“I dunno,” the Star Trek fan says with a sigh. “I mean, the uniforms are all monochrome, I feel like the timeline’s all messed up, they’re just rehashing stuff they’ve done before, it all feels so military with the metal insignia, and they’re killing characters off, and it just all doesn’t feel like real Trek, y’know?”
This Trek fan is, of course, from 1982 and complaining about The Wrath of Khan.
Yes, I can do this all day.
But I won’t. Instead, let’s look back at a most uneven first season of Star Trek Discovery
This season has been a spectacular mix of really great and really wrong, crowning moments of awesome right alongside incredible head-scratchers.
There are five particularly frustrating elements of the show: two decisions that did significant damage before an episode had even aired, a third that showed a disconnect between how the show was written and how it was released, a fourth that probably sounded good in the planning stages but was a disaster in execution, and a fifth that was wrong-headed and completely avoidable.
The first was to set the show in the twenty-third century. As I said last week in my review of “Will You Take My Hand?” I don’t give an airborne intercourse that the set design and tech don’t look the same as they do in the original series. However, there are some people who do, and their opinions as viewers count, too. Yes, there are good reasons why they didn’t just mimic the tech the way they did in “Relics” and “Trials and Tribble-ations” and “In a Mirror, Darkly,” and I think they made the right choice given the initial decision to set the show ten years prior to TOS.
What I question is the need to set the show ten years prior to TOS. Why open the can of worms? Why not just do what The Next Generation did so well thirty years ago and jump the timeline forward? Yes, the last two iterations of the franchise—Enterprise and the Bad Robot movies—looked backward instead of forward. But that yielded the only one of the Star Trek TV spinoffs to fail in the marketplace, one hit movie, one hit movie that was not as well received, and one box-office flop. Moving forward, on the other hand, yielded three successful series that all ran seven years and ended on their own terms instead of being cancelled. Prequels are not the best model to choose, is what I’m saying, at least in this franchise. (Maybe it’s something about a space opera starting with “Star”…)
There’s absolutely nothing in the overall storyline of Discovery that requires it to be in the twenty-third century. Yes, it would require a war between the Federation and the Klingons after their alliance in Star Trek VI: The Undiscovered Country, but a lot can happen in a few decades’ time. Heck, the Federation-Klingon alliance went from solid to sundered to back together again just within the seven years that Deep Space Nine was on the air. Why not move ahead fifty years from the end of the Dominion War and have the Klingon-Federation alliance long shattered (maybe over the aftermath of the destruction of Romulus that was established in the 2009 film, with irreconcilable differences growing out of how to treat what’s left of the Romulans)? Over the years, the Klingon Houses have collapsed into in-fighting and T’Kuvma tries to unite them by sending them to war against the Federation, blaming the Federation alliance for everything that’s wrong with the empire. Yes, jumping the timeline means the Mirror Universe segments need to be either much different or trashed all together (though “Parallels” gives us the out of it being a different parallel timeline that isn’t the MU) and losing Sarek and Amanda and Harry Mudd, but I’m okay with excising those fannish indulgences. Yes, some good things were done with those elements (Captain Killy, the Vulcan Science Academy retcon in “Lethe”), but they were none of them crucial to the season, in my opinion. And the mycelial network and spore drive can be brand-new technology that you don’t have to come up with a reason to never have been mentioned again in any of the twenty-five seasons’ worth of episodes and ten movies that take place after this show. (Something they still haven’t done, by the way.)
Shoulda coulda woulda. We’re stuck with the 2250s timeframe now, so not much use crying about it (not that that’s stopping me or anyone else…).
The second issue was not actually starting the season at the beginning of the story, but instead with a mediocre prologue. Star Trek Discovery’s story actually starts in “Context is for Kings.” What happens in “The Vulcan Hello” and “Battle at the Binary Stars” is backstory that is good to know about in detail eventually, but not critical to get first. The season is about Michael Burnham clawing her way back to respectability. Also, the show is called Star Trek Discovery—starting off with two episodes that have nothing to do with your ship is off-putting, especially when those are the episodes you want to use to draw people to your fancy-shmancy new streaming service.
And just from a storytelling perspective, it would’ve been far more effective to be introduced to Burnham post-disgrace. Watching her being ostracized by Saru, by the Discovery crew, but Lorca giving her a chance. We would be given hints as to the awful thing she’s done, all the way up until Burnham gets the telescope that Georgiou bequeathed her at the end of “Choose Your Pain.”
After that, after Burnham watches the affectionate recording that Georgiou made for her, after seeing how badly it affected her, then we could see “Vulcan Hello”/”Binary Stars” as a flashback two-parter to provide the backstory. By then, we’re invested in Burnham, in Saru, in Lorca and Tilly and Stamets, and even in Georgiou thanks to her message to Burnham. Then we find out how this whole shebang started, and the clunky awkwardness of the scripting in the two-parter would have been leavened by having seen three good episodes prior to it.
The third problem is one that shows a disconnect between how the show was released and how it was written. These fifteen episodes were very obviously written in much the same way all the other streaming services’ original series are, in a serialized manner meant to be watched in a big chunk all at once. But the show wasn’t actually released that way, with CBS still clinging to the old once-a-week release schedule, complete with a mid-season hiatus. As a result, the hints that Lorca was from the MU and that Tyler was actually Voq were decried as predictable by an audience that had months to speculate about it. What was truly foreshadowing was criticized as being obvious because the viewership had too much time between episodes to chew on things.
The fourth problem was one that I mentioned several times in my reviews, and it never really got any better, as it was as big an issue in the finale as it was in the premiere. I appreciate that the Klingons only spoke their own language among themselves in theory. In practice, it was a disaster, as actors already slathered in latex have to wrap their lips around a nonexistent language that is very heavy on harsh consonants. Every time there’s Klingon dialogue, the whole episode grinds to a halt; it takes so long for the actors to speak their lines, you have time to read the subtitles twice.
And finally, they killed off Culber. This death was not redeemed as many had hoped, certainly not by the cheesy Stamets-talks-to-Culber’s-ghost scene in the mycelial network in “Vaulting Ambition.” Star Trek has generally been at the forefront of being progressive in speculative fiction on television. As an example, the number of SF TV shows where the primary lead is a person of color is vanishingly small, numbering less than half a dozen—but two of them are Trek shows (Discovery and DS9). However, they’ve repeatedly dropped the ball on non-heteronormative relationships, either half-assing it (“Rejoined“), botching it (“The Outcast“), or actively pretending such things don’t exist (“The Host“).
At first, Discovery changed that, giving us a wonderful relationship in Stamets and Culber, but then they decided to succumb to the oh-so-tiresome trend of killing off a gay character, which is not a section of TV Tropes you really want your show to be in.
There’s a certain lack of rhythm to the show’s story progress, which may be the result of the behind-the-scenes tumult going from a show run by Bryan Fuller to one run by Aaron Harberts & Gretchen J. Berg, and just in general, the show has about eight hundred and seventy-four people whose credit is “executive producer,” which is not always conducive to coherence…
Having said all that, the show has the one thing that characterizes Star Trek, he says punningly: the characters. In Burnham, Saru, Stamets, and Tilly, we have a core set of characters that are interesting, that have grown, that are fascinating (sorry…), and that are worthy successors to the core characters of the past five shows, from T’Pol, Tucker, and Phlox on Enterprise to Kirk, Spock, and McCoy on the original series to Janeway, Seven of Nine, and the EMH on Voyager to Picard, Data, and Worf on TNG to, well, everyone on DS9.
Burnham is a strong lead, a person who has an inherent nobility of purpose, but who also is, to quote her foster brother, a mass of conflicting impulses, as she struggles with the balance between logic and emotion, but coming at it from the opposite direction as Spock. Stamets is a delight, going from snarky and obnoxious—a scientist, a man of peace, trapped in a war effort—to the hippy-dippy engineer, as exposure to the mycelial network opens up the possibilities of the universe to him. And Tilly is a goofy-ass diamond in the rough whom we see being honed into a strong officer (hooray for Captain Killy!), but still one who has a ton to learn (like when to stop talking).
Then we have Saru. I gotta say that even if I liked nothing else about Discovery, I would think the show was worth it because it gave us Doug Jones’s magnificent character. Saru is quintessential Star Trek: noble, unsure of himself, complicated, heroic. The concept of his species is a fantastic one, and many of the season’s best moments come from Saru. There’s his reading of Lorca and Tyler’s escape from the Klingons to figure out that the captain and future security chief are there, using his instincts as a prey animal, in “Choose Your Pain.” There’s his stirring speech after Lorca’s duplicity is exposed about how it’s their ship in “What’s Past is Prologue.” There’s his “we are still Starfleet” speech in “The Wolf Inside.” There’s the compassion he shows to Tyler in “The War Without, the War Within” and prior to that, the expert way he manipulates L’Rell, playing on her love for Voq, but also refusing to accept her chest-beating about war in “Vaulting Ambition.” There’s his using a bizarre form of the scientific method to help guide him as acting captain, which he then abandons when he realizes that comparing himself to the likes of Georgiou, Decker, and Pike isn’t the way to do it, also in “Choose Your Pain.” And there’s his entire arc in “Si Vis Pacem, Para Bellum” where he gets his heart’s desire and has it yanked away from him.
Even though the overall story didn’t always entirely work, there are individual sequences that did so very nicely, above and beyond the various great moments Saru had (particularly in the final batch of episodes). The solution to Mudd’s Groundhog Day time-looping in “Magic to Make the Sanest Man Go Mad” was beautifully handled, and done so in a manner that provided spectacular character development for both Stamets and Burnham. (And we got to see Lorca killed multiple times!) The action scenes—never among Trek‘s strong suits in the past—were actually all very well choreographed, from the two fights on the sarcophagus ship in both “Battle at the Binary Stars” and “Into the Forest I Go” to Lorca’s rebellion on the Charon in “What’s Past is Prologue” to Emperor Georgiou tormenting L’Rell in “Will You Take My Hand?”
Unlike many, I do not find the revelation that Lorca is a nasty bad guy to be a disappointment. The argument—and it’s a good one, simply one I disagree with—is that Lorca went from being a nuanced complex Starfleet officer who maybe was pushing the envelope of the right thing to a mustache-twirling villain. The thing is, the mustache-twirling villain was always there, he was just lurking under Jason Isaacs’s charm and his attempt to fit into the strange universe where he didn’t belong.
But this is a person who left Mudd behind, who left Cornwell to be kidnapped by Klingons, who showed absolutely no evidence of sympathy for the tardigrade, and who generally was an asshole. And often evil hides behind a charming facade. The cliche about the serial killer whom everyone thought was such a nice person is a cliche for a reason.
Another complaint was that Lorca was too kind to Burnham because she looked like his co-conspirator in the MU—the thing is, they even foreshadowed that and everyone missed it. Landry was an idiot, a racist, and an incompetent. It never made sense that she would be the security chief on a starship, and she died incredibly stupid. But it does make sense if Lorca mentored her because she looks just like his lieutenant in the MU, as established in “What’s Past is Prologue.” That’s Lorca’s fatal flaw, his attachment to people in one universe or another based on their counterpart, which led to Landry dying stupid by being put in a position she should never have been in, and Burnham surviving to help stop Lorca because Lorca thought she would be like his Burnham.
The plot didn’t always cohere properly, and they didn’t spend enough time on all of their plotlines, and the resolutions were a bit too pat, and some of the plot choices were seriously odd. On the other hand, we have a great set of characters, we have had some strong suspenseful situations, some excellent character arcs and character journeys, and powerful action. The special effects are, of course, great, and the overall look is distinctive and compelling, and there’s nary a bad performance in the bunch, as the cast, from the regulars to the guest stars, having ranged from very good to out-of-this-world (er, so to speak) great. Sonequa Martin-Green leads the ensemble spectacularly, her intensity and capacity for facial expressions serving her well and helping her cement Burnham’s rather unique place among Trek leads.
The elements are all there for a great show, they just need to get the story structure a little better in place.
Keith R.A. DeCandido was at a convention with Sonequa Martin-Green this past weekend and got to give her an autographed copy of his book The Klingon Art of War. She proceeded to totally nerd out over it and geeble about how she was going to bring it to the set. Keith is inordinately pleased with himself over this.
Agreed on all points, Krad.
For me, because Discovery has been mostly from the POV of one character and less an ensemble, the main problem has been Michael Burnham. Of course SMG does a fine job acting—no problems there—but the character is written as such a stiff Troubled Hero it’s hard for me to connect with her. So far, she’s been used as more of a symbol and plot device than a real human being.
And it’s not like a stiff, stoic character can’t be interesting. Star Trek has done it before. But they’ve made steps to establish their humanity—that is, their quirks—early in other series. In just the second aired episode of TOS, Spock is shown playing a Vulcan lute. In the middle of TNG’s first season, we see Picard dress up as Dixon Hill. And we see Data begin his fascination with Sherlock Holmes. Minor details, yes, but they establish these people as people.
So I hope in the second season Burnham ditches some of the Vulcan persona (Seriously, they’re jerks. You can do better.) and we see her loosen up. You know, take up baseball, collect antique weapons, play a saxophone, drink lots of coffee, obsess over chocolate, get a dog—anything.
Let Tilly be your guide to quirkiness. ;-)
@1 We do see her quoting Alice in Wonderland early on.
Well, I should say I agree with most of your points, Krad. I still think they dropped the ball with Lorca and the Voq-Tyler stuff. Secret villains… bleh. Enough already.
I mean, I was watching Wonder Woman for the first time the other night. Oh, a prominent British actor who seems friendly. I bet he’ll be the villain. 45 minutes later… YUP!
#2
Well that’s… something. Quoting a book isn’t quite a on the quirk level of lute or dressed up as a detective though, is it? Let’s give her a hobby, you know, besides delivering inspirational speeches. Comes off like a walking TED talk half the time.
It is very much a pity that they made this a prequel. As Krad says as a sequel most of the problems go away. The Sarek connection isn’t necessary. Harry Mudd wasn’t necessary and God knows the Klingon war wasn’t necessary. Why not a NEW and unfriendly species who sees the Federation as a convenient enemy for their political purposes? I mean they went with a whole new look so why call them Klingons at all?
The arc of the fist season was Burnham making a horrible mistake and working her way back to respect. Did the mistake have to be starting a war? Georgiou recommends Burnham for her own command and she loses her ship. She is to blame to the extent to being knocked down a few ranks and reassigned to Discovery a ship with a very different Captain and mission than she’s used to. It would have been nice to lose the whole MU story line IMO and done something that hasn’t been done before.
Thank you! A few episodes ago I made a comment that despite enjoying the series I felt empty; and I believe Krad’s season review encapsulates why this is for me. I loved the acting of Sonequa Martin-Green and, per your recommendation Krad, I’ve just received in the post today my copy of Tomorrow Never Dies based on the acting ability of Michelle Yeoh. I enjoyed most of the episodes but overall something was lacking.
I will be looking forward to season 2 next year and hope that they try something risky such as trying to be, as Krad said: “the forefront of being progressive in speculative fiction on television.”
Redd: We saw the start of that process, particularly in “Magic to Make the Sanest Man Go Mad,” which is the first time she loosens up a bit. One of the things I really enjoyed about the season, which I should’ve mentioned, was the developing friendship between Burnham and Tilly, which benefited each of them.
—Keith R.A. DeCandido
Krad, how would you compare this to TNG’s also uneven first season?
Now we can Monday morning quarterback this entire season, I think there was a better way they could’ve handled Tyler and Lorca. First, let there be just one secret identity character; two is too many. Second, let the audience in on who this person really is early in the story.
I’m thinking of the first season of Mad Men. In the third episode it’s made explicit that Don Draper hasn’t always had that name. He was once Dick Whitman, and through the rest of the season we learn how he became this other man. And through the process we learn who he is as a character.
Waiting until almost the end to reveal Lorca came across as cheap theatrics, reducing what could’ve been a great character into a jack-in-the-box. Mystery…mystery…POP goes the villain. And a cartoonish villain at that. Remember the tribble? It was Blofeld’s cat all along.
First seasons of pretty much every Trek series are notoriously uneven. I’m thrilled they’ll have a second one to find their groove.
The prequel idea wasn’t bad in and of itself. They could have made the series a prequel to TNG and the war could have been with the Cardassians. That alone would have solved several issues including the extensive use of holograms. We could have seen Burnham be mentored by an aging Sarek (solves the Spock’s unseen “sister” problem). The Spore Drive could have been an experimental system that was scrapped as being dangerous). The MU could have been used (possibly the fall of the Empire). The ship at the end of the season could have been the Stargazer. Set and costume design would have been far less of an issue.
If you want Harry Mudd in the future, you can have Harry Mudd in the future… He’s just the sort to buy a malfunctioning time machine and attempt to loot the future.
I too am curious where this falls in the ranking of 1st seasons of Trek. I say:
TOS
DS9
DSC
VOY
ENT
TNG
But I could be persuaded to swap DSC and VOY.
@12, well TNG already did that.
Actually, wouldn’t it have been fun if Professor Rasmussen (Matt Frewer) had turned out to be Harry Mudd who had done just that? (Although, would have needed a different actor.)
@BrianDoolan nah mate, I think you’ve got that order just right. For all it’s flaws Disco’s first season holds up better than the bottom half of your list (admittedly they all had longer seasons to fill, but still)
Philcon 2017 had a panel on DSC (Krad was at the con, but not on the panel) and there was a lot of ambivalence in the audience because only a few episodes had aired. If there’s a bookended panel at 2018 in November (prior to season 2), I’m going to draw up a series of charts to (a) remind people of all the names that weren’t clearly established or that people tend to forget in the moment (“Admiral… Vulcan guy… who vanished…”) and (b) help keep the agenda from bogging down (“Visual continuity, show of hands… Consensus, we didn’t like the choices. Characters: who liked A… B… C… Next topic…”).
By then, I’m hoping we get some more behind-the-scenes (or, more viewers have the time to find them) to elucidate some of the puzzling decisions. How much of the awkwardness was due to the change in show-runners? How many arc-threads did they commit to, and how many were abandoned? (E.g., black badges.)
We can enumerate the fan-theories that didn’t pan out. (E.g., Section 31, the dirty-tricks-group-that-monopolizes-mindshare, wasn’t involved.)
Annalee Newitz on Ars Technica used the term “prequelitis” to describe the motivation behind many of DSC’s self-inflicted wounds (Sarek, Harry Mudd, visual continuity, a retcon to the scale of the UFP-Klingon war).
I do have my issues with DSC being a prequel, but if it had been set in a later era, without Sarek, then we would’ve lost “Lethe,” which to my mind is the finest episode of the series so far, if not the finest Trek episode in the past 20 or so years. The whole has its issues, but that one part was breathtaking.
Also, I like how well the Klingon situation meshes with what I’ve done in the Enterprise novels. I showed (building on the precedent hinted at by Michael Martin in the Romulan War books) that the Empire retreated into itself to deal with the internal strife between ridged and smooth Klingons, and between rival Great Houses jockeying to exploit the situation for their own power. So they would cease to be an active adversary to the Federation for some decades and would have various clashing factions within to deal with. I didn’t envision their future going exactly the way DSC showed it, but it dovetails quite nicely, if we assume that the more hopeful signs I left the Empire with at the end of Live by the Code didn’t pan out in the long term.
As for Lorca, I think all the people who say “Aww, he was such a nicely nuanced and morally ambiguous character until the Mirror Universe twist” are fooling themselves. As Keith says, Lorca was always a clear bastard from the start. He broke regulations to hijack Burnham for his crew. He tortured a sentient life form. He abandoned Mudd to the Klingons. He abandoned Cornwell to the Klingons. Even when he gave an encouraging speech to someone, even when he seemed like he was being a nice or idealistic guy, there was always an undercurrent that he was manipulating them for his own ends. The warning signs were always there. But we resisted accepting the truth, because we wanted to believe he was a more nuanced and redeemable figure, that there was a better explanation for his seemingly awful behavior. So a self-evident rat-bastard was able to make us trick ourselves into rationalizing away the obvious evidence of his rat-bastardness. And that’s why we elected him President of the United States. Oh, wait, I lost track of who I was talking about. ;)
@5/princessroxana: “I mean they went with a whole new look so why call them Klingons at all?”
Said a whole bunch of fans in 1979.
“Raises hand.” I am not a fan of Star Trek (though i’ve seen several of the movies). But is this Nu-Trek, Classic Trek or a completely different universe altogether?
@CLB: was wondering if you were going to go there… Of course, the show made it explicit with the “Make the Empire great again” line. And you’re right about the signs. There was one conversation (I think with Stamets) that a viewer could view as motivational, but was also obviously manipulative. Some great acting from Jason Isaacs there. That’s why I’ve said a re-watch would help some viewers catch what they missed.
@krad: I’m with Redd and find I agree with most of what you said. I fought with myself (and others) to stay positive about this show, but ultimately was disappointed. There’s still good and potential in it, but it’s left me a bit tired of it as well. In retrospect, Starfleet putting the Emperor in charge of a genocidal mission was too much. It became the Darkest Timeline.
Just as earlier in the MU they made the stakes nearly infinite, with the risk of destroying all life in all universes, this show had trouble with scale. Despite the instantaneous travel, it often felt like it could’ve taken place in one star system. Then if we consider morally proportionate response, Starfleet goes from “My god, the Klingons killed 80,000 souls!” to “Let’s kill billions of them.”
It shows why the Federation is disliked and feared, just as the American empire is distrusted in some corners of our earth. Now, if that was intended… then the production was brilliant. I’m not so sure, though… This is not sophisticated political commentary. It’s more Flash Gordon/Ming the Merciless territory. Very pulpy at times. As an analysis of war, both B5 and rebooted BSG had more depth. Or DS9 for that matter. From conception to delivery, it seems they repeatedly painted themselves into a corner.
felix: it’s in the same universe as the other six TV series and the first ten movies.
—Keith R.A. DeCandido
@16, Roddenberry himself remodeled the Klingons in 1979. I learned to live with it. What’s DSC’s excuse?
