Welcome back to the Words of Radiance Reread on Tor.com! Last week, Dalinar received a surprise or two that he badly needed. This week, he has his first actual conversation with a Listener since his brother was killed, and learns more surprising new notions.
This reread will contain spoilers for The Way of Kings, Words of Radiance, and any other Cosmere book that becomes relevant to the discussion. The index for this reread can be found here, and more Stormlight Archive goodies are indexed here.
Click on through to join the discussion!
Chapter 79: Toward the Center
Point of View: Dalinar
Setting: The Shattered Plains
Symbology: Kholin Glyphpair, Chach
IN WHICH Dalinar muses on recent revelations; Rlain is interviewed by his commanding officer; mysteries of the Listeners are uncovered; Rlain’s fears for his people are honored; he agrees to help Dalinar for their sake.
Quote of the Week
“You answer me when I ask,” Dalinar said. “But not the others. Why?”
“You’re my commanding officer,” Rlain said.
“You’re Parshendi.”
“I…” The man looked down at the ground, shoulders bowing. He raised a hand to his head, feeling at the ridge of skin just where his skullplate ended. “Something is very wrong, sir. Eshonai’s voice… on the plateau that day, when she came to meet with Prince Adolin…”
“Eshonai,” Dalinar prompted. “The Parshendi Shardbearer?” Nearby, Navani scribbled on a pad of paper, writing down each word spoken.
“Yes. She was my commander. But now…” He looked up, and despite the alien skin and the strange way of speaking, Dalinar recognized grief in this man’s face. Terrible grief. “Sir, I have reason to believe that everyone I know… everyone I loved… has been destroyed, monsters left in their place. The listeners, the Parshendi, may be no more. I have nothing left….”
“Yes you do,” Skar said from outside the ring of guards. “You’re Bridge Four.”
Rlain looked at him. “I’m a traitor.”
“Ha!” Rock said. “Is little problem. Can be fixed.”
Unhappy Rlain. He went in good faith to do a hard task, in service to the survival of his people—and now it seems to have all been in vain. The people of his birth are no more; they have become what they had for centuries sacrificed their heritage to avoid. He feels a traitor to the people of his new loyalty, those who accepted him and gave him fellowship.
Fortunately, his new people refuse to abandon him, and his new commander vows to help save what may be left of his race. Still, it’s a hard place to be. I do hope he becomes a Windrunner squire, at least!
Off the Wall
Q: For what essential must we strive? A: The essential of preservation, to shelter a seed of humanity through the coming storm. Q: What cost must we bear? A: The cost is irrelevant. Mankind must survive. Our burden is that of the species, and all other considerations are but dust by comparison.
—From the Diagram, Catechism of the Back of the Flowered Painting: paragraph 1
I may be jumping to conclusions, but this would seem to imply that either Taravangian was not, at the time of this writing, aware of humanity on other worlds, or that his understanding of the conflict assumed Roshar as the last defense of the Cosmere. I lean toward the former; it seems possible that seven-or-so years ago (whenever he had That Brilliant Day) he may not yet have been aware of the worldhoppers. There is one hint that he may have become aware of something odd about either Hoid or Mraize, but it’s not solid.
Also? Totally EJM approach. The end, according to the Diagram, justifies any and every means.
In the for-what-it’s-worth department, Taravangian noted in TWoK that the Death Rattles first came to notice well before Gavilar’s assassination—in fact, at about the time he first made contact with the Parshendi. It is a commonly-held assumption that Taravangian went to the Nightwatcher after Gavilar’s death, but we also know that he uses the Death Rattles to update, interpret, or guide the use of the Diagram. It doesn’t prove Taravangian had already written the Diagram when the Death Rattles began, but there may, perhaps, be a correlation.
Commentary
Repeating the cut text for emphasis,
Dalinar felt as if he were trying to stop a dam from breaking, all the while not knowing where the leaks were actually coming from.
This chapter gives a deep sense of teetering on the brink of something, with Dalinar the one responsible for the next step that may save them all, or plunge them all into chaos. He’s received startling information about the Radiants actually re-forming, plus Jasnah’s belief of the Voidbringers returning, and he’s fitting both of those into the visions he’s been receiving. With the discovery of red-eyed Parshendi, his own observation confirms the return of terrible foes who had been thought to be mere legend and folk tale. The world is shifting around him, and he has to try to hold it all together as best he can.
Into this mess walks Rlain: thought to be a parshman, revealed to have been a spy, and now returned as a warrior whose former leaders have betrayed him. He brings further evidence that the legends are, in fact, all too real.
“You spoke of the Parshendi,” Dalinar said. “This has to do with the red eyes?”
Rlain nodded.
“What does it mean, soldier?” Dalinar asked.
“It means our gods have returned,” Rlain whispered.
“Who are your gods?”
“They are the souls of those ancient. Those who gave of themselves to destroy.” A different rhythm to his words this time, slow and reverent. He looked up at Dalinar. “They hate you and your kind, sir. This new form they have given my people… it is something terrible. It will bring something terrible.”
Yeah, that’s not ominous or anything. We still don’t know for sure who/what their gods are, though it’s reasonable to assume the Unmade are part of it somehow. This seems to imply that perhaps the Unmade were once people (of whatever race) who chose to join Odium.
Speculation: Some group of people, perhaps a part of the Listeners of 5 or more millennia ago, chose to join with Odium against Honor and Cultivation—and, by extension, against humanity. Even, perhaps, because of the “invasion” of humanity onto Roshar. They gave themselves over to his purposes, with the result that some of them lost all but meager scraps of their cognitive selves, while others were Unmade from their physical forms as they became vessels for Odium’s Splinters.
Feel free to maul that around; there will be further discussion of the subject when we hit Chapter 81 in a couple of weeks.
In any case, it’s clear now—to Dalinar as well as to the reader—that the new stormform, purpose-driven by the old gods, does not bode well for his army and his prior hopes for a peaceful solution. Rlain’s words here make it eminently clear that they are The Enemy in a new and dreadful way.
The tensions in this chapter are starting to run high; clearly, we’re approaching the Avalanche. At the beginning, it’s noted that they’re all restless, partly due to discovering the red-eyed Parshendi, and partly due to the anticipation of an attack at any time. Rlain’s information obviously adds to that, but he also brings in a separate note of tension: the parshmen. While the slaveforms themselves may not care much, a dullform notices and remembers far more—and a warform, remembering, is very much not pleased at the Alethi treatment of his race.
Despite such displeasure, he has returned to Dalinar’s army with information about the stormforms, and it serves to emphasize the depth of his apprehension for his people. He’s willing to accept as necessary the destruction of all those who have taken stormform, but he’s clearly troubled by the thought of what they may have done to the elderly and the children, and any others who chose not to take the stormform.
