Welcome to the spoiler thread for the fourth week of the Memories of Light, the daily preview of the final volume of Robert Jordan’s epic Wheel of Time series, A Memory of Light. Some memories may shed new light on long-held theories and all are sure to have many different interpretations. Join the discussion of their meaning on the Memories of Light spoiler thread below!
Peruse more theories on the other spoiler threads for the Memories of Light.
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“Why are you helping me?” Perrin demanded. “I’m fond of you, Perrin.”
My guess would be Perrin and Loial.
Tylee and Perrin.
Perrin wouldn’t demand anything of Loial, least of all an explanation of why Loial was helping him with something. Sounds more like Perrin and an Aes Sedai. Possibly Siuan or Moiraine? It’s clearly someone Perrin doesn’t expect to help him. Could it be Morgase?
I think it is someone that Perrin would not normally expect help from.
My first instinct is to say Luc/Isam, and Slayer is saying it sarcastically. He is helping him because it is necessary, but he doesn’t really want to do it.
My vote is for Berelain. He sounds kind of defensive about it.
I think the tone is exactly as Wookster125 says…somebody is actively (or about to) helping Perrin that he does not expect. This leads me to believe it is someone Perrin doesn’t like or doesn’t trust yet is familiar enough with Perrin to drop that line.
It can’t be Bornhald because (unless it is ultra sarcasm) I don’t think Bornhald would say such a thing…although, they are travelling together now, kind of, so maybe. I don’t thinks it’s Berelain because I think Perrin trusts her( and they pretty much resolved things in TOM). I could maybe see an Aes Sedai, but it would need to be one that spent substantial time with Perrin…Alanna maybe? I don’t think Perrin would ask Moiraine why she was helping him.
I suppose there could be an outside chance it’s Slayer, but I don’t see them stopping to talk about anything. I think Perrin would off him without a moments hesitation.
Maybe another commenter has some better candidates.
Edited for typo
i think its slayer. maybe he has a change of heart
Perrin wouldn’t ask this of Berelain. As a leader of the “I despise Berelain” crowd, I also acknowledge that she is certainly a member of Team Light, and she helped Perrin plenty of times; so now, especially after she and Faile repaired the damage done to Perrin’s reputation, it wouldn’t be a surprise to have her help.
He wouldn’t ask Tylee either. They allied to take Malden, and share mutual respect. I purely cannot imagine Slayer saying this. It’s almost like it would need to be an Aes Sedai’s Warder who was helping him in opposition to her, or an Aes Sedai who was helping him in opposition to the Amyrlin Seat. We do know that Perrin and Egwene are on opposite sides of the “break them, break them now” debate. But who is in that category and would answer Perrin that they are fond of him? Not as many Aes Sedai know Perrin as know Rand or Mat. Verin is dead. Alanna? She was, with Verin, apart from the breaking of the White Tower, neither had taken a side at all.
I got nothing.
It has to be Galad.
Hmmm, this one is a tough one.
Not an enemy, not a friend, but someone that trusts Perrin. They are fond of Perrin, but he doesn’t quite trust them, or their motives at least. So, they had to spend some time with him, to get to know him, enough to be “fond” of him, but obviously not close. Someone who Perrin doesn’t expect help from. Masuri? Seonid? Alanna?
#8 Freelancer
Good points. I was initially going to go with Berelain, but I think I’m going to change my guess to Morgase. She’s not allied to Perrin, so he wouldn’t necessarily expect her help with anything. And now that her true identity has been revealed, she’s back in Elayne’s camp, so she isn’t reliant on Perrin any more, like she was after escaping Amador.
Verin
SedaiMathwin!“Why are you helping me?” Perrin demanded. “I’m fond of you, Perrin.”
Ah… I was going to say Morgase, but I see that #11TKovacs has beat me to it.
I could really hear that phrase coming out of Berelain’s mouth. While, in general, it’s well known that she’s on his team, there would be certain situations where Perrin wouldn’t be expecting any help from her. Secondary possibility would be any Aes Sedai – Moiraine, perhaps? If Verin were still alive I would have guessed her.
#22 I agree with SPC, I think it is likely Moiraine Damodred. Perrin’s memory of her is enough to make him suspicious of help. And it is possibel that she is fond of the three rivers lads.
“Why are you helping me?” Perrin demanded. – This is the type of question you ask of someone whose motives you distrust. For Perrin, Slayer goes far beyond that. Slayer destroyed Hopper, so unless Perrin is physically trapped or otherwise in a situation where he would die without assistance (which actually could apply here) I think the first thing he would do is try to remove Slayer’s head before he interrogated it.
“I’m fond of you, Perrin.” – This phrase implies a female speaker. I have not reread the books for awhile (so could be wrong), but I do not recall an instance where one man told another that he had a fondness for him. Slayer especially. If Perrin were trapped and Slayer were stepping in to help, I would expect him to react to Perrin’s question much as Moridin did to Rand at Shadar Logoth. Essentially “Do you want to chat or to live?”
So it seems to me that the other person is most likely a female whose motives Perrin distrusts. “I’m fond of you Perrin” does not sound to me like any Aiel, much less a Wise One, so I am going with Berelain. In spite of their rapprochment in TOM, I think Perrin will always be suspicious of her motives. It could be Annoura, maybe, but my bet is on Berelain.
The fun of these “memories” of course, is making the guess and then reading and finding out – lol. I actually picture everyone in a tavern listening as Thom recites the story in Plain Chant with groans, laughter and cheers (and probably some silver crossing back and forth) as the context of each quote is revealed.
I can’t see it being Moiraine or Morgase. Perrin has seen Morgase speak up for him to Elayne during their meeting in ToM. And I don’t think Perrin would be suspicious of Moiraine at all, at least not in helping him accomplish something.
I think it’s Galad. Galad’s POV’s at the end of ToM seem to indicate that he likes Perrin, regardless of their seeming differences. The only part I’m not too sure about is why Perrin would be suspicious of Galad since Galad’s commuting of Perrin’s death sentence.
Why do people keep suggesting Slayer? Didn’t Perrin destroy him in the Dream World in TOM? I would guess that it is Morgase or an Aes Sedai.
@@@@@ 18, no Slayer is still very much alive. Perrin just wounded him again.
Also, have you read the pre-release material? Isam/Luc/Slayer appears in the prologue.
Does Perrin know all of Balwer’s background? I remember he had bits, but I don’t think he ever got a full understanding of Balwer’s spymaster background. Could it be Perrin asking this in such a situation that the truth has been suddenly learned?
Of course, it’s very likely that Perrin already has the full story, in which case, maybe Egwene after Perrin sides with Rand, but she offers to help him. The tone doesn’t sound like EF Egwene, but it certainly sounds like WT Egwene.
I’d add that the person helping, probably doesn’t have a ‘better’ reason than fondness — in other words, it’s not someone who was told to, or they’d probably say so (for instance, if it was due to Rand or Egwene’s order). And a character doing something for no stated reason but fondness, does seem Berelain-ish.
Not that it’s Lan, but it reminds me a bit of when Lan was helping Rand way back at the start of TGH. *pangs of nostalgia*
“Why are you helping me?” Perrin demanded. “I’m fond of you, Perrin.”
It would have to be someone he doesn’t trust. Maybe Siuan or Morgase.
It’s Galad. It’s a callback to when Perrin tells Galad he is saving him because he is fond of the horse.
Cassandra
What about the Seanchan officer that helped Perrin? It seemed like they had a grudging respect for each other…
Here’s an idea, inspired by #23: It’s Perrin’s horse. We already know that at least some horses in the world are more than what they appear (Bela.) Stepper (or Stayer) already knows Perrin is fond of him. Perrin is wondering why his horse would be helping him, after having to carry him all over the world. “Because I’m fond of you, Perrin.”
My first thought was Cyndane. Back in TDR Lanfear expressed interest in Mat and Perrin, and seemed “fond” of them. Could be that Perrin is in trouble with DFs or Forsaken, and Cyndane helps him escape or something.
I have to go with Allana, Perrin is still suspicious of her and he dont know about her bond to Rand. She could definatly be fond of him too.
I know I spelled Alanna wrong :-)
@@@@@ 23, it’s a great idea, but Galad would be helping him because he’s sworn to obey him until the Last Battle is over, and it’s right to help your commander.
Maybe it’s Faile and he’s doing something she doesn’t approve of.
Faile goes off the radar again (thus the snake memory from last week), and Berelain moves in… Perrin is suspicious as she did the same thing last time… so she gives the “fond” reply, then follows it with “but this tie I do not mean to come between you, but rather bring you together again.”
Can’t be Tylee as she only addresses him through his rank, as all Seanchan do.
Wow! This one is tough for me. I don’t remember Perrin being suspisious of anyone. He’s not as trusting as he was in the beginning but with his ability to smell a person’s emotions he “reads” people very well. I wonder what this person smells like that he would demand an answer?
Definitely want to print a list of these memories, so I can look for them when the book comes out!!
either this is irrelevant dialogue or it is important to Perrin’s story arc. If it’s irrelevant, nothing can prove that ahead of time so it’s not going to be productive to guess at context – fun perhaps but not productive.
If it is important, than I think the first question to ask is what, at this point, does Perrin need to complete his story arc? Again, we’ve only got our assumptions about what that arc is, but assuming it’s not going to include aspects off the charts from what we all believe, what does Perrin need and who may be in the best position to have it on hand as it were? who has it and would give it – because any number of minor factors could make him momentarily antagonized enough to “demand” an answer to why he’s being ‘helped’.
HE doesn’t have to necessarily be suspicious of a person. Maybe he is doing something crazy/suicidal for his own reasons, and it could be any one of his ‘acquaintances’ who has built enough respect for him or succumbed to the ta’varen way.
Looking at it from that point of view – Galad is one that immediately jumped out as the leading candidate for mine. even though they have built some sort of mutual ‘trust’ by the end of the last book, Perrin certainly wouldn’t be expecting Galad to turn back and help him on a crazy quest.
However, at the same time, I think their storyline together away from the main group is finished, and Galad is well and truly on a direct charge to dying selflessly in aid of the greater good. So I guess now I am stuck again!
My first post in this new format. I tried numerous times to sign up for the emails (including emailing Tor) and never have received one. Thanks to my good friend Tektonica, I’m getting them forwarded!
