon believes in a basic goodness of virtually all people–something that is apparent with most of his characters. For all that my conspiracy theory is my current working head canon, I would honestly be surprised if it turns out to be exactly right.
@129: I usually browse over the 17th Shard to find them. They always end up there.
@130: I do not recall where you or others were saying Adolin’s Blade was inherited. I must have skipped this part, else I would have specified it. He won it dueling at a very young age. I have inklings it may have been his first duel, but this is not confirmed, as far as I know. One of my deepest wish is to learn more about this specific duel where a young teenager took out a veteran in a fight everyone took him for a loser. I just WANT to read Adolin win his Blade, but we are unlikely to get this scene.
It is has been a pet-theory that Adolin’s Blade is not originated from Alethkar. Why? The clues I have are Oathbringer. Brandon confirmed Oathbringer was a book while specifying Shardblades often get famous and their names were passed down from one yielder to another, generation through generation. Hence, I deduced Dalinar did not name his Blade. It also explains why everyone keeps referring to dead king Galivar’s Blade as Firestorm.
So Blades usually have names which are passed down as they acquire fame.
Adolin’s Blade is nameless which means his was not one of the “famous” ones. Had it had a “famous” name attached to it, surely Adolin would have been “forced” to keep it, but he didn’t. He refused to name it, which assumes the Blade was nameless when he won it or Tallanvor had just given it a random name that bore no significance. In other words, his Blade can’t have acquired much fame on Alethi soils which gives credeance to the theory it was likely won in a foreign war and brought back to Alethkar.
Now I do agree this is not much to chew on, but I had thought of this. I had also consider he may be blood related to the former knight of the Blade via his mother’s ancestry, but this is a long shot and it sounds too much like Deus Ex Machina.
I personally wish the Nahel bond to not be hereditary. I don’t like when people end up with magic powers simply because of their blood lines. I prefer when they actually deserve it.
@133: Renarin presumably healed his eyesight after saying the first oath. It is assumed Glys did manifest itself before, but it took him a long time to say the oath. I have theorized healing his eyesight was a deliberate use of stormlight as opposed to an unconscious one (eyesight is not a life threatening injury). I have also theorized Renarin is much more advanced then he lets on. I suspect Glyas has been with him until at least early WoK and probably before, which would explain Wit’s early comment of him not being as “fragile” as Dalinar thinks.
Kaladin lost his stormlight because he went into a school yard fight with Adolin simply to show of. He was not protecting anyone and he was misusing his powers. It gives credeance to my theory intent is what matters and not actions.
I personally do not think any spren has chosen Adolin yet. Remember he died in the first draft of the story, so he was not meant to be a Radiant. However, the very last WoB on him suggest the Adolin we see at the end, whose morality strongly clashes with Dalinar, is the Adolin his mother raised, the one who would not stand idly by injustice and wrongs, the one who could not let, in good conscience, let Sadeas walk away. My new crack-pot theory is Adolin changed after his mother died and started to emulate his father more, forgetting who he truly was until recent events where he has been, slowly, going back to the boy he once was. I have always assumed, unlike most readers, Adolin was the one who was the most affected by his mother’s death and not Renarin, but it was swept away as, being the oldest, he was assumed to be alright.
That being said, the reason Adolin is spen less in a spren full family would thus be linked to his refusal to acknowledge his true self in order to favor his father’s strict and twisted sense of honor. Out of love, but being just a kid he got lost in the middle of it. Now he is back.
@138wcarter: While it’s true there are destructive acts of nature, those don’t also have the thought in them to be planned. They just…happen. So far the two major tragedies we’ve had insight into, Kaladin and Shallan’s…well you showed it well above: even for Syl’s set-up there would need to be some modicum of thought, and Pattern’s would need to be a plan. So they deliberately plan out how to make it so someone bonds them…besides the fact that seems out of character for either Syl or Pattern, if this is a deeper truth of the spren it seems like it’d be too obvious to be something the KRs discovered late – we know there were scholarly KRs in the past, so Desolation after Desolation happened and it was only that last one where someone connected the dots and realized an awful lot of people had convenient tragedies when they bonded their spren.
Although I think you’re right about Sanderson generally liking to have a mostly good cast, just from a logical perspective it seems like a hard sell for the spren to be orchestrating these events, although it is an interesting headcanon.
Part of what makes me excited for Dalinar’s flashback is that it might help us crack open what opens someone to a spren. Because even considering the fact that Dalinar’s spren is special, any kind of significant breaking event occurred quite a while before he officially bonded the Stormfather imo.
