Welcome back to the Words of Radiance Reread on Tor.com! Last week, we saw Stormform Eshonai sorting her people into stormform-wannabees and everyone else, leaving us to wonder whether the real Eshonai was somehow trying to protect the remnant. This week, we rejoin Kaladin in his cell for story-time with Wit. Bafflement ahoy!
This reread will contain spoilers for The Way of Kings, Words of Radiance, and any other Cosmere book that becomes relevant to the discussion. The index for this reread can be found here, and more Stormlight Archive goodies are indexed here.
Click on through to join the discussion!
Chapter 59: Fleet
Point of View: Kaladin
Setting: Kholin warcamp prison
Symbology: Spears, Nalan, Joker
IN WHICH Kaladin complains about his too-nice prison cell; he hears a lot of unintelligible shouting down the hall; he considers trying to draw Stormlight from the lamp outside his cell; he also considers the possibility of breaking out; he argues with Syl about Dalinar, Elhokar, and Syl’s statement that it would be different this time; Wit makes snarky remarks from a bench outside the cell; Kaladin is surly about it; Wit begins playing his strange musical instrument, asking Kaladin what he sees; Kaladin finally responds, and Wit builds the story of Fleet around Kaladin’s responses; the interpretation is unclear; Wit leaves.
Quote of the Week
“Dalinar can go rot. He let this happen.”
“He tried to—”
“He let it happen!” Kaladin snapped, turning and slamming his hands against the bars. Another storming cage. He was right back where he’d begun! “He’s the same as the others,” Kaladin growled.
Syl zipped over to him, coming to rest between the bars, hands on hips. “Say that again.”
“He…” Kaladin turned away. Lying to her was hard. “All right, fine. He’s not. But the king is. Admit it, Syl. Elhokar is a terrible king. At first he lauded me for trying to protect him. Now, at the snap of his fingers, he’s willing to execute me. He’s a child.”
“Kaladin, you’re scaring me.”
“Am I? You told me to trust you, Syl. When I jumped down into the arena, you said this time things would be different. How is this different?”
She looked away, seeming suddenly very small.
“Even Dalinar admitted that the king had made a big mistake in letting Sadeas wiggle out of the challenge,” Kaladin said. “Moash and his friends are right. This kingdom would be better off without Elhokar.”
Syl dropped to the floor, head bowed.
It’s impossible, now, not to see the beginnings of the broken bond in this argument. ::sniffle::
Also: Kaladin, if things aren’t any different this time, it’s your own storming fault. Quit blaming everyone else—especially Syl—for the results of your impetuous behavior. Sure, Elhokar did something stupid. But you did something stupid first, setting up the situation. Stop playing I’m Just A Victim Here, and admit your own culpability.
Question: Why doesn’t Syl point this out to him? Does she not see it? Or is she not allowed?
Commentary
Thus begins Part Four: The Approach. While the title may have many other implications, the most transparent is that this entire Part is leading up to the march on Narak and the Everstorm. The last chapter in Part Four includes the final bit of decision-making, and the first chapter in Part Five is the staging of the combined armies.
For now, though… here sits Kaladin, sulking in his cell, convinced that everything is someone else’s fault—the lighteyes, the king, the spren, anyone but himself. He’s a bitter, bitter man right now, and that bitterness is already beginning to work its way out in all manner of downward-spiraling ways. It’s not only making him miserable, it’s making Syl miserable, and it’s eating away at their bond. He’s letting it interfere with the truths he knows about Dalinar, and blocking his ability to see new truth as it is presented. I’m actually surprised that Wit managed to get through to him at all, in this state. I guess there’s something to be said for a captive audience.
(Okay, groan. Yes, I know. I did it on purpose.)
The thing that’s really bugging me is that, in general, I like Kaladin, and I like all he’s set up to become. He’s a natural leader in many ways, and he’s all about protecting those he considers his responsibility. That’s great, and it suits a Windrunner very well. What I dislike is that he thinks he wants to be a team player—but he wants to do it on his own terms. It doesn’t work that way—especially when you aren’t qualified to be the coach.
Moving on… I had to snicker a bit at Wit’s appearance.
Kaladin scrambled up to his feet. Wit sat on a bench by the far wall, outside the cell and under the spheres, tuning some kind of strange instrument on his lap made of taut strings and polished wood. He hadn’t been there a moment ago. Storms… had the bench even been there before?
It’s a good question. Heh.
I love the way Wit goads Kaladin into making suggestions about the story: he plays his harp (or whatever it is—electric guitar?) and waits for Kaladin to tell him what the music provokes in his imagination. Each time Kaladin makes a statement, Wit turns it into a versified chant, expanding on it and explaining the a background for the suggestion, never actually going beyond what Kaladin said. Then he waits until Kaladin moves the story forward again. So in large part, it’s a story about Kaladin, or at least about Kaladin’s frame of mind.
Essentially, it’s a story about a legendary runner named Fleet, who could outrun anything, even the Herald Chanarach. Eventually, with no one left to challenge, he challenged the highstorm itself, running before the storm across the entire continent. It almost caught him in the central mountains, but then he reached the divide and gained ground. Again, it almost caught him in the mountains guarding Shinovar, but he managed to stay ahead of it, if only just. His strength finally failed and he collapsed… but the storm was spent as well, and could not pass the point where he fell.
Even though it was (at least in one sense) his own bad-tempered statement that ended the story there, Kaladin is shocked that Wit agrees with him, that Fleet died. But… the story isn’t over.
“Upon that land of dirt and soil,” Wit shouted, “our hero fell and did not stir! His body spent, his strength undone, Fleet the hero was no more.
“The storm approached and found him there. It stilled and stopped upon its course! The rains they fell, the winds they blew, but forward they could not progress.
“For glory lit, and life alive, for goals unreached and aims to strive. All men must try, the wind did see. It is the test, it is the dream.”
Kaladin stepped slowly up to the bars. Even with eyes open, he could see it. Imagine it.
“So in that land of dirt and soil, our hero stopped the storm itself. And while the rain came down like tears, our Fleet refused to end this race. His body dead, but not his will, within those winds his soul did rise.
“It flew upon the day’s last song, to win the race and claim the dawn. Past the sea and past the waves, our Fleet no longer lost his breath. Forever strong, forever fast, forever free to race the wind.”
Kaladin (and perhaps the reader) is left wondering what it means, because stories have meaning. But when he asks Wit, the answer is merely that since it’s Kaladin’s story, he must decide what it meant.
“The storm caught him,” Kaladin said.
“The storm catches everyone, eventually. Does it matter?”
“I don’t know.”
“Good.” Wit tipped his sword up toward his forehead, as if in respect. “Then you have something to think about.”
He left.
I love that ending. And I should probably have ended with it, but I have to comment. (Hey, it’s my job, right?) It’s an amazing story for a developing Windrunner, one who can indeed race the wind and win (as long as he doesn’t run out of Stormlight). Sadly, Kaladin is too lost in his own personal frustrations to see the connection, and we have no evidence he actually spent any time thinking further about it.
Stormwatch
This chapter takes place on Kaladin’s third day in prison—the first being the day of the duel—so there are now 26 days left in the countdown.
Sprenspotting
Oh, my poor dear Sylphrena. Watching her droop in this chapter is painful, especially now that we know where this attitude of Kaladin’s is leading. *sigh*
There are a couple of other interesting notes, though. One odd tidbit I noticed was that part of Kaladin’s complaint about his cell was the lack of exposure; he missed the wind. The solitude wasn’t an issue, the lack of wind was. Is this significant of his connection to windspren through his honorspren? Or is it just a general lack-of-fresh-air problem?
Another (though it seems “old news” by now, we were pretty enthusiastic when we first saw it) was this one:
She lifted her chin. “I’m no highspren. Laws don’t matter; what’s right matters.”
Highspren have, I believe, been confirmed as the Skybreaker-spren; this highlights a major difference between honorspren & highspren—and therefore, between Windrunners and Skybreakers—and one that we should all be cognizant of, even for ourselves. There is sometimes a distinction between what is legal and what is moral; there is even, sometimes, a case where moral conduct requires opposition to an unjust law. Even more than real life (for most of us), Roshar seems to have plenty of these cases, from Alethkar to Shinovar. Realistic worldbuilding FTW?
It does make me wonder: in the old days, was there frequent conflict between Skybreakers who judged guilt or innocence solely according to law, and Windrunners who judged action according to moral values rather than legal? Where did the other Orders fit along this spectrum, or did they care?
Back to the chapter…
Haven’t We Met Somewhere Before?
Well, hello, Hoid. Lightweaving, or just personal insight and clever storytelling?
Also, this little Easter egg regarding other places he’s been and things he’s done:
Wit leaned down to tune his instrument, one leg crossed over the other. He hummed softly to himself and nodded. “Perfect pitch,” Wit said, “makes this all so much easier than it once was….”
I think we can take it as a given that he holds at least 200 Breaths, just in case you were curious. I suppose it’s possible there are other ways he could have acquired perfect pitch, but this is the sort of thing Brandon throws in for the obsessive overly detail-oriented very thorough among us to find and squee over.
Staging Note: the epigraphs of Part Four form a letter which responds to the letter of the TWoK Part Two epigraphs. Feel free to comment on them as we go, particularly if you notice a connection between the epigraph and the chapter content. I, however, will be dealing with them in total as a separate post at the end of Part Four, just before the next set of Interludes. Just so you know.
Heraldic Symbolism
Nalan, Judge, Herald of Justice and patron of the Skybreakers. Because Kaladin deserves to be in prison? Because he doesn’t? Because Syl mentions the highspren? The Joker, wild card, jester, Wit. Because Wit.
Well. That was cheery. Let’s go hit the comment thread, and then come back next week for a much more positive chapter—at long last—as Shallan starts out practicing Scholarship and ends up practicing Lightweaving.
Alice Arneson is a long-time Tor.com commenter and Sanderson beta-reader. Back when she started all this fandom business, though, it was with the Wheel of Time and Leigh Butler’s famous WoT Reread. It’s suitable, then, that she went out as Cadsuane last night to acquire a signed copy of the final release: the Wheel of Time Companion. Yes, of course Cadsuane.
Alice, you wrote: “It’s impossible, now, not to see the beginnings of the broken bond in this argument.” If you are suggesting that the nahel bond can be broken over an elongated period of time, I disagree. Based upon what we saw in Dalinar’s vision, I think the break is instantaneous. I agree that Kaldin’s action (both before and after this scene) took him down a path where he came dangerously close to breaking the bond. Perhaps his attitude weakens the bond (which may explain later that Syl appears to act more childish than usual). As with a ligament, there is a point in time where the bond just snaps. At this point it is broken and (from the text we have seen so far and opinion of the Spren) non repairable. Had Kaladin’s bond with Syl been broken, it would not have been possible for him to say the 3rd Oath later in the book.