Well, of all the people put forward so far, Galad is the strongest. But still, he has sworn fealty until the Last Battle is over, so there’s that. It wouldn’t be any of the folks from Two Rivers for obvious reasons. It wouldn’t be any from his huge army for other obvious reasons. Maybe Demandred?
OK, I have nuthin’
For all the reasons listed above, I think it’s an Aes Sedai. (Best guess would be Alanna, but it could be a different one.) It’s someone he doesn’t see as having any reason to help him, and probably some reason to oppose him, or else it’s someone he’s never trusted anyway. In either case, an Aes Sedai would be logical.
Based on the relationships we’ve seen so far, I would rule out Faile, Berelain, Galad, any of the Aiel, Loial, Alliandre, and the Duopotamians. I can just about imagine it being either Elayne or Birgitte, in the right circumstance, but I think it’s most probably an Aes Sedai. It could be Moiraine, especially if he’s doing something he would expect her to oppose. Otherwise, my best bet is Alanna.
Morgase is a good gues.
What about one of the Aes Sedei or Wise Ones who have been traveling with him.
Definitley not Slayer/Isam. They would kill eachother at the first chance.
“Why are you helping me?” Perrin demanded.
I don’t think he would ‘demand’ to know why Morgase wanted to help him. She had already sorta vouched for him to Elayne in Andor.
It could be Berelain, but it sounds like someone whom he doesn’t completely trust and would be wary of their help. Why would he be wary of Berelain?
I tend to think she has moved on to bigger better things (ahem… Galad)
and is probably not on the whole chasing after Perrin thing.
I also don’t think it is Slayer since he hates Perrin, and besides that Perrin wouldn’t let him go for killing Hopper. Plus in the prologue Slayer was frustrated when he was told (presumably by Cyndane) he had to give up hunting Perrin and start hunting Rand.
An Aes Sedai is a good guess since he is already wary of AS.
Or could this offer of help be a trap? Maybe Cyndane or some darkfriend is offering what appears to be help, but in the end isn’t?
Maybe one of Faile’s relatives?
Hmm. The last we saw of Deira Bashere was chilling out at the manor house in Arad Doman in TGS. The last reference to her temperament about another major character was that she didn’t trust Rand (probably thought he’d get her husband killed needlessly). And towards Perrin, after she and Faile slapped each other, her and Davram accepted him as a son-in-law. No particular demonstration of emotion in his favor.
So, imagine that all of the Bashere clan is in one place, and Perrin gets in a throw-down with Faile, then Deira takes his side against her daughter…
Nahhhh, never happen.
Graendal! After being burned by the Darkside one time too many, she has decided to throw her lot in with the
JediLightfriends. #wishfulthinkingPerrin’s destiny is the Song. and in some fashion I believe he will be the catalyst behind the ‘belief that gives order’.
He already has the tools he needs for the latter, and for the former, he may need Ogier, aiel, tinkers and possibly Elayne’s talisman of growing.
Would anyone in those parties fit in this memory?
It’s also possible of course that Moiraine has the answer to that puzzle – if so it would have to have been given incidentally to her since she’s too driven on one goal to have asked anything that isn’t directly related to her Cause. But for some reason I keep seeing Moiraine in this line. I remember her using the term ‘fond’ often.
I’m going with Tylee (addressing Perrin) as well. Their last alliance was tenuous and based on a mutual threat. She is Seanchan and for now they are still on opposite sides. Yet Tylee has had opportunity to become familiar with Perrin and even maintain some respect and affection for him.
I agree with the other above that the word “fond” isn’t one we’d expect to hear from a male in this series. Possibly one exception is Raen, the Seeker of the band of Tinkers that Perrin has encountered twice. I’d have thought maybe Ilia, but I think any fondness she felt for him might have evaporated with the situation for Aram, but if not, then she is also a possibility.
I’ve got it!!!! i know who it is!!! its QUEEN TENOBIA herself!! she is fond of perrin!!
its a little crazy theory of mine, so hear me out…
after the meeting between the monarchs white tower and rand, they didnt have an agreement about the seals. so everything is stalemate. i think it will be at least two weeks before they have a unified front against the the DO. so the week before the LB, tenobia got to know perrin, got jealous of faile so confesses to perrin or something.
— there you go, my crazy theory. ok guys start shooting holes at it!! lol
Aram’s former tinkers pack, either his grandmother or the seeker. They dispise him for letting aram take up the sword, but help him find the song
ugh that doesn’t make sense in the “i am fond of you” context, sorry :O
Since I’m assuming Perrin’s largest task/tasks towards the end will happen in the world of dreams… maybe Egwene? She’s the only other character who comes close to matching his skills in TAR, and since he’s siding with rand at FOM, it’s easy to understand why he wouldn’t expect her help.
Also, perrin has never been a kiss-ass to aes sedai, and has known egwene forever, which might explain the “demanding”.
My best guess would be an Aes Sedai, or possibly Raen of the Tinkers.
I just reread the section in EotW where Perrin and Egwene hang with the Tinkers for the first time, with Elyas. Raen is very disapproving of Perrins’ axe, but seems to like him as a man. Later there is the loss of Aram, to Perrin, and violence. As the last battle nears, and Perrin needs to find the song, perhaps Raen will help him in some non-violent way. It would be a nice circle closed.
I think Rand knows/remembers the song now that he is integrated.
I know everyone thinks the song is key to something. I’m not sure that it is. I think what they’re searching for doesn’t actually exist. In Rand’s Rhuidean experience, it’s suggested the Tinkers are looking for the songs, i.e. plural. Perhaps over 3000 years that has morphed into one Song they seek. It’s more a metaphorical search for what has been lost, not an actual song.
I believe Rand and all the Aiel clan chiefs know the song, remember the history of the Aiel that they all see. It has nothing to do with Rand being integrated.
I always thought the song was reference to the Ogier and Nym ability to sing to trees and make them grow. I don’t remember if humans were ever ability to learn that type of magic, but if so I think that is what the Tuath’an seek
Tektonica @@@@@ 50:
Ooo. Good one. I like that. The Tinkers have to come back into the story sometime before the end.
re. THE SONG:
From the Prologue of EotW, Lews Therin to Elan Morin—
Mark my word: in the end it will all be about The Song. The Song also figured heavily in Rand’s experience in Rhuidian.
Day 23:
“Light burn me,” Rand said. “You’re not him, are you?”
day 23 “Light burn me,” Rand said. “You’re not him, are you?”
Rand to Moridin
@@@@@ 57.joedmd
Either that or Shaidar Haran.
“Light burn me,” Rand said. “You’re not him, are you?”
Rand to Matt, when Rand hears of the empresses husband the Prince of Ravens and it turns out to be Matt.
I thought Rand to Demandred, or a 13×13’d channeller.
Guess I should have said Demandreds alter ego.
Rand when he finds out who the Emperess Fortuona’s husband really is.
Rand to MaleForsaken/Gray Man disguised as Tam, hence last week’s “As Tam attacked again, Rand raised the sword and…”
@57 and 59: Interesting theories, as are those concerning Damodred revealed.
Now for my crazy theory: Somewhere — in The Path of Daggers, I think — Lews’ voice mentions that there are him (Lews), Rand and “the other.” I’m rereading the series, but haven’t gotten all the way through. Unless someone can remind me or theorize on who “the other” Lews was referring to, I have two thoughts… a) “the other” is yet an earlier/later personality linked to the Lews/Rand soul (i.e., yet a different incarnation of the Dragon Reborn) or b) “the other” is the full integration of Lews and Rand’s personalities.
So, what if “you’re not him” is Rand seeing either the physical manifestation of Lews Therin (–you have to die to live theory–) or the physical manifestation of yet a third personality?
As always— CAN. NOT. WAIT!!
We know that the Moridin’s appearance has morphed over the books and the Forsaken often come is disguise…lulling before they strike. At some point in Rand’s upcoming venture, everything will be thrown at him. This passage portends an encounter with one of those perpetrators. “You’re not him, are you?”…Rand’s frustration is evident, almost as if he’s searching for “him” to talk instead of fight. The lowercase “h” says to me it isn’t the Dark One he’s referring to. That usually shows up as a capital, doesn’t it? Has to be addressing someone he thinks may be Moridin but isn’t sure.
Rand when he sees Mazrim Taim and Demandred in the same place at the same time
Rand to somebody he suspected of being Demandred, or to somebody impersonating somebody he trusts.
Could also be Rand to Moridin or Rand to the Dark One.
@64- I thought the ‘other’ one was Moridin- after CoS’ ‘crossing the streams’, they became linked, and Rand was able to see Moridin’s face in his mind’s eye, and thus Lews Therin could ‘see’ him too.
On second thought, Rand to Logain makes the most sense to me (based on darvik’s 13×13 suggestion). Logain is darksided and Rand is commenting on how, like other lightsiders have, the person is not who they seem to be. Same memories, same looks, different eyes, different smiles, different people.
This gives Nynaeve another opportunity to show how badass she is and heal Logain once again, this time using her Mr. Clean Magic Dark One Compulsion Eraser (patent pending).
rand to egwene when he finally finds out that nasty woman is actually the dark one!
no, I think it’s the voice we hear in the eotw, we have never heared anymore about that did we?
@41 Can’t be Graendal, she’s busy not forgetting Shaidar Haran. I doubt we’ll see her again! Some Aes sedai I’d say…
first meeting between rand and isam mandragoran,probably in tar.
rand wants to make sure its not lan before the inevitable showdown.
Random thought, maybe rand sees slayer/ lord Luc as he now knows who he is through his mother portrait is caemlyn! Also any thought on who slayer is?? Perrin quote slayer to look like LAN so could it be cowin Gelmallan the malkier who betrayed the country to the shadow as he has been mentioned numerous times! And can’t remember the quote but Jain farstrider was mentioned as a wolf
It may be Rand to Luc. Maximum probability of it being Luc coz cyndane ordered him to kill Lews Therin at all costs.
It can also be Rand to Davram or whoever demandred is impersonating.
What i do not understand though is how demandred can use an army of people who follow the light to serve the shadow’s purposes? Graendal mentioned him having an army before i guess.
Schrodinger@69: ….Mr. Clean Magic Dark One Compulsion Eraser (patent pending). ROFLOL!
Could be Demandred in disguise, but I like the idea of this being: Rand finding out that The Prince of Ravens is MAT!! Holy Seanchan Batman! That ought to throw Rand for a loop! And of course, it’s potentially VERY useful!
#23
“Light burn me,” Rand said. “You’re not him, are you?”