@139 Gepeto – you keep on saying that Adolin was killed in the first graft of WoK. Question is which first draft was Brandon referring to? In a book signing I attended, I remember Brandon saying he started writing WoK when he was 15. So, was it when Brandon was 15 or when he was already an adult and had sold the idea of the book?
@140:
I am not entirely sure. I believe the WoB said “first draft” of WoK, not WoR Prime which is how he refers to his early writings in the Stormlight Archive world. You may have to wait till I get back home for me to fish out the exact wording, but my understanding was he referred to the draft he was asked to change as Dalinar’s inner monologue was confusing. Following this comments, he added Adolin as a POV character to express the duality over the visions: are they true or not? Having Dalinar make these thoughts by himself was apparently not convincing.
Therefore Adolin survived the book. Another WoB also stated Brandon thought the character worked really well which forced him to re-write his entire story arc to give him a bigger role (what is bigger then dead though is yet to be seen).
None of this is entirely clear, there is a lot of fishing out on my part and I may have misinterpret the words, so keep that in mind.
However, the combination of these two WoB leads me to believe: 1) Adolin is not part of the original casting of SA. He was a character, but either he died early on or remained very minor, 2) Since he is not part of the original casting, he was not casted as one of the 10 major Radiants, 3) Adolin initial story arc most probably did not call for him to become a Radiant at all, 4) Him having a spren has never been part of the story.
That being said, what will Brandon do with the character now? Well we know for sure he is not one of the 10 major protagonists. He certainly is not getting flashbacks or a dedicated book. Can he grow as a character nonetheless? I hope he can. He sure is more important than many supposedly more important characters.
My hope is thus he will keep on playing a large role in the forthcoming story. My wildest hope is Brandon would revise his plans and give us some flashbacks (perhaps not a whole book, but a few chapters) and a strong focus on him in one of the books, but it probably won’t happen. My worst fear is he’ll keep on playing the second fiddle to the other characters. Either ways, I think book 3 is do or die for him as a character. If Brandon does not give him a strong focus after the events in WoR, then it means the character is going to become secondary.
I do not know what this would do to my interest in SA, but it will be one huge deception.
@wcarter
Thinking about this some more (or overthinking it as the case might be); if the spren were involved in the breaking of the knights it would be only because that’s there nature. The spren are too mindless in the physical word to really plot things in how their person would break.
@142 okay but I still don’t understand why you keep on saying that Adolin cannot be anything but what he is today in the books. I understand that your main bone of contention is because he is not being given a book. But I do understand why. Brandon needs to keep the storyline going. Szeth and Eshonai are getting books because only them can tell the story of their people, logically, that is.
if Renarin is getting a book, it’s because of him being in the autism spectrum. I don’t know who are the others. If Lift is getting a book it’s because she has to tell the story of Iri and the Nightwatcher.
I am not Brandon so I really don’t know and I can be entirely wrong. But I can follow logic. And from hear had been mentioned and said in interviews, everything make sense.
I
wcarter @134
Nice theories! But Pattern may have only had the attention span of a goldfish and virtually no long term memory when he first met Shallan. Could he have taught her Lightweaving skills at that stage of their relationship? Dunno.
millitiz @136
Basically same comment as above, but wrt. Syl teaching Kal surgery so early in their relationship.
kei_rin @143
But spren are quite the schemers in the Cognitive Realm. I’m not saying that seals the deal, but it is something to keep in mind.
Off to the new post.
If you want to read a whole series of WoB on Adolin and his various developments, go to
http://www.theoryland.com/intvsresults.php?kw=Adolin
The things Brandon was thinking of doing with him at various points have changed quite a bit; I think it’s stretching pretty far to say that because of this one or that one or two WoB, we can determine that Adolin is never going to be a KR, or really anything else about his future.
FWIW, I find the theoryland interview search database a much easier place to find things. It has the drawback of being combined WoT and Cosmere information, so sometimes a keyword search will get you a whole raft of Robert Jordan quotes instead of the Brandon Sanderson ones you were looking for, but it’s still a lot easier than scrounging the 17th Shard for them. It’s maintained by the same people, so all the WoBs the 17th Shard folks post will eventually end up in the theoryland database. If you want all the discussion about it, by all means find it on 17thShard, but if you just want the WoB, go to theoryland. Or look it up in the Coppermind and click on the footnote link to theoryland.