Thanks for reading my musings
AndrewHB
aka the musespren
Kaladin does think about the story of Fleet. He mentions it latter on when interacting with Ekhokar in a rather climactic scene.
I believe that Hoid intended the story to impart a life’s message to Kaladin not to be diverted or discouraged by the ‘slings and arrows of outrageous fortune’ , but to pursue and expand his protective mission. I also believe that the Fleet tale is an important hint at Kaladin’s future. It seems clear that Fleet is Kaladin, the Windrunner who is energized by the wind and storm, and the race against the Highstorm is the impossible mission that Kaladin will assume. That mission will cost him his life, but his cause will have prevailed. Kaladin keeps this story in mind and uses it to bolster his resolve to protect Elhokar despite being mortally wounded by his erstwhile friend, Moash. That action saves him, restores his bond with Syl, and allows him to progress to full Knighthood.
The imprisonment and Kaladin’s resulting dour mood leaves Syl dejected, as well. She knew Kaladin’s obsession with vengeance towards Amaram, yet she neglected to warn him about guarding his tongue after achieving a remarkable victory. Of course, her priority was to encourage Kaladin’s need to protect those under his care, and she couldn’t know that Kaladin was going to demand a vengeance duel against Amaram, yet she somehow feels responsible. She may also feel that Kaladin will not accept the responsibility for his rash words in his current mood. All in all, a sad chapter. Yet there is promise due to Hoid’s ministrations which somehow come at important junctures in the lives of our protagonists.
I think the story about Fleet rather fitting as Kaladin will “race” the storm later in the story when he’s fighting Szeth. I know it’s not really looked at as a race against the storm at that point, but I couldn’t help comparing the two.
I honestly think this was my favorite chapter from the book.
So many things to consider, first and most importantly is Hoid telling the story or is Kaladin telling it. Is it like Skarpi says in another book by another author all “just one story” and Hoid can tell pieces of it. Like the Worldship story in book 1, did this actually happen?
Or am I reading more into this than there is, maybe Hoid is just so insightful that he lead Kaladin towards a story that fits his mood and has the right lesson.
And about that, I’m not really sure what the lesson is: it’s the effort that counts and what you accomplish in life because in the end we all die – aka journey before destination. Seems a bit hypocritical coming from the immortal Hoid :)
The next thing that I love is the talk between Kaladin and Syl, and here I’m going to disagree with Alice (and other readers) that Kaladin brought this on himself. Well, technically he did, but Syl was insistent he’d do it, that this time will be different, and it’s really not. Where’s the Honor in how dark-eyes are treated? Why is it fine to fight with weapons against the dishonor of unequal combat but it’s wrong to fight with words by requesting same privileges as a light-eyes against the dishonor of racial profiling? He’s perfectly justified in being mad with her and she’s right feeling ashamed (which is how I interpreted it).
Lastly, right and wrong, like laws, are also subject to interpretation. What Syl considers right, I’m sure Odium will consider wrong, and even more what us as readers from Earth consider right might be even more erroneous to someone from Roshar. Ethics are taught, and even “natural” rights and wrongs (if you believe they exist) will probably change from planet to planet, “nature” to “nature”
I don’t think this is entirely fair. Kaladin’s a guy with a strong spirit and a lot of potential, but the deck of Alethi society is stacked against him. Many of his thoughts about the unfairness and abuse in Alethkar are correct. We should expect a man who has had Kaladin’s experience with lighteyes to come away bitter and determined to change things. He lacks the social graces of someone raised in the upper class and he’s had to fight for everything he’s received in the series to this point.
Yes, his behavior at the duel can be seen as impetuous, but this is where there’s a disconnect between us as readers and Kaladin as a character. If we’d lived Kaladin’s life, we’d probably do the things Kaladin has done, hold the attitudes he holds, and be justified in doing so. Because we want so badly for Kaladin to be better than those who oppress him, he comes in for a lot of criticism when he fails to meet those lofty standards.
It’s not really fair to expect him to be the better man in every circumstance, to take the slights and the prejudices against him without losing his composure. But that’s what Knights Radiant are, they’re the people who do things above and beyond what we expect from normal people.
He’s just not there yet. Kaladin has to go through these growing pains to transition from a normal person to a more virtuous one. That’s why it’s hard for me to fault him too much for this. He’s a very believable person, tasked with doing something almost impossible. The stumbling is part of the journey. We can’t always apply the expectations for the end of the journey to someone who has just taken his first steps.
The Fleet story reads like an origin story for the way the storms work on Roshar. It’s not quite the same, but it has a lot of aspects of a myth attempting to explain natural phenomena.
Quick comment re: Sprenspotting –
Alice, you asked whether there was frequent conflict between the Windrunners and Skybreakers in the old days.
In the epigraph of Chapter 54 we are almost assured that there was:
Pretty straight forward that they didn’t see eye to eye, there (I wonder what constitutes a “great debate” between Knights Radiant)?
I also think it’s noteworthy that Syl makes the distinction between the two orders and/or their spren multiple times in WoR. In Chapter 22, Syl straight up rebukes Kaladin with the: “You’re not a Skybreaker, Kaladin,” when he talks about finding his own justice.
I guess the comparison/contrast of Windrunner/Skybreaker could be seen as one of the themes for Words of Radiance, as we have the contrast of Kaladin (Windrunner) doing what he feels is right, and Szeth (Skybreaker) doing what he believes (whether the reader agrees with it or not) he should according to his word, or the word of the law he follows (even Nalan comments on Szeth’s dedication to it in Chapter 88).
@several – Oh, I find Kaladin a totally believable character. I still get mad at him – and anyone else who does it – for blaming everything on someone else and refusing to acknowledge his own responsibility. We all do it sometimes, and some people do it more than others. Sure, there’s rationale for his attitudes, and the social rules are unfair. That’s pretty much always true. But despite all that: if Kaladin had played by the team plan and kept his mouth shut, or at least waited until the team goal was accomplished to get mouthy, things would have turned out very differently.
NONE of it is Syl’s fault, and blaming her because he got cocky is indefensible. Blame Elhokar for his response. Blame Adolin for leaving the loophole. Blame Dalinar, and Navani, and Shallan, and Renarin, and all of Team Kholin, for not noticing the loophole, or not making sure they knew exactly what was said, or whatever. Blame Sadeas and Ialai for pushing everyone to try to destroy the Kholins. Blame Elit for being a lame loser. Blame Relis for escalating hostilities. Blame Jakamav and Abrobadar for going along with the scheme. Blame Sadeas for taking advantage of the chaos to slip away. They all bear some part of the blame for the way things went down. But along with all that, blame Kaladin for shoving his size 10s into the opportunity they had worked so hard to achieve, without considering anything beyond his own personal chance for vengeance.
@8: Thank you Alice for stating it out loud. Kaladin spends an annoying amount of time, in book, playing at being a victim and blaming the entire world for his own false-comings.
This chapter is just another example of why Kaladin isn’t my favorite character, even though he ought to be. I love the fact that he’s a healer, I love that he’s a spearman when swordsmen are more valued, I love that he’s a dark eyes in a world run by bright eyes, and I love what he did with his bridge crew. He’s just so damned mopey and self-pitying, even when it seems like he’s past that, and I just can’t love him.
I do love Wit, though. And yes, Alice, I assumed his perfect pitch was thanks to Breaths. After all, we’ve seen at least one character from Nalthis in this book elsewhere (Vasher, of course, as Zahel, not to mention Nightblood at the end…)
I may be reading too much into it, but I think to Syl it doesn’t matter if it was partly Kaladin’s fault it didn’t turn out well: at the end of the day, she said it wouldn’t turn out a certain way but it still did. It’s odd for her to accept any blame for that considering it was all beyond her control, but we’ve seen Kaladin also do the same: maybe it’s one of the characteristics honorspren and their Windrunners share (or more specifically Kaladin and Syl)? Either that or, because of the nature of honorspren, any kind of oath/promise (even a casual “this will turn out x instead of y”) holds more weight than it arguably should – Kaladin later considers this when he is in a better mental state to notice Syl’s deteriorating condition and realizes he has two conflicting oaths.
Also, Kaladin does blame himself for losing them the chance at Sadeas (we saw this earlier and we’ll see it later): he just doesn’t blame himself for being put here. And in that regard, personally I’m inclined to agree with him. Although a lot of that is more in hindsight of the imprisonment bringing about pretty much nothing but pain with no constructive purpose.
@8 Alice –
I’m not contending that Kaladin doesn’t bear responsibility for his actions, just that the punishment far exceeds the severity of his “crime” here. If he was a lighteyes, there’s no doubt he would have been treated much differently. He was impulsive, but the plan’s failure is not on his shoulders.
@19 Gepeto –
Much of what has happened to Kaladin is not his fault. He’s been beaten up pretty badly by forces beyond his control. Those forces are usually related to way darkeyes are treated by Vorin/Alethi society. I have a really hard time telling someone who is habitually mistreated that he shouldn’t stand up for what he (and we as readers) think is right, even if it doesn’t make him the best team player in the moment.
@11 FenrirMoridin –
For Syl, I think it’s less about accepting blame, than about her regret that her words meant to encourage Kaladin ended up not being true. She, like us, wants the best for Kaladin and feels the same disappointment we do that things do not turn out as he’d hoped.
I am pretty sure the plan was – Adolin defeats two Shardbearers in an epic fight that will be remembered for decades, and then use that awesomeness to challenge Sadeas. So having Adolin, Renarin with just a Shardblade (and doing not much else besides standing there), and a guy armed with a normal spear and no armor defeat four full Shardbearers SHOULD have let him challenge Amaram.
If he had stuck with the plan, he would have stayed in the audience and watched Adolin being crippled and all of their Shards be lost.
It sounds to me like the differences between Skybreakers and Windrunners comes down to a difference in law interpretation. The Windrunners are strict spirit of the law types. They do what is right and don’t go in for loopholes and grey areas. The Skybreakers are letter of the law types. Bound by the words themselves more than the ideals they represent. Reminds me of Cato and Cicero and the Roman Republic.
I found it interesting that Wit’s performance didn’t draw any creationspren, or their musical equivalent. With perfect pitch, they should have been a given. Maybe only Roshar natives can draw them?
Cloric @15
Good observation.
Re; Wit’s entry into the jail
I can see where he may have used Lightweaving to get into the jail without the guards noticing. However, I think pretending to sit on a Lightwoven bench would get physically tedious after a short time. Or was the bench really there the whole time and Kal simply didn’t remember it? Or did Wit wander in unnoticed while the guards were distracted with the other commotion? Or maybe Wit was practicing Rosharan investiture too, and used the transportation surge.