It was clear Lorca was a Bad Guy. He’s played by Jason Isaacs for God’s sake. But why did he have to be an MU Bad Guy? He wouldn’t be Prime Universes’ first questionable captain by any means.
@20/roxana: Every new makeup artist has redesigned the Klingons. The TMP version by Fred Phillips had a single row of vertebrae extending over the centerline of a smooth, bald head to end in ridges on the nose. The TSFS version by the Burman Studios was massively different from that — each Klingon male now had a uniquely textured bony plate covering the whole forehead, with a smooth nose, and the Klingon female Valkris had a far more subtle forehead ridge. The Michael Westmore version from TNG through ENT was along the same lines as the Burman design, but with ridged noses like the TMP design, and after an abortive attempt at a more subtle Klingon female makeup in “Hide and Q,” Westmore abandoned sexual dimorphism and gave both males and females equally large head plates. The Richard Snell version in ST IV-VI kept the idea of individualized bony plates but made them subtler, less bulky, and more rounded, and bringing back the extremely small, almost nonexistent female ridges from the Burman design. Then there’s the Neville Page version from Into Darkness, a more elaborate prosthetic with wider, more angular head plates (whose ridges are pierced with jewelry), pointed ears, bright eyes, and (as a last-minute on-set decision) no hair. The Discovery design is also from Page and has a number of similarities to the Kelvin design, such as the hairlessness, the bright eyes, and the alien ear shapes and full-head nature of the prosthetic. But it gives the Klingons individualized forehead ridges much like the Burman and Westmore designs, and adds wider noses with doubled nostrils (evidently in keeping with the idea that Klingon organs are doubled for redundancy, as established in TNG).
No “excuse” is needed, because this is a work of creativity. These aliens are entirely imaginary, and their designs are artistic expressions. Each artist brings their own individual creativity to the art and creates their own variation on the theme, because that is how human creativity works. That’s why we have so many different designs for the Klingons, not to mention multiple designs for the Romulans, Andorians, Tellarites, etc., not to mention different designs for Starfleet technology and ships and uniforms. Designers gotta design.
It wasn’t that they revealed Lorca to be a villain that was the problem – it was that they revealed him to be a cartoon villain in the campy Mirror universe, undercutting the show’s somber approach to the Klingon-Federation war. That reveal also destroys the season – Burnham must suddenly rise up to save the Mirror universe from the genocidal Lorca, but then sets the equally genocidal Georgiou free in the Prime Universe. No, that Georgiou looks like Burnham’s dead mentor isn’t a good enough explanation, unless Burnham is intended to be an idiot. (And please, stop talking about the “richness” of Burnham’s shoddily constructed character and slapdash arc.) As for Martin-Green’s performance, it oscillates between dull stoicism and awkwardly melodramatic flourishes, though to be fair, most actors would struggle with the words she’s given to say. There are no shortcuts on the path to righteousness, but there surely are shortcuts in the writers’ room.
The season was uneven. And I agree with Keith that showing the first two episodes in flashback would have worked much better than showing them, then swapping to another ship for the rest of the season.
Characters: Burnham dropped her Vulcan upbringing pretty damned quickly – too quickly for me. To me, she’s just human. I like her as that, but the backstory with Sarek and Amanda really don’t work for me other than the brilliance of explaining why Sarek was so pissed with Spock when he bypassed the VSA to join Starfleet. BTW – side note – another Trek series that makes out Vulcans to mostly be dicks.
Saru – got growth and is mildly interesting. Very Starfleet. Hopefully the jealousy between Saru and Burnham is gone.
Tilly and Stamets. Both less annoying, thank God.
Georgiou. A real loss in the beginning. But the “90 lb woman kicking ass” type scene just bores the hell out of me and is way overused these days. In fact, fighting in general, be it hand-to-hand or “pew-pew” is just tedious.
Culber: Barely there (too bad!). As for the romance, we saw just snippets really. Someone once said that they were the greatest couple in Trek history and I was like, “huh?” There weren’t enough scenes of them. I still suspect that the green spore will be Culber and he will be returned to his body which will conveniently still be whole/in stasis.
Mudd: A delight.
Sarek/Amanda: Mixed. OK until the last episode where he all but grinned like a cheshire cat. Wish they could have got Ben Cross for Sarek instead. Amanda: an utter delight.
Tyler: God help me. Tedious in the extreme.
Lorca: I’m with the camp that says they missed the boat by turning him into a cartoon villain. Even if he had to be the villain, no way would he have been that stupid once he got home. He was able to fit into the P.U. (other than with Cornwell, who had been intimate with the P.U. version) and no way would he have been as STUPID as he was at the end of his life. He was one of the most interesting characters on the show until that last episode where he was ruined.
Cornwell: Typical Starfleet. I liked her though.
Utter stupidities: Saving a dead person with a piece of katra. Being able to reach across millions of miles due to the bond created with this. Spore drive. Burnham’s choice to bring Georgiou back to the P.U. Releasing Mudd who will surely be out for blood next time. Oh how cute, send him to STELLA instead. Tee hee, snicker…retch…
Discovery was a show that I liked to watch, and it kept my attention throughout the show, but when it was done and I thought about it, all too often it left me empty.
We’ll see about S2. Part of it depends upon which captain is chosen. And dear God, don’t bring Spock into the mix, even for an ep or two. Please?
P.S. Surely Burnham’s bad luck has to change. I get that she sometimes makes bad decisions, but she has horrid luck. Parents die, she is attacked on Vulcan, Vulcans won’t let her in to the VSA, she falls in love with a human/Klingon hybrid, etc. She can’t buy a break.
22. — Well put. I agree. Lorca always came across as someone who couldn’t be trusted. It seemed inevitable he and Burnham would square off in the end and another mutiny situation might take place. In that, I hoped they were going in an early Gul Dukat direction with him. Instead we got later cartoonishly evil Gul Dukat. And it’s almost as disappointing now as it was then. Thankfully though, we didn’t have to sit through several seasons of buildup.
Discovery can have bad guys. That’s fine. Well written bad guys without on-the-nose commentary, who don’t reveal themselves in the dark Captain Proton universe, in gotcha writing that borders on trolling the audience, are even better. Make the characters on screen the suckers, not the audience. Let us in on the joke at least.
@23/tbonz: “Utter stupidities: Saving a dead person with a piece of katra.”
I took that as figurative. The use of a mind meld to heal someone on the brink of death is one I used myself in Rise of the Federation: Uncertain Logic, though I explained it in more scientific terms there, likening it to the medications used to reduce ischemic damage in stroke victims, and suggesting that the melder may have guided the injured person in rerouting some brain function around damaged areas. So regardless of how the act was explained, the act itself seems possible to me.
“Being able to reach across millions of miles due to the bond created with this.”
Trip and T’Pol’s mating bond in ENT season 4 gave them the same ability. “Amok Time” implied that Spock and T’Pring could sense each other across light years through their bond, “never and always touching and touched,” though in that case it didn’t extend to full-on communication. There’s also Spock sensing of the Intrepid crew’s deaths in “The Immunity Syndrome.”
“Burnham’s choice to bring Georgiou back to the P.U.”
Unwise, yes, but an understandable impulse. She felt guilty about getting her Burnham killed, so she couldn’t bring herself to leave another to die in front of her.
“What I question is the need to set the show ten years prior to TOS. Why open the can of worms? Why not just do what The Next Generation did so well thirty years ago and jump the timeline forward?”
Precisely. THIS is one of my biggest things that I’m like… why>???
CLB, yes thank you we have established that the creative team has the right to ignore everything that went before. And I have the right to dislike the new look and not watch.
@26/defiant: Bryan Fuller talked about how he intended the storyline to show some event that was hinted at in TOS, that the reason for the setting would become evident once we saw that backstory established. Unless he was talking about the revelations regarding Sarek and Spock in “Lethe,” I suspect that may be something that fell by the wayside when he left the show.
I got through the first few episodes of this before realizing it wasn’t for me. I actually cancelled my CBS subscription after waiting for this and being disappointed (I’d had one for years before this). After reading most of the synopses along the way and now the season recap I am confident I haven’t missed anything I’d like to have seen. Thank you, krad.
Almost all the issues I had with the show would go away if only it had been set post-Nemesis. Everything from the tech to the uniforms to even the war with the Klingons would have made much more sense. Otherwise, I thought it was a decent first season. Honestly, no Trek had a great first season. It took them all a couple to find their voice, so I’ll be back next year.
Yes, you do. But I’d argue that that dislike is arbitrary, uninformed, and inconsistent — because in framing that dislike entirely on the basis of information you’ve received from people who mostly do like the show, you’re placing trust in a source that you clearly regard as untrustworthy. You are presuming that we’ve reported accurately on what we’ve seen, but you simultaneously do not trust us to analyze what we’ve seen — because our conclusions, based on first-hand viewing, are at odds with the ones you’ve formed based entirely on second-hand summations and recaps.
Spock and Sarek would have a word for that….
I reiterate my earlier challenge. The whole series is up and available; spend $7 (or $10; the extra $3 will save you two or three hours’ worth of ads over the course of the full season’s episodes, and watching ad-free will thus both get you through more quickly and give you a better viewing experience) and take a week or two to view the whole season at one go. That’s the cost of ONE feature-length movie in the theater, for more than twice that much actual screen time. Then come back and give us your informed opinion — for good or ill — and nobody will be able to complain that that opinion isn’t worthy of respect. (We may still disagree, but it will be a more equitable disagreement.)
John C. Bunnell @31 – What on earth makes you say this?
You’re claiming that princessroxanna has not watched the show and is basing opinions solely on what others are saying, but earlier comments make it clear that she has watched the show – at least as much as she could stand – and is basing opinions on personal observation.
Or if you have Amazon Prime they have a 3 day trial and you can watch the whole show for free as I did. I must admit having just gone back and read all these reviews a lot of the issues from the reviews are greatly decreased by watching the entire season in 3 days. It was still flawed and I basically agree they would have been better served with it as a sequel, but as South Park says must eat the ‘member berries! I think the most discordant thing about the whole series to me was all the tie-ins to previous Treks since all but Enterprise dolled out references to previous Treks about once a season except for the occasional cameo scene/show.
My main take way was I enjoyed it and it was nice to have a Trek TV show again. I’m interested enough to watch the next season and happy it will be (hopefully) war free.
#32: Actually, she hasn’t — or at least had not, and acknowledged that she hadn’t — as of the exchange she and I had in the episode discussion post for “Vaulting Ambition” in which I made the initial challenge referred to here. (See particularly #80, #145, #147, and #160 in that comment section.)
Mind you, I agree that many of her posts do give the impression that she’s seen the episodes under discussion…which is one of the main reasons I wish she wouldn’t state her conclusions quite so firmly.
I think there’s no question they placed the setting in the 23rd century in hopes of reconciling both Nu and Classic Trek, potentially bringing the fans of both to the show: it predates and therefore belongs to the history of both sides of the split. I don’t hold out much hope of us ever seeing the Star Trek universe after “Nemesis” on film or television; and they definitely don’t want to show us the Star Trek universe long after the new films, when that would be too constraining on where those are headed. All they could do that made all stakeholders happy (if not all fans) was go back.
@30/dja17: “Almost all the issues I had with the show would go away if only it had been set post-Nemesis. Everything from the tech to the uniforms to even the war with the Klingons would have made much more sense.”
None of those bother me much. The tech: TOS was just the best approximation of future tech they could manage in the ’60s, and they never wanted us to believe that future tech literally looked like it was made with 1960s hardware. So a more modern production offering a closer approximation of future technology is exactly what Gene Roddenberry would have wanted. I do think they went overboard with the cliched Star Wars-style midair holograms, but I just chalk it up to artistic license. As for story-relevant tech like the spore drive, Trek has a long history of introducing revolutionary propulsion systems and other technologies and then abandoning them. Where was transwarp drive in the TNG era? How come Starfleet never studied and replicated the interstellar transporters used by the Triskelions or the Kalandans, or the advanced android tech they worked on with Sargon and Thalassa? And ENT was guilty of this before DSC was — how come the near-instantaneous subspace vortex drive the Xindi used was never replicated by Starfleet, even with a century to study the principles?
The uniforms: How many times have Starfleet uniforms been redesigned and replaced over the decades? It’s kind of ridiculous how frequent it is. And the DSC uniforms are a lot better-looking than those drab turtlenecks from the pilots.
Plus, I don’t really see this Klingon war arc working in a post-NEM context. After all, it depended on the two sides not knowing each other very well, not understanding each other’s psychology and culture. It started because T’Kuvma believed the Federation was an intolerant, culturally imperialist power that wished to absorb and assimilate the Klingons, and generations of alliance and mutual tolerance in the 24th century would prove that wasn’t true. Granted, maybe it could’ve worked post-TUC, with an Empire weakened by the Praxis disaster and dependent on Federation help for rebuilding, with T’Kuvma being a nativist who felt that the Federation had gained too much power over the Klingons and needed to be driven out. But I’m not sure the Tyler arc would’ve worked there, because the Federation post-“Trouble With Tribbles” would be familiar with the existence of disguised Klingon agents and more aware of how to identify them.
@35/cecrow: “I think there’s no question they placed the setting in the 23rd century in hopes of reconciling both Nu and Classic Trek, potentially bringing the fans of both to the show: it predates and therefore belongs to the history of both sides of the split.”
No, not at all. The split happened in 2233, when Nero arrived in the opening scene of the 2009 movie. The Kelvin Timeline was born on the same day James T. Kirk was born, at least in Kelvin (since the attack might’ve caused him to be born a bit prematurely compared to Prime). Discovery is set in Prime 2256-7, contemporary with the time gap in the ’09 film between Kirk joining the Academy (2255) and the last two acts of the film (2258). Although Prime Kirk would be already graduated and serving on the Farragut at the time of DSC.
Also, of course, the Kelvin Enterprise was not launched until 2258, during the film, and obviously the Enterprise is already in service under Pike’s command as of DSC (which is, after all, set 2-3 years after “The Cage”).
@32 Actually I haven’t seen any of DSC, it’s less the money then the nuisance. That I sound like I have is an a compliment to Krad’s reviews. I have also seen images apart from the reviews so yeah, I know how it looks.
I would ignore the visual discontinuity if the story made it worth my while. It didn’t. This has been one crazy season stuffed with wild incident and ridiculously high stakes. A devastating war nobody’s ever referenced. A magical organic based drive that again will sink without a trace. And of course the familiar old MU. All kinds of unnecessary bells and whistles like Michael being Spock’s big sister, which actually isn’t a continuity issue given Spock’s habitual secrecy about his family. And Harry Mudd as violent and treasonous rather than a mere con man.
The story was supposed be about Michael, her fall and redemption. Did we need all this grimdark to tell that story?
23. tbonz “BTW – side note – another Trek series that makes out Vulcans to mostly be dicks.”
I would argue that pretty much every incarnation of Trek has done this. This includes Spock and Tuvok. Lets face it, Vulcans are kinda dicks.
@38/Jason: Right. Vulcans have frequently been portrayed as condescending, arrogant, manipulative, prejudiced, and hypocritical in their pretense of pure logic. T’Pring was willing to manipulate Spock into killing his best friend. The Vulcans as a whole were willing to keep an antiquated custom involving a fight to the death. Sarek, a diplomat, hurled casually racist remarks at his Tellarite counterpart. TNG rarely dealt with Vulcans, but one of the most prominent Vulcans it featured, T’Paal from “Gambit,” was a xenophobic, isolationist terrorist who wanted to find an ancient Vulcan telepathic weapon that she could use to “purge” Vulcan of alien influence. DS9 gave us Captain Solok and his decades-long attempt to “prove” scientifically that humans were an inferior species.
Fans idealize the Vulcans because they want to see only the good side. But the bad side has always been present too. We went through this exact same thing with Enterprise, when some fans mistook its portrayal of the Vulcans for a “change.”
What exactly is the good side of Vulcans? Personally I find their complex and ancient culture fascinating but it’s always been painfully clear they don’t live up to their supposed ideals.
39. ChristopherLBennett “Sarek, a diplomat, hurled casually racist remarks at his Tellarite counterpart.”
Is it possible, knowing what we know of Tellarites, that Sarek was just playing the game that Tellarites play in their interactions with everyone? Tellarites get genuinely insulted if you don’t casually insult them after all.
@41/Jason: Yeah, that’s how we think of the Tellarites now, but only because later writers took Sarek’s line “Tellarites do not argue for reasons; they simply argue,” assumed it was literally true, and retconned it into a statement of cultural difference. As written at the time, without that subsequent contextualization, it was just race-baiting. The issue isn’t what’s “really” true in-universe, it’s how the writers of the various series have chosen to portray the Vulcan species. And going back to TOS, writers have never hesitated to portray Vulcans as jerks.
@40/Roxana: Just like the Klingons, they used to be a savage and violent species. Unlike the Klingons, they abdicated violence and turned to logic and peace instead. Isn’t that a good thing?
More or less, but it seems to have given them an intractable superiority complex. And they’re not really logical, just fantastic rationalizers.
The best reason to have set this series after Nemesis is creative freedom, pure and simple. There’s not much of anything after that time. Because as soon as it’s set as a prequel, or interquel, we begin asking questions. How does this connect with that? Why does this look different? Where is this character/ship/species? When we should have our full attention on the stories, the morality plays in space TOS set out to make.
After 50 years it’s gotten a bit crowded. Ideally, if Star Trek were to “boldly go,” they would set this in the far future in another galaxy or some other dimension. Give it a fresh start without completely discarding what came before it, just as TNG did in 1987. Their premiere, “Encounter at Farpoint,” was that fresh start. Their followup episode, “The Naked Now,” a remake of “The Naked Time,” was not. Oh boy was it not.
So, Discovery.
It’s the Enterprise…NCC-17…
That’s nice. Now go around them.
“Sorry, can’t help you! Try 911.”
Overall I think Discovery is alright. It started out uneven and toward the end started to look like it functioned within Star Trek.
My only problem is the Klingons, I don’t care if the new designers wanted to do whatever. Give Klingons razor hair and suction cup hands and giant flippers for feet, but just don’t make them boring. DSC Klingons aren’t boring save L’Rell who’s now holding the Empire hostage. These aren’t exciting Klingons, and the makeup plus language makes them sound like they’re talking with their tongues shoved into their throats underwater. Otherwise, y’know, whatever. If you’re giving us an antagonist don’t make them boring.
I’d complain about paying for all access, but since I paid for all access this season, I’d just look stupid now.
Otherwise, the show’s alright. Season was no worse than TNG’s first season.
It’s just me, but while I would have preferred something set after VOY (or my ideal, the time period jumping anthology), I have no problems at all with a prequel.
Nor do I have a problem with starting with the two-parter they did. It worked wondefully for me.
No problems either with the Klingons speaking their own language, their scenes are not that many nor that long. That, however, is a pity, because we were promised more Klingon culture exploration.
Culber’s death IS my one of my two main problems with the show, though. The other is the final episode, and the rushed end of the war, and the un-Star Trek-ey cruel plan to end it. It doesn’t ruin the show for me, but it does end the season with a failed episode, when it could have been very much salvaged. It made the season go from an 8.5 to a 7.
Saru, Stamets, and Tilly were gold, and Tyler/Voq sold it wonderfully too, with L’Rell and Lorca being great too. I am lukewarm towards Burnham as a character, but to me she’s just there to provide a figurehead, I’m happy if we get episodes and storylines devoted to the rest of the characters. Martin-Green does a good job as her, though.
This is still a much stronger first season than TNG’s or VOY’s.
@krad: Cool that you got to meet SMG (Sonequa Martin-Green, not Sarah Michelle Gellar :>) and give her your book… and have her geek out about it. Now get a copy to Mary Chieffo.
@15 – Phillip: They’re not going to talk about the behind the scenes producer shift/swap chaos. That’s something for a documentary 20-25 years down the line, ala TNG’s “Chaos On The Bridge”.
@31 – John: Thank you. You’re either a much more patient man than I am, or a slightly more impatient one. :) Alas, your effort is lost, she’s already decided she hates the show, and will subject us to her comments in every thread about it.
@41/42: There’s also a difference between “arguing” and “insulting”.
47. MaGnUs “There’s also a difference between “arguing” and “insulting”.”
While I agree wholeheartedly with this statement, insulting those you are arguing with is most definitely a part of the game. I, coincidentally, just watched the Enterprise 3-parter “Babel One, United, The Aenar” yesterday and the Tellarite ambassador and Archer were most definitely insulting each other in their arguments. However, like CLB said, this was done after the TOS episode in question.
This is still a much stronger first season than TNG’s or VOY’s.
Forgive me but that is a really low bar. ;-)
Yes, I was talking only about the original episode. What Sarek says about his dealings with the Tellarites and what how he actually deals with them don’t match.
Then again, TOS is a show were McCoy hurled racial insults at Spock in almost every episode. Even within the context of the era the show was made, I still can’t understand how they felt that was acceptable for a show like TOS. Imagine McCoy flinging remarks about Scottish or Asian stereotypes at Scotty or Sulu!
50. MaGnUs Right! I could see McCoy giving Spock crap about it good-naturedly (as friends are wont to do), but he was a real prick about it in some episodes.
And they weren’t actually friends in the show, just colleagues… plus, even if they were the closest of friends, you don’t do that in public, in front of fellow officers, and most importantly, junior officers.
@52. Magnus: Just finished watching season 2 of The Grand Tour. The Top Gear guys call each other colleagues, but they are clearly very loyal to each other. They sometimes infuriate each other, especially when a practical joke goes wrong; they call each other names constantly, but underneath there’s affection. Don’t know if this transfers over to how well our Three Musketeers from Star Trek relate to each other, but there are similarities. (McCoy is admittedly an ass at times.)
It’s an entirely different work context.
I like first season TNG.
@44/Roxana: They are really logical when it comes to looking at the world and analysing what they see. This was established early on when Spock could clearly see where Gary Mitchell was headed.
@52/MaGnUs: Spock invited McCoy to his wedding, explaining that “the male is accompanied by his closest friends.” So Spock considered McCoy a friend. I’m not sure how McCoy considered Spock.
