Welcome back to A Read of Ice and Fire! Please join me as I read and react, for the very first time, to George R.R. Martin’s epic fantasy series A Song of Ice and Fire.
Today’s entry is Part 23 of A Feast for Crows, in which we cover Chapter 32 (“Cersei”).
Previous entries are located in the Index. The only spoilers in the post itself will be for the actual chapters covered and for the chapters previous to them. As for the comments, please note that the Powers That Be have provided you a lovely spoiler thread here on Tor.com. Any spoileriffic discussion should go there, where I won’t see it. Non-spoiler comments go below, in the comments to the post itself.
And now, the post!
Chapter 32: Cersei
What Happens
Cersei and her council listen as Margaery Tyrell tells them about the ironmen’s incursion at the Shields, emboldened by their new king, the Crow’s Eye. Cersei is incensed that Margaery dared to rouse her in the middle of the night to demand that she send ships to retake the river, when she considers that the whole thing is probably Margaery’s crippled brother’s fault. Aurane Waters points out that their new fleet is not yet ready, and they are currently no match for the ironmen at sea. Cersei opines that the ironmen are in league with Stannis, ignoring Pycelle’s weak protests that that makes no sense, and declares she will not fall for the trap.
She says Highgarden must answer, but Margaery points out that most of their forces are besieging Storm’s End. Cersei refuses to consider the notion of lifting the siege, and suggests they hire mercenaries instead. Ser Loras begs her to reconsider, but Cersei says they can have their ships back when Dragonstone falls, and not before. Ser Loras then asks permission to take over command at the siege, and promises to have the castle fall within a fortnight. Cersei is delighted at the strong possibility that Loras will die in such an endeavor, and agrees. She again ignores Pycelle’s advice against the idea, and thinks that the old man’s usefulness is at an end.
In private, Qyburn observes that she will need to replace Loras on the Kingsguard if he dies, and says he has someone in mind, a champion that “no living man” will be able to withstand. He then asks about the armor he asked Cersei for; Cersei tells him the armorer thinks she is mad for asking for such impossibly heavy plate, and warns Qyburn of the consequences should he play her for a fool.
She goes to her chamber, where Taena Merryweather is sharing her bed. She tells Taena the news, gleefully observing that Margaery will be “next to naked” without her brother to guard her. Taena cautions her that Margaery has other allies, but Cersei is not concerned. She warns Taena that Cersei will give her to Qyburn if she betrays her, and Taena assures her that she only wants to serve Cersei. Cersei idly wonders what it would be like to have sex with Taena, and reminisces about her unpleasant sexual history with Robert, and how he always pretended he’d been too drunk to remember how roughly he’d used her when he came to “claim his rights.”
She is very displeased to be roused again from her bed, this time by Lady Falyse Stokeworth, who tearfully tells her that Ser Bronn killed her husband in single combat and drove her out of the castle. Infuriated, Cersei reminds Falyse that she had told them to arrange a hunting accident for Bronn, not challenge a seasoned killer to combat. She asks if Balman held his tongue about Cersei’s involvement in the plan, but Falyse indicates that he did not. Cersei summons Qyburn and gives Falyse to him to do as he will with her. Qyburn is pleased, as the puppeteers are “quite used up.” Cersei decides she will deal with Bronn later.
She returns to her chamber, drunk, and roughly fondles Taena awake. Taena protests that Cersei is hurting her, but Cersei tells her she is the queen, and means to claim her rights. Taena submits, but Cersei finds no pleasure in the act.
[Taena:] “Tell me what you would have of me, my love.”
“Leave me.” Cersei rolled away and pulled up the bedclothes to cover herself, shivering. Dawn was breaking. It would be morning soon, and all of this would be forgotten.
It had never happened.
Commentary
Well.
I’m gonna go out on a limb here and assume we’ve got some of that there thematic parallel thingy going on in this chapter. Just a little. Little bit. Smaaall amount.
So the abused becomes the abuser, huh. Sigh. So sad, and yet so, so believable. Not that everyone who is badly-treated goes on to do the same themselves, of course, but I can definitely believe it of someone like Cersei, whose fundamental flaw seems to me to be not so much generic evil as it is a basic inflexibility—a rigidity of mind that leaves her apparently incapable of breaking out of the patterns her life has set for her. She is precisely the kind of person who is doomed to repeat history, possibly not so much because she refuses to learn from her past, but maybe because she can’t.
And it’s not just the rape thing either (and yes, it was rape, in both circumstances; consent given under duress is not consent). I don’t think all the parallels are exact, nor (I suspect) are they meant to be, but it’s probably not an accident that Cersei is turning out to be as shitty a monarch as Robert was in every way, not just in bed.
Maybe even down to the cuckolding, sort of, because Taena has seriously had pending betrayal written all over her since the moment the character showed up—to the point where I don’t even understand how on earth Cersei trusts her so much. But then, Robert trusted Cersei too, didn’t he?
PARALLELS, Y’ALL. Taste the literary magic!
(Speaking of which:
Ten thousand of your children perished in my palm, Your Grace, she thought […] Whilst you snored, I would lick your sons off my face and fingers one by one, all those pale sticky princes. You claimed your rights, my lord, but in the darkness I would eat your heirs.
I’m pretty sure I’ve said before that Martin has a gift for the poetically sordid turn of phrase, but occasionally it bears repeating, because damn.)
Mind you, just because I’m theorizing that Cersei doesn’t understand her own behavior doesn’t mean I’m excusing it. Cersei may not fully comprehend why she’s making the choices she’s making, but that doesn’t change the fact that she’s still the one making those choices. And is, therefore, the one who ought to pay for them.