Halien @12 – “I’m not contending that Kaladin doesn’t bear responsibility for his actions, just that the punishment far exceeds the severity of his “crime” here. If he was a lighteyes, there’s no doubt he would have been treated much differently. He was impulsive, but the plan’s failure is not on his shoulders.”
I’m not talking about the quality of the consequences – I’m talking about what got him “consequences” in the first place. He knew that the plan was for Adolin to win a spectacular duel, and challenge Sadeas to a duel on the strength of it – and he knew that dueling Sadeas was absolutely critical to the plans Dalinar was making. Obviously, given that Relis & co. exploited Adolin’s poor wording, there was no chance for the plan to succeed without intervention, and Kaladin’s intervention was what saved the day… as far as the duel itself. BUT BUT BUT – If Kaladin had been willing to stick with Dalinar’s plan and let the focus remain on forcing Sadeas into a duel with Adolin, things would have turned out much differently. He’d have been the hero of the Kholin warcamp; the Kholin family – especially Dalinar – would have more reason to trust him, listen to him, and honor him; Sadeas would have been pinned down and possibly discredited among the other highprinces, giving them the opportunity to move on. He might even have had a substantively better chance to convince Dalinar that Amaram was dodgy. Instead, he just had to shove his oar in and demand his self-perceived rights, and got thrown in prison for his effort. Never mind that we may think he should have had a right to demand the reward he wanted most; he shouldn’t have done it. And if he hadn’t done it, he wouldn’t be in prison. It’s not Syl’s fault, it’s his.
@12: Whereas it is not Kaladin’s fault he was beaten up and sold into slavery by a discriminating society, how he decides to deal with it entirely belongs to him.
He chose to see the lighteyes as nothing more than bullies looking forward to persecute the darkeyes. He chose to turn a blind eye to the live examples he was given of honorable lighteyes. He chose to victimize not only himself, but every single darkeyes claiming high and strong they would certainly rule better were they in charge.
His behavior entirely belongs to him and only him and while he may be justified to act so pitifully and selfishly, it does not change the fact it essentially is victimization. He has decided to believe the world was out there to get him and he was nothing more than a poor victim. He chose to dissociate the consequences, his imprisonment, from his actions. He chose to believe this even if it everything was explained to him. He chose to ignore Dalinar’s words because he chose to not trust him furthermore.
All in all, his attitude belongs to him and only him. Nobody enforced it on him, he decided by his own free-will to blame the entire world for his screw-up and he may be right, but should have acknowledge his own guilt in the affair more readily.
He may want to change the world, but he sure is not going to get there with this attitude.
@17: More eloquently said that I would have.
@17 & 18
Agree with you both. Kal’s actions can be rationalized all day long, and I completely accept those rationalizations. But that doesn’t change the fact that it was a choice (ETA–..he made to demand a boon. Blargh, just blargh.).
Halien @@@@@ 6 – Kaladin was a PRIVILEGED kid. He was born second nahn. He was studying to be a surgeon. He was supposed to marry Laral, who is lighteyes. As mentioned in WoK, only darkeyes of certain rank and those who had reached a certain achievement are allowed to marry lighteyes.
In today’s terms, Kaladin has affluenza. He was a big fish in a small pond. But, as we already know, things changed for him dramatically beginning with the death of Laral’s father and then of course, joining the military because of Tien.
But, you have to accept that even during the worst days at Heartstone, Kaladin was never abused. He did not even suffer any prejudice because of his eye color. The disagreement between Lirin and Roshone began with Lirin stealing those diamond marks and of course, Roshone’s resentment about the death of his son. Kaladin and Tien were collateral damage, sadly.
Even then, it was still good for Kaladin. Of course a pivotal point of Kaladin’s young life is going to the army at 16. And though Tien’s death was heartbreaking, it was also the reason why Kaladin became a good soldier. So, his four years in the army was actually productive until the moment he killed a shardbearer.
So, for the first 19 years of Kaladin’s life, he was actually doing very well. It was only the year he was 19 that he felt oppression, that is being a slave and a member of Bridge 4. So, that is one year of hell.
Yes, one year in hell can change a person, but overall, Kaladin is still acting like a privileged kid, and I mean kid. Whatever he experienced, he did not mature. Oh, he feel protective alright. But, he still acts as if he is better than anyone else.
Don’t get me wrong, I like Kaladin. But, he is too full of himself at times. That is his character though. I will forgive him on a lot of things, but please don’t say that Kaladin is a victim of prejudice. Kaladin is the one who is prejudiced and has a chip on his shoulder the size of Texas. Sad, but true.
Wait, Wit, the mysterious guy who’s a lot older than he appears and who travels to distant worlds through unknown means, also plays the electric guitar?
So, Wit is really . . . the Doctor?
Whoa, didn’t see that one coming. But, it explains a lot.
It is interesting to note that in the Ars Arcanum in Words of Radiance, a passage refers to Lightweaving and how it seems to require a spiritual component. We are led to from the passages in the epigraphs of the Words of Radiance that many of the lightweavers were artists artists, musicians, painters, sculptors. It seems like this act of creation, drawing in Shallan’s case is probably this spiritual component. Referring back to the Ars Arcanum, it also mentions “In many ways, this is the most similar ability to the original Yolish variant, which excites me.” So the Yolish version of lightweaving (Hoid’s lightweaving) also has this spiritual component. At first i thought it might be music. Both of his interactions with Kaladin were with music, a flute and an electric guitar, but then I don’t think there was any music when Hoid used his lightweaving and colored powders in Warbreaker. I have become convinced that Hoid’s spiritual aspect and artistic component is storytelling. He used lightweaving to subtly enhance his storytelling in Warbreaker as well as both his interactions with Kaladin. It also puts his seemingly odd comments about stories into a different context of Hoid knowing a lot more about what is really going on and merely talking over everybody’s head (ie. chick and bunny rabbit).
There also might be evidence that he is doing something similar to what Shallan did with the bandits, painting a better person. In the first story, he tried to help Kaladin take responsibility for his own actions rather than just playing the victim (he didn’t seem to learn it very well from the appearance of this chapter). In this chapter he is trying to help Kaladin learn that despite how it turns out in the end, its the journey that counts. Do you think this is what Brandon was referring to when he said we have seen something similar to Shallan’s transformation of the bandits before? I kind of doubt it because he implied that it might be hard for most to guess who it was and Hoid is one of the most natural guesses as a fellow lightweaver.
Ellynne @21 – BAHAHAHAHAHAaaaaaa!! Good one! :D
Hey, everyone, new here, although I’ve been following along for a while. I felt compelled to post because I’m with Halien here–I think Kaladin does have some justification for being so grumpy here. Adolin himself says later on Elhokar overreacted by chucking Kaladin in jail and losing the chance to duel Sadeas–he could have simply ignored Kaladin’s request and granted Adolin’s boon. Maybe the difference in opinion here boils down to whether you think Elhokar or Kaladin was at fault for losing the chance against Sadeas–I think it was Elhokar’s fault. Yeah, Kaladin didn’t help, but also it’s not Kaladin’s fault he lives in a terrible society with a terrible caste system that puts him at a disadvantage.
As I’ve read along, I’ve kind of noticed a lot of commenters here seem to dismiss the horrible trauma Kaladin underwent that caused his bitterness and stubbornness when it comes to lighteyes. Someone above suggested Tien and Kaladin becoming collateral damage in Roshone’s vendetta against Lirin was…good for Kaladin? I guess you could make the argument it made him the Knight Radiant-to-be he is today, but that just seems a callous, Taravangian-esque thing to say. As a result of this vendetta, he watched his family suffer, his younger brother die, his comrades die by Amaram’s hand, he was sold into slavery, abused and branded for not playing nice little slave, and forced into the bridge crews where he watched horrible injustices occur at the hands of lighteyes. Literally all of this was the result of lighteyes being dismissive, callous, and careless with darkeyes’ lives because they get to be. Of course Kaladin isn’t going to like lighteyes–they have been the source of nearly (if not all) the misery in his life–I don’t blame him one bit for being salty about them and distrustful of the Kholins initially. He’s still working through these issues, and then he’s chucked into prison by a whiny lighteyed king after risking his life to save a lighteyed life. Yeah, I’d be pissed too. Does this justify his choice to go against his oath and plot to murder the king? Well, no, but to act like he should be some saintly character who rises above his experiences really reeks of respectability politics in our own world, where privileged groups expect oppressed groups to stay meek and quiet when fighting their oppression. I really took some issue with Sanderson’s writing here, especially his conversation with Shallan later in the chasms, but we’ll get to that eventually.
Sanderson has built this society with some really terrible systemic injustice, and I definitely see parallels to our current (American) society, so maybe I’m a little emotional over this. But to expect Kaladin to forget all the horrors he’s experienced at the hands of lighteyes when he’s just put in prison by one after saving another’s life is unrealistic. He has every right to not like lighteyes and be skeptical about their motives after what he’s been through. I don’t doubt part of his arc includes overcoming that skepticism, just as I don’t doubt we’ll watch Alethkar’s crappy caste system go down as the world ends, but it’s perfectly natural for him to feel the way he does right now, to me anyway. I’m not trying to say you’re all cold, callous people who don’t care–I’m sure you do feel for Kaladin and his struggles, but I think you’re underestimating the immense affect they’ve had on his worldview. And funnily enough, I say this as someone who doesn’t even count Kaladin as a top 5 in my favorite characters list (Adolin and Dalinar top that list, followed by Lift, Rysn, and Navani).
@@@@@ rosiej
Agree completely with most of what you said. I know that he’s going to have to be better in the future, but i’m perfectly okay with him being mopey and grumpy for now. The only point that I would argue against is that conversation with Shallan – one of my favorite chapters. He’s definitely in the wrong there. He doesn’t get to assume that Shallan’s life is perfect just because he has suffered, no matter how annoyingly “happy” she can be. She’s obviously a little presumptuous herself, but it’s not with the blatant disregard that Kaladin was dishing out. It was ridiculously arrogant. Shallan is actually the counterpoint argument as to why Kaladin doesn’t have to act the way he does, which is why I can understand people don’t like Kaladin at times, even if I don’t agree. (I love heroes with tragic backstories so I always tend to be a bit more empathetic.)
@@@@@ Wetlandernw
I agree 100% with your comment at #8. Blaming Syl is indefensible. It’s the equivalent of getting your feelings hurt and lashing out at everyone, including your own friends. I don’t blame him for landing in jail as much as Elkohar, but blaming Syl made me want to strangle him. She is always on his side and has never done anything bad to him. Jumping into the arena was the right thing to do – everyone pretty much acknowledged that. ‘You saved a life, Kaladin, how is that a bad thing in any way? No one died; chill out.”