I think Spock and McCoy were ‘frenemies’ in TOS, but later friends in the movies.
As for the casual racism, Spock was almost constantly saying derogatory things about humans and McCoy. He gave as good as he got from the doctor. For a lopsided version of this dynamic, look to Pulaski and Data, who was too childlike to absorb such punishment. It simply made Pulaski look like a bully.
@55 – Jana: I like the characters that actually have some personality in S1, and a handful of episodes (starting with the pilot), but the season is not the best first season in Trek history, or TV history. YMMV, of course.
And regarding that line you quote, that is one line in a single episode. I don’t really get the feeling in all of TOS TV that Spock and McCoy are actually friends.
@56 – Redd: And we’re back to “Vulcans are jerks”, which is something I agree with. As for Pulasky, that’s true too, and I’ve always said. Yet, my point was about TOS and McCoy.
Vulcans are jerks, indeed. And so is McCoy. He and Spock have more in common than they’d like to admit. Many a friendship has started in this way.
Heck, not just friendships. I’ve witnessed quite a few marriages that operate in that way, haha.
@56/Redd: The difference is that Spock is the only Vulcan on a ship full of humans.
Pulaski changed her behaviour towards Data pretty fast. In “Pen Pals”, she says that her emotions are involved when “Data’s friend is going to die”. I think they would have become friends if she had been allowed to stay.
@57/MaGnUs: No, it isn’t the best first season. But I like it for its tentative steps and its attempts at portraying different alien societies (although some of those were awful) and taking on issues like environmental problems and the death penalty.
My impression is that Spock really likes McCoy, or at least values him. That’s why he puts up with him.
I like Pulaski precisely because she was abrasive. Possibly why I like McCoy too, though the blue eyes and southern accent had something to do with the latter case.
Yep, pretty much. I’ve had some issues with DSC’s first season, and have to agree almost completely with Krad’s take. (BTW thanks for all the Trek content Krad, I’ve been re-watching all the series along with your articles and it’s been a blast). Particularly I agree with the first point. I’m completely unconcerned about this or that prequel related inconstancy, as someone pointed out ‘The Cage’s’ fugly turtleneck uniforms are cannon and a few years before DSC in the timeline. And heck, maybe they would realize that hologram communication is eye-straining and pointless in the space of a decade and discard the tech. Nor care I how Klingons look this time round, really in any Trek series/era we see a tiny handful of Klingon individuals out of billions of course they might look different. Disbelief suspended. There was just no reason for this series to be set in the 23rd century ‘a decade before TOS. Still watch it, still like it, but it easily could have eschewed the callbacks (as much as I do like Harry Mudd, the MU, Sarek and all) and been set after Nemesis, in another galaxy, dimension etc… All in all though it’s been a legit first season of a Trek series. I look forward to seeing what they do in season 2.
@54. Magnus: Ha! of course not. Point being that people who present as colleagues often have deeper friendships underneath.
@60 – JanaJansen: But my point is that it doesn’t matter how much Spock appreciates or tolerates McCoy. No Starfleet officer, no sane person in the 23rd century should be hurling racial insults at another in public, much less in front of junior officers and even (I’m pretty sure) alien representatives.
The 23rd century is clearly not as sensitive as the 21st or 24th.
I will say that the MU call back was better than the Naked Now.
66. princessroxana That’s a pretty low bar :)
@67, Jason, Just inches above the ground!
@66-68: But without “The Naked Now”, we wouldn’t know that Data is fully functional.
Speaking of inches… Wa-hey!
I thought it was a complete disaster. All the characters are either unlikable jerks, furniture, or a Mary Sue (Burnham). The whole show is structured so that liking Burhnam is essential to liking the show; but they didn’t do anything to make Burnham likable, and instead just told the audience how AWESUM she supposedly is while having her act alternately Generic Protagonist and raging racist.
Then they fridged a gay guy, wasted every bit of potential they had, and then to cap it all off had a rape victim ride off into the sunset with his rapist because the idiots in charge of this show don’t understand the basics of how not to be incredibly creepy.
So we had flat or at best one-note characters, with character always taking a backseat to plot. That’s not necessarily a bad thing; Star Wars is pretty heavily plot-driven, after all, but it’s still great–the problem here is that the plot is a hackwork mess of incompetent trope libraries stitched together by a bunch of idiots. So the sacrifice just isn’t worth it.
You know, I’ve given this show every chance I’m willing to give, but not even Enterprise was this bad. Enterprise’s 5th episode (“Unexpected”) was literally a 45-minute rape joke and the main cast were almost all annoying one-note jerks rooted in offensive stereotypes of Southern people, Asian women, and others, but you know what? Not even Enterprise portrayed a rapist as a feminist heroine like Discovery did with L’Rell the Klinguruk-Hai. Not even Enterprise had characters completely lacking personality like Lieutenant Loveinterest–even Mayweather, who had only one character trait until season 4, had one character trait, whereas Lieutenant Loveinterest the transformed Klingon is so generic I can’t even remember his name, and the bridge crew literally could be replaced by furniture and have there be no significant change to the show.
To hell with this show. I’ve given it every possible chance and I’m done. It may have been revolutionary in the 1960s, but Discovery seems to have failed to realize that it’s not 1967 anymore and certain things that were OK in the TOS era are considered extremely creepy now. It may have been borderline acceptable in the TNG-DS9-VOY era (back when 13 American states still criminalized homosexual sex, BTW), but it’s been two decades. If you’re going to market a Trek show as the New, Super-Progressive Trek in 2017, you need to update your story.
@71/ground_petrel: I don’t quite get your last paragraph. Did TOS/TNG/DS9/VOY do any of the things you criticise in your comment? If so, which ones?
I have a problem with how they wrapped up the Kingon war bit. One “hydro bomb” and all their problems are over? Seeing the Klingon home planet was cool and I actually could have spent more time there. Plus the presence of humans and other species shows a different, less xenophobic side of the Klingons. None of that got explored, nor did we get a final showdown between Burnham and the Klingon warriors. I’m all for using Federation smarts to avoid more bloodshed, but it was all a bit too neatly packaged IMO.
I thought the first season was decent. As others have said, not having the worst first season of a new Trek is a pretty low bar, but considering how uneven a lot of first season Trek has been I’m more than willing to buy in for season 2. (Unlike Enterprise, which I dropped early despite my fondness for Quantum Leap, and only got back to as an adult.)
The changes that would have been required to make it not be a prequel would have almost uniformly been improvements. The Sarek/Spock thing was cool, but I hated Rainn Wilson’s Mudd. Disguised Voq might have been a problem because of Trouble With Tribbles, but DS9 has people going undercover as other species without detection, so they could have just written in that techniques for disguise had advanced faster than detection.
I don’t know how much the franchise cares about their ties with Star Trek Online (the official Trek novel writers in here might know), but I wonder if they just didn’t want to be bothered with including or overriding the game’s post-Nemesis timeline.
I’m pretty sure they don’t care about STO when the time comes for a show post Nemesis. Like the Pocket Books novelverse, STO is a separate continuity of the franchise.
@75/soursavior: As MaGnUs points out, Star Trek Online is just one of several mutually inconsistent post-Nemesis continuities in the tie-ins, along with the Pocket novel continuity and a few IDW comics storyline like Hive. There’s also the new Modiphius Star Trek Adventures tabletop role-playing game — which, full disclosure, I’m writing some adventure campaigns for. It’s currently sticking to a time frame around 2371, circa Generations, the early contacts with the Dominion in DS9, and the start of Voyager, but like all other tie-in continuities, it’s free to do its own independent thing as long as it stays consistent with onscreen canon. But onscreen canon has no obligation to stay consistent with any single one of its various tie-in continuities; how would it choose?
More often with things like this, the canon is able to draw on bits and pieces from its various tie-ins if its creators so desire, irrespective of continuity — like how Marvel Comics drew the character of X-23/Laura Kinney from the X-Men Evolution animated series and the character of Phil Coulson from the Marvel Cinematic Universe, or the way ’40s Superman comic books adopted the characters of Jimmy Olsen, Perry White, and Inspector Henderson from the radio series and the name Daily Planet from the daily newspaper comic strip. So if the creators of canon Trek wanted to, they could borrow a character from the novels and an alien species from the game, or whatever, but they’d create their own versions of those individual elements without bringing the rest of their continuities along with them. But that’s not really something the creators of canonical Trek have ever been in the habit of doing. The one time I can think of is when they built an episode around the Klingon Day of Honor, a concept created by Pocket editor John Ordover as a unifying theme for a novel crossover. There’s also the TNG episode “Where No One Has Gone Before,” loosely based on Diane Duane’s TOS novel The Wounded Sky, but that was something Duane and her co-writer Michael Reaves chose to submit to the show rather than something the show’s staff sought out, and the staff rewrote it so massively that it had only a vague resemblance to the novel.
Trek also brought the names of Kirk’s parents, as well as the first names of Sulu and Uhura, from the tie-in fiction.
—Keith R.A. DeCandido
@77 thanks for weighing in with all those specifics. I’m glad to know that they’re not tied to the events of STO. I played and enjoyed the game for a while, but many of its narrative choices seem driven by the gameplay structure, which wouldn’t make for great TV.
Chris: Nice, looking forward to the adventures you’re writing for Modiphius.
@75. soursavior: Star Trek Online draws on the entirety of Trek lore, but don’t think anything they incorporate is considered canon. At least for purposes of the TV shows.
Edit: nevermind. Wrote my comment without refreshing page.
@78/krad: Of course, how could I forget the character names? There’s also the weird case of a TNG episode namedropping a planet called Endicor, which was a name Peter David used for a planet namedropped in a DC Trek comic, but there’s no evident connection and it might’ve just been a coincidence.
@81/Sunspear: Canon, by definition, is the original work as distinct from its tie-ins, adaptations, and fanfiction. There are infrequent cases — somewhat more frequent in recent years — where the creators of a canon exert direct enough control over their tie-ins that those can be considered canonical as well, but it’s the exception, not the rule, and it’s never something Star Trek has gone in for. Star Trek Online is just one more tie-in like all the others.
But asking whether something in a tie-in is “canon for the purposes of the shows” is a meaningless question. Canon is not some external rule that is imposed on the creators of the shows and that they’re required to follow. “Canon” is just a nickname for those creators’ work, as opposed to other creators’ adaptations and imitations of it. And since the tie-ins follow their lead instead of the other way around, they can use anything or ignore anything from the tie-ins, period.
@CLB: Wasn’t asking, hehe, was stating. Yes of course, they have no obligation to follow ancillary works.
But a tighter definition of canon is: has it appeared on screen. This may become an issue if a show post DS9 or Nemesis gets made. How much of the tie-ins will they absorb or will they go the way of Star Wars Expanded Universe, chucking it all because the continuity is too complex and constraining.
@72: ENT portrayed sexual assault (female on male) as comedy. DS9 portrayed the denizens of the evil Mirror Universe as basically all creepy bisexuals with strange sexual tastes. TNG pulled the same bullcrap as Avengers #200 did, with Troi being impregnated by an alien without her consent (but that was season 2, which sucked).
Ds9 also did better than Discovery, though; the cast was more diverse, the explicit-allegory-for-homophobia episode ended with both pansexual genderfluid characters who at the time were presenting as pansexual women surviving (the one broke off the relationship IIRC so they wouldn’t suffer legal repercussions from the villainous Trill government) and had gloriously unsubtle open support of the WLW relationship from the main cast. Oh, and the protagonist was a black guy, among whose 3-4 defining character traits was his status as a good father figure who didn’t always succeed but always tried his best and wanted the best for his son and was a kind, loving, good dad in every way.
Voyager had Harry Kim get shamed for having sex once and get seduced by evil sirens and Tom Paris was sort of taken over by a sentient shuttle and a bunch of other weird stuff, but the only time they got really squicky was in the episode Blood Fever, where a super-strong Vulcan man attempts to beat a woman into unconsciousness so he can screw her comatose form while three grown, armed men watch and smugly do nothing (well, Paris is being held back by the others but it’s still disgusting). Even that was nowhere near as bad as the nonsense Enterprise and Discovery pulled, though.
TOS, being a ’60s production, has a lot of Gene Roddenberry’s weird sexism on display, from the patronizing attitudes the male characters sometimes take (though it’s somewhat inconsistent, in some episodes it’s played more nuanced and in others it’s really uncomfortable) to the skimpy outfits that were considered “liberating” by some in the ’60s; it’s from 50 years ago and thus has very different standards for what’s OK. Keep in mind that back then the actors got death threats for Kirk kissing Uhura (a black woman played by a black actress) on primetime TV. Even so, there’s an episode that has a really uncomfortable sexual assault scene of a female antagonist who’s portrayed as sexually manipulative, which just feels wrong on some level.
The main problem is that it isn’t the 1960s (where forcefully kissing a woman was considered a sign of virility and a go-getter attitude rather than being astoundingly dickish and sexual assault), or the 1990s (when making the evil Mirror Universe the place where bisexuality is the norm wasn’t considered to have really nasty implications) anymore. You know what? I want to see the Prime Universe being the place of nice, happy LGBT people of all ethnicities just hanging out being nice to each other, and the Mirror Universe is the one where everybody is straight as an arrow (potentially as a policy of the totalitarian Nazi-esque Terran Empire regime, even, which is shown to be extremely misogynistic in TOS and Enterprise*), just to shake things up.
*Enterprise’s mirror-universe episode, because it was season 4 and they finally replaced that idiot Berman and the burned-out Braga with a guy called Manny Coto who actually could find his behind with both hands, had the really creative and enjoyable twist of having the female Hoshi Sato successfully betray the various male leads jockeying for command and take over the entire Terran empire. It helped that the actress, Linda Park, was clearly having a ball playing Empress Sato.
@83/Sunspear: As I already said, Star Trek tie-ins have never had a single overarching continuity like the SW Expanded Universe, so it’s a completely invalid analogy. Most (but not all) of the Trek novels have one continuity, the MMORPG has another, the tabletop game has another, the comics have several others, etc. They all have to be consistent with canon, but canon couldn’t be consistent with more than one of them, so it doesn’t even try. (How could you fairly decide which one to canonize?)
@CLB: This article would challenge the “single overarching continuity” of the SWEU (I’d guess there are others):
Building a messy SWEU
“the Expanded Universe had grown organically over almost two decades; there were entries reviled by readers, numerous dead ends, and stories that were at times contradictory or difficult to reconcile…”
Sound familiar?
@86/Sunspear: Star Trek is not Star Wars. They’ve always been very different. So what Star Wars did or didn’t do with its tie-ins is absolutely irrelevant to a discussion of Star Trek tie-ins. That’s my point.
Historically, Star Trek tie-ins have never been big on continuity. Each licensee did its own completely separate thing. And while each individual comics licensee tended to have continuity within its own ongoing series, most Trek novels published in the 20th century made no attempt at continuity with each other, except for sequels from the same author. The Pocket novels gradually developed a loose, optional continuity in the ’80s, but this was shut down when TNG came along and tie-ins were required for a while to have no continuity at all. (The DC comics at the time were able to continue telling ongoing stories, but they weren’t allowed to have original continuing characters or long-running storylines due to the rather draconian policies of the guy then in charge of approving the tie-ins.) Eventually, the Pocket novels were able to start doing interconnected or ongoing book series in the ’90s, but it wasn’t until the 2000s that a systematic continuity began to emerge among the majority of the novels, with even some of the comics occasionally tying into it. But even then, there were other novels that remained separate from that continuity, such as the “Shatnerverse” series and the 45th-anniversary Crucible trilogy. And most of the comics continued to do their own independent things, as did the various games.
@71/GP “then to cap it all off had a rape victim ride off into the sunset with his rapist”
Is no one going to point out how blatantly untrue this is?
L’Rell didn’t rape Tyler, because we never met Tyler. He died at the BotBS.
Our “Tyler” was Voq the whole time. Voq and L’Rell were seemingly lovers, and Voq’s transformation was entered into 100% willingly by Voq.
So where is the alleged rape? We were LED to believe there was rape, when we thought “Tyler” was actually the guy from the BotBS; however, he was not Tyler. He was Voq!
The only ambiguity here is the flashback scenes portrayed “Tyler”/Voq having sex, but we don’t know whether it was really TyVoq remembering sex had as Voq or whether L’Rell continued to have sex with him after the transformation. That would be more problematic, given he had been transformed to think he was Tyler. We simply do not have enough information to assume the latter over the former. Given Voq agreed to the transformation (to “give up everything”), he was presumably told that he might suffer some psychological confusion, and he consented anyway.
Given the timeline (TyVoq escapes with Lorca mere weeks after L’Rell/Voq leave the BotBS wreckage), the whole notion that “Tyler” was a sex slave for six (seven?) months was obviously untrue. It was either a deliberate cover to make “Tyler” seem more authentic or a symptom of the transformation confusing his memories.
I am somewhat disappointed that the interesting male victim of sexual assault narrative was a misunderstanding/red herring, but to imply that the writers let a “rapist” off the hook and that her “victim” went with her is a 100% dead wrong reading of the show.
On that note:
I don’t know whether misunderstandings like this one (there have been many from postings on various Trek boards – see the supposed switching of the Stametses, for example) are the fault of the writers for not making things clearer or the fault of viewers who do not take the time to properly follow the plotting. I have heard others complain that everything is too telegraphed and overexplained. So, apparently the DSC writers are simultaneously the worse and best at making everything obvious and clear.
@88/WTBA: In the episode where Tyler remembered that he was Voq, we saw some of the same flashback footage of his transformation, but we saw him looking in a reflective surface and seeing Voq’s face staring back at him, even though he saw himself as Tyler. So the fact that he appeared as Tyler in the flashbacks was symbolic, and a deliberate act of concealment on the show’s part. The memories we saw were actually things that happened to Voq, but because Voq had been programmed to think of himself as Tyler, he saw himself as Tyler in those memories.
So you’re right — those flashbacks were actually of Voq and L’Rell having consensual sex.
Didn’t this site and a few others publish think pieces about male rape when the first Tyler flashback was shown? And it was consensual all along. Yeah… not sure what to make of that now. This show comes off weird in that regard.
And probably another good reason the seasons should be released all at once.
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@84/ground_petrel: Oh, that. I had been wondering if you considered previous Trek shows to have flat characters or to be heavily plot-driven or something along those lines. Which didn’t quite fit what you had written before.
“[…] to the skimpy outfits that were considered “liberating” by some in the ’60s […]”.
They still are, in other parts of the world. Patriarchal demands on women’s clothing take many forms, and so does women’s resistance to said demands. None of us know how women would decide to dress in a truly free and equal society – all differently, probably.
“The main problem is that it isn’t the 1960s (where forcefully kissing a woman was considered a sign of virility and a go-getter attitude rather than being astoundingly dickish and sexual assault)”
I think you’re oversimplifying things. Kirk telling Charlie Evans that he had to be gentle and, what’s more, also respect the woman’s feelings was in the 1960s too. And there are still guys who don’t know that today.
“(but that was [TNG] season 2, which sucked).”
I like TNG season 2. I generally like seasons 1 and 2 better and season 3 less than most people. In my view, season 3 has too many episodes where Picard or Riker come across as jerks.
@88 – WTBA: I disagree with almost all in GP’s comments, but a case could be made that if newTyler’s personality is a real person, as in it feels and has memories, etc, however constructed it is, then newTyler did not consent to having sex with L’Rell.
@91 – Redd: What matter is that the constructed Tyler personality considered he had been raped (and, as I say above, he very well might have been), and the show treated that respectfully.
@93 – JanaJansen: It doesn’t matter if deciding how to dress is liberating today (it is, you should dress like you choose), I would argue that no matter how free a society is, you should dress sensibly for a job. Wear shorts or skirts and high heels and whatever to work in an office, but wear pants and practical footwear for a job that might take you into combat or exploration at a moment’s notice, like Starfleet. Thus, miniskirts and go-go boots for Starfleet officers, and only the female officers at that, is still ridiculous.
@94/MaGnUs: You mean, like the Roman army?
That was a sensible outfit for an army back then. Also, they didn’t wear go-go boots, they wore sandals with no heels and gripped soles.
@96/MaGnUs: I love to wear sandals, but in unknown territory, I would prefer boots. And aren’t the boots the one uniform item in TOS that’s worn by men and women both?
@96, it’s not impossible that women would prefer a distinctive uniform over a unisex look. IMO T’Pol and Seven’s skin tight catsuits are much more sexually exploitative than the miniskirts. The latter being perfectly practical aboard ship
@97 – Jana: You live in the 21st century. Roman military footwear were those kind of sandals, because that was sensible at the time.
And while TOS Starfleet men and women both wear boots, they’re quite noticeable not the same. The heel height is practically the same, but the boots themselves are shaped so that the male are simple boots (which I still wouldn’t wear in spacefaring military uniform), while the female boots are clearly made to stylize the legshape, and would make it more difficult to run in (raised arch).
@98 – princessroxana: Which is why this point is about the TOS uniforms.
I think that boot thing goes a lot further than ST. I notice it in a lot of superhero stuff where the women always have heeled boots. Even high heeled sometimes. Remember the Power Rangers movie? Yellow & Pink were THE ONLY ONES WITH HIGH HEELED BOOTS
Ah, you mean the 2017 movie, not the 1995 one. Historically, the majority of female Sentai members/Rangers have had skirted or leotard-patterned uniforms to distinguish themselves from the men, but they’ve always had flat boots/shoes for the sake of the stunt work. That was true of the ’95 movie too.
@99/MaGnUs: I’m not sure if I understand your first paragraph. Do you mean that Romans wore sandals because boots hadn’t been invented yet? Or were too costly to mass-produce?
You’re right, the boots look slightly different. But that doesn’t mean that they’re less practical. They could be made of some futuristic material that makes them fine for running. Just like the tights. They’re probably warm and don’t tear easily, which is more than can be said for the male uniform shirts.
Now I want to see a Starfleet crew where the men wear tunics and tights. That would look quite medieval-ish.
