Welcome back to the Words of Radiance Reread on Tor.com! Last week, we left Kaladin hanging on the side of a chasm as the highstorm struck. This week, we still leave him hanging, as we return to the Davar estate, one year ago, for Shallan’s final flashback chapter.
This reread will contain spoilers for The Way of Kings, Words of Radiance, and any other Cosmere book that becomes relevant to the discussion. The index for this reread can be found here, and more Stormlight Archive goodies are indexed here.
Click on through to join the discussion!
Chapter 73: A Thousand Scurrying Creatures
Point of View: Li’l Shallan
Setting: the Davar Estate, Jah Keved
Symbology: Inverse Pattern, Nalan
IN WHICH siblings conspire uneasily; an elder brother cannot be found; increased wealth has not increased happiness; a fiancé arrives unexpectedly; a pouch is fetched; a son confronts his father; a brother and a stepmother are dead; the son draws his sword, and is contemptuously disarmed; poisoned wine is proffered; the son is beaten; the father collapses; a broken Soulcaster is discovered; the father is not dead; a song is sung; a daughter kills her father.
Quote of the Week
Now go to sleep, in chasms deep, with darkness all around you…
Though rock and dread may be your bed, so sleep my baby dear.
Now comes the storm, but you’ll be warm,
The wind will rock your basket…
The crystals fine will glow sublime…
And with a song… you’ll sleep… my baby dear.
It’s come back around. “The lie becomes the truth.” Some part of Shallan acknowledges beyond any shadow of doubt that her father did not kill his wife; that story was a lie. But now it’s become the truth; he’s killed his wife, and it’s too much.
Commentary
Word of warning: Lots and lots and lots of quotations today. This chapter demands it.
These poor, inept plotters. I can only assume that their inquiries about Helaran were a little too obvious; in any case, Lord Davar knew that they couldn’t find him. What I really wonder, now, is how he knew what had happened. “He found his own death on a battlefield in Alethkar.” On a guess, maybe the Ghostbloods sent word?
At any rate, once he knew they were trying to contact Helaran, his suspicions were raised, and their planning was in vain. It’s probably not surprising; Balat sounds like he’s as good at scheming as he is at everything else: which is to say, not at all. I found it terribly disturbing to read his solution to the atmosphere of the household:
“I’m tired of the fear,” Balat said to her. “I’m tired of being a coward. If Helaran has vanished, then I really am eldest. Time to show it. I won’t just run, spending my life wondering if Father’s minions are hunting us. This way… this way it will be over. Decided.”
He’s tired of the fear and of being a coward… so he’s going to run away? Sure, he’s going to run to the highprince and hope that someone there still cares about the old rumors of murder… but he’s still running away. He’s going to take his fiancé – whose ability to handle the escape I seriously question, and whose presence is completely unrequired for the ostensible mission – from her parents’ comfortable home, and drag her along with him. But he’s going to leave his little sister and his younger brothers in the house with their terrifying father, to face his wrath when Balat’s disappearance becomes known.
Oh, Balat. I pity you, but you’re a weakling and a fool.
Well, it’s too late now. They’ve been discovered, the entire plan tortured out of Malise, and Eylita sent for under some pretext or other. He must have made it sound like he was approving of the marriage? Otherwise, I can’t think why she would actually come. Then again, she’s not all that bright either, so maybe she wasn’t too hard to convince.
And there they all are: Wikim and Jushu hiding outside the door, Balat and Eylita attempting to face it out, Malise dead on the floor, and Lord Davar in a cold, contemptuous fury. He and Shallan are the only ones moderately functional… but she has a pouch of well-aged blackbane.
Last week in the comments, FenrirMoridin observed that “Shallan is colder and more calculating when she is under stress and having to focus on doing something even though what she wants is to curl up into a ball and ride things out.” Ironically, when I saw that comment, I had just finished reading this:
Shallan felt cold as she stepped into the hallway. That coldness… was that panic? Overwhelming panic, so sharp and strong it washed away everything else.
This had been coming. She’d known this had been coming. They tried to hide, they tried to flee. Of course that wouldn’t work.
It hadn’t worked with Mother either.
(This is the point at which they’d just learned that Lord Davar had sent for Eylita.) I’d like to know a little more about that last statement, though I suppose I never will. Was the hiding and fleeing just that one afternoon when they tried to kill Shallan? Or was it built up over time, attempting to hide her Lightweaving from Mother over a period of weeks or months?
Shallan forced herself to her feet. Coldness. Yes, she recognized that coldness inside of her now. She’d felt it before, on the day when she’d lost her mother.
Lord Davar has just collapsed from the drugged wine, and she turns away, believing him dead – by her hand, just like her mother, though she won’t acknowledge the similarity. She thinks of it only in terms of “the day when she’d lost her mother.” (Would she, had she been free to do so, have stashed this in the Closed section of her mind, and only thought of it as “the day when she’d lost her father”?) In the coldness of her panic, she thinks extremely clearly and acts decisively.
Shallan rubbed her thumb across the metal. She couldn’t think. Numbness… shock. That was it. Shock.
I killed Father.
This is just before they realize that he’s coming around; while she considers herself “in shock” she’s really still being all analytical and effective. The earlier observation is accurate: when Shallan panics, she goes cold, and then she does everything skillfully, efficiently, and emotionlessly. Or… not everything:
“Now go to sleep,” she whispered, “in chasms deep, with darkness all around you…”
A lullaby. Shallan spoke the song through her tears—the song he’d sung for her as a child, when she was frightened.
Not quite everything.
Stormwatch
One year ago, on the night of the last highstorm before the Weeping (which is not necessarily the same date), Shallan’s life turns inside out once more.
Ars Mechanica
This is the first time we’ve visited the Davar family since the Ghostbloods decided he was worth their active support. For the first time in years, they are not only solvent, but actually wealthy:
“Does it feel odd to anyone else,” Jushu said, “to be this rich? How many deposits of valuable stone are there on our lands?”
We already knew about the Soulcasting of rich stone deposits, but they clearly didn’t. They thought it was just dumb luck that so many were being found. We don’t actually know when Luesh told them the truth of what was going on, or how much truth they had to tell him about their father’s death. There are still a lot of aspects to Shallan’s past that we don’t know. But now we finally know for sure a) how & when the kids got hold of the Soulcaster and b) how it got damaged:
Shallan glanced over to see Jushu pulling something silvery from Father’s coat pocket. It was shrouded in a small black bag, mildly wet with blood, only pieces of it showing from where Balat’s sword had struck.
“Oh, Stormfather,” Jushu said, pulling it out. The device consisted of several chains of silvery metal connecting three large gemstones, one of which was cracked, its glow lost. “Is this what I think it is?”
“A Soulcaster,” Shallan said.
…
Shallan stood, wiping bloodied hands on her dress, and took the Soulcaster from Jushu. The delicate metal was broken where the sword had struck it.
So, despite all the theorizing, and despite all the times this was used as “proof” that Shallan had killed her father with her Shardblade, it turns out that the fabrial is simply susceptible to ordinary damage from ordinary tools.
Side note: I suspect, personally, that the reason all the wealth isn’t making their father happier is that every favor from the Ghostbloods comes with a price attached, and while he’s free to spend the new wealth on dresses for Shallan and parading for the highprince, it’s still all in service to someone else’s goals. (And there’s Odium, of course.)
Heraldic Symbolism
Well, this is pretty obvious. The Judge, Nalan, is here to serve justice on Lin Davar, abuser and murderer. And poor little sixteen-year-old Shallan has to be the one to carry out the sentence.
I mentioned all the expectation during the TWoK discussions, that Shallan had killed her father with her Shardblade, and that it was probably self-defense. The truth was… a distinct shock. I could wish for her sake that the expectations had been correct; a sudden death from a Shardblade wielded in self-defense would be bad enough, but this? This is the kind of thing that makes her “It helps if you’re crazy” crack seem all too bitterly true. How could she be anything other than crazy, after this?