Rand response to seeing Matt missing left eye?
@73. Asha’man Marty
Just to clarify, Slayer = Isam + Luc
Isam = son of Lain (brother of last Malkier king) and Breyan (who conspired with Cowin). Cousin to Lan
Luc = Tigraine’s brother, ie Rand’s uncle
I’m not sure what to think about this one, but I’m leaning towards Slayer at the moment. I can’t imagine Rand stopping to say this if he suspected someone of being Moridin or Demandred. He’d either swing into action or keep his suspicions to himself
edit – changed my mind, I like the Mat = Prince of Ravens idea more
(sorry, I’m fickle like that)
@73 Cowin Fairheart was captured by Jain Farstrider and brought to the king’s justice. Found in TOM Glossary. Slayer is ( if I remember right) Lans brother who was thought to be dead. Cant find his name though.
Rand to Janduin, who learned to channel but was turned into a Red Veil when he went off to kill Sightblinder.
Rand meeting Demandred was my first thought, but I’m not thinking there would even be this much conversation. Zap! Bam!
Rand meeting the Prince of Ravens is my best guess.
Okay DAY 23:
Rand to Padan Fain
Rand to Lord Luc (his uncle), who isn’t his uncle… kinda.
Rand to Moridin
Rand to a 13×13’d channeler
Rand to Mazrim Taim, who isn’t and never has been Mazrim Taim. but not Demandred either, as we know for a fact that the Taimandred theory is a bust.
Rand to the Dark One, who is not the Dark One at all, but rather the creator who mankind trapped in an attempt to free themselves from a religiously moral lifestyle.
Rad to Mat upon beginning to realize he is the Prince of Ravens.
I can’t think of anything else that might be relevent.
This feels like incredulous and guilty. At the end of a hard interrogation or maybe at the end of a punishment. Judgment executed in error.
Running with that, it would be seeking forsaken in a new body and only afterwards realizing the innocence of the prisoner.
Any male forsaken in a new body would fit this idea.
@73 I found it the Slayer half is Isam which is Kin to Lan (not his brother) cousin maybe. He was the son of Breyan, wife of Lain Mandragoran. That’s from TGH.
@80 Man-o-blah
Rand wants to talk to Demandred. He wants to apologize to him for the way he treated him in the AoL, regardless of what has to happen after.
And I think he will do so humbly, and then the fight will procede, as Demandred cannot release that amount of wroth, not when it has been held for so long.
It can’t be Rand to Moridin…Rand already knows who he is.
I like Rand finding out the Mat is Tuon’s husband/The Prince of Ravens.
I could also see him finding out who Demandred is but I thought we really had not yet been introduced to who Demandred was masquerading as and I think this is indicating familiarity on Rand’s part.
Got to be Rand to Moridin when he finds out he’s really Shirley a cross-dressing drag queen with a lust for power and sequins.
Day 23….
Rand to Galad when he next meets Berelain and realizes who he is.
@86 Rand realized Moridin was Ishy in tGS, I think, in a dream sequence.
What about Lanfear. Rand never met her in her new body, and I assume they will need to meet again.
Okay, but who gets/has the “Dice” ter’angreal stolen from the tower in book two/three?
That has never been answered, and has always bothered me. The Chance twisting ter’angreal. Who is the luckiest DarkFriend or Forsaken alive.
Demandred, or Lady Shiane (Dagger chick from book one, Mili Skane) she just won’t die and manages to escape every situation.
@86… but not at weekends when he’s Shirley Knot! :)
@89 MisterM
If you are talking about day 23, uhmm… check your gender, or rather her gender.
“…him…”
I am leaning towards Rand to Mat (PoR). Just one sentence, but it only seems to convey shock, not shock and horror at a 13×13’d friend/acquaintence, nor shock and anger/fear from an enemy disguised as a friend.
It sounds abit like Rand to the DO……
But I’m going with Rand to Isam/Luc/Slayer.
PS. Just a couple unresolved things I lost track of and are bothering me:
-What happened to all the Ter’angreal Morraine gathered from Rhuidean? She and Lanny went through the door, the door melted, but what happened to everything else she took?
-What happened to the Legion of the Dragon? All the men who couldn’t channel and became the blue coated army. Where r these guys?
@94 I think that Moridin somehow got ahold of the Ter’angreal. That is how he has such a vast collection of them in TOM. Also where he got the dreamspikes.
Skyfoo @94 – Rand put all the *’greal Moiraine had carted up from Rhuidean into storage in Cairhien. So far as we know, they are still there.
The Legion of the Dragon were, IIRC, given to Bashere to train; as far as I know, they’re still part of Bashere’s troops.
@94 I have always suspected that the Legion of the Dragon has something to do with Demandred’s army. It would explain his and Mazrim Taim’s ‘familiarity’ with each other if Taim is collaborating with him by sending soldiers (especially after they are 13×13’d). It would also explain his quote that his ‘rule being secure’. What better advantage could there be (from an enemys pov) than to be someone your opponent least expects? Someone your opponent thinks is fighting for them, but in the end betrays.
schrodinger @69
Being “turned” via thirteen Myrddraal and thirteen channelers is very different than Compulsion. Nynaeve’s ability to unweave Compulsion comes with a price, remember that Kerb died when it was removed. She has also managed to heal taint madness (Naeff), which as far as we know was completely successful, but is still much different than being turned. That is not to say that she won’t do exactly as you suggest and “fix” being turned, just saying her skill with the other things doesn’t necessarily prepare her to deal with this one.
There has been a report that Logain and Taim have met together without animosity, so if true, would suggest that Logain was indeed turned. Most suspect the report of being inaccurate.
I did not previously like the idea that this fit any reaction Rand would have toward Mat. But I know that we haven’t seen Rand be informed of Mat’s marriage, and Mat never told him about his answers from the Aelfinn.
So Mat could come to Rand saying that he was going to have the Seanchan Prince of the Ravens try to convince the Empress that the Seanchan must ally with the rest of Team Light. Then Rand catches his smirk and says…
Legion of the Dragon are now part of Bashere’s army. They have the special uniforms with the side buttons & dragon on the front. They were used to claim Illian.
Terangreal were packaged up when they all left to follow the Shaido. I’m pretty sure Moiraine would have left instructions on them getting to Tar Valon after her tiff with Lanfear. As mentioned may be still in storage in Carhein, but possibly in TarValon. One plot thread with a loose end… we may never rafo if it’s not an integral part of the story.
“YOU’RE not him, are you?” I’m going with Rand to Matt, too.
Although I know he is not Demandred, I still think there is something fishy about Bashere that we have yet to learn. Does anyone remember Min’s ‘something dark’ in her viewing of him? That hasn’t manifested yet. It is hard to believe that he is a darkfriend, especially since he has been in ‘happy’ Rand’s presence and he would have been able to tell, but her viewing still is unanswered.
I was researching theories on that and I ran into one that got me thinking:
http://www.theoryland.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=5431
Maybe the ‘something dark’ around Bashere is not Bashere himself, but may have to deal with him unknowingly commanding darkfriends who will turn on him at the last battle. Many of the people in the Legion were sent by Taim when they tested false for channeling ability. Why would Taim do something to HELP Rand and the light at the last battle? And if he did, why would Moridin overlook this and praise him for his accomplishments?
I think Rand finding out about Mat would be something like this:
Rand prepares to talk to Fortuona, before they meet however she requests Prince of the Ravens to be present at the meeting as well, Rand gets confused as he doesn’t know who he is,
Option 1.
Mat makes a distasteful comment about being married or being a nobel or both, Rand looks at him and goes “Light burn me,” Rand said. “You are him!”
Option 2.
Mat makes a comment about how he hates that title or something similar suggesting that he knows who the Prince of Ravens is, and in return,
“I knew that title was going to come around to bite me.”
“Light burn me,” Rand said. “You’re not him, are you?”
then we hear Moiraine say “Ta’veran”
@@@@@ 96. Wetlandernw – and others.
I know the series pretty well and I don’t remember that cache of Ter’angrel beings stored at Cairhein. Can anyone get a book n chapter title on that?
Skyfoo @103 – As far as I know, they’ve never been mentioned in the books since Moiraine’s death (or very shortly thereafter). However, you’re not the first person to wonder, so we have this:
INTERVIEW: Jul 19th, 2005 TOR Questions of the Week Part III (Verbatim)
WEEK 3 QUESTION: After Moiraine fought Lanfear in Cairhien, what happened to the wagons full of ter’angreal and such that came out of the Aiel Waste? Are they just in some storeroom there? And what happened to Moiraine’s horse Aldieb?
ROBERT JORDAN: The ter’angreal and so forth that came from Rhuidean are still in Cairhien for the moment, warded by Rand so they aren’t accessible to anyone but him. Aldieb is in the stables at the Sun Palace.
@103. Skyfoo
I’m with you I’ve read this series over and over again for 20 + years and can’t remember that either.
(This will be a double-post, since the first one was flagged as spam due to the link. Well, it will show up eventually, but in the meantime, I wanted to answer this and speculate just a little.)
Skyfoo @103 – As far as I know, the wagonloads of *angreal haven’t been mentioned in the books since a few hours after Moiraine’s death. However, you’re not the first person to wonder about it, so we have this:
I would suggest that there is a very high probability that Rand will send an Asha’man with Elayne (if he doesn’t go himself) back to Cairhien to retrieve that cache for use during the Last Battle. He knows it’s there, and once he learns that Aviendha has the Talent to read ter’angreal… well, coupled with his own knowledge from the AOL, they should be able to outfit Team Light with some useful goodies. I can’t imagine that it would be left in Cairhien forever, but if Rand warded it so no one else could get to it, it has to still be there.
Day 22: Slayer has a fondness for Perrin as a hunter and competitor.
Day 23 : Rand to Matt, Moridin perhaps Logain..
@106: Thanks for the previous Memory posts.
It’ll be interesting to see how those *angreal get put to use..
VonDooby @107 – You’re welcome. :)
Yeah, I sure hope we see them in AMoL! If not, it would be such a total waste. So many Aiel went through so much to take all the *angreal they could to a safe place, to be ready when the Aes Sedai needed them for the Last Battle. To have them rediscovered and moved so close to the action, and then sit there in warded storage while Team Light fights without them… that would be really sad.
@108 – I agree!
@106. Wetlandernw. Wow! Serious good knowledge. Thank you. Yes, I think those objects will play a part at some point. Objects that were specifically mentioned like the balanced black spear and a crystal chair.