Dalinar, honorable man that he (now) is, simply accepts another burden in his struggle to protect the innocent and save the world from the coming Desolation.
Bridge Four does the same thing, but in a different way: they very forthrightly insist that Rlain is Bridge Four, his load is their load.
Rlain looked at him. “I’m a traitor.”
“Ha!” Rock said. “Is little problem. Can be fixed.”
Have I ever mentioned that I adore Rock?
By the way, it’s worth noting that General Khal, Renarin, Aladar, and Roion are the ones off in another tent going over tactics, while Dalinar focuses on Rlain. It seems an odd mix of planners. The question—not that it really matters—is whether Renarin is part of that meeting because he has something to contribute, or because Dalinar wants him listening and learning. Most readers will probably lean toward the latter, but I’m developing a suspicion that people in-book may have overlooked Renarin’s tactical and strategic understanding due to his reluctance to speak out.
Stormwatch
Dalinar leaned forward, clasping his hands before him. “The countdown?” he asked.
“Three days away,” Navani said. “Three days before Lightday.”
So little time. “We hasten our pace,” he said.
Inward. Toward the center.
And destiny.
Ars Arcanum/Ars Mechanica
It’s interesting to note that Rlain doesn’t actually explain how his people change forms—merely that they do. It’s also interesting to note this exchange from the JordanCon RAFOlympics:
Q: When a Parshendi changes forms, are they taking different spren into their gemhearts?
A: When a Parshendi changes forms, they are….[carefully] entering into a symbiotic relationship with a new spren. [laughter] That’s the answer you’re going to get. That’s a RAFO.
So he wouldn’t deny the gemheart suggestion, but also refused to confirm it. Nice try, though.
Heraldic Symbolism
Chach stands alone over this chapter, and it’s a poignant statement. The Guard, brave and obedient. If that doesn’t describe Rlain in this scene, I don’t know what does! It also describes Adolin, standing on guard very nearby in case his father is in any danger; Teleb, guarding the erstwhile prisoner; Skar and Rock, guarding their fellow bridgeman; Dalinar, facing the challenge of guarding his world from the coming Desolation—including the innocent members of the race that has turned back to serving the Desolation. Definitely teetering.
Shipping Wars
Adolin was betrothed to a member of the Knights Radiant.
Two interesting little notes in this section. One is that Dalinar has apparently stopped thinking of it as merely a causal betrothal, even though we haven’t seen them go through any further formalities. It’s just “betrothed.” Two, it doesn’t appear to cross his mind that Shallan’s impending Radiantness might affect the situation. Given that he learned at the same time that said Radiantness was a large part of Jasnah’s rationale in putting the betrothal forward, I suppose that makes sense. Maybe?
It might also be worth noting that we haven’t seen Dalinar wonder how Adolin might react when he learns that his betrothed is a Lightweaver-in-training. Then again, there are a few other things going on just now, which some might say have a legitimate ability to draw his attention away from his son’s romantic entanglements…
Just Sayin’
The tent flaps parted and Adolin ducked in, escorting Navani. She hung her stormcoat on the rack beside the flap, and Adolin grabbed a towel and began drying his hair and face.
Heh. In our world, we have raincoats. On Roshar, they have stormcoats.
There. That ought to keep us busy until next week, when more Parshendi and a king will be encountered.
Alice Arneson is a long-time Tor.com commenter and Sanderson beta-reader, and is still recovering from her first JordanCon. Also, a head cold. Oh well.
Sooo close to getting to the really juicy chapters!
It took me a good five minutes to figure out EJM = end justifies the means because I thought it was some sort of acronym relating to a sect of the Radiants. I was like….earth….jar…maker? Edge….jackal…mancer?
It might be more accurate to say he’s received information about the Radiants re-emerging, since most are doing so in isolation. Dalinar’s role is to forge the institution out of the members. All along, he’s been getting messages about bringing people together.
I hope the future brings us more Rlain. Having a Listener fighting with humanity to redeem his own people makes it less of a clash of civilizations kind of thing and more a battle for all life on Roshar.
‘Those who gave of themselves to destroy’ = Unmade lines up pretty well. It’s a spot-on description: the gave their being (physically becoming unmade) to attain their power and influence in Odium’s faction.
I think we’re looking at the majority of the old Listener population being manipulated by their gods into fighting for Odium. One of the Parshendi names for themselves is the Last Legion, which could suggest that they are the descendants of the last group to resist Odium’s control.
I’m kind of a newbie to this world here, but would the term for “Radiantness” be “Radiance”? Being as it is, after all, in the title.
I hope we see more Rlain in future books too. Alice, hope you feel better soon, extra vitamin c seems to help me with head colds. Thanks for a great Post as always!
Austin @1 – I know, right? Every week, it’s like we take a breath… and then another… and then another… I’m going to hyperventilate, at this rate!
SunDriedRainbow @2 – Uh… sorry? I usually try to avoid obscure acronyms, but sometimes they slip through.
Halien @3 – You’re quite correct: re-emerging is a much better word. I just couldn’t get hold of it while I was writing. “Re-forming” was clearly not the best choice, but it was the best I could find at the time. I do like the suggestion that the Last Legion was the only group who managed to resist Odium’s control; I think it’s fairly well supported by the text and the implications of the context.
theelfling @@.-@ – Well, perhaps, but I like making up words occasionally. It’s the price I exact for my labors. My other option was Radianticity. ;) (My spell-checker didn’t like it either.)
Also, welcome!
radiantflower @5 – Vitamin C FTW! It’s not too bad, all things considered. At least I didn’t get ConCrud – just a cold shared by my son.
“Feel free to maul that around”
The expression you’re looking for is “mull around” or “mull over” although I like the imagery of mauling something around.
I like the concept that the Unmade chose to follow Odium and voluntarily became unmade as a result of the human “invasion” of Roshar. It makes sense and sets up a nifty story-telling conflict.
(Editing, just for fun:)
Wrchll @7 – N, th xprssn ws lkng fr ws “ml tht rnd.” Bcs tht’s wht w d t spcltns nd thrs. W ml thm, bt thm p, lk fr plcs w cn brk thm prt. f thy rmn plsbl vn ftr sd mlng, thy mv frm “lny” t “vld.”
(Hey, it’s kinda fun to disemvowel yourself. ;) )
Huh. My post didn’t post, though it shows up in the conversations list. As soon as I repost it, I dare say it will be there twice. o.O
Werechull @7 – No, the expression I was looking for was “maul that around.” Because that’s what we do with speculations and looney theories: we maul them, we beat them up, we take them apart if we can. If it comes out the other side still looking plausible, it moves from “looney” to “valid” theory. Still a theory until verified by text or WoB, of course.