Did it really have to be done? Yes, he’d killed Malise, and had he not been poisoned he probably would have killed Eylita and possibly Balat. But once he was down and helpless, was it really necessary to strangle him to death? I can certainly see an argument for it. I can also see an argument against it. Try to be polite to each other when you debate this question.
Just Sayin’
First, a bit of levity, because we need it now, Balat’s opinion notwithstanding.
Shallan eyed the bundles Balat had been preparing. “Good thing Father never checks in on you, Balat. Those bundles look so fishy, we could make a stew out of them.”
The second is not so much funny, as a brilliant bit of word-painting:
Rain pelted the roof. It sounded like a thousand scurrying creatures looking for a way into the building.
Umm… that’s not creepy or anything, right?
Final notes: Words of Radiance was released exactly two years ago today. Woot! And on a much more sober personal note, my own father passed away five days before the release; this was a very difficult chapter to deal with this week. (Not to worry – there were no parallels. He was 97 years old; I just sat with him for most of his last few days, and sang to him a lot.)
Okay, enough. Play nice in the comments, and then be sure to come back next week so we can finally resolve Kaladin’s cliffhanging. Good thing he has such great upper body strength.
Alice Arneson is a long-time Tor.com commenter and Sanderson beta-reader, and she completely failed to ask any questions at the Calamity signing event. Fortunately, other people asked plenty! Check out Braid_Tug’s report at #30 and sheiglagh’s at #35 and 36 on Chapter 72 of the reread; for more signing reports, check out 17thshard.
With soul casters around – why does having stone deposits = wealth?
We have not seen a ton of granite kitchen countertops on Roshar, so I was suddenly struck with this thought.
Why does stone = wealth?
Sorry, I’m shying away from the deeper questions until I’ve had more sleep.
Sick baby = slow mind.
@1 Soul Casters are not common. They seem to usually be used by religious officials employed by the powerful. So turning dirt into ore or stone deposits probably isn’t common enough to disrupt the economy too much.
Shallan in her “coldness of clarity” mode is certainly quite chillingly effective. Personally, I think that there’s another example a few chapters ago when she suddenly takes over the lead when she and Kaladin are being chased by the chasmfiend and leads it back to the corpses.
It would also be interesting to know if this is something she gets from Pattern, like her super Memory, or if this is simply her instinct to survive kicking in to an extreme degree. It could also be a mixture of both – eg something that she had naturally that got amplified by her bond. If her bond to Pattern does affect it then it may well become stronger, perhaps dangerously so.
Anyway, it’s certainly going to be something worth keeping a look out for. Personally, I think it’s highly plausible that her bond is affecting more than just her memory though with a sample size of just 1 we can’t really estimate too much – even if/when Lightweavers become common again or were common in the past, Shallan might still be an outlier in this regard. I think there are some hints that tie into it being affected by her bond: when she draws it feels more like she goes into a trance (not literally) which also seems to stimulate her memory. More significantly, the time when she draws random things she shows something like clairvoyance (somewhat confirmed by WoB), with Shalash breaking a statue and the sailors surviving. I dunno where Shallan is going long term but if she could access her clairvoyance and “coldness of clarity” at any time then she would make one hell of a battlefield tactician, for example. Lots of possibilities.
Regarding the death of Lin Davar, were there any other realistic options that allowed the family to survive? Personally, I think not but also that it doesn’t really feel like Shallan considered alternatives anyway. It’s more like she was putting down a once beloved family pet that had gone feral – sad, unfortunate, but necessary and also something she was mentally prepared for. If they had tried a more legal route I think it would likely have ended badly – if Lin had simply been tied up it’s likely that others in the mansion who are more loyal to him (or the Ghostbloods) would have intervened, which would have doomed them. If that hadn’t happened and he was formally arrested and charged with murder then there would have been other problems – such as dealing with the huge debts the family had, something they wouldn’t be able to hide from if it all becomes public. Lin might also reveal Shallan’s secrets.
So, the more legal options might well have resulted in more death and misery. A lovely choice and clearly Brandon does not intend to spoon feed us with a overly neat and simplistic perfect answer to these problems – rather, they seem to be more of a running thread throughout the series.
Perhaps the biggest tragedy is that if Shallan hadn’t unintentionally sealed her own powers she probably could have saved her father – if she could save the deserters’ souls then I’m sure she could have saved her father’s.
I am of a mind that Lin Davar deserved to die, it just sucks that it had to be done by his 16 year old daughter. There is a possibility that he could have been redeemed, but at what cost? He was intent on murdering his own family. He needed to go.
Alice, it is absolutely beautiful that you sang to your father at the end. I am sure it eased his passing.
List me among those who consider Shallan’s strangulation of her helpless father to be dishonorable, even if there is a justification or basis. Her poisoning her father who appeared to be intent on seriously maiming or killing her brother could be justified on the basis of stopping any further bloodshed. His wife had already been beaten to death and now he was attacking his son in his frenzy. How else could Shallan stop his frenzied violence? Once he was poisoned and still paralyzed, killing him to prevent possible future violence or repercussions doesn’t appear to be honorable – certainly not by a daughter who had been shielded from further psychic harm for years by the father. I highly doubt that Syl would approve, but Cryptics are, apparently, not so particular about honor. In any case, it makes for dramatic reading. Rarely is an otherwise sympathetic principal character in fiction given such a role to play. The fact that Kaladin appears to take Shallan’s revelation of killing her father in stride may reflect his own involvement with the plot to assassinate the king, or not having been told the details of the killing.
Honorable? No. Practical? Yes. I prefer my protagonists to be practical. Valar morghulis.
How does Shallan’s actions here compare to her study of ethics in WoK? Has anyone read the two sections back to back? Does she demonstrate any sign of her fugue or dissociative states?
It’s been mentioned before, but the lullaby that Lin sung to young Shallan and that she now sings while strangling him can be seen as prefiguring her experience in the chasm.
Let’s set out the connection:
“Now, go to sleep, in chasms deep, with darkness all around you. Though rock and dread, may be your bed…”
That’s fairly obvious.
“Now comes the storm, but you’ll be warm…”
That could refer to Kaladin’s nearness.
“The crystals fine, will grow sublime”.
That could refer to the enormous gemheart they retrieve from the Chasmfiend.
“And with a song..you’ll sleep…”
Shallan asks Kaladin for his story to take her mind off their peril, and she falls asleep during the storm.
it is a powerful chapter and the end is hard. Unlike STBLST I don’t really care about the “honorable” part (which it is not). It’s not even “right” from an ethical point of view. Justifiable – likely not but I think it is understandable.
Shallan already thought she’d killed him, to do it again is devastating to the/her soul but she already accepted that she’d killed her father, so I understand why she would “finish the job”.
That Brandon managed to gives us a so shocking – und unguessed – scenario, though we’d already known she’d killed her father and theorized about it for years is remarkable. The end of the flash-back sequence couldn’t be more powerful.
But as a whole I’m still a bit dissapointed by the flashbacks. A lot of them felt repetitive, while still huge parts of Shallans past remain unrevealed (how did she become a “Radiant” in the first place, why did her mother attack her etc.). Maybe I’m just grumpy because it’s likely we won’t learn those things.
I find the lullaby interesting. I think it is somehow connected to the Parshendi. It seems to describe the chasms. It has a sound that a Parshendi may sing to a baby Parshendi. In particular, I am fascinated by the line “The crystals fine will glow sublime.” To me, the crystals fine represent gemhearts. The most interesting word is sublime. Per Merrriam-Webster sublime means “to cause to pass directly from the solid to the vapor state and condense back to solid form.” It is my theory that somehow in a prior Forms (those Forms that the Parshendi had previously lost) were able to cause a gemheart to pass from a solid state to vapor and then back to solid. Perhaps, that is what we saw done with Eshonai when she changed into Stormform. She had a gemheart and during the Highstorm, it somehow trapped a spren into a gemheart. In order to trap a spren, the gemheart had to “vaporize”. When it solidified, it now contains a spren. To carry it a bit further, perhaps (as somebody last week theorized) the gemheart that Eshonai sublimed was her “heart” gemheart. That is why the former part of herself is still within the deep portions of her mind.