On that note, I think it’s likely there will be some twist or new info on the Seanchan Crystal Thrown. Maybe it will be an object of the power, like the chair from Rhuidean….now in Cairhien.
Also, on the quote from RJ, interesting that Aldieb is still in Cairhien. Probably Moirraine will reunite with her old ride.
Skyfoo – “Probably Moiraine will reunite with her old ride.” – I hope so! That
wouldwill be fun to see. :)FWIW, I use the theoryland interview database almost daily for questions like that. Terez & co. have done a phenomenal amount of work to record and tag every available interview, blog post, signing report, etc., so RJ’s thoughts and comments on a myriad of subjects are visible to us even though they didn’t make it into the books (yet). There are a few holdouts who insist that “if it’s not in the books, it might not be true!” but they are few and far between. I figure that RJ was perfectly capable of refusing to answer any question he chose, so that when he did answer, there’s no reason to take it for any less than concrete fact regarding his world. In fact, he told us pretty clearly that things stated in the books are subject to the opinion/belief of the character stating it, and that they are sometimes wrong… Lots of room for major debates that way!
Oh, and the encyclopaedia-wot is also an excellent resource for characters, items, brief chapter summaries, etc. Finding those two sites, plus the WOTFAQ, were what really fanned the flame and helped me sort out the WoT. Without them, I sure wouldn’t be here!
+1 for Rand to Mat. The questioning tone feels more like Rand’s exclamation in a comedic moment, or possibly an enfolding tragedy (Rand to Ingtar) but not shock or horror at some deception (Rand to Demnadred). Rand wouldn’t waste time with curses if it were too serious.
Rand to Janduin, who learned to channel but was turned into a Red Veil when he went off to kill Sightblinder.
Didn’t Slayer kill Janduin?
What about Lanfear. Rand never met her in her new body, and I assume they will need to meet again.
He already saw and recognized her in the dream at the end of ToM.
On that note, I think it’s likely there will be some twist or new info on the Seanchan Crystal Thrown. Maybe it will be an object of the power, like the chair from Rhuidean….now in Cairhien.
We already know that it is a ter’angreal that causes awe.
the last we saw of mat,moiraine and thom,they were planning to go
in different directions:mat to caemlyn,moiraine and thom to meet rand
at the field of merrilor.
bear in mind that thom knows everything about tuon and mat, he is
politically astute,so in my opinion,he will update rand about the prince
of ravens.
jack of shadows
Actually, they are all going to the same place, at least to start, since Grady will make the Gateway to retrieve them. And he is probably at the FOM. Mat will probably depart quickly for Caemlyn, since there are problems to be solved.
“YOU’RE not him, are you?”
I think this is Rand to Slayer… those who’ve read the AMoL prologue that’s been released will know that Slayer has been tasked with killing Rand. Slayer looks like Lan, Luc like Rand’s Mom…
DO
@116
Isam is Lan’s cousin. Slayer is the name given by the wolves to the composite of Isam & Luc. Luc is Rand’s uncle. Several people who have seen Isam have said that he looked like Lan, including Nynaeve in tel’aran’rhiod, but not quite enough to question that it was or wasn’t him (Lan). Several people who have seen Luc have said that he could be Rand’s uncle (which he is). Neither is strong enough to cause Rand to questioningly ask “You’re not him, are you?”.
A name nobody has suggested is King Roedran. We know that he has accepted the summons to Merrilor. If, as some have theorized, he was Demandred’s disguise persona, then at Rand’s first look at him he’ll know that either Roedran is a darkfriend, or it isn’t really the King. The tone and context of this question is important. Which is it:
“You’re not him, are you?”
“You’re not him, are you?”
“You’re not him, are you?”
The Demandred-as-Roedran would use the second, as Rand unmasks the forsaken. Of course, I have a little trouble thinking that Rand would waste time not balefiring him, and I’m not in the camp who believes that this is Demandred’s hiding place. But it could fit.
Shaidar Haran as DO?
Day 24:
“There were many good years. Good decades, good centuries. We believed we were living in paradise. Perhaps that was our downfall. We wanted our lives to be perfect, so we ignored imperfections. Problems were magnified through inattention, and war might have become inevitable if the Bore hadn’t ever been made.”
One of the Forsaken?
Day 24: I am really looking forward to long passages of Forsaken talking about the AOL. That would be so cool! :)
“There were many good years. Good decades, good centuries. We believed we were living in paradise. Perhaps that was our downfall. We wanted our lives to be perfect, so we ignored imperfections. Problems were magnified through inattention, and war might have become inevitable if the Bore hadn’t ever been made.”
-Demandred-
Lanfear/Mierin to Rand?
Day 24:
Rand, at FoM, talking to the assembled rulers of the world, explaining how the War of Shadow started?
I vote for a Rand pov. Very savvy of him to share his AOL knowledge in this observant way.
Ooo I like the theory of Rand talking to the FOM assembly, if only because it’s creepy but still informative. Might be trying to teach the leaders of the world to get along and accept the Dragon’s Peace.
3 more weeks, its like getting a tooth pulled every day. Oh the pain of another 3 weeks….
Demandred to Mazrim Taim
This sounds like Rand. I can’t see a Forsaken saying this (espeically not Cyndane, Moghedien, Demandred, or Hasalaam). The only other choice would be Moridin. This has to be Rand, as Moridin is looknig forward to nothingness, and he is a philosopher, so I see him observing about the future (nothingness), instead of the past (peace).
As the Sith say, “Peace is a lie”
“There were many good years. Good decades, good centuries. We believed
we were living in paradise. Perhaps that was our downfall. We wanted our
lives to be perfect, so we ignored imperfections. Problems were
magnified through inattention, and war might have become inevitable if
the Bore hadn’t ever been made.”
I’m thinking Rand to Egwene, as part of an explanation of why the seals need to be destroyed, so as to provide a clean slate for permanently re-sealing the bore.
I think this is my favourite memory so far. It gives us some insight into the AoL, and I’m hoping we get more of it in AMoL. Gotta be Rand, and likely at FoM to the gathered rulers, etc. Also, it gives some perspective on what life was like before the Bore, and that the people of the AoL might likely have been their own downfall had the Bore not been drilled. Hubris is always a means to that.
Lanfear waxing nostalgic over “The Good Old Days.” Sigh.
…or Moridin before he turns. Heh.
I can’t imagine a member of the Forsaken saying that anything was their “downfall.” That just doesn’t sound like one of them except, perhaps, Asmodean if he was still around. That leaves Rand with his intergration with Lews Therin.
…unless there’s somebody else on the side of Light that’s survived to this time??? (No way. Right?)
I’m thinking Lanfear. We know that she is being held by Moridin, and has reached out to Rand for help…right? Am I remembering right? damn horrible retention rate…lol. Anywayz, perhaps she is rescues by rand, severed from her black ties to the DO, and turns to team light, and is telling someone more about the AoL. Probably not actually…it prolly is Rand…dangit…lol. I wanna see something WHOLLY unexpected, such as a forsaken turning back to the light or something like that. finding redemption after 3000 yrs is just too awesome a thought…idk…I’ll quit now while you are just loling, rather than rofling. :)
One of the Forsaken (Lanfear?) in an extended reminiscence about the value of life in the Light before turning back to the Light to help the defeat of the DO in LB
Though I agree with the Rand at FOM idea, it also sounds epilogue-ish. It could be someone speaking/writing from the Fourth Age talking about the Third. The Third Age ends with the Bore being resealed, so I can see Rand (or someone with enough historical knowledge, but it seems more like Rand to me) leaving this as a warning that just because the Bore is closed and Evil is defeated, that doesn’t mean people don’t still have to be vigilant against complacency and ordinary human badness. Especially if Avi tells him her Wayforward vision, it seems like something he’d try to avert, as best he can.
This is driving me nuts…losing posts like crazy and not sure why.
Anyway and trying this again.
After reviewing the comments to date for Day 24 (can’t believe we are at 24 already???!!!), I do not believe this is Rand to the assembled rulers at FOM. I just don’t think he would use the term “We” even if he was waxing poetic from Lews Therin’s memories…although I acknowledge it’s a possibility.
More likely to my mind, this is either a Forsaken to Rand or a Forsaken to another Forsaken.
The remaing Forsaken are (I believe) Cyndane (Lanfear), Moghedien, Graendal, Demandred, and Moridin (Ishamael). I could see Moridin speaking like this to another Forsaken. I could also see either Demandred, Cyndane, or Moridin saying this to Rand. Maybe Graendal also. I doesn’t sound like Moghedien though.
Anyway, we find out….very soon now!
And I think this might be the best “memory” yet. Very intriguing.
My guess is Rand to Moiraine.
As others have said, it really doesn’t have the tone suitable to one of the Forsaken, unless someone has done a wholeheared 180, and… I still don’t think it fits. I also don’t think it fits the FoM address to all the monarchs; not many of them would be reassured by Rand referring to himself living in the AOL. It has to be someone he trusts with that knowledge, someone who accepts that he has all of LTT’s memories, that he is LTT in a way while still being fully Rand al’Thor. IMO, that limits the list considerably. Min, Cadsuane, Moiraine, Nynaeve, Perrin, Mat; possibly Egwene, Elayne, Aviendha, Lan. Not many others. I pick Moiraine because I think that would be the coolest setting.
I agree with those who say this is Rand. This is in line with what we’ve heard from Rand Sedai in ToM. Definitely one of the best memories thus far. 2 weeks!
Well, I guess on the WoT calendar it really is only two weeks…
I believe this has to be Rand explaining why the AOL ended the way it did and why there has to be a comprehensive Peace and a breaking of the seals
What if it’s Nakomi that is speaking?
Wetlander@139: I agree it’s Rand, and in an “intimate” conversation…not an address to the rulers at the FoM. Most rulers would just think he was crazy, and not find these observations reassuring. But those who know and trust who he is, would be very interested in this history lesson.
I do look forward to Rands conversation with Moraine. She will be amazed at him, and he will be most interested in her “adventure” with the Finns, and what she learned. It would be very cool if this were part of their conversation….
It could be Rand talking to Avienda too…if she shares her vision in the wayforward machine, he could be explaining the need for a lasting peace involving all parties, and the vigilance needed to see that it lasts.
My money is on Moridin to Rand. It will be interesting to see who said what and in what context once we actually get the book in our greedy little paws.