Whether she actually will pay for them, of course, remains to be seen. In this series there’s no telling which way things will go.
In other news, one way she definitely outstrips Robert in the Shitty Monarch department is the thing with Qyburn, which just gets grosser and more disturbing every time I have to read about it. Clever, really, that Martin is not telling us what Qyburn is actually doing with these women Cersei keeps oh-so-helpfully providing him with, because having to imagine what it is is probably even more unsettling than knowing for sure.
At least I hope so. And I’ll also devoutly hope that we never find out if I’m right, because I repeat: I DON’T WANNA KNOW. Please to not be revealing this particular answer, ever, mmkay?
*glares at the future*
*and Martin*
*and back at the future*
Moving on!
Bronn: Four for you, Bronn Coco! You go!
Obscure and random meme references aside, I… really don’t have a lot to say about Bronn, other than to be vaguely pleased that he is continuing to merrily stick it to Cersei in absentia. I mean, presumably Bronn’s unorthodox social climbing methods (Dude, you got a castle!) are going to have relevance at some point, but right now it seems pretty peripheral. Unless Tyrion ironically really is hiding out with him, but I don’t think…
…you know, actually I can’t remember right now where the hell we last left Tyrion. I have a very dim impression that he was heading overseas, though, so for now I will assume that Bronn, like Communism, is just a red herring. Because I can make obscure and random film references, too! Huzzah!
So, who is this supposedly invincible dude Qyburn’s promising Cersei? This is a new thing, I think. In any case, the remark that “no living man” can beat him makes me verrrrrrry suspicious, that’s for sure. He’s probably not the Witch-king of Angmar, because we’re in the wrong series for that, but I’m betting he’s not a normal dude with an intro like that.
My first thought, actually, was that it was Beric the Undead Outlaw, but then I realized that that made like zero sense and told myself to shut up. But, thing is, the existence of Undead!Catelyn proves that whatever was done to Beric to undeadify him (was that explained? Did I forget? Probably) can be repeated on others. So maybe there’s someone else running around collecting death blows for the LOLZ. All kinds of undead-ish folk up in here! Possibly!
*shrug*
(I also just realized that “Beric the Undead Outlaw” scans perfectly to “Rudolph the Red-Nosed Reindeer,” and now I want to punch myself in the ear because that will be stuck in my head all day, goddammit. …And now yours too. MWAHAHAHA.)
And is the extra-heavy armor for Supposedly Invincible Dude? Why would anyone want really heavy armor? What does it all meeeeaaaannnn, maaaaaan? And what are the odds of my hopes for Qyburn getting accidentally crushed under said armor coming to pass?
Low? Yeah, probably low. But a girl can dream!
In any case, clearly I need to root for Loras to make Supposedly Invincible Dude superfluous by not dying at Storm’s End, because while I don’t have any particular need for the Lannisters to win the siege against Dragonstone, I have a very big need for Highgarden to be free to go kick all the ironborn ass they possibly can, toot sweet. That’s a thing that needs to happen, y’all. So if Dragonstone falling is what it takes for that to happen, well then, sorry, Stannis. Have fun storming the castle, Loras!
Plus, it’ll be worth it just for the look on Cersei’s face when he does it. Hah!
And that is where we cease and desist for the nonce, my chicklets. Have a lovely week, and I’ll see you next Thursday!
Leigh, consider your reaction to Ygritte and Yon back in ASOS Part 9. While Cersei certainly ain’t a nice person, Taena just about jumped into Cersei’s bed.
What Cersei did to Falyse is the true monstrosity in this chapter.
Ten thousand of your children perished in my palm, Your Grace,she thought […] Whilst you snored, I would lick your sons off my face and fingers one by one, all those pale sticky princes. You claimed your rights, my lord, but in the darkness I would eat your heirs.
I’m guessing she’s more referring to the repetetive nature of her relations with Robert, but all this quote makes me think is: Westeros has microscopes?
Unfortunately, even if Loras does survive the raid of Dragonstone, there is room for one on the Kingsguard, given the events in chapter 21 when Ser Aerys stupidly charged Areo Hotah, even if no one in Kings Landing seems to know about it. Can’t say more on this point for now, but yeah, everything about Qyburn just oozes squick, and I’m very glad that we don’t actually see most of what’s going on down in the dungeons. That heavy plate obviously isn’t for his hobby of metalworking…
Speaking of squick, hey there Cersei! You really are turning into a female Robert, what with the bad ruling and excessive drinking and weight gain, so it’s fitting that you decided to complete your transformation by molesting Taena (the part where she imagined herself as a boar goring Merryweather, in hopes of being aroused, was especially classy).
Bronn is the best. He’s not a nice guy, but he’s honest about it (like when Tyrion asked if he would kill a baby and he asked how much he would get paid first). Here, Bronn just rules, uncovering Cersei’s backalley dealings and deftly handling them. Awesome (and I think he actually likes Tyrion, and hates Cersei in part because of what Tyrion had told him, which makes it even better).
Although AFFC gets an unfairly bad rep, these last few chapters and a few more sort of represent a low point of the series (with excpetion to the Brienne parts). From the Shield Island invasion to the rather lurid and pulpy descriptions of Taena’s “seduction”, these recent chapters seem cartoonishly cruel even for this series, and not handled with the usual blunt deft and emotional poignancy all the uhh previous horrible cruelties in the series have been. Something about the recent atrocities just seems lazy.