I am sure that greater minds can take this theory and refine it. Alternatively, they can poke holes in my theory.
Thanks for reading my musings.
AndrewHB
aka the musespren
This might be sad, and probably not good, but reading Ender’s Game as a very young child really shaped my understanding of the ethics of violence. Lin Davar, in my mind is much like the wasp, he will keep on stinging his children. Better to kill the wasp.
@10 Ha! Yes! Shallan reminds me of Ender here.
@STBLST,
I would disagree here. I’ve always seen it as a mercy killing. She did what had to be done. It’s not like they were on a even playing field here. Poison was the only way they were ever going to overcome him physically. The strangulation was just the finishing what she started in as “nice” of way as possible. As for her choice to kill him at all…I don’t blame her. Having to decide to kill your father to save the rest of your family, after you “drove” him to become a monster is pretty much a – and apologies if this offends anyone – “Sophie’s Choice.”
Jason @@.-@ – Thanks. I know it eased his passing for me, and I think for him as well.
Re: the lullaby – another interpretation of one phrase, at least, is that “the crystals fine will glow sublime” is due to the fact that the gems are reInvested during the storm. In the specific application to the surrounding chapters, there’s a place upcoming where the sphere Shallan had drained and dropped suddenly bursts alight.
Someone should ask Brandon sometime if the “chasms” in the lullaby are merely reflective of the way all of Roshar seeks shelter during the highstorms, or if they were specifically to do with the chasms of the Shattered Plains. Or… just a good word to fit the meter. :)
And praise the Heralds for that. I couldn’t handle two protagonists with that particular handicap.
@8: I was not disappointed by the flashbacks but I was not as enthralled with them as Kaladin. I don’t know why I felt this way: I tend to prefer Shallan as a character than Kaladin, though the same would not have been said back in WoK. This particular scene was rather creepy but perhaps it lacks the “wow” factor… When I read Kaladin’s, I knew his brother died, but I didn’t know he killed a Shardbearer and was made a slave for it nor did I know the remaining of his squad was slaughtered by Amaram. With Shallan, there was nothing unexpected: I knew she killed her father, I did not know how and when, but this is equivalent to not knowing when and how Tien died. Apart from that, there weren’t any additional great mystery revealed or any outstanding fact unraveled.
This being said, I did enjoy the flashbacks, they just weren’t as taking as Kaladin’s… I am still bothered as to why.
As for not knowing how he initially bonded Pattern, based on answers he has given in the past, I’d say it is because Brandon didn’t think it was a great enough mystery to uncover. He thought the most important thing in Shallan’s past was the fact she had a Shardblade and she killed her mother with it. Why and how did not seem to bear the same importance. I thus suspect the truth is entirely ordinary: no outstanding secrets left to unravel. Little Shallan likely grew up in a broken family and, as a result, she withdrew within the world of dreams and imagination. She crafted them with such power she attracted the world’s only Cryptic. Her mother found out about it and, for reasons probably tied to her “activities” she decided to have her killed.
While we aren’t reading this sequence, he did say we would find out, eventually. Probably through the main narrative, but I wouldn’t expect it to be overly relevant. It is a habit I have noticed from the author, he doesn’t write fluff, only pieces which have a role to play in his narrative.
Oh, thanks Alice for mentioning my comment in the reread, that was super coincidental timing that I said that when you were right in that part! Funny how that happens.
I guess first, since everyone has been talking about it, how I feel about Shallan killing her father: beyond the fact it’s dishonorable, it’s just painful to me whenever I read it because as bad as their lives were I still don’t think it was their best option – but it’s so real that it would feel that way. There’s just so many parallels to various types of domestic abuse, and Sanderson just nails that feeling that they were basically trapped and something awful happening was…inevitable.
And while I understand why some people like more effective, ends-before-means protagonists, whenever Shallan is in that emotional shock/cold state it just worries me – she’s almost like a whole different character, one practically unrecognizable from regular Shallan. Although here at least Shallan is crying – somehow the scene with Tyn earlier in the book seemed more harsh even though Shallan wasn’t nearly as close (obviously).
Also, speaking of scurrying creatures: unrelated but iirc Sanderson is a big From Software fan. Well (completely unrelated to him of course ) but in Bloodborne they actually have creatures called scurrying beasts, and they look like this:
(Although in-game they’re awesome as they drop an upgrade material).
@@@@@ Alice “without emotionlessly” Huh?
I did not like Kaladin’s flashbacks or Shallans. I expect I won’t like Dalinars either. I want the main story to go forward. That said, I do think Shallan’s flashbacks were weaker than Kaladins. As said above, there was not much happening and I was left with a lot of questions. I wanted to know how she became a surgebinder and specifically why her mother tried to kill her. I would also have liked to know if she came from a happy home or if that was another lie she told herself.
Jenesis @17 – Revision artifact. Thanks – I fixed it.
I’d like to say that, in my opinion, Shallan’s strangling her father like that was perfectly morally acceptable. He’d already proven that as soon as the poison wore off, he was going to kill Nan Balat, so Shallan was acting in the direct and immediate defense of a life. If she’d let him recover, then she (as far as she knew) wouldn’t have a chance against him. It was kill him then and there, while he was defenseless, or let him kill her innocent brother.
@@@@@ Alice – Thanks for the mention on the little blurb on the author’s area. That’s your area and you generously shared it with Braid Tug and I. Thanks. :-) xoxo
Shallan had no choice. Lin had proven himself capable of murder; and brutal murder at that. Everyone involved had every reason to think that Balat was to be Lin’s next victim. Shallan couldn’t subdue him without the blackbane, and she couldn’t remove the stranglehold he kept on his house without killing him (via, oddly enough, literal strangulation). Could someone else have “finished the job?” Perhaps, but I would bet you all the spheres I (imagine I) own that they wouldn’t strangle Lin. They’d go for the fallen poker, and revenge. And that would have torn them apart as badly as the incident that started this mess.
Blackbane – Shallan thought she was killing her father with just the drink. That was how her brother explained his planned suicide. It seems like some commenters think that she gave him the drink so she could then kill him. Sorry if I’m misreading things.
The strangulation came as an “Oh shit, he’s not dead.” Then once it was clear none of her bothers would step up to act, she had to. Because if he recovered, he would kill them all. Not going to speculate where it would fall in our legal system, it’s too broken and the killing has many gray areas.
No, Syl & Honor would not agree. But Shallan has Pattern, so it is not a concern.
@16: that is one creepy picture
@15:
This, I’ll disagree with you. He knows people would want to know how an 11 year old would bond a spren. Consider how much time this blog alone has spent on wondering about Shallan’s early days with her mother. There is a story here to tell. I’m hoping we get it now that Shallan can think about her past without blacking out.
True. For this arc in the story, starting with “Red Carpet, Once White”, then ending the flashbacks with a death and the lullaby is an amazing story arc. Much like how the “Walk through the Chasm” acts as a short story with in a story. Shallan’s flashbacks acts as there own short story.
Going back further for Shallan would break the short story flow.
Giving us more PoV during the post-bridge collapse aftermath, would break the short story flow.
There is more to tell, but finding the “right place” is the key.
Much like Bradon has said he has the story of Nightblood & Vasher’s separation – but finding the right place to tell the story is key.
@Alice: First, hugs about the anniversary of your father’s passing. Not an easy thing to face.
Second, I’ll echo sheiglagh. Thank you for sharing your space.