Mulling is much too gentle for what we do to theories. :D
ETA: and there it is… Now I have to go find something else to say to replace the double post! Or ask the moderators to delete it.
@@@@@10. Wetlandernw
I like the disemvoweled one.
@9 the disemvoweling hurt my eyes haha.
I love reading the comments on all of these! Haha I used to think I knew so much about the Cosmere but half the time I have no idea what y’all are talking about! One of these days we need to have an online class of known Cosmere history and theories!
P. S. Please let there not be a love triangle for S/A/K. Shallan and Adolin are perfect and we have enough love triangles in the YA reading world to last a lifetime.
P. P. S. It will be very interesting what will happen when everyone finds out about what Adolin did at the end of this book.
Only an airsick lowlander wouldn’t adore Rock.
This chapter… Here are a few random thoughts I have collected while reading the review.
Bridge 4 is a very tight group: they stick together and even if one of them is found guilty of “something”, they still refuse to prosecute him. It makes me wonder if Bridge 4 would still be willing to take Moash in despite his actions against the king… I also think it quite strange the Windrunners squires aren’t required to uphold the strict honorable line. Rlain lied, didn’t he? He was a spy. He admitted his guilt, but he was allowed to stay by both Bridge 4 and Mr Super Honorable Who Will Never Accept People Taking One Step Away From His Rules. This bothers me… because Dalinar has a double standard when it comes to applying his rules. In other words, they are flexible when he wants them to be flexible.
Dalinar and Jasnah are very similar: both see the obvious advantage into tying Shallan, a proto-Radiant, to their family, but neither is thinking of the collateral damage it may do to Adolin. Nobody has even one thought as to how he would feel in such a union. Dalinar may have the excuse of having more pressing matters into his head, but he yet found the time to assess Kaladin and Renarin’s emotional issues. Why can’t he spend 2 seconds to think about what it means for Adolin? Why is everyone forgetting he even exist up until they need someone to kill something?
Why isn’t Dalinar assessing the fact Adolin does not know about Shallan’s true nature? Why is it alright with him his son, the first impacted with this news, is not even aware of it? Why do they all think it is alright to lie to Adolin? This bothers me. He should have been told: right now. Once Dalinar found out, his next step should have been to require Shallan to tell the truth to his son or else do it himself. The fact nobody thinks Adolin deserves the truth is very bothersome. It gets even worst has Shallan would have likely NOT tell Adolin had he not seen it for himself…
Renarin being into the tactical meeting… Well, not having military aptitude does not mean he can’t contribute and the fact he was there shows he perhaps had an input. The question should more be why Adolin wasn’t there? Why are they having a tactical meeting without him? He was scouting, but shouldn’t this task been given to someone else?
@12: What will happen? The Fall Arc for Adolin. Everything in the relationship between Adolin and his father points towards an impending catastrophe: neither will walk out of it unscathed, but it is fair to assume Adolin will suffer the most from the ordeal. His reputation, at the very least, will forever be ruined.
“[…] I’m developing a suspicion that people in-book may have overlooked Renarin’s tactical and strategic understanding due to his reluctance to speak out.”
I agree. Unfortunately, we haven’t seen enough of Rennin to know just how astute he is. Hopefully, since the next book is Dalinar’s, we’ll be privy to some meaningful scenes between the two of them.
@@@@@ Gepeto
Interesting point about Adolin not being in the tactical meeting. Do you suppose he insisted on guarding Dalinar instead of attending?
I will be disemvoweling some of my posts just because.
I wonder if how advanced Glys is? Does Glys have as much memory as Wyndle appears to have. Or has Glys lost most of his/her memory like Syl.
Ways @16. I think you hit the nail on the head. Adolin felt the need to protect Dalinar was more important than participating at the tactical meeting.
Thanks for reading my musings.
AndrewHB
(aka the musespren)
Spoiler for Dalinar preview from the next book:
When Dalinar was young, he wasn’t interested in tactical discussions, either, he just wanted to fight. Adolin might not know about that, but he is imitating his father when he wants to protect him instead of attending meetings.
Perhaps the tactical meeting was a means to keep the other High Lords busy while Dalinar questioned Rlaine. Rennin was there so he could report back/ keep an eye on them.
@14 on Rlain lying and does that conflict with him being a potential Windrunner squire. I think the motivation behind the lie matters a great deal. He was trying to learn information to protect his people. As soon as his people were corrupted, he again made the very hard decision to approach those people he betrayed to ask for protection for what remained. Feels about as consistent as it can get with my understanding of a Windrunner’s purpose.
As far as Dalinar is concerned about being flexible about his rules being broken, we are talking about the behavior of a person of a race they had openly declared war and have been killing for years. I’m not sure I’ve seen anything in the codes of war for their culture that indicates that warfare has to be done without spying to gain tactical advantages.
My personal thoughts are Adolin’s absence from the tactical meeting indicates something deeper: it is a foreshadowing of the future events. How so? Throughout the book, we see Adolin progressively become more and more obsessed over his father’s security. The Tower, Szeth’s attack, the assassination attempts, all of those events could have killed him or at the very least severely injured him, but none of his fears are directed towards his personal safety: all are geared towards his father.
This isn’t normal: children, even adult children are not supposed to give their life for their aging parents. Most aging parents would never have it anyway: the young have to be encouraged to live, not the other way around. This is the natural way of things… Which parents would let their children sacrifice their young life for their aging bones? And yet such is the Adolin/Dalinar relationship which is why I keep referring to it as “unhealthy”.
My thoughts are Adolin is absent from the meeting not because he is uninterested in war tactics (he has shown interest in other scenes), but because it was more important to him to personally see to his father’s safety as opposed to hearing the obviously more important discussion. It is likely he wouldn’t be told otherwise which is probably why Renarin was sent in his place: someone from the Kholin’s household had to be there.
In any way, it foreshadows host how deeply Adolin is affected by the events and it highlights the fact he has slowly moved towards instability ever since the end of WoK. It is happening, right here, under our nose, but since the focus never truly is on Adolin, it passes under the radar up until he does the improbable. Killing Sadeas has been foreshadowed and not just be the iddle threat he utters in the storm cellar: it has been foreshadowed by his constant nervous effort to always be at his father’s side, his growing obsession over his father’s security and his inability to accept something he cannot control may happen. Dalinar has accepted there were risks, he had to live with them and treat them as they come forth, but Adolin just can’t. He cannot accept the fact someone may threaten Dalinar’s life which is why he launches at Sadeas. It wasn’t just the instability of the situation or the threats the man made: it was all of Adolin’s uncontrollable fears someone may harm the most important person in his life, a thought he cannot personally bear, which accumulated into one angry lashing.