I get it Falyse is annoying and Cersei is cruel. But I don’t think its really within even her established character to get as mustache-twirling as to give her to Qyburn.
@1 – What Cersei did to Falyse was beyond monstrous. She literally threw away a “friend” like a piece of trash. To be experimented on and slowly tortured to death her own personal Dr. Mengele.
I’m glad we are at this point because this is where Cersei went from bad to unredeemably evil. Anything unfortunate that happens to her in the future is not nearly enough. She’s worse than Euron and the Mountain put together.
@2 A warrior made out of deseased’s body parts, you say? Lemme see… Ser Gregor’s body for size and stamina, Jaime’s sword hand for fighting skillz, Tyrion’s nose for sniffing out enemies’ secrets, and Eddard’s brain, just so that if he decides to betray Cersei, he is going to warn her about his plans a couple of days in advance.
I think @2 might be a little on the nose here.
This was, I think, getting firmly to the point in the series when I started asking, “What in the WORLD is the deal with GRRM and suckling?”
Because, out of curiosity, what in the WORLD is up with that? Going all the way back to Dany’s dragons very implausibly nursing (really, how does THAT work?) and going right on through to Cersei’s offhanded musings in this chapter, we’ve reached the point where nary a chapter may escape the Freudian fiend. It’s become a veritable leitmotif at this point, and isn’t slowing down. Oh, no. There’s more of that to come.
This was also coming around to the point where I was learning to draw the distinction about perversion in ASOIAF that became key to my understanding of prurience and progressivism in the books. The case has been made successfully, and needn’t be made here, that the NARRATIVE of ASOIAF is pro-woman, or that it stands up well enough against progressive scrutiny.
The NARRATOR, on the other hand, is a lecher and a pervert. It’s took a long time for me to see it, because it’s a third-person narrator, and one that hews closely to its subjects, but it does impose its own subjectivity, and that subjectivity, I posit, rather enjoys a good peep.
These analyses have helped me realize just how horrible a ruler Cersei is – not just cruel, ruthless, and paranoid, but misjudging and mis-prioritizing everything and everyone, with disastrous results far and wide. The wonder of it is that she can do so and still be a believable human, not a mwahaha-evil-for-evil’s-sake villain.
Yeah, giving people to Qyburn is one of her most despicable actions to date. With Falyse, her rationale would probably be similar to Tyrion’s reason for turning Symon Silver Tongue into stew – “She had information that endangered my loved ones and I, she had a good chance of disclosing it, and wouldn’t take the hint when I offered her a last chance of escape. I had to do it!” But knifing someone in an alley and feeding them to the poor is much more humane (and charitable) than letting a mad scientist torture them to death for his own amusement.
The Podcast of Ice and Fire’s adapted Christmas carols (which are X-rated and full of spoilers) include the rather good “Robert the Red-nosed Usurper.” Thus, I’ll continue to think of Beric as Ser Diesalot.
@3: Ha, good point! I wonder what they think a man’s “seed” actually is, though I heard somewhere that at some point in our history it was believed to literally be invisibly-tiny people.
Ostracizing the Tyrells, who control much of the armies that support you’re son, is always a good thing in the mind of Cersei. As I recall, most of the infantry besieging the castle were Lannister men whereas the ships that supply the siege are all Redwyne ships, one of the most powerful bannermen to the Tyrells and the house of Olenna. The Tyrells have the manpower in the Reach through local recruitment, but they require the fleet and ships to actually respond to the threat or else they simply fight a defensive war.
Moving on….
I remember when Cersei first sized up Falyse and Balman in her plot against Bronn. She herself indicated that it was a weak team she put together, but now her fury at their failure is almost something from a comic book. She allows a feeble plot to move forward and then is incensed that it fails.
Chapter 32 – Cersei:I gave a little sigh when I just saw that Cersei is the next chapter. Let us see what delights Cersei has in store for us. I think that Margaery is reporting on the Ironborn invasion fleet and saying that something needs to be done. Cersei discounts the number.
Ha!
Cersei is clearly much more clever than Stannis since she just saw through a ploy that he didn’t even have (as far as we know). She then advises Loras to hire pirates to help out. That couldn’t go awry at all.
Loras then volunteers to take Dragonstone within a month. Will this be a fatal mistake on his part or will he take it and be a greater hero? Either way won’t work out well for Cersei although she seems to think that Loras dying would just be grand.
Ah, in the discussion between Cersei and Qyburn, Cersei mentions she has put in an order for Kingsguard armor that:
(I see Leigh doesn’t go where I do so I’ll white this out):
Since Qyburn has been experimenting with Gregor, I’m guessing he has turned him into some sort of killing machine. This pretty much gets rid of the theory from last week that Gregor is masquerading as the Hound as far as I can tell.
And then the “kill Bronn” plot has gone amiss. Imagine that. Falyse notably does not say that Cersei’s name wasn’t mentioned to Bronn. And then Cersei sends Falyse off to Qyburn. That is pretty odious.
And, speaking of odious, Cersei then becomes an abuser as she rapes Lady Merryweather exactly as Robert had done with her. The abused becoming the abuser in the classic spiral of doom.
And now I find myself wondering if Beric had a very shiny nose. Damn it!
‘Qyburn observes that she will need to replace Loras on the Kingsguard if he dies, and says he has someone in mind, a champion that “no living man” will be able to withstand.’
And this right after a chapter about a metaphorical dead man… Tsk. Tsk.
Qyburn is disgusting but it’s all in the imagination. We just don’t know, I mean, we know he’s evil but that’s it. Cersei is just a psychopath.