Maybe it’s a conversation with the Empress, may she live forever. Sorry if this has already been posted I just joined up and started glancing through. He still needs to convince her of an everlasting peace, more so than anyone else in the world right now.
Tektonica @144 – Oh, wouldn’t Verin have loved to be part of this “history lesson” too? ::sniff::
What is FOM?
Fields of Merrilor (?sp) where Rand is supposed to meet with Egwiene and the other rulers of the world before he breaks the seals.
FoM = Field of Merrilor
It is definetely with someone with AoL memories, but if you look closely to
“…and war might have become inevitable if the Bore hadn’t ever been made.” it sounds slightly like a justification for someone who doesn’t mind war. I am going with Demandred or Moridin for this one.
Mierin/Lanfear never spoke so philosofical. We know Elan Morin was a philosopher, Rand accused him with his logic turning him to dark and Demandred was the military mastermind of his time. I vote one of those two chatting with Rand.
This sounds like a fireside chat, so I doubt it’s Demandred, especially not to Rand. If it is a Forsaken, it would be Moridin, probably talking with Rand (likely in his dreams). But I really do think it is Rand talking. The Dragon has already begun talking as if he is Lews Therin by ToM, to Cadsuane, Min, Nynaeve, and in the prologue of AMoL with Perrin. This may be at FoM, but I doubt it is in his address to the monarchs of the world. It would likely make many of them uncomfortable/think Rand is crazy (which he is). It is likely Rand talking to a confidant, like Moiraine or Egwene
Adding to Ceku @152, I am pretty sure that most of the lightsiders always refer to “a hole” and patching “the hole” in the Dark One’s prison. I am pretty sure only Forsaken refer to it as the Bore.
I could be wrong on that though.
my guess is Rand vs Moridin too.
about Perrin earlier..isn’t he supposed to die and suffer in Seanchan, in the ToM? Or am i wrong on that? He’s talking to Tylee, i think…
Rand was talking too Tam, when he said “you’re not him”
Blocksmith @154 – It was generally referred to in the AOL as “the Bore” though we mostly have Forsaken POVs that remember it. However, in Rand’s WayBack trip, it was referred to by a common soldier as “the Bore.” LTT also referred to it that way, for example in LOC Chapter 11, when his thoughts intrude on Rand’s, “He had been so sure that he and the Hundred Companions could seal the Bore safely…” Rand also uses the term in his conversation with Herid Fel, in Chapter 18 of the same book.
taytay4christ @@@@@ 135:
Not LOLing at all. I’ve held the theory for quite awhile that this is just what will happen. I think it will be Moridin because he is the philosopher, the thinker. Moreover, the EotW began with who? Rand and Moridin. A perfect circle. Kinda like a Wheel. “Have you the Voice, stranger? It will soon be time for the Singing…”
This is absolutely Rand.
He has been expressing regret for the things which Lews Therin didn’t do well, so this fits with his recent mindset. I actually think this is him adreesing the assembled rulers, to give them an understanding that even with the best of everything; knowledge, technology, clean and more available saidar/saidin, they made mistakes and would have brought about troubles for the world, just because they were human and fallible.
As for the audience thinking him crazy, he has been admitting of late that he did suffer from madness, and that he has gone past it. He would speak to them of what nobody could know except Lews Therin or another Aes Sedai of that age, and prove his bona fides. They all know he is who he is, this shouldn’t be hard to accept.
Blocksmith,
Remember his visions in the crystal columns, he saw the Bore being drilled into the dark one’s prison. Lews Therin would call it the Bore.
Annnnd, bah. Hour of down network time and Wetlandernw gets in ahead of me with the same thought. I should have previewed one more time…
Memory #24
I personally think that it’s not a person from the 3rd age at all, I was thinking someone was listening to the Ter’angreal that reads books. Sort of like listening to an audiobook. Like someone said above looks like commentary.
taytay4christ @135
The female forsaken were not vulnerable to the taint on saidin as the males were, and the “black cords” are created by the dark one’s protection mechanism specifically for the men. So no “black ties” like that for Lanfear.
Man-o-Manetheran @157
I had long held the idea that Moridin would turn back to the Light, but while he is the philosopher, he is specifically nihilistic. He claims to be tired of the repeated turnings, and just wants it all to end. But, if not him, I don’t see another forsaken in a state to want or accept redemption.
@157 Moridin turning to the light (or staying neutral to say the least) is on my list of things to happen in the last book too. I think 3000 years of being the only one free of the bore might have swayed him a bit.
Thanks BetrayerofHope82 and Avox :)
I don’t believe this is Rand as he’s speaking about the inevitability of war.
I believe this is a pivotal point where we see a Forsaken forsake the DO and move toward the Light.
Moridin would be climatic and may break the Wheel of Time because Moridin is Rand’s counterpart, and just like when Rand (LTT) changes sides to the DO the Wheel of Time may be broken; so it would be true if Moridin changes sides to the Creator.
Lanfear wouldn’t be a good choice because she created the Bore, and would have spoken more possesively about the act. Also, this doesn’t sound like Lanfear’s wording at all. She was always madly jealous and they weren’t good years for her.
Moghedien wouldn’t be a good choice, either, because she would never wax philosophy. She’s greedy and too self intrested to speak on such a macro scale.
Greandal is a better choice so far. She does think about the world and how to effect it. However, she is one of the most notoriously evil of all the Forsaken. She has no desire to be Good or speak about past mistakes.
Demandred is the great unknown. He was very politically and academically active during the Age of Legends. This speech is one from a statesman, which fits Demandred perfectly.
Just an off the wall thought…..What if one of the forsaken as in maybe Ishmael/Moridin is somehow related to lews therin? or maybe one of the other forsaken….this could be a death conversation between a forsaken and rand
I think there might also be a chance that this will be the first paragraph you see in AMOL, before the prologue and after the Table of Contents. It might be one of those tidbits you get before the story starts or after it ends. Like Loials “The Dragon Reborn” in the beginning of TOM.
I don’t think it would be Moiraine. Perrin, like Mat, now knows that without Moiraine he would be dead. Moiraine was helping him before he knew she was helping him. Slayer being sarcastic, a possibility. Alanna, yep, that’s a good one, Seonid, Masuri, etc. also good. Possibily Egwene, and the quote cut-off before it was given away. …….
“Light burn me,” Rand said. “You’re not him, are you?”
I admit to a large amount of unbridled glee at this. Be’lal?(!) Hehehehe! I told you so! (Okay, so it ain’t proven, but it would seem to add weight to the Be’lTaim theory.)
@166 Be’lTaim sounds wonderful except for one small thing..are his eyes brown???
There’s also one small detail in the prologue that doesn’t exactly… fit with that particular theory.
C’mon peeps. This is Rand at Merrilor. Either to Moiraine or all the rulers.
There is a note of self-criticism and responsibility here. The Choosen are spoiled and greedy. They have no awereness of responsibility for the end of the AoL.
Forsaken talking to Rand. Bore = good for the world?
I think you are all wrong !
Here’s one more candidate for the “turning to the Light”: Slayer.
We’ve seen from the AMoL prologue that he’s got some sort of conscience (his reaction to the urchin in the Town) – we also believe that Luc was a Light-sider until he was ambushed by Isam (who was always a DF) – thus there’s something in the merged personality that could have a Memory of Light.
Lastly (and most importantly): Gitara Moroso apparently told Luc that he had to go to the Blight, that the fate of the Last Battle depended on it. This is the same Gitara that sent Tigraine on her path to bearing Rand.
So Slayer’s got something very important to do. Perhaps he does it for Team Black that just happens to also help Team Light (kills Fain?) Or perhaps he is the one to switch to the Light.
I know the ending, LTT wakes up and turns to llyena and says bloody hell that was the weirdest dream i’ve ever had………………
Sounds like another of Rand’s reminiscences on the Age of Legends.
Rand is talking to Cads and Min, who want to know more about the AoL to figure out how to reseal the Bore.
Who is Hasalaam?
@birgit
hessalam is the new and “improved” graendal,”without forgiveness”
in the old tongue,its from the prologue of a memory of light.
@173 – Too funny :)
My guess is that it is Rand addressing the leaders at the FOM, it seems like the logical answer. However, my heart wants me to believe that Moridin has decided to put aside his lust for power in light of all of the Forsaken dying, becoming slaves, becoming different genders, etc. and sees the good in Rand and his cause.
Sigh… One can dream…
@177
If I recall correctly, Ishamael/Moridin has very little lust for power. He’s more nihilistic and believes that it is impossible for any other outcome beside the DO’s victory, as well as believing that it will all end with his victory – he doesn’t buy into the other Forsaken’s views that they will rule after the DO is victorious.
Although I do see this as a possible philosophical rambling from him.
Day 25:
“Oh, blood and ashes, no!” Cadsuane said, spinning on them. “No, no, no.”
Sounds like she has been spending time with Mat. :)
“Oh, blood and ashes, no!” Cadsuane said, spinning on them. “No, no, no.”
Perhaps Casuane at Rand’s death? Or at a particularly bad decision by the Hall of the Tower during the discussions at FoM?
What is she spinning on?
My best guess is that this is her comment on her first teacup ride (building the ride is Rand’s final demand at FoM).
“Oh, blood and ashes, no!” Cadsuane said, spinning on them. “No, no, no.”
– Aes Sedai offering to play charades with Ashaman?
Spinning on what is the question. What could she possibly be ‘spinning‘ on?
Cadsuane to channelers when they first use the weave that “must not be used” ?
Spinning on her feet, obviously, toward a group of people she is talking to (“them”). My random guess: someone’s just suggested using balefire.
And I assume she’s spinning on her feet/heels, unless Mat’s invented cyborg prosthetics by now.
She got the ruby slippers, and someone is suggesting she take them off and give them to Mat.
Them can refer to inanimate objects (of the power).
Given the cover, I’d say that’s her response to Moiraine asking for her hair ornaments.
@166
Be’lal was balefired my Moiraine, he ain’t comming back. not until he gets spun out again, so not this age… Asmo, maybe, but he didn’t exactly go down while in the DO’s favor.
Order of Deaths Of forsaken:
Balthamel (Destroyed by the Enviromentalist party)
Aginore (Drowned whilst sipping from the well)
Be’lal (permadeath, balefire)
Ishmael (The sword that is not a sword, but still works like a sword)
Lanfear (Wagon Ho’ed (Pun!))