Fear. I think it is important to note how central it is to Adolin as a character. He is afraid.
As Rlain, I’d say he was an enemy warrior who lied about being a spy. In which world is it so easy for Dalinar to simply forgive him? It bothers me to see Dalinar be such a good leader and a genuinely concern one each time the issue tackles anyone else but his own son. I find it painful to read at times.
On Renarin: We just don’t know either way whether Renarin is secretly a master strategist. The two times we’ve seen him inject himself in a combat situation both involved running headlong into danger unarmored. Brave, unquestionably, but not exactly brilliant tactics. OTOH, planning and the heat of the moment are different beasts.
On Dalinar keeping Shallan’s secret from Adolin: I don’t really fault him for not saying anything at this exact moment. He and Adolin were both a tad distracted. Earlier, his mind had just been blown. But he has three more relatively quiet days during which he could have urged Shallan to spill. Adolin deserves to know the Radiants are back not only as Shallan’s fiancé but also as the heir to the Kholin highprincedom on the eve of battle.
I would call hand of the author, but, well, Dalinar is bad at delegating and Shallan is bad at honesty.
On Rlain: Personally, I have real trouble considering a member of an enslaved race acting to subvert his “owners” being a traitor in the moral sense. When this situation changed, so did Rlain: it didn’t take him long after Kaladin armed him, making him no longer a slave, to walk away from his post as a spy. IMO, he acted honorably, and while that doesn’t give him a free pass from the consequences, he doesn’t expect one.
Although I wonder which side Rlain was thinking of with the traitor remark. By freely placing himself back under Dalinar’s command, he was in a sense betraying his people – either betraying them, or giving them up for lost. Both options, which are not emotionally exclusive, carry an immense weight of guilt. I think the choice he made to return to the Kholin army was the most personally difficult he could have made, but also the best for all his loyalties. Eshonai’s situation is horrifying; Rlain’s is just heart-wrenching.
On a lighter note, we’d pretty much be breaking a law of storytelling not to get at least one Parshendi Radiant. I’m totally rooting for Eshonai the Willshaper, but what about Rlain, who does his utmost to guard his people regardless of personal cost, as a Dustbringer? Brave and obedient, double-check, in spades.
@23: Rlain as Dustbringer – I like that theory. Plus it would be an unexpected way of pulling it off. You are the first person to bring it up. Brandon has said we’ve meet the Dustbringer, but I think he said we have not had a POV from them. (I could be wrong, there are ton of WoB out on the internet.)
Moash & Bridge 4 – I don’t see them forgiving Moash, if they ever see him again. Which would be bad story telling for it not to happen.
Dalinar, he may want things to be black and white, but he’s lived and killed too much to know that they are. The man lived in the grey zone of life too long. He’s not throwing stones, but yes, he is hopeful that his sons can hold harder to a code he didn’t learn until too late in life.
@22 Gepeto
I wouldn’t call loving another person “unhealthy”, or being willing to sacrifice your life for them a sign of a destructive relationship. Adolin is thoughtlessly brave when it comes to his own safety, but he worries about the people he loves. This may be unwise, but it is certainly not morally wrong.
Given the past and ongoing threats from Sadeas and the Assassin in White, Adolin’s concern with Dalinar’s personal safety is entirely justified. As the best swordsman and duelist in Dalinar’s army, his service as a guard may be more valuable than his servant as an advisor; Dalinar has other men who can help with tactics, and no one can use a Shardblade as well as Adolin.
Though I haven’t always been the biggest Adolin fan, I always admired his love for his father and brother. There’s no reason why a loving son should be willing to accept threats against his father, or why a brave soldier would be willing to let his commander die to save his own life. Why should Adolin accept the fact that someone can threaten or harm his father? Stabbing Sadeas is an entirely reasonable response to an ongoing problem, and an excellent way to gain control over a difficult situation. He may not be able to stop the Assassin in White, but Adolin can make sure Sadeas never endangers his father’s life again.
Rlain is loyal to his own people, which Dalinar respects. Everyone assumed that parshmen weren’t intelligent enough to be spies, but everyone was wrong. Rlain has information Dalinar needs and has done nothing to harm Dalinar’s people. Dalinar wanted to make peace with the Parshendi anyway, so forgiving a defecting enemy spy isn’t a big deal, especially when they come with vital news.
Re: telling Adolin about Shallan being a Radiant – Keep in mind that this is not something Dalinar has a right to do. Shallan demanded that he not tell anyone without her leave. She has her own reasons for keeping it secret, and she doesn’t want it getting out without careful consideration. Clearly she intends to use it for good to the Kholin cause; she shared it with Dalinar for a reason. But she has an active interest in keeping it from the Ghostbloods, and without knowing who stands where, it’s better if it is only known to a few. Sure, we can look at it and think that it would be appropriate for Adolin, Navani, and a few others to know – but they don’t need to know right now, and Shallan needs some time to figure out how to use her ability to help.
Later events rather take it out of her hands, of course: once she finds the Oathgate and determines how it works, she can either keep her secret or take it – and the entire army – to the grave with her. At this point, though, she’s not yet sure how she may want to use her position & abilities, and there’s a strong possibility that general knowledge of her Lightweaving could diminish her usefulness.
Also, this is the first time we’ve been in Dalinar’s head since Shallan gave him this news the previous day. Who knows what he’s been thinking about, besides pushing on toward the center?
ETA: dptullos @25 – Yes! All this. Well stated.
@23 Gepeto
I think Adolin just has a case of hero worship for Dalinar. He grew up close to the legend of the Blackthorn and he struggles to accept his father’s transformation. As a result, he undervalues his own role and abilities at the same time that Dalinar is pushing him to take on more responsibility.
I don’t see Adolin as unstable. He’s a fairly young soldier from a prominent family trying to do the most responsible thing he can. He sees that his father is becoming a fulcrum for future events and dedicates himself to making sure that Dalinar lives to play that role. That’s a lot of trust to place in a person, even your own father. We can debate whether or not killing Sadeas is the best way to act on those instincts, but I see his choices as rational within that frame.
@23 AriadneAdler
I don’t think it would make sense for Renarin to secretly be a tactical genius. The secret he revealed at the end of WoR was enough of a surprise already, but it plays to the things we already know about his personality. There’s nothing in the book that suggests Renarin has secretly mastered military science.
The mention of “Preservation” would seem to foreshadow intervention by its current holder, Sazed. (Is the time sequence right? I believe WOR happens after the second Mistborn series.)