Oh Alice. Thank you for sharing about your dad. I was blessed to be able to sing to my mother during the days before she passed. She was only 47. I remember she couldn’t talk very well, but at one point she chimed in and sang a little with me and her eyes lit up. I sang at her funeral, and that was the last time I ever sang in public. My heart goes out to Shallan, and to you too.
@22: My understanding of Brandon’s plotting when it comes to the flashbacks are he writes what he believes is the greatest mystery. How Shallan initially bonded Pattern may be of interest to readers, but it probably isn’t overly relevant to the main story arc. If it were massively important, he would have crafted his short story in a different way. How? I do not know, I am not an author. I am merely expressing the fact he chose not to write this specific sequence into her backstory and he had a reason.
The story he needed to tell was how Shallan killed her mother and her father. It leads me to believe the rest of it is not relevant which is likely why we are probably going to get it through bribes and bits as opposed as through a complete coherent chapter.
Besides. knowing his readers want to read a specific arc does not mean he is going to write it. If it doesn’t fit within his planned narrative, then it isn’t going to get in there. There are several arcs readers want to read, but won’t make the cut.
I agree there is a story to tell, but I disagree the author will necessarily write it simply based on the facts some readers want it.
I disagree adding more POV would have broken the chasm scene sequence: they could have gone before or after. There were ways to make it work: it was a narrative choice which is understandable and justifiable through thousand of arguments, but just as Shallan’s backstory, it does not change the fact some readers wished they got to read it.
I guess my point is simply because readers want to read it does not mean the author is going to write it. Shallan’s complete backstory though is likely to fit in, somewhere. I am also convinced some aspects of Dalinar’s backstory will be left unsaid just because there is too much to tell… choices will be make. Are the bits he’ll leave out be the ones some readers wished they had read? Maybe. I do not know.
Oh, Shallan. She can be quite terrifying when she sets her mind to something. I admire her partly because of her ability to remain strong and act decisively even in very difficult situations, but this chapter shows some of the flip sides of that strength for her – the coldness, the harsh pragmatism, the way her brothers rely on her and burden her. (It struck me when Shallan approaches the room where her father is, with Wikim and Jushu standing outside, and Sanderson writes set off on a separate line: “They made way for her.” Shallan, the youngest, is the one forced to deal with her family’s problems; her brothers just make way for her.) Shallan’s able to survive and make a difference partly because of those things, but it’s painful and sad to watch. I particularly worry about those surpising flashes of coldness and pragmatism because they could easily become twisted towards evil. Especially if Shallan has associates like the Ghostbloods, who appear to be playing with dangerous magic and have proved themselves to be quite ruthless on occasion…
This chapter also made me wonder further about Lin’s relationship with Helaran. The way he says “Only Helaran…Only Helaran…”, the comment about him being noble, just the way Helaran keeps coming up is interesting to me. I’m quite sure there’s something significant between them that we don’t know about yet.
Which, speaking of that…I think it’s possible that Helaran and whatever he was up to is part of why Sanderson doesn’t show more of Shallan’s backstory. Haven’t we seen some characters theorizing at some point that Helaran had been involved in Shallan’s initially becoming a Radiant? At any rate, both Helaran and Shallan’s mother were involved in fishy secret society stuff – things that Sanderson may want to leave for later. And I think perhaps trying to fit in new magical or world information would have distracted from the strong character-work and tension of the flashbacks. Sanderson wants us primarily focused on Shallan, not on cool new things we’re learning about Surgebinding. He might need more space to effectively deal with both without awkward tone shifts.
On a different note, my sister and I are both very unimpressed with the toxicity of blackbane. This is supposed to be “one of Roshar’s most deadly natural poisons,” and a fair amount of it well-aged can only paralyze a man for a few minutes? Roshar appears to be severely lacking in poison.
@7 STBLST: I wonder, why did Sanderson have this lullaby fit so closely with the experience in the chasms? Just to connect young Shallan to present-day Shallan, or this flashback to the story she tells Kaladin? Or is there something more in the parallel? I generally don’t expect Brandon Sanderson to try to communicate too much by parallels, metaphors, and other hidden literaryish stuff; he’s usually pretty straightforward. But the song seems oddly relevant to the time in the chasms.
One interesting thing about the lullaby: it seems that Brandon Sanderson didn’t actually write it himself; his father-in-law Matt Bushman wrote it at Sanderson’s request.
(from http://theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=988#33)
Makes me wonder how much Sanderson actually determined what the song was about, and how much he just worked with what Matt Bushman wrote.
FenrirMoridin, sheiglagh, Braid_Tug – You’re welcome. Just acknowledging my debts… I know I don’t always manage to credit people for input that triggered a train of thought, but I do try.
Braid_Tug @22 – Good points on the short story arc, and I agree. While there are obviously things the readers want to know before and after Shallan’s flashback sequence, they would disrupt the narrative arc, and are best revealed organically at another time. Likewise with the chasm scene – while we might have wanted to know more about what was going on for the “survivors” back at the warcamps, the time for telling it was not right, and would have fit poorly with the structure of the short story – or novelette – that makes up Part Four.
Also, thanks for the hugs. The support from the WoT rereaders at the time was a huge blessing and encouragement to me.
mistingblue @23 – Oh, I grieve with you! How painful that would be, to lose your mother so young – but such a gift, to be able to share music even in the darkest hours. As I said, my dad had lived a long, full life, and he really was ready to go. Music was so much a part of our lives as a family, and I’m profoundly grateful for the days I had to sit and sing with him, and to sing with siblings and friends when they stopped in as well.
Gepeto @24 – “…simply because readers want to read it does not mean the author is going to write it.” Ain’t that the truth!
sheesania @25 – IIRC, Taravangian (or one of his associates?) speculates that Shallan had training from her brother… which always struck me as odd, because he carried a dead Blade, not a live one. Unless… um… Oops. Just got an idea, which I must research.
Meanwhile. This is just speculation, but I always assumed that Helaran was rather the pride and joy of both his parents; he just couldn’t handle the “fact” that his father killed his mother. I’m not quite sure why he would believe that story so much more readily than the one his father told, though, about the “lover” murdering mother and then him killing the “lover.” So… maybe Lin was always proud of him, but they were too much alike to actually be close? If that’s the case, it’s reasonable to think that Helaran would have sided with Mother against Father whenever there was a disagreement, and made him more willing to blame his father in the end. Also, if he was very close to his mother, he might know something more about her “friends” and that the friend was definitely NOT a lover.
But I agree; there’s more behind Helaran than we know yet, and what we don’t know about the secret societies is enormous.
Hi everyone,
I have been waiting for this chapter a while on the re-read as I wanted to ask if anyone has thought about how Odium influences the world?
As far as I can tell, there has been no “direct” influence (a la Harmony reshaping solar system configurations) since the Recreance, only influence via humans and parshendi. We know he is the source of the Thrill, and we think (or is there actually a WoB on this?) that Lin Davar was influenced/controlled by Odium.
Now compare this to Ruin, a shard that was “trapped” by Preservation and wanted to influence people. Ruin could only do it via the various spikes (trying to be vaguely spoiler-free here, perhaps not needed).
We know that Odium is also trapped (the epigraphs that form the second letter tell us that he “cannot leave the system he inhabits”), but it’s far from obvious that he’s trapped in or near Roshar, and perhaps he too needs a mechanism to influence people. What could this be? He seems to have spren, and is this the answer? If so, how was Lin Davar influenced? Had he bonded with a Odium spren? The same can’t really be said for soldiers on a battlefield though.
Ant.
CI thought the Storm Form spren were Odium spren. Am I mistaken in this? I think the Everstorm is having a significant impact on Roshar regardless of Odium’s proximity. I would have to look it up but I believe he is on a nearby planet.