I am no expert on Roman-era footwear, but regardless of the reasons, the sandals they wore were considered proper and (quite likely) hi-tech military gear. Today, no matter what the material, I doubt you’ll find anyone who says that sandals are a good idea for military footwear.
As for the shape, material, or whatnot of boots and tights and skirts, you can retcon or theorize all that you want. The truth remain that ALL men wore pants and sensible-looking boots, and ALL women wore miniskirts (or skants), tights, and boots that altered the shape of their legs (and probably their behinds) to fit a certain aesthetic.
I’d believe there could be better materials, construction techniques, or personal choices involved if, like in early TNG S1, you could see men wearing leg-baring outfits and women wearing pants and regular boots.
@94/MaGnUs: “a case could be made that if newTyler’s personality is a real person, as in it feels and has memories, etc, however constructed it is, then newTyler did not consent to having sex with L’Rell.”
I think it’s unclear. We learned, I think, that the flashback memory that Tyler had believed was of himself, Tyler, having coerced sex with L’Rell was actually one of Voq’s pre-transformation memories of consensual sex, with Tyler’s memory being distorted by his reprogramming. On the other hand, we know that the Tyler persona was imprisoned by L’Rell for at least a couple of weeks before his “rescue,” and he believed that L’Rell had kept him alive as a sexual plaything. It’s unclear whether that was just Tyler’s reprogrammed memory of Voq’s relationship with L’Rell, or if L’Rell actually did compel the Tyler persona to have sex with her. It’s unfortunate that the show left this so ambiguous.
Yes, it’s not definite, that’s why I said “a case could be made”. Perhaps they will explore this in the future. Tell Kirsten Beyer. :)
@102. CLB: “It’s unfortunate that the show left this so ambiguous.”
Yep. Didn’t help that they showed L’Rell’s breasts multiple times, apparently for prurient value.
@104/Sunspear: I have never understood the logic of objecting to nudity in a sex scene. That’s kind of like objecting to drinking in a bar scene, or loud noise in a gunfight scene. People having sex are usually nude. That’s perfectly natural, and it’s silly to use awkward poses and camera angles and improbably positioned sheets to hide it rather than just letting it be what it is. Being totally open with your body, lowering the barriers, is part of what sex is about. So hiding nudity in a sex scene works against it. It’s dishonest and compromising.
Yes, that sex scene had problems, but the fact that women have nipples too was not one of them. Or rather, while I have no objection to debuting nudity in a Star Trek production, I wish it hadn’t been in that context.
@101/MaGnUs: Yes, women and men wear different uniforms in TOS. But that wasn’t what our conversation was originally about, was it? Your original claim was that trousers are more sensible clothing than tunics/short dresses and tights, and therefore the latter are ridiculous uniforms. I disagreed and still do. As for the boots, I must admit that I’m not enough of an expert for any kind of footwear to evaluate your distinction between “regular”, “sensible-looking” boots and others. They all look pretty much the same to me.
The TNG minidresses were nice, but they didn’t survive the first season. Because women can wear traditional men’s clothes, and that’s considered sensible and practical, but men still can’t wear traditional women’s clothes.
@CLB: Le sigh…
I most definitely do not object to nudity in a sex scene. I watch these little videos on the internet that have plenty of… oh, nevermind. Moving on. Showing the same shot over and over (was even included in a Previously on… segment) with no other performer, male or female, ever being nude is the problem. It wasn’t even true nudity, since there were prosthetics involved. So showing the alien naked is ok, I guess. Was already done in the Species films, including the prosthetics on the alien form.
Perhaps they should’ve had a second flashback where Voq was clearly present, showing some sweet Klingon love. Would’ve better explained why he left with L’Rell at the end.
Many good points, but I disagree about the prequel criticism:
One issue I had with Voyager (and especially the future projected in the final episode) is a kind of Dungeons and Dragons leveling-up issue with sci fi: your tech keeps advancing, so you need brand new super hi tech adversaries to keep pace. Instead of photon torpedos, oh dude, we got the QUANTUM torpedos now. Oh we got some fancy shielding. It just becomes an impossible-to-imagine future that is either completely technobabble garbage or not relevant to the present day. I’d be very interested in a far-future version trek show if it were a complete conceptual re-imagining of the Star Trek concept. Like, not just Enterprise NCC 1701 dash K or whatever but actually that space exploration has changed, that conflict is no longer ship to ship submarine battle stuff. This kind of show would be radically ambitious but also something a lot different that what we’re used to. That’s why if we are to have conventional star trek, it makes a lot of sense to me to make it contemporaneous with existing star trek. This way the norms of what we have work and you can tell stories in the existing universe.
The current showrunners changed their tune – at first saying they were following Bryan Fuller’s vision, yet by season’s end declaring that they inherited the Klingon war, but then did what they wanted with it. A much more developed portrayal of Klingon culture must have been Fuller’s intention – but what then did Berg & Harberts & Kurtzman do instead? They made the war, and other Starfleeters, a backdrop for a villain trying to get back to the Mirror- a villain who was quickly forgotten once he was vanquished. So what was the point? (Likely the brain trust thought the Mirror was commentary on present-day USA, but there isn’t much depth to that aim.)
Instead of focusing on the Klingons, they also gave us much setup for the Ash Tyler arc – but what was the point or payoff for that? That Burnham was learning to love a Klingon? No, for the part Burnham was attracted to was his human mind/memories and his human appearance. So this doesn’t serve the “learn to understand Klingons” theme, nor does it have much in the way of plot payoff (his infiltration culminates in snapping the neck of a minor character – was this worth 5 episodes of setup?)
Another puzzler: even with the behind-the-scenes chaos and last-minute scripting, they still must’ve known they had two final episodes to wrap up the war, and their vessel to do that was Burnham and L’Rell coming to a mutual understanding. But they barely even attempt this There are two scenes in the final episodes with L’Rell in captivity – in both she says variants of “we will crush you.” Thus, at the most important point in the season (a truce being brokered being warring parties), Star Trek Discovery plays like crucial scenes are altogether missing (I almost expected the screen to flash “missing reel”) – the very scenes explaining why L’Rell decides to make peace with the humans and the Federation. (I won’t even go into the baffling mechanics of L’Rell taking the Empire hostage). This would be like Star Trek VI ending with Kirk asking General Change to “please stop” and Chang abruptly acquiescing. As for setting free the devious, psychotic Emperor, this seems quite fitting with the show’s unswerving commitment to illogic.
And there is the problem of tone – Discovery’s failings are made all the worse by its attempt to conjure the aura of Premium Prestige Grit for Grownups. Perhaps if it didn’t take itself so deadly seriously, the nonsensical narrative would go down a bit easier. (They might as well increase drastically The Clint Howard Factor, to lend some slight modicum of amusement.) As it stands, the show is guilty of dereliction of duty, for failing to meet the minimum standards of basic storytelling. As to the characters being a redeeming quality – Rapp, WIseman, & Jones do the best with what they have to work with, but the producers seem to have done their damnedest to transform the charming Sonequa Martin-Green into a dour dullard.
@109. Holdo: “Perhaps if it didn’t take itself so deadly seriously, the nonsensical narrative would go down a bit easier.”
Yes, this cuts to the heart of the matter. The Klingon War by itself would’ve been drama enough, if handled well. Instead we got campy and cartoonish elements like evil emperors and would-be-emperors. And the new tech of the spore drive has by now been vilified enough that’s it’s clear it was a completely unnecessary inclusion. If people across the web refer to it as nonsense, ridiculous, idiotic, absurd, not rational, junk science, and so on, it’s time to cut your losses.
We should get some good science in a science fiction show. If not, just drop it and focus on characters and story. Let us meet the bridge crew finally. Give them something to do besides mostly taking up space.
They did pile it on. A protagonist being held responsible for 8,000 deaths, a big honking war, a magic mushroom drive, evil Empire, oh and of course Daddy issues. It was all a bit much.
Deep Space Nine had a lot of set up as well but they built it slowly and gave us a chance to get to know the characters. First season we have the settling in and the reestablishment of Bajor. Second season added more layers to it with the three part Circle story starting off and ending with the Jem Hadar. Discovery didn’t seem to want to catch it’s breath. More, MORE, MORE!!!! was the way it went. And so much of it was centred on Lorca that by the end of the season, there’s a big, gaping hole in the characters. Now we start over again with a new captain.
Another thing that annoyed me was that Starfleet didn’t just cover up the existence of the mirror universe, they ordered that the data regarding it be destroyed. What’s the sense in that? If they know that it’s possible to cross between universes, shouldn’t they study the information they got just in case the MU decides to come visiting? Oh right, it’s so Kirk & Spock can be surprised in Mirror, Mirror. Great big push of the reset button.
Are we to assume that the Klingons didn’t give up the planets that they conquered during the war? Seeing as the fleet turned away from Earth, I’d imagine that the Klingon border is just a few light years from Earth. Of course, in the JJverse, we find out that the Klingon Neutral Zone actually runs through the Klingon system since the Enterprise stays on the Federation side of the border but the planet is clearly visible to the naked eye.
And, just for giggles, where did Lorca get the Tribble and the Gorn skeleton? Surely he didn’t pack a few of his favourites for the trip across the dimensional barriers. Or did I miss something?
The Great Tribble Question will never be resolved!
Oh Wonderful.
Although, wearing a black badge that confirms you’re in a secret organization makes them seem bad at their job. Another retrofit that follows on from Enterprise, but also aligns Discovery more with the JJverse. And another potential generator of continuity problems.
We’re not supposed to worry about continuity.
It also shows that regardless of the line that Section 31 is unsanctioned, the fact that they’re operating openly on Discovery shows that it wasn’t always the case.
I see them as a group that is really only known to the C in C of Starfleet and the Federation President. Most people have never heard of them or dismiss them but the fact remains that they’ve existed for hundreds of years and they’re obviously connected with Starfleet and they have access to Starfleet equipment and personnel.
@116/Sunspear: I don’t see what the continuity problems would be, as long as S31 isn’t publicly outed. We know nothing canonical about S31’s actions in the Prime timeline between the 2150s and the 2370s. And the producers of season 1 took care to ensure that the Mirror Universe remained classified to avoid contradicting “Mirror, Mirror.” So I doubt they’d be unaware of the need to maintain S31’s secrecy.
119. ChristopherLBennett – And the producers of season 1 took care to ensure that the Mirror Universe remained classified to avoid contradicting “Mirror, Mirror.”
Except for the Emperor running around free. And the fact that S31 tracked her down with no problem. It’s not like the Mirror Universe is unknown even though all records were ordered destroyed. (Which makes no sense. Classified at a high level, sure. Destroyed? Why? Wouldn’t you want to know everything you could about a potential enemy who can replace your people?)
Imagine increasingly contorted storytelling when MGeorgiou comes back and then Starfleet has to “classify” her missions again. Isn’t this a limitation? I suppose there could be spies in our world we’ve never heard of, but who had successful missions preventing catastrophes. That’s the generous view if the Emperor is used for good, but we’ve already seen Starfleet itself going genocidal. Don’t think this bodes well for our struggling wannabe utopia.
@121/Sunspear: “Imagine increasingly contorted storytelling when MGeorgiou comes back and then Starfleet has to “classify” her missions again. Isn’t this a limitation?”
Well, the whole point of Section 31 is that everything they do is secret, so I don’t see the issue. Also, why are you assuming she’d be that central a part of the season? More likely she’d just be an occasional guest star again. I doubt they’d repeat the beat of putting her in command of Discovery, if that’s what you’re thinking. That seems a bit too conspicuous for them.
“but we’ve already seen Starfleet itself going genocidal. Don’t think this bodes well for our struggling wannabe utopia.”
We saw that with General Order 24 in “A Taste of Armageddon,” with Nechayev’s attitude vis-a-vis the Borg in “Descent,” and with the Founder virus in DS9. I’ll never understand why people think that’s somehow new to Star Trek. Hell, DSC’s whole “Federation ethics challenged by war” arc is just a rehash of the arc DS9 did two decades ago.
Good grief, Section 31 and the Mirror Universe. This series is starting to look like a dark do-over of Star Trek Enterprise.
Fingers crossed they jump to the 25th century or beyond and make a fresh start of it.
Black badges on NCC-1031…
Guys, your cover is blown.
I’m not talking about the in-universe effects of MPG, Agent of Section31. I’m talking about the writing methods by which they will have to hide her activities from the historical record.
Just happened to watch the episode where we discover Sec 31 infected Odo with the virus. So yeah, it fits with later bloodlust. Guess it goes back to my and others’ expectations of Federation ideals represented in a more optimistic, less dark series. But I don’t want to rehash that here.
@125/Sunspear: “I’m talking about the writing methods by which they will have to hide her activities from the historical record.”
I just don’t see how that’s a problem if the fact that she’s operating in secret is built into the premise from the start. You seem to be assuming that they’d just write her doing big, public stuff and then try to sweep it under the rug after the fact, but that doesn’t make any sense. If they’re beginning with the understanding that she needs to operate in secret, then that will shape the stories they come up with for her in the first place. After all, when has Section 31 ever been shown to act openly in public? Why would you expect them to start now?
“Guess it goes back to my and others’ expectations of Federation ideals represented in a more optimistic, less dark series.”
I still don’t get why people think Discovery is darker than other Trek shows. Yes, it had characters doing dark things, but it also had the main characters standing up against those characters, speaking out for what was good and right, and ultimately winning through their commitment to their positive values. Yes, it had very bad things happen before the heroes won, but so did DS9; so did “The Best of Both Worlds”; so did several TOS episodes where entire civilizations were exterminated offscreen, like “Operation — Annihilate” and “The Changeling.” Discovery was considerably less dark than DS9, because there was no equivalent to “In the Pale Moonlight” with a lead character reluctantly accepting a moral compromise. The heroes repeatedly defied the pressure to make moral compromises and talked Starfleet out of making them, and the characters most willing to make compromises turned out to have been unambiguously evil all along. So it actually had a very black-and-white morality and repeatedly had good triumph over evil.
And Mirror Georgiou, the cannibalistic ex-empress of a racist, genocidal dictatorship, is pretty clearly in the “evil” camp, for all that Burnham believed she could see the potential for something better in her. So if she’s been recruited by Section 31, that makes it likely that Section 31 are going to be portrayed as the bad guys, just as they’ve always been. They’re going to be the antagonists that Discovery‘s crew are standing against, the voice of moral compromise contrasting against the Discovery crew’s purer ethics. They’ll probably be operating behind the scenes, subtly manipulating events, and Burnham, Saru, and the others will gradually discover what they’re up to and come into confrontation with them.
I certainly think that DSC is darker than “my” Star Trek, which consists of TOS, TNG, the first half of DS9 (I haven’t watched the second half), and VOY. That’s why it isn’t part of my personal Star Trek universe. Neither are the reboot films. As far as I am concerned, Spock is still living on Romulus and teaching Vulcan philosophy.
@127/Jana: The thing is, DSC gave the initial impression of being dark because the whole season was one long story, and stories always start out making things bad for the heroes before they get better. “The Changeling” opened with the extermination of 4 billion people offscreen — but ended with Kirk joking about what a doctor his genocidal “son” would’ve made. You have to judge the tone based on the whole story, not just its opening. And in the end, DSC’s first season turned out to be a pretty upbeat story that emphatically reaffirmed Star Trek‘s positive values, even if it did so somewhat clumsily. People thought that Lorca was a Starfleet officer going to morally gray areas, but it turned out he was just a mustache-twirling villain and the “grayness” he represented was pure black, to be rejected by the real Starfleet heroes. The moral compromises always turned out to be the actions of bad people, and the heroes triumphed by standing up for kindness and compassion and understanding. The only way the show was really “dark” was in its production design and cinematography, the pervasive use of literal low lighting.
Moderators, wouldn’t it be great if fans could discuss things without one certain person dominating every conversation with endless lectures about how the rest of us fans are wrong about everything? Isn’t that kind of gatekeeping frowned upon around here?
The lecturer chastises us regularly. We are wrong about caring about continuity. (boy, do we get lectured about THAT!) Now we’re wrong about thinking the show is dark.
It’s becoming an unpleasant place with the constant lectures about how wrong we are about everything.
@127, I have come to the conclusion that the only Star Trek I really like is TOS. I’ve gone off every other series in the franchise.
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@128/Christopher: I’m probably more horrified by war stories than the average SFF audience. I find it much easier to accept a genocidal robot or a natural disaster. And in previous Trek shows, we always had at least the ship (or space station) as home, where likeable people worked together and tried to do some good. In that respect DSC has been darker than the others. As for the moral compromises, they weren’t always actions of bad people; there was also Cornwell.
@130/Roxana: I will never like anything as much as I like TOS. But I’ve found enough things to like in the other shows to keep watching. For many years, I believed that there was a Star Trek formula every future show would rely on (nice people, optimistic future, strange new worlds, morality tales), and thus it was guaranteed that I could like every new show at least to some degree.
@132/Jana: “And in previous Trek shows, we always had at least the ship (or space station) as home, where likeable people worked together and tried to do some good. In that respect DSC has been darker than the others.”
Again, that was less so by the end of the season. The problem was, this was a single long origin story that took months to unfold, so the initial tension of the situation lasted too long. As Keith said in the article above, the way the story was structured would’ve worked better as something to be binged all at once rather than spread out over months.
The Discovery crew did have a number of unlikeable people at first — Lorca at the top, Landry as security chief, and the rest of the crew tense and uneasy and at odds because of the negative influence Lorca created. But over the course of the season, the core characters — Burnham, Saru, Stamets, and Tilly — bonded with each other, brought out the best in each other, stood together to resist the darker pressures, and ultimate reaffirmed Starfleet values and united the crew in a more positive way. And the darker characters ended up killed off or written out by the end. So the Discovery we saw in the first half of the season was darker than a normal Trek crew, yes, but the crew we’re left with at the end of the season — the crew we’ll be following going forward — is much more positive, united, likeable, and classically Trekkish. It’s just that it took time for them to get there, rather than starting out that way like most other Trek casts. (Or getting there implausibly quickly, like the mixed Starfleet/Maquis crew of Voyager.)
“As for the moral compromises, they weren’t always actions of bad people; there was also Cornwell.”
Who was in the same position as Nechayev in “Descent” and made a similar call. (As did the admirals who looked the other way when Section 31 infected the Founders.) But while Nechayev stuck by her guns and directly ordered Picard to attempt genocide against the Borg if given the chance again, Cornwell was convinced to withdraw her support for the genocidal plan. So I’d say Cornwell scores better than Nechayev on that count.
There’s also the fact that it was Emperor Georgiou who originated the plan and talked Cornwell into it — just as Lorca talked Stamets and Burnham into torturing the “tardigrade.” The initial impetus behind the ideas came from Mirror Universe villains, and most of the Starfleet characters (other than Landry, the anomaly) went along reluctantly and eventually chose to take a better path instead.
@133/Christopher: Oh, I would forgive them many things I disliked if they were going for a “classic” Star Trek tale in the second season. But the first thing we hear about the second season is that there will be a Section 31 agent. That doesn’t sound good. Why don’t we hear that there will be a planet with weird plantlife and quirky aliens in trouble?
@CLB: “You seem to be assuming that they’d just write her doing big, public stuff and then try to sweep it under the rug after the fact, but that doesn’t make any sense.”
It’s not an assumption according to the clip they played. The recruiting agent talked about “shaping the galaxy” to an ex-emperor. Does that not sound big or is it pure metaphor? Can even read some imperial intention into it, if so inclined. Perhaps Sec 31 wants to Make the Empire Great Again. I guess I can see them being the villains in Season 2, but it’s not the story I want. More paranoia and darkness.
The black and white morality I could also do without. I would’ve welcomed moral “grayness” and more complex storytelling. The continued presence of the emperor keeps this show at the level of Flash Gordon serials: heroes and villains, white knights versus black knights. Both SF and TV overall are capable of more sophisticated fare.
@134/Jana: Just because the Section 31 thing was revealed first, that doesn’t automatically mean it’s the central thread of the season. A teaser isn’t meant to tell us everything. Heck, this wasn’t even a proper teaser. It’s a deleted scene that they decided to repurpose as a makeshift teaser at a convention. Since it was originally meant as a tag of sorts for the finale, I think it was mainly meant to tie off the loose thread about the black badges and to give a sense of where Georgiou would be going next. If it had been left in the episode as planned, it would’ve been alongside all the other setup stuff in the closing scenes, like the hint about the new captain and the cliffhanger with the Enterprise, and we would’ve seen more clearly that it was just one thread out of several.
Because the Hollywood promotional machine is constitutionally incapable of believing that the kind of Star Trek you want will sell well enough to succeed. The insititutional wisdom is that your franchise has to be monstrously successful out of the gate or else it will DIE DIE DIE (hysterical all-caps very much not exaggerated). And the institutional wisdom is also that Heartwarming Optimism Doesn’t Sell (hard-wired initial caps ditto). This is one of the ongoing problems with adapting things like the Narnia books or A Wrinkle In Time into the current marketplace; studio marketing departments simply will not believe that such old-fashioned stuff will actually attract audiences without car chases and explosions and angst and obsessive gloom and lots and lots of CGI.
This does not — quite — mean that it’s impossible to make a Star Trek series in the old optimistic “let’s have fun” mode. But as we saw, and as Christopher describes, the storytellers have to sneak that material past the marketing people by putting in just enough explosions and angst to convince the marketing people that no, this is not that stupid retro optimism that Will Not Sell, it’s modern and gritty and totally in tune with the doom and gloom that is all the rage nowadays. And of course the angsty stuff gets all the marketing attention, because that’s what institutional wisdom thinks will sell best.
Sustaining this kind of retro optimism is also exceedingly difficult even once you get your franchise into production. No matter how loudly the fandom shouted at them, for instance, the makers and marketers of Castle would not believe that their audience liked the bantering, lightly comic episodes of their series better than they liked the excursions into angst and complicated gritty serialized arcs. So they kept making more and more angsty arc episodes and fewer and fewer fun, clever episodes, and the last several seasons of the show suffered mightily as a result. Note also that even with Seth MacFarlane in charge, the official marketing for The Orville pretty much slides right over the idea that this series is having actual capital-F Fun with its premise and characters, because the conventional wisdom is that there is no such thing as a successful science fiction/comedy hybrid. (Galaxy Quest doesn’t count, says the institutional wisdom; that was a movie and The Orville is TV.)