@15, is Qyburn supposed to be evil in the sense he is a sadist? I don’t think he actually enjoys hurting people, its just that he doesn’t care one way or another. He is all about scientific progress without morality. He is not moved by emotion, as opposed to Cersei. He is sort of the ice in their ice and fire dynamic.
@12. I think his nose fell off.
@15 – Just did a we-search for psychopath and found this.
The following characteristics of a psychopath, defined by Hervery M. Cleckley in 1941 in the book Mask of Sanity include:
· Superficial charm and average intelligence.
· Absence of delusions and other signs of irrational thinking.
· Absence of nervousness or neurotic manifestations.
· Unreliability.
· Untruthfulness and insincerity.
· Lack of remorse or shame.
· Antisocial behavior without apparent compunction.
· Poor judgment and failure to learn from experience.
· Pathological egocentricity and incapacity to love.
· General poverty in major affective reactions.
· Specific loss of insight.
· Unresponsiveness in general interpersonal relations.
· Fantastic and uninviting behavior with drink, and sometimes without.
· Suicide threats rarely carried out.
· Sex life impersonal, trivial, and poorly integrated.
· Failure to follow any life plan.
Other than the absence of delusions, GRRM made Cersie a text-book psychopath.
I’m loving the low expectations of all of the re-readers for Cersei chapters and then her over-deliverying. This could well mark the nadir, at least so far.
Prevent the Tyrells from protecting the Reach and their bannermen from Ironborn? Pushing Loras to enter into the Dragonstone death trap? Raping Taena? Giving Falyse to Qyburn to torture? Big fat yuck.
@18: Yes. And I believe Quburn is more of a sociopath.
I think he is the “clockworker” myth. The guy who cares so little for real people he just wants to be surrounded by perfect clockwork people. Pretty cold and calculating in trying to learn how to prefect his people.
@11 & Leigh: I’d wonder how you would both react to this lovely chapter.
Agree with others who say Cersie just handing over Falyse is a pure act of thoughtless evil.
“It had never happened.”
This line really bothered me. She officially became Robert here, only worse. Because she thinks she’s being smart. Robert didn’t care, and let the Hand rule the kingdom.
Yeah, this chapter was my turning point with Cersei, I was DONE with her at this point.
“I mean, presumably Bronn’s unorthodox social climbing methods (Dude, you got a castle!)” – hah, this is great!
“He’s probably not the Witch-king of Angmar, because we’re in the wrong series for that, but I’m betting he’s not a normal dude with an intro like that” – this also made me laugh out loud. My first thought was of course, “Brienne will kill him!”, because Eowyn and the Witch-King that’s always what I think of when I hear that kind of boast. But I am sure GRRM has something tricker/more subversive up his sleeve.
@18 – Cersei reminds me of a scene from Manhunter, where Graham tells Lechter (paraphrased from memory):
“I don’t think I’m smarter than you.”
“Then how did you catch me?”
“I have one advantage over you. You’re insane.”
Just about every negative adjective you can think of applies to Cersei, but the single most important one is that she is indeed evidently a psychopath. Her inability to empathize with others makes her dangerous, but is also her greatest weakness because she cannot truly comprehend her enemies.
As I think about it, if Cersei’s really hitting the nadir here, perhaps we are about to get yet another redemption arc starting up soon. Or….maybe not.
@23 Cersei may not be able to comprehend her enemies, but I think her biggest weakness is her rejection of her true friends/allies. She pushes away Jamie, rejects Kevan’s (reasonable) demands if he were to be Hand, and relies on people like the Kettleblacks, Qyburn, and Aurane Waters for various questionable despicable reasons. Oh, and her true friend Lady Merryweather, who won’t complain after Cersei painfully molests her…
@24, hmm, well Jaime’s redemption, one could argue, had the catalyst of getting his hand chopped off.
So.
What can we chop off of Cersei? : )
@26: Jamie counted his sword hand as the primary symbol of identity, and losing it forced him to reimagine that identity.
Cersei counted Joffrey as the… oh… well, that didn’t work then.
@26 – her manhood?
You actually raise an interesting question. Cersei is relevent because she’s the mother of the king. Or at least, of the person officially recognized as the king, at the moment.
If both Tommen and Myrcella died at this point in the story, would Cersei still have any claim to power, as the wife of the former king? I guess Stannis would become king, according to the rules of succession?
Because if Cersei does have a metaphorical sword hand, it’s her claim to power. Could she even fall back on Casterly rock? I guess she’s still a Lannister. Hmmm, all kinds of crazy sh*t could happen if all Cersei’s kids were suddenly deceased.
Beric the Undead Outlaw
Had a very shiny sword
And if you ever crossed him
You would swiftly on it be gored!
You’re welcome.
Leigh, I have to say that your articles make my day. I really enjoy your comments and insights into both WOT and ASOIAF, even if I don’t agree with you all of the time. That last element, not agreeing with you but not feeling alienated because of it, is a testimony to your writing skills.
Anyway, I loved this post, and decided it was time to say thankyou for my morning’s entertainment. I am now eagerly awaiting next weeks installment. BTW is the re-read of the WOT re-read still going ahead?
@29 with Tywin dead shouldn’t Kevan technically be the head of Lannisters of Castley Rock anyway? Jaime is KG and Tyrion an alleged criminal. And technically her children are Baratheons.
Even though Cersei jumped into bed with the intent to rape, I think she failed even in that, considering Taena is almost certainly a spy who manipulated her way into Cersei’s bedchamber. Having sexual relations with your mark is classic spy technique to get them closer to you, I think she was all for it.