Brandon Sanderson is the sort of writer that doesn’t drop keywords by accident,
Along the same lines, has anyone else noticed that “Sazed” and “Szeth” look like linguistic cognates? That is, descended from the same original word like English “major” vs. Hindi “maha” vs Italian “maggiore”, all descended from the same proto-Indo-European root. Again, not something Mr. Sanderson would do by accident.
@28 Carl
Sanderson can be pretty deliberate with his language, so what you’re saying is plausible. For now, the way we see Preservation combined in Harmony doesn’t suggest the extreme that Taravangian is going to. I’d be surprised to see it show up without major developments in Sazed’s and Scadrial’s plotline.
I thought Preservation was just a reference to the Divine Intent, without actually meaning the Shard.
@28 & 29: Indeed he is deliberate. That’s how one person discovered a hidden world hopper. The name Felt showed up as guard/ scout in two places.
Listen to the Writing Excuses 7.24 in-depth on WoK. The names and naming conventions are discussed. As is the growth of Adolin’s role.
I’ll admit – “Sazed” and “Szeth” – drives me nuts. Not in a “I can’t stand this” way, but more a “I’m going to misspell and transpose them!” way.
@25: Loving a parent is not unhealthy, but I can become overbearing if it morphs into the central component of your personality. Adolin loving Dalinar is not wrong by itself, his desire to protect his superior general is not wrong either (though I would argue it isn’t his leader Adolin wants to safe keep, but his daddy, huge difference here), what is wrong is the extremes he is willing to take to ensure it. What is wrong is the fact it is ALL that matters to him: he has no concern for anything else BUT protecting Dalinar and this, this is, imho, unhealthy. You can’t live a healthy adult life if you spend your every waking moment dedicating your every actions to watch over your very capable and healthy parent in the fear some threat may come forth. At one point, you have to accept risk-free is not possible and you have to give yourself room to breath. Dalinar’s security is not Adolin’s sole responsibility, nor should it be. He is too close, both emotionally and physically, to truly play this role.
Adolin also is the leading general of the Kholin army: if there is a tactical meeting, it is imperative for him to be there. I would be seriously surprised if critical elements such as war generals purposefully omit themselves from crucial military planning on the eve of an important battle just so they could play the bodyguard to their father. This does not make sense to me. Adolin hardly is the only Shardbearer in the army: anyone else could have watched over Dalinar. The fact he insists by doing it himself is rather telling of how obsess he has become over this issue.
Dalinar perhaps has other men capable of devising tactics but considering Adolin is the one carrying it out on the field, his presence was mandatory, imho.
@26: It perhaps isn’t Dalinar to tell, but it is for him to question the validity of the casual. It is for him to insist she tells the truth to, at the very least, Adolin and Navani. He should have insisted and while it perhaps would not have changed much (as Shallan would have refused), it would have shown he actually cares. Continuing to support the engagement of his son to a woman who is withholding such a life-changing secret is just wrong and the fact Dalinar does not see the wrong, but only the advantages to his family is even more wrong. To me it highlights everything I see as wrong into the father/son relationship.
Dalinar just doesn’t seem to care about his son well-being and the fact he has “other things” to think about is not an excuse. He saw to both Renarin and Kaladin’s well-being, why not Adolin?
@27: I have stated in the past I thought Adolin hero-worshiping his father was unhealthy and I got demolished for it, just as I am currently being demolished for stating Adolin’s behavior towards his father is unhealthy.
Loving a parent is never unhealthy, but love, just as hate, can become destructive when it blinds you and it dictates your next actions. When Adolin starts to forsake his higher obligations to play the bodyguard to his father, as illustrated in the scene where he spend an entire night sitting crossed-legged at his father’s doorstep in fear Szeth would come back and in the actual one where he ignores a more important meeting where his presence was certainly required in order to watch over his father’s shoulder, then he is indeed acting very irrationally. However since love motivates him, then it can’t be wrong? You can’t love too much, but you can love badly or destructively and Adolin, right here, is destroying, slowly oh so very slowly, himself out of blind love towards his legend of a father.
I also believe Adolin has become unstable ever since the Tower: he has started to lose control. Progressively, slowly, but his fear for his father has overtaken his other obligations which is also wrong. Not wrong of him as he can’t help it, he can’t control it and worst he isn’t even aware of it, but wrong for Dalinar for not noticing before.
I know 100% of the responders on this thread severely disagrees with me, but my reading tells me this particular relationship is not healthy, it is not balanced nor equilibrate. Dalinar isn’t being a good father to Adolin. Perhaps he is a good general, a good leader to him, but he isn’t a good father and sadly, Adolin makes no distinction between the two hats his father wears.
On the side note, it also does not make sense to me Renarin secretly is a tactical genius. You can’t be a tactical genius without having any field experience: this is the difference between theoretical and applied sciences. What works in books may not work in a real life context because real life never happens as depicted in books.
@31 Braid_Tug
Thanks for the link. I’ll go check it out again. I’ve listened to it before, but that was with more of a focus on process stuff instead of story particulars.
@32 Gepeto
I always enjoy reading your takes on the chapters, since I know you often have a different viewpoint than some of the other commenters. I don’t think disagreeing means you’re getting demolished.
I think you’re right that the Dalinar-Adolin relationship is under a lot of stress and neither has much time to be a father or a son. Dalinar spends more time treating Adolin as an officer and an heir than a family member and we see him chafe at that. I see Adolin’s actions reflecting a growing respect and worry for his father.
We’ll have to see how high the price is for Adolin’s decision to take action against Sadeas. I can see it triggering a crisis in Dalinar, since he’s likely to view it as an end-justifies-the-means choice.
Braid_Tug @@@@@ 31 – Thanks for the link for the Writing Excuses podcast. Now I know where Adolin came from. :-) And Kaladin’s name. It truly is so much better than the original Merin Glad that Brandon renamed him. :-)
@34 sheiglagh: Would you briefly note the rationale that Sanderson gives for the listed names? I am curious to see if my speculations are correct. I had assumed that ‘Adolin’ is a combination of ‘adon’ meaning ‘lord’ in Hebrew, as in Nohadon or Adonalsium, and ‘lin’ (shield or tower – I forget whether tower is ‘lin’ or ‘khokh’), as in Kholin. Kaladin in this scheme would be a combination of the Herald Kalak (or the Hebrew ‘kal’ for swift, I.e. ‘fleet’) and adon
Braid_Tug @24: No one expects the Spanish Inquisition Parshendi spy!
Alice @26: You’re right about Dalinar’s promise. I don’t want to see Dalinar tell Adolin, but for Dalinar to encourage Shallan to tell Adolin (I should have been clearer about that earlier). I guess I’m complaining that he wanted to tell his girlfriend but doesn’t ask Shallan about sharing even part of the truth with his son and heir when he could very well die in battle in three days. The man has no concept of his own mortality. (On that note, I’m worried for Dalinar. How many times do people say Alethkar can’t lose him? My thumbs are pricking.)