He’s not blaming Syl for the situation, he’s blaming her for saying “this time will be different” when it’s really not. Big difference. To draw an analogy: imagine you’re blind and you have to cross a street, your friend tells you to “cross now, it’s safe” and you get hit by a car. It is obviously your fault for crossing at a random place rather than at a proper place, the driver’s fault for not paying attention but also your friend’s fault for convincing you to do something that ends up badly for you.
Syl is Kaladin’s moral compass (in a way). She encourages him to do the right thing with the promise (both implicit and explicit) that things will turn out fine. When they do not, she is a little bit at fault.
Yes, he “ruined” the chance to duel Sades but not really. Elhokar ruined it. Alethkar society ruined it. He acted with honor in the duel, and if Elhokar would have acted with honor he would have gotten his reward. His only fault (if you want to call it that) is not realizing that the king didn’t have any honor. He is basically a spoiled brat in over his head. Which makes the later decision to get rid of him perfectly reasonable – if it weren’t for the promise to protect him.
Think of it like amputating a rotten limb to save the body. The fact that the king’s loved by Dalinar and that he tries to do better should not count, if he were a true leader he would resign. But all that argument is colored by 21st century North American and democratic thinking, there’s almost no way for an absolute monarch in an dictatorial autocracy (or military dictatorship if you want) to even reach that conclusion.
Elhokar’s hissy fit ruined the plans.
But you CANNOT demand a BOON. A boon is offered by your liege lord for something. If he does not offer you a boon, you cannot demand one. Speaking as a medievalist and a SCA player here.
So, sometimes you might expect a boon to be offered, but if your liege lord doesn’t offer it – sorry, it sucks.
Now in Kaladin’s defense, this is one of those social etiquettes of the upper class that he would not be expected to know. Even in the conversation he participated in between Shallan & Adolin they didn’t mention this. That was because Elhokar was part of plan, so the Boon aspect to Adolin was a given.
@24: Yes, Kaladin’s year of death and slavery was traumatic. No one who hasn’t suffered those types of trauma can really understand how much of an impact they had on him.
But the seeds of his depression were rooted in his personality long ago. We see it in his childhood. His reaction to the Weeping and other areas.
And his position of “big fish in a small pond” make him more aware of the differences between light & dark eyes. He’s been able to act as a light eyes more than most dark eyes. So when he is reminded of the division, it’s one more pebble of resentment.
Does a society with this type of cast system suck? yes, it does to most modern people. We also see it in action. Doesn’t make it right.
It’s disappointing how some people focus on some flaw in a person’s character and then use that flaw to judge the person. As if even worthy people didn’t have flaws. Kaladin is opinionated, outspoken, and has been prejudiced against the ruling class, but he is also a bright, talented, and caring person, and has been so since childhood. I doubt that anyone here would not harbor resentment and bias had they been as abused as Kaladin by Lighteyes. HIs moodiness, particularly during the Weeping season or behind bars , is not something that he can really control. It’s as if he were fated to be a creature of the wind, storm, and air who obtains psychic energy from the winds even in the absence of Stormlight. The argument that Kaladin only cares for those whom he has taken or been given responsibility is contradicted by his empathy for the widows and orphans of Dalinar’s army that had been betrayed and killed in that Tower engagement. More importantly, his decision to use his Bridge 4 squad in an attempt to rescue the remnants of Dalinar’s army in that engagement, at the grave peril of their own lives, shows his devotion to doing what is right and honorable. He had no responsibility for Dalinar’s men, yet led his men in a very dangerous and seemingly hopeless rescue attempt. His prejudice against Lighteyes is largely dissipated before the end of WOR when he finally acknowledges his mischaracterization of both Shallan and Adolin, and seeks their friendship. He even learns to see the good in his would-be executioner and actual jailer, Elhokar. I fail to see how he can not be admired despite his flaws. In fact, those flaws could be seen as an authorial effort to make his heroes more human. It is characteristic of Sanderson’s writing.
rosiej @24 – First off, welcome! Glad you stepped in!
Second, (@many!!) let me clarify something – for myself, at least. I’m not in the least discounting Kaladin’s past experiences; he had a privileged childhood that took an abrupt left turn when Roshone replaced Wistiow, and from there on had some horrible experiences combined with some reasonably good ones, followed by more horrible ones. (Seems like those experiences might have taught him to think before he acts/speaks; if he’d thought for a few seconds about how lighteyes-in-general would react to his assumption of a boon, he should have realized it might not be a good thing. But… whatever.) My point in the blog and in several comments, though, is that whatever faults others may have – and there’s plenty of fault to go around – Kaladin refuses (at this point) to acknowledge his own share of the fault.
He is in prison because he demanded something that the PTB didn’t think he had a right to demand.
Did he deserve a reward? Absolutely. Did he deserve the right to demand a boon of Elhokar? Absolutely not (see Braid_Tug @27). Did he, a darkeyes in Alethi society, have any actual chance of being treated the same way as the lighteyes whose life he’d saved? Duh – NOT EVEN. Right or wrong, he grew up in this society, and he should know by now that it won’t work that way.
Anyway, my point has never been that his treatment was equitable, nor that his reaction was incomprehensible. My point is that he is responsible for his own actions. In this particular chapter, he blames Dalinar, Elhokar, and Syl for his imprisonment, but refuses to admit that his own behavior had anything to do with it.
I guess the thing that grates so much is that Syl encouraged him to intervene in the duel, and in that effort her encouragement was completely justified. He made all the difference – one unarmored spearman changed the duel from a sure loss with both Kholin sons likely maimed or dead, to a total defeat of four Shardbearers and the Kholin acquisition of three full sets of Shards. Up to that point, the point where Syl encouraged him to go, her assurance was totally valid. And up to that point, there’s no way anyone would have thrown him in prison. Even Elhokar, envious as he was of Kaladin-the-hero, wouldn’t have punished him for saving the lives of his cousins. If he’d been jailed for simply intervening in the duel, he’d have a right to blame Syl for it, along with everyone else. But that’s not what happened.
Kaladin got jailed because of his actions when he went beyond what Syl had urged. Or rather, after doing what she urged as a Windrunner-protector, he went sideways (or downward!) into Skybreaker-I-demand-my-version-of-justice territory. That was his own choice, and it was that choice that landed him in trouble. Syl had nothing to do with the behavior that got him jailed.
And… I see now that others have said much the same thing. Oh well. ;)
@Alice
But that’s exactly the thing. He didn’t ask for justice like a Skybreaker. Skybreakers always obey the written laws under which he had no rights as a dark-eyes. A Skybreaker would have been quiet and maybe never even intervened in the duel itself (that’s a bit of a gray area cause the stated laws did allow multiple opponents but they also allowed help so maybe that was up to the individual?)
Kaladin asked for the boon as a son of honor. Giving it to him it was for sure not legal, there was no precedence, but it would have been the honorable thing to do. If anyone actually followed the law it was probably Elhokar :)
So Kaladin behaved with honor, expected honor from his supposed “allies” and he got burned. I find it hard not to agree with him when he blames Syl as a representative on honor.
No, no, no. Syl never never never encouraged Kaladin in his pursuit of vengeance against Amaram, or even in demanding to be honored for his actions. And it wasn’t that he “expected honor from his supposed allies” – he DEMANDED a reward, and a specific reward which was completely inconsistent with anything in their culture OR any information obtainable thus far.
Kaladin is saying a stupid, hurtful thing when he blames Syl: he’s lashing out.
He’s already spent 2 days in a tiny cell, away from the wind, with less light than he needs.
He’s already reverting to the wretch: he’s not far along yet, of course, and Hoid is able to bring him out of it temporarily, but at the point where he lashes out at Syl that is what it is: it’s him blindly lashing out. This was right after he said Dalinar was like the rest of the lighteyes (which Kaladin of course knows he doesn’t believe – but he still said it in the heat of the moment).
It’s not like Kaladin doesn’t realize he lost them the duel against Sadeas: he felt guilt about that way back before he was even sent to jail when Elkohar and Dalinar revealed that the challenge didn’t stick. Later on he freely admits this to Adolin. So then, the only time he says otherwise is when he’s clearly suffering from being imprisoned. And in that state, what else is there for him to do? He does some physical exercises to try to keep himself fit and active but that just reminds him he’s in narrow confines. He can’t do anything for his men or his job, the two things Kaladin basically centered himself around in his new life in the camp. He’s adrift, and hurting, and not in the right state of mind (which will just get worse).
Which is why, as readers (or rereaders in this case), we’re in an awkward spot: we need to spend time with Kaladin when he’s in this toxic state. Some people want to just shake Kaladin out of it and get him to move on. Others sympathize with his pain and want him to overcome it himself.
And all of us are going to just see him get worse since his conditions (I meant environmental but the mental ones also play a part) keep him in a state where he can’t come to a healthy conclusion.
Happier things:
-I know plenty of people regret we don’t see it from his perspective, but it is amusing how almost all of our time spent with Kaladin in jail is when he’s not alone (in a person sense)…not that Kaladin knows it of course, but he has a jail buddy.
-The story of Fleet is a pretty cool sequence. It’s a bit too on-the-nose about being about the journey to me, but I like it more than Wit’s story from the first book.
-Alice, you mentioned you’re leaving the epigraphs for the end of Part 4 but if we thought there was a link in the chapter we should discuss it here, and I think wheels kept going on in the back of my head. My first instinct is that it connects in the sense of changing names – in Hoid’s case he does it to obfuscate, maybe, or more likely just for fun, but there’s that old adage about names having power. This rings pretty true for Kaladin: his backstory in book one even included the moment when he went from wanting to be called Kal to Kaladin, and when he’s at his lowest Kaladin thinks of himself as a nameless not-a-person. And when Hoid finishes his story, he asks Kaladin what it means…and calls him by two names/titles: Kaladin of Bridge Four and Kaladin Stormblessed. The author of the letter tries to appeal to Hoid beneath his changing names, much how Hoid in this chapter tries to appeal to the true Kaladin as he’s beginning to sink into his desensitized former slave state of mind. The chapter is even titled Fleet after the story’s hero, a character so obviously meant to represent Kaladin that it could be another name for him. OK, that’s probably reading a bit too much into it, but it makes sense to me that it starts by discussing names when it’s a chapter about Kaladin starting to lose himself and Hoid helping bring him back for a bit (plus it will tie into next chapter when Shallan has a discovery about Lightweaving that will help Veil function).