King Robert gets a bad rap as a ruler, and deservedly so in most cases. but he at least was able to maintain a number of friendships which helped him gain power and maintain it for a time. Cersei is completely unable to operate this way, very evident in the fact that Qyburn is her strongest ally, and all signs are pointing to her having a much shorter time at the top than her late husband (though Martin loves to twist things around of course, so who knows).
@31: The WOT Re-read of the Re-Read – or whatever it will be called is still happening. She just has not said when it will happen.
But she did promise her Re-read fans on FB for an update when it would start.
So we just have to wait and enjoy the ASoIaF in the meantime.
The re-read for this chapter was even more awesome than the one before!
“Whether she actually will pay for them, of course, remains to be seen. In this series there’s no telling which way things will go.”
At this point, I’m pretty sure it’s a question of when Cersei will pay. The only way she could escape her punishment would be if she died for completely unrelated reasons (a frustrating death? In A Song of Ice and Fire? Yeah, she will definitely escape her punishment).
What I love about Bronn is that he is probably the only one who is winning at the game of thrones without even caring to play.
“So maybe there’s someone else running around collecting death blows for the LOLZ. All kinds of undead-ish folk up in here! Possibly!”
Yeah, I think there is an army of them somewhere north of the Wall… My theory, considering the facts we know at the moment, is that Qyburn is building a giant creature from all the women Cersei sends him. But then, why would he use only, or mostly, (non-Brienne-sized) women?
@12: Beric has been blessed by the Power of R’hllor, and thus his nose shines with His Fire to dismiss the night (which is dark and full of terror™)
I remember I read somewhere that people with paranoia not only mistrust people they should trust, but also at the same time trust people that should not be trusted. Don’t know if it is actually true, but it is definitely true for Cercei.
BTW, I think there are actually very few writers who handle insanity well. Most seem to simply use insanity as an excuse for characters doing something without a motive, but it is wrong. Insane people have motives too, although these motives may seem weird for normal people. It is a very impressive feat from Martin that Cercei’s slide into insanity feals so organic and believable.
with Tywin dead shouldn’t Kevan technically be the head of Lannisters of Castley Rock anyway? Jaime is KG and Tyrion an alleged criminal. And technically her children are Baratheons.
If I understand correctly, inheritance in Westeros goes through the children, including females, before devolving to the uncle. (This doesn’t apply to the throne.) Thus, Cersei would become Lady of Casterly Rock and her children after her.
Tyrion resented his father because he didn’t let him have Casterly Rock although it was rightfully his, despite his being younger than Cersei. Being a criminal, Tyrion will definitely not become lord of the Rock, but I don’t see how that would make Cersei’s claim more legitimate.
When people thought Jeoffrey was Robert’s son, his crazyness could be seen as proof that Robert was really related to the Targs, where madness seems to run in the family. But since Robert is not Jeoffrey’s father it is now obvious that he got his crazyness from his mother. It just showed earlier in him than in her.
With Qyburn’s experiments GRRM seems to take Juilin Sandar’s advice about Figs and Mice.
Our English teacher (in Germany) read Rudolph the red-nosed reindeer to us in eleventh grade. We thought it was funny that she didn’t know the world wizard.
Fun fact about Bronn: He’s one of only two characters in the entire series who ends each book he appears in a better posistion than he started. If he was in the series more, he would absolutely be my favorite character.
re: Qyburn’s invincible dude
It’s interesting, the obscure little hints Leigh manages to pick up on at times, when at other times she just can’t seem to put together the puzzle pieces GRRM hands her. At least in this case I totally expected her to be like “HAH! I lulz in your general direction, you lame-ass obvious mystery, you!” given that I’m not exactly the world’s best picker-upper of hints of an obscure nature and quickly figured out what GRRM was getting at with Ser Will-kick-the-snot-out-of-any-living-man. (Roll over to read.)
Ms. Butler never fails to subvert the gentle readers expectations. Except when she does…uh…I think I lost my train of thought here…
@26 Tabbyfl55
hmm, well Jaime’s redemption, one could argue, had the catalyst of getting his hand chopped off.
So.
What can we chop off of Cersei? : )
Her head?
Fun fact about Bronn: He’s one of only two characters in the entire
series who ends each book he appears in a better posistion than he
started.
Who’s the other one, just out of curiosity?
@42 maybe Littlefinger?
Bronn’s position:
Begining of AGOT: random roaming sellsword
Ending of AGOT: employed by a noble as his bodyguard and confidante
Beginning of ACOK: employed by a noble as his bodygyard and confidante
Ending of ACOK: becomes a knight (Tyrion doesn’t see it, since he isn’t awake, but this does happen after the battle of the Blackwater and before Tyrion’s first chapters in ASOS)
Beginning of ASOS: is a knight
Ending of ASOS: marries a noble lady from a family that holds land (Stokeworth)
Beginning of AFFC: is married to the Stokeworths
So far in AFFC: kills the Stokeworth lord in a duel and becomes himself lord of Stokeworth in name and de facto
Seeing this trajectory, I predict (using linear extrapolation) that by the end of the series Bronn will be sitting on the Iron Throne, being king of Westeros and king consort of the recreated Freehold of Valyria, probably riding a dragon or two.
@38, Male primogeniture means Tyrion was supposed to inherit before Cersei. Now that Tyrion has been convicted, he’s ineligible.
WE know Cersei’s guiltier than Tyrion, but no one else does, so in the eyes of Westeros, she is the next eligible heir.