As for Shallan, I just didn’t get the vibe that nice, logical reasons like the ones you gave were at the top of her mind. Secrets and lies make her feel safe.
Halien @27: I was actually trying to counter some earlier posters who I thought had implied the opposite. :-)
Personally, I don’t think “Renarin the Unsung Napoleon of Roshar” makes sense either. Given the examples I cited @23, I expect him to be weak at strategy. But I don’t know that. I can also devil’s-advocate that his Truthwatching should give him a strategic edge that’s right in line with his character development. I don’t know that either. Good thing there are more books coming!
@31: Thanks for the podcast link. I’ll listen to it tonight perhaps there is something in there I don’t currently know.
@33 Bah word demolished may have been strong. I feared I couldn’t find a better word and using “disagreeing” again seemed wrong, so huh I settled for demolished which may be a tad exaggerated.
I had wondered why it was I always seemed at odd with most people and I fear there is no possible answer. My own theory was I came from a much different back ground than most fantasy readers which does not make me react to the same story element as others. For instance, I can’t possibly read Dalinar/Adolin as a healthy and normal relationship. Just reading the chapter reviews make me tick in a bad way: Dalinar perhaps is the leader they currently need, but he isn’t being a good father and if how one threats his children testify of one’s ability to lead a nation, I’d say Dalinar would be a terrible choice, in the long run.
Adolin’s attitude goes beyond that of a dedicated, loyal son worrying for his father and superior officer: it goes too far, imho. His actions are too drastic and serves to testify how stressed out Adolin actually is: it doesn’t show much because he is good at hiding his weaker side and we, the readers, aren’t privy to many of his thoughts. However, if we take out the tiny little bout of Adolin and we place them together in a tapestry the story it tells is quite different.
Dalinar isn’t treating Adolin as a family member, you are right: another example is this very chapter. Dalinar never once thinks of Adolin when he learns about Shallan, not once. Sure, maybe he thought about it, off screen, but somehow I feel Brandon is telling us a story and if Dalinar was meant to be a great father, he would have write in concern, worry and questioning because these are the right emotion to feel for a father upon learning his son is betrothed to the member of an ancient very powerful group of individual. His thoughts should have first gone to his son and not to his long-term goal.
@36: Dalinar has honor, but little morality. He obeys to his rules and chooses the paths he thinks are the most honorable, he tries to do his best for his men, but he has absolutely no moral qualm at using his own son to further his goals. He also won’t choose the right path if it clashes with his rules, unless this path walks into one of his blind spot. Adolin, unfortunately, never is into one of those, which makes his father treat him as a tool more than a son.
The fact nobody thinks it is important to tell Adolin anything is troubling, to say the least… What are they going to tell him going into next book? And what will be left of him once his usefulness is expended?
I wrote up a big ‘ol wall ‘o text, but then decided to simplify to this:
I identify with Dalinar, and to an extent with Adolin. I don’t see anything they’re doing as being unhealthy. So Adolin is skipping a “crucial” meeting? A meeting in which they’re probably planning the next day’s marching path. The main rules of engagement were probably decided long before this – I highly doubt the meeting is all that important, or Dalinar would have put off speaking to Rlain or postponed the meeting so he could attend himself.
Dalinar seems like the type (and this is my personal interpretation of him) who most likely has considered (off-screen, where most of these characters lives actually happen) what this could mean for Adolin, but has decided to actually leave that up to Adolin himself. He’s previously said “I want to let my son have a say in the matter.” And there’s really no rush here – it’s not like they’re leaving on a jet plane the next day for Vegas. No, there’s no need whatsoever to rush things.
I’m much the same way. I don’t react to every little thing as if it were a live Whitespine in the family room. I don’t have to fix everything right now – and I don’t even have to fix everything personally. If Shallan and Adolin suddenly came up and announced they’d decided to marry that afternoon, I expect Dalinar would make absolutely sure Adolin knew, but why on earth (Roshar?) would he stick his nose in now?
On a different note, I definitely got more of a “keep on eye on them” vibe from Renarin participating in the tactical meeting. Like I said previously, I doubt there were all that many important tactical issues discussed. More likely, it was a discussion over which plateaus to use for the next day’s march.
On Dalinar no longer thinking of the betrothal as a “Causal”: I’m not sure that’s the case. I believe the “Causal” part of that has been left off by more than just Dalinar before, and it seems natural – especially when thinking to oneself – to simply think of it as “the betrothal.” A little like leaving off the name of which brother you’re thinking of in your head – you already know who it is, and you don’t really need to think “My brother Dave”. Just “brother” or just “Dave” will do.
Of course, that’s not to say that he isn’t considering her a more likely match for his son. Like discovering the scruffy-looking nerf-herder dating your daughter is actually a billionaire philanthropist. That’s not the same as Dalinar deciding he’s going to make it happen regardless of what Adolin wants (not that you were making that claim, Alice). More likely, he just ticked off one of the three prerequisites he previously gave Shallan (emphasis added):
Remember, Adolin has lost his mother, it’s only natural he would want to try to protect his only living parent,..
@38: Maybe because you identify more closely to Dalinar? It makes you agree with him while I tend to strongly disagree? I am the jumping around whitespine who inflames itself spontaneously if the right buttons are being pushed and I do know what it means to dwell into the extremes. My reading is Adolin is well into the extremes, right now, and my personal experience tells me this never ends well. He focuses too much on the one thing he sees as the most important and he forgets everything else: it is not good. It ends badly. The problem is when Adolin has something bugging him, it takes up all the place leaving none for other thoughts. Dalinar is the most important person in the world and he will blindly do anything to ensure his security: it sounds so innocent, but I read it as a terrible things because Adolin doesn’t have boundaries. He doesn’t know how to stop his inner spiral once he starts working, he doesn’t know how to control the flow, even worst he is not even aware of it.
The meeting may not have been crucial, this is true, but Brandon saw fit to tell us who was at it (and who wasn’t) for a reason… Was it to say Renarin was in it or was it to say Adolin wasn’t?
As for Dalinar’s thoughts when we are not around, this is true again he could have had the thoughts I fault him for not having right now, but the author chose not to show them to us. Instead, he chose to show us this side of Dalinar, the one where the rules are the most important things, more important even than his own son. It isn’t he doesn’t care, it is more he is stuck into a pattern where he cannot allow himself to care.
@39: Hmmm I could make this argument except Brandon said losing his mother had not effect whatsoever on Adolin: it isn’t a determining event in his past. So huh, I do not know. There may be some of that, but let’s not forget Adolin is not broken: he is the token normal guy or has been so far.