@Wetlandernw, Braid_Tug, but also others
I admit that I too feel pretty strongly about this. I hope this does not come across as too sharp. Here goes:
Perhaps the caste system and the absolute monarchy, and so on make sense to most of the characters living in it. Perhaps that‘s how in real life societies worked for X thousand years. So, yes in such a society, you don‘t DEMAND are boon of the king.
But we are not Alethi. Alethi society is wrong by our standards, aren‘t they? It‘s wrong that Elhokar even is in a position to grant or withhold a boon on a whim. And Kaladin thinks it‘s wrong too.
So if there are two sides to pick in this, why ever should we side with Elhokar and/or the Alethi nobility? Because they are right by their own rules? Kaladin‘s ideals (that inform his actions) certainly align more with our own than do theirs, no?
@29 Alice – (and various others)
The fact that he is in prison is an overreaction to what happened. It’s just so far beyond a reasonable reaction, that most of the blame for it rests on Elhokar’s ineptitude as a leader. The king is channeling his inner Joffrey with this one.
Kaladin’s outburst should have been addressed by Dalinar or Elhokar, but what he did is is a breach of etiquette, not a crime. A quiet word in private about the necessity of putting the Kholin family’s plans first and explaining why Kaladin’s behavior was a transgression would have been suitable.
When you’re the one with the power, you also have the responsibility to treat these kinds of situations delicately or you risk alienating your followers. Elhokar doesn’t understand that. Kaladin is probably Elhokar’s best servant who isn’t also a blood relation. For his extraordinary service, I believe he deserved more understanding than he received.
I find much of the criticism of Kaladin to be unduly harsh, like some of the other commenters have said. Reader expectations for him are just too high right now. Much of it seems to boil down to “yeah, it’s unfair, but quit whining and get over it because there’s a world to save!” The combination of a reader’s superior knowledge about the Kholins and Odium makes us more callous than we should be toward Kaladin’s personal problems and impatient about his growth.
I get frustrated by the near misses too, but it’s unrealistic to expect Kaladin to be a big-picture guy right now. We can’t just expect him to make a cold, rational decision to set aside his personal problems and insecurities for the sake of Roshar.
@33 Lilaer –
I agree with a lot of what you’re saying. The existence of Odium as an outside threat changes the focus of the story and our expectations for Kaladin. If the scope of the story was Kaladin’s personal journey toward justice and equality in Alethkar, we’d all be cheering for him speaking truth to power.
But because we know Odium is there playing for all the marbles, we see Kaladin’s struggle against Alethi society as secondary and we unfairly expect him to adopt the same view.
@Halien
Heh, and I agree with much of what you‘re saying. The ‚saving the world‘ part really does overshadow the ‚fight against discrimination‘ part, doesn‘t it? I find that pretty regretful.
I hope, quite fervently, that part of the struggle for unity in the face of Odium will involve addressing the Alethi system of darkeyes and lighteyes. I hope that they will dismantle it. Also, I‘m rather confident that they will, I think it will be a huge part of Kaladin‘s character arc (and perhaps part of Dalinar’s).
I agree with Alice at @29.
As a parent, one of the thing I try to teach my children is not to ask for rewards. Rewards are not something you should ask for, it makes entitled and spoiled, but something you receive when your behavior warrants it according to the person giving it. However, the more entitled you act, the less likely you are to get that reward… It is called learning humility.
I thus heavily frown at Kaladin here because he demands what it is not his to ask. Not just because he is a darkeyes, but because you just don’t demand a reward. You obtain it, but you don’t make such a demand, especially not in public. It isn’t just their world, it works the same way in our world as well.
I thus disagree with Kaladin asking for a boon, publicly accusing a man of something he can’t prove and ruining a carefully laid out plan he knew of in advance. He chose by his own free-will to behave this way. He is smart enough to have known what he was doing. His chain of thoughts are essentially selfish at the time. He thinks Adolin is getting his reward, he should have his. He forgets it is not Adolin’s reward, but a piece into the puzzle the Kholins are trying to built. Adolin is merely a tool used to execute: it was not about him, but Kaladin suddenly decided it should be about him.
So it was Kaladin’s own actions who drove him there. He should acknowledge this. He should conceive he shares part of the blame and, more importantly, he should have accepted his punishment like a soldier, especially considering Dalinar told him it would be temporary. He should have understood some fights are not worth fighting. He won’t change the world in one day or by acting like the very thing he hates.
@37 Gepeto –
I understand where you’re coming from. Trying to come up with an objective definition of who deserves what is tricky and often leads to disappointment.
In this situation, I can’t see Kaladin as completely unjustified in what he’s asking. Sure, he was kind of demanding about it. But, he’s performed two vital services to House Kholin and if you’re a skilled leader, you find a way to cut him some slack here in gratitude. Without Kaladin, House Kholin’s power would be broken and many of its members dead. Elhokar’s reaction is so far out of the ballpark of the reasonable that this is like trying to send someone to jail for cursing in public.
Stannis, in A Song of Ice and Fire, is one of the few monarchs who gets that you have to reward good service with generosity. Yes, you can claim that service is owed you, but in reality, people want recognition and rewards for a job well done. It’s just part of human psychology. You can’t expect obedience without giving something in return for long.
Saying that what the leaders of House Kholin want is the only important thing doesn’t work for me. We as readers know it’s important to the big picture, but it’s not realistic to expect everyone else to give up their own feelings, ambitions, and humanity to realize Dalinar’s and Elhokar’s goals.
Thanks for the welcome, Alice! I’m excited to be here ^^
I honestly think it boils down to whether you think Kaladin or Elhokar is responsible for Kaldin ending up imprisoned and Sadeas wiggling out–it was Elhokar’s 100 percent. Yeah, it was a breach of etiquette that is stupid and unreasonable to begin with, but it could have been addressed in private by Dalinar. Kaladin isn’t perfect, and his bitterness/resentment of Amaram and lighteyes in general does lead him to making dumb decisions (such as deciding to assassinate Elhokar), but that doesn’t change that he has some legitimate justification for his dislike and distrust, and in this situation, I think he has every right to be pissed and grumpy as hell. I don’t think it’s Syl fault–as Alice pointed out, she didn’t tell him to request a boon, but Syl herself sometimes seems unable to understand the source of a lot of Kal’s anger and why he can’t let go of it right away. Idk, though, Syl annoys me in general. I think I’d make a terrible Windrunner.
Also, the fact that Adolin, the one who lost the chance to do what he’s been itching to do more than anything else, isn’t angry at Kaladin and instead locks himself up in solidarity, speaks volumes to me about whether it was Elhokar or Kaladin to blame for Kaladin’s prison time.
Good point Braid_Tug about Kal’s depression–that is certainly another problem that holds him back, and one that I think will plague him the entire series, far more than any prejudice toward lighteyes does, and I’m glad Brandon writes that so realistically. It’s important to see how poisonous depression really is how and hard it can be to overcome the negative thoughts.
I do think the fact that he was a more privileged darkeyes growing up makes the idiocy and unfairness of his country’s caste system even more apparent and unfair to him because he knows he’s just as competent as any lighteyes, and yet he’s still below them and treated like dirt by a lot of them.
Mooooving on, I love the story of Fleet, and that story is the reason I think Kaladin is going to be deader than dead by the end, which makes me terribly sad, but also very excited because I’m sure it’s going to be beautiful and epic and tragic and everything I love in a story. It’s such a beautiful allegory for life in general, though, even if parts of do read kind of awkwardly and clunky (but hey, I can’t hate on Sanderson for not being Rothfuss ;P)
The talk about Skybreakers versus Windrunners makes me wonder where Kaladin will fall on the Adolin-squelchily-taking-out-Sadeas thing. My initial reaction is that he and Syl would not be down for that, and it certainly isn’t something a Windrunner could do, but that doesn’t have to mean they would harshly disapprove of it. But then again, I think it needed to be done and it solidified Adolin as one of my absolute favorite characters because I predict ihs storyline, which i’ve already enjoyed reading, to be delightfully angsty from here on out. It really makes me wonder how different Orders dealt with how members of other orders handled stuff differently. Was it just, it’s how it is, we have to accept it, or was there a lot of argument? Like if Windrunners found out that Elsecallers pulled a Jasnah-in-the-alley, would they have to shake their heads but move on, or would there be an actual fight? Gah, I really can’t wait to find out more about them.
@37: Kaladin was rewarded for his services by being offered a set of Shards. Asking for more was… I am reluctant to go any further. I’ll just say I believe he was wrong here and while Elhokar was also wrong it does not absolve Kaladin of his own guilt.
@39 rosiej –
You bring up an interesting point about the philosophical differences between the orders. Seeing so much disapproval from Syl of other orders/types of spren was a bit of a surprise.The KR attracted a lot of different people to fight Odium with a number of different priorities and perspectives. That’s a great tool for uniting disparate countries and populations when there’s a war on, but it can be a weakness when that common foe is gone. Just how much did it get in the way of carrying out the Knights’ common mission?
The quotes from the in-world version of Words of Radiance suggest that there could have been a lot more inter-KR conflict than we used to think.
@40 Gepeto
Yeah, I don’t think we’re going to agree on this. As the older and more powerful person in the room, I’m going to say that more of the responsibility for controlling the situation is with Elhokar. Kaladin did something that put the king in a tough spot, but the reaction was so far beyond anything reasonable that it makes Kaladin’s mistake pale in comparison.
@41: It appears as if we are going to disagree. I consider people should be accountable for their actions. Kaladin did wrong. The fact someone did a greater wrong does not absolve him. Each is accountable for their own mistakes.
I also don’t believe imprisonment is a completely unwarranted punishment for insubordination and unfounded public accusations. It is unwarranted by its duration, not by its quality.
A couple things,
One, who in world knows of the Desolation and the return of Odium up to this point? The Heralds of course, Teravinan probably, and Dalinar in a vague sense. Everyone else, including Kaladin, is kinda in the dark about what’s coming down the pipeline. Kal loses focus on the big picture, but in his defense the big picture seems to be uniting Alethkar from his viewpoint, and why should he care about that? He does his duty, protects his charges, and demands what he feels is his due. The demand lands him in prison; I think it was wrong for him to be punished in that manner. However, as others have more eloquently stated, he bears some responsibility for his imprisonment and lashing out at Syl is truly regrettable.
I think part of Kaladin’s likeability has to do with his chemistry with Syl. They compliment each other perfectly, buddy cop or rom-com like interactions. Seeing them at odds, seeing Kaladin cause her pain with his words, trying to make his screw-up her fault is a gut punch to the soul. When she bowed her head I think I did too out of sympathy.
Last thing, Kaladin was about to close in on saying a Third Oath before Amaram showed up to poison everything. Windrunners have 5 to say before they top out their powers. I don’t believe the oath he said at the end of the book is the same as the one he would have said had Amaram never showed. Does anyone agree? And if so, care to speculate what that oath would have been?