So no matter how much the producers and writers of Star Trek: Discovery may want to make a series in the spirit of the original series, the only way they can get that series on the air is to lie like rugs and spin like figure skaters (and put in just enough grit and cynicism to make some trailers) in order to get that series past the institutional forces that will insist to their dying breaths that nobody wants to see that sort of Star Trek series any more.
The thought of Section 31 being involved next season (especially if it is in some kind of long involved thing with Georgiou), just means I won’t watch it. I really do like a “planet of the week” kind of thing with a variety of adventures–and without so much grimdark. To those who like it–enjoy!
Introducing Section 31 was the worst thing that DS9 ever did, in fact it might be the worst thing to happen in Star Trek even counting Neelix. Even worse than Phlox and Archer committing genocide. Even worse than Profit and Lace. All that happened is all the self-styled “edgy badass” types glommed onto it and used it to enact their own grimdark fantasies.
Now I don’t mind the idea in principle that in a conflict like the Dominion War that someone inside Starfleet Intelligence might have had their moral compass come unstuck and lose their way, leading to the whole virus thing (although some smarter writing might have avoided creating an enemy so overpowered that that sort of thing was the only way to walk it back down enough for a finale), but that is what it ought to have been presented as; someone who lost their way. Desperate times, etc. It ought to have been condemned instead of being glorified in the way it did. I don’t just blame DS9, of course, I also blame Enterprise too. The whole concept should have been Thresholded out of canon at the earliest opportunity, along with the other afore mentioned episodes, not cemented.
@John C Bunnell: Your argument embeds a counter-argument. If the “institutional forces” want grimdark so much, why is a show like Star Trek: The Orville on the air? It is possible to make something lighter, with some humor, and still be a drama.
Look at the vastly more balanced approach Marvel took with their superheroes. They allowed for different tones, even shaping each movie as homages to older genre fare, like CA: The Winter Soldier‘s nods to spy thriller from the 70s (Three Days of the Condor, Parallax View… and so on). Warner, on the other hand, ludicrously took everything too seriously. One exec’s notes even said, “No jokes, at all.” How did all that Randian darkness turn out for them?
What you say is supposition, but if indeed that’s what CBS sees as the landscape, they are severely misjudging and hampering their own potential success. An evil emperor as a secret agent sounds cool, but the more you think about it, is laughable.
133. ChristopherLBennett – Cornwell was convinced to withdraw her support for the genocidal plan.
Only after her (and Sarek’s ! ) plan was discovered and she was in no position to force Burnham and the rest to follow thorough. If Tilly hadn’t stumbled upon the actual plan, Kronos would be covered in lava now,
And how is allowing a “cannibalistic ex-empress of a racist, genocidal dictatorship” run free in the galaxy doing the right thing? Oh, she looks like her mentor so It’s totally understandable. Sorry, that excuse didn’t work when Spock allowed Sybok to take over the ship either.
We’ve got a Sarek who advocated for genocide and a Harry Mudd who’s a mass murderer multiple times over. Yeah, good people. Harry may have been a rogue but he was a lovable rogue. Sarek had problems between him and his son but he always tried to do the right thing. Guilty conscience perhaps?
And the WTF moment has got the be the “Hi, we’re members of a super secret Starfleet division that people don’t believe really exists. Want to see our super secret uniform badges that only we get to wear?” Way to stay below the radar there guys.
The main problem I have with bringing Section 31 into the mix is the plentiful amount of secret organizations, super spies, double agents, surprise villains and government approved skullduggery already in television and movies now. There’s nothing wrong on the face of it with telling those kind of stories. They’re trying to speak to the times. I get it. But just about everyone else happens to be telling those stories too. It makes Discovery look average, and Star Trek ought never look average.
Furthermore, put that alongside the increased amount of action, camera gymnastics, fast pacing and graphic, grossout violence, it makes Discovery look like something I’ve also grown weary of in recent years simply due to the sheer tonnage of output in the culture: a comic book. Worst of all, a comic book that takes itself too seriously.
@142/Redd: I wouldn’t call those attributes of comic books; obviously comic books don’t have camera gymnastics, and as for the pacing, if anything, modern comics storytelling is very decompressed and it can take months to tell a relatively short story. What you’re describing are more like conventions of modern action filmmaking, and a lot of modern movies and TV shows are based on comics but adapt them to the conventions of the screen. (And indeed, comics in recent years have tried to become more “cinematic” in their approach, doing things like dropping narration boxes and thought balloons, designing costumes with more texture and detail like live-action costumes, and the like.)
#143
Sorry, that’s what I meant: comic book movies. I guess I was using comic book in an adjective sense. But really, to me them and the books and the graphic novels and the action movies and the TV shows are all the same puffed up muckety-muck. Part of me still wants to llike them, but I just got burnt out on the whole shebang years ago. And Discovery is feeling very comic booky.
I really hope the people who hate the idea of S31 never read David Mack’s novel “Control”… I know I enjoyed the book, but disliked the concept.
@144/Redd: My point is, comic books are just the source for the subject matter of those movies, not the source for their filmmaking style. The style is that of action movies in general. It just happens that a lot of those movies these days are based on comic book characters and plotlines, but that doesn’t make them the same thing. Your generalization is unfair to comics.
@136/Christopher: “Just because the Section 31 thing was revealed first, that doesn’t automatically mean it’s the central thread of the season.”
Sure. But it reinforces a suspicion I already had, namely that they will neither do a space exploration story set on an alien planet nor portray Starfleet and the Federation as a better future, because optimism, explorers, and the outdoors have all gone out of fashion. As always, I will be very happy if I’m wrong.
@138/Jedikalos: Same here.
@147/Jana: As I’ve said, I think the first season was very much about reaffirming optimism. Optimistic storytelling doesn’t mean everything is rosy and happy. It means that, no matter how dark and dismal things may seem at the start of the story, good people doing things the right way will still prevail in the end. And that’s exactly the arc of the first season. The cynics and the moral compromisers were always shown to be wrong or evil, and the people who stuck to Starfleet values and strove to find better, kinder solutions were the ones who saved the day.
Also, show staffs learn from experience, just like everyone else does. First seasons are where things get tried out and the staff discovers what works and what doesn’t. Second seasons are where they apply those lessons and try to do better. So first seasons are generally different from what follows, and are often the weakest season of a show. (Though not always. TNG and DS9 had weak first seasons compared to what followed, but ENT’s first season was much better than its second.)
Edited to add: Here’s an interview with the showrunners about where they’re going in season 2:
https://trekmovie.com/2018/03/26/star-trek-discovery-showrunners-reveal-season-2-theme-plans-for-burnham-airiam-and-more/
I’m not crazy about everything they hint at — I’m unsure about the whole “science vs. spirituality” angle — but it doesn’t sound like it’s wallowing in darkness or pessimism. A couple of choice quotes:
“We are not at war anymore. It is our hope we are going to be doing more away missions and a lot more exploration.”
“…I am excited to hear… that the fans are open to more scenes where things have “stopped down,” scenes where characters are checking in and where we are learning more about stuff, where the plot isn’t necessarily driving the whole thing. I am proud of all the turns, but I am glad to know people are interested in these quieter moments. Mix it up, have a more of a “slice of life” flavor.”
@144 Redd – You are completely correct about comic-book movies. The overblown, what’s-cool-right-now shallowness has infected action films and, sadly, Star Trek. Actually, I’d say comic-book movies are deeper and more intellectually complex than anything in DSC, but that’s just my opinion.
@147 JanaJansen – You are completely correct about the lack of true optimism in DSC. Apparently “things will always suck and humans will always suck, but a few won’t, maybe” is optimism to some around here. Nope. Star Trek’s optimism (at least Roddenberry’s version) said “things will not always suck, and humans won’t always suck, except maybe a few.” The idea of bettering ourselves was key to Roddenberry’s Trek but mocked openly in DS9 and utterly discarded by DSC. Section 31 is an inherently cynical concept that has poisoned Star Trek for too long.
@148 ChristopherLBennett – Your opinions are yours, and you are welcome to them, but it would be lovely if you could stop lecturing all of us about how wrong we are about everything. If you’re allowed to keep doing so, then perhaps we should start lecturing you as well. (For example, you are utterly wrong about continuity and about optimism and…)
Or, you know, maybe you could stop acting like your opinion is scripture. Try conversing instead of lecturing.
149. PaulB Speak for yourself, I tend to agree with CLB on most of what he says, including continuity and optimism.
Once again: please avoid making disagreements personal; if you don’t like how someone expresses themselves, ignore them and don’t engage. Sniping at one another in the comments is not a viable solution, and is not in keeping with our community guidelines. This has been addressed in comment #131, and will not be addressed here again.
The only person who had misgivings about Lorca was Cornwell and she slept with him despite that. It was only when he pulled a phaser on him that she realized something big was up. And she still came up with a plan to kill billions of Klingons by destroying their home planet. Everyone else may have questioned Lorca and his motives but they still followed him. Burnham started a war and committed mutiny over a difference of opinion over how to deal with one Klingon ship but after the war started, she pretty much fell into line. Yes, she did release the tardigrade but only when it was literally on the point of death. A point that she helped bring it to. Torturing a person (if it was intelligent) or abusing an animal (if it wasn’t) and the stopping just before it dies doesn’t make you a good person. Refusing to torture someone does.
And what about all the Federation citizens on the planets that the Klingons conquered during Burnham’s War? The Klingons had a fleet literally within eyesight of Earth. We’re told that a huge percentage of the Federation has fallen. Or are we to believe that the Klingons simply gave those planets back? If threatening to destroy Kronos is all it takes, why give up the bomb and give them a chance to get their houses unified? Why not insist that the Klingons give up all their conquered planets before letting them off the hook?
And Section 31 was operating more or less openly, at least as far as their mandate would allow. If you’re trying to keep your very existence secret, you don’t give them a distinctive uniform. You dress them like the other members of Starfleet and give them cover identities. What we got was more like having CIA operatives operating on a ship where the crew know that they’re part of a group that operates on a “need to know” basis. You know that they’re there but you’re not supposed to question them.
And a peaceful end to the war came about due to a chance discovery by Tilly and not from and serious efforts to find a peaceful way out.
So what do we think of Anson Mount as Christopher Pike in season 2?
Or Tig Notaro as Chief Engineer of new ship Hiawatha?
Mount is pretty much perfect casting as Pike……………..
—Keith R.A. DeCandido
@152, and this devastating war and near defeat is Totally Forgotten a mere ten years later.
@157/roxana: Not totally forgotten. The war would explain why Kirk felt such animosity toward the Klingons in “Errand of Mercy,” and why the security guard at the start of “Friday’s Child” panicked and drew his weapon at the barest glimpse of a Klingon. That hostility had to be based on some past history of conflict. And it gives a backstory for the colony attack Chekov mentions in “Day of the Dove” (where his imaginary brother was supposedly killed — but nobody questions the reality of the attack itself). And if Kirk’s early Starfleet career took place during a war, it fits with his tendency to default to a military response until he later thinks it through and tries a more peaceful tack.
Otherwise, TOS took place on the frontier far beyond Federation territory, so there’s no reason the war’s impact on the Federation itself would’ve needed to come up much.
@158/Christopher: Kirk feels animosity toward Klingons because they conquer peaceful planets, turn them into slave labour camps, and take and kill hostages. He thinks that’s a terrible thing to do. Why isn’t that a good enough reason?
And the attack mentioned in “Day of the Dove” could just as well have happened during the events of “Errand of Mercy” – or, for that matter, not have happened at all. The alien entity was very good at making people believe things. Do you think that there really had been a human colony on the planet they beam down to in the first scene? It might have been another delusion.
@158, If the writers for ST: Discovery bothered to pay attention to continuity it wouldn’t be necessary to make excuses for them. There’s a difference between the occasional border incident and full scale honking war ripping through the center of your polity.
@159/Jana: “Why isn’t that a good enough reason?”
I never said it wasn’t. I just said that there are things in TOS that can be reinterpreted as aftereffects/acknowledgments of the war in DSC.
This is the way ongoing continuities work. New information inevitably changes our perception of what came before. It doesn’t mean that what came before was wrong, and it doesn’t mean that the new stuff is wrong. Because change is not wrong. It’s just change. If a story is still being told, one has to expect that it will reveal new information that changes the way we look at it. Just like living real life, learning new things, leads us to reassess things over time.
I still say it’s not as bad as TNG spending its first two seasons insisting that Starfleet was a peacetime exploration service with no experience with war, and then suddenly revealing in the fourth season that the Federation had been at war with Cardassia throughout those first two seasons. At least there’s a 10-year gap between DSC and TOS, so it’s not overwriting a continuity we saw depicted in real time.
CLB, gotta agree with you about TNG. Now that’s egregious.
@158/Christopher: On a side note, TOS didn’t take place “far beyond Federation territory”. They visited starbases, known planets and Federation colonies a lot. I remember being confused by this when I first watched it. Weren’t they supposed to spend all their time “where no man had gone before”? Then I showed it to my daughters a few years ago, and they complained about the same thing.
@161/Christopher: My problem with the reinterpretation isn’t that it’s a reinterpretation. My problem is that it diminishes the character of Kirk and the story told in “Errand of Mercy”. Kirk cares about the Organians in the beginning, and in the end he finds himself siding with Kor. If he starts out as an embittered old soldier who hates the Klingons for personal reasons, “Errand of Mercy” becomes a different, and IMO lesser, story.
As for TNG, I agree, but my solution is to ignore the later change. I employ the same solution here.
@163/Jana: “On a side note, TOS didn’t take place “far beyond Federation territory”. They visited starbases, known planets and Federation colonies a lot.”
Starbases were the equivalent of frontier forts in the Old West — outposts in the “wilderness” to support those explorers who went there, necessary precisely because they weren’t surrounded by a well-established civilization. And colonies, by definition, are beyond the home territory of a nation. They were the equivalent of frontier towns. The Federation heartworlds would’ve been the equivalent of the United States east of the Mississippi — New York, Washington, Boston, Cincinnati, Chicago, stuff like that. The sort of places you rarely saw in a Western, because its focus was on the frontier.
Really, it’s right there in the title narration: “Space: the final frontier.” The show was about voyages beyond the cozy, established borders of civilization. Yes, there was a Federation presence there, but it was still a considerable distance from the heartworlds. It occasionally visited worlds like Vulcan or had the ship on diplomatic missions between Federation worlds, but the primary goal of the show’s creators was to tell stories about expanding the frontier. This is something that was increasingly lost in the movies and TNG, as they focused more and more on Earth and the home territories of the UFP.
“My problem is that it diminishes the character of Kirk and the story told in “Errand of Mercy”. Kirk cares about the Organians in the beginning, and in the end he finds himself siding with Kor. If he starts out as an embittered old soldier who hates the Klingons for personal reasons, “Errand of Mercy” becomes a different, and IMO lesser, story.”
That’s not what I’m saying at all. I’m just saying that it’s an overstatement to say that there’s nothing in TOS that reflects the existence of this war, because the established history of Federation-Klingon hostility in TOS can be explained by the war. I’m not saying anything about Kirk hating the Klingons for personal reasons — I’m talking about how he approaches situations as an officer, as a soldier. If he’s had direct experience of the Klingons as enemy combatants, that would explain the strength of his reaction to them as a threat — not on a personal level, but on a professional level, as an officer using his experience to assess a threat.
Keep in mind when TOS was made. It was written and produced by men who had served in WWII and Korea, and that informed how they wrote Starfleet characters. There’s a sense in the show that these officers’ experience includes combat, that it hasn’t been exclusively during peacetime. And every portrayal of the Klingons makes it pretty clear that there has been open conflict between them in the past, that they’ve had a history of military clashes, including things like Donatu V and the raid mentioned in “Day of the Dove.” We didn’t think it was anything as big or as recent as the war in Discovery, no, but there had to be something. The difference between what TOS suggested and what DSC revealed is merely one of degree, not of kind.
“As for TNG, I agree, but my solution is to ignore the later change.”
Except that’s impossible, because too much of the series that followed depended on the history of UFP-Cardassian conflict that “The Wounded” established. New continuity overwrites old, not the other way around. That’s why we have James T. Kirk instead of James R., Vulcans instead of Vulcanians, Starfleet instead of UESPA, Will Riker instead of Bill, emotionless Data instead of emotional Data.
@164/Christopher: Concerning starbases and colonies, I just meant that they weren’t “far beyond Federation territory”. I know that they were far away from their homeworlds (well, most of the time).
Concerning the history of the Federation/Klingon conflict, I disagree. For starters, a difference in degree is not automatically a small or insignificant difference. The difference between small military clashes and a major war is a huge one. Then, TOS was unclear on how much fighting there had been in recent history. It allows for different interpretations, probably because the different writers had different ideas about what a better future entails. It could be taken as a portrayal of a peaceful future, and many fans did take it that way. I’m one of them.
Concerning Kirk and “Errand of Mercy”, sorry, but there is a difference between someone who has fought an enemy in a war and someone who simply feels for oppressed people everywhere. It isn’t the same story.
“New continuity overwrites old”. – That’s the rule for writers. For mere fans, the situation is reversed: You fall in love with a story, a bunch of characters, or a universe. When the story or character or universe is changed, especially decades later by completely different people, you are under no obligation to love that too. You decide whether to accept the change. The new story has to apply for your affection, not the other way round.
I see the Cardassians as the 24th century equivalent of the TOS Klingons. There could be an ongoing conflict between them and the Federation even if there never was a war. It happens in the real world too.
^Yes, obviously the Cardassian situation can be explained. I addressed that discrepancy in The Buried Age over a decade ago. But that’s just the point. If such a major continuity error within a single show can be reconciled, then so can this one. It’s hardly the hugest continuity error in Trek history. The pretense that any of this stuff fits together has always required a liberal amount of squinting and pretending.
@166/Christopher: Oh, I don’t mind the squinting and pretending. I just don’t want to lose the stories and characters and universe I like.
Just started reading Adam Roberts’ The History of Science Fiction (2016 ed.), which as far as I know is the most comprehensive since Brian Aldiss’ Trillion Year Spree. It’s thesis may ultimately not hold up, but it’s an interesting argument for tracing the birth of recognizable science fiction to the Protestant Reformation. Earlier examples are more aligned with Catholicism’s emphasis on the supernatural, which supposedly fosters pure fantasy modes, rather than SF.
That dichotomy may be untenable (after all, protestants also have supernatural beliefs), but it attempts to ground a sense of wonder in more materialistic terms and the scientific process when we examine science fiction stories that take on transcendent elements.
All of which is to say that it made me feel better about the new tack of Discovery season 2, where they will supposedly delve into “spiritual” (mystical?) themes. It gave me a ST:V level cringe when I first heard about it.
Anson Mount as Pike is brilliant casting.
More random news:
According to the designers of Pike’s Enterprise, the ship had to be 25% different than the TOS design for legal reasons. Apparently splitting the IP between TV and movies disallowed “crossovers.” This would also explain the Defiant changes, but overall doesn’t make a lot of sense. The designs came from the TV side after all. The JJverse design having to be different makes more sense.
Also, Jon Frakes will direct 2 episodes in season 2 and may already be getting in trouble again for saying too much. He said a young Spock will be appearing in flashback in Ep 2, but apparently no adult Spock on Pike’s ship.
@170/Sunspear: I think you’re conflating two different things from the discussion thread on the topic. As I understood it, the allegation is that the TV/movie split is why the Kelvin movies’ Enterprise had to be so different, and that was just being used as an analogy/precedent for whatever other rights split is behind the reputed need to redesign the ship for Discovery.
One hypothesis I saw proposed on another board is that the “legal” issue may have been more one of merchandising, the studio wanting to keep the Discovery designs distinct from previous ones so they could be marketed as distinct products. That’s just guesswork, of course, but it sounds more plausible than some of the wacky speculations I’m already hearing from fandom.
EDIT: Okay, I found the actual thread on Facebook, and it does sound as if John Eaves is saying the ownership split was the reason, but it also sounds like he’s just assuming that was why he was told to modify the design — that it was the reason on the movies he worked on, so he thinks it’s logical that it’s the reason here too. He and the other designer, Scott Schneider, both say that the specific reasons for the decision were above their pay grade and they just did what they were told. So we’re not getting the whole story here. Schneider suggests at one point in the thread that it might just be some arcane contractual loophole, a result of the approval process getting more complicated as a result of the CBS/Paramount split.
159. JanaJansen
@158/Christopher: Kirk feels animosity toward Klingons because they conquer peaceful planets, turn them into slave labour camps, and take and kill hostages. He thinks that’s a terrible thing to do. Why isn’t that a good enough reason?
Where do we see Klingons conquering peaceful planets? In A Private Little War, they’re proving flntlocks to the villagers. Why not simply beam down some troops and conquer them? And in Friday’s Child, they’re negotiating with the Capellans when they could have easily taken over the planet.
What we get about the Klingons in TOS is primarily from Kirk’s POV. Who’s to say that he didn’t buy into the Federation propoganda about the Klingons? Sure, they’re not cuddly but we don’t see them acting as he thinks. In Errand of Mercy Kor does take some Organians hostage with the threat that he’ll execute them if he’s opposed but he doesn’t kill them right of the bat in order to make a point. Kor doesn’t order them executed until Kirk and Spock disobey not only Kor’s order but the wishes of the Organians. And we don’t know the circumstances of what started that war. It could have been a situation similar to Arena where the Federation claimed a planet that the Klingons saw as theirs.
And Kirk seems quite friendly with Koloth in The Trouble with Tribbles. Hardly the sort of thing you’d expect if they were basically space Nazis.
The way I see it, the Federation approached the Klingons in a way that the Klingons didn’t understand, from what they saw as a position of weakness. This is even brought out in the opening of Discovery. Starfleet expects everyone to act like “civilized” human beings , ignoring the fact that other races AREN’T human. Starfleet shows up, makes the grand overtures and when they’re rebuffed either declare that they have to be taught a lesson in how to behave like humans or pull out General Order 24 and threaten to kill everyone as we saw in A Taste of Armageddon and Requiem for Methuselah.