As far as we know, Odium is trapped on Braize, another planet in the same system as Roshar. There seem to be some spren of Odium on Roshar, and there’s at least speculation (confirmed??) that the Unmade are tied to Odium in some way. We also have a WoB that Lin Davar is influenced by Odium… but through what mechanism, we don’t know.
If anyone can cite actual references for the link between Odium and the Unmade, or any information on the mechanism used by Odium to influence people on Roshar, I’d be grateful… Otherwise, I’ll get lost in the Coppermind and/or 17th Shard, and it could be days before I see daylight again.
In book, Pattern clearly states that there’s spren of Odium around (chapter 24) but that’s not directly referencing the Unmade.
Apart from that there’s a WoB that states that the Unmade are Splinters of Odium:
https://www.reddit.com/r/books/comments/2ytg2h/-/cpcr9f0?context=3
Personally, I think that all the “influences” on Lin Davar by Odium are indirect. Ie Odium created the Unmade with particular abilities which might include wide area “odiumness” of various kinds. Indirect and not targeted – just that Lin is more susceptible because he’s already somewhat broken.
Let’s see what I’ve got in my notes…
First, just confirming what Alice said:
(from http://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=1041#4)
(from http://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=1108#10)
(from https://www.reddit.com/r/books/comments/2ytg2h/im_novelist_brandon_sanderson_ama/cpcr9f0)
Now some more interesting things:
(emphasis added; from https://docs.google.com/document/d/1_sTZkZ0Irdf3haauT5PnX94yYQSyQGlCqUAcOBafTMs)
(from http://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=1094#56)
(from http://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=1097#1)
(from https://docs.google.com/document/d/1r4u4t0SH_O-uEkaMwE9Iqjbrzem2e9xXRjFLvGWd7HI)
It’s lovely to see you folks being able to share with and encourage each other, even if we’re just a bunch of wordy Internet strangers who happen to like the same books. :)
@24 Gepeto: “because readers want to read it does not mean the author is going to write it.” Gosh, even if the author wants to write it, they may not wind up including it. They may really enjoy a particular character or situation or magical tidbit, but if they see that it won’t contribute to the story, then they may very well choose to cut it. Indeed, a good author will choose to cut it. But whether an author cuts something they want or something the readers want, they’d (hopefully) do so out of concern for the readers, wanting to write a good story that will satisfy them (and, of course, then earn the author money and a good reputation). In the end, the readers’ wishes are a factor, the author’s wishes are a factor, but the readers and the author are both best served by the author just trying to write a good and well-constructed story regardless of anybody’s particular preferences. That’s what I think, anyways. The classic Brandon Sanderson example that occurs to me is the Mad Prince from Elantris. I know this is something I perennially struggle with in my own writing: how much do I need to serve the story? How much does the story need to serve me and my preferences? How much do I need to serve the readers, and how much should they be willing to put up with for the sake of the story? Ideally the story is so compelling that the author’s and readers’ wishes align with where it’s going, but things are rarely that perfect.
Anyways. Rant over. The main point was to bring out something that seemed implicit to me in what you said: Sometimes the readers don’t get what they want because of what the story needs, but sometimes the author also doesn’t get what they want because of what the story needs.
@26 Wetlandernw: Ah yes, thank you, that’s who it was. “They had been startled when [Jasnah’s ward] arrived on the Shattered Plains. Already they hypothesized that the girl had been trained. If not by Jasnah, then by the girl’s brother, before his death.” (ch I-14) Helaran’s Blade did have a gemstone set into it, and Lin says “But no. It’s different” about it after evidently thinking of Shallan’s Blade. So I don’t think Helaran was a Surgebinder, but he was involved with the Skybreakers, and Taravangian and co evidently think he had enough magical knowledge to train Shallan. Thus, even though I doubt he’s a Surgebinder, I think it’s likely that he had knowledge or was involved in things that Sanderson would rather save for later. At any rate, trying to write the mystery of Helaran and the mystery of the Davar parents’ deaths at once in a small space would’ve been tricky.
While I’m at it, I wanted to say that I saw a picture of a Mistborn in Seattle who I’m guessing was your daughter in one of Brandon Sanderson’s recent blog posts, and the costume looked awesome. :)
Re: Odium’s influence – The WoB about Odium influencing Lin is pretty vague. Maybe there’s some direct magical thing going on with Odium-spren or whatnot, but the WoB about Odium only influencing people through the Unmade makes that seem unlikely. So perhaps it’s just that he was involved with the Ghostbloods and they are somehow Odium-influenced.
I’m a little sad about the WoB on Shards being able to edit text. I came across a theory that Odium was changing the Diagram like Ruin did other texts and thought it was delightfully terrifying, but this WoB makes that pretty unlikely. Better for our protagonists, but not as good for the evil part of me that finds the thought of Odium leading Taravangian by the nose amusing.
FenrirMoridin @16:
IMHO, we need to take into account how much our, let alone Vorin ideas of “honor” are meant to favor the physically strong, the privileged and the warlike. Like, if Balat had been a better fighter and managed to kill/subdue Lin mano-y-mano, that would have been “honorable”, I guess? In fact, a great warrior might have even been able to make Lin back down without hurting him, because he could have successfully intimidated him . But what options would a girl like Shallan have to protect her family from a monster? She can’t duel a trained man with any hope of winning. So, since she is physically weak, and her only chances of overcoming him would lie in surprise and subtrefuge, that would mean that she’d be “dishonorable” by default if she chose to fight back using the only options she had for success?
This view of honor makes me curious, BTW, how a woman could ever be picked for Windrunners, as the Order is so focussed on physical protection within the strictures of this straightforward idea of a honorable fight as going toe-to-toe with an enemy. I mean, the slight enhancements that the early stages of bonding give could never overcome all the disadvantages of biology and culture that a woman would have to struggle against in pursuit of the Order’s Ideals…
Now, of course, in case of Shallan we have the magical element – if she could have remembered about her Radiant abilities, even just enough to summon a shardblade, she might have done it. But at the time, she was incapable of overcoming her mental block, so had to deal with the situation as a mundane young woman. What “honorable” options that would have still allowed her to save Balat and Eylita and prevent Lin from continuing his murder spree, leave alone make him face justice for the murder of his wife did she have, pray?
Let’s not forget that Lord Davar purposefully arranged it so that they couldn’t even attempt to run away, by trapping them within the manor and confronting them during a strom – when it is death to go outside on Roshar.
Oh, and also let’s remember those new guards he had been hiring to replace those who had been with the family previously, which were thugs, who answered to him alone and frightened Shallan. That’s why she had to strangle her father when the poison didn’t do the trick – because he didn’t have to be in physical shape to finish what he started, all he had to do was get back his voice and give an order. Which is why trying to keep him imprisoned wasn’t possible either.
Hm… it now occurs to me that it wasn’t mentioned what happened to these guards after Lin’s death, IIRC, – did Balat dismiss them? Did they start to obey him after Lin was out of the picture? A curious omission.
Re: Shallan becoming cold and detached in the moments of crisis – not sure what’s wrong with this. She is a survivor. And I particularly don’t see what’s wrong with her reactions during confrontation with Tyn – nobody would have batted an eye if it had been one of the male characters cooly and efficiently killing somebody who attempted to murder them.
And finally, I loved Shallan’s flashbacks. They transformed her from the tropy “feisty princess”, who was supposed to be witty, while sounding profoundly unfunny, as she seemed to be in WoK, into a very interesting, complex and unique character, IMHO, turning all the stuff that didn’t quite fit and appeared to be the result of bad writing into something that retrospectively made eminent sense plausibility-wise.
While I liked Kaladin’s flashbacks, they just explained how his character evolved, they didn’t really challenge my understanding of who he was. While Shallan’s completely transformed (heh) my view of her, which was much more satisfying and unusual. So, I guess that I am in the minority of those who prefer Shallan’s flashbacks to Kaladin’s – maybe not for their content, but for how their changed the character for the better in my eyes.