Alice, I just wanted to specify I did not mean Adolin will never become a KR based on these WoB. I meant to say it was not the original plan for him which makes it doubtful he would have been chosen as a child by a spren having yet to manifest itself.
Also, since it was not the original plan, I also doubt he would be the main KR of any order shall his new story line gear in that direction.
@125 – Re: WoB for Nahel Bond
This is the best one I could find: http://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=608 (click and then scroll down to Question #15. If that doesn’t work, just go to Theoryland’s Interview database and click on “Nahel Bond.”
I feel that I’ve seen it more clearly defined elsewhere, but I can’t find it. If you have a few spare hours you could always go on 17th Shard and review the various Words of Brandon. Speaking of which…
(ETA: I swear sometimes Alice/Wetlander swoops in while I’m typing and addresses a topic or two that I was going to cover! :-) Oh, well; great minds, and all that. Let me just echo her recommendation for Theoryland.)
@129 – Re: WoB URLs
Here are two lists of compiled WoBs on 17th Shard:
http://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/6605-words-of-brandon-compiled/ and
http://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/7267-words-of-brandon-compiled-x-2/
These aren’t complete lists, by the way. But a good start.
You can also go to the Theoryland Interview Database. (ETA: as Alice mentioned above)
Good luck!
@139 – I don’t think Blades usually have names that are passed down. Adolin specifically states that some Blades are named and some are not while talking to his Blade before his duel, in WoR Chapter 14, “Ironstance”:
From this we learn that some Blades don’t’ have names. The reader could also speculate that some Shardbearers name/rename their Blades when they acquire them.
Also, Adolin felt that Tinalar dueled him to embarrass his father:
So the question to ask is, who is Tinalar? Was he an Alethi Shardbearer or was he from another kingdom? Why would Tinalar wish to embarrass Dalinar? I would speculate that he was an Alethi rival due to his vendetta against Dalinar, but it’s just a guess. Who knows; maybe Tinalar won it from another kingdom and then decided to use it to take out his vendetta on Dalinar in whatever way he could, like you speculated. Or maybe Tinalar had the Blade and was part of one of the Alethi princedoms that Dalinar, Gavilar and Sadeas conquered. Maybe Tinalar still had a bad taste in his mouth regarding that and was biding his time until he could strike back at Dalinar. It’s all just speculation. Like you, I would like to get more backstory on this someday.
@148: Pertaining Blades and naming… There is WoB on the matter stating the name of famous Blades were passed down, which implies Adolin’s was not one of such, unlike Oathbrigner.
I yearn to have more background info on Adolin’s early dueling career.
Just thought of something last night:
All Pattern says about the dead Shardblades is that spren do not “unbreak” without help. He doesn’t put the requirement that the help be from the original knight that bonded the blade. So maybe Syl might thinks it needs the original Knight because the process is difficult and requires some type of bond. But dead Shardblades have a type of pseudo-bond with the people who wield them now. So maybe that bond is good enough.
kei_rin @150 – re: Adolin reawakening his Blade
(Edited because I did that in a hurry, and when I looked at it, the formatting was just ALL wrong. ;) Because I’m a bit OC that way.)
D’oh! I guess that means that pseudo-bond isn’t enough. Back to drawing board!
@151 & 152
I also ran across the snippet Alice quoted recently…and was struck by the qualifier “…in most cases…” That still leaves the question about Adolin reviving his blade open, if a very remote possibility. Ya never know with BWS until it’s a done deal.
@153: Effectively, in all WoB pertaining Adolin and his Blade, Brandon has always been careful to not refute the idea completely while not outright stating it was happening. He has been very clever in his answering, I believe.
I’m catching up on the old posts. You guys, 154 comments and no one wanted to talk about Rlain/Shen?
Thanks to the helpful Stormwatch we know this is the same day that Adolin was out talking to Eshonai. We’re told in that chapter that one of the bridgemen with him was the parshman. So Rlain got to see the changes in Eahonai first hand and then decided to leave that night. On wonder he is troubled. His people need him home more than they need a spy. His story is pretty tragic so far.
Quote from the current week’s reread:
“For being a spy,” Rlain said. “A spy for a people who, it appears, no longer exist.” He said this to a different beat, and Kaladin thought he could sense pain in that voice. Rock walked over and put a hand on Rlain’s shoulder.”
All I wanna know is how the heck Kaladin knows Szeth’s name. I think this is a mistake.
Oh, nevermind.