44: nicely done. King Bronn I would have precedent – not so much in Europe, but IIRC in China there’s more than one historical case of a bandit/sellsword type rising to the imperium. And, really, would he be worse than a lot of the others?
43: good point. Bigger and bigger titles just keep sticking to that guy. He’s a sort of feudalistic Katamari Damacy.
@44
My not-so-serious prediction of the end:
– Master of Whispers & Coin & ambassador of Braavos: Littlefinger, married to Sansa Stark
– Hand of the King & Warden of at least one compass direction: Lord Bronn, married to Margaery Tyrell (quite happily, even if all of their children are of dubious parentage)
– King Tommen & Queen Shireen, who are allowed to play with their kittens and eat chocolate icecream all day long.
(Then Arya kills them all, a new war starts and the White Walkers win! The end!)
IIRC, everyone treats Cersei as lady of Casterly Rock after Tywin dies and Tyrion is considered a kingslayer and kinslayer. This means Casterly Rock follows male-preference cognatic primogeniture in technical terms. Her line (including her, Tommen and Myrcella, in that order, and their future children) comes before the line of Tywyn’s brothers (like Kevan and his son Lancel, etc) in inhering Casterly Rock.
If Casterly Rock followed absolute agnatic primogeniture (also known as salic law) then daughter’s and their lines couldn’t inherit in any case and Kevan would be the current lord of Casterly Rock. This doesn’t seem to be the case. Neither does it seems to be agnatic primogeniture (in which case Tommen would be the current lord of Casterly Rock, skipping Cersei due to the agnatic part of succession).
Most noble houses in Westeros seem to follow male preference cognatic primogeniture. That’s why people think Sansa and Arya are so important to make legitimate claims to Winterfell and the North (besides making a show of continuity to the peasants). If Winterfell followed a absolute agnatic primogeniture rule of succession, Ned Stark’s daughters would be irrelevant and some descendant of Ned’s ancestors would be the next in line (possibly even a Karstark). The exception to this are the noble houses of Dorne, that follow absolute cognatic primogeniture, in which the gender of the descendants doesn’t matter in the order of succession.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Primogeniture
Now this is a spoiler (and mods please white out this paragraph in case my editing doesn’t do the trick), but there seems to be another rule regarding succession of a great house and succession to the Iron Throne that characters follow in every case except this one of Cersei. It seems to be illegal for a noble to hold both the title of a great house and the throne at the same time. This would explain why Robert Baratheon gave away the title of lord of the Stormlands to his younger brother Renly and why Doran Martell wanted his son Quentyn to succeed him as lord of Dorne instead of his daughter, who would become part of the royal household after she married Vyserys Targaryen. This is a plot point later in the book, explaining why Doran treated his son and daughter differently than he should, but doesn’t explain why people are OK treating Cersei as lady of Casterly Rock and Queen Regent at the same time. (Roll over to read.)
Well, “Regent” isn’t a life-long post, or at least, isn’t expected to be. So when one is no longer Regent, one expects to be able to fall back into their inherited title, I would think.
@39: I believe Robert’s Targ ancestry is a well-known fact. But yes, people who think he’s Joffrey’s father could blame it for the kid’s ‘madness.’
@47: Nice. I’m in favor of any future in which Shireen is less lonely and neglected affection-wise. I pity the child more than many characters who’ve suffered worse, and just want to hug her.
@48: That’s how Winterfell got into the hands of Ramsay Bolton and someone posing as Arya. (Roll over to read)
@48 re whited out part:
A) Legally speaking, Cersei’s not actually on the throne, she’s just ruling in Tommen’s name because he’s too young. No matter how much she likes to tell herself otherwise, the Iron Throne is not hers. She’s just the caretaker.
B) I think there’s a So Spake Martin where he clarified that Robert could’ve kept the Stormlands even after taking the Iron Throne, and either given it to his younger son or kept it in the primary line. He chose not to, but it was his choice. But as I said, that’s based on a half-remembered quote I can’t dig up now.
@38 Sons before daughters, but daughters before brothers. Although not everybody follows the rules…
Ack! I thought my now-whited plot point had been finalized and made clear by this point; apparently not. Thanks to whoever fixed it.
@44:
” Master of Whispers & Coin & ambassador of Braavos: Littlefinger,
married tokilled by Sansa Stark”Fixed that for you.
@39, @50: Yes, it is. Robert’s grandmother was daughter of Aegon the Unlikely (which makes Maester Aemon his and Stannis’ great-great uncle; they are also related to the Mad King, Rhaegar and Dany, but I don’t want to try to find out what those exact relations are called).
@5 yup, this is part of a real nadir for the series. Shallow villains drunk on power, minimal believable intrigue, crude foreshadowing, just lazy writing all around.
@54 Robert/Stannis/Renly are (or were) second cousins of Rhaegar/Viserys/Daenerys.
I always find it hilarious to think that if either Robert or Stannis had been a girl, that would probably have been the bride picked for Rhaegar, as the most closely related female of appropriate age. Can you imagine Robert and Rhaegar married to each other? Or sour Stannis as the bride of poetically emo Rhaegar?
Beric the Undead Outlaw
Only had a single eye
And if the bad guys fought him
He didn’t care if he would die
So I forgot these readings for five straight weeks because of overall dullness and I’m glad to see that I didn’t miss basically anything. The book continues to be all about people (usually two, sometimes even, gasp, three or more,) talking to each other about something something until there is rape rape rape and then the talking talking continues like never before. I guess I let five more weeks pass before checking back again. Hopefully the Book of Talk & Rape will be over by then.