Gepeto @24:
I think that Shallan’s bonding of Pattern and her mother’s allegiances might yet be explored in the future – in some non-flashback way, but there are some secrets there that Sanderson doesn’t want to reveal yet.
Sheesania @25:
I too am very curious about Helaran, but if he had been close to his mother, wouldn’t he have known/suspected what really went down that night? It always seemed very odd to me how Davar boys seemed to be unaware of the tension between their mother and Shallan, even though in this chapter it is revealed that the girl had been trying to “run and hide” from her mother for months before the fateful confrontation, and earlier in the book loud quarrels on the subject of Shallan between Lin and his wife have been mentioned as well. So, how come that at least the older 2 boys Helaran and Balat were so completely ignorant?
Not to mention that if Taravangian’s speculations about Helaran somehow facilitating Shallan’s bond pan out, it would mean that he and his mother had been working at complete cross-purposes.
@33. Technically speaking, Odium is changing the Diagram – because the best source of future intel that Taravangian uses to augment the Diagram is an Unmade. He just can’t do it as easily and directly as Ruin could.
@31: wow! Lots of great information there. Thank you for collecting and posting it all.
Side bit, but I’m most surprised about the other planet in the system being able to support life. Well, I’m assuming some types of life forms. That means the “Goldilocks zone” is large in this system.
@34: in Dalinar’s vision we saw men and women Windrunners. Shardplate and blade would be a great equalizer for strength. The desire to protect and be honorable is universal. No gender limits. Stopping there.
Writing Excuses posted an episode called “Killing your darlings.” @30, sheesania already covered one example. Indeed, Brandon has written lots that he loves, but since it didn’t serve the story, it was cut.
@34 Isilel: Good thoughts on Shallan’s flashbacks. I also really enjoyed them, at least as much as Kaladin’s. I liked her from in TWoK, but was also impressed with how much her character changed and deepened in WoR. To me, Shallan’s flashbacks felt a lot more focused than Kaladin’s: there’s a distinct goal, arc, progression. With Kaladin’s, the story kind of meanders its way to the ending you know is coming. I certainly don’t mind meandering, and indeed I think the slow worrying over decisions in Kaladin’s flashbacks makes the final decision (to go with Tien into the army) that much more sharp and shocking. But the stronger focus of Shallan’s flashbacks did (for me) give them more tension and…I don’t know, drive.
However, I come from a background of reading realistic/literary fiction that’s all about slow, carefully drawn character development with little action. I have almost too much tolerance for protracted and repetitious character building. So I’m not surprised if others have different opinions!
About Shallan’s cold detachment – I agree that this is part of why she’s been able to survive so much, and I don’t think there’s anything innately wrong with being able to set aside emotion in a crisis and consider the situation pragmatically and efficiently. But I’m still a bit alarmed for two reasons. For one, this is very different from how Shallan usually acts, and how we expect her to act. I wouldn’t bat an eye if Kaladin killed someone coolly and efficiently, but he’s a trained soldier who’s used to such things. If Shallan, on the other hand, suddenly switches from innocent quick-tongued girl to cold-blooded killer – whoa, hang on, something is off. There are two very different sides to her that don’t fit together (even though they make sense given her background). There’s an uncomfortable dissonance there that doesn’t seem healthy to me, especially because Shallan doesn’t accept her darker side most of the time and thus doesn’t have much control over it.
The other reason I’m concerned is how she acts while she’s in this cold state here in this flashback. One can make a good case that she was justified in killing her father, but we never see her making that case to herself. She just decides to do it and then goes through with it – no consideration, not much feeling, only doing what she believes needs to be done. I think that could be very dangerous in the wrong context.
The key problem, I believe, is that Shallan needs to accept and meld together both parts of herself: both the happy, earnest girl and the all-too-experienced, pragmatic woman. She needs to be both, and then when she is happy and earnest she won’t be naive, and when she’s cold and pragmatic she won’t be ruthless or slip into evil. This sort of issue of identity or reconciling two worlds is something I often see Sanderson’s female leads dealing with, actually.
Re: Shallan’s family: It is a bit odd that Shallan’s brothers appear to completely buy the story about Lin killing Lady Davar…though do we ever have evidence that they specifically believed the bit about the lover? That part, at least, should’ve been suspicious if there had been tension/arguments between Lin, Lady Davar, and Shallan leading up to the deaths.
And now I’m wondering about the guards, too. I should go poke around in the books and see if I can find any explanations about that.
@35 Landis963: Good point. However, Taravangian knows that the Death Rattles are coming from Odium, so he can at least consider them accordingly. If Odium was changing the Diagram like Ruin did with other texts, Taravangian might not catch it for a while and could be severely misled.
@36 Braid_Tug: Thanks! Glad it could be helpful. On the other planets, there are actually three planets that can support life in the Roshar system.
I guess I’m assuming that Braize can support life, though. Anyways, Ashyn is where Sanderson’s perpetually-unpublished book The Silence Divine happens.
A bit late to the party, as always, but I may as well. . .
About the potency of blackbane–I kind of thought that Lin Davar’s resistance to it was a side effect of Odium’s influence. I don’t know how I got this impression, because there’s nothing in the text that obviously supports it, but it doesn’t seem unlikely.
As for female Windrunners and honor, I think the whole gender division, and indeed the entire Vorin religion didn’t take off until after the Recreance. So it’s possible that at one time, the genders were less sharply divided and women who fought were, if not commonplace, not unheard of.
And to Wetlandernw: consolations for your father. I just passed the one-year anniversary of my dad’s death last month–his funeral would have been two years, two days ago. I wasn’t with him. He died slowly, and I had to work, 400 miles away, to keep the bills payed for my sister and myself. I like to think he would have understood, if he’d been capable of understanding. I’m glad you got to sing to yours.
sheesania @33 – Yep, the “Young Mistborn” in Seattle is my daughter. She LOVED her costume, and we had a lot of fun putting it together, trying to make it actually match the descriptions in the books. I kept trying to get a good picture of the tassels flying, but it never really worked very well – probably because my phone doesn’t take very good low-light pictures. But it was fun, and is now Brandon-approved. :D
Isilel @34 – Excellent points about how a 16-year-old girl could “honorably” win against a man stronger, older, and far more skilled than herself. That’s a… very different light in which to consider the question of honor!
@several, fwiw, I have no problem with Shallan’s “cold & detached panic” reaction; while she might do things she would not normally consider, it’s a far more effective and useful reaction than collapsing in a heap or running around screaming. It’s kept her alive more than once – and other people, too.
I’d never really thought about comparing my reaction to Kaladin’s vs. Shallan’s flashbacks. I can certainly say that, even though I liked Shallan in the first book, my understanding of her was changed far more dramatically through her flashbacks than my understanding of Kaladin through his. Some of that is undoubtedly because we knew nothing about anyone in the first book, so Kaladin’s flashbacks informed our initial view of his character to some extent. With Shallan, we had a whole book of getting to know her, solely from her own POVs; the revelations of her flashback sequence were a shocking counterpoint to the fluffy, snarky, annoying-teenager persona we thought we knew. From here on out, the flashbacks will be shedding new lights on familiar characters; the results should be… interesting.
sheesania @37 – I think, personally, that Shallan has been considering the possible need to kill her father for quite some time, though she tried everything else first. She kept the blackbane for a reason, and she knew exactly where to find it. She was working to get Malise and Balat away from their home, because they were in the most danger; she was hoping to not need to do anything more drastic. But I think she was prepared.
Naïve_misanthrope @38 – Thanks, and my condolences on your loss as well. It’s hard not to be there, but parents generally do understand. My oldest sister was in Brazil, and one of my brothers was several hundred miles away, doing his job to provide for his family. We all hoped Dad could hang on until they both got back, but he’d said his goodbyes when they’d had to go, and I think he was okay with that. I’m sure your dad would be proud of you for taking care of your responsibilities, and would understand and approve.