Rahvin (permadeath, balefire)
Asmodaen (Executed by Graendal, died in disfavor, might precluded his resurection)
Sammael (permadeath, Mashadar, the dark one will not touch his soul or what’s left of it)
Arangar (rebirth of Aginore, Death by darkfriendly fire, I double punned there)
Semihrage (permadeath, Balefire)
Osangar (rebirth of Bal’thamal, Balefire)
Mesanna (not dead but useless and unrebirthable as she would still be mind crushed)
Other forsaken status:
Mogidean (mindtrapped as punishment)
Graendal (distorted, but not mindtrapped, we think)
Cindain (Rebirth of Lanfear, Mindtrapped)
M’Hael (STS – Short timer syndrom… he’s not long for this world LOL)
Moridin (sitting around rubbing his philosopher’s stone)
Demandred (Really, why bother…)
Aran’gar was killed by Rand’s balefire at Natrin’s Barrow, but he/she was originally Balthamel.
Aginor was reborn as Osan’gar, and killed by Elza at the cleansing of Saiden
Bah – wasn’t really thinking of spinning on her heels. I guess it would be something that she just didn’t like (balefire or some such).
Perhaps this is also involved in Min’s (as of yet unfulfilled) viewing that she has to teach the Asha’man something they need to know but won’t like.
Hawk@189 – I don’t think we’re certain that Mesaana, if killed, can’t be reborn mentally healed in another body.
The closest information pertaining to Mesaana’s health and resurrection (according to the Theoryland database) and whether she’s permanetly out of commision has Brandon stating: “Nobody’s soul gets permanenly damaged in that way in the Wheel of Time. Whether the Dark One can recover her and transmigrate her soul or not is a RAFO.”
Mesaana may not be completely out of the story, yet.
Clearly day 25 is Cadsuane upset about something someone just said or did or some event that occurred/she was informed about.
It could be anything, but my guess is someone put too much honey in her tea. Or Egwene and friends suggested she marry Mattin Stepannos to cement ties to the White Tower.
Forkroot@@@@@172 Nice!
Rancho Unicorno @@@@@ 181 actually made me laugh out loud briefly, which rarely ever happens to me when reading something. What an unexpected picture to put in someones head :)
So on day 25: Understanding how Cadsuane would normally act when asked for/to do something, this response doesn’t seem to fit. It seems much more likely an event has already happened and Cadsuane is just finding out, and it is going to have a dire effect in the future. It could be followed by “we need to do something!” Or “what were you thinking, letting ______ go to _____ without _____!”
“Oh, blood and ashes, no!” – Read it not as bemoaning something that has happened, but as Cads voicing her opinion as she always does, straight out. “Oh, blood and ashes, no!”
I say she’s talking to the Sitters.
hawkido @189
Aran’gar was Balthamel restored, later posing as Halima in Salidar. S/he was balefired at Natrin’s Barrow in the most shameful display of beat-the-reader trickery ever concocted.
Osangar was Aginor restored, later posing as Corlan Dashiva, and was terminated with extreme prejudice by Elza’s circle using Callandor at the cleansing outside of Shadar Logoth. Not balefire, so he might have been once again re-usable. At least he died following orders this time, so not necessarily disfavored by the dark one, except for failure.
Asmodean, according to authorial canon, could not be restored because of “how and where” he was slain. This statement left speculation that he was pulled into tel’aran’rhiod before Graendal finished him off, or perhaps ala the Gholam, she dropped him into a skimming gateway. No body, very little channeling required, no structural damage as evidence. It has been said that the dark one cannot recover someone killed in the flesh in tel’aran’rhiod, just as he cannot recover one struck by balefire. Both involve temporal anomalies.
Graendal, you claim is “distorted”. I took it that Shaidar Haran killed her, and she was placed into an ugly body as part of her punishment. Not proven, but fits more closely with past changes of appearance.
Day 25. Hmm, much to speculate on that would bring such a strong reaction from Cadsuane. That she would repeat a word that way means that she is definitely affected by what she has just heard or seen.
@188
The only hair ornament worn by Moiraine in the cover image is her kesiera, not Caduane’s paralis-net.
Cad losing a game of dice to (or: from, of… i dont know..me no americano) Mat…
i am curious how it’s going to feel when the last page is turned on january 8th..
maybe we want to continu these pages as a kind of support group…
A’s and O’s dammit i even looked it up and got those 2 buggered… *SIGH* is it Friday yet?!?
@196 Freelancer
Yeah I got the A’s and O’s backwards…
but new Aginor got killed by Fire that was friendly fire from a dark friend… thus the Dark Friendly Fire… see it stacks so nicely.
OffTopic: spinning on the heels is easy; just cross your legs/feet before spinning from your hips. ;)
OnTopic:
It may be me, but I seem to recall having only read Mat use ‘Blood and Bloody Ashes’. Could be some general WoT cussing, but I always connect it to him.
Could this be said in a meeting where Mat delivers a truce proposal between the Seanchan and Rand’s/Egwene’s forces, that includes a status quo on Seanchan keeping their da’mane? I could picture Mat using these words in order to convince those he is talking to in order to make them see common sense, and Cadsuane throwing the same cussing back at him telling him she disagrees…
EDIT: Blood and Bloody Ashes… I got 2-hunny…
Fiddler @200 – No, it’s general WoT cussing. Doing a search just in TEotW, so far I found Tam, Lan, Thom, Perrin, Rand and Elyas using exactly that phrase. Mat uses it more than any other single person, but Perrin and Rand both used it quite a bit. I think Mat is also the one we most often see embelishing it, a la “bloody and bloody ashes,” but Uno also uses that particular permutation in TGH. In TDR, Min and Egwene both use “blood and ashes,” and Egwene (in the same scene) also uses “blood and bloody ashes.”
I’d say it’s fairly generalized; it’s just that for most people it takes greater provocation than for Mat. :)
Oh, yeah. On that subject – IMO, someone has just suggested doing something terminally stupid. Gotta be pretty bad to make Cadsuane cuss at them, and repeat herself, though. It’s also possible that someone has just brought her word of someone having done something terminally stupid, but I think it’s more likely the former.
Best guess? Someone has suggested a way to stop Rand from carrying out his plans. Second best: she just found out that Rand, Moiraine and Nynaeve left for Shayol Ghul without telling her.
@202. Wetlandernw – agreed, but raise the stakes. I’m thinking this could be moments before Caddy gets taken out. We know MoL is full of battles, and it’s a good bet Caddy goes down (but I hope not!)
I’m hoping Cads leads a strike at the Black Tower. Who better handle men who can channel?!
On the quote – remember how much effort (and bitchiness) she put into teaching Rand manners. Even when the fit hits the shan, Cads keeps her calm. That’s part of her status and control of the situation and other people. Weaker people freak out, and then look to her for stregnth/guidance/command/Kickassedness.
If Caddy is swearing….things are bad….real bad. Like SNAFU/hell fire/blaze of glory bad.
Last note – try actually speaking the curse “blood and ashes.” Put it in a sentece, get a feel for how it sounds when you say and hear it. It’s a really dark and violent utterance…………..
hawkido@189
Actually Lanfear was killed by Moridin (in Finnland.) It was the easiest way to get her out of there – bump her off and let the DO grab her soul and put it in a new body. Presto… Cyndane!
Skyfoo @203 – Right you are – it’s one of the things I like about Cadsuane. The woman just doesn’t lose her cool for much of anything, which is really irritating if you’re Rand-going-mad. (It’s also, I think, one of the things that make so many readers dislike her. She does things her way, and trying to rattle her just makes you look stupid – which makes people mad when it’s My Boy Rand trying to rattle her and looking foolish instead.)
So yes – it’s got to be something truly stupendous to get this much reaction from her. At the same time, I don’t think it’s quite earth-destroying. Not sure I can articulate why – she’s emphatic, but for some reason it just sounds to me like she’s expressing extreme disagreement with someone’s completely assinine plan or suggestion…
Well, I guess we’ll see in a few weeks.
“Oh,HELL, No,” Cadsuane said spinning on them. “NO,No,no.”
I like the hall of the tower thing, “Hey Cadsuane, Do you want to be the new Amerlyin?
What would Cadsuane say to that?
I still can’t wait to see the meeting between Egwene and Cadsuane!
That would be almost as good as Rands reaction when Morraine shows up!!!
Spinning could refer to channeling a weave. It’s an AOL term, but we don’t know who the POV is from. I think she’s just reacting to a statement she vehemently disagrees with, but it’s another read on the line.
Further clarification: I agree that she’s probably spinning on her heels to address a discussion behind her, and I think the sentence doesn’t work if spinning means channeling.
I also think my phone doesn’t want to cooperate with the comment field.
Wetlandernw @@@@@ 205:
Yes, now that the world has not come to an end! Not that I ever doubted it. The Mayan’s carved their calendar in stone – a finite object. They had to stop when they ran out of room! Big Wheel keeps on turnin’…
@210
Belief and order give strength, right? So clearly the sheer stubborn determinationt of WoT fans that the world will not end before we all read AMoL kept the world strong. :)
German TV has some “end of the world live” shows at midnight. Of course it doesn’t make sense that the Maya calender ends on German time, but they probably didn’t think of that.
Finally we have enough memories to reconstruct whole scenes:
“It is a simple thing, to stop a man’s heart,” Cadsuane said, arms folded.
“Enough talk. You will bed me now.
It is one of the three things which I will require of you. Your payment, to me, in exchange for my life.”
“Oh, blood and ashes, no!” Cadsuane said, spinning on them. “No, no, no.”
oh lmao avox
@213 Good one!! This is getting better and better the more “info” we have!
;D
Day 26:
Uno’s topknot danced as he continued to blaspheme.
Clearly, Uno is having a good day. Probably fighting.
@196 Freelancer
I dunno, but Moiraine has something on her ears that looks dissimilar from her kesiera.
@ALL
Are you guys seriously still wondering about the “spinning on them” expression? At first I thought you were all participating in some massive joke. I think “spinning on them” can just be replaced with “spinning on someone” in this case, and would mean turning to someone suddenly, probably in shock and/or surprise and/or anger in this case.
@218
The posters here are all WoT fans, who are known for parsing, re-parsing, and over-parsing every line of WoT text. If you doubt it, see any old, pre-reveal thread on the subject of “Who killed Asmodean?”
“Uno’s topknot danced as he continued to blaspheme.”