@43 EvilMonkey –
I hadn’t thought of this because I’d always assumed the oaths had to be said in a certain order. IIRC, they’re named the First Ideal, Second Ideal and so on, at least that’s the way the Coppermind lists them.
What I do think might be different is what unlocks for each order with each oath. We’ve seen Kaladin’s progression, and it’s not always as clear what he gets with each oath as it was when Syl gained the ability to manifest as a Shard weapon.
What I like most about Sanderson’s Stormlight Archive is its fun yet poignantly direct engagements and incorporations of the social sciences (yes, yes, ratio data people, I realize interval data has its shortcomings).
Take Alethi society for instance. We need look no further than the “A Class Divided” documentary to get a handle on Elhokar’s reaction to Kaladin’s request as well as Kaladin’s (mostly) conditioned tendency towards psychological decline. FYSA some racial slurs may make this a NSFW/NSFK. If you’re inclined to view the video you can use Berger and Luckmann’s sociological model of how Kaladin’s social construction of reality came into being. First, the idea is externalized by someone or a certain group in a position of influence that is either earned or seized (e.g., the racial/genetic construct that brown eyed people are sociologically less capable than blue eyed people, likely a historical remnant of the Knights Radiant and the Desolations). This idea begins to seep into culture until it becomes an objectivation (common degrading notion about a people group that are embedded as an acceptable cultural norm and typically adhered to by the macro and micro cultures at play). The objectivation is then communicated by the culture back onto the new individuals born into it. Those individuals begin the process of internalization, wherein they accept the normed social reality and the ruling class is then cemented. There are ways to push against these internalizations that children receive (epigenetic/genetic inheritance, good education, solid family of origin, socioeconomic advantage, ecological/nationalistic shared values experiences like military service), but they are always present and when repeatedly encountered and affirmed they can really chew through the subjugated culture’s psychological, spiritual, and physical energies (overall resilience).
So Kaladin is born into Alethi society and grows up as a subclass/caste. As a plus he has wonderful core genetic inherited material with hopefully minimal epigenetic gestational issues such as a traumatized mother or father, a great education, a stable family of origin, some socioeconomic advantage, and he eventually “joins” the military after some not so great experiences on the home front with blue eyed corruption (which he later gets an explanation of from Dalinar if I remember right).
Then he pulls off the impossible (thanks to Sil’s early influence) and kills a blue eyed Shard/Platebearer on the field of battle, after which the survivors of his unit are brutally murdered in front of him and he is defamed/labeled a dangerous slave, all by the one light eyes who was supposed to be a good man, Amaram. I mean, talk about a worldview whammy right there. So then we have the added influence of Sil and her imparted ideals (Windrunner/Honor: Morals/Values trump societally built legal codes) that amp up Kaladin’s impulsivity and emotionality, but with the added caveat of true altruism (the defense of the defenseless). Kaladin (with some help from Shallan and Renarin) makes enough of a difference to swing the duel back to a good guys victory and then emotionally requests a chance at reparation (through a legal loophole so to speak) for the past murders of those entrusted to his care (an altruistic re-experience based in trauma for the now gone chance to enact a defense of the dark eyes who didn’t grow up with his advantages). And then Elhokar flips his lid. Which also makes sense in light of the above video and Alethi social construct of racial/ethnic reality.
Then along comes Wit the psychotherapist with his Thematic Appreciation Test projective technique. Using a musical narrative (and other magics) as the stimulus, Wit looks for “hero” projections from Kaladin. When doing projective narrative work the psychoanalyst identifies the “hero” of the story and looks for the client’s sub/preconscious personality experiences and projections (e.g., issues of adequacy, masculinity, emotional security, guilt, felt needs, driving forces, hostility, eroticism, ambition, authority figures etc…). It’s interesting that the result of Kaladin’s projections are his (the hero’s) eventual death.
Anyway, just thought you all might enjoy those tidbits. Sanderson does a great job of weaving in the social sciences, humanities, and science based magic systems, much in the same way Robert Jordan played with history, theoretical physics, and cultural gender constructs. Probably the reason Harriet picked him to finish A Wheel of Time. A lot of shared world building creative processes.
Edit: Grammar.
I disagree that being largely ignorant of the threat of Odium completely excuses Kaladin’s decision to chose that particular moment to “speak truth to power”. Because he _did_know that Sadeas was a serious threat, not just to Kholins, but, if he managed get on top, also to Kaladin’s own freed bridgemen/turned Kholin soldiers. Heck, Sadeas had an all-new compliment of bridgemen by that point, who continued to suffer and die. So, yea, since he cared about fates of other darkeyes, Kaladin _should_ have known that getting rid of Sadeas was a priority over his personal concerns, even if those included justice for his dead comrades.
Elokhar may have screwed the pouch on this one, but let’s not forget that his ability to force Sadeas into anything depended largely on his _moral_ authority over other light-eyes, and Kaladin’s declaration seriously undermined that and side-tracked the weight of public light-eye opinion, which was essential for the duel gambit to work, into an outrage over his demands. Personally, I wonder whether Elokhar truly could have pinned Sadeas down after that, even if he did react appropriately.
Not that I excuse the king in any way, but neither do I excuse Kaladin’s choice to be selfish, despite knowing the larger picture and how it could affect other darkeyes under his protection. Yes, he didn’t know about the _biggest_ picture, i.e. Odium (though he did have some hints), but he knew enough.
Halien,
WOB states that the 3rd Ideal gets the Shardblade regardless of Order (or in the case of Lightweavers, 1st Ideal and 2 Truths). I took it to mean that the order in which the oaths are stated didn’t matter as long as they all were spoken. The state Kaladin was in before Amaram’s arrival seems to reinforce that idea. Kal was actually somewhat happy, at least as happy as he gets. He had the stress of his responsibility to contend with but he was adapting well. He was building trust with his commander and learning the limits of his powers. Syl remarks that he was close to being ready and he agreed. Knowing that, I cannot see how he would have come up with the same oath he spoke at the end. I will protect those I hate, so long as it is right, how would he have come up with that particular oath when he had no one to hate that he still had the duty to protect? He thought Elkohar was hopeless but he didn’t hate him until Elkohar ordered him locked up.
Isilel
Good point regarding big picture Kal. He knew enough and was smart enough about both lighteye/darkeye relations and the threat of Sadeas to not screw the pooch on the dueling grounds. I don’t excuse Kaladin’s decision either. I will say that I doubt Kaladin thought of it in those terms though. He likely dismissed those planning sessions as “Lighteyed games”, similar to how he looked at dueling, and stupidly deemed them as a tangent to his duty. It reminds me of the Blackthorn and his attitudes during Galivar’s planning sessions 30 years ago.
I’d like to start this post with a few thoughts on the magic system in the Stormlight Archieve…
It’s more of a contract based system between two parties rather than something more conventional. It has some aspects in common with the “Soul Eater” manga/anime, and probably others. While skill will improve with experience in all magic systems and power usually increases with time and generally only goes up, with a contract system power is more a matter of synchronisation with another entity – it can increase or decrease at any time. We already have two clear examples of this going backwards among the main characters – Shallan in her childhood after killing her mother and Kaladin in this book. In Shallan’s case I think it’s likely that it happened very quickly while in Kaladin’s case it’s more of a slow decay. We also see in Dalinar’s vision of the Recreance that it can be pretty much instant and can happen to fully fledged Radiants. Done well (as it is here) it becomes a very interesting cost/limit of the magic.
On a side note, it is interesting to consider why Shallan still had her super Memory ability before she resurrected her bond with Pattern – Brandon has confirmed that this ability comes from her bond. So, is it proof that her bond to Pattern was still active if very weak before or did her previous bond cause a permanent change in her and she still have it if Pattern really died?
For Kaladin his weakening bond with Syl mirrors his thoughts and actions. From a plot perspective, one interesting aspect is that his weakening bond eventually makes him re-examine himself, though almost too late – only after he falls into the chasms and Syl almost kills herself to save him. It forces him to confront the consequences of his darker actions, finally.
This particular chapter is quite depressing as Kaladin becomes increasingly darker. He’s also clearly being irrational – by his arguments, he should never trust Lighteyes with anything but demanding a boon/reward for his actions implies a certain amount of trust. It takes many things for him to stop digging deeper into his hole. In the short term, Adolin’s actions probably help a huge amount, as we’ll see in a few more chapters into the re-read. Adolin is pretty much the “light at the end of the tunnel” for Kaladin when he leaves prison, though the effect doesn’t too long. Getting insight into Shallan’s background and realising that most/all of his assumptions about Lighteyes are invalid probably helps the most. Talking of his time with Shallan, when she asks Kaladin for an example where she treated Darkeyes badly he immediately raises his time in prison! Face-palm.
That being said, though Kaladin makes some frustrating errors, these kinds of errors are made all the time in the real world – I saw an example in front of me just a few days ago. It’s frustrating but also realistic.
Isilel @46 – Well said. I agree!
ETA: ChrisRijk @48 – “That being said, though Kaladin makes some frustrating errors, these kinds of errors are made all the time in the real world” – Ain’t that the truth!! This is one of the things I love about the writing – the characters are very, very human. That’s why it’s so much fun to get mad at them when they screw up, right? ;)
EvilMonkey @47
I am glad I held off responding to the earlier discussion until I read this post, because I was intending to make exactly the point you make here. It seems to me that the essence of any proto-KR’s journey to full knighthood is that the budding KR, in his/her journey through life, recognizes five important principles relevant to his/her order and articulates (dedicates his/her life to upholding) that principle. For Windrunners, the principles to be articulated are in the form of vows (I will protect ….?) and for the Lightweavers the principle appears to be the articulation of a “Truth”. The important point is, the recognition of each principle advances the budding KR one step up the ladder. It is impossible … wait, let me restate that … it makes absolutely no sense that every budding KR in a given Order must recognize and articulate those principles in a specific sequence … every life is completely different from another’s, and the lessons learned in these lives must necessarily be obtained differently.
So, I agree with you. Clearly, Syl thought Kaladin was ready to move one step up the ladder and was on the verge of realizing one of the principles he needed to articulate … until Elhokar’s envy and ingratitude threw him off course on realizing that particular principle and eventually led him to another. I have also been curious whose protection (?) Syl thought Kaladin was on the verge of realizing at that particular point in the story.
Isilel @46 and Wetlander @49, I have to disagree with you both. Very strongly.