Brain_Tug @36:
My concern re: female Windrunners is for the initial stages of the bonding, before shardplate and blade, before significant enhancement from Stormlight. Judging by Kaladin, they’d have to protect people through straighforward, non-devious, physical means in order to grow the bond for years before surge-binder perks really kick in, and I don’t see how it could possibly work, at least in Vorin societies. And even without the cultural restrictions, something like that would be far more difficult for women than for men.
Sheesania @37:
I couldn’t agree more re: Shallan’s need to integrate her memories, etc. However, I’d also point out that her bubbly exterior makes it easy to forget that while not “trained” for it (and how do you really train for it?), Shallan had seen a lot of death, violence and dangerous life-or-death situations before she ever came across Tyn. Her parents, her step-mother, seeing Balat savaged in front of her, Jasnah’s little ethics lesson, Kabsal’s attempt at Jasnah that nearly got her killed, Jasnah’s “murder” (which looked very real), deaths of the ship’s crew to whom she had become attached, deaths in the battle with the bandits on the way to the plains, etc.
It shouldn’t be a surprise that Shallan has learned to respond cooly and efficiently to mortal danger. Well, it was to Tyn, but… ;). It is not a sign of some psychological disorder. Shallan has good survival instincts, and she had ample opportunities to excerise them and to become inured to danger and death. Maybe not quite as much as Kaladin at her age, but likely more than a lot of soldiers during calmer periods. Possibly more so than Adolin at her age, even.
@40: Adolin is probably the less inured to danger and death of all the main characters… All he ever fought was the Lego War on the Shattered Plains… not quite the real thing.
Isilel @@@@@ 40 – I actually see women are natural to be Windrunners. With women’s maternal instinct, they will protect through “non-devious physical means.”
Shallan who is not a Windrunner does the “protecting” in her own way which is not associated with her being a Lightweaver. She protected her family to the point of killing her father with two attempts. She saved the soldiers who had deserted and she took the slaves so that they won’t be under that slaver’s thumbs. We might disagree with her methods and the how, but she protects people.
Of course, not everyone can be a Windrunner. There is more to that. And that is another long discussion. And of course, this might result to another long discussion about Shallan and her slaves. And I hope we don’t go there again. As Wetlandnw said, it’s a rabbit hole she did not want to go in again.
Moving on, I do believe that women can be Windrunners even within the very restrictive Vorin religion.
Sheiglagh @42:
Of course Shallan has saved and protected people, but Syl would have considered her means of doing so to be dishonorable. Which is why she is a Lightweaver and not a Windrunner, and why the spren of 2 Orders dislike each other. And I really don’t see how she could have accomplished anything as a budding Windrunner, who couldn’t yet fall back on her surge-binder powers. Kaladin defended his fellow soldiers through force of arms, which allowed him to rise to position of leadership and protect them better. His skills as a surgeon also helped. Shallan couldn’t have protected her family or anybody else in the same way.
It looks to me like more a matter of temperament rather than her actions themselves that make her unsuitable for Windrunning. Whatever the readers definition of honor is, in-book honor is determined by the oaths. Truth is, Shallan never violated a Windrunner oath. She displayed Strength before Weakness, she protected those unable to protect themselves. Surely no one argues that Lin Davar didn’t deserve death. In fact, I see Skybreakers having much more of a problem with Shallan’s actions than any Windrunner. So the only bar to her becoming a Windrunner is that her and Syl aren’t compatible. Syl seems like she would hold her bondee to the strictest sense of honor (not necessarily by her own choice) and Shallan seems to be the type to cut corners for the sake of practicality. She wouldn’t attract Syl’s attention.
Isilel @43 – I did not mean Shallan is a candidate to be a Windrunner. From what I understand in your statement, YOU DON’T BELIEVE WOMEN CAN BE WINDRUNNERS. That is what I disagreed with. I used Shallan as an example simply because she is a woman.
But, just for the sake of discussion, what are things stopping a woman from the Vorin society to be a Windrunner? Can Kaladin’s mother be a Windrunner? She is intelligent, a very fair person and a good mother to both her children. That she will protect children to the best of her ability is implied in her character development.
Or what about Laral? She is not a bad person? What will stop her from being a Windrunner?
Generalizations about the role of the sexes even in the very restrictive Vorin society does not hold water. Like everything else, there are always those who rise above the rest.
Short of sounding like a feminist, or that I’m starting a feminist movement in Roshar, I think generalizing that Rosharian women are incapable of being Windrunners is an insult to their intelligence and their capacity to contribute to society.
That said, other books in the cosmere have shown examples of very capable women living within the parameters and restrictions of the world they live in. Assuming that Vorin women are incapable does not do Roshar any justice compared to the others.
Elantra, Warbreaker and Bands of Mourning have very capable women. In fact, in Bands of Mourning, Steris which is a secondary character showed true grit even though she stayed within the almost Regency/Victorian setting of the story.
What I’m trying to say is that Brandon is an equal opportunity writer. He writes strong heroes and heroines. They may not be perfect, but they have strength of character.
Just my thoughts. Sorry if I sound as if I am pouncing on you. I just cannot agree that Rosharian women are weak after seeing how strong Jasnah, Navani and Shallan are. They might not be good candidates as Windrunners, but it does not mean that other women in Roshar cannot be Windrunners either.
Just my thoughts.
I just found out that GraphicAudio is doing a dramatized adaption of the Way of Kings! I’ve listened to their dramatizations of Elantris and Mistborn 2, and they’re awesome – essentially audiobooks, but with a full cast, sound effects, music, &c. Sometimes a bit cheesy, but generally very cool. I’ve been dreaming about a Stormlight dramatization for a while now, so I’m really excited.
@38 Naive_misanthrope: Huh. That’s an interesting idea. Can’t say I’ve seen anything in the text that supports it, either, but it is an interesting idea.
@39 Wetlandernw: Awesome! I’ve never put together a costume myself, though I’m working on knitting a sweater with Allomantic symbols, Windrunner and Lightweaver motifs, and Lenses (ala Alcatraz).
On the blackbane: True. It does make sense that we might not see Shallan consciously thinking about what she was planning as she saved the blackbane, &c.
@40 Isilel: Oh, I agree that it makes sense for Shallan to know how to respond effectively to danger – she does, unfortunately, have a lot of experience with such things. My problem is more that her usual persona and her persona in a crisis are so different. (With this being demonstrated by how surprising it can be to see her handle violence coolly.) Of course it makes sense to act differently to some extent when in danger, but it bothers me that normal Shallan is so different. To me, it feels like another symptom of how she refuses to face difficult things in her past: she’s putting on a happy, innocent persona that’s only partially true. If she was dealing with these things and accepting all parts of herself, maybe there wouldn’t be so stark a difference between normal Shallan and Shallan in a crisis.
@34 Isilel: I don’t automatically construe a gender constraint when I consider honor personally – although you’re right that it does tend to favor a gendered perspective that favors men in a classical sense. So first let me clarify: it’s not the MEANS which strikes me as dishonorable about what Shallan did, at least the poison. The strangulation after is maybe a bit dodgier but that was something she needed to do quickly so she used the first thing at hand (plus the more merciful option, if you can apply that to murder, of slitting his throat with any of the bladed items nearby would have been much too much for Shallan, just another way for blood to set her off).
So then why do I consider the murder dishonorable?
Well, to me honor has two parts: one is an external cultural sense of honor, and from this perspective it’s hard to judge Shallan I think. Not just because the basic honor we’ve been introduced to heavily favors the male perspective – we’ve seen a lot of the book from male perspectives, and the main female one is from a relatively sheltered from society rural noble girl. Possibly we could make arguments for it based on her brothers, but as they are not of sound mind either it’s hard to say, all we know is they were horrified by the scenario, but considering how world-changing it was for them that is hard to read.