@22:
A while ago there was a discussion about how Odium might have a strong influence on the angry, specifically, Shallan’s father. Just saying … [Wall o’ text pocketed for when the re-read gets to Chapter 89]
(Also, first time poster on the WOR re-read. Hi everyone!)
I was reading the commentary for this chapter and a weird sense of déjà vu started to bug me. Rlain trying to serve his people as a spy, then discovering that they had been destroyed and replaced by monsters and consequently switching sides…That reminded me of something. Then I considered the whole business about the Parshendi abandoning their gods in an effort to find freedom, and I realized what was bugging me: is there some connection to the Recreance? Rlain discovers a terrible secret, then changes allegiances – is that what the Radiants did? The Parshendi abandon their gods, and the Radiants abandon their spren and their powers – is there a connection? Were there similar reasons involved? I feel like we’ve discussed this before, but Rlain’s specific case in this chapter got me thinking about it again.
Re: The origins of the Parshendi gods: I think it’s quite interesting that Rlain said the Listener gods “hate you and your kind”. So they hate humans specifically? Why would they hate humans differently from other races, if they’re just Splinters of Odium who presumably hates everybody? That would seem to support the idea that the Unmade were Parshendi who joined Odium.
Anyways, I was about to criticize that theory on the basis that we’ve never seen Splinters take on human “vessels” in the Cosmere…but then I found WoBs describing the special Breath that Returned have in Warbreaker as Splinters. So we HAVE seen a Shard bestowing Splinters on people who voluntarily accepted them. In that case, however, the Splinters didn’t take over the people who accepted them, and the Splinter-bearers continued to be fairly normal, physical human beings – they just had a few special powers. That doesn’t sound like the Unmade, but then Splinters of Odium might behave quite differently from Splinters of Endowment. So…if we consider the idea that the Unmade are Parshendi who accepted Splinters of Odium, along the lines of the Returned in Warbreaker, what other things could we extrapolate about the Unmade from that? What implications would there be?
The other thing I was wondering about the Unmade is whether they are parallel to the Heralds. The Heralds agreed to the Oathpact to help Honor; the Unmade agreed to some other terms to help Odium.
Re: Dalinar, Shallan’s secret, and Adolin: I tend to not be too hard on Dalinar for not urging Shallan to tell Adolin. They all have other things to focus on right now, and indeed it might be helpful for Adolin to not have that shock and distraction for the time being. They can get through this battle, see how things stand, and then worry about getting the relationships straightened out. As brovery points out, Shallan and Adolin aren’t about to marry; their relationship is on the side right now as they focus on the challenges of the next few days.
@28 Carl: I noticed that fishy word “preservation” too and wondered what its significance was. I’d be surprised if Sazed intervened, mostly because Sanderson seems to want to keep Stormlight from being too Cosmere-heavy and reliant on other books. But “preservation”…There’s something to that. I wonder how the Shards of Odium and Preservation would react to each other? On “Sazed” and “Szeth”, there may be some deliberate connection there…but then we also have “Vin” and “Vivenna”, “Siri” and “Sarene”, and various other similarities that seem to be just Sanderson repeating himself since he likes particular sounds and spellings.
Oh and BTW, WoR happens before the second Mistborn series, actually, though that doesn’t have much bearing on the idea of Sazed intervening.
@34 sheiglagh: I’m hoping that we get a minor cameo sort of character in SA named Merin, just for fun. That would crack me up. And if Sanderson ever writes the Warbreaker sequel, it would be hilarious to see a Devin as a nod to Mythwalker and one of the blandest Sanderson leads ever.
@41 rapahaelsk: Well, there is this recent WoB:
Sorry to welcome you by criticizing your theory, if that was indeed what you were getting at…But I am looking forward to seeing your wall o’ text!
@41: Nah no Odium involved here. We have to remember emotions are… emotions. They are neither good or evil, but just as everything, too much of one emotion can be destructive, no matter if it is anger or love.
Besides, Adolin hardly is the only character who experienced anger: Kaladin was over-ridden with it for the most part of WoR and the only reason he didn’t lash out probably was a lack of opportunity. Had Kaladin been trust in a similar situation with Amaram, alone, no witness with Amaram gloating endlessly over having killed his squad and stating how he would do everything he can to take away his position while killing his men, I suspect he too would have lashed out in anger to kill the man.
For my part, chapter 89 illustrates just how much stress and pressure Adolin has and how it has slowly, but irrevocably increased until he started to crack. After reading stories filled with both physical and psychological torture, we tend to have forgotten one of the most nasty problems in our society, one responsible for many issues: stress, anxiety in all its various forms including the ever increasingly prevalent performance anxiety.
Simply because it isn’t as obvious doesn’t mean it isn’t there.
@42: I’ll admit I tend to be hard with Dalinar mostly because I disagree so strongly with most of his behaviors. I love the character, but I dislike the man. I hate reading what he does to Adolin or, to be more precise, I love to hate reading what he does to Adolin. This particular relationship is among my favorite subjects.
On the should or did Dalinar consider telling Adolin abour Shallan’s being a radiant, I think there are two things at play here. 1 – He made a promise and it wasn’t really his secret to tell if a relationship between Adolin and Shallan is to have a chance. It is something she should choose to tell him because she knows it is the right thing to do and cares enough to be honest. Now, I suspect if she hadn’t told Adolin and someone was pushing for a wedding, he would step in. Course, the way events played out, she outed herself first to everyone out of necessity 2 – Given Adolin’s reaction to the news, I think we can assume Dalinar has at least some fundamental understanding of his son and knew it really wouldn’t bother him. One of the best parts of Adolin is his lack of jealousy.
I believe that what we are seeing from Dalinar’s treatment of Adolin indicates trust. He sees his oldest child as competent and capable, therefore he doesn’t have to spend as much headspace with worry. Kaladin, an important person in his army that he hasn’t had much time to train or Renarin with his deficiencies are much more cause for worry. He doesn’t see Adolin slowly breaking down because Adolin is keeping his problems internal so as not to distract from the war effort
Regarding Adolin as Guard instead of in the strategy meeting:
I can agree that Adolin is there because he loves his father and may be taking that to an extreme. However, he can justify his actions and those justifications are very strong. It is becoming clear that Dalinar is at least one of the most important people in Roshar and key to saving the world. He is the one receiving phone calls from on high. He is the one Szeth targeted when he was in the business of killing heads of state. Alethkar avoids civil war based in his reputation alone and at the end of the book he is the recognized leader of the New Radients. No one on Roshar can do what he does so it’s reasonable that he be protected at all costs. With Kaladin injured Adolin is probably the best protection available. In essence, Adolin is doing the right thing even if his reasons are wrong for doing so.