As Azetbur says, the Federation is nothing more than a Homo Sapiens only club. Starfleet is based on Earth. The Federation is based on Earth. The vast majority of Starfleet officers are human. The ship names are overwhelmingly Human. It’s basically Earth and some allies, none of whom have anywhere near the control over the Federation and Starfleet that Earth does,
164. ChristopherLBennett
Starbases were the equivalent of frontier forts in the Old West — outposts in the “wilderness” to support those explorers who went there, necessary precisely because they weren’t surrounded by a well-established civilization.
Starbases were the major facilities for the fleet. The outpost as seen in Arena is much closer to a frontier fort. The vast majority of American bases located on American soil are much larger than the overseas equivalents. Starbases are Pearl Harbour and San Diego and San Francisco and the equivalent bases on the Atlantic coast.
And as far as Discovery simply being a matter of degree, I’ll leave you with this from Carol Marcus. “Starfleet has kept the peace for a hundred years” . She may have been exaggerating the time scale but it would be like claiming in the 1980’s that there had been no American wars in a century.
@172/kkozoriz: I give you the same answer I gave Christopher in comment #163: I like “Errand of Mercy” as it is. Kirk’s slippery slope is much more effective when Klingon rule is really as horrible as he claims it to be. If the Klingons are simply misunderstood, the fact that he sides with Kor in the end loses its impact.
I know that you’re fond of the “Homo sapiens only club” line, but I find it stupid. It’s like making up an in-universe explanation for the redesigned Klingons. We all know that Starfleet is primarily human because the Enterprise started out as an Earth ship, because the audience is from Earth, and because alien makeups cost money. A better solution would have been the one chosen by later Trek shows and some of my favourite tie-in novels: just add more aliens.
In fact, it’s not only stupid, it’s hypocritical. TAS and TMP had already added more aliens when Nicholas Meyer came along and gave us an all-human Starfleet with one and a half token Vulcans in TWOK. And a few years later, the same guy has a character complain in-universe about human supremacy?
173. JanaJansen – But Klingon rule isn’t as bad as he says it is. And if it were, would the Federation really have allied with them by TNG? Or did they give up their conquering ways? If it is as you say, why didn’t they conquer Tyree’s planet or Capella? Why negotiate or provide arms? Because it takes a lot of time, money and manpower to hold onto a planet by conquest. When Kor was getting frustrated with the Organians being “sheep”, why not just exterminate them all?
And don’t forget, as Discovery has just shown us, Sarek was in favour of killing everyone on the Klingon homeworld. Who’s the barbarian now? It’s not a change in character I’m fond of but it’s what’s been given to us. And both Errand of Mercy and the Discovery arc took place during war.
@171. CLB: Eaves’ grammar is a bit contorted, but he says,
““After Enterprise, properties of Star Trek ownership changed hands and was divided, so what was able to cross TV shows up to that point changed and a lot of the crossover was no longer allowed. That is why when JJ [Abrams]’s movie came along everything had to be different. The alternate universe concept was what really made that movie happen in a way as to not cross the new boundaries and give Trek a new footing to continue.”
So after the show Enterprise, the new movie franchise had to feature different designs. But it’s still unclear as mudd why the TV side had to make changes, since they owned the original designs. By implication, this crossover injunction would rule out ever seeing Picard’s Enterprise or DS9’s Defiant in their original forms (say in a time travel story).
@175/Sunspear: From what Scott Schneider says, I’m now thinking that maybe it’s not that CBS has lost the rights exactly, more that there are just more parties in addition to CBS who have to sign off on the decision to use something, and it’s harder and more time-consuming to get all those ducks in a row, so they just take the path of least resistance and tweak the design so they don’t have to go through the greater rigmarole that the approval process has now become. After all, it still looks enough like the Enterprise that it’s immediately recognizable as same, and that’s close enough for most purposes.
@174/kkozoriz: They changed their approach after “Errand of Mercy” because the Organians forced them to, and later they changed their ways even more, partly out of economic necessity. Why not? It happens in real life too.
We have no idea how long the Organians imposed their treaty or how widespread it was. Other than one mention in The Trouble with Tribbles, we never heard about them in TOS again. And it didn’t stop them from trying to blow up the Enterprise in Elaan of Troyus (although that was with some outside help). Also didn’t stop Kruge. And Kor managed to attack the robot freighters in the TAS tribble sequel.
If their plan was to stop conflict, they weren’t doing a very good job of it.
@176. CLB: “that’s close enough for most purposes.”
It is and I have no trouble with the alterations. It just highlights how much of the business/legal side interferes with the creative. Reminds me a bit of the decades long fight with the heirs of Superman’s creators, where DC stopped using the red trunks to avoid paying royalties. It a legit design choice and make sense not to have a character, based on Charles Atlas type beachwear with the legs colored in, wearing underpants on the outside. But morally… still a bit icky. Interestingly, they are using the red trunks in Action Comics 1000 this week.
@178/kkozoriz: “We have no idea how long the Organians imposed their treaty or how widespread it was. Other than one mention in The Trouble with Tribbles, we never heard about them in TOS again.”
The treaty was also mentioned in “A Private Little War” and “Day of the Dove”, although the Organians were not.
“If their plan was to stop conflict, they weren’t doing a very good job of it.”
They didn’t stop conflict, they only stopped outright war. That’s why the Klingons resorted to small-scale operations afterwards.
@179/Sunspear: “wearing underpants on the outside”
I hate that phrase. First off, trunks are athletic wear, not underwear. Calling them underwear is a juvenile insult, not the height of wit that everyone these days seems to think it is. Second, since Clark wears his Superman costume under his street clothes, it’s technically all underwear anyway.
A treaty is mentioned in A Private Little War. It doesn’t appear to be the Organian Treaty because of this:
KIRK: Bones, I’m as worried about Spock as you are, but if the Klingons are breaking the treaty it could be interstellar war
If the Organian Treaty was in place to stop outright war, why bother about it as a consequence of breaking it?
And to be complete, this is the mention from Day of the Dove.
KANG: For three years, the Federation and the Klingon Empire have been at peace. A treaty we have honoured to the letter.
So the Organian Treaty, if that is indeed the same treaty they’re talking about, could still lead to war.
And the only other mention of the Organians, from The Trouble with Tribbles
CHEKOV: Under terms of the Organian Peace Treaty, one side or the other must prove it can develop the planet most efficiently.
and
KORAX: We have been in space for five months. What we choose as recreation is our own business.
KOLOTH: I might also add that under terms of the Organian Peace Treaty, you cannot refuse us.
That’s it. Nothing about the treaty preventing all out war. Most likely, the treaty only applies to planets within a certain distance of Organia. Essentially, they told the kids to get off their lawn.
They’re not underpants on the outside. They’re briefs on the outside. Get it right, guys.
Redd: Um, briefs are underpants. Not all underpants are briefs, but all briefs are underpants…..
—Keith R.A. DeCandido
But trunks are not underpants. Superman has red trunks. As in, what swimmers and wrestlers wear.
Krad
We deal in specifics here, sir. Let’s call them what they truly are. They are briefs, available at all K-Mart locations. (K stands for Kryptonian.)
@182/kkozoriz: “A Private Little War” doesn’t mention “a treaty”, it mentions “the treaty”. That doesn’t sound as if they had more than one, so I assume it’s the Organian treaty. I also assume that the writers had no idea what the treaty actually contains. They used it as a stand-in for nuclear weapons, but that doesn’t really make sense, hence the contradictions you noted.
Anyone remember the Atlas ads in old comics, featuring the leopard-skin print trunks? The weird design choice is that apparently grown men couldn’t be showing bare legs in 4-color comics. So it ended up looking like trunks over leggings. Even Captain America’s same color pants still suggested trunks worn over leggings. This didn’t stop boy wonder characters like Robin from having bare legs.
Besides, I hear Capt Underpants is popular with the kids these days.
@188/Sunspear: “Even Captain America’s same color pants still suggested trunks worn over leggings.”
Basically the reason for drawing trunks even on monocolored costumes like that was so that the line art wouldn’t look like nude figures.
“This didn’t stop boy wonder characters like Robin from having bare legs.”
It was a cultural convention in the ’30s and ’40s that boys wore short pants and didn’t graduate to long pants until they matured. Like in the old song preserved in vintage cartoons: “My momma done tol’ me / When I was in knee pants.”
Although in Batman ’66, I’m pretty sure Robin wore flesh-colored tights. As did Wonder Woman in the ’70s show.
Trunks are back in fashion these days. Most male joggers I see wear a pair of leggings (nicked from their girlfriend) to cut down on chafing and a pair of “manly” shorts over the top of them to either spare us the sight of their lunchboxes or to shore up their male egos.
@190/random22: Hey, that’s good to hear. Now all we need is for capes to come back into style…
NO CAPES!
—Keith R.A. “Edna” DeCandido
@192/krad: Honestly, I don’t get the modern distaste for superhero capes. There was a time when capes were a standard fashion accessory for elegant people going to formal events, or even for political and military leaders in formal dress, if you go back a couple more centuries. And really, the early Superman and Batman comics and radio episodes referred to their draped garments as cloaks rather than capes, which makes them sound more functional. (The radio show established once or twice that Superman used his cloak to conceal the bundle of Clark Kent clothes behind his back.)
For that line alone I despise that movie.I wish movie makers would stop feeding lines that can be used by judgemental nerds.
Also rain ponchos are kinda cape like and I see loads of runners wearing those too. I could see hero constructing a costume to riff on that, getting a modern trunks, leggings, and cape look. Although hopefully without the weird shaped beards that most of the current crop of joggers have.
Christopher: Right, because formalwear is just what you should be wearing when you’re involved in hand-to-hand combat…………
—Keith R.A. DeCandido
@195/krad: It worked for Errol Flynn and Douglas Fairbanks a lot of the time…
Anyway, bullfighters (ugh) use capes/cloaks as implements for their sadistic version of “combat.” They do have some uses. I’ve seen one or two articles online, including a Marie Brennan piece right here on Tor.com, about how it’s actually possible to do martial arts in a Victorian dress, though it’s a specialized skill. Surely there must be a way to fight in a cloak or cape as well. As long as you have enough practice with how to move in it, you could use it to your advantage, as a way of hiding your body position, readying surreptitious attacks, etc. This has often been used to justify Batman’s use of a cape.
There’s also the Wonder Woman approach, seen in the Lynda Carter series and sometimes in the comics — a cape as an optional accoutrement for a superhero costume, worn on special occasions to give it a more formal look or to deal with cold conditions, but removed if one needs to fight.
Anyway, I just realized we’re discussing this in a Star Trek thread for some reason. Sorry to drag things off topic.
I wish capes were back in fashion, so I could easily get one to wear in the cold weather.
@CLB: “we’re discussing this in a Star Trek thread for some reason…”
It’s within KRAD’s wheelhouse and it keeps the thread alive for when there’s DIS news.
The Batman ’66 comment reminds me that they had trouble with Robin’s trunks revealing too much of a package. Think I got that from the TV movie about the show. Burt Ward may have started the rumor. These days with shows like RuPaul’s, there’s probably advanced techniques to do that.
Random trivia about Bat ’66: Adam West was supposedly in competition with Lyle Waggoner for the role. Imagine that show! And West starred in a Nestle Quik commercial as a James Bond-type that helped him land the role. (wiki)
Seeing as how superheroes are often shown fighting in and around machinery, giant robots, spaceships, and moving parts being far from the bullfighter’s arena, probably best not to wear a cape. As my machine shop teacher in high school said, “No ties, no untucked shirts, and NO CAPES!”
Okay, I added that last one. Thank you, Edna, for telling it like it is.
@199/Redd: Hmm, now you’ve made me wonder if there’s a correlation between the decline in the popularity of cloaks, robes, dresses, and other flowing, draped garments and the increase in machinery in our everyday lives, such as cars, elevator doors, escalators, etc. Maybe too many people were getting their loose garments fouled in the gears, or worse, like dancer Isadora Duncan famously being strangled to death when her long scarf got caught in a car wheel.
Still, in the right context, I think capes can look really classy. Lynda Carter looked terrific in her Wonder Woman costume and cape, and the cape on Melissa Benoist’s Supergirl costume makes her look really elegant, I think. We’ve gotten into the habit of mocking capes because they’re associated with superheroes, but the culture no longer mocks superheroes. So I say it’s time to reassess the aesthetic worth of capes, never mind the practical considerations. After all, superheroes are as much about spectacle as pragmatism.
They will likely add CGI to Shazam’s cape, but so far, the set pictures make it look like he’s wearing drapes, instead of the flowing wizard robes (plus hoodie) of the most recent comics incarnation.
Perhaps a cape is a flying aid.
@202/Jana: “Perhaps a cape is a flying aid.”
That’s how the Supergirl pilot justified it, that it provided stability in flight, but I think it would more likely just create drag. Although in the comics, Superman was given a cape as an aid to the depiction of his flight (or, originally, his really high leaps), because it was essential to creating a sense of motion in still images, so that you could tell he was moving fast and in a particular direction rather than just hovering.
Also, probably a large part of the reason that early superheroes were given capes and cloaks was because Zorro and the Shadow both wore black cloaks at least part of the time. It was part of the visual language of the characters that inspired the first superheroes. Zorro presumably wore a cape because it was part of the fashion of the era in which his stories were set, though looking at stills of the Douglas Fairbanks movie, it seems he took his cape off for action scenes. And the Shadow presumably went cloaked because he was all about blending into, well, the shadows, being a concealed and unseen figure (which was certainly an influence on the early depiction of Batman, given that the plot of Batman’s debut story was directly plagiarized from a Shadow pulp novella).
Perhaps Donald Glover as Lando will remind us how smooth it can be to wear a cape (just to go even further off topic, but it is fun).
Capes, along with things like cloaks, frock coats and great coats, fell out of fashion due to the rise of the automobile replacing horses for traveling and everywhere having central heating.
Mon-El does some interesting things with a CGI cape in the latest episode of Supergirl. Think he says something about “cloth magic” and “cape tricks” and offers to teach her some techniques. Kara says her cape’s only gotten in the way.
Teaser for start of production on season 2:
Enterprise uniforms
Leonard Nimoy’s VO is interesting. They may be playing with fire there if they don’t deliver on how they present Spock.
So the Enterprise has completely different uniforms from Discovery or Shenzou? Why?
@208/roxana: That was addressed in David Mack’s DSC novel Desperate Hours (which teamed up the Shenzhou and the Enterprise two years before the show, and which the show seems to be staying consistent with, on this point at least). I think he said it was an older uniform design that had become exclusive to the Constitution class, or something like that. Anyway, we’ve seen variant uniforms in use at the same time before, on TNG and DS9/VGR. And we saw that the Antares crew in “Charlie X” were still wearing pilot-style turtlenecks, so those uniforms lingered on some ships after they’d been replaced by the V-neck ones.
Somebody at Starfleet command agreed with me that the metal embellishment was a bit much.
Kirk referred to the Antares as a transport ship so presumably it wasn’t part of the normal Starfleet. Merchant Marine perhaps.
The thing about uniforms is that they should be, wait for it, uniform. Having different ships wear radically different uniforms is just odd. DS9 had different uniforms but they were a minor base (at the start) and not a ship. Even the Starbases and admirals wore very similar uniforms.
Perhaps different divisions of Starfleet wear uniforms. Discovery is in the science division so they have the primarily science division blue jumpsuits. The Constitutions are more general purpose and they wear a more varied uniform. Having a uniform exclusive to one class of ships is just silly.
@211/kkozoriz: I’ve always liked that the Star Trek uniforms were more varied than today’s uniforms, because it underlined Starfleet’s “semi-military” nature. But I agree that they should be similar, and that it’s stupid if every ship has different ones. I think the reboot films are to blame. In Into Darkness, the crew wore TOS-style uniforms in space and uniforms that looked annoyingly contemporary and military on Earth.
I like your explanation for the Discovery uniforms, but it doesn’t work, because they already established that the three metal colours correspond to the traditional tripartition. “Context is for Kings” even coined the colloquialism “silvershirts”. It sounded so silly that it stuck in my mind.
I’m really liking what I’m seeing in the season 2 promos. I hope the Enterprise uniforms make their way onto the Discovery, but won’t freak too much if they don’t. I’m still hoping the Captain Pike Enterprise is a backdoor pilot for their own series. Fingers crossed.
212. JanaJansen – On a science vessel you’d still have the normal three divisions. The uniforms would just show that they were under science command instead of, for example, exploration that the Constitutions would be. Science would handle things like the long term explorations of planets as well as research and development (which is what Discovery was doing) where as the Constitutions would show up, make first contact and spend a day or two telling them everything they’re doing wrong and maybe talking their computers to death.
Even in the Science division, you’d need Command, Science/Medical and Engineering/Security.
@214/kkozoriz: What, science vessels are not allowed to destroy computers?
215. JanaJansen – Nope. Science vessels study them and the the Corps of Engineers dismantle them or steal the tech to make new ones.
Maybe that’s one way you get to command a Constitution class ship. You have to talk a computer to death.
Maybe outarguing computers is what they do in 23rd century debate clubs.
It could be a similar situation to Crusher being a captain in All Good Things. She was still a docotr but on a Starfleet Medical ship. Maybe each division has their own fleets and people can serve under different commands. One is more military, One is more exploration. One is more scientific. In Inter Arma Enim Silent Leges the USS Bellerophon was used as a diplomatic ship. perhaps a specialized ship that took over the diplomatic transport role that the Constitutions were pressed into in the past. Remember, they Enterprise had to bump crew members in Journey to Babel and in Elaan of Troyius Uhura had to give up her quarters for just one person and a small group of attendants. Having a crew thats dedicated to dealing with ambassadors, both federation and not, would make more sense that expecting a crew to deal with it on the fly. They could even have medical personnel that are familiar with the various alien species so thy don’t run into a situation like McCoy operating on Sarek even though he’s not well versed in Vulcan medicine.
That still doesn’t explain why the supposedly top secret Section 31 would be wearing uniforms that make them stand out from the standard crew instead of blending in. The fact that they were not the same as the rest of the crew was one of the first tings that Burnham noticed when she was brought on board,
The 24th century has medical ships and diplomatic ships, but in the 23rd century, the Constitutions did everything. They explored space, policed the borders, ferried diplomats and medicine and did routine medical examinations of scientists and colonists.
@219/Jana: That doesn’t mean the more specialized types of ship didn’t exist, though. It meant that the Constitutions were operating on the deep frontier, so they often needed to take the place of support systems that were sparse or nonexistent on the fringes of civilization, even though they were more abundant closer to home. Those specialist ships were probably out there, but space is so immense that there would be no assurance that one of them would be in range of a world where they were needed, so the big multipurpose capital ships would often have to fill the void because they were the only ones close enough.
@220/Christopher: I’ve always assumed that operating in deep space was what 23rd century Starfleet was for, and support systems closer to home would be provided by other organisations. But I guess there isn’t any evidence for that.
I’d assume that there weren’t specialized diplomatic ships since the Enterprise was pressed into service to ferry delegates to Babel. They must not have had any extra quarters since Uhura had ro give hers to the Dohlman of Elas (in EoT) so I’d imagine that a significant percentage of the crew found themselves bunking down in the cargo bays in Journey to Babel. And that mission wasn’t out on the frontier since they picked up Sarek’s party at Vulcan, by definition one of the core worlds. And, as we later found out, only 16 light years from Earth and about a 4 day journey (according to TMP). Shuttling diplomats or any sort of passengers would appear to be something that the Constitutions really weren’t set up for.
@221/Jana: I think Discovery has given us proof that Starfleet does have a larger presence closer to home, because we’ve seen such a large fleet of different ship classes operating within the Federation and on its borders during the Klingon war, while in TOS we mostly just saw a handful of Constitution-class ships out on the deep frontier. Although the losses sustained in the war could also be a factor in why Starfleet seems to have fewer ships in TOS, and why the Enterprise sometimes needed to be called in for milk-run missions between Federation worlds.
On the other hand, I’ve long felt that something of the reverse was true in the 24th century. In “The Best of Both Worlds,” Starfleet could only muster 40 ships to hold off the Borg at Wolf 359, and the destruction of nearly all of those ships was portrayed as a major loss. But a few years later in the Dominion War, we routinely saw multiple fleets consisting of dozens of starships each, and the fleet as a whole seemed far larger. It’s hard to believe so many ships could’ve been built in such a short time. So I figure that in the 24th century, there’s a much higher ratio of starships out probing the depths of space to starships patrolling closer to home — which makes sense, since the Federation has become larger and more unified, the space more tame and civilized, so there’s less need for a large Starfleet presence there. I figured those multiple fleets comprising hundreds of ships were always out there, but too deep in space to reach the Federation core worlds in time to stop the Borg. But in the early months of the Dominion War, and perhaps in the earlier Klingon conflict leading up to it, Starfleet had time to call back more of those ships from the frontier and assemble a larger defense force.
In Court Martial we saw a chart that listed 10 ships in port at Starbase 11. Assuming that’s not wildly unusual, we can assume that there’s well over a hundred ships in various ports at any given time. And Discovery gave us Starbase 343 (Magic to Make the Sanest Man Go Mad) and The Alternative Factor mentioned Starbase 200 so there must be amy more bases than just the few that the Enterprise mentioned or visited.
Not to mention the ships we saw in one small section of Spacedock in TSFS.
@222/kkozoriz: Or the diplomats’ quarters were being rebuilt during “Elaan of Troyius”. Or they were considered too impersonal for Elaan. Perhaps a personal sacrifice (giving up one’s quarters) is part of the protocol for visiting leaders on Elas. I can think of half a dozen explanations off the top of my head.
@223-224: I like the idea of a small Starfleet operating in deep space in a dangerous, but basically peaceful galaxy. The Discovery writers don’t.