OK, that was just put in to make us snort!!
Uno! It will be a pleasure. I also want to meet Lord Agelmar again, please?
But will we get information on how our world (with prideful Mercedes cars and Queen Elisabeth and intercontinental missiles) ties into the WoT?
Just a thought on Cads comment. Cads has just told the team of Aes Sedai that she’s gathered, that they are going to deal with the Black Tower canker. The team is talking amongst themselves about how to go about it. Someone suggests bonding the Ashaman in order to gain better control and Cads decides that this is an assinine approach and …
Or a second thought.. The AS behind her are trying to decide how best to deal with Rand and someone suggests a circle of 13…
Day 26
Nynaeve must be near..she always brought him to cursing!
Don’t remember him cursing as he fought.
“Uno’s topknot danced as he continued to blaspheme.”
Must be at the LB, and Nynaeve tells him to go ahead and let fly, instead of just every other sentence. (“Perhaps if you cursed only occasionally?” She sighed. “Maybe once every other sentence?” The man smiled at her so gratefully that she wanted to throw up her hands in exasperation.”) It’s the end of the world, as far as they’re concerned…may as well let him speak however he wants.
Either that, or it’s just Uno being Uno, and ignoring anyone else’s sensibilities.
I’m just happy that we’re guaranteed to see Uno again. He’s one of those minor characters that I really enjoy.
We have to face up to reality: Even with another hefty book, there’s only so much space left, and plenty of major plot points to resolve. This means that we won’t get closure on some of the minor characters.
LK@221
I’m betting the answer is “no”. You might hold out hope for the forthcoming WoT encyclopedia — but even then there is the possibility that this is one of the things that RJ explicitly specified to leave unresolved … just guessing.
I know that Uno was never one of Masema’s followers, but if Uno is blaspheming, then perhaps he’s speaking out against Rand as the Dragon Reborn?
tenkuu @218
Agreed! I was about to write the same, but you beat me to it. Can’t believe that 217 comments in, no-one had realised that (well, I’d not read it). I think everyone’s getting a little bit tied-up trying to fathom out what the book is going to entail.
avox @@@@@ 213:
Clearly you are on to something! Add today’s quote and it just gets better:
227@@@@@ blakeyuk & 219@@@@@Tamyrlin79
I know, I just… couldn’t believe there honestly wasn’t a single other soul than me, on this huge board, who even thought of that explanation rather than all the crazy other ones, lol.
Think we’ve seen the last of Osangar/Arangar’s participants. Seem to recall when they were transmogrificated (or whatever!) that it was their last opportunity.
And Mesana is just collateral damage. Shadar Haran seemed to implicate that she was a worthless resource now when punishing Graendal for her dreamspike screwup.
Yes, darkfriendly fire… liked that one! :)
Uno’s topknot danced as he continued to blaspheme.
I guess that makes him a new Hero of the Horn. Makes me happy!
Edit:
Damn. Confused Uno and Ingtar! It’s the Topknot!
Hmmm, what would be considered blasphemy in WoT. Saying the Empress (might She live forever) can channel to an average Seanchan? Saying Mat is married to her and the Prince of Ravens to the average unknowing Seanchan. In LB’s preview, wasn’t there one “Oh I forgot they didn’t know that” moment?
Could be Uno with The Band meeting a Seanchan guy and gossiping about Mat.
“Peaches!” Rand said, aghast. Everyone knew those were poisonous.
my guess is that rand is stating his new favorite food….
I’ve always found it quite amusing that peaches — peaches!! — of all things are poisonous in WoT. Gives new meaning to statements like peach fuzz for a guy attempting to grow a beard or that a girl’s skin was the color of peaches or some such.
As for the quote — somebody’s offering him some; the question is in what context?
Day 27…a little early!
“Peaches!” Rand said, aghast. Everyone knew those were poisonous.
Well apparently there are peaches in someones’ or his food or tea!
Peaches! Didn’t RJ say that peaches aren’t actually poisonous? Everyone just thinks they are cause of the pits, which are actually poisonous.
We know from a side comment by one of the Chosen … er, Forsaken … that peaches were once edible, but evolved toxicity after the Breaking (or perhaps were made toxic during the Breaking by some use of the Power). Cyndane or Moridin could have mentioned eating peaches, or even offered Rand an old-fashioned peach. But there’s a problem – wouldn’t Rand Sedai remember having eaten peaches as Lews Therin?
@218 & 227
You can’t be serious. There honestly wasn’t a single other soul who DIDN’T know and understand that application of the phrase. But any phrase which is capable of multiple applications will be evaluated for the additional possibilities, so the obvious and mundane usage wasn’t necessary to state. As usual, tenkuu, you presume what you should not.
tifosi @230
Aran’gar and Osan’gar were first met by Shaidar Haran after their restoration (transmigration), and they were both warned to be grateful that they were alive again, regardless of the body selected for each. The only other time the two of them are in company with anyone else from Team Shadow there is no such “last chance” discussion about them, as they were currently in place, Osan’gar as Dashiva with Rand, and Aran’gar as Halima with Egwene. Since then, both have again died, Aran’gar to very strong balefire, no chance of recovery, Dashiva to a massive fireball from Callandor at the Cleansing. There is nothing to say that Aginor/Osan’gar/Dashiva could not be restored yet again.
MisterM @232
There’s the salient point about this memory. Whoever is the POV is someone who would call Uno’s language blaspheming. Nynaeve never gave it that twist, only calling is cursing or swearing. I cannot fathom Uno going to the Shadow, and I cannot fathom him going against Rand. So, the POV character seems unlikely to be a Team Light member, unless it is a Seanchan. I vote for Leilwin, and they are sparring.
RE: Peaches
In one blog thread dedicated to answering reader questions, Robert Jordan answered as follows:
Later, in an interview with Harriet McDougal Rigney, she answered thus:
All due respect to the author’s widow, the conclusion left by her thought, that someone would mistakenly assume the entire fruit poisonous if poisoned by its pit, does not match RJ’s more direct statement that he made peaches poisonous on purpose as a distinction to our present world. It also denies a bit from the text, in Winter’s Heart, ch10, after the “attack” on Elayne which Doilan Mellar foiled, to gain acceptance:
If the rest of the peach were not also (though less) poisonous, the above statement by Nynaeve would be invalid.
shajara @237
I find no such statement anywhere in the text, if you have one, please provide.
My initial thought on this memory is that Rand has just learned that someone died by eating peaches. His statement would be tantamount to concluding that the death was intentional, whether suicide or murder.
Alvia is helping Rand die by giving him peaches (later, after 3-day Nynaeve will cure his death)
“to live you must die” was a true future given to him in the Tear archway
Peaches. Rand then proceeds to demonstrate that for the Dragon, even “poisonous” peaches hold no threat.
FYI – When the tomato was first introduced to Europe, they were feared poisoness. They, like the potato, are in the belladonna family, and belladonna, the Europeans knew, WAS poisoness.
@238 sure there’s a passage later on where Moridin intimates that Osangar & Arangar are toast the next time round…
still either way I doubt very much we’ll see Osangar’s soul in this turning of the wheel if ever. Don’t think it was ever a plot technique by RJ to ‘continually reincarnate’ but a good one to get a second chance & give the story a decent twist.
I’m curious if this peaches snippet is what caused this comment from Leigh in the spoiler free review:
“*falls over laughing* Oh my God, that is hilarious. And somewhere a certain someone is saying SO THERE, IT WAS RELEVANT, WASN’T IT. Touché, Team Jordan. Touché.”
Sounds more to me like someone is suggesting that people are so desperate they’ve been eating them, and Rand’s surprised about it.
I agree with meowwl, That was my first thought.
Rands not suprised, but shocked, since they new they were poisenous.
I need speel check.
Poisonous
new = Knew :-))
Day 27;
Maybe Elayne’s trying out baby names!
She says, ‘How about Peaches?’ and Daddy Rand exclaims……
;)
Someone rand knows is dead because the person ate peaches..there is something more to it but i can’t think of something.. Bashere’s death?
Rand eats peaches to heal the wounds in his side. His surprise is because while they are poisonous for everything else, they are specially designed by the Light to heal wounds of the shadow.
Freelancer – I am sure there’s a line that goes something like: “In this world, peaches were poisonous.” It had to be from the viewpoint of someone from the Age of Legends, who remembered a different situation. But I cannot remember now which character or which book it’s in, sorry.
28 has to be Egwene or Rand
“But this . . . this isn’t about blacksmithing, Perrin . . .” “Of course it is,” Perrin said. How could Rand not see that?
they are talking about breaking the seals.
No, Its not about the seals, its about forging an army/nation/culture together, how the pieces of various nations and groups will fit together.
@246, That made me laugh!
@248, hmm, you may be on to something. I hadn’t though of anything like that.
Haven’t posted for a few days, so here’s some of my thoughts.
Day 28: Oh yeah, breaking the seals. What else would it be about?
I’m thinking that day 22 was Egwene. She dad ask for him to dance with her on Sunday way back when. And even though she has her duties, I think she does still look at Perrin as a friend if nothing else. Perrin might demand an explination from her, knowing what she is now, and after being very confused from seeing her in the world of dreams.
Can’t wait! Can’t wait!
I’ll go with breaking the seals. Perrin has this special newly made up Power-Wrought Hammer, dontcha know.
Blacksmithing isn’t about breaking things. It’s about making things with heat and force..sounds like making new seals.
But that’s confusing, because Rand talks like he wants to kill the DO so no seals would be needed.
@255 – Rand has no intention of killing the DarkOne. Remember that he now has all of LTT’s memories. So now everyone should go back and read the Prologue of the first book TEOTW and read where LTT recalls his actions with the 100 Companions and he thinks to himself:
“because of my pride, I had believed that men could match the Creator, could mend what the Creator had made and they had broken. In my pride he had believed.”
Nor can he match the DarkOne.
So … It takes more than Men. It takes men and women linked together but not only linked but also bonded to each other so that “the three are as one”
So …
Hello people around. Would someone post the quotes from this week since I stopped (:( – `sad`) receiving emails?
Here ya go tonka
@257
Day 22 “Why are you helping me?” Perrin demanded.
“I’m fond of you, Perrin.”
Day 23 “Light burn me,” Rand said. “You’re not him, are you?”
Day 24 “There were many good years. Good decades, good centuries. We believed we were living in paradise. Perhaps that was our downfall. We wanted our lives to be perfect, so we ignored imperfections. Problems were magnified through inattention, and war might have become inevitable if the Bore hadn’t ever been made.”