@44: I think what some of us are reacting to isn’t so much the fact Dalinar didn’t run to tell Adolin, but the fact he has no thought for his son combined with the fact he doesn’t push Shallan to tell him the truth. His first thought shouldn’t have been: “Oh great my son will marry a Radiant, this is great for the family and my master plan.”, but more something along the line: “Oh… Does Adolin know? Of course he doesn’t, he would have talked about it, the boy can’t hold a secret long. She needs to tell him, he needs to know, him of all people needs to know.”. For my part, I am mostly reacting to the fact, once again, Dalinar puts this own scheming above his son’s well-being.
As for Adolin’s reaction, while he isn’t a jealous person, this is true, I wouldn’t call it “a good one”. He is horribly unsettled by it, but as usual, Adolin hides his discomfort through a mask of perfection. Adolin is not reacting well to the events towards the end of the book and Shallan being a Radiant is among those who troubles him the most. It shakes his entire perception of his world, it completely destroys the foundation of his being. Adolin is akin to a house of cards: it looks grant and impressive from the outside, but take away a few cards near the bottom and he tumbles down.
My reading is Dalinar thinks he understands and knows his son well, but he doesn’t.
@45: My problem isn’t the fact Dalinar trusts Adolin, it is the fact he has muddled the boundaries in between father and Highprince, in between son and soldier. He recalls all too well Renarin is his son, Elhokar is his nephew and even Kaladin whom he treats as a surrogate son or as a boy in need of a father figure, but Adolin, he seems to have forgotten he too was his son.
My reading is Adolin doesn’t make the distinction in between his superior and his father: both wear the same hats to him, so when he disappoints one, he disappoints the other. His superior officer has to enforce the rules and the laws, but his father has to understand his son is just a human being and a young one at that, he has feelings. In other words, as a war general, Dalinar has to be hard, but as a father he has to be more lenient and considerate. He does it quite well with Kaladin which means he is capable of balancing both hats, but when it comes to Adolin, there is a hat he has a harder time wearing.
There were clues Adolin is starting to have too much on his shoulders… His behavior after Szeth attack, his very obvious nervousness upon the countdown over the wall (Dalinar and Navani did see it, they did remark it, but none saw fit to do anything about it), the 4 on 1 duel where his friends tried to have him kill, his growing obsession over his father’s security: it is there for anyone to notice, but nobody does.
@46: I agree Dalinar likely is the most important individual in Roshar and his life is precious, but it shouldn’t be Adolin’s sole task and concern. Keeping Dalinar safe should be a team effort and it shouldn’t solely fall onto his son’s shoulders. The lines are getting too muddled here and Adolin is taking it to the extremes, both personally, emotionally and physically. It isn’t just his chief of state he tries to protect, it is his father whom he loves, a lot and when it comes to Dalinar, Adolin is not being rational.
It isn’t wrong for Adolin to want to protect Dalinar, but it isn’t his task: he isn’t a bodyguard. Dalinar has people who’s responsibilities are to protect/guard him, Adolin has other responsibilities and by allowing him to follow his impulses, Dalinar is encouraging his son into his extreme behavior pattern. The amount of dedication Adolin shows towards Dalinar exceeds what is required and expected. To convince ourselves, we can examine the level of dedication Kaladin has versus Adolin. Kaladin is pushing himself hard, but he is doing it within the realm of reasonable or at least he tries to be as reasonable about it as possible: he sets a guarding pattern, he makes a rotation, he affects his best men to the most endangered individuals. He takes his task at heart, but he doesn’t chew ridgebark for an entire night sitting crossed legged on Dalinar’s doorstep in fear a threat may come forth while he isn’t the one on duty. Kaladin understands the concept of “delegating tasks” and understands he can’t be everywhere at the same time: Adolin just goes too far.
My reading is he is too emotionally invested. He’s tied in too many key elements of his persona into his father, he is too co-dependent of his father’s approval and survival and the fact Dalinar has not noticed despite the very obvious clues is a tad sad.
Edit: I have braved the interdiction and I have listened to the SA3 reading, the second Dalinar one. It was pure melody to my ears and oh… so many revelations. I dunno how much I can say, but I was super happy to find out where a certain Plate actually comes from. I hadn’t suspected this. It also makes Dalinar’s courtship of Shshshsh a much different story than I initially thought.
@42 Sheesiana I am totally jumping on Unmade=Odium’s Heralds. The coppermind doesn’t have anything on how the heralds were created(?) or started. If we knew more, then I think the Heralds/Unmade were a reaction to the other.
Also? Totally EJM approach. The end, according to the Diagram, justifies any and every means.
Wait … so there are things you would not do if by not doing them you meant the entire species of humanity would be destroyed? Holy Helll … do we think differently. For the preservation of my family there is not much I wouldn’t do. For the preservation of the species – nothing. Even if it only meant the preservation of humanity on earth.
dwcole @49 – Absolutely. Although that’s not at all what I said in the post, it is true: there are things I would not do, even if I thought that my failure to do them might mean that all humanity would be destroyed. That’s partly because I consider myself accountable to a higher authority, and partly because I don’t actually think sufficiently highly of myself as to believe that I personally control the fate of anyone.
Then again, I don’t find death all that frightening, either. There are far worse things than dying.
I fully agree with @50 Wetlandernw on her religious/moral perspective on the idea of deliberately killing the innocent for the sake of some ostensibly lofty goal. That is not a decision that a person should take upon themselves, being both a sacrilegious act and very damaging to the perpetrator. Szeth is a good example of such damage. Besides, the two-edged gift of the Nightwatcher conferred occasional high intelligence – not wisdom. At the peak of Taravangian’s intelligence, when he scribbled his thoughts all over his room, he did not display wisdom. Instead of calling for writing material, he just kept scribbling one thought over another so that it was nearly impossible for anyone to properly read – much less, interpret. The idea that he must become the “king of everything” by a campaign of violence in order to save some of humanity could be the product of a cynical/sadistic Nightwatcher or have come from Odium. A saved remnant did not require such drastic measures – only a sense of how to prepare for the coming Desolation. In any case, the author seems clearly on the side of the end not justifying the means since he has all the Radiants subscribing to the required watchword phrase “journey before destination”.
Dalinar. Dedicated dad. Deadly devastator. Desparate defender daily defeating dreadfully demonic Desolators, despite dissembling doubters, deceitful detractors, dabbling druidic Diagram drawers.
Dalinar defies destiny, dreaming ‘journey dominates destination’. Don’t doubt Dalinar!
Dreamin’? Dude’s definitely doin’ dat dope.