At that point in the story, how could Kaladin have anticipated that Elhokar would go completely off the deep end with envy and call for his arrest and execution? Let’s not forget that at the point Kaladin spoke up, he had just saved House Kholin, of which King Elhokar is the nominal head, the death or crippling of two its most prominent members (the princes Adolin and Renarin), the loss of all its shards, and the potential downfall of the House itself and the ascendance of Sadeas to the crown, which is what they all suspected Sadeas was striving for.
In Kaladin’s shoes, I would expect Elhokar to be so grateful for my saving his House and his crown that I would expect him to, at the very least, give serious consideration to my request. After all, I know there is no better chance than now, when everybody but Sadeas and his cronies are marveling at what they had just seen, to request the king to grant another duel.
What I would not expect, is that the king, whose nephews, whose House, and whose crown I have just unbelievably risked my life to save would immediately order my arrest and execution and let the carefully prepared plan to trap Sadeas and reduce his threat to House Kholin evaporate, and for what, a mere breach of a social convention? In Kaladin’s shoes, I would also be thoroughly pissed and would be lashing out about every injustice done to me, and I defy you all not to do likewise under those circumstances.
In my view, Brandon has written a completely believable sequence of events that correspond closely with how most human beings would react under the circumstances, and I’m amazed that some of you can ignore the emotion of the moment and claim that Kaladin should have coldly analyzed the pros and cons of the situation at that point and waited to “go through channels” to get his grievances heard. Really, really?
I’ll say this again, even though the conversation has drifted into fun areas.
Dalinar should have given Kaladin an update into on the status of the investigation. This way he wasn’t in a lala land of no information.
This should have happened prior to the KR announcements.
Alison wonderland @51 – Actually, you’re not disagreeing with what I said, only with what you think I meant.
Let me make this as straightforward as I can. In this scene, I wish that Kaladin would acknowledge that his own actions contributed to his current situation.
If I think back to the very first time I read (all right, listened to) this scene, my reaction to hearing Kaladin’s demand, was “Oh shit, that’s not going to come off well.” Can anyone really say, their first thought was that Kal’s boon would be granted?
Elhokar’s reaction was exactly what I expected from him – and by that I mean his first reaction, execution.
Alisonwonderland @@@@@ 51 –
You are right seeing it that way because of Kaladin’s character. But I have to disagree with your conclusion that Kaladin has every right to ask for a boon, no matter how heroic his deeds for that day were.
And here are my reasons:
1. He volunteered. (BTW, this is great for Kaladin and show how generous he is) But, this also means he was giving everything he had. Perhaps it is out of duty. Or whatever Kaladin felt that time. But, when you do something like that, you don’t ask for a reward in the end because it actually defeats the purpose of your heroism.
2. From the discussion with Shallan and Adolin on their way to the menagerie, Kaladin already learned that dueling is a very structured sport. Putting the recently concluded duel scenario in today’s sports, Kaladin is similar to a pinch hitter hired during the World Series. (Of course this does not happen but please bear with me).
Just for the sake of argument, let us say that the Kansas City Royals did just that. And in Game 5, the deciding Game where they won the World Series, the said pinch hitter made the winning run. During the awards ceremony, when the Baseball Commissioner was honoring Salvador Perez with the MVP award, the said pinch hitter demanded that he be given the same!!!
And this is on network TV being televised to millions of viewers and this is the most important event in MLB. So, the Baseball Commissioner ejects the pinch hitter from the arena and threatens to suspend him from baseball forever.
Yes, to not be able to play baseball forever for that faux pas might be overkill; but ejecting the pinch hitter from the arena and suspending for said number games is reasonable, don’t you think?
I guess we do not see the “humiliation” of Elhokar and the whole dueling structure for what Kaladin did. But, putting it in the context of today’s sports, it makes sense, don’t you think? Somehow, I cannot imagine a “Kaladin” doing that in any awards ceremony, be it the MLB, NFL, NBA, NHA, the World Cup or the Olympics. If an athlete did that, his or her ass is grass.
Just my opinion.
@50: That’s an interesting point…if Kaladin was going to say an Oath before everything went down, what would it be. Assuming it’s protection (and 2/4 being about protecting someone is a pretty good hint at a common theme), what aren’t covered by the other two oaths?
– those who cannot protect themselves
-those Kaladin hates (as long as it is right)
(btw I know we all know this, but I like to organize it for when I’m actually looking and thinking on it)
My first instinct is that it might possibly be Kaladin/the Windrunner himself or his happiness, although I’m not sure even before Amaram showed up Kaladin was approaching that enough to explain Syl’s feelings: he was maybe making baby steps (and a stronger step with the flight), but Kaladin ultimately still has a lot of unhealthy habits/feelings he puts on himself.
Similar (and one I feel maybe stronger about) is an oath about protecting those dear to Kaladin – the problem is I’m not sure what the caveat to that might be. Maybe it’s even if they don’t want to be protected? But that feels like it’s a bit outward-directed when the oaths so far have been somewhat introspective. Maybe it’s protecting what they stand for instead of their actual health/body? That is also outward directed but more introspective (as Kaladin would need to think on what’s important to protect for people as opposed to just those people themselves).
None of those feel super close to where Kaladin was building up to before Amaram and then especially Elkohar diverted him, but they’re the best I could come up with quickly.
@55: Agree. I like the sports analogy. You don’t demand to be introduce to the Hall of Fames, you wait until you are deemed worthy enough by the jury.
As to what Kaladin’s oath would have been before everything went sideways, I cannot say. Kinda why I threw my $0.02 at the fandom. I just don’t think it’s the oath we get from him at the end.
As far as Kaladin’s role in his imprisonment, I agree with Allison @51 when she says his reaction both to asking for the boon and his disillusionment at the results is a believable one. He is genuinely hurt and hurt people tend to lash out. And considering his service to the Kholins he should have gotten a better deal than what he gets. That being said, knowing the realities of his situation and of society at large he should have had better situational awareness. Part of being a soldier is controlling your emotional responses during times of extreme stress. He should have been able to check himself. He tried to sieze an opportunity, it went badly, so it goes. I’m sure Kal himself would say he screwed up, at least after he had a good look at himself after the Chasm Run.
A couple of major misconceptions have crept in and are being accepted as canon, so… I can’t help it, I have to correct them.
So the next Ideal for Kaladin was always going to be something in the line of protecting people because it’s right, not because he thinks they deserve it. This is why I said a few weeks ago that I think “almost ready” was more likely to refer to Kaladin’s readiness to tell Dalinar about being a Radiant, rather than his readiness to say the next Ideal. IMO, there was nothing going on at the time that looked like Kaladin moving toward a greater understanding of that third Ideal. However, he was developing a certain openness to practicing Windrunning, and letting others know what he could do. I still believe that “almost ready” in Chapter 55 was referring to telling the world (or at least Dalinar) about being a Windrunner – and the announcement at the end of the chapter, declaring Amaram the head of the Knights Radiant, was a related devastating blow.
Another that came up in recent discussions:
All we know is that for Windrunners, you have to say the first three. We can’t draw conclusions about anyone else regarding how many Ideals they’ve said based on whether or not we’ve seen their Shardblade.
Wetlander @53:
I suppose that if someone had asked Kaladin a month or two later, after he had had a chance to think things through, he might even have agreed that perhaps he had acted too precipitously and his own actions had contributed to his predicament, much as he realized the same after the side-carry strategy went pear-shaped. My point is that, at the time he was flung into jail and had had to listen to that ungrateful cur Elhokar demanding his execution, I can fully understand his lashing out at everybody. Given his background and the injustices he had already had to endure, I am saying I would have lashed out too like he did in the heat of the moment, and I’m thinking most of us would have had similar emotions.
Think about it: he saved Amaram’s life, and what was his reward? His men slaughtered and he himself sold into barbaric slavery. He manages to overcome all that and saves Dalinar, Adolin and the House Kholin army, for which he is rewarded by Dalinar and given an unprecedented high-ranking position, even hearing the king praise him for his zeal and counsel. Naturally, he thinks the Kholins are not dishonorable swine like Amaram; they reward even darkeyes for services rendered. So, when the occassion next presents itself he puts his own life on the line to, once again, save House Kholin from ruin. Based on his past experience, he reasonably expects that the king, a Kholin, would grant him a boon even though he is a darkeyes. Instead, the king throws him in jail and pronounces a death sentence against him. Do you blame him for thinking that the Kholins are just like Amaram? We, as readers, know that is not the case and that Dalinar is an honorable man, but why would he think the same given the result he is experiencing?
Sheiglagh @55:
I didn’t say Kaladin was right to ask for a boon. I said, given the circumstances he might have expected that the king whose family he had just saved from ruin would be grateful enough to at least consider the request. If I were Kaladin, I would have expected the same, as I suspect would most people if it was actually happening to them and they were not reading it as a story.
EvilMonkey at 58:
I am a guy. I liked the play on the name and selected it as a handle when my first choice at the time, Major Breakthrough, was already taken.
Alisonwonderland @60 – I’ve never claimed that Kaladin’s reactions were difficult to believe or understand, humanly speaking. I do think a small bit of reflection on his part should show that he was over-reaching, but he had a relatively privileged childhood, so it still works. I just think that, by his third day in prison, he should be acknowledging that he bears some of the responsibility for his current situation, if only for not sticking with his distrust of lighteyes.
Wetlander, @59,
That is very interesting. I stand corrected. This is Brandon’s story, so I will let him tell it his way.
But I would reiterate: it seems nonsensical to me that every budding Windrunner’s life experiences have to follow exactly the same progression so that they come to the same realizations in the same order and are able to speak the oaths in the same sequence. Perhaps that works better for his story, but to me it stretches credulity past the breaking point.
… and @61,
No doubt. I don’t disagree with you there. All I’m saying is that at the time he is lashing out against Elhokar/Dalinar and snapping at even Syl, when his imprisonment is still fresh and Elhokar’s death sentence is still ringing in his ears, reflective introspection would be the last thing on his mind. And I think it is believable that he would react that way.
@59: It’s always struck me as well that, by the nature of introducing the Bondsmiths by the end, Sanderson always meant it to be questionable when various Orders would get their Blades – not that the Stormfather might not relent far down the line, but it makes you wonder. Of course, it’s not helped by Shallan being a red herring as we can’t really know how far along she is so her getting it at a different time or on the same truth/oath both seems viable (at least within the text anyways).
As for Kaladin’s third Ideal, looking at the text of that WoB (and I guess my bad for not knowing it super well, I don’t extensively data-comb them though and thus don’t mind speculating either way), if it has to be the same basic concept but the wording can change, then I can see Kaladin getting closer to it before Amaram sends him back. One of the things about the oaths we’ve seen is that they’ve all been dramatically presented in-universe: even the most laid-back one was probably Dalinar’s at the end, and he declared that into the sky to the Stormfather. It’s possible if Kaladin had arrived at it earlier it wouldn’t have needed to be so…vehement (but leave it to Kaladin for it to end up as extremes).