@225/Jana: Rather, the Discovery writers were given (by Bryan Fuller, before he was let go) the assignment of telling a story about a Federation-Klingon war, which necessarily requires a focus on Federation territory. I don’t think you can assume anything about their preferences based on that. We don’t yet know what they’ll do in season 2 now that that story is done, but they have said they want to focus more on exploration.
@225, I always assumed that Uhura was asked to offer her beautifully decorated quarters for the Dohlman because the bland guest quarters would have offended her.
There’s no reason for Uhura to give up her quarters. They could have made any sort of decorations for the Dohlman. If they can fabricate Nazi uniforms and other sorts of items that they wouldn’t carry in stores, they could decorate it any way that they want without Uhura being bumped. Heck, they could simply make copies of all of Uhura;s stuff. It’s not like Elaan would know the difference. And it has the advantage the Uhura’s property isn’t in danger of being damaged.
Good point. I guess the writers didn’t think of that. And yeah, I winced when Elaan threw Uhura’s stuff around. I hope she was compensated,.
225. JanaJansen – Or the diplomats’ quarters were being rebuilt during “Elaan of Troyius”. Or they were considered too impersonal for Elaan. Perhaps a personal sacrifice (giving up one’s quarters) is part of the protocol for visiting leaders on Elas. I can think of half a dozen explanations off the top of my head.\
In Journey to Babel, they had 114 delegates on board including 32 ambassadors. They took ALL the diplomatic quarters out of circulation at once?
And if the Elasians were looking for a sacrifice, you’d think that they’d want something a bit higher up the chain of command than a communications officer. Captain most likely or perhaps First Officer. You’d think that Kirk offering to give up quarters would go over better than simply asking or telling Uhura to give up hers.
Or, as I mentioned earlier, simply decorate another cabin to look like Uhura’s.
@230/kkozoriz: Uhura’s quarters are more cosy than Kirk’s. Kirk’s could easily be mistaken for a hotel room. Perhaps Kirk offered his quarters too, and a Troyian delegate picked Uhura’s. And perhaps a copy wouldn’t show the same kind of deference.
The whole thing may have been Petri’s idea. Perhaps he hoped that some of Uhura’s personality would rub off on Elaan.
Personally, I find any of my explanations for the inconsistency between the two episodes more plausible than yours. You’ll probably disagree. All the same, your explanation is only one among many, and you use it to jump to conclusions (“Shuttling diplomats or any sort of passengers would appear to be something the Constitutions really weren’t set up for”).
231. JanaJansen – They’ve got fabricators. They could decorate it any way they wanted. You’d think that there would be somebody with the diplomatic service that would ensure any quarters assigned to a high ranking visitor to a starship would be placed in appropriate quarters. “Jim, you’re going to be transporting the King of Bloog VI. Make sure there’s nothing purple in the room as that’s the Bloorgian colour of death.”.
How much of Uhura’s property did Elaan destroy? Sure, they could probably make a replicated copy but it wouldn’t be the same. How would Kirk feel if someone destroyed his Copy of Tale of Two Cities? It isn’t the text that makes it important. It’s the fact that Spock gave him that particular item that makes it special. Did Uhura have any family heirlooms in her quarters? Is she expected to leave those behind too?
Seeing as the layout of her quarters is exactly the same as Kirk or Spock’s, and her quarters appear to be in the same general area as theirs (i.e. – not down in the bowls of the ship) only the furnishings would be different. The idea that someone has to give up their quarters just strikes me as odd.
@232/kkozoriz: Yeah, it’s odd, and so is any explanation we can come up with. The episode simply isn’t very well written.
I like my Petri explanation. Petri is odd too, so I can totally see him fixate on the idea that they have to use Uhura’s quarters. Probably at the last possible moment too. And Uhura would be nice enough to be on board with it, unsuspecting that it could result in the destruction of her property.
@232, I get the impression from the exchange between Kirk and Uhura that her offering her own quarters was above and beyond the call of duty and she probably deserves a medal for it. WHY she did so admittedly doesn’t make a lot of sense. Petri going to the wrong deck and fixating on Uhura’s rooms is as good an explanation as any. I hope and trust she removed anything of sentimental value before Elaan moved in.
The only mention Uhura makes is the following:
UHURA: I gave up my quarters because I
KIRK: Yes, I appreciate your sacrifice, Lieutenant Uhura. I’ll talk to her myself.
She just says she “gave up her quarters” but it’s ambiguous enough that it can be taken either way. To me, it still sounds as if Uhura was bumped because of necessity. For all we know, a bunch of people ended up bunking in a cargo hold during Journey to Babel. Maybe the non-command officers (Kirk, Spock, Scotty & McCoy and perhaps a couple of others) keep their quarters and the rest of the crew get bumped as necessary and Uhura just happened to be at the top of the list this time. Much like Ben Finney was at the top of the list for the ion pod in Court Martial.
Kirk acknowledges it’s a sacrifice but doesn’t indicate if she offered or not. Being kicked out of your room for someone else would be a sacrifice either way.
@235/kkozoriz: “For all we know, a bunch of people ended up bunking in a cargo hold during Journey to Babel.”
They never mention it, so it must be true.
236. JanaJansen – I didn’t say it must be true. Please don’t put words in my mouth. I simply offer it as a possibility. According to the episode, there were 114 passengers. Either the Enterprise had enough quarters for them all or some of the crew had to make alternate arrangements. It would be easy enough to fabricate some bunk beds and blankets and a cargo bay is a large, open area. Unless the ship is basically a giant hotel, you’d need a way to make alternate arrangements. We’ve heard mention of sickbay making use of cargo bays in times of emergency so the idea isn’t unheard of. And crew quarters would require less support than a medical ward.
@237/kkozoriz: I’m sorry, I didn’t mean to offend you, it’s just that you had already said the same thing in comment #222.
Yes, it’s a possibility. Or they really have lots of guestrooms, or a large multi-purpose area where they can set up lots of guestrooms on demand. In “This Side of Paradise”, Kirk tells Sandoval that they’ll have accomodations for his people aboard the Enterprise. So the situation isn’t unique to “Journey to Babel”.
But that doesn’t mean that they have extra quarters available. He could still be talking about bumping crew members or even putting Sandoval’s people in a cargo bay.
As we saw in The Undiscovered Country, there’s crew members sleeping in bunks 20 years after TOS. Not a stretch to consider that quarters like we saw for Kirk, Spock, Scotty and Uhura are actually the exception and not the rule.
@239/kkozoriz: There’s also Ensign Garrovick’s quarters in “Obsession”.
I like The Undiscovered Country, but it has to be taken with a ton of salt. Didn’t it even have a guy who swept the floor? With Nicholas Meyer, the future always looks like the past. We can count ourselves lucky that he didn’t introduce hammocks for the crew.
The floor sweeper was in TWOK and somebody has to clean up. And he’s there regardless of what we think of it. Same with the bunks. Or any of the other things that makes no sense. It’s on the screen, it’s part of it. I’m not a fan of Sarek advocating for planetary genocide or for Harry Mudd going from loveable rogue to mass murdered but that’s what we’ve got now.
You guys been talking about housing for awhile? What about Burnham and Tilly’s accommodations on Discovery? They’re practically the size of a cargo hold. The star of the show gets a bigger room than the captain, apparently. Unless, they did put Tilly in a cargo hold…
@241/kkozoriz: I hope that it won’t take two hundred years to invent some kind of automatic cleaning system.
When something makes no sense, I ignore it. If I tried to incorporate every blunder, it would no longer feel like a plausible world.
@242/Sunspear: Apparently space isn’t a concern on a spaceship.
@242 Yet more reasons to just treat STD like an expensive fanfilm and not canon.
@243 Jana: I see what you did there…
244. random22 – I count it all as happening. When things contradict, I just assume we’re seeing a version from a parallel universe. Everything happens pretty much as we saw on TOS/TAS until something contradicts it. James R Kirk, for example. Somewhere, Kirk’s mother said “Tiberius? You can’t be serious. We’re using Robert. End of discussion”. Or the episode of DS9 where the Eugenics wars happened in the 2100’s. Or, as we saw in Discovery, where Sarek advocated for genocide and Harry Mudd is a murderer. They all fit, just not in the same timeline. Which is why the whole idea of a Prime Universe is nonsense.
Coming in late:
Such numbers as we have are definitely problematic. The Enterprise‘s stated crew complement is 430, and whereas it’s not a cramped vessel, as a general purpose ship it won’t have been designed with a lot of surplus passenger space. Housing a group of 114 delegates in addition to a full crew would put occupancy at a bit over 125% normal capacity, and if that number of “delegates” omits personal guests or support personnel (does it include Amanda, for instance?), the figure could be as high as 140%.
To accommodate that number of extra people, a rationally designed spaceship is going to need to pack people in wherever they darned well can, including crew quarters and cargo bays. Note too that this would be more of a challenge for the TOS-era Enterprise than for its markedly roomier TNG-era counterpart, which is explicitly designed to accommodate families. In that situation, I would also expect Engineering to be putting in hours on boosting life support systems to maximum efficiency, because accommodating that kind of passenger load for anything more than very brief periods — by which I mean hours as opposed to days — is going to put a lot of stress on life support.
With benefit of hindsight, the easier bit of script doctoring would have been to reduce the number of delegates to 40 or 50 — still a stretch of the ship’s resources, but a more manageable one. If one had wanted to stick to the 114-delegate number, plot logic strongly suggests that there should have been a smaller escort ship along for the ride, providing protection both for all those diplomats and from the odd Romulan or Klingon who might have been tempted by such a juicy target. (That, of course, would have had the marked disadvantage of shifting focus away from Kirk in the space-battle parts of the episode….)
////
On the subject of relative sizes of “the Fleet” in the TOS and TNG eras, it occurs to me that one subject that’s always been fuzzy in filmed Trek (and even in the majority of the novels) is the question of how and whether Starfleet — the space agency of the Federation as a whole — interacts with and/or manages the spacefleets of individual Federation member worlds and civilizations. One gets the impression that in Kirk’s time, the Federation is still relatively small in absolute terms, with perhaps a few dozen member worlds, at least a few of which may have been colonized from Earth. By contrast, though I don’t think we ever get an actual count, the Federation in Picard’s time acts like a significantly larger organization, one that may have as many as several hundred member worlds and at least a handful of member cultures with populations scattered across several planets and/or solar systems (explicitly including the Vulcans, for instance).
For a smaller Federation (such as the TOS model suggests) it would make sense for Starfleet to be managing most of the functions of all Federation space activity, integrating its member fleets into a single combined hierarchy. A larger TNG-era Federation, by contrast, might be more inclined to let member worlds maintain and manage their own fleets for day to day operational needs, reserving Starfleet and its ships for Federation-wide services and missions. That said, Discovery — referring to the series, not the ship — somewhat complicates this theory; if TOS-era Starfleet has been formed partially by shoving all the member spacefleets under one chain of command, there should probably be more variation in ship and uniform design than we’ve actually seen..
@247/John: In First Contact, Picard said that the Federation had over 150 members, which actually sounds smaller than how TNG portrayed it. I assume he meant full members rather than colonies, protectorates, etc. (He also said they were “spread across 8000 light-years,” which makes no sense. If that were a diameter, there would be hundreds of millions of stars within that volume and a mere 150 would be almost homeopathically diffuse. But 8000 cubic light-years would be a sphere only 12.4 LY across, which is way too small and would only have room for 30-odd stars, only a few of which could be habitable.)
“Journey to Babel” said there were 32 ambassadors out of 114 delegates, which suggests that 32 member worlds were represented. It’s unclear whether that’s a quorum of UFP worlds or just the ones with a stake in the Coridan debate. For what it’s worth, there didn’t seem to be an Earth ambassador included. If there were one, you’d expect them to be closer to the center of the episode’s attention.
Earth may be the Federation equivalent of a federal district with no government beyond loacl representation. Remember how in TVH that it was Sarek that suggested issuing a planetary distress call and it was the Federation President that issued the call, not an Earth representative. Perhaps the price earth pays for hosting the Federation government including Starfleet. It may be a way the Federation uses to keep Earth from having too much power.
“A federal district is a type of administrative division of a federation, usually under the direct control of a federal government and organized sometimes with a single municipal body. Federal districts often include capital districts, and they exist in various countries worldwide.”
Federal District
News for season 2:
Producers fired
Both Harberts and Berg have been fired for alleged abusive behavior in the writers’ room. Alex Kutzman, co-creator, will take over. Sounds awkward since the two former showrunners are expected to finish the episode they’re working on, number 5.
This on top of Akiva Goldsman not returning in season 2 because of clashes with the writers’ room.
So what’s going on here? Have the writers become all-powerful on this show? I’m all for that if it leads to better, more coherent storytelling.
@250/Sunspear: “Have the writers become all-powerful on this show?”
What are you talking about? Series television has been a writer-driven medium for decades. Showrunners are writer-producers who have risen through the ranks in writers’ rooms and reached the point of being in charge of their own shows. All the people you mentioned in your post are writer-producers who have previously served on TV writing staffs under senior writer-producers, although Goldsman is mainly a feature film writer.
Alex Kurtzman, for instance, started out as an intern and staff writer on Hercules and Xena with his partner Roberto Orci, working under showrunner Rob Tapert, IIRC. They rose through those shows’ ranks until they became their showrunners in their final seasons, simultaneously created and showran the Bruce Campbell comedy Jack of All Trades, then worked under showrunner J.J. Abrams on Alias, then co-created Fringe with Abrams and co-ran its first season, etc. Now Kurtzman has become the head of his own production company that produces multiple shows. He’s usually the guy above the individual showrunners, the one they answer to, but apparently the loss of Berg and Harberts has required him to get more hands-on with this specific show, much like how Andrew Kreisberg’s firing from Supergirl and The Flash last year led his superior Greg Berlanti to take a more hands-on role again on those shows.
#250
Apparently the showrunners were being jerks. So maybe they got fired for being jerks. I don’t know, if that’s the reason then the industry has a lot of cleaning to do.
@CLB: “What are you talking about?”
Ahem. (clears throat) Sometimes I despair about you ever developing a sense of humor. But if you need it spelled out, I was being facetious. I have also been facetious in the past and have pointed it out, which should be an indicator of how I express myself.
Perhaps emojis would help here. Admittedly tone is hard to convey in text alone. Maybe adding a “/f” the way people add “/s” to convey sarcasm to those prone to reading things literally.
So, the writers’ room s clearly being protected as a valuable asset of the show. Enough so that even their immediate bosses, be they former writers or current producers, are not allowed to abuse them. (no /s or /f)
@253/Sunspear: Well, Analog has bought six stories in my Hub SF comedy series to date, so I have no worries about my own sense of humor. What you said just wasn’t funny.
Boys, boys, no need for the kerfuffle. The command has changed but the ship is still going. It’s all cool in Treksville.
I’ve had my complaints, sure, but now I’m gonna go out on a limb… Season 2 is going to be fantastic. Don’t ask me how I know this. Just trust my crystal ball. It’s… full of spores. :-)
@CLB: “What you said just wasn’t funny.”
Wasn’t serious either. And didn’t require a lecture after.
More news: Apparently Kurtzman has a new five year deal (mission?) to produce five new ST series. Including:
-a series set at Starfleet Academy
-an animated series
-a limited series about Khan
-another limited series which may bring back Picard in a TNG sequel
rumored new ST series
The Picard one interests me most. (yes, there are 4 bullet points and five projects mentioned)
(note: no hyperbole this time, so I should be safe from… you know)
Keith, what do you know about the suit against CBS for plagiarizing that video game? Sorry, don’t remember the title. I read an article about it, and it sure sounds like the producers behind DISCOVERY ripped it off, what with the mycelial network and spore drive and the fact that it all derives from a “space creature.”
I have a sneaking suspicion/idea that is the reason “Executive Producers and showrunners Aaron Harberts and Gretchen J. Berg are exiting ‘Star Trek: Discovery’,’ as the VARIETY headline put it.
Get rid of the evidence, so to speak?
@258/mindyp51: Nuisance plagiarism lawsuits are an unfortunate fact of life in the entertainment industry. Whenever anything is successful, someone who’s created something coincidentally and remotely similar will try to sue its creators in hopes of making a lot of money. This looks like just another such frivolous lawsuit. Okay, so two works of fiction featured sci-fi versions of tardigrades within a few years of each other, and both connected them to some sort of space drive. That’s no surprise, because there’s been a lot of science reporting in the past decade about tardigrades’ remarkable durability, their evolutionary weirdness, and how they could even potentially survive drifting through space, lending credence to the panspermia hypothesis that microscopic life could spread from planet to planet. So the idea of “tardigrades = space travel” has been osmosing through pop culture for at least a decade, and thus it’s natural, even inevitable, that more than one work of science fiction would extrapolate from that, whether by merely creating an alien species that looked like giant tardigrades (as Netflix’s Voltron: Legendary Defender has done) or by positing that said species had some kind of innate star-travel power.
Anyway, this guy’s game sounds very different from Discovery — it’s set 20,000 years in the past, for one thing. And most of his claim of plagiarism is based on the fact that his game includes a black woman and an interracial gay couple. Seriously??? Come on, you can’t make a copyright claim to an entire ethnic group or gender. The lawsuit is absurd, and none of the major Trek or media news sites are taking it seriously, from what I can tell.
Well, while the rest of the world is happily reflecting on Discovery Season 2, I’ve just got around to watching Season 1 on DVD. It’s like the good old days when I’d read reviews of DS9, Voyager or Enterprise in genre magazines and then it’d be two years before any UK terrestial channel got around to showing them.
Spock once claimed it was more difficult for a barbarian pretending to be a civilised man than a civilised man to pretend to be a barbarian. But whereas both Spocks figured they’d got the wrong Kirk back within an episode, it turns out Lorca was actually really good at fitting in, in a series where the Federation gives a life sentence to a guilt-ridden mutineer who’s not going to defend herself because they need a scapegoat for a magnificent tactical blunder, and hands a starship over to an evil tyrant so she can commit genocide.
Yes, let’s talk about Burnham’s sentence. WTF was that? It felt written by committee and lurching from one extreme to another. So she gets a life sentence for assaulting a superior officer and giving an illegal order that wasn’t obeyed anyway. (I’m still unsure why it was illegal: Because she’d usurped the proper authority or because Starfleet is dumb enough to think you’re not allowed to fire on a heavily armed ship that’s invaded your space. I’m not saying you should but you should definitely be allowed to!) And then they hit a reset button at the end and give her her rank back? Sure, parole her, let her stay on Discovery, maybe even give her a commission. But making her a commander again just because she made an inspirational speech without mentioning gazelles? (And when she’s demonstrated she still has a tendency to make stupid emotional decisions in crisis situations by bringing Evil Mirror Georgiou home with her.) I don’t know what that was about, why they didn’t give her a sentence more fitting the crime and more likely to be overturned for good behaviour, why they didn’t have her actually open fire if they wanted to blame the war on her (it felt like an awkward compromise between wanting her to be wrong, but not that wrong), or whether this was all a relic from the original idea where Burnham was just meant to be the star of the first season rather than them having to find a way to still have her around in season two.
I’m slightly disappointed Lorca when down the Gul Dukat route, taking an interesting complex character who could be on the side of good without being a white hat, and then turning him into Pure Evil. It really doesn’t say much for Burnham that she decides the guy she’s been working with for months is the bad guy who needs to be stopped (would he really have been a worse emperor than Georgiou?) while saving someone she’s known for a couple of days and who just murdered an unarmed prisoner in front of her because she looks like someone else. (And because she’s played by Michelle Yeoh and someone regretted killing her in Episode 2?) Plus the whole portrayal of the Mirror Universe as a xenophobic human-only society, when every other episode has featured non-humans as senior officers, left me thinking someone got the Empire from the wrong franchise starting with Star. Is Mirror Spock already on the ISS Enterprise while his daddy’s off leading the rebels? I’m tempted to ponder whether this makes Georgiou a descendant of Hoshi Sato…but to be honest, I doubt any Terran Empress lives long enough to hand the role over to their chosen successor.
And it is hard to get outraged about Lorca abandoning Mudd with their mutual captors rather than taking him back to the Federation for trial when that’s what Kirk did in “I, Mudd”, except that was a bunch of comedy androids rather than the Klingons and it was played for laughs. I’m more bothered about Stella being played by an actress seemingly decades younger and significantly more attractive. Either the next ten years are going to be really tough on her or Mudd’s android copy was nothing like her.
Ooh, positives. Because I did enjoy the series even though it had some deep flaws. The cast are essentially likeable and, at least as far as the ones on the main titles go, manage to be pretty distinctive, with Saru and Tilly being the stand-outs. The series tested Ben Sisko’s old axiom of “It’s easy to be a saint in paradise” and found the Federation wanting on occasions while allowing the old Star Trek theme of the basic decency of its main crew winning through. I am hoping I’ll get to see Season 2 sooner rather than later and I am happy to have this in the Star Trek canon. We are Starfleet!
@260/cap-mjb: “I’m slightly disappointed Lorca when down the Gul Dukat route, taking an interesting complex character who could be on the side of good without being a white hat, and then turning him into Pure Evil.”
Like I’ve said before, he was always pure evil, and the signs were pretty blatant — torturing the tardigrade, abandoning Mudd to Klingon prison, refusing to rescue Admiral Cornwell from Klingon captivity. We just wanted to believe he was more nuanced than he was, so we fooled ourselves into seeing an ambiguity that was never, ever there. He did one reprehensible thing after another and we kept inventing excuses for him. Ohh, he’s just hardened by past traumas, he’s making the tough choices in a war, he’s just pretending to be mean to the crew to motivate them, etc. But those were all just the excuses the writers convinced us to make for him. They fooled us into seeing an ambiguity that was never really there, and it’s less embarrassing for us to pretend they changed the writing of the character than it is to admit that they succeeded in fooling us.
“Plus the whole portrayal of the Mirror Universe as a xenophobic human-only society, when every other episode has featured non-humans as senior officers”
You’re forgetting “In a Mirror, Darkly,” which also portrayed nonhumans as second-class citizens within the Empire. Yes, there were Vulcan officers, but they were treated with contempt, and the resistance was led by Vulcans and other nonhumans.