Yeah, I want the old books back. They were all about people (usually two, sometimes even, gasp, three or more,) talking to each other about something something until there was killing, killing, killing, murdering, killing and then the talking talking continued like never before. Usually about killing and murdering. Occasionally politics, too. Which is kinda the same thing in Westeros, so ignore that.
Those were exciting times and the characters were hell a lot more interesting than Cersei’s POV and all those Greyjoys who makes me want to sleep upside down in a pile of snow. Also, all those killings in the past>present rape, present talks, talks about rape, and boring politics.
Great insights as usual Leigh.
@58’s comments aside, I am wondering how you’re feeling about the book so far. Or is that reserved for the final recap?
I don’t hate AFFC and ADWD as much as most people seem to. I tend to agree with @59. There’s not really much difference in the books other than at this point we are going even lower in tone and theme than where we started. And yeah a lot of the characters that are focus right now are not really the “fun” ones. It can be hard to get through. But I still think it’s going somewhere.
I think AFFC is a fine intermediate book. GRRM seems to be creating some springboards for the rest of the series. The ironborn fleet sailing off to kidnap Dany feels like a tool to serve that purpose.
Basically a regrouping and repositioning book. The Brienne quest and the Arya chapters are quite interesting gems amidst to work of the rest.
@61 naupathia
I think a main factor is that the shock of people we’re conditioned to identify as the heroes/protagonists dying before they get to complete their literary arc has worn off. It used to be a thrill ride of unexpectedness but now we just know all the twists and turns, dips and loops.
Also, people were travelling all over the place in the early books, while now they mostly stay in one place which I think increases the feeling of things not moving forward in more than just the literal sense.
There’s one thing that I wish I’d mentioned earlier: this is the chapter when I actually started to think much, much less of both Ned and Jon Arryn, on account of Robert’s overall awfulness.
No, they probably didn’t know about the marital rape (and it’s debatable whether or not they’d even see it as wrong in the first place), but it’s becoming abundantly clear Robert wasn’t the “overgrown manchild who just needs to grow up some” that both Ned and Jon treated him as. He was an abusive alcoholic bully who put his own selfish needs above that of the kingdoms he was supposed to rule and protect.
Leave aside the rape for a moment (never in my life did I ever believe I could ever type that sentence), but how much of the kingdoms’ current ills can be traced back to the fact that neither of these two men whom Robert loved most ever called him out on his bullshit and told him to man up?
Not that it would have helped – as far as I can tell, the only person to have ever done so was Stannis, whom Robert despised probably for that very reason. But looking back, I can’t help but lose a lot of respect for both Ned and Jon for the way they indulged and rationalized Robert’s worst aspects even though it was actively hurting the kingdoms in the process.
Well, for the greater part of Robert’s kingdom Ned was living very far away and minding his own business. That part in AGOT when Robert visits Winterfell is the first time Ned sees Robert since Balon’s rebellion. So, over a period of 14-15 years, Ned met Robert twice. And one of the reasons they kept without talking with each other for years was Ned’s reaction to Robert being all OK with the murder of the Targaryen children. Ned’s way to solve disputes with Robert all the way back then was isolating himself and not talking to his friend (and Ned threatens to do this again when Robert orders Daenerys killed). Not very successful (Robert’s opinion on murdering Targaryen children changes only in his deathbed), but it’s consistent for 15 years. He doesn’t so much indulge his king as he tries to avoid confrontation with him when some matter of conflict arises, showing disapproval by not communicating with him and isolating himself in his farway castle and never coming to visit.
Ned and Robert were friends during childhood and early adulthood, but it’s clear by Ned’s reaction to the order to murder Daenerys and the event when Robert slapped Cersei that their friendship wouldn’t last in their adult years. The only reason they didn’t argue more over the years was because they didn’t live near each other most of the time, both of them having found memories of their times as young men but not actually having cultivated that friendship over the latter part of their lives.
@@@@@ Independent George: Ryamano makes good points about Ned. However, when it comes to Jon Arryn, I agree. It’s funny that this man, who we never actually meet, is revered so much by Ned (who we know at first as our main protagonist and are therefore prone to accept his judgments without much questioning) and respected by most other people who mentions him, but when we look at all his actions we know, he seems so incredibly incompetent that he makes Ned Stark look like a political genius. From being responsible for the Robert/Cersei marriage, to indulging Robert, to needing more than a decade at court to realize that Cersei is sleeping with Jaime and that Robert’s kids might not be his kids, to, worst of all, being responsible for Littlefinger’s advancement, at the instigation of his wife (and apparently not being aware he was her lover) – Littlefinger, who “solved” the realm’s money problems (made worse by Robert’s spending) largely by borrowing heavily from the Iron Bank and Tywin Lannister – and who went on to convince his wife to poison him, and was the architect of the war. Although others said that Arryn gave good council and Robert didn’t listen, this is not enough to explain the late Hand’s horrible mistakes.
@65, 66 – You both make great points, and I agree to an extent, but it bothers me in re-reads how Ned’s internal narrative is devoted entirely to saving Robert from himself, rather than saving the kingdoms from Robert. While it’s perfectly natural to think of his lifelong friend over an anonymous, abstract “The Kingdoms/The People”, it also gets at some of the main themes in ASOIAF. Robb makes the same mistake when he chooses Jeyne over his sworn obligations to the Freys, and apparently so did Rhaegar twenty years prior.
It also reminds me of a point another commentor here made about Ned vs Davos: Ned chose love over duty by sparing Robert the details of Cersei’s crimes on his deathbed, and ensured the resulting clusterfuck. Davos, meanwhile, always puts his duty first, because that is in fact the source of his love, and may have saved the kingdoms as a result.