It being progress to openly declaring himself a KR also makes sense, of course, but I think there’s enough for both perspectives. And, in a lot of ways, they fit together naturally: it’s when Kaladin’s eyes more obviously remain light after using Stormlight (for a short period anyways) and he gets a Shardblade (which by itself gives a lot of power in Alethi society).
Wow, I was completely off base here. Sorry about that yall. And my bad on calling you a girl Alison. Shoulda looked at the profile.
I prefer to avoid further entanglement in the current debate on whether or not Kaladin was justified in his demand for a boon and subsequent acute resentment against Elhokar. I would only point to the end of the chapter where Hoid/Wit takes his leave saluting Kaladin and calling him Kaladin of Bridge-Four and Kaladin Stormblessed. He obviously expects greater things from Kaladin and does his best to encourage him. Instead, I would like to encourage some discussion on the anticipated ultimate confrontation between a champion for Honor/Cultivation vs. one for Odium whose conclusion will determine the fate of Roshar. There is a strong indication, I believe, that the Odium opponent will be Kaladin who is a Windrunner named ‘The son of Honor’ and Stormblessed.. He has the attention, encouragement, and respect of Hoid, and has also been the major hero thus far. There is an outside chance that it will be the currently deranged or confused Herald, Taln, with his Honorblade. But who will be Odium’s champion? Among possible candidates are Szeth with Nightblood, Nalan with Nightblood, or Moash with an Honorblade. It would be more disturbing if that champion turned out to be Zahel/Vasher with Nightblood, or Adolin with an Honorblade. Perhaps it will be someone not yet mentioned in the SA series. Any thoughts?
@65 Given Sanderson, I think we might not have seen Odium’s champion yet. Szeth or Moash seem too convenient, narratively speaking. Thinking about it, I’m not sure the whole champion business is going to pan out according to standard fantasy rules.
Would it be completely crazy to think Odium’s Champion could be Esshonai? Trapped by Voidspren in her head, breaking out at just the right moment, sacrificing herself to Honor’s champion to give Team Light the victory save Roshar?
I would personally prefer if Honor’s champion was not Kaladin. It is too predictable and convenient. I would prefer if it were Dalinar or someone else. We keep thinking the champions will fight, as in a duel, but what if the confrontation takes another form?
While I wouldn’t prefer the champion not being Kaladin, I’m in the camp where he seems too obvious to actually be the one – a bit like in Mistborn 3 and the idea of who would be the Hero of Ages.
Actually, if there’s anyone I would guess on fulfilling that role, it would probably be Shallan: out of the primary cast she seems like the least obvious candidate (although maybe I’m going too far in the opposite direction there, heh).
@65 – It does seem like the books are setting up a champion from each side, doesn’t it. We have Dalinar’s vision where Honor proposes it, we have the presentation of numerous potential candidates already (Kaladin, the “Child of Honor” who wants to protect/defend; Dalinar, the old warlord; Adolin, the dueling champion; Taln the forgotten Herald; Eshonai, the misled Listener; Szeth, the broken one; Nalan, the corrupted(?) Herald; etc). The lines appear to be drawn.
That’s why I wouldn’t be surprised if Brandon employs the big fake out, and the ultimate fate of Roshar isn’t decided by a Champion (or Champion Duel) at all.
It’s been awhile, but Brandon has already given us some hints as to the crux of the struggle and the potential climactic participants in the Stormlight Archives:
It’s possible that we’ve been given Odium and Honor’s champions as early as WoK, but it’s also possible that the redeemer and the destroyer may impact Roshar in other possible ways. After all, I question whether the reader would have been able to predict the outcome of Mistborn Trilogy after just reading the first book (and yes, I do know that Brandon foreshadowed the ending in the actual book). Maybe the redeemer and destroyer take up Honor’s Shard and Odium’s Shard (respectively), for all we know…
…
Having said all of that, if I had to pick champions I like Adolin as one. And I could make an argument for him repping either side, depending upon the fallout from Sadeas’s death.
@68: I 100% agree with you on this statement.
I think the “fight” will not be a traditional one.
The summary gives me such chills. What are the chances…Szeth becomes the champion? Maybe as a final act of redemption? Sacrificing himself to save the world he weakened right before the Desolation? Also, any speculation on who will save everyone and who will destroy everyone? I’m nervous Shallan might fall into the later category.
Since I doubt Brandon would give us a “traditional challenge” as we expect it and since he already used the trope of the intellectual non warrior man ending being the chosen one with Sazed, I think we are bound to see something else entirely…
How about a race? What if the champions don’t actually have to fight, but go through a series of trials to the risk of their life?
@72: Dalinar may doom them all despite his best intentions: he remains, essentially a tyrant. I somehow doubt its Shallan, Szeth is too obvious so Dalinar and Kaladin are the only ones left.
However, let’s not forget the “dooming/saving” event may not be the ending… It may simply be one path where things seem to look grim, where one of them nearly dooms them all, but it may not be the ending… It could Dalinar will nearly destroy all they have built with his rigidity, but will see through his faults and correct himself.
Prophecies hardly ever are what they appear.
A bit late to the party for this chapter but I’ll just stop by and say that Wit’s story chapters are some of my favorites in both books. I love the story within a story format for these. I also like how Wit forces Kaladin to think about them afterwards.
As for the prophecy on the back of WoK. I’m not sure sure how much to trust it, we know their are more “main characters” for the series than those who are mentioned on the back of the book. I feel like that particular prophecy was written just for WoK and to get people interested. It’s not repeated in story so I’m more inclined to set it aside as a publishers hook as opposed to something that actually will hint at who the champions are going to be.
Since I’m the one who encouraged these ‘idle’ speculations about the nature of the anticipated climactic confrontation of the champions of Honor/Cultivation and Odium and their identities, let me try another tack. Suppose the challenge, as per Gepeto, was not physical combat but matching wits. Suppose also that the contestants were Shallan for Honor/Cultivation and her erstwhile mentor, Jasnah, for Odium (I know that some will be aghast at the latter suggestion, but I needed an important intellect for the role). Jasnah has the intelligence, arrogance, and willingness to kill to play the role – despite her current desire to save Roshar. I am assuming that she will be both jealous of Shallan’s standing as the hero who rescued many by finding the way to Urithiru, and incensed at her collusion with those who sought to kill her. Such emotions can result in a downward spiral that leads to the master of hate, Odium. In any case, it’s just another instance of idle speculation, but it does suggest a potential source of conflict between Shallan and Jasnah when they next meet.
Another late comment (I don’t think my first one on another chapter ever loaded up, though): the discussion changed direction, but as I was read through the comments and listening to the chapter again, I was wondering about the conversation Kaladin and Syl had about “almost being ready” while they were in the menagerie. Fast forward to Kaladin jumping into the fight with Adolin and Syl telling Kaladin it will be different this time. Several people blamed Syl for misleading Kaladin, but I think-maybe– Syl sees this as a chance for Kaladin to “protect those I do not like (does it have to be “hate?” I don’t think Kaladin hates Adolin…), so long as it is right.” But Kaladin is so focused on his revenge, he misses it completely.
AiZhen @@@@@ 76 – Oh, nice one! At the time of the “almost ready” point, he really disliked Adolin. Back then, he was guarding Adolin despite his dislike because it was his job, and it’s only another small step to “because it’s right.” It seems plausible that that if he’d thought about it in so many words at the duel and said, “I’ll go protect the spoiled princeling anyway, because it’s the right thing to do,” he’d have leveled up right then.
It would be interesting to ask Brandon about it. It’s the only plausible way I can see for “almost ready” to refer to the next oath; otherwise, I have to stick with my theory about telling Dalinar. :D
A few (late) comments
On the “breaking” of the bond:
I disagree on the sentiment that we know that the bond is only broken in an instantaneous manner, and is thereafter not recoverable. Later, after Syl’s return, she specifically states “you almost killed me, you know.” This, coupled with the fact that Kaladin loses the abilities he had previously gained makes it clear that he did break the Nahel bond. Was it severed completely? The “almost” seems to indicate it was not, which again makes it clear that bonds can be “almost” broken, and recovered.
Also, there are WoB that specifically state that a “killed” spren can be Revived – and that although it’s somewhat easier (though not necessarily easy) if the person who originally broke their bond is still alive, it can still be done.
On the It’s partly Syl’s fault narrative: I can’t even comprehend how anyone could come to this conclusion. She told him that saving Adolin would be different from saving Amaram. AND SHE WAS RIGHT – Kaladin was given a full set of shards, he wasn’t sold into slavery and forced to watch his friends murdered.
It was different, and does she really bear responsibility for Kaladin opening his big mouth? She didn’t say “It will be different this time – you can even open your big fat stupid mouth and say something patently stupid and you’ll not have to face the consequences of your decisions.”
I’ll use someone else’s metaphor from the comments to illustrate: The blind man was told by his friend he could cross the street. And so, as the blind man crosses the street, he stops and starts doing the chicken-dance, and is therefore hit by a car. Is it REALLY the friend’s fault for telling him to cross the street, when he was hit by the car not because he crossed, but because he decided to do something completely & utterly idiotic on the way?!?! RIDICULOUS!
The fact of the matter here is that the punishment for a darkeyes slandering a highlord is execution. It’s explicitly stated as such in the text:
Does anyone really think that Kaladin doesn’t know this law? I find it completely inconceivable that he’d be unaware of it, particularly because it’s symbolic of the inherent unfairness in this society! Perhaps he would have thought that his boon would supersede that law, and he certainly could have been unaware of any laws pertaining to who could or could not receive such a boon, but to think he’s unaware that what he’s doing is – in most cases – against the law is incredible.
And so, as others have stated, he lashes out at Syl, and quite unfairly, whether he really meant it or was just being emotional. In response, she droops, and it’s terrible. Is this drooping caused by the straining – the partial breaking – of Kaladin’s oaths, of the bond? We don’t know, it’s not explicitly explained – it could be that, or it could be that she is emotionally crushed by his response. Either way, it’s certainly clear to see the beginnings of the broken bond here, just as Alice said.
At any rate, hopefully that didn’t come across as too aggressive/argumentative. It wasn’t meant to be – I disagree vehemently with some of the notions voiced in the comments, but this wasn’t intended as a personal attack on the people who voiced those comments. It’s meant to make clear the weaknesses in their arguments. Nothing else.
Also, this comment is not meant to imply that Kaladin alone bears 100% of the blame for what happened. It’s abundantly clear in the text that there’s plenty of blame to go around – I just don’t think Syl deserves ANY of that blame.