Besides, since Emperor Georgiou was overthrown at the end of this arc, it’s easy enough to imagine that her racist policies were not continued by her successor, so that things had changed by the time of “Mirror, Mirror” a decade later.
“I’m more bothered about Stella being played by an actress seemingly decades younger and significantly more attractive.”
No worse than Rainn Wilson being a couple of decades older than Roger C. Carmel was in TOS, even though he’s playing a Mudd who’s a decade younger. (Carmel was actually younger than Shatner.)
“or Mudd’s android copy was nothing like her.”
That almost goes without saying. She was a caricature of how Mudd chose to remember her, demonizing her so he’d feel blameless in their breakup. Why would Harry be more honest with himself than he is with everyone else?
@261 “We just wanted to believe he was more nuanced than he was, so we fooled ourselves into seeing an ambiguity that was never, ever there. He did one reprehensible thing after another and we kept inventing excuses for him”
You mean like Burnham did with Sarek after he plotted to exterminate every living thing on the Klingon homeworld? “Oh, he’s her dad and they’ve grown closer to each other. All is forgiven”
We’re all willing to overlook the most egregious transgressions by those we like.
@261/CLB: No, I hadn’t forgotten “In a Mirror Darkly”. Yes, non-humans are treated like second class citizens, but not to the extent of being eaten or being entirely absent from the senior echelons. Mirror-Forrest didn’t seem to treat his non-human officers any differently, Mirror-Archer made Mirror-T’Pol his first officer without much comment. I guess you could argue that the rebellion in that episode led to a hardening of attitudes, but while that’s believable, non-humans going from slaves to officers of equal standing in a decade is less so. “In a Mirror Darkly” and “Mirror Mirror” portray the non-human regulars’ counterparts as not that different in terms of standing than their mainline counterparts, Discovery portrays Saru as the entrée. Again, where was Mirror Spock when all this was going on? (Possible explanation: I recall the Dark Passions MU novels have Troi and Torres among the Alliance higher echelons and explain their mixed heritage by saying their human fathers were their mothers’ Terran slaves. Maybe the Empire had a similar arrangement? It’d explain why Mirror Sarek’s so sore.)
As mentioned above, Sarek and Cornwell do things just as bad as Lorca if not worse, but they’re not dismissed as “pure evil”. I still don’t quite understand why Lorca abandoning Mudd is presented as such a big deal: What else was he meant to do? It’s like people turned off the episode at that point and missed the fact that Lorca and Tyler then had to fight their way off a ship full of Klingons and flee back to Discovery under fire in a ship that only seemed to accommodate two. Are they meant to have done that with Mudd in tow? It might have been cold but it was also thoroughly pragmatic. “Evil” Captain Lorca seems no different from the Captain Janeway of later Voyager, who fired on Tom Paris’ ship with the intent to kill him, gleefully abandoned the Think Tank to be killed, left a Starfleet crewmember to be potentially killed by a hostile alien and fired on a non-hostile ship because it wouldn’t talk to her. Did she get replaced by her evil MU counterpart on the journey home? Turning Lorca into the Big Bad who needed to be stopped seemed an overreaction by both the show and the characters, as well as underlining the hypocrisy of the show’s central message that (nearly) firing first at the Klingons gets you a life sentence but firing first at Lorca gets you a medal. Burnham lowering her phaser becomes significantly less noble when you realise that if Evil Mirror Georgiou hadn’t intervened, Lorca would have just been killed with everyone else on the ship when Discovery blew them up, without any real attempt to make contact, negotiate or ask them if they wouldn’t mind awfully just turning their super-engine off before it destroyed the multiverse.
@263/cap-mjb: “Possible explanation: I recall the Dark Passions MU novels have Troi and Torres among the Alliance higher echelons and explain their mixed heritage by saying their human fathers were their mothers’ Terran slaves. Maybe the Empire had a similar arrangement?”
Hmm, I don’t think that works. In “Mirror, Mirror” Spock told Sulu: “I suggest you remember that my operatives would avenge my death and some of them are Vulcans”, implying that Vulcans are feared. Would they be feared if they had been slaves only a decade earlier?
JanaJansen: Vulcans are feared in that context because of their physical prowess, which has nothing to do with their social status.
—Keith R.A. DeCandido
@263/cap-mjb: But “Mirror, Darkly” is a century before the Discovery arc. It’s easy enough to believe that the second-class status of nonhumans got worse over time, that by the time of DSC it had escalated to full-on human supremacism, which was then dismantled once the Georgiou regime fell.
” non-humans going from slaves to officers of equal standing in a decade is less so.”
Except we’re talking about an empire, not a democracy. Replacing one emperor with another who held different values could lead to a pretty drastic change in policy. Heck, you don’t even need an emperor, just a president who mistakes himself for one and a legislature unwilling to assert otherwise, as we’ve seen with the drastic reversals in US government policy over just the past three years.
“As mentioned above, Sarek and Cornwell do things just as bad as Lorca if not worse, but they’re not dismissed as “pure evil”.”
The point is the context, the pattern. Sarek’s and Cornwell’s choices were exceptions forced by circumstances. We wanted to believe that Lorca’s choices were the same — even I made that mistake at the time, as you can see by revisiting my comments in the season 1 review threads — but looking at the overall pattern in retrospect, Lorca’s choices are consistently bad. They’re the norm for him rather than the exception. We found rationalizations for each individual bad act, but cumulatively they demonstrate a consistent pattern of inhumane, self-serving, and unethical behavior, and that consistency knocks our rationalizations out of the water.
So once again: They did not retroactively “turn” Lorca into the Big Bad. They were showing us from his very first episode that he was a bad guy, but they did it in such a way that played into our assumption that a Starfleet captain who went that dark had to be a decent person driven to dark choices by the exigencies of war. They had him do things that were ambiguous, that might have been due to being a bad guy or due to being a flawed and pragmatic good guy, and we chose to favor the latter interpretation because we preferred it, but it turned out to have been the former all along. They didn’t change how they wrote him, they just made his true nature a mystery and let us misdirect ourselves. If a story spends most of its length making you think a suspect is innocent and then they turn out to be guilty, or if it makes you think it’s on another planet and it turns out to have been Earth all along, or if it portrays a character as a superhero’s mentor only to have them turn out to have been the archvillain from the start, that doesn’t mean the writers changed their minds, it means they successfully misdirected you.
@264/Jana: “Would they be feared if they had been slaves only a decade earlier?”
Hell, yeah, if they were free now and vindictive about it.
For that matter, part of the racist narrative that justified the enslavement of Africans or the subjugation of native populations in India, the Americas, etc. was that they were violent savages who needed to be strictly regulated and tamed for the safety of white people, and for “their own good.” Making people afraid of another population is part and parcel of racist propaganda, because they won’t be as likely to empathize with them or care about their rights if they’re convinced to see them as a threat.
@266 I could see someone saying “and some of them are Gurkhas” quite easily.
@265-267: Yep, I can definitely see Vulcans as the Empire’s Gurkhas. Nice comparison.
However, the suggestion I responded to was that Spock might have gotten his job because of his mixed heritage, because Sarek was Amanda’s slave. There are degrees of subjugation, and I don’t think the dangerous, violent savages who are looked down upon, but also somewhat admired can be the same people as the barely human beings you own and do with as you please. Any counterexamples?
@268/Jana: Two points:
1) The phenomenon of the African slave trade and its basis in the concept of race is historically the exception to the norm for slave cultures. In most slave cultures, slavery was not about the ethnicity of the slaves, but more about class and political power, or about who conquered whom, or about punishment for crimes, or whatever. Someone who started out as a slave could earn their freedom and become an accepted member of society. In some cultures, slaves led armies and founded their own dynasties while still technically being slaves to a higher power back in the homeland. The idea of slaves belonging to a subhuman race that could never be anything but slaves was pretty much invented to justify the horrifically murderous working conditions of plantation slavery in the Americas, conditions that nobody would tolerate seeing humans subjected to, so it became necessary for the plantation owners to invent modern racism and the myth that some ethnicities were less human than others. So that was specific to that particular iteration of slavery in that historical context. In a different culture and era, slaves wouldn’t necessarily be defined as mere animals (although clearly the Kelpiens were, at least).
2) Even in the Americas, there were free black people as well as enslaved ones. It wasn’t universal. Attitudes could vary depending on the individual and the region within the country.
@269/Christopher: Sure, but the Mirror Empire, as redefined by Enterprise and Discovery, seems to be similarly racist. (I don’t think there’s any basis for that in “Mirror, Mirror”.)
Were there free black people in the early US or only further south? (This doesn’t have anything to do with our discussion, I’m just curious.)
@261/CLB: “No worse than Rainn Wilson being a couple of decades older than Roger C. Carmel was in TOS, even though he’s playing a Mudd who’s a decade younger. (Carmel was actually younger than Shatner.)”
Having spent far too much time thinking about this: I think this could be the human equivalent of the tech update. Whatever the actor’s chronological age, Carmel’s Mudd was basically portrayed as middle aged. An actor in his 30s in 1966 might have been regarded as middle aged, and in modern terms, an actor in his 50s probably looks about the same. (Cf William Hartnell’s First Doctor being viewed as an old man in 1966, despite the actor being in his 50s, and the modern series casting David Bradley, an actor in his 70s, as him at the same age.) Casting an actress half his age as his wife when their TOS counterparts seemed to be around the same age made it stand out.
@264/JanaJansen, @267/CLB:
I agree it’s easy to believe things could get worse in the century between “In a Mirror Darkly” and the Discovery arc (especially with at least one, probably two, rebellions by the underclass), but I still find the shift from an Empire where the only non-humans on view are slaves and rebels (yes, just like Star Wars) to one where a mixed race officer is one step away from captain and two away from commander-in-chief in a decade hard to visualise. I think it might actually be harder to implement reforms in an evil empire than in a democracy, especially when that empire stays evil afterwards. Reforms by consensus have a good chance of sticking (the UK’s gone from it being perfectly legal to discriminate over sexuality to basically equal rights in a similar timeframe), a new dictator announcing unpopular policies is likely to get assassinated and replaced by someone taking the popular view pretty quickly. That said, I’m not sure I liked my explanation that much either so:
Second possible explanation: Vulcans aren’t treated as badly as Kelpiens (and not just because they don’t taste as nice), there are Vulcan loyalists in Starfleet fighting for Emperor Georgiou against the rebels, we just don’t see them. (In the same way that the Jacobite Rebellions didn’t actually have all the English on one side and all the Scottish on the other, even though that’s how fiction tends to portray them.) This though seems to contradict the spirit if not the letter of the Discovery arc.
Third possible explanation: Did the rebellion actually succeed? By the end of the Discovery arc, Georgiou and Lorca’s factions are both pretty much wiped out so, assuming enough of them survived “The Wolf Inside”, it’s possible that a group of Vulcans, Andorians, Tellarites and Terran sympathisers might be the best placed to step into the power vacuum. If they then rejected the Klingons who’d been sponsoring them and became the leaders of a regime just as brutal as Georgiou’s but with more diversity, that may explain why the Klingons moved on to outright conquest rather than supporting an internal revolution. Is this why they’re no longer the “Terran Empire” in “Mirror Mirror”?
@271/cap-mjb: “An actor in his 30s in 1966 might have been regarded as middle aged”
Uhh… Again, Carmel was a year or so younger than William Shatner. Shatner was not considered middle-aged by any means. Kirk was the virile hero in his prime. The background material called him the youngest starship captain in Starfleet history.
“Cf William Hartnell’s First Doctor being viewed as an old man in 1966, despite the actor being in his 50s”
While it’s true that Hartnell’s own health was in a sorry state thanks to heavy drinking and smoking and such, he was playing the character as significantly older than himself, wearing a long white wig and using a cane. His elderly persona onscreen was not typical of how 55-year-olds were perceived at the time — more like 65-70.
“I still find the shift from an Empire where the only non-humans on view are slaves and rebels (yes, just like Star Wars) to one where a mixed race officer is one step away from captain and two away from commander-in-chief in a decade hard to visualise.”
The United States went directly from having a black president to having a white supremacist president. I’m no longer skeptical that a society can change radically in such a short time. There are always going to be conflicting factions coexisting in a given society, pushing for opposing views of how the society should work, and if the group that’s been out of power for a while ends up taking power, they’ll do all they can to undo the previous status quo in favor of their own.
“a new dictator announcing unpopular policies is likely to get assassinated and replaced by someone taking the popular view pretty quickly.”
Yes, but the simplest thing is to assume that it was Georgiou’s human supremacism that was the unpopular extreme, and that in her absence, the Empire returns to its more normal status quo.
“Vulcans aren’t treated as badly as Kelpiens”
I think that’s likely, and would also go for Andorians, Tellarites, etc. After all, the Kelpiens were treated as food animals by their Ba’ul masters. So when the Empire first discovered Kaminar, they would’ve been told that Kelpiens were docile livestock bred for slaughter, and would have treated them accordingly. That wouldn’t have been the case with other species.
“Did the rebellion actually succeed?”
Yes, that’s what I’ve been assuming all along.
@272/CLB
“Uhh… Again, Carmel was a year or so younger than William Shatner. Shatner was not considered middle-aged by any means. Kirk was the virile hero in his prime. The background material called him the youngest starship captain in Starfleet history.”
Okay, possibly bad phrasing. What I really meant was that it might be easier for an actor in his 30s to pass as middle-aged. Regardless of the respective ages of the actors, Mudd is not portrayed as a virile young villain or a contemporary of Kirk, he’s portrayed as a lecherous older man.
“Yes, but the simplest thing is to assume that it was Georgiou’s human supremacism that was the unpopular extreme, and that in her absence, the Empire returns to its more normal status quo.”
Possibly, except that the struggle between Georgiou and Lorca is basically portrayed as two groups of human supremacists battling each other, suggesting that’s something that even deadly enemies agree on. (And is another black mark against the show’s portrayal of Lorca: Fine, he’s an MU refugee manipulating the Discovery’s crew to get home, but why not make him the lesser evil whose experience with the Federation would make him a slightly more moderate emperor, rather than a Designated Villain who’s even worse than Georgiou, er, somehow? Oh, because then we couldn’t get Michelle Yeoh back…) It’s even made out that Georgiou is deposed because she’s not brutal to non-humans enough!
@273/cap-mjb: Lecherous, yes, but I don’t think Mudd as scripted had to be “older” — there are plenty of lecherous young men. It’s just that they happened to cast a prematurely balding guy who looked older than he was, and so that’s made us think Harry was older, even though the writing doesn’t really specify.
“It’s even made out that Georgiou is deposed because she’s not brutal to non-humans enough!”
Well, yeah, there’s always someone who thinks that even the extremists aren’t extreme enough. Presumably it’s a spectrum, with Lorca at the farthest extreme, Georgiou just kind of extreme, and her successors somewhat more moderate.
You know, I can’t really complain too much about characters making stupid decisions regarding people who look like their dead love ones… because I have no idea how I would actually react in that position. None of us do. It’s not that they “remind them” of their loved ones: they look exactly the same, and probably sound very much like them, move like them, smell like them, etc.
Starfleet Prime doesn’t seem to have any problem with Georgiou. Pike made it pretty clear that he knows exactly who she is so it doesn’t seem to be much of a secret. If you can ignore a homicidal maniac enough to work with them and put them in a division of your organization that deals with dirty tricks, you really don’t have any moral high ground to stand on.
@276/kkozoriz: Yeah, I was surprised that this didn’t cause a bigger outcry.
@276. kkozoriz: “If you can ignore a homicidal maniac enough to work with them and put them in a division of your organization that deals with dirty tricks, you really don’t have any moral high ground to stand on.”
That’s essentially what Legion is doing in its season 3.
@277. Jana: this may be likely because Michelle Yeoh is popular and viewers want to see her kicking ass, regardless of the implications of her character.
The fact that Starfleet is willing to use a genocidal tyrant like her is one of my main gripes about Discovery. Still, my balance regarding the show continues to be positive.
@@@@@ 269 Christopher L Bennett:
“The idea of slaves belonging to a subhuman race that could never be anything but slaves was pretty much invented to justify the horrifically murderous working conditions of plantation slavery in the Americas, conditions that nobody would tolerate seeing humans subjected to, so it became necessary for the plantation owners to invent modern racism and the myth that some ethnicities were less human than others. So that was specific to that particular iteration of slavery in that historical context.”
I rather doubt that; slavery in Graeco-Roman antiquity could be incredibly brutal. Mine slavery, for example, was highly lethal. And Aristotle did discuss the notion that some people were “natural slaves.”…
From what I’ve read, ideas regarding “racialized slavery” probably had more to do with the expansion of civil rights in the West. When slavery is a universal possibility (allowing for adverse circumstances, anyone can be a slave), there is little need for theories of racial hierarchy. Once slavery becomes firmly racialized, however, people need some kind of ideological rational for why one group is uniquely vulnerable.
@@@@@270:”Were there free black people in the early US or only further south? (This doesn’t have anything to do with our discussion, I’m just curious.)”
Yes, there were free Blacks in the early US. There were even free Blacks in slave states like Virginia.
@@@@@272 Christopher L Bennett:”The United States went directly from having a black president to having a white supremacist president. I’m no longer skeptical that a society can change radically in such a short time.”
To go for the obvious example, compare the status of Jews in Germany in 1929 vs 1939….
I just finished the 4th season of Discovery and it was far better than the first. I am with you — the plotting was so disjointed it felt like two seasons crammed into one. The season started with the Klingon War and then it was suddenly forgotten to begin the Mirror Universe story without us having any resolution to the war first.
You can tell it was written by two completely different crews. It’s like a new writing crew was hired and they didn’t like the Klingon War story so they just nixed it suddenly.
I think Discovery had a problem which has become very common in contemporary TV — way too many cooks in the kitchen. There were just way too many directors and writers involved this season. The best shows have no more than 4-5 writers and directors. That gives the show more consistency and flow.
No, the change in writing staffs happened right at the beginning, pretty much right after the first episode. The Mirror Universe arc was written under the same showrunners as the Klingon War arc; they simply made a conscious choice to split the season into two arcs, perhaps because there was a hiatus planned to occur in the middle of the season. I agree the digression into the Mirror Universe didn’t work well, but it wasn’t because of a change in staffs.
I don’t think it follows that a show loses consistency with a larger staff. After all, the entire staff breaks (conceives and outlines) every episode together as a group before one writer or team is assigned to write the script, then the entire staff has input on the revision process of a script, and the showrunner does the final rewrite of every script to give them all a consistent voice. And the purpose of a writers’ room is not just about the scripts; it’s about cultivating new writers and giving them the training and experience to rise through the producer ranks and eventually become showrunners. The modern trend of shrinking writers’ rooms is hurtful to the industry because it reduces writers’ opportunities to gain experience. It’s more about execs wanting to save money than any creative advantage.
As for directors, you may have a point there to an extent; but on the other hand, it’s become a common practice in the industry for a show to have a “producing director,” a director who’s given executive producer status as a permanent member of the staff and oversees the other directors to keep the tone and style consistent, similarly to how the showrunner keeps the writers’ approach consistent. I believe Olatunde Osunsanmi fills that role on Discovery.
My work experience has shown me it’s easier to be consistent when you have a smaller staff contributing. If you have 20 different writers doing 20 different episodes, it’s obvious there is a staff problem.
Imagine a restaurant with a different chef every night of the week. Same idea.
Your analogy doesn’t work. The showrunner is the chef. The writers’ room is the kitchen staff preparing the individual dishes under the chef’s guidance. The larger the workload, the more staffers you need to pull it off effectively. But they’re all answering to the same boss, working toward the same menu.
And “20 different writers doing 20 different episodes” is a strawman. It’s a nonexistent situation, so it’s nonsensical to argue against it. Even back in the days when TV was episodic and largely freelancer-driven, you’d usually have a few regular staffers doing multiple episodes each, and a freelancer might be brought back more than once in a season (e.g. Paul Schneider doing both “Balance of Terror” and “The Squire of Gothos” in season 1 of TOS). More recently, if you look at most shows from the days when seasons were around 22-26 episodes, the permanent writing staffs who did most of the writing were typically around 6-8 people.
Sure, for today’s shorter seasons, a smaller staff could handle the same workload, but again, it’s shortsighted to think that writers’ rooms are only about the immediate script load, rather than about training the creators and producers of future shows. Part of the reason for the writers’ strike last year was that the short seasons and short-term writers’ rooms of the streaming era have made it profoundly difficult for writers to make a living in the industry anymore and effectively destroyed the training process that used to exist (look at how a whole generation of showrunners came out of the TNG staff, the DS9 staff, the Hercules/Xena staff, the Buffy/Angel staff). The scripts a writer is assigned to write for one show are their training for producing and creating future shows. But the showrunner is still the one who assigns scripts to that writer and rewrites them to make sure they fit the show’s style and continuity.
The cliche about the serial killer whom everyone thought was such a nice person is a cliche for a reason.
On the contrary, given what we know about mass shooters and domestic abuse tactics, I’d not count as unrealistic. Cliche but not unrealistic
I remember coming away from this season six years ago thinking it was pretty good, despite the overwhelming criticism it received from some fans for playing fast and loose with both aesthetics and continuity, and having just finished rewatching it for the first time, I have to say I enjoyed it even more.
None of the individual episodes rose to the level of classics in my opinion (a couple came close, but there were always plot issues that kept them from getting full marks from me) but I really enjoyed the season overall. I’d forgotten how good Sonequa Martin-Green was right off the bat, and Doug Jones’s Saru truly was the breakout character among trio of solid contenders.
Its biggest weakness (one that I remember plaguing the next two seasons as well) was that the finale wasn’t that good, which is a problem when you are doing a 15-part serial rather than a season of episodic television. However, it’s not as big a problem in this season as it would become in the next two, because it has already had its big climax a couple episodes earlier.
Overall I’d say that of the seven debut seasons of Trek I’ve rewatched so far, this is probably my third favorite after The Original Series and, surprisingly, Voyager, and I don’t think it’ll be better until I eventually get to Strange New Worlds.