Day 25 “Oh, blood and ashes, no!” Cadsuane said, spinning on them. “No, no, no.”
Day 26 Uno’s topknot danced as he continued to blaspheme.
Day 27 “Peaches!” Rand said, aghast. Everyone knew those were poisonous.
Day 28 “But this . . . this isn’t about blacksmithing, Perrin . . .”
“Of course it is,” Perrin said. How could Rand not see that?
a sticky situation with all important men gathered round in FoM. Perrin compares the situation with a blackdmiths puzzle..
@@@@@Allonz-y!
Thank you!
#28:
“But this . . . this isn’t about blacksmithing, Perrin . . .”
“Of course it is,” Perrin said. How could Rand not see that?
Rand and Perrin discussion on how to recreate seal to the dark one’s prison. Perrin still have to save Rand’s life one more time according to the prophecy.. So might be related?
Could be about creating power-forged weapons. Rand believes it is about the power. Perrin believes it is about the blacksmithing.
Creating a new seal was always the plan. The blacksmith is the obvious one to forge, or create. The flaw in the last on may very well have been overlooking the dream world portion of said seal. Perrin may very well have some part to play in the actual seal creation within the dream world.
@256 moon dancer: hmmm, perhaps you’re on to something. It would give credence to the previous quote about “pass me his bond.” Maybe that’s Moiraine or Nynaeve speaking before heading out to the LB.
But… I also like the idea of Perrin and the seals!
Cannot wait!!
In chapter 1 of aMoL Perin and Rand are discussing breaking the seals. They seem in agreement. So I don’t think this has anythin gto do with the seals.
I have no idea.
The last 3 memories – peaches, swearing, blacksmithing…..could be anything…..
Want that figgen book!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
@several, who insist that Rand is only intending to replace the Seals, or who have claimed that his idea of destroying the DO was part of Dark Rand, and now that he’s integrated LTT’s memories he knows better: Chapter 1, AMoL says
He’s still considering it, and LTT never did.
shajara @237, Freelancer @238:
The quote shajara is thinking of is this:
Not as definitive as shajara presented, but certainly indicative.
Re: “blaspheme”; Freelancer @238:
I could also see this being Galad’s POV, as “blaspheme” is a word a Whitecloak would use (we see “blasphemy” from Pedron Niall in TDR).
Re: peaches, in a Demandred POVs from Winter’s Heart, he notes that “Peaches were poisonous, here and now.” There’s no further thought about peaches specifically – in context, he’s comparing Cyndane to a peach, and thinks it a more apt simile than a plum due to the poison. It could be assumed to mean that he either knew or knew of a time when they weren’t poisonous.
Freelancer – thanks. :) My dentist thanks you, too.
I’m not sure quite what I think about the Uno snippet. By RJ’s usage of “blasphemy,” I would probably agree that the POV is not a Randlander – therefore, most likely Seanchan, or less likely Sharran. In a quick search through the books, most people who have used the term have been DFs (considering use of the DO’s name to be blasphemy); Whitecloaks (who consider anything they don’t agree with to be blasphemy); and Masema (who considers use of the OP by anyone but Rand, or calling Rand by name, or assorted other stuff to be blasphemy). There are a few other references – Rand and Verin both call the writing on the walls of the Fal Dara dungeons blasphemy, and Nynaeve thinks of at least one of Masema’s declarations as blasphemy. Given Uno’s preferred language, and that no one has ever called it “blasphemy” before, I’d have to agree with you.
However… I’m not entirely sure how Brandon will use it. He didn’t use it at all in TGS or ToM, and there are a few examples of him using different terms, or using terms a little differently, than RJ did. And he hasn’t written Uno yet…
I guess my conclusion is that you’ve got a pretty good argument, but I’m not hard over on it because of the differences in writing styles. However, having done all that research, I’m more convinced than I was when I first read your comment!
shajara @249
A word or phrase lookup can find you the chapter of each occurance using Ideal Seek. There is no clear statement that peaches changed from being safe to poisonous. Which brings us to…
bad_platypus @268
I’d call even indicative too strong a word. Given the context, Demandred considering a proper description of Cyndane:
After first thinking of a plum, he corrects his thought, because it only fits the cursory appearance of Cyndane. A real look at her shows how dangerous she is, so no, not a plum, a peach. The phrase “here and now” is suggestive that such might not always have been true, but no more than that. The previous posit was that they had become toxic via the Breaking, and there is nothing to corroborate that. I continue to refer to RJ’s comments that having peaches be poisonous was a conscious decision on his part for making the world distinct from our own. Now, since I believe we can all agree that the WoT world is our own at a different point of the Wheel’s turning, then certainly peaches would have to change somewhere along the line. But no clear indications in the text of when, or more importantly, of how.
Regarding Uno, Galad and he met, in Samara, and Galad has heard his language in action. As for what Whitecloak’s consider blasphemy, it isn’t about one’s use of rough language at all, rather it is about anyone touching what should only be touched by the Creator, namely saidar or saidin. To them, channeling is blaspheming. To Masema, it was anything he thinks isn’t a proper following of the Dragon Reborn, but he’s long gone.
Cadsuane Vs. the new Amyrlin and her Sitters, having explained her long and convenient absences from the Tower as retirement, finds it formalized with her as the as the first official volunteer for Egwene’s plan to forswear the Three Oaths and retire into the Kin.
Uno is prone to bad language. The only people to perceive anything as “blasphemy” however would be Masema’s people or the White Cloaks.
When Rand finds out what Siuan’s been feeding Bela.
Perrin’s experience with making the first power-forged weapon in a long time comes into play. Even cuendillar is converted from metal so this could apply to the seals.
IIRC the seals were cuendillar. That means they were made from iron and changed ala Egwene’s process. A craftsmen rather than a blacksmith would be used in creating them just as the Rebel AS had done. Not sure how they were used in the ‘sealing’ sense, as we’ve never seen that obviously but the actual objects were simply cuendillar. Numerous characters refered to it as such while remarking that it was impossible for them to be so easily damaged.
I think Perrin is possibly using blacksmithing as a metaphor as he often does. It makes sense of the world for him. Obviously not so much to Rand…
I disagree. When speaking of an object created, Rand would most likely defer to Perrin’s knowledge and not argue semantics. It is more likely that the subject is a concept which Perrin referred to metaphorically in connection with smithing, to clarify a point of his argument. Rand doesn’t recognize any valid connection to the craft for the particular concept, and denies the metaphor.
Rand has already brought a blacksmithing connection to his thinking about the seals, he wouldn’t even remotely deny that connection in a later discussion of that topic. This is more likely about people, or perhaps battle.
I seem to remember Perrin mentioning something like that sometimes the best thing to do with a work that’s been ruined is to discard it and start over with new material….
Perrin thinks of the old seals as work ruined beyond repair, that need to be destroyed, in order to be made anew. To him, it’s a simple blacksmithing problem.
@268, 270 – Thanks, Bad Platypus! If peaches had not been poisonous in the past, Demandred wouldn’t think “here and now”; you wouldn’t remark, if transported to the future of this world, “Hemlock was poisonous, here and now.” If the comment has just been exposition designed to let us know that peaches had always been poisonous in the world he knew, he’d have just said “Peaches were poisonous.” It’s implied that he noticed a change.
@270 FreeLancer – first you state that you “continue to refer to RJ’s comments that having peaches be poisonous was a conscious decision on his part for making the world distinct from our own”. Then you go off the deep end by saying ” Now, since I believe we can all agree that the WoT world is our own at a different point of the Wheel’s turning”
These two statements don’t jive, especially considering the millions of “mirror worlds” that are similar yet differ in some way.
I think we can all agree that the WoT world is a mirror world slightly differenent than our own, and that is why RJ made peaches poisoness to show it was a mirror world.
MountainDancer @276 – Except that RJ explicitly stated, “The intention is that the world of the books is our world at a different time. The conceit is that time is a wheel, so if you go far enough into our future or into our past, you come to the time in the books. Because of that, they have legends that originate in our time, and we have legends that originate in theirs.” (paraphrased by the reporter)
Since Freelancer is well aware of this statement, as well as the one in which RJ said, “peaches being poisonous in the world of tWoT is one of the things I did to make the world different,” (verbatim) you might want to rethink your supposition that he is going off the deep end by referencing both.
RJ made it quite clear that he intended his world to be (as fantasy!) both past and future for our world, but that some things would change with the turning of the Wheel. Peaches being poisonous is an indicator that things are not entirely the same all the way around the Wheel; we can infer, from that, that there may be some other things that won’t be exactly the same either. It’s a way of changing our expectations while allowing us to work in a familiar framework.
MountainDancer
Or, given that both statements occurred in the same commentary, you could extrapolate what I presume most readers to recognize, that the more expansive description of my reference to RJ’s statement would be:
“…continue to refer to RJ’s comments that having peaches be poisonous was a conscious decision on his part for making the world of those ages distinct from our own.”
I didn’t think it necessary to so elaborate at the time, since it seemed to me to be encapsulated by the commentary taken as a whole. If I make back-to-back statements that 1) That world is different than ours, and 2) That world is ours at a different point of the Wheel’s turning, there isn’t too much room for misinterpretation that the difference is due to which age is being perceived.
Wetlandernw has the rest of it, as usual.
And, I do not agree with your last statement. He meant this world to be the same globe inhabited by the same iteration of the characters about whom we read in the story. Peaches being poisonous then, and not now, is an artifact of unknowable amounts of time passing as the ages come and pass.
My original entry into this topic was to refute that there was a specific statement regarding the toxicity of peaches changing, or why. The Demandred quote is indeed suggestive, and I don’t argue that, only that it isn’t more than suggestive, certainly not definitive. My further argument was that RJ’s answers about peaches, taken together with the text, provides reasonable grounds to conclude that the fruit’s attribute did indeed change over time. Nothing more.
RE: “Why are you helping me?” Perrin demanded. “I’m fond of you, Perrin.”
Lanfear–I know she’s still alive somewhere as is Moiraine:)
“Peaches!” Rand said, aghast. Everyone knew those were poisonous.
Are peaches edible in Seanchan and Tuon is offering him some?
“But this . . . this isn’t about blacksmithing, Perrin . . .” “Of course it is,” Perrin said. How could Rand not see that?
Perrin could be talking about stabilizing the Pattern.