Also, RE: Littlefinger – it’s easy to conflate the show vs. the book. Show!Littlefinger ran a zany pyramid scheme that put the Kingdoms in a ruinous position; Book!Littlefinger ran a clever series of leveraged investments (likely with “bonus” bribery and kickbacks thrown in). This was in fact very sound during peacetime, but was thrown into chaos by the war (just prior to the battle of Blackwater, Tyrion executed a large number of people who borrowed from the Crown).
I actually am rather annoyed at the Show for making this change precisely because of these implications. Book!Littlefinger might actually be an even bigger financial genius than people believe him to be in-universe. He doesn’t just generate a lot of real wealth for the Crown (and Gulltown before it) – he does it in a truly innovative way that could have advanced Westeros’ economy by decades. Meanwhile, Show!Littlefinger is little more than a scam artist who maintains only the debt-financed illusion of wealth. It’s actually somewhat tragic in that Book!Littlefinger really could have been a good husband for Cat, and has a much more sophisticated grasp of economics than anybody in Westeros. It all ties back to Westeros’ hidebound warrior mentality and the difference between wealth and capital – there’s much more I could say about it, but I’ll wait a few chapters to avoid spoilers.
+1 re your LF comment. I had the same thought.
Re the related comments above, +1 to all who said – what was up with Jon Arryn? He was beloved but I don’t think we’ve seen anything in book to confirm that he was a great (or even good) Hand.
@69, I despise Jon Arryn, for his cowardice and bad judgement. When he learned the truth about Cersei, he shouldn’t have been skulking about KL with Stannis, he should have been proclaiming it to every person who would listen.
@Aeryl
Cowardice and bad judgement huh? We don’t know when he became certain about the incest, or what he had planned in order to reveal the truth. After all, rushing to make an accusation in a case like this can make the truth easily deniable. Remember at the start of the series that the Lannisters were a very powerful faction at court and could probably weahter such challenges.
He never confided in Ned. That was stupid. The only person he got on his side, was the most ineffectual lord in all of Westeros. Yes, that makes him a coward and guilty of terrible judgement.
Confide in Ned on the other side of the continent? The man is so far removed from the politics of kings Landing that he would not be able to make a meaninful impact when the plot is revealed or its immediate aftermath. Further, at what point is it mentioned that he did not intend to contact his foster son regarding these plots?
Given time he might of, but he would also need to send birds with messages. And guess who handles the birds in Kings Landing. If you guessed the Lannister stooge Pycelle, the same Maester that let Jon die, then you can probably see that there is no reliable way to contact Ned without the risk of alerting the Lannisters.
Confide in Ned on the other side of the continent?
A journey of a few weeks by sea? Oh NOES! How did the lords of actual medieval Europe function?
The man is so far removed from the politics of kings Landing that he
would not be able to make a meaninful impact when the plot is revealed or its immediate aftermath.
The man who controls the largest landmass in the country you mean? The man allied to THREE noble families, by marriage and fosterage? The man who might have decided to bring more that 50 paltry men to King’s Landing if he’d known the truth? The man who could have gotten a ship to Dragonstone to rally Stannis to his side if he’d known the truth? That guy? The one who could have been so much more effective, if his greatest mentor hadn’t conspired to keep him in the dark?
Given time he might of, but he would also need to send birds with messages
Again, the journey takes a few weeks if done by sea, Catelyn does it and beats Ned to the capitol. If Jon Arryn couldn’t find someone he trusted enough to deliver such a message to Ned by hand, he’s a worse Hand than I ever imagined.
Well if that’s what you want to argue about, then why didn’t Arryn go to ROBERT with the truth?
@74, Because Robert was an ineffectual buffoon who would have slaughtered Cersei and her children on the spot, inciting a civil war they may not win, because their strongest ally is WAY THE HELL up North?
I understand not telling Robert until you have a plan of action in place, but Ned? Ned should have been the first person Jon Arryn brought in.
For interesting discussion of Jon Arryn, see this.
For that matter, see this as well, for some discussion of Littlefinger, too.
And I think Jon didn’t have “proof”. He had Stannis’ suspicions, but before you accuse the Queen of adultery, you need to have a better arguement than “Blond hair!”. Thus, Jon’s efforts to build a body of evidence to say “Well, Baratheon children all have dark hair, and have for generation after generation, but Lannisters tend to be blond, so hey, I think Cersei’s been cheating on the King.”
Beric the Undead Outlaw
Had a very missing nose,
And if you never saw it
You would even say it’s gross.
All of the other outlaws
Used to hail and call him names. (Lord Beric!)
They never let poor Beric
Stop playing all these throne games.
Then one foggy godswood eve
Beric came to say,
“Thoros with your fire so bright
I’m going to give my life tonight.”
Then all the outlaws loved him
As they shouted out in glee,
Undead Cat rules the Outlaws
They’ll go down in his-to-reeeee!
I may have a raging case of the Male Gaze but I always thought Taena was totally down with sexytimes with Cersei. Her line seemed more like a roleplaying kind of thing…
I could be wrong and it could be a sort of “I’m terrified because you’re a complete psycho and my life might hang in the balance in going along with this oncoming three-knuckle shuffle” but I never really considered it until reading this re-read…
Reminds me of the whole Mat+Tylin scenario. Some people see different things…
Cersei doesn’t suddenly become an abuser in this chapter. She doesn’t become an abuser after her marriage to Robert. She has been an abusive, manipulative and sometimes murderous piece of work from early childhood.