The second part of honor, the one that I think is more generally applicable in general, is the part of honor that goes into a person’s morals and ethics. And while Shallan might not give two spheres about honor, she very clearly cares about principles along those lines: it’s part of why she had a falling out with Jasnah in book 1. Shallan could only do what she did because she was in an altered state of consciousness, not quite a fugue state but what could easily be the lead-up to one. And this is where I, personally, feel the act becomes dishonorable: who Shallan was right then could not do the action she deemed necessary, so she separated herself from her regular feelings to perform that action, so that even if she committed the act it was not herself doing it.
Conversely, when Shallan does admit to doing the act, when she DOES work on trying to move past being just a lie, I would characterize that as being honorable for her. Of her trying to find her own inner accord she could follow as needed. Now understandably, for a lot of people this doesn’t count as honor, and I understand that, but I figured I’d just go into the reason why the act itself screams dishonorable to me.
And I would like to add, that just because I think it’s dishonorable, does not mean that I 1) blame Shallan for making that decision and 2) think that the action was decidedly the *wrong* one. There were definitely better options there, of course, but there were plenty worse, and more importantly, by that point their broken, tormented household reached the part where to a young teenage girl, she only saw there as being the one option. It was tragic – not because it was truly inevitable, but because all of the players involved saw in in such a way that it seemed inevitable to all and played out the way it did.
It’s for this same reason that I don’t like the cold and distant Shallan – because it’s something that Shallan does as a defense mechanism, a cloak she hides behind when she thinks she needs it. I think it’s fair to say that Shallan realizes it’s not natural for her to do this, and she does want to overcome it, but even by the end of book 2 she doesn’t want that more than she wants to still be not abjectly broken like she thinks she will be.
Which you may not agree with, as that’s my reading of the character, one I’ve had since TWoK that WoR only strengthed. It plays into my sense for what Shallan’s character arc might be, based on the trajectory of the first 2 books.
And phew that ended up going on quite longer that I thought it would. Other quick things to mention:
@16: It does come from a lovecraft-inspired game, so creepiness well justified I think! lol
Genders and how they play into the Orders: @38 already brought up that pre-Vorin culture was less gender-divided, but I think it’s also important to remember that the Orders eventually formed…under the Heralds, who were an even gendered split. Admittedly each Order might have favored the gender of its herald, but I think having an organization of 10 important religious figures being equally gendered might have helped (YMMV though, maybe that would just have caused more issues – it’s certainly true that some very gendered societies had diverse pantheons).
Syl and Shallan: I’m with @44 here, that it comes down more to temperament here. Not that there needs to be a single consistent temperament across all the Radiants of an Order, but I think certain similar aspects probably appeal to an order of sprens, which are probably more easily characterized by basic catch-all terms like “honor.”
But it’s hard to say anything about this beyond mere speculation because we have no in-book examples of the Radiant spren types interacting with members of different Radiant Orders beyond the assertions from an in-world text that we can’t be sure of how much is truly reliable…which is why I think that’s one of the common desires you see pop up in the fandom.
As a final aside, a couple days back I was skimming through some Shakespeare (I was in line at one of those warehouse stores, and for some reason a person left one of those unabridged collections of all his works in a checkout stand holding a bunch of Easter books for young children – odd to be sure). Although it’s not really that close, going over Act V of Hamlet again made me muse over the vague similarities between Shallan’s final flashback and Act V. Admittedly, a very minor connection, mostly driven by their nature as tragedies and the involvement of both a duel and poison in the climax.
I’m confused – how does Shallan disassociating her conscious mind from her emotional responses make her “not herself?” Is that supposed to be some exculpating state? It seems central to your argument about her killing her father being dishonorable, but I really don’t see how that would reduce her responsibility for that act.
@47 FenrirMoridin: “It’s for this same reason that I don’t like the cold and distant Shallan – because it’s something that Shallan does as a defense mechanism, a cloak she hides behind when she thinks she needs it.” Yes. I don’t have an issue with somebody changing their behavior significantly simply to survive. But I don’t think Shallan is switching between personas just to survive: she’s also doing it to hide from painful truths. I believe as a Lightweaver her purpose is to create lies in order to reveal truth, not to hide it.
Also, I should note that we’ve seen these shifts in perspective actually hamper survival at times. Last chapter, for instance, Kaladin had to remind Shallan about her Shardblade and how she could use it; she still didn’t want to think about it.
As for Hamlet: hey, so long as Shallan didn’t kill her mother by pouring poison in her ear. :) I love Hamlet, but that particular assassination method cracks me up.
Oh and on another subject: I’ve been listening to and transcribing from Mark Lindberg’s recording of the Austin signing, and I think I found Braid_Tug and sheiglagh’s questions that we were discussing last week. If you’re interested, here’s a transcription of what I could get from the recording. I think it might help to clear up some of the questions we had after hearing the signing reports.
(The whole transcription I’m contributing to is at https://docs.google.com/document/d/1QIgYB34Q4u1fHL-6tnEM8zqt-Eifq7did4mV0-zBmlk)
@49: Thanks for posting the exact wording. It is the first time I see the transcript, last I checked it wasn’t available yet.
So the exact words more or less confirmed in parts some of the character related theories I have had in the past: Adolin is unconsciously sabotaging his relationships because he is afraid (of being good which seems strange, I’ll have to think about it some more) and Dalinar is too hard on Adolin while being too lenient on Renarin/Elhokar.
I’m glad I had those confirmations.
It’s very much inline with some of my personal character related behavioral speculations, so I am keen to see how much of it I got right.
@48 Torvald_Nom: It’s a bit hard to explain, but I’ll try. Shallan through out the first two books struggles to find herself. Her major problem being that she can’t properly reconcile the very different parts of herself (thus mixing the truth and lies). It’s a bit weird when we talk about her father’s death because since book 1 she’s basically come to terms with it. But that is the Shallan half a year to a year from now, not the one in the flashback. So, I hope that explains my position some? Unless you meant like legal responsibility, but that was not what I was trying to say, as that’s a much more complicated matter imo.
I want to add that my perspective isn’t exactly fair, which I recognize; but both Shallan and Kaladin haven’t led very fair lives, and neither character is exactly fair to themselves either (although Kaladin is much worse in this regard).
@49: Hamlet is my favorite Shakespeare play, but I’m kind of biased, it was the only one we covered in high school which I feel like I gave a fair shake. But then, I think it also appealed to me because it’s a study into madness…and well WoT is one of my favorite series, so there’s that bias as well.
And thanks for making the transcript, you’re doing good (nerd) work.
@51: Ha, a year ago I can remember my sister and I making fun of people who did transcripts, and now I’m doing them myself. But it’s actually really fun listening to the signing audio and hearing Brandon Sanderson chatting with fans, his Sharpie squeaking along pages, kids/babies making noise in line…
@@@@@39: Thanks for that link! Interesting reading. I posted a few other tidbits below that I think relate to questions people had here.
& sheesania, I totally understand your points @@@@@ 52. funny how things happen. :-D
[57:35]
Q: Do you wish you had [?] any of your stories based on fan feedback?
A: No, with the exception of a few things in the Wheel of Time, where there a few things I don’t think I got quite right. With my books, I’m pretty confident…I mean, that doesn’t mean everyone will love everything about them, but I’m confident that I told the story I wanted to tell, and sometimes that’s not the story everybody wants, but it is the story I felt was the right story.
[1:30:15]
Q: There is a metal used to charge in the last Mistborn book, is that lithium?
A: Ah, nnnnn… [Sounds like he’s going to say “no” but then changes his mind] I’ll dig into that, that’s another RAFO. But I’m glad you’re thinking along those lines. Let’s just say that.
2:28:05
Q: Why does Nightblood need to eat Investiture?
A:So, Nightblood is… leaky, is how would say it.
Q: Does his sheath help with this somehow?
